Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[blindmewithscience]

Alright, I have high hopes for this game!
VOTE: TellTaleHeart for referencing Poe. He wrote about death! Is obvious mafia!

[blindmewithscience]

Wow, I missed a ton...

Alright, so just to make sure that I'm understanding this all:
The arguments that I'm seeing ATM:
Wgeurts voted Wisdom supposedly to get us out of RVS. Now, he unvoted after receiving some pressure, but his weird behavior sparked lots of debate. Is suspected by Mathdino and Newbie (anyone I missed?)
Also, VictorDeAngelo appeared to question Mathdino's desire for a meta.
Is there anything else that I'm missing with everything that's been going on?

[blindmewithscience]

so, yeah you should ignore meta in general. Even the wiki says 9 times out of 10 it's wrong. Meta is the worst thing to use as a case.

Uh, isn't this at odds with your own argument for yourself?

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

You're basically saying that Meta is bad, after you tell others to look at your meta (which according to you, is "the worst thing to use as a case".

And if you're critical of meta, why didn't you say anything when people were asking for Newbie's meta? This isn't logical at all.

I'm seeing a lot of inconsistency, and so I'm going to
VOTE: wgeurts

only

to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations, as IMO, your statements responding to him previously were pretty weak. (Also, what I've posted about him is pretty small in comparison with the larger arguments).

Also, when you make posts, PLEASE make them more than one-line posts (or ones that are irrelevant). They make reading through a ton harder to do.

[blindmewithscience]

So blindmescience, do you think Wgeurtes is scum? Why do you care about him creating a good defence?

Well, I wouldn't say that he's scum, just acting a lot scummier than the rest of town.
But that second question is really weird. In return, why

wouldn't

I care about it? He's done a ton of extremely scummy stuff (explicitly mason-fished, contradictions, weird voting, etc.). He is very untrustworthy right now. If he is town, I don't want to make a mislynch. I want him to post a defense that can convince me to trust him. I basically want to make sure that if we do end up lynching wgeurts, that we're lynching scum.

But this post is really suspicious:

Another point to make before you mis lynch me is if I make a bad defence in your eyes it wouldn't necciserlily mean I'm scum. This is my... 6th game now?
3 of which ongoing.

It wouldn't be the bad defense that makes you scum, it's your past actions. To make me not want to lynch you, post a good defense. And... what's the point of those last two sentences? How does your amount of experience affect the actions that you've done so far in this game?

[blindmewithscience]

Do you honestly think scum would be so blatant about mason pushing? I can't believe even newbscum would do this.

@wgeurts, if Mason's claim now, they would be picked off by scum because scum don't want conftowns around who would not be lynched, because as the number of people in the game narrows, they have a harder time hiding among the crowd and would be easier to find.

In general, I can see where the wgeurts being furstrated town is coming from, and I'm agreeing with the whole Catch-22 situation that has been pointed out by Finn. But there's everything else that he's done, including the mason fishing. And so with regards to the first part of this, mafia are unpredictable. We can't say what they will or won't do. But we can always ask wgeurts.

@wgeurts: Please give your reasoning for your repeated, explicit masonfishing. Also, could you explain the inconsistencies shown before?

Now, I really don't like this.

It slightly troubled me when Silver defended me in 238 but I didn't give it much thought. You might actually have a point about her.

[...]

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

Note the enormous bashing of mathdino's suspicion. While I agree that it's a relatively weak argument, this incredibly charged response was a big overreaction IMO. At the end the day, I think all he was asking for was more, actual contributions, and you're attacking him for pointing out that you haven't posted anything of value. I'm not quite sure how much this affects my opinions of you, Silver.

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, catch 22 was first pointed out by TTH. Just thought that I'd correct that for posterity.

[blindmewithscience]

I don't appreciate what I interpret as buddying from blindme.

Hah, wouldn't call it "buddying", man. Note that I did call your argument weak in my last main post, and was criticizing Silver's response.


@Wisdom: You seem wholeheartedly convinced in wgeurts' scumminess. I'd say wait until he posts again with content that can help us make a decision. I don't want to "jump on your wagon" until I'm sure that it's not going to break underneath me and have me fall to my death .

So there's two sides to this town forming. There's mathdino and Wisdom, who are both suspicious of wgeurts and Silver. (VDA, based on his last post, appears to be part of this group). And then there's Finn, Silver, Newbie, TTH, Malakittens, and wgeurts, who believe that wgeurts' play was simply that of a frustrated townie (and are somewhat critical of Wisdom). Not_Mafia seems to be part of this group based on 274. And then acryon, who's been V/LA for this whole thing. (Also the Undertaker, because he's a no-show). At the moment, I'm leaning towards the former group, as wgeurts has been incredibly suspicious, but I want more info before completely deciding (aka when wgeurts responds to stuff). Including me, that's a 7-4 split, with 2 abstaining. Although this is all just a really big simplification of everything that's happened so far.

[blindmewithscience]

On mobile, will post as well as I can.
The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

And silver is still a mystery. The arguments against her are much, much stronger than her (pretty weak) defenses. 347 was an interesting one to me. At first, it seemed like a really obvious frustrated townie post: but the recent arguments made against her (the AtE is strong with this one, and the actual defense isn't that good). I'm slowly being convinced by the arguments against her. So in order to prevent my conversion, I'd like to see a good defense by silver.

Also, my mind is pretty dead right now. Could someone explain post 385 to me? Silver wolf, are you just accepting the arguments against you or something else?

[blindmewithscience]

The wagon on Wisdom (IIRC) is mainly because he criticized wgeurts (who many think is town) and because of his weird immediate voting for wgeurts after he received from heat for not voting him. Please correct me if I'm wrong. This wagon is largely based on the argument that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. As I said before, I'm leaning towards this assumption being correct but I want more information. And so I'm basically against this wagon-the premise is wrong, and the conclusion is wrong (AKA Wisdom isn't scum). Of course, this entire thing is all based on assuming that wgeurts and Wisdom are on opposite sides. TL;DR: I think wisdom leans because I think wgeurts leans scum.

Can you please clarify this for me? You are leaning towards the assumption being correct that wgeurts is a frustrated townie but you also think he leans scum? Which one is it? I agree that wgeurts needs to get back in here and answer for himself.

Wow, a major typo. I meant to say that I believe that the assumption made by the pro-wgeurts side is INCORRECT, as I've stated before-I don't think that wgeurts is a frustrated townie. But I want more info directly from wgeurts. My bad. I'm blaming technology
In summary of this whole thing: Because the argument against Wisdom is based on wgeurts being town (which I believe to be incorrect), it follows that Wisdom is town.

You also said this in 310

But also, I like the point that Silver made about Wisdom only voted after wgeurts' argument. Again, not sure how much this affects my opinion of Silver, but the Wisdom case is getting stronger.

But now you think the wagon and reasoning behind it is wrong? What made you change your mind?

I believe that the Wisdom wagon is "more incorrect" than the wgeurts wagon. I understand the scumread for both wgeurts and Wisdom, though IMO the case against wgeurts is much stronger. And because IMO a Wisdom/wgreurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely, and I'm more suspicious of wgeurts, it follows that Wisdom must be town. I'd say that this transition started to happen for me around 325, where I began to realize the town divisions. With these town divisions came the (now obvious) realization that wgeurts and Wisdom were likely opposites, leading to my present conclusions, as I've stated above. Hope this all makes sense.

Also, I liked your 325 at first but in addition to your other posts, I can see you do a lot of recapping of events that have occurred in your posts. You are playing things safe and fencesitting on a lot of issues. Your admonishment of me for how I handled mathdino's case in 310 really was not adding anything to the conversation either. It seemed somewhat opportunistic also.

[...]

What more do you need to hear from me specifically regarding a good defense that I have not already said?

I'm fencesitting because I WANT MORE INFO. I will not make a final decision until I feel that I'm informed enough to make the correct decision. And I think that I've only been fencesitting on Wisdom/wgeurts, which is dependent on more posts. And if it came down to the wire, I would vote wgeurts (for now).
About 310: I think I can see where you're coming from about being opportunistic. I think at the time, I was trying to share the information that I had recently got from you that was relevant to the discussion. But how is it not adding to the conversation? I'm pointing out how your criticism of mathdino's argument didn't respond fittingly to mathdino's post, which no one had said before.
And for a defense:

Hm, Silver, how about a full response (as in a lot more than "Sounds good to me") to acryon's arguments, as pointed out by math in 384, as you haven't responded to those yet. If you do this, I think I'll be satisfied.

[blindmewithscience]

I just read post 310 and 311 by blindmewithscience (which I will abbreviate to "blind" unless he has any objections). He's not leaving me with a positive impression like he is with Mathdino, apparently. What I extract from the post is that he has a scumread on Wisdom, wgeurts, and Silver Wolf because he points out plenty of things he doesn't like about all of them, but his vote remains on wgeurts. It's easy to point out disjointed things you don't like about someone else's posting, but what's the conclusion at the end of it and do they fit together somehow to make a cohesive picture? I don't see one yet, so I question how genuine these thoughts are.

My vote stands on wgeurts for the same reason that I originally put it on--for pressure. Still no posts from him for the past 2 days, with no response at all to teh questions directly asked of him. My vote is also kept on wgeurts because his case is stronger than Wisdom's and Silver's. As the scummiest person IMO, he's still the one I need to vote for.
And for your conclusion statement, I think that my 387 and 406 show those (as I don't think you've gotten to that point yet in your reading )

I'm back. Before I go on, I want to say that the whole "mason hunting" argument is specious at best. If wgeurts really wanted to out the masons, there are a lot more obviously effective methods to do so, one of which to claim mason himself in order to elicit a counterclaim from a real mason.

While other masonfishing methods may be more effective, it still doesn't explain why he was doing this at all. A terrible attempt at masonfishing is still an attempt, and so I suspect him for that.

[blindmewithscience]

Alright then.
I believe that wgeurts leans scum because:

Main Points

1. Masonfishing. While I agree with your point in you previous post that he

could

be someone who believes that masonfishing was somehow good, this point doesn't work for me because wgeurts was explicitly told not to masonfish, such as in 187, before pushing a masonclaim in 288. Your argument in favor of him isn't working well one for me.
2. Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.
Other, weaker points (including some made by other players)
3. His weird voting. The quite rapid unvoting of himself (which I agree he should have done), his voting near the beginning of the game.
4. Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games (check his post history).
I want a response to 1 and 2 (and maybe 4) when (if?) returns.


Now for my entire conclusion:
We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

[blindmewithscience]

If you want really, really basic information about what's happened so far, check out my 163 and 325, and mathdinos summary of reads in 386. But this just gives a REALLY general overview. Please formulate your own opinions on everything and read everything.
Welcome to the game

[blindmewithscience]

Still on mobile, still can't link easily.
Main summary of wgeurts points is in my 445.
Summary of Silver points are 360.

BTW, silver: Please respond DIRECTLY to the arguments pointed out by math in 384. Not satisfied with your 447, as it didn't directly respond to the bolder posts. Also note that acryon says that 247 should instead have been 257.

Summary of wisdom points: to me the case is mainly because of his criticism of wgeurts. Please correct me if wrong.

[blindmewithscience]

I don't like you, Constantine.

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

That isn't how mafia works, child. It is you who must prove he's scum.
The problem is that many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do.
Lord only knows this isn't the truth.
[...]

I will submit, I haven't read wisdom's ISO, and as a patient servant of our lord, I have no trouble doing that. I just haven't found anything strikingly odd from what I have read.

1. NO. That is exactly how mafia works. You don't prove ONLY scum or ONLY town. To me, everyone is a null. You then MUST PROVE LOGICALLY how they lean scum or town. Just No. Don't default to everyone being a townie. This is completely naive. If you can't prove something, then the argument is invalid.
2. You haven't ISO'd him, and yet you're nearly certain of his towniness? If you haven't read, then you're as good as dead. PLease go back and do a careful (NOT SKIM) read of a lot of the past.

I'm also not a big fan of "democratic" mafia. The kingdom of god is a theocracy, people just get in the way of justice.
The chances of actually catching scum through...
A) Cooperation
B) Authority Figure's
... are about 100% guaranteed.

I dont want other people's opinions, because unless what you're saying is very thoughtful, it is just clutter which confuses decision making.

I would like to lynch Vincent or Mathdino today, and am not to eager to look for alternatives. Let's just get the job done. With that said, if you haven't clarified your RFV (Reason for vote) yet, now is the time to do so.

1. You don't want other people's opinions? WHAT? Legitimately. Everyone is part of this game. Everyone has something to say. We are a GROUP making a decision, NOT playing "follow this one guy".
2. Not eager to look for alternatives? You haven't given any reasons. I will not be convinced to change my reads simply because you have said you've put your faith in God. This is absolutely terrible IMO (not trying to be derogatory, but this is what it is...)

I usually don't explain my reads or thoughts until many questions have been asked. Most people on this site suck at playing mafia, or let their ego's drive their decision making.
Everyone's so sure that they know who scum is, that no one's willing to cooperate. I would like to cooperate, and I would like to win this game. Please help me do that.
If you want my statement, you're going to need to give it some time. Lord know's we have plenty of it. I always like seeing what others think of my vote

before

I tell them why I chose it. It really defeats the purpose to feed reasoning scum can easily refute. Encouraging people to think for themselves goes a mile longer than me telling them why to follow my lead.
With that said,

why do you think I might be scum reading him

?
God grace's to you, and hopefully you understand my position better.

If you ask people what they think your reasoning is, it makes us think that you don't have any reasoning at all. This isn't helping your goal of "wanting to win this game", unless you're scum. And "feeding reasoning scum can easily refute?" If anyone can eassily refute something, then it's not a good argument. We need to see your argument so that we can say if it's valid.

If anything, you've given even less reasoning than the person you replaced. You're not really helping town. You are now the better candidate to lynch.
VOTE: St Constantine the Hermit
I'll unvote if you can start posting actual content with actual reasons and actual arguments, and stop posting this ton of nonsense.

Constatine:

Are there records of your previous games anywhere? You say you've played before. If so, give a link please. I'd like more info on you.
Sorry if this is harsh, but it's what looks like the truth to me. And Sorry for textwall and rant.

[blindmewithscience]

He's an alt that made the account to do the whole roleplay schtick. He's not helping the town but a PL really doesn't help us here either.

And he's following the old site meta of everyone being insanely arrogant and telling everyone to sheep them. He's not scum for it.

o.o
Didn't know that this was a site meta. Gah, so bad. But I would GREATLY APPRECIATE if you stopped. Seriously, please.

[blindmewithscience]

I'm as confused as mathdino.

TTH or Wisdom:

Please explain... especially 676...

[blindmewithscience]

Shit. Never mind. BMWS, don't ask.

????
Maybe I understand what's happening as well? Not really sure though. Also confused why everyone is rereading the thread now. Oh, well, guess I'm going to as well, see if there's anything I missed. Someone needs to explain this to me at some point. This whole thing as just been super confusing to me. Might just be too tired to be seeing anything...

[blindmewithscience]

Constantine

, thoughts on MalaKittens, please.

Mala's very hard to read. I haven't town read her yet, but a couple times she's dipped to mild scum.
She plays like someone I know before who was often my scumbuddy, and that's the only reason I did at times scum read her.

Could you point out these places where exactly this happened, and explain your reasoning for them?

-Dodges his original wgeurts vote, cognitive dissonance with trying to believe it's still a viable wagon by inventing new reasoning for it 'oh this is scummy, yeah wgeurts is scum'. Spoiler alert: wgeurts isn't scum.

I'm really confused lost on the wgeurts is town argument. What more is there to it besides the belief that he is a frustrated townie (and is voting of himself)?

@any-pro-wgeurts, please explain the case to me.

And, still no response to the arguments that have been placed against him (see my 445).

[blindmewithscience]

On phone right now. Have a lot to say about what's happened so far, I'll try to post that when I get to a computer.
@Wisdom are replacements really null? Isn't it important to also important to consider who they're replacing?
Right now, the only lynches that I can see actually going through are riddleton, Constantine, and Victor (but only if he gets back). All other wagons have lost most momentum. I didn't get a good impression of Constantine, so I would be most willing to go along with that (though I'm trying to go through his posts again with an unbiased view. Would rather have bear any lynch than no lynch, though. I'm going to have to go over everything again though, and look at all the cases to see who's the best candidate. I'll try to post again within the next three hours, after rereading.

[blindmewithscience]

That hasn't changed at all since I started

this joke of a game.

Wow, thanks...

Now for a giant post:

Spoiler: Constantine posts

Could you point out these places where exactly this happened, and explain your reasoning for them?

I didn't mention any particular post, so what is it exactly you want me to show you?

I'm really confused lost on the wgeurts is town argument

Considering you're new to mafia, it is understandable. It has nothing to do with being Pro-Wguert's, as he looks 100% town to any person who's been playing this game over a month.

So, you say that there's "times where she dipped to scum". But yet you can't point out where these occur? Then this case is baseless.
And apparently, "anyone playing for over a month" does not include Wisdom and Mathdino. That point is pure BS.

Posts 719 and 720 I don't like. IMO, finding the scum is completely dependent on how the game has been going. Going to agree with others that scumtells are variable. Also, it's funny how you say in 719 that "Absence on this forum while continuing to participate in other games " isn't a scumtell while in the next post you say that Lurking is a scumtell. Clarification, please?

Spoiler: Riddleton and his stuff, including the Victor case

The fence sitters should vote Victor already and not make excuses about V/LA.

I'm going to agree with others that this is pretty unfair to him. Now, he may have shown some scummy stuff in your opinion, but let's just give him some time. And the deadline is approximately 7am PST/10am EST. I'm pretty sure that

someone

will be awake then (also, mod said that deadline may be extended...)
And interesting how in 749 there's no response at all to points a and b brought up by mathdino. Riddleton, why was this so? Did you agree with these points, or skip over them, or something else? In addition, in the same post, Riddleton states that wgeurts has never done anything scummy. I'm agreeing with what wisdom says in 751.
(As a sidenote, so many late night posts...)
From 795 "I'm obviously not going to be a NK target so the only option is a PL. " Riddleton, please explain
804 is really interesting. Wisdom makes a really good point. And I didn't see a Riddleton defense...

Spoiler: Commentary on what's happened since about 775ish...

I said about because I'm really not sure where a semi-transition happened.
New divisions seem to be forming. The old ones aren’t relevant, as those lynches won’t happen the way this game’s been going.
Constantine and Riddleton are the main lynch candidates for today. I'm much more comfortable with a Constantine lynch. I originally voted him when he joined, but never unvoted, and I'm more comfortable with that wagon than Riddleton's (although there's also the connection to SW to consider). I'm also unsure about Constantine's prior experience and how much that exactly relates to this game. There's all this weird stuff about him acting like he has all of this experience with mafia, and he knows exactly how everyone is supposed to always act and how this is exactly how we find scum and what's a scumtell and what's not, etc.

@constantine

: you said you other account is inactive. But could you still link a game or two for us? I'd seriously like to read it during the night phase. And exactly how much experience do you have? (approx # of games?)

Back to my main topic of town divisions. I feel kinda bad that I'm here after all this stuff happened, and all of the cases against either has already been said. Don't feel like I can contribute much to either, except for my own opinions on this all.
(Please correct me if any of this is wrong)
Constantine-town: Riddleton (kinda), Constantine (duh), TTH
Constantine-scum: Math, acryon, wisdom, BMWS (kinda)
And I'm not sure the leans of everyone else.

Riddleton-town: TTH, RIddleton,
Riddleton-scum: acryon and wisdom (I think...), Math, Newbie, Constantine
And I know for a fact that I could go either way on this wagon.
The riddleton wagon, IMO, could be done by the deadline (especially if extended)

Sorry if this is all disorganized and stuff. I tried my best...
And what does 832 even mean? Not_mafia, is that supposed to be you agreeing w/ Newbie on that point?

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, didn't mean to submit that yet. Still finishing up that 3rd part. Will repost just that section in a few.

[blindmewithscience]

Spoiler: Commentary on what's happened since about 775ish, now completed

I said about because I'm really not sure where a semi-transition happened.
New divisions seem to be forming. The old ones aren’t relevant, as those lynches won’t happen the way this game’s been going.
Constantine and Riddleton are the main lynch candidates for today. I'm much more comfortable with a Constantine lynch. I originally voted him when he joined, but never unvoted, and I'm more comfortable with that wagon than Riddleton's (although there's also the connection to SW to consider). I'm also unsure about Constantine's prior experience and how much that exactly relates to this game. There's all this weird stuff about him acting like he has all of this experience with mafia, and he knows exactly how everyone is supposed to always act and how this is exactly how we find scum and what's a scumtell and what's not, etc.

@constantine

: you said you other account is inactive. But could you still link a game or two for us? I'd seriously like to read it during the night phase. And exactly how much experience do you have? (approx # of games?)

Back to my main topic of town divisions. I feel kinda bad that I'm here after all this stuff happened, and all of the cases against either has already been said. Don't feel like I can contribute much to either, except for my own opinions on this all.
(Please correct me if any of this is wrong)
Constantine-town: Riddleton (kinda), Constantine (duh), TTH
Constantine-scum: Math, acryon, wisdom, BMWS (kinda)
And I'm not sure the leans of everyone else.
Constantine's case seems to be stemming from saying one thing, acting another (I feel that it might have to do with his playstyle just a bit, especially his acting like a "King of Mafia", per se).

Riddleton-town: TTH, RIddleton,
Riddleton-scum: acryon and wisdom (I think...), Math, Newbie, Constantine
And I know for a fact that I could go either way on this wagon.
The riddleton wagon, IMO, could be done by the deadline (especially if extended). Its case seems to be coming from the turnaround about Constantine. Didn't catch it (or don't remember) if there was any more to it. If so, please tell me. Might just be my latenight confusion again

[blindmewithscience]

On mobile, sorry for no links.
Uh, math, check your 824. Don't you say that Riddle responded to the scumslip in "the townie at way possible"? Was the best defense that he could give not enough to save him? Please elaborate on this.

[blindmewithscience]

"Townie at" should be towniest. Autocorrect.

[blindmewithscience]

Ok.
So Consantines's at L-3, with Math, Wisdom, BMWS, acryon, voting him.
Those that aren't voting him are: Newbie, Mala, Riddleton, Not_Mafia, TTH, VDA, wgeurts, Finnlaw, and Constantine.
People that could end up voting him I think are TTH, maybe VDA, and I'm not sure about anyone else.
Also note that VDA is at L-1. A hammer is a possibility here, and he says(?) that he could come on before the deadline. I'd rather not be a part of this scenario though.
And at some point in the future (perhaps day 2), I'd like some more discussion regarding 845 and 854. INteresting opinions.

[blindmewithscience]

If riddleton switches to my wagon, I'm going to blow a casket. Lynching myself doesn't reveal any new information that I didn't already know. For one, that I'm town.
I'm not a mason, so if people are trying to lynch me because of my assertions on who the other masons were, good riddance.

Yeah, go ahead and say that. THe thing is,

we

don't know your alignment. We want that information. And we can only get the absolute truth with a lynch. You saying your alignment is completely useless, as you'll always say that you're town, no matter what you are (except mason, which you

clearly

are not).

[blindmewithscience]

Shoot, I think that's lynch...

[blindmewithscience]

Can you give just a really quick explanation as to your vote?

[blindmewithscience]

Gah. Curious, why didn't you wait a bit more? We still had 12ish hours, and no Victor defense posts...

[blindmewithscience]

THe things is, you voted way too early... No defense from victor, and we were trying to go for a Constantine lynch. Could have at least consulted.

[blindmewithscience]

I think we could, especially after these actions at teh end of town...

[blindmewithscience]

At the end of Day 1. Sorry.

[blindmewithscience]

Well, 3/3 of the incredibly current active players seem to agree.

[blindmewithscience]

Tell me why he's scum, right now. I want reasoning.

[blindmewithscience]

But the stalling didn't matter, since we still had people that could hammer at end of day. Him stalling and eventually saying something is way better than a quickhammer.

[blindmewithscience]

I guess i can believe that... But does it really matter, since we could still lynch him even closer towards the end of the day?

[blindmewithscience]

So Newbie, you think that he would never post his reads anyways?

[blindmewithscience]

Newbie, why didn't you post that observation regarding MAth's constantinte case and your comparison to Riddle's VDA case sometime earlier? Just curious why that observation/opinion wasn't relevant then.

[blindmewithscience]

My lynch pool is this:

{Wisdom, BMWS, Riddleton, Wgegurts}

In that order.

Mala, any reasoning?

Welcome to the game, borkjerfkin.

You guys are posting wayyyy to fast. I step away for 5 minutes and a whole nother page

[blindmewithscience]

That which is policy lynch is scummy lynch.

Then you agree that policy voting me is scummy. Lol.

I'm pretty sure mathdino was referencing this post by you.

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

Thy Second Commandment in the Ten Commandments of Constantine's Apocrypha
- That which is policy lynch, is scummy lynch

[blindmewithscience]

Why in the world would you all post SEVEN PAGES of stuff in under 24 hours. You've got to be kidding me. Reading through the entire thing now.
And right off the bat, I don't like Constantine's certainty about his lynch in the post above this.

[blindmewithscience]

And finally caught up. Please don't post 4 pages while I'm sleeping next time

Lol. Says the guy who made 30 posts in a row.

Constantine, the only reasoning you've given for acryon is in 965, and that's pretty much been disproven. I said I didn't like your overconfidence in my last post because in the past, you've just given confidence with little to no reasoning, and assumed that that occured here as well. And what do you know, that's the case here.

I don't like post 1127 by NM. He pulled one thing out of Wisdom's 30 posts, and says that he's tunneling and his case is terrible rather than pointing out specific things in the case that he didn't like. Also, from his entire 14 posts, I'm not seeing anything that's been that helpful to us.

The VD lynch sucked, nobody who was voting him ever gave any good reason for voting Victor. I hated it and wanted actual scum lynched.

Really confused by this last sentence. Is he turning out to be scum not make it lynching actual scum? (Also, it's a weird coincidence that you use the exact same phrasing that MD found in his meta of SW, finding "actual scum")

If they both agree to it, I'd be up for lynching Wisdom and Mala in succession if the first lynch flips town or claims mason; their meta record of correctly reading each other is pretty undeniable. Just need Mala to convince me this isn't TvT.

Paging

blindmewithscience

,

borkjerfkin

, and

acryon

for their thoughts on this after Mala posts.

I'm not seeing wisdom-scum from MD's posts, like others have. I really didn't like the quickhammer at first, but i guess her reasoning had some sense. I'm also really confused about how a scumread of acryon came about. Could someone explain?

Plus work and plus his read is bullshit and he admits that has has read me wrong in the past as town but still would likely flat out go hey hey I thought she was town after I tunneled her so I can still read her which I find highly annoying. He did incorrectly read me and read me right after I claimed, so yes

hence bullshit because he can't tell town mala from scum mala

Wat. In post 1090, he pointed out the 3 instances of him reading you correctly as scum, and one game where he misread you

at first

, and then states that he's correctly townread you every single other game. Is this the truth or not? Because if it is, I'm going to say that the bolded part is pure BS.

[blindmewithscience]

I'm not seeing wisdom-scum from MD's posts, like others have. I really didn't like the quickhammer at first, but i guess her reasoning had some sense. I'm also really confused about how a scumread of acryon came about. Could someone explain?

Rewording of this first sentence:
I agree with other people that I don't see wisdom-scum from MD's posts.

[blindmewithscience]

Ok guys, I'm phone posting now, but WTF. 150 posts in a few hours. You guys are crazy. I'll try to commebt on what all happened, but a longer post might not come until later.

[blindmewithscience]

Ok, I'm going to be

V/LA until maybe Saturday

. Really sorry bout this, but a ton of stuff going on in RL. I'll try to post when I can, but really stressed out right now . When I can, I'm going to ISO Wisdom, try to form my own opinions on him. Right now he's a null for me, because my main reason for saying he was town in D1 was because I thoughht wgeurts was scum (now that's not the case). So I'm unsure on him right now.
Ok.... A mason claim. Scum can't do a counterclaim, as they'd need 3 poeple. Would individually like each to explicitly verify this, just to make sure.

[blindmewithscience]

Wait, so if you 3 are the masons, could someone explain the "specific setup-related thing" that happened starting with post 666? I thought that that was mason-related but it doesn't seem to be...

[blindmewithscience]

Constantine, you legit make no sense. If you think Riddleton is town, then HE SHOULD NOT BE IN YOUR LYNCH POOL AT ALL. Then, the chance of hitting scum in YOUR REMAINING LYNCHPOOL goes UP. That's how that should work. Then you're left with wanting to lynch Math, Newbie, and Acryon if I'm reading your posts correctly?
And what specifically makes Wisdom town? Now don't say gut; Mafia's not a feeling game. It's about making evidence and cases, and gut isn't a valid reason to decide who or who not to lynch.

Hmm... speaking of wisdom... I'm remembering him saying that he caught Mala's softclaim during D1 twilight. What made his malapush valid then? (I'm going to make sure that Wisdom did actually say that, just to make sure I'm not messing poeple up.

[blindmewithscience]

You know what, I'm really really sorry for this Mala, but I think this is necessary. If you want to lynch me tomorrow for pointing this out, go ahead.

Nah even If he flips town you'd never get a lynch on me

Either you didn't ISO Mala when I told you to, or you're scum dragging this out.

Yes, I saw this. Especially given this happened in twilight; why can't this be a VT drawing the NK? Why can't it be scum faking said vt (or faking a mason)?

Whoops, found him saying that he did see it, along with a response to my question...

[blindmewithscience]

Can't believe that I completely missed a day...
Wgeurts, what's your reasoning for you opinion on Constantine?
i will also
VOTE: Constantine

THIS PUT'S HIM AT L-1, GUYS. Let's not lynch without getting his reads, just in case...

Also, was anything of importance discussed in the mason QT, Bork?

[blindmewithscience]

BMWS, uh, do whatever it is you do.

Uh, sure...
I'll just go ahead and ISO Newbie.

[blindmewithscience]

How does Bork have less information? Pls explain.
If I'm deciding between you and acryon , I'd vote aceyon for now. I'll go through Both of you though, trying to find scum without confbias.

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, fell asleep while looking through acryon's ISO
I'm a bit busy ATM, but got through about 2/3 of it all. I'll just point out a few things right now, and try to make a larger post later.
556: IF he were scum, then it would be really weird for him to directly point out his two scumbuddies, especially at this point in the game. For me, this leans him null-town.
560: Says that scum-Wisdom leading the wgeurts lynch is highly unlikely. I semi-agreed with this at the time, though it obviosuly turned out to be incorrect. This brings him back to null.
1221: Thinks Wisdom is misguided town, Constantine is scum, but with valid reasons (and both ended up incorrect).
I'll try to post something more substantial later.

Responding to 1840:
I think you're arguing that I'm scum for sitting back with my posts, buddying up with both scum and some things that Wis & VDA said in reference to me.
1. I really think that that's a kind of personality thing for me, sitting back on things and not really making black and white opinions. I'm not exactly an "aggressive" guy.
For the second, I'm going to point to what you said about my 310 and 325: Was it wrong for me to comment on the

main topic

at the time? And VDA and Wisdom weren't the only people talking about those wagons, or on these wagons IIRC. Basically everyone in the game was discussing that. I don't see this as buddying.
3. Eh, can't really make any comment about this. They said what they said about me, but we can never completely know their intent.
I'll try to comment some more on acryon's posts later.

[blindmewithscience]

I'm phone posting now, will be home in around two hours. Will make larger post then. For now:
http://www.artofproblemsolving.com/Foru ... &start=120
Only other mafia game I've participated in. I replace in on page 7. Not that good of a game IMO.
Right now I'm trying to reevaluate my reads. Math has been reading town for me all game, but I'm going to go through his ISO from a neutral standpoint, and look at his interactions. Could be mafia hiding in plain sight. I'll do the same with Newvie later.

[blindmewithscience]

Gah. I really don't know what to do now.
I'm leaning null-town on acryon, as stated earlier. I don't want to lynch him ATM.
I've been townreading MD all game. This last interaction was really weird, though, and I am now completely confused on him.
With Newbie: I tried going through my own ISO to figure out what my reads were on Newbie throughout the game, but found nothing o.o
And so because of Newbie and MD, I went back to some key points in the game, and compared each of their play to see who could have had more scum motivation for things/who acted more scummy.
After 676 (around the area where TTH thought Wisdom was mason), both of MD and Newbie quickly said that they thoguht they understood and reread it from that standpoint. Literally no important difference here.
Towards the end of D1, Newbie voted VDA while MD was trying to create a Constantine lynch. While Newbie's vote turned out to be right and MD's was wrong, I was greatly in favor of Constantine's lynch at the time (I fully admit hating on his playstyle in this game, and that def. influenced my opinions). I took a look at the reasons newbie gave for voting him (in 944-note that she gave this full list only in twilight), and to me it mostly made sense, but this was weird: "Riddleton's case elaborated on it further and his other points were good as well. After that, I noticed that it seemed some people were throwing out other names (riddleton and Constantine for example) to get away from the VD lynch. That further cemented my suspicion." Kinda confused right now.

During twilight, 939 MD commented that Newbie could have been bussing VDA. Newbie responds in 944. Night soon falls. And if I'm not blind(with.... SCIENCE!! ), MD did not comment on Newbie bussing after D2 began. This could be MD trying to implicate Newbie for a lynch he knew was successful, or Newbie or MD just scumhunting. Please tell me if something just went completely over my head that I missed.

Basically, what I found: nothing to lean me either way...

There has to be something. But I'm getting tired. I'm going to look some more tomorrow, when I have a clear head and (I' think?) a free afternoon. I'll probably end up looking at the time around the wgeurts self vote, when the town spent over 150 posts in a few hours about masons and such, and these past 100ish posts again with the bork-MD thing.

Gah, I hope we don't get to day 5. We have 9 days to figure out who to lynch today. But I'd like to be confident in our lynch before then.

[blindmewithscience]

BMWS, I want your lynch order. I'll sacrifice myself if it turns out I'm just gonna get lynched in LyLo anyway, and if I agree on the person you're planning to lynch if I die.

Hmm, I really don't feel like I can give a good response to this question. If you die today, then my lynchlist tomorrow is Newbie, acryon, me. And if newbie dies today, it's you in place of newbie tomorrow. I'm still trying to determine who I want to lynch today though. In my eyes, you and Newbie are basically equally scummy ATM, and I don't want to make a final decision yet.
My post in a nutshell: My lynch order is

MD=Newbie

>acryon>me.

[blindmewithscience]

what is intrinsically weird about this?

It's essentially the same thing constantine was saying: people were trying to build counterwagons to vic.

I don't see why there being counterwagons led to greater suspicion... Please explain if you do see the connection.

[blindmewithscience]

Gah, this game. I'm really not sure if we'll make the right decisions.
MD: just to be abundantly clear: you are COMPLETELY fine with lynching you today so long as you are guarantees a Newbie lynch tomorrow?
Brok: how strong is your townread on acryon?(at least, I think thats your read..)
Newbie: has your lynch order changed? How willing are you for lybching MD?
Acryon: whenever you get back, please give your thoughts and lynch order.

So I went over the interactions since the modkills, everyone's cases and defenses, etc.
Acryon went from voting me to voting MD, because of Borks case.Newbie made a case against me, and her vote is still on me. Has the most situation changed for you, Newbie?
And then this last page is making me really torn. My townread on acryon is just stronger than on Newbie or MD, so I just want to lynch them both.

Suppose MD gets lynched today and is town. We're left with Me, newbie and acryon. Right now, I would vote Newvie for sure. It would take a case from newbie to convince me to vote the other way. I want to make an informed decision about this potential case, though. I guess what I'm getting at is NEWBIE: If you want to survive D5, please post a case against acryon before the deadline for D4, so that we can have the whole input of town on it, and time to think about it.

[blindmewithscience]

Forgot to add that after reading that section again, my general reads of everyone hasn't changed since my last post.

[blindmewithscience]

BMWS, you're forgetting that Newbie is scumreading you and if she wants to survive D5 is probably going to try and get acryon to lynch you.
I doubt you're going to be the arbiter here. This isn't an ideal world.

Didn't forget about that. Newbie hasn't posted anything about my recent posts, only saying in 2043 and 2046 that her vote wasn't changing, and agreeing that I needed to post.

[blindmewithscience]

Whoops, didn't finish my post.

Wait a minute...
No one's actually given a solid town case on Newbie I think.
Bork wants MD lynched, and said acryon was townier than Newbie (is this still correct Bork?), with me as a townread, so newbie is 2nd scummiest I think for him.
MD wants Newbie lynched.
Acryon is torn on Newbie, way back at 1878 (is this still true?)
I think I've made my opinion clear.
Everyone is reading bill to scum on Newbie.
Besides the TTH/Wisdom/Newbie mason interaction around 676, is there anything else at all that make Newbie town?

[blindmewithscience]

Wow.
Everyone is reading NULL to scum on Newbie.
Gah, phone posting.

[blindmewithscience]

also inb4 we get no post from bmws ever again and we wait on replacement and get no extension cause mods can just make up whatever rules about deadlines they want without consultation

Return from the dead!!!!!
Yea, my life has just been really hectic this past week. I've just done a read through of everything, and damn, you guys can really confuse people and then reads around quickly


Anyways, phone posting now. My general thoughts:
2106-2142: MD-acryon argument that changed both of their reads, leading to an acryln unvote. It was basically MD talking about acryln sharing his reads, sheeping Borks argument, not really scum hunting. Acryon has been town for me, and this brought him only slightly closer to neutral. This also begins to lean MD to a sloghtly lower state of null scum. MD was actively encouraging him to scum hunt. At this point, I was somewhat confused.
2143-2174: first off, what a delicious prod. This section was newbie being "you guys are all scum reading me, just do something to get this over with, and pls lynch action". Not too much to say on this section. Still only kinda confused.
2175-2199(basically page 88): At this point, I began going like "whaaaaaaaaaa..." . Things got somewhat less confusing with 2202, but wow. Typos, misinterpretations, weird voting, everything.

Newbie

, where did your vote in 2197 come from? WIFOM in 2199. I agree with the General sentiment of 2193.

While I can understand the misinterpretation my Newbie, I really don't know what to think about this page as a whole.

And then We get to more lovely stuff up until around 2240, it's just everyone resetting their reads, not much important that I saw.

Newbie

: Do you want me to respond to your 2248 personally, or would you rather not have me in this?(just making sure, in case you want an "outside perspective" of me )
Hey Bork: I understand your frustrations with MD and the whole wgeurts role fishing rhing. To me, I can see how the arguments from either side could make sense.
If anything happens overnight, I'll be back tomorrow morning for a while.

[blindmewithscience]

Sorry for this short response, but it's late at night and I'm tired and phone posting. Also apologies for no links or spoilers or yada yada yada.
1. With this statement, you make the assumption that either me or acryon is scum. You find that both avryon and I have had interactions with twenties that don't seem like they're scum-scum interactions. You then implicitly state that because wine of us must be scum, this point for me as town is null. Because your assumption contradicts the conclusion, you say the conclusion is wrong. But from my perspective (and I believe MD's as well) the assumption is wrong. This leads to an eventual incorrect conclusion.
2-3. towards the end of day 2, I just became really confused about everything. My reads ha d changed, the masonteam claimed, and tons of other stuff happened. I didn't want to vote until I could clear up things for me (you might be able to see this confusion in my late day posts. Idk though.) also note my V/LA for the last part of the day.
4-6. I feel like there's bo way to say something to respond to this point that would be any good. I guess you'd just have to trust me in this, but I don't consider myself a person that does things for towncred--i just do things that help me to determine scum (or clear up whatever someone said )
Super tired atm. Tell me if anything I said above is blatantly wrong or just superconfusing. I shift any and all blame to The earths rotation

[blindmewithscience]

W. T. F.
Bork, this becomes a decision for you. I feel like acryon made that lynch to implicate me via WIFOM (but then for you, this just becomes a whole WIFOM game for you...).
VOTE: acryon
^pretty self explanatory. No one else to lynch.

[blindmewithscience]

Just came back to this and realized what I said above could be taken a different way than I intended.
Bork: Don't let WIFOM screw up your decision. I've spent the past 15 minutes going through it and screwed up my brain. Just look at us throughout these past days. Figure out your stances on everything. way too tired right now, I'll see if you've posted anything by tomorrow morning.

[blindmewithscience]

Damnit, thanks for lynching me Bork
Really good game by acryon though. Didn't see you as scum until D6. GG.
So guys, this is my first game on this site. Any advice?