Open 588 Pick Your Poison -- Game Over

[Drezi]

hi everyone.

VOTE: acryon

[Drezi]

What's this about Drezi? Do we know each other?

Why of course, it's a personal vendetta, all board the Acryon Express!

[Drezi]

Okay someone who is not Drezi, Victor, or croboss give me a good town reason to build a half lynch wagon on the first page.
I can see how scum can benefit from such actions but hard to find a reason for me join in.

What do you all think of this post? It feels like dropping by only to say "hi, im not scum".

usually a quickbuilt wagon lacks a good case with valid reasons attached to the votes, thus not only can scums lynch town but vote analysis post flip would give little clues as to which of them were opportunistic scums

+ taking the chance to contribute to a non-existant case.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: deathfisaro

[Drezi]

You're jumping on the easy read.

Easy reads are often wrong reads.

Yeah, I don't have a problem with being wrong since:

we are in the early game and we don't have a lot to go on, our best bet is to pressure anything that looks remotely scummy, and see how everyone reacts to said pressure.

Also I really don't like this argument:

When you see scummy shit right off the bat, 9 times out of 10, it's coming from town. Scum are too busy being careful and trying to blend in.

First of all generalisations don't work, and obviously we can't just ignore scummy behavior regardless of alignment, if it's town they had something in mind for acting that way, if it goes ignored forever, what was the point?

You're jumping on the easy read.

Easy reads are often wrong reads.

I don't like this post, I really don't like this post. Someone who has played as many games as you have House should know this

The way this is phrased and the scolding subtly overdramatizes the weight of this case imo.

Deathfisario I'd say probably leans town.

What made you lean towards town in his posts?

I'm happy with my vote for now

[Drezi]

I don't like House's vote in 93. Ton's of people have been speculating and I don't see why Lal should be singled out.

That's such a troll vote

[Drezi]

Are you saying my vote is trollish or House's vote is?

House's.

She seems to know there is an IC and is trying to push Cyanide based on her knowledge.

If this is supposed to be his reason for voting, that is.

Lalendra voted Cyanide saying:

OR this is scum who knows that there is an IC and is trying to rationalize why he might know that so that when the IC is discovered, and it seems like he knew too much, he can just go "well I said right in this post here that I was just assuming based on the completed games!"

Which is wrong, but apparently House did not vote her for making a case against somene with incorrect reasoning (That would be weird btw after defending deathfisaro, saying that scum can't possibly make such a mistake). He voted her saying that she seems to know there is an IC and uses that knowledge, while it's pretty evident that her case was that

IF

Cyanide is scum and there is an IC, he'd obviously know that, and he's trying to rationalize why he knows that. (CYANIDE already explained why this doesn't really make sense in 91).

[Drezi]

Hammerer: claim
IC: I'm IC
Hammerer: pm to mods so we know you are IC
Wagonners: yeah go pm the mods
IC: no, I'll do it first thing next day
Hammerer: no, you have to pm the mod or you're getting a hammer
IC: I'll do it the first thing next day, we're not in LyLo, if I don't do it the next day you can still lynch me, blahblahblah
Hammerer&Wagonners: *more discussion ensues*
Wagonners: unvote: IC

Wagonners: vote Player2 (L-1)
Player2: actually I'm IC
...
Player3: no, actually I'm IC

Back to square one.

OR

NL
random townie (not ic claim) found dead.
Lynch IC claim, when he can't confirm.
Repeat.

And imagine this situation when we don't even have an IC. Scum knows if that's the case.

Where's the +value?

[Drezi]

You clearly don't know how IC works.

You clearly don't understand what I'm saying.

[Drezi]

In example one, the IC makes an incorrect play by immediately counterclaiming.

My examples are both the continuations of your example2, which is in the quote. Read it as such, noone is counterclaiming immediately.

[Drezi]

House do I need to spoonfeed you the scenarios step by step, or will try and manage by yourself for a change?

[Drezi]

Guys please.

We try to lynch someone. He claims IC, tells us to spare him, he'll confirm himself the next day.
NOONE COUNTERCLAIMS.
We simply try and lynch the next person.
He claims IC too, telling us to spare him he's the real one, he'll confirm the next day.
NOONE COUNTERCLAIMS.
We try to lynch someone again....
And everyone is a claimed IC, who'll confirm next day, so we're back where we started, only way out of the lynch is to use IC ability for real and get mod confirmed.

OR we have my situation two.

We let the IC claim live and confirm next day and we go NL.
Scum DOES NOT kill the IC claim, kills random townie.
Next day we still don't know shit about the IC claim since he wasn't NK-d, we're in the same place with +1 town dead, IC has to confirm, or get's lynched, just like the day before.

[Drezi]

It makes no difference, if one can be spared because of an IC claim without actually proving it, then why would anyone go down willingly?

[Drezi]

It makes no difference, if one can be spared because of an IC claim without actually proving it, then why would anyone go down willingly?

Stop posting stupidity or I WILL vote you.

...

I did not necessarily recommend people claiming IC, I just recommended people not counterclaiming IC.

He wanted to make sure, that real IC does not counterclaim. That is correct, noone is arguing that.

What I demonstrated in my examples, is that there's no value to be gain from letting an IC claim pass for a day without proof like Cyanide has shown in his examples,

the one and only answer to the IC claim is "prove it right now, or get rekt"

so the real IC will have no reed to counterclaim in order to get the lynch through anyway.



You're not as smart as you think you are, so do us all a favor and stop acting like a condescending jerk (or I WILL vote you ), this game is meant to be recreational and fun.

[Drezi]

sadly you didn't convince anyone because nobody had a contrary opinion.

The hell, it was none other than you that promted my reply, by bringing up a case where we don't lynch the claim right away, and let him live and conf next day for value..

or I WILL vote you.

The I will vote you part is a sarcastic remark to this.

And my "projection" is a remark to this shit:

Do you always assume your adversary is an idiot? Because if so, you're simply projecting.

... resisting... urge... to vote... stupid.

Stop posting stupidity

Now you're posting stupidity too?

Who's calling everyone else stupid?...

[Drezi]

IC: no, I'll do it first thing next day
Hammerer: no, you have to pm the mod or you're getting a hammer

IC: I'll do it the first thing next day

, we're not in LyLo, if I don't do it the next day you can still lynch me, blahblahblah
Hammerer&Wagonners: *more discussion ensues*
Wagonners: unvote: IC
~~

IT IS NOW NIGHT 1

IC, who was not actually IC but vanilla town, has been found dead

What I took from Cyanide's use of the word day was r/l day, not game Day.

:^)

[Drezi]

Agreed, it's useless at this point. It can only really aid scum in finding who is a PR by the way people approach the topic.

For the love of all that is good, can we stop talking about the setup? If scum hasn't figured out who the PRs are already, then they will if people don't shut up.

No it doesn't. Ask yourself, do you have any idea who the PRs/IC are? You don't, because WIFOM fucks up every reason you may have for it + lurkers who haven't given any input about anything are null reads and they may be power roles as well. I remember analyzing newbie games about scum and doc finding PRs in N1 and the amount of times they succeeded was exactly the amount of times you'd expect them to if their votes were cast completely random. I'm talking exactly the amount, down to the decimal point.

They won't figure out anything.

I think you guys are arguing the two extreme ends of the spectrum, and the truth is somewhere inbetween.

I agree that generally people overestimate the reliability of tells and such, so I don't think we need to get overly paranoid over discussing such topics, if it boosts an otherwise low activity or might be useful in some way.

However it's going to a bit far to say that WIFOM renders every clue useless. It might be so as early as D1 in a void, but later with additional context you can still make a read/guess as to how far you believe the person in question went in the wifom circle, which should be at least a bit better than writing it off as completely random.

[Drezi]

As for the wagon on Cyanide, I'm against it.

No, I'm not townreading him, and you are holding some valid points against him that make me wary too, however I believe that lynching him D1 would not be beneficial for the town gameplan. Regardless of his alignment Cyanide generates a lot of activity and responses with content (as NJAC pointed out too), and not just fluff talk. Letting him do that a bit more (that doesn't mean giving him a free pass due to this infinitely) is better, than lynching him right off the bat, while we could lynch someone else with a similar chance of being scum, but without the upsides.

you guys post wayyy too much i can hardly catch up

You should be happy when the town makes content (if you are town). The more content we do, the more chance we have to lynch correctly. scum

<-- In itself, what he said is only fluff, null

Who actually claimed IC? I can't find it where someone actually claimed?

It is obvious that nobody claimed IC. A town player would read through the thread. scum

<-- scummy yes, but we're talking about a new player here so I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt for now.

however when it comes to Dooku, in post 185 addressing me, and his question in post 186 it appears that he himself only skimmed the thread at best, and he's not a new player.

haha I guess I'm pretty bad at mafia

See the end of post 185. scum

<-- end of 185 is true, but croboss saying that is not alignment indicative, it could semijustify a vote more like for PL reasons.

VOTE: Sir Cyanide

This is ridiculous. Jump on the biggest wagon, without saying anything 'why'? scum

<-- I don't like croboss' vote either, but the case against him still feels weak.

I must confess that my reason for the vote on Sir Cyanide was to generate discussion

First of all: why would we believe you? You can just be scum, who tried to jump on the biggest wagon, and after you realised, you try to get away with (a bad) excuse. To make it clear: Neither I am scumreading you nor townreading based on this post. It is

null

.
Second: you want more content? You said that we post way too much... and you wnat more content? I won't buy it. Nice contradiction btw. scum

<-- That's a legit point, however.

Comparing this to Dooku's original post, he depicted every quote from croboss as red ->

scum

which is way too forced and other than these, he's only asked questions and commented on minor things here and there so far.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Count Dooku

[Drezi]

<-- In itself, what he said is only fluff, null

What do you mean? What I said is fluff, or what crobosss said?

what croboss said

<-- scummy yes, but we're talking about a new player here so I'm willing to give the benefit of doubt for now.

This is a very bad tactic. You cannot read someone less scummy, only because he is a newbie... First, why are you sure that he has never played a mafia game? Second, reading through the game is actually something, that has nothing to do with experience. What you did here is pretty much defending him with no valid reason.

You can't read someone's actions in their first game the same way, as someone who's played several games. I'm more likely to believe that getting lost "wait guys what's going on" is sincere in his case.

however when it comes to Dooku, in post 185 addressing me, and his question in post 186 it appears that he himself only skimmed the thread at best, and he's not a new player.

Haha . That is all I can say. Could you tell me why do you think that I didn't read the thread? I can help: you don't really think it. You just wanted to throw more and more shit at me.

Oh really? You try to contribute saying that my threat to House "or I WILL vote you" is nonsense, I can't vote someone for being a jerk, when 1) it's obviously sarcasm if you look at the whole context 2) I even EXPLICITLY clarified that it was sarcasm in 178. As for your post 186 we have THREE PAGES discussing the whole IC case, with several detailed explanations and rundowns, reading it would answer every question.

.

<-- end of 185 is true, but croboss saying that is not alignment indicative, it could semijustify a vote more like for PL reasons.

That is clearly not PL reason. Even you said that you think that the end of 185 is true. It is not PL anymore. That is a legit scumread.

I agreed that you shouldn't call yourself bad, because it makes you useless, hard to take seriously or read properly, and lynching such players is PL. New player saying sorry I'm bad, can come from either alignment.

<-- That's a legit point, however.

Okay. Since everything you didn't find legit is legit actually (your reasons against my case were "it is fluff" "it is scummy, but he is a newbie" "I agree with you, but I still think that would be a PL", + there is this last comment where even you stated that it is legit. And you still think that my case is weak?

Yes, you're preying on the easiest target, you compiled a plenty of weak or wrong arguments, and made them all definitive indicators of being scum, while you are guilty of one of those things yourself, and now your defense/plain denying of certain parts, plus automatically attacking me for my observatios, hasn't really convinced me.

[Drezi]

newbie=/= stupid. He can fake everything. I used this newbie/bad play/low experience card in my first game. I was scum.

You having done the same thing would explain why you think this is the case now aswell. I'm not saying he's stupid or that he can't be scum. I think I made it clear that I believe it's simply not alignment indicative. That means what you're saying is possible, but not the only explanation, like you seem to think.
^
And this is the exactly my problem.

And you have a problem with my weak reasons

NOT that they are weak, but the fact that you're portraying everything as definite evidence, and not looking at the problem from every perspective.

[Drezi]

I thought it was a relatively town thing for Dooku to do.
I picture young Dooku getting ready for high school, and it seems like a pro-town thing to say.

Doesn't town lose a lot of edge by saying that before the catch-up posts even come? Because now any scum doing catch-up posts will simply post with that statement from Dooku in mind.

Actually I'm seconding Dooku's statement.

Also what can scum do about it? Write a non-towny catchup post? It's only a reminder for town, not to be overwhelmed feeling "omg so town" while reading a catchup post, but read it carefully and judge it for what it is instead. He probably remembered to say this after reading Rachmarie's post, thus the timing.

UNVOTE: Count Dooku

This makes one less thing going against the possibility of scum!croboss.

[Drezi]

I think it also actively discourages actual townies from making longer more solid catch-up posts in fear of them being written off as scum/disingenuous.

Absolutely not, making a solid pro-town post is not something to fear regardless, simply we need to stay open minded, and not consider some people town for granted because of that.

Btw if it came down to a lynch between croboss and House which would you prefer?

[Drezi]

I will try to catch up all

Nice.

@everyone
I want you guys to keep in mind while you read these catch-up posts that it is easier to make catch-up posts/reads look towny.

What is this? Some kind of weird disclaimer on Rach's catch-up posts

to paint them black before people even read

?

He made no comment about Rach specifically. I'm positive you knew the difference between the two statements; the one CD made, and what you rephrased it as.

Well this is weird. I disagreed with acryon regarding the red part.

On the other hand, you seem to argue that it wasn't about Rach and it's not logical to draw a connection there etc., while it obviously IS a disclaimer on Rach's post,

as well as the other catch-ups too

. And I did not think there was a problem with that.

[Drezi]

but he's voting for dooku without much of an argument and seemingly very little thought behind it. He's just observing the debate and then casually injecting some fluff/random comments about how the game is going and someone's thoughts and then BAM, croboss did this and that in post X and he is scum vote croboss.

I'm sorry, come again?

[Drezi]

I could as easily claim you wanted to me to picture the arguement in its 'Hitler Loved Dogs' form.

That's the exact opposite of this case.

[Drezi]

Dooku please learn the difference between "it doesn't necessarily mean he's scum" and "he cannot be scum".

[Drezi]

Ok, I'll be honest it might be due to cognitive dissonance, since I've just unvoted him, but I don't really get all the heat Dooku is getting now.

I think it's possible that you're mad because someone called you on your scum slip.

Scumslip? When?

354

I mean that's quite a reach really.

This whole case revolves around his intentions behind that post about catch-ups, and how he lost his temper trying to explain it over and over, since everyone seems to think it's super scummy or even a scumslip.

Dooku lynch go!

So where's your vote? Last time you did not have a problem with changing votes even within an hour.

What I found scummy about Dooku was how he painted everything croboss was doing as definite evidence of being scum, while the case wasn't that black/white imo, but after he explained how he did the very same things as newbscum, I can see how it would draw his judgement towards that strong scumread.

Also what he said about catch up posts is something I lost a game to once, when everyone went crazy and unvoted the wagon I wanted to get lynched, because of the omg so-town catchup posts after a replace on the slot, so yeah I can see town intentions aswell behind that post.

[Drezi]

What is your issue with the timing? What kind of reaction would you expect instead from town!Dooku?

[Drezi]

I didn't like that he's warning us about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up before the post is even there.

What that's kind of the point though.

Would you prefer the situation as:

Rach: hi guys, catching up, my reads are as follows...
Dooku: guys it's easy to make catchup posts look towny!

If anything

that

could look more like trying to discredit the post right away, without regard to the actual content.
Doing it beforehand is more of neutral course of action, since we don't have an actual post to judge at that point, it's a reminder not to be town-biased with reads due to the nature of catchups.

[Drezi]

Well, Dooku has the most votes right now.

[Drezi]

I didn't like that he's warning us

about Rach's (or anyone else's) potential catch up

before the post is even there.

What that's kind of the point though.

Would you prefer the situation as:

Rach: hi guys, catching up, my reads are as follows...
Dooku: guys it's easy to make catchup posts look towny!

If anything

that

could look more like trying to discredit the post right away, without regard to the actual content.
Doing it beforehand is more of neutral course of action, since we don't have an actual post to judge at that point, it's a reminder not to be town-biased with reads due to the nature of catchups.

That's complete bs.

As he is scum, he knows whether Rach is town or not and preempting her catch up post is just as scummy as posting it after.

And as a response to the red parts, I elaborated how that timing is not worse at the very least, than doing it afterwards. If you find that scummy regardless of the timing, it's a different matter, I don't hold that against you.

That being said, if I wanted to scumread him for that statement, it would be wifomy reasons - him wanting to look townie by warning us (even at the cost of possibly appearing scummy to some,

which normally scum would avoid!

), and not the warning itself being the main case againt him.

[Drezi]

Hey, I'm done reading. There is a ton of useless information in the last 24 pages

I'm not going to make reads on everyone. I left my notes at home and really a lot of you are null reads anyways.

Really the only thing I want to jump on right now is Dooku wagon, he was very defensive and took up a lot of pages being angry about people asking him about the disclaimer thing. In addition I feel like the Croboss vote early on seemed like he knew he was after an easy target. Also, while his exit from this game was less than graceful I'm trying not to hold RL stuff against him.

VOTE: Count Dooku

Feel free to question me on anything

Hey there, in your last post you mentioned:

As of where I am Sir Cyanide is on my radar as is Death.

But it ended up as "lots of useless information in the last 24 pages, everyone is null"?

People removed votes from you due to croboss replacing out, and now that everyone seems to have forgotten about that, you just chill out and join the largest wagon repeating the reasons others have given?

Well that doesn't quite work for me.

VOTE: Metalcyanide

[Drezi]

Hi there Sakura

Yes, metalcyanide replaced croboss.

[Drezi]

for pisskop bringing up soft

I don't see why any town would bring forth a

possible

soft-claim when such person hasn't died yet
It's scum's job to hunt for PRs, it's town's job to hunt for scum.
Unvote
Vote: pisskop

while

248 and 241 together in such quick succession is softclaiming IC to me.

no mention of this and townread?

Also there was no mention of croboss in your reads before, can you share your thoughts now wrt that whole debate around him?

[Drezi]

I don't like the idea of a Dooku (Reminiscence) lynch too much atm, but seeing he's L-2, it wouldn't hurt if Reminiscence fully caught up by now..

[Drezi]

Ugh all these replacements...

Anyway this instahammer after getting in and "will read tonight" like seriously? did he just replace into a scum slot, saw that he was the other wagon, hammer away and will try to play the "too scummy to be actually scum" card? why would town in their right mind hammer someone without reading the thread, DL isn't even close..

[Drezi]

VOTE: ika

guess it was intended as a wifomy play, but I don't see town motivation behind it, looks like scum yoloing. and it's the Dooku slot that had the "painting it way scummier than it actually is" case on croboss who flipped town.

[Drezi]

@those voting ika (+Riabi included):

if ika is scum, who do you think the possible partners are?

[Drezi]

Stop trying to distract town with associative hunting preflip, Drezi.

If you want to scumread someone, you need to be able to form scumteams around them. If you have a hard time seeing him as a team with most of the other players, chances are higher that your read might be wrong. Yes we have distancing and bussing, but it's something to consider with all of this taken into account.

Also if you just keep telling people what they're doing is bad, useless etc. it just starts making them apathetic, and they'll be less and less likely to bring forth possible clues and cases, which might have been useful. I hope you can see how anti-town that is on your part. If you think something isn't productive explain why you think so, and offer a better course of action etc.

[Drezi]

This is not about your appearance, but the actual result of your actions.

[Drezi]

Ok, gonna have time to work with this game tomorrow, would very much appreciate if Metal wasn't lynched before then

VOTE: Metalcyanide

will read tonight

The wagon building on Ika because quick hammer is dumb as shit because it is being formed because quick hammer and no other reason except "quick hammer".

Oh hold your horses, it's a quickhammer by someone who just replaced in, also you specifically asked not to lynch Metal before you have to chance to contribute, he did it anyway and now you're here saying how stupid it is to vote him?

If nothing more it's a good shot at seeing who'll jump on the easy wagon as it happened indeed. He's still yet to explain his vote btw.

The thing that makes me hesitant about scumreading the slot (even though my last read of Dooku was town) is that the scumpartners I could see him with are [nacho, pisskop and maybe sakura] and 2-3 out of 9 is too few for the odds to look good for such a team.

Seeing your entry though I wonder..

[Drezi]

It looks like you want me to give you my read of you - why?

[Drezi]

Don't forget that he himself was the second wagon with 4 votes. And your current vote (partly?) comes from the way NJAC joined the ika wagon, so I don't see how you can deem the wagon dumb and pointless.

[Drezi]

Other than you wanting us to look elsewhere now, of course

[Drezi]

Or, to be more explicit, why was Ika so afraid of getting mislynched where he decided to bring himself into the spotlight he did? Do you think he just didn't know it would bring him attention? You thought maybe he went "yep no one is gonna question this whatsoever"...?

Quite the contrary, it's a very controversial move, and everyone is gonna be talking about that, overshadowing the prior case against him which earned him all the votes up until that point. And he can get away with it easier since "why would scum bring himself into the spotlight, it was a dumb non alignment indicative move nothing more, let's move on guys".

[Drezi]

"Pay no attention to me guys, I'm just an idiot!"
Drezi, do you truly believe that's a defense scum would come up with?

As in look in your heart of hearts and tell me you believe that so either you open your eyes a little bit or I get a good hearty laugh out of this whole situation.

But the first one is a strawman, and why the AtE?

[Drezi]

Like, it's a fact he did what he did, the only question is whether town or scum is more likely to do that.

[Drezi]

and I don't really feel this playerlist is the type to kick you into doing that.

Based on your attitude, right now I think that you believe you can just save your scumbuddy easy peasy here.

[Drezi]

No, it means specific people who Sakura wants to win against no matter what. Even though the original wording didn't really indicate that.

[Drezi]

Please explain the functional difference between what you said and what I said.

What you said doesn't describe the situation like at all. I feel like I'm repeating myself but anyway. It's not a situation where a scum comes up with a defense in the first place. It's a situation where he grabs the opportunity to seal the deal and make sure the other wagon gets lynched, and it has no real drawbacks for him since:

1) the attention from the original case against him will shift towards his questionable hammer - he was already in the center of attention (along with metal) with his 4 votes and still will be, but with a different topic
2) some people are bound to take the stance you took, where you think it's stupid to vote him for that, and when others push for a lynch it'll look like a weaker case, since we overlook the original stuff he had going against him, and will just be like "hey we can't lynch him for a QH that's stupid'"

so for scum it could be a quick decision: town lynched over him for sure - attention shifted to a wifomy debate of hammer.

as town, what makes this play less likely is the fact that a townie normally wouldn't just go and get someone lynched without establishing a read (he just replaced in, wasn't in the game before) and deducing that there's a better than average chance of lynching scum. for scum it makes no difference obviously.

now you ask if there's a significant difference or not between the scum and town motivation here. well of course it could be stupid/yolo play from either alignment, but it doesn't really matter if the difference is slight or significant, the fact itself that he chose to act like this alone is worth voting him for, as regardless of his alignment it gets people to jump on the wagon with various excuses and reasons, and others to defend him, and as I said, even your vote is a result of this, so yeah a multipurpose wagon is not dumb any way I look at it.

[Drezi]

You can't think of it as Dooku hammering though, I wouldn't have minded that.

[Drezi]

Dooku/Remin's wagon is the wrong wagon. If I have to pick some scummy names from that wagon I'd say Victor, Metal and maybe Riabi.

Anyway Hana/fisaro is scum for sure.

@pisskop: stop playing silly and get your vote back to Hana.

Sakura is also town.

what made you change your mind about her?

vote: NJAC

I don't have too strong feeling against the NJAC wagon (definitely no lynch before ika posts though!) but you haven't really mentioned him before other than being less contentful, and now you're just placing a vote, explain?

I fully believe that at least 2 out of the 3 scums are new(er) insofar as they killed SC.

also I don't get this thought process, looks like you believe experienced scum wouldn't choose SC for the NK, so you think there are 2 newer scum at least. Wouldn't the non-new scum dissuade them from the "bad" NK anyway by that logic?

[Drezi]

oh my god, ninjaed with no less than the hammer I did not want. zzz

[Drezi]

based vig please shoot ika tonight if you're out there.

also don't trust sakura i'm getting scummy vibes from her.

[Drezi]

1-shot Cop here.

Sakura is town.

:Sigh:

that's a relief though, sorry Sakura, I got paranoid when you started questioning me about not approaching you

we'll be 9 after an NK, so an ika PL would mean LyLo the next day.

[Drezi]

ika reminds me of the "i saw a bird today" game.... he should be banned from this forum if he turns out to be town, like seriously.

[Drezi]

haha no.

[Drezi]

are you scum pisskop.

[Drezi]

do you expect us to PL in Lylo instead? LOL

[Drezi]

but my choice of scumteams with ika flipping town would look totally differently. and if riabi isn't actually scum we're in lylo with lolhammer ika still not knowing anything about him.

[Drezi]

Welcome TellTaleHeart!

I would also vote Riabi.

It's MyLo and you just wanna lynch off the PL case, without all the care in the world?

pisskop had been vigged over ika, and the only sensible explanation I can imagine for that would be ika being the vig like seriously.

[Drezi]

Also had this draft saved:

Replaced replacement names, so it's easier to see where the slots had been voting
Always Mafia -> TellTaleHeart now, but she hasn't actually played so far so I kept AM in here.

Spoiler:

Votecount 1.01

Albert B. Rampage - 3 - Drezi, Always Mafia,

Metalcyanide

Ika - 1 -

Sakura

Metalcyanide

- 1 -

SIR CYANIDE

House - 1 - Ika

pisskop

- 1 - House
Nacho - 1 -

pisskop

Always Mafia - 1 - Riabi

Not Voting: Nacho,

NJAC

, Albert B. Rampage, Lalendra,

Votecount 1.02

Albert B. Rampage - 3 - Drezi, Always Mafia,

Metalcyanide

Nacho - 2 -

pisskop

,

NJAC

Ika - 1 -

Sakura

Metalcyanide

- 1 -

SIR CYANIDE

House - 1 - Ika

pisskop

- 1 - House
Always Mafia - 1 - Riabi

Not Voting: Nacho, Albert B. Rampage, Lalendra,

Votecount 1.03

Nacho - 2 -

pisskop

,

NJAC

Ika - 1 -

Sakura

Metalcyanide

- 1 -

SIR CYANIDE

Sakura

- 1 - Drezi
House - 1 - Riabi

pisskop

- 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho, Albert B. Rampage, Lalendra, Always Mafia, Ika,

Metalcyanide

Votecount 1.04

Sakura

- 3 - Drezi,

SIR CYANIDE

, House

SIR CYANIDE

- 3 - Lalendra, Always Mafia,

Sakura

House - 1 - Riabi
Nacho - 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nacho, Albert B. Rampage, Ika,

Metalcyanide

,

pisskop

Votecount 1.05

SIR CYANIDE

- 5 - Lalendra, Always Mafia,

Sakura

,

Metalcyanide

, Albert B. Rampage

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Ika
House - 2 - Riabi,

pisskop

Ika - 1 - House

Sakura

- 1 - Drezi
Nacho - 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.06

SIR CYANIDE

- 4 - Lalendra, Always Mafia,

Sakura

, Albert B. Rampage

Metalcyanide

- 3 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Ika,

NJAC

House - 2 - Riabi,

pisskop

Ika - 1 - House

Sakura

- 1 - Drezi

Not Voting: Nacho,

Metalcyanide

Votecount 1.07

Metalcyanide

- 3 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Ika,

NJAC

House - 3 - Riabi,

pisskop

, Always Mafia

SIR CYANIDE

- 3 - Lalendra,

Sakura

, Albert B. Rampage
Ika - 1 - Drezi
Riabi - 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho,

Metalcyanide

Votecount 1.08

Metalcyanide

- 3 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Ika,

NJAC

Ika - 2 - Always Mafia, Lalendra

SIR CYANIDE

- 2 -

Sakura

, Albert B. Rampage
House - 1 – Riabi

pisskop

- 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho,

Metalcyanide

, Drezi,

pisskop

Votecount 1.09

Ika - 3 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

,

NJAC

SIR CYANIDE

- 2 -

Sakura

, Albert B. Rampage

pisskop

- 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho,

Metalcyanide

, Drezi,

pisskop

, Ika

Votecount 1.10

Ika - 4 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi, House

Sakura

- 2 -

NJAC

,

pisskop

Metalcyanide

- 1 -

SIR CYANIDE

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho,

Metalcyanide

, Drezi, Ika,

Sakura

Votecount 1.11

Ika - 5 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi, House,

Metalcyanide

Sakura

- 3 -

NJAC

,

pisskop

, Ika
Albert B. Rampage - 1 -

Sakura

Metalcyanide

- 1 -

SIR CYANIDE

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho, Drezi

Votecount 1.12

Ika - 5 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi, House,

Metalcyanide

Sakura

- 3 -

NJAC

,

pisskop

, Ika

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi
Albert B. Rampage - 1 -

Sakura

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.13

Ika - 5 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi, House,

Metalcyanide

Albert B. Rampage - 2 -

Sakura

,

pisskop

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi

Sakura

- 2 -

NJAC

, Ika

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.14

Ika - 5 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi, House,

Metalcyanide

Metalcyanide

- 3 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

Sakura

- 2 -

NJAC

, Ika
Albert B. Rampage - 1 -

pisskop

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.15

Ika - 4 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi,

Metalcyanide

Metalcyanide

- 3 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

Sakura

- 3 -

NJAC

, Ika, House

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho,

pisskop

Votecount 1.16

L-1 ->

Metalcyanide

- 6 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

, House,

pisskop

, Albert B. Rampage
Ika - 3 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi

Sakura

- 3 -

NJAC

, Ika,

Metalcyanide

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.17

L-1 ->

Metalcyanide

- 6 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

, House,

pisskop

, Albert B. Rampage
ika - 4 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi,

Metalcyanide

Sakura

- 2 -

NJAC

, ika

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.18

(LYNCH)

Metalcyanide

- 7 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

, House,

pisskop

, Albert B. Rampage, ika
ika - 4 - Always Mafia, Lalendra, Riabi,

Metalcyanide

Sakura

- 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 2.01

ika - 4 - Drezi, Albert B. Rampage, Lalendra,

NJAC

NJAC

- 1 - Always Mafia

pisskop

- 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho, ika, Riabi,

Sakura

,

pisskop

Votecount 2.02

ika - 4 - Drezi, Lalendra,

NJAC

, House

NJAC

- 3 - Always Mafia, Nacho, Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: ika, Riabi,

Sakura

,

pisskop

Votecount 2.03

(LYNCH)

NJAC

- 6 - Always Mafia, Nacho, Albert B. Rampage,

Sakura

,

pisskop

, ika
ika - 4 - Drezi, Lalendra,

NJAC

, House

Not Voting: Riabi

[Drezi]

A quick lead-off:
If anyone gives me attitude about how ika quick-hammering isn't a scumtell,

I'm going to hate your fucking guts

. That's all well and good that hammering is part of his meta. However, that's not what makes ika scum. He has a pretty clearly established meta with regards to activity and he's fairly easy to read just from that. His lurking and detachment from the game fit his scum meta to a T. ika is scum here.

Ok.

Who are the partners of ika?

[Drezi]

Because clearly ika can not be scum alone, he has two partners.

[Drezi]

I've asked this before and noone cared to answer btw, and we had two more townflips.

[Drezi]

Hey, TTH where'd you go?

[Drezi]

So could you answer who you think could be a scumteam with ika? It's a question @everyone.

[Drezi]

Why are you ignoring my question?

[Drezi]

Why are you ignoring my question?

Quit it. I'm not playing

this

game. It's

extremely

annoying.

I've still got quite a few topics to talk about from 40 pages of game. Namely: ika's predecessors, Nacho, and ABR.

You don't get to micromanage, Drezi. Give me a little time.

So you voted ika in a MyLo situation, without any idea if he even fits into a scumteam that makes sense, or you simply hadn't had time to post a few names in an hour, while posting here about other stuff.

VOTE: TellTaleHeart

[Drezi]

The other two scum are ABR and Riabi maaaybe Nacho, but I'm willing to believe Sakura's townread on him, and I find it slightly less likely that Rachmarie would have been allowed to lurk ALL OF D1 as scum without a sooner replacement.

[Drezi]

Im a HE, as stated next to every post I make, shows how prepared and attentively you made your case.

[Drezi]

I've still got quite a few

topics to talk about

from 40 pages of game.

Namely:

ika's predecessors, Nacho, and ABR.

Not quite sure how anyone could think of this as an answer to my question, especially after that first line.

[Drezi]

You're scum because of your predecessor's play, because you tried to push an easy win on ika with your scumbuddy Riabi right off the gates putting him 3 votes away from a lynch and because you couldn't answer a simple question that would show that at least you're seriously convinced that you're voting scum in MyLo.

I'm townreading Lalendra and House, which leaves You Riabi ABR Nacho and ika as possible scum, and ika has like no scumteams that even make sense at this point, which makes him a likely town by PoE, and I've already told you about Nacho.

On the other hand ABR quite conviniently townreads Riabi and you and votes me go figure.

[Drezi]

The targets of ABR and Lalendra a clearly new player, and me, the two targets he percieved as easiest to push a mislynch on.

@town I'm fine with lynching any of ABR TTH and Riabi.

[Drezi]

EBWOP

The tagets of ABR are...*

[Drezi]

Go ahead and strawman my whole case based on that. Yes theoretically it means that a prepared scumteam could quickhammer, and there's no reason to allow it even by chance, especially when you can't even make a likely scumteam around ika.

[Drezi]

You're right I didn't think about the vig, so feel free cross the point about a potential quickhammer off the list.

[Drezi]

Yes theoretically it means that a prepared scumteam could quickhammer

That would necessitate me not being on it.

*sigh*

I'm already annoyed.

I'm talking from town!you POV obviously.

[Drezi]

That would necessitate me not being on it.

But I'm glad that you're automatically thinking of yourself as scum

[Drezi]

Just a fun fact, and you're strawmanning again.

[Drezi]

Look go ahead and bus one of your buddies if you wanna do something here, no point being annoyed, of course you'd be annoyed. Your vote is still on ika, which is absolutely useless are there's not a single chance that we're lynching him today.

[Drezi]

Just a fun fact, and you're strawmanning again.

Your whole argument is "You're not being cautious enough in MYLO." Like "MYLO" is some magical time where I

have

to have the scum team

really

nailed down before I can vote. I don't.

I said strawman so many times that I'm starting to feel stupid, so please stop doing it. It's not my whole case, I'm pretty sure it's mainly based on PoE and everything else I see supporting it.

[Drezi]

Seeing how we kinda got fed up with ika, and some of us agreed to PL him if he doesn't end up being vigged, I think they could have believed that we'd just go fuck this game and quickwagon him like we did D2.

And before the ika shenanigans I was townreading Dooku.

[Drezi]

And ABR and Riabi had been the ones going overboard, pushing him for that whole warning about catchup post things.

[Drezi]

that should answer 1045 too.

[Drezi]

I would be pretty inclined to vote Ika right now if I didn't think he had a good possibility of being the vig. I don't really know who in their right mind doesn't shoot Ika after yesterday, meaning the him = vig possibility is more likely than it should be.

That's exactly what I said at the start.

[Drezi]

And before the ika shenanigans I was townreading Dooku.

Of course you were.

???

[Drezi]

Riabi: WHO ARE SCUM WITH IKA?

[Drezi]

Nacho: who would be scum with ika?

[Drezi]

Riabi: WHO ARE SCUM WITH IKA?

I can't say for certain, of course, but Nacho and AM are certainly near the top of my list of possible scumbuddies.

So TTH is trying to bus ika right now when scum needs a single mislynch to win, and had been trying to bus him most of D1. That's quite likely I agree. Nope.

[Drezi]

Well read D1.

[Drezi]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... &start=350 onwards until page 23 mostly, basically everyone you don't mention trying to get Dooku (ika) lynched pushing him to the point of him replacing out. The only one that might look like bussing is House there, then again he was on the ika wagon D2 aswell and it certainly didn't look like it wasn't in danger of being lynched.

[Drezi]

...Not quite sure what to say here

You want to lynch ika, who is unlikely scum due to disassociation with everyone else regardless of how fucking much you'd find him alone scummy (and even that is arguable), and who also has a higher than normal chance of being the vig, who could possibly save town from defeat in case of a stupid mislynch (obviously not if hes fucking dead before the night).

[Drezi]

if I lynch them (ika), it will be easy to figure out it's me.

What do you mean here?

[Drezi]

I get that, even though I don't agree since both me and Sakura suggested that ika is vigged, so it could have been anyone.

I wondered about the "if I lynch them" part specifically. you corrected it from "shoot"

[Drezi]

huh how is that even possible, it was the only word you changed aside from adding names, and you even bolded it? dont take it the wrong way im just wondering

[Drezi]

wat

[Drezi]

no, NO we're not lynching the claimed vig

[Drezi]

no, we are most definitely not. if he's a fake, the real vig will fucking kill him next night.

[Drezi]

what do you think about ika being scum?

[Drezi]

I'm not interested in reads on ika, he's whatever. I've told you countless times, that I want to know about the 2 scumpartners you think he has, and why you think it's at least reasonably probable that they'd be scum with ika. You need at least 2 partners to make ika!scum work. I don't think any combination is too likely, but hey you can try and convince me!

[Drezi]

ABR, who are scum with Lalendra?

[Drezi]

I don't need you to tell me the exact scumteam. Tell me who you think is possible, and why. Do you think it could be House Lalendra Ika for example?

[Drezi]

why is everyone still voting ika? we're not lynching him, move your votes. vote TTH. vote ABR, I don't care.

[Drezi]

I don't even know what Lalendra is doing now, but I absolutely wouldn't want to lynch her, noone ever pushed her and now suddenly people want to lynch her, it just screams scum wanting easy mislynch.

TTH and ABR are still scum for what I said. Only difference is that if you're not a fake vig, the third scum could be someone else, but clearly I wouldn't want to lynch my weakest read.

[Drezi]

I don't care what scum thinks sorry.

[Drezi]

You never pointed a finger at her, not even a single shred of doubt, and now you're just coming up with your shit that she's scum go ahead and lynch her. She's been on the sidelines, noone has a strong feeling about her being town, so naturally it'll be easy to start making people paranoid.

[Drezi]

And that's exactly what you're doing.

[Drezi]

She's whatever, and we're not lynchign whatever. We're lynchign scum.

[Drezi]

Yeah, and I didn't even bother to read that properly because it's something you just made up on the spot (and you just said same goes for Lalendra) to vote me because I'm pushing your buddy and you needed a viable alternative to keep town divided.

[Drezi]

OH I CAN'T BE SERIOUS, WOO WOO NEWS TODAY, SCUM DENIES BEING CALLED OUT ON THEIR SHIT

[Drezi]

Yeah, you just claimed scum, GL.

[Drezi]

TTH, ABR, if you happen to be the vig or IC or tracker just go ahead and claim Oh but it's not any of you, is it? How surprising. Let me guess you both claim VT right?

[Drezi]

Yeah, you just claimed scum, GL.

I don't follow, how is that a scum claim?

It's not, but I'm obviously town, and he'd have to be really fucking dumb to vote me here, which he is not, that leaves us with him being scum with no better options.

[Drezi]

I mean seriously, imagine you're scum with a loud towny pointing at you and your scummate calling for a lynch, and he clearly doesn't wanna go ahead with the optional neutral mislynch target. Go and vote him and hope some townies side with you.

[Drezi]

Still I'm open to any suggestions regarding resolving this game, but you know you need to point at people as scum, that don't include mem, and some others as town, for me to take it seriously, and not only wishy washy oh well Lalendra's scummy let's lynch her and we'll see what happens bullshit.

[Drezi]

No, House I thought you were baiting, please don't disappoint me.

[Drezi]

Or do you honestly believe that Lalendra had been bussing Dooku whole game so you're agreeing with ABR on Lalendra scum?

[Drezi]

either way, call more people scum, because it's in scum's best interest to just get someone lynched and be done with it, agreeing on more players is a lot harder, if you know the next person thinks youre scum too you won't be so ready to agree with him on the first target.

[Drezi]

you all really need to start thinking in complete scumteams and be vocal about it to even stand a chance, singling out someone is all too easy for a mislynch.

[Drezi]

voting me would still be better than voting fucking ika who you can hardly even name scumpartners for...... yeah he's scummy and? I wanted him shot. everyone else wanted him lynched. geez. on the offchance that someone was hardbussing him D1 he can be scum and you'd blow our lynch for that..

[Drezi]

Voting me is terrible, but if you're town from YOUR POV it at least makes sense that you think I could be scum with whoever you might think makes sense.

And ika is NOT likely to be scum, because by process of elimination, you can't find scumpartners for him that are likely. If everyone here wanted to get ika killed, that means they are likely not scum with him. Ika can't be scum alone, that's not possible, even if he's the scummiest motherfucker ever to exist. Get it?

[Drezi]

This is why noone should be voting ika here, and noone should be voting you either since you're a claimed vig, and we'll obviously not lynch you. If there's a counterclaim we won't lynch either, we'll let the real vig shoot the fake. So Lalendra should really change her vote too.

[Drezi]

It's possible. It still makes more sense to try and kill one of his two partners if that's the case, because I'm not willing to put the game on him being hardbussed by someone. Check their interactions and see if it makes sense to you. As I said I could possibly see House bussing here, since he was saying "GO DOOKU LYNCH" without actually being on the wagon, later voted him, and moved onto the Metalcyanide wagon, but I had a townread on House, so I didn't consider this likely.

[Drezi]

Yes, they could also have tried to legitimately kill him, but again in my opinion it's just too much of a risk going after ika here.

[Drezi]

And I HATE him for putting us in this situation, but I'm just trying to make the best of what we've got here.

[Drezi]

One more thing, if we were to lynch ika, and he flipped town, you'd have an incredibly hard time deciding who to shoot, since EVERYONE here has a reason to want him dead, scum can blend in very easily.

[Drezi]

ABR, nice try setting up kills to ensure a fast win

[Drezi]

Riabi, why is your vote not on Drezi? Are you saving him for the vig tonight?

Seriously just look at this people.

[Drezi]

I KNOW IT'S A THING. I know he could be scum. But we have the whole game distancing and bussing him, so I just think that the odds are NOT THE BEST there.

[Drezi]

Especially when we have ABR here, seriously. What has he done to try and solve the game. Suggested that we lynch me, than when it wasn't sheeped Lalendra, and now ME again. Wow. Such tactics, much town. very plan.

VOTE: ABR

[Drezi]

Please, let town know your brilliant plan for the future, who am I scum with, who you are planning to proceed to lynch. It sure is easy to single out someone call him scum and try to get the lynch off to seal the game. Not calling anyone else scum just means you're trying to brush up to everyone to get enough townies to vote me.

[Drezi]

Lol good job parroting my arguments against you.

[Drezi]

Am I the only one seeing a lot of AtE here?

I don't think it's too hard to notice that I'm getting worked up, not sure how it means anything.

[Drezi]

tbh, I doubt I will get a chance. I fully expect to be NKd tonight, unless we have a jailkeeper.

Ohoho isn't this a scumslip? If you're a vig you can kill each other with scum. Are you setting up for being killed by the real vig? Also we absolutely do not have a jailkeeper, because Sakura wouldn't have died then.

Do we have a vig counterclaim?

[Drezi]

No that doesn't even make sense w/e.

[Drezi]

But we don't have a Jailkeeper, because he would have saved Sakura.

[Drezi]

And you can kill someone even if you're NK-d at the same time.

[Drezi]

Riabi is a claimed vig, that is confirmed town unless counterclaimed. I was getting ahead of myself with how he went about expecting to be NK-d and shit, since I considered the possibility that the vig would just kill him at night if he derped and fakeclaimed for some reason. Obviously it doesn't make sense cause he'd just flip scum, and I realised it right away. It happens.

[Drezi]

And even if they kill you, your kill goes off aswell.

[Drezi]

I was getting ahead of myself with how he went about expecting to be NK-d and not being able to make his kill*

ebwop

[Drezi]

ABR, let's say I believe you're town. You do the same too. Who is scum then?

[Drezi]

You're townreading TTH. Would it be Lalendra House Nacho then? Do you think Lalendra could be scum with ika after voting him 3 days straight?

I hate going after players like her, because they are so easy to make everyone jump on due to noone having strong opinions for/against them either.

[Drezi]

So I'd much rather go after possible partners. We lynch lalendra she flips town, and Riabi has no idea whatsoever who to kill, because noone really would look out of place jumping on her wagon, she didn't really attack anyone etc.

[Drezi]

I hope I managed to explain now why I don't think lynching her is a good idea, even if you think she's scum.

[Drezi]

I don't think she's the most likely scum in the first place, and flipping her would be minimal info for you to figure out who's scum and shoot correctly.

[Drezi]

This is endgame, and we're not trying to guess who is most likely to be scum individually without regards to any assiciations, and your vigshot the following night etc.

[Drezi]

So really everyone should come up with more detailed plans, not just "hey I think X is scummy". Who are probable to be in a scumteam together based on interactions, and who are the common figures in the scumteams you find plausible, and lynch there etcetc.

[Drezi]

Scum doesn't like to do this, because it could implicate their scummates should they end up being lynched, or also if their plan goes through and it ends up lynching town. Scum just wants to lynch someone without pointing at anyone else, someone who can be lynched without exposing themselves too much as a team.

[Drezi]

If I say Sakura Metal and pisskop are scum together, go lynch them guys, then Sakura and Metal won't like my plan, even if they found pisskop scummy. If I just said hey look pisskop is scummy, lynch him! They might very well go ahead. From scum's perspective this way it's so much easier to push through a mislynch by singling out someone without calling out anyone else as scum.

[Drezi]

And we pretty much need to lynch correctly from now on, so we really need to agree about 2 people at least, and decide who we lynch of those AFTERWARDS. So scum can't just say hey my buddy is very scummy, but we lynch X first kk.

[Drezi]

If they have no idea who the scum are, then they should have no problem agreeing on more than 1 they wouldn't mind lynched, since only themselves are conftown! scum has a harder time agreeing since they don't want any of their partners included, so it's more likely that we reach a protown majority agreement and disregarding what scum says. And the 2 people next day doesn't necessarily need to include the one left alive, based on the flip.

[Drezi]

What the hell can they do about it? Getting out more opinions and stances is always good in the first place.

[Drezi]

Well with 8 players 1 ika 1 yourself and 3 scum in there if you have a few townreads you can list the rest as "would lynch" for example or if you have scumreads than those.

[Drezi]

What do you actually think of Lalendra? Why couldn't the vote on Lalendra be distancing?

I think she could be scum. And it's not like I automatically think that vote=connection severed, impossible scumteam. I simply feel that Lalendra here is the optimal mislynch target that scum could get town to compromise on the easiest, without showing themselves too much or picking a fight. Lalendra herself voted ika and Riabi so far, no strong stance against those who actually should be the choice here, I don't think flip would help the vigshot and next day too much either.

I'm basing my reads this much on whole team possibilities is because singling out a single person and convincing myself that "yeah they could be scm I guess" is recipe for disaster here.

[Drezi]

D1 wagons:

Spoiler:

SC wagon at it's peak:

Votecount 1.05

SIR CYANIDE

- 5 - Lalendra, Always Mafia,

Sakura

,

Metalcyanide

, Albert B. Rampage

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Ika
House - 2 -

Riabi

,

pisskop

Ika - 1 - House

Sakura

- 1 - Drezi
Nacho - 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nacho

Dooku wagon at it's peak:

Votecount 1.13

Ika - 5 - Always Mafia, Lalendra,

Riabi

, House,

Metalcyanide

Albert B. Rampage - 2 -

Sakura

,

pisskop

Metalcyanide

- 2 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi

Sakura

- 2 -

NJAC

, Ika

SIR CYANIDE

- 1 - Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: Nacho

Votecount 1.18

(LYNCH)

Metalcyanide

- 7 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura

, House,

pisskop

, Albert B. Rampage, ika
ika - 4 - Always Mafia, Lalendra,

Riabi

,

Metalcyanide

Sakura

- 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nacho

D2 wagons:

Spoiler:

Votecount 2.01

ika - 4 - Drezi, Albert B. Rampage, Lalendra,

NJAC

NJAC

- 1 - Always Mafia

pisskop

- 1 - House

Not Voting: Nacho, ika,

Riabi

,

Sakura

,

pisskop

Votecount 2.02

ika - 4 - Drezi, Lalendra,

NJAC

, House

NJAC

- 3 - Always Mafia, Nacho, Albert B. Rampage

Not Voting: ika,

Riabi

,

Sakura

,

pisskop

Votecount 2.03

(LYNCH)

NJAC

- 6 - Always Mafia, Nacho, Albert B. Rampage,

Sakura

,

pisskop

, ika
ika - 4 - Drezi, Lalendra,

NJAC

, House

Not Voting:

Riabi

We have Always Mafia (TTH) and Lalendra tagging along on the two main wagins D1, with ABR giving it a push later on the first, House joining in on the second, then AM and Lal staying on ika and both House and ABR pushing the lynch wagon.

It doesn't appear on the votecounts, but ABR joined the ika wagon first 765, and soon changed his mind and jumped on the Metal wagon 774 that got lynched.

D2 we have AM (TTH) starting the wagon on our cop, ABR, Lalendra and House joining my ika wagon. After Nacho gave NJAC a push, ABR decides to swap to NJAC aswell, two town joins bam ika happens.

I still have a good feeling lynching TTH and ABR too.

[Drezi]

Nacho slot (RachMarie) has not played at all D1 so it's natural that there's no votes. He voted NJAC D2 and that's about it.

[Drezi]

Vote: Drezi

Spoiler:

Drezi is a crap push, ABR, and I'm betting you know that too.

But if you think he's scum, why are you telling him this? I mean I'm sure you know scum will have to bullshit something, so why are you surprised disappointed, scolding call it what you will?

Also you know I'm ok with ABR so you can vote him!

[Drezi]

NJAC

- 6 - Always Mafia, Nachomamma8, Albert B. Rampage,

Sakura Hana

,

pisskop

, ika
ika - 4 - Drezi,

Lalendra

,

NJAC

, House

Metalcyanide

- 7 -

SIR CYANIDE

, Drezi,

Sakura Hana

, House,

pisskop

, Albert B. Rampage, ika
ika - 4 - VictorDeAngelo,

Lalendra

, Riabi,

Metalcyanide

Sakura Hana - 1 -

NJAC

Not Voting: Nachomamma8

The two lynch wagons from Days 1 and 2 are roughly the same. Four names show up on both those wagons (the majority). Contrast this to the ika counterwagon.

The only name in common between the two days is Lalendra.

Two different sets of people tried, and failed, to lynch ika on Days 1 and 2. You could argue that the scum team just rotated and different scum pushed the ika wagon, but I think that's unlikely and

I think those wagon compositions are quite town.

(ika, Riabi, Nacho) or (ika, ABR, Nacho) scum teams make lots of sense

I don't see Lalendra here!

I think it's Lalendra, ABR, and ika.

So how did it start to make sense since then? Nacho seemed to make a lot of sense in both compositions back then, now he's all but gone in favor of Lalendra!

[Drezi]

You made post 1045 when I asked who are those who'd even make sense as scum with ika. Lalendra was nowhere to be found, because regardless of her individual level of scumminess, she has been wanting ika lynched 3 days straight, and I think we agreed that it's not likely to be a bus from her. This hasn't changed afaik. Also if Nacho made all the sense as scum with ika, why did he drop out now? From 1045 it looked like ika-Nacho combination was the staple, since he was the one included in both combinations.

[Drezi]

I'd also be interested in hearing from Lalendra, what she thinks about you guys saying she's scum, and scum with ika especially.

[Drezi]

Also it'd be quite nice if ika did something, but I guess that's too much to hope for, we're playing this with an IKA BOT in the game of unknown alignment, that can't post and will hammer instantly when someone reaches L-1. This could become a new game mode I think!

[Drezi]

Lynching ika today is like saying "Jesus take the wheel". I'm not about that plan.

Mhm.

[Drezi]

The consistency of TTH and ABR are out of this world.

[Drezi]

ABR: "oh let's lynch Drezi, no Lalendra, no Drezi, no let's lynch ika just lynch anyone already."

)

[Drezi]

Lynching ika today is like saying "Jesus take the wheel". I'm not about that plan.

Vote: ika

You don't even have any line of thinking, you just go around and trying to get anyone lynched at this point, with zero consistency, making absolutely empty statements playing on town's fears like that bullshit:

We're not going to win with him but we might without him.

Which, is absolutely ridiculous coming after the first quote, you made before this day.

[Drezi]

I'm pointing out all this crap about these two and they don't even make an attempt at giving an explanation just brush the issues away, trying to redirect attention to other stuff, or ignoring it completely. What does that tell you.

[Drezi]

Lalendra don't be so stupid please, have you even read the thread.

[Drezi]

Ok, I give up.

[Drezi]

Give up if you must, you may be town but your freakouts aren't going to help us. I don't take kindly to being called stupid over a game, so calm the fk down.

Look sorry, but I thought that if you're town you need to wake up. I've explained it quite a few times already why I believe that even if there's a chance that ika is scum, lynching him is not the best chance we have at winning this game. And you just voted him again saying he's your biggest scumread as if nothing happened. You don't need to agree with me, but at least you should give some kind of argument that hasn't been refuted already. If you're scum, then sure I understand why you're voting him without all the care in the world.

[Drezi]

Neither does the rest of the wagon, apparently

Scum wants to lynch town obviously. That's why there's a wagon there, with votes coming from people who wanted to lynch you, me or whoever they can. How can you rationalize you being right by people being on the wagon?

Do you believe that they're all town with you there, and me and Nacho are scum 100%? Because Riabi is conftown, and only we are not voting ika, and there are 3 scum total so if that's what you think, you'd have to be just as sure about us being scum aswell. Does that make sense?

[Drezi]

Actually the fact that Nacho still hasn't hammered makes me want to think that town!ika - scum!Nacho isn't likely, since he could've pretty easily hammered him, without looking scum as he said he would've considered voting ika, if it wasn't for the ika!vig possibility which isn't an issue now. scum!ika - scum!Nacho doesn't seem the likeliest scenario either, as Nacho is the only one that still hasn't distanced himself from ika, so it'd make sense for him to bus ika here if he was scum. This makes me want to think that Nacho is town.

That means that the scum 3 is among the 4 on wagon+ika, that means at least 2 scum on ika wagon. And with that there's the fact that pretty much everyone on the ika wagon has already distanced themselves from ika so much, that I don't think they'd need any further bussing at this point, so I still think ika is more likely town than not.

So hello there, whole scumteam sitting on the ika wagon )

[Drezi]

Btw I think Lalendra is the least likely scum out of the four. Not because her play is townie at all, but more like the fact that the other three have been subtly or not so subtly testing the waters to see how well recieved a push on her would be, and the ika wagon afterwards makes more sense that way aswell, since getting 2 of Lalendra Riabi and Nacho to vote must've seem like an easier option, given that Lalendra is tunneling ika, and Riabi voted him aswell before, plus Nacho hasn't been strictly against it either.

While the way House is still playing around randomly doesn't make me feel good about him anymore at all, sure he got by doing that in the earlier days but it'd be time to get serious if it wasn't just a cover for the scummm.

[Drezi]

TBH I do feel a bit uneasy about you thinking about vigging her, since I'm seeing the others as likelier scum, especially if you end up lynching ika and he flips town (since that would be our last shot at staying in the game then), but I still consider her as possible scum as stated above, just the weakest of the 4 due to reasons I've explained now and before aswell. Not sure what you mean about points applying to you?

[Drezi]

You're conftown, you can do whatever the hell you want, without appearing scummy at all. But given that the rest has been doing that who I consider scum now, I'm thinking she still has a chance of being town.

[Drezi]

Yeah they could, but they are my scumreads for other reasons and that makes my scumread on Lalendra weaker in turn, that's all.

[Drezi]

I don't even know how they can push me, I'm making my stance clear, write what I'm thinking and detail how it changes, while they just go around pointing at different people and throw around empty rethorical phrases, geez.

[Drezi]

Do you mind outlining some of these other reasons for me? ATM, I'm leaning towards shooting Lal, if that makes you uncomfortable, you might want to convince me otherwise.

But that's literally all most posts! And I don't want to shoulder calling the vigshot aswell, I already took enough responsibility with the stance I'm taking. I made it clear what I'm thinking, you make sure to REREAD what everyone had to say after we flip someone, and decide for yourself then.

[Drezi]

Effort is not indicative of alignment.

True, and not being transparent is sure as hell easy and favorable for scum at the same time.

[Drezi]

If ika was town, he'd already have been hammered and the game would be over.

Yeah, he sure woud have with 3 scum on his wagon if he's town.

[Drezi]

This is why you shoud've shot him last night instead of pisskop on impulse over him calling you scum but w/e. Now ika's just a huge pile of wifom in MyLo, for scum to take advantage of and they clearly do.

[Drezi]

I know there are two townies beyond question, and I have a solid town read on a third.

So please contribute and convince me, because I'm all for lynching ika if you can come up with a likelier scenario than mine, but saying "he's scum trust me" won't cut it.

[Drezi]

Yeah, so you expect town to lynch someone because you said so, without revealing anything, because you don't want to convince scum to bus. This reeks so bad. You're not explaining anything to Riabi either who is conf town, you just expect him to buy your shit "I don't understand but.... ok." Yeah I bet that was the exact response you wanted force with that shitty vague "if you're town stfu" response.

[Drezi]

This is the pinnacle of confident bullshitting, you just say stuff expect others to believe you and refuse to give an explanation for mysterious pro town reasons. Ha-ha.

[Drezi]

Scumposting.

Somebody doesn't like being caught.

You're just proving my point dude.

[Drezi]

Wouldn't it be better to lynch into the ika wagon, and if it dismantles my theory by flipping town, vig ika?

[Drezi]

Yeah I defended him so much that I wanted him fucking vigged last night. I'm town and my thought process for not wanting to lynch the wifom disassociated with everyone else is clear and I have explained it countless times, if you still don't get it I'm sorry.

Or should I just say I'm not listening to scum sorry, so I can be as reasonable as you are right now.

[Drezi]

I think 3 scum is on the ika wagon and he's more likely town. Maybe try thinking from my POV before you come to stupid conclusions.

[Drezi]

Ok House that's it.

[Drezi]

Lynch me today, and kill House, TTH, ABR after I flip town.

[Drezi]

Because at this point I'm that sure that they're the fucking scumteam and they keep bullshitting you and it's the only way to prove I'm town before you waste your vigshot on town, losing us the game.

[Drezi]

Your zero logic declarations seem to have swayed Riabi, and right after he voiced doubt towards me due to simply not thinking from my POV, you jump in to tell him to vig me. I am sure you're scum, sorry.

[Drezi]

Blah, blah, I made it clear who I think is scum from the get go. You just shift your reads based on how the game is swinging.

Yes, we are.

VOTE: Riabi

I screwed up here telling you too soon how fucking stupid it is to vote him, but at that point I thought you could be the vig that killed pisskop or the IC, and that allowed you to back out way too easily.

[Drezi]

1364

[Drezi]

It's so obvious that House is just trying to get me pissed off, which apparently makes me look scummy, duh.

[Drezi]

That's why I find it strange that Riabi reads that as scummy.

[Drezi]

The order of flip is different, ika is distanced from everyone at this point, ika flip first wouldn't help choosing correct NK target as much imo.

I'm not sure about what you said about him, or how conclusive that is, I had retarded town act like this too, so I really don't even try to read him at this point, he's wifom and I'm trying to figure him out based on the others who actually play the game.

[Drezi]

Then why wouldn't she say "vig TTH or ABR" instead of "vig House"?

3 scum, 3 names. What's not to understand here, you were the last to reveal itself.

That'll clear up soon enough.

Yeah, that's such a great promise to make in MyLo.

[Drezi]

Who are you referring to here?

ika

[Drezi]

Uhhh what? That post was directed at your idea of lynching anyone BUT ika. Lynching ika has been my stance since like page 4 or 5. How am I being swayed again?

You said you don't think we're the on the same team anymore... What I said is perfectly consistent with what I've been saying before. I think ika is a huge gamble, but if my theory about the 3 scum is wrong, then chances of him being scum would skyrocket pretty much.

[Drezi]

I'm not trying to agree it's not scummy lol. But it's still wifom, and it should have been cleared before MyLo. Here I prefer to act on normal reads first.