8:4 Vanilla Nightless [TM2015] - GAME OVER

[Zar]

I'm basically going to start by posting my reads from my skim after switching and then go over the thread tomorrow, when I'll have some time. I don't really have very strong reads or reliable meta that I'm superconfident to work with. I basically have only played with Nacho here, Sotty and Eddie from this ensemble that I can remember (Albert doesn't really count, he did have a very short scum-performance in ADwD before replacing out), and my experience with both Nacho and Sotty has been through Hydras.

UNVOTE

I don't really agree with the MS scumread. The one slot I'm mostly scumreading from my skim is Seraphim, mostly because I thought the post with the reads was something I felt as super fakeable and the argument that the wagon on him is BS because there's no case to defend against feels like something scum would say, along with the "if anyone in my wagon wants to ask me anything"... it's easy as scum to basically put themselves in a position that shifts the burden into other people and one only needs to react. I feel like Hoopla can be scum too for discussing theory rather than engaging people and questioning them to get reads or at least giving her thoughts on them other than simply focusing on being removed. Also, I can see the logic on the Eddie scumread but I think I need to see more of this slot before getting a read, I mean I just came out of a game where Eddie claimed to being town but part of the scum faction (as town), so <_<.

I don't have a chuck load of novel reads, I do agree with Empire on the ZZZX and ABR townreads so far. From ZZZX, I like the points ZZZX has brought up that I can remember (particularly bringing up the idea of building up a town block and the concerns of not cluttering up the thread), I also liked his exchange with ABR where he was trying to get a read of him outside the wgeurts/ABR argument. Regarding ABR, his posts come across as a bit self-serving, and uncalled for but it's why I like him for it? Specially the not wanting to be told what people thing and the condescending tone unto wgeurts, I wouldn't expect scum to be that pushy early on since it basically puts them in an antagonistic position. And while this isn't reliable meta, i'm influenced by the only time I played with him he ended replacing out of the scumslot, so I don't feel like he'd be as aggressively engaged here if he were scum.

One thing though

Nacho

: regarding the question to wgeurts, Empire had been thinking wgeurts was town for a while, but before stating it he wanted to see how wgeurts reacted to the question regfan asked him to relay in his stead. Basically, he was trying to see if Regfan could get a read on wgeurts himself.

[Zar]

Checking in. Still need to fully catch up.

MS, ZZZX, Zar, chat with your teams. I want you on board here. MS, I know you are, ZZZX same, Zar, just chat with Regfan. He's the best fucking player on this site, bar none.

AS LONG AS YOU TELL ME I'M NOT GONNA BE PLAYING PROXY HERE, but certainly. I'm also waiting for Empire to wake up to talk a little about Nacho, because I'm finding him scummy here and I'd like him to weigh in as well. I don't like how it feels like he was lining up to vote Seraphim and then suddenly have a 180 degree unexplained change of heart when he was alling him a very good vote.

Speaking of Serpahim, there's one thing I want to ask himWhy's your team's opinion so adamant to talk about declaring token use?

[Zar]

He was talking, and then he wasn't talking.
Why do you think my read changed, Zar?

Basically, you responded this to Metal Sonic's question:

I want your thoughts on the following players:

Seraphim
GreyICE
Albert B. rampage
Any updates on your wgeurts read?


If members on your team (including ffery) could chip in that'll be great!

I think all of these people are town.
I think Hoopla is scum.

But before you said the following earlier:

Sorry for being contrary guys!

I still think wolf slot is a fine vote, although a bit less so.
Sotty, unfortunately, is forming up to be an ok vote at this stage.
Seraphim is a great vote.

I'd like to bring Sotty into the game at this point because I find I do best when I have a couple of sounding boards in thread to work with and now that Empire's gone, Sotty is probably the player I feel the most comfortable with, but I'd like her in the game and talking about things instead of letting Grey dictate interactions and her just sitting on the peripheral.

I also love Hoopla's entrance in a "good player" sort of way, although the Eddie vote doesn't seem like the strongest direction we can take at this stage.

and I don't really see what leads to the change, so it kinda looks to me like it's something that could be done to take off some heat off a partner without looking like you're defending them.

[Zar]

And, if you're going to be sensitive to playing by proxy, then don't wait on Empire to push a read on me. If you wait for Empire to substantiate the read, then I'm probably going to deal with Empire's read. If you push the read yourself, then I will deal with your read.

Also, I don't mean like I'm going to go lone wolf and suddenly try to ride this without the team pitching in, I prefer the team environment since I have three other set of eyes that can collaborate in and look at the game and help me figure out if I'm missing something that may be glaringly obvious? But I don't want to just be cornered into playing delivery boy. I might get a full compiled set of reads from the Circlejerk as soon as they all have a chance.

[Zar]

I'm doing over a detailed read of the thread to catch up. Currently up to page 20. Bear with me, I will be fully caught up by tomorrow and have some team insight as well then. The reads wil be updated accordingly should there be any changes.

This is what I have so far:

READS

TOWN
ABR
Metal Sonic
GreyICE
wgeurts
ZZZX
Nachomamma
Hoopla
Kagami/Silver
Eddie
Seraphim
Sotty
SCUM

Spoiler: Reads

Albert B. Rampage.

Think ABR is pretty obvtown. The whole wgeurts/SW dilemma betweeen 74-75 is aggressive and something I don't think scum would bank on early on, specially if you're trying to gather enough cred to look appeasing. I also like how ABR is took the lead in directing the comments in 166-168. Overall, all of his activity comes across as actively analyzing motivations and trying to get into the mindset of the players reacing (like 204, and him trying to sort out Seraphim's behavior in 369, 371, 373, and the analysis of 399).

Metal Sonic

I've been giving some thought to Empire's concerns on MetalSonic's lie in 18, and I think he would have reasons to lie regardless of alignment about the tokens. I can see Metal Sonic's comment onto Sotty in 127 as showing transparency of thought process and interest in discerning her alingment. I think I can follow MetalSonic's line of thought regarding wgeurts in #136 as of why it would be something to find suspicious (particularly, if you take into consideration wgeurts himself admittedly made a conscious post that would lead him to be pursued). Similar thoughts with 236, especially liking that it seems Metal Sonic is tryig to figure out alignments. some of his steams of consciousness come across as unfiltered and natural (like 240) so he gives off a relaxed feel which I would associate with town.

GreyICE

I think GreyICE's comment to ZZZX's thoughts in 102 reads town on tone. The point on ZZZX's content to contribution ratio in 104 was accurate and valid. I can follow the thought process to pursue Sotty from 119 and the reasoning provided in 140 to strengthen the read. It feels like GreyICE has read between the lines in sotty's response. Thought his 214 regarding sotty seemed like a very detailed, organized case on why Sotty is likely scum here and GreyICE's analysis comes accross as genuine and unbiased in it. And ICE's observation into Eddie's reaction in 317 seems fairly accurtate with what I was thinking so far.

wgeurts

I liked his 64 looks better, re: the questioning directed to MS and ZZZX, along with 67, where wgeurts pressuring ABR for an explanation for his vote on SilverWolf. I also do like how in 69 he's basically demanding for an explanation to the MS early town reads. I didn't understand why if wgeurts was trying to pick on ABR's brain in 71 he gave him ABR a cop-out to respond to him early on if he wanted to poke him for an answer. I get he you thought that it wasn't enough to change his vote from ABR then, but you did give him an explanation yourself to get out of the question asking him. Also, 139 is something I can see coming from town!wgeurts (Re: ABR vote push), since it's something I would have done to a slot with player I've been in a game before and that I'd have enough comparative meta to use as a reference. (Re: pushing ABR for a reasoning), even if I do not agree with the reasoning he's using to vote MetalSonic which seems to stem from MS's suspicions of him. I do agree with GI who said it looks like wgeurts seems to be trying to sort the game out (even if it's somehwat unconventional). TBH by 296 I'm starting to get a bit bored by the wgeurts's tunnel onto Metal Sonic for scumreading him and would like to see that slot concentrating on scumhunting elsewhere.

ZZZX

Still thinking town, but not as strong as a read as I had caught my impression during my skim. 19 I felt was a genuine town-tell, like a stream of consciousness that I think ZZZX wouldn't have slipped naturally if he were mafia. While I am townreading MetalSonic, thought the read handed out in 58 seemed rather pedestrian. I didn't like ZZZX's immediate reaction to Albert's vote on wgeurts in 76 and 78; especially because it looked like ZZZX is quick to deflect from focusing on scumhunting to use an argument like a "bad play" to vote. The reasoning is less related to thinking ABR is scum and more of a dislike of playstyle, which is an easier route to go if you're scum because it's a mental way to justify pushing a player. I also didn't like the reaction stemming from GreyICE's 102... particularly the feel of a "No, You" kind of response and a reactionary vote and consequent reactionary scumread haded in 129-130. I did like ZZZX's questioning of Nacho's actions, since hiss comments are directly related to Sotty GreyICE but as he points out, Nacho votes away without explaining where the vote's coming from instead.

Nachomamma

,
I'm found Nacho a bit scummy because of his unexplained shift on Seraphim. I also feel Nacho has thrown in a few towntells early on that aren't hard to fake townread for 38 but I feel like he's competent enough to manipulate enough to use such a comment to appear townish. As for 133 I don't really think it's alignment relevant, as I think scum!Nacho would know how to avoid GreyICE picking a fight with Sotty for instance if they're partners. Of what I read so far, the only thing I'm liking from Nacho so far is 157, as it would appear that he's analyzed what wgeurts had said about to try to understand the MS/wgeurts argument so
181-183 look like fairly transparent streams of consciousness.

Hoopla

Hoopla's SW vote in 225 and relegating to sheeping nacho onto that wagon early and shifting the responsibility of the entry vote "wanting to help nacho" seems convenient? I find her focus on theory rather than hunt suspicious, but I'm less convinced on Hoopla based on some of the people that have gone after her.

SilverWolf/Kagami

I didn't like Silverworf's entrance in posts 6 and 55, to me seems a bit overexplanatory and like a post someone who's concerned of their own image would be focused on. As far as Kagami goes, in 351 the logic behind Sotty flipping town because GreyICE wants to lynch her looks convoluted, especially because it seems to be based in the flawed assumption that sotty can't be scum because GreyICE thinks she's lying and apparently in a poor manner and if sotty's a legendary scum player then the first assumption can't be true?.

EddieFenix

The stated reasons in 207 to call GreyICE scum seem superficial and OMGUSsy; no explanation for the wgeurts scumread provied. Eddie's 217-230 look like a Chainsaw onto GreyICE after the Sotty case.

Seraphim.

Still think the list of empty reads in 219 followed by the SW vote feels like easy contribution. 348 I don't really like how Seraphim has then changed his mind on Sotty as the wagon picked interest, just like ABR pointed out. 485 from ABR is spot on on some of the inconsistencies in Seraphim's reasoning to vote. I also don't really like how Seraphim tried to shift the focus of being questioned as opposed to interacting when he said

Sotty

Sotty's 112 feels like an awful self-aware post. I mean, mostly because the entry is about her activity level and a side-comment on Nacho's entry comment on her. Stemming from my limited experience from the Wire, I would've expected Sotty to be more engaging questioning to discern alignments and scumhunting since in my limited experience with her in the Wire, she seemed a more straightforward player there than she's being here. Also, the deflection to Hoopla of GreyIcE's vote on her strikes me like a semantical argument I'd expect from a compentent player that can't find a better reason to vote. I also don't like her reaction to the suspicions in 208, since I don't see how GI has been shifting the goalpost, as sotty seems to be accusing GI for.

[Zar]

Hi. I'm fully caught up.

Some quick thoughts:

Didn't really like the chuck load of AtE that came spewed by Seraphim from his wagon from posts 492, 498, and 502.

I like GreyICE's comments on Hoopla in 539. I could see how the entry could be interpreted as townish because while it may have been more advantageous to keep a more reserved position early on if there were more vocal and charismatic players around; so mediating and trying to build consensus could have been protown if Hoopla had actually engaged in it.

Nacho's 538 and 580 make me paranoid of the slot, mostly because I feel like he might be using the "Empire left and Zar is here" card to keep my slot in the lynch pool because he might consider me an easier target to mislynch than possibly if any of my other teammates were here.

Still have Sotty as my favorite lynch, right now. Didn't like her 511, which basically looks like a blatant Hoopla defense and a deflection when being called out on it to ABR with the "I've defended you too!" remark, since it's fairly evident it's not the same case. In fact, I feel like a lot of Sotty's posting has been reactive, even when she was off the confrontation with GreyICE.

VOTE: Sotty

[Zar]

*EBWOP

To clarify a bit on my post, I meant to what I feel it says about GreyICE.

P.Edit: ABR: I just feel more confident on Sotty

[Zar]

Zar is a weaker town due to lack of STUFF, but I was basking in the glow of Empire's towniness. He's basically there because I don't have another super strong town read at this point. I agree he needs to be more engaged.
Zar, I'm pretty sure I hydra'd with Zach in some form of a Wire game, I don't strictly remember. So not only is your meta probably out dated (Unemployed then not now = less time to thread sit) but is also diluted with Zachrulez meta who has a much better town game than I. I don't remember us having played in many games together so your meta point is junk. Aren't all posts "self aware"? I'm not sure what exactly you mean when you bring that up as a point against me, feels like filler. Also just because we don't agree on GreyICE doesn't make me scum. In other words elaborate more on what I have actually done.

Well, by self-aware, I'm talking about the sense I got from your post here:
There's a comment on justifying why your activity is low without being prodded about it; I find scum has a tendency to feel more called out by this and to want to let others know what's been keeping them away more than town players without being asked or commented on.

I also thought your 511, was basically a blatant Hoopla defense and a deflection after being pointed out by saying "but I've defended [ABR] too!" I don’t think the two cases are comparable (ABR being very active and engaging, Hoopla being suspicious).

As far as the meta goes, I'm mostly evaluationg my experience with you and trying to factor in what I would expect from you in terms of behavior; I think it was mostly you in the sottyrulez hydra and yeah; it definitely is an older game and not the paramount to why I think you're scum here, but I think it can be put into the context.

[Zar]

im speaking hypothetically

Well, Nacho is a slot I'm suspicious about right now but I'd like Empire to weigh in because he was townreading him last time we discussed the game.

[Zar]

Why not Zar? Zar hasn't done anything vaguely townish. He's made a weak push on me, then disappeared.

I should be able to post more regularly now, if that makes you feel better? You also have seen me play before and are probably the only player here that could have been a member of the Circlejerk if you wanted to! Curious why you haven't brought up my usual play, since you have access to Westeros and that micro we played in where I was the "megatron hydra".

[Zar]

Nacho

: when you're back, I really would like if you could go on and explain more your Seraphim read from 648.

Seraphim

:

Speaking of Serpahim, there's one thing I want to ask him: Why's your team's opinion so adamant to talk about declaring token use?

The reason I asked you this is basically because Seraphim I'd like you to tell me if there's any reason why I shouldn't think you would have bid scum tokens for this setup, given that your team seemed reluctant to have it discussed.

[Zar]

GreyICE: Empire left some updated thoughts saying he feels like he's inching closer to boxing the scum out through PoE in this game with Hoopla's flip. He has ABR as pretty obvtown (although he's aware this is very much a preach to the choir kind of thing) based on the meta assumptions (which are mostly memory, since he doesn't have as much time to devote to doing extended meta scrutinies anymore). As far as GreyICE goes, he has him as "holy fuck" town too. He thinks GreyICE's argument regarding Kagami/SilverWolf is something he would expect GreyICE to pursue as town. He really liked his scumread on Kagami, and thinks the suspicion voiced about Hoopla's activity level and not banking on the town plan she laid out was super genuine. As far as Metal Sonic goes, he does have some reservations with the tokens as he pointed out in 106, but was able to do a superficial meta research on him and see he tends to throw himself into the fray as town, which is what appears he's doing here.

He's no longer town reading Nacho, though. He did like the "let's not over-inflate the thread" + spammy apology posts because it's something that he has seen his scum team use in the past as tactics. He also liked the SilverWolf Vote and thinks they could be seeing the Kagami vs. Grey/Sotty in a similar way (Kagami's "I'm okay with a Sotty lynch purely due to vengeful element" in posts 341, 349 and 351 reads as opportunistic (and if it's a case of sotty!Town vs Grey!town then Kagami is likely to be scum from that alone)... He really isn't fascinated by his scum block in 614 because despite he's said Seraphim is a good vote, but then called him town and said he was reviewing the thread after it, it looks more like keeping options open w/r/t Seraphim. He also thought the Hoopla inclusion there while not mentioning her other than to state she liked her entrance based on play style was kind of fake, specially since Hoopla then was one of his top 2 scumreads in 620. In the end he feels conflicted about him and would like me to engage more with him as he feels he may be able to read him correctly.

Nobody seems particularly interested in Sotty right now, and I agree with Empire that Kagami is a good vote so:

VOTE: Kagami

[Zar]

Zar is feeling... Very bland. His reasoning for voting me seems devoid of any real feeling. Like he is going along for the ride. Maybe it's the catch up posts.

It takes me some time to get into games, I tend to find day ones tedious, I mostly prefer hydraing because I can step back and read and leave comments to the other head and then organize them accordingly.

Sotty meaning to ask, could you explain your read on our slot in 605? Tbh the weaker townread because I was "basking in Empire's towniness" in 852 is kinda meh?

Also, can you please explain how exactly you came to the conclusion of town-reading Kagami from her ISO in 640? Because I think the logic there is pretty terrible and I frankly I don't see what you're seeing.

[Zar]

So you think that Nacho is possibly bussing Kagami?

I just feel more confident with voting Kagami right now.

[Zar]

Seraphim

: Did you have any other basis behind your Hoopla scumread? The only reason I see for your read of her is the post/content ratio, which is something that I think you could use against other players here.

[Zar]

Going over Nacho, I don't really like how his read of Seraphim feels odd, to me it reads kind of like distancing. It's also odd that the opposite is also true; Seraphim basically stated Nacho was one of his scumreads in 437 and even mentioned his teammates agreed with it, which had apparently solidified by [post]966[/[post], but there wasn't any reasoning for it in the thread. Regfan suggested this morning it could be a potential partnership.

Seraphim

: can you please explain the reasoning behind your Nacho read?

[Zar]

wgeurts: I don't really agree with your Sotty read.

His first post (112) starts my town read on him. He's already starting to figure out the game, trying to see who's town and who's not.

I don't think we're seeing the same post 112.

I like this thinking. There are several players I am more than willing to bloc up with. (Hoopla, ABR, Nacho, Empire)

Hoopla, for once hadn't even posted when Sotty said this. Why would Sotty want to townbloc Hoopla already if she hadn't even entered the thread at that point?

yea the activity is digustingly low for a game start

Well I work all day in a job where I have no internet access. Expect my posting to be around this time every evening, weekends are more accessible.

I tend to see comments like these as red flags. As I mentioned before, Sotty felt compelled to comment on this on her entry as opposed to other game things ... I tend to feel scum is always more aware of their activity levels than town, and most often trying to explain what's keeping them away from the thread.

and her reaction to GreyICE is bad:

Because "tokens" is bullshit and voting me over Hoopla in that respect is even worse.

First, why is discussing tokens BS? I'm fairly confident (and so is Regfan) that it's a good as any place to start. I frankly don't see what motivations anyone could have to not keep from talking about this information unless you used your tokens to get scum in a setup. Pointing at Hoopla feels like a "look at her" deflection more than it is a justified response.

Then there's the interaction with GreyICE which I believe is TvT. Although his defences are a little shoddy I believe that he's truely convinced that GreyICE is completely pushing him off "lies", much as I did when MetalSonic voted me. He's received the similar tunnel-vision type play I admit I then got after MetalSonic and is trying to show everyone ICE is completely wrong and is early on biased into thinking ICE is scum for all his upcoming posts.

The whole argument on Sotty's OMGUSsy reaction to GreyICE's push and the focus on it reads as her being over-defensive and like a good reason to actually avoid scumhunting or posting other reads.

There's also the fact that he finds everyone that's voting him is scummy and opportunistic. This is something I do myself as town when I'm getting frustrated when a wagon forms on me. As when you're town you know at some point scum will join it, so you try to show the world that as you are convinced there are scum on your wagon. The problem is, people don't think you're town and therefore it makes arguing "scum are on my wagon" a really weak argument. This type of behaviour is something I'd expect from town, it doesn't really make sense as scum.

I think this you are underassuming Sotty's experience; I would think Sotty is perfectly capable of acting town (besides, making the statement that there's scum in my wagon) is not that difficult to fake to avoid being lynched as scum (both Nacho and GreyICE have already pointed out her scum game was legendary, so I don't think it would be above her to fake that sort of thing).

How exactly is 640 a nice post of hers? The logic used to townread Kagami just feels irrational. Plus, Kagami's logic to jump on GreyICE feels a lot more opportunistic than a valid argument.

[Zar]

Nacho: singer wanted me to ask you who do you think compromised from the GI wagon and why you think they did so on Hoopla instead of Kagami?

[Zar]

His reads list in post 717 is rather conveniently structured. He's got a Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie/Kagami lynch-pool; basically a broad group of those that the most people suspect of being scum. Hoopla's also nicely in the middle meaning he can transition to her quite easily if wanted, this was when discussion on hoopla was starting and hadn't yet brought up a wagon or strong scum conviction. He also doesn't vote anyone strengthening my thought that he was setting up to cherry-pick a good wagon after waiting a little more.

Most of the reasoning behind my scumread of Eddie had to do with the way he jumped over GI to defend Sotty, who I am scumreading. I’m still not over that I just came out of a game with Eddie where he actually claimed to be a member of the scum faction being town (more awkwardly, a town member of the scum faction), so in part I’m still wary whether his play here was just bad or scum. What you seem to interpret as flexible is just me trying to read behind the motivations people have to do things; I normally run a million scenarios in my head when something catches my attention and I tend to second-guess myself a lot.

Most of his nacho scum read is because nacho town reads seraphim while Zar doesn't making nacho suspicious.

No. My nacho doesn't come from mostly from the town read of Seraphim. It has to do more with the two-fold interaction between Seraphim and Nacho (from his side, the reason to town-read him feels lazy) and the way Nacho has been soft-handling my slot; I would have expected him to reach out to engage Empire more (regarding that read in specific) without being called out and I feel like the read he’s given me is conveniently murky.

The next day he suddenly agrees with a Kagami lynch, he completely ignored it the day before and now he decides it's worth pushing. He also makes sure that he shows suspicion in nacho, the other likely wagon. Sotty is no longer worth wagoning it appears.

I still think Sotty is worth voting? I'm not townreading her (you calling me out about Kagami makes me feel warm and fuzzy about your slot, OTOH Sotty parroting you in this right after feels opportunistic).

Zar never did join any of the late game wagons, he road his sotty vote to lynch. I don't like how he did so.

I wasn't particularly feeling the Hoopla wagon because the wagon on her felt like a convenient place to vote as scum, it also rose too quickly to be town driven (which Mina strongly agreed upon), and at the time… The Kagami scumread was in part inherited by way of Empire’s thoughts the SilverWolf slot, but I was not *that* confident Kagami's moon logic regarding GreyICE was likely to come from scum either. My current stance on Kagami is a consensus team read.

[Zar]

Nacho

, I agree with you in regards to Kagami in #1129 (my thinking is she could be avoiding looking at a larger picture by focusing on GreyICE and her reads and votes don’t seem to flow naturally. With regards to your Sotty read, Regfan wants me to mention he doesn’t really find the way she went about defending Hoopla a scum-tell (I disagree, but I’m voicing his thoughts here… he says he’d expect Sotty to genuinely be scared to lynch her D1); what I do agree with him is that Kagami’s #341 and #349 pushing Sotty points away from them being partners, which therefore enforces the stronger scum read on Kagami. As far as the Eddie read goes, it’s a weaker read but the conviction for his pushes seems genuine even if the logic is flawed?

Eddie

; let Mollie know singer acknowledges her Nacho townread, but would like to hear more thoughts from the reasoning behind it to see if she can understand where it’s coming from.

[Zar]

I've been reading the current happenings. Unless you want a wall the size of China in response to EVERYTHING, not every little thing needs a response. Mollie said that if she were in this game, she'd town read him and see from there. It might be my paranoia kicking in, but there's something eating me about Nacho. Going to trust Mollie for now at least until she comes back with something a bit more conclusive. Kagami, for me, is town. Right now, my want for the day is to see GI swing.

Eddie: Can you explain why Kagami is town for you?

Zar / Grey

Actuall Thoughts no nacho?

I like his recent posts better. The way he went about appealing ABR and being encouraging with his townreads feels genuine. He doesn't seem to be freaking out and I gut-liked how he had this post about projecting how things should be after his death.

Nacho two

things:

Can you explain why you're leveling out with Kagami in 1284?

Additionaly, relaying a question from singer regarding your Eddie via Mollie scumread in #1291 - #1293. Did you consider if Mollie's lack of engagement with you may be influenced by her being a replacement into TM?

Oh and

I don't think you see my perspective re: my interactions with your slot. You just replaced out of a game because you didn't want to play delivery boy. I'm a player who absolutely loves Empire, needs to interact with him all the time in order to form a good read there, but didn't get that chance. I wanted to give you space to get into the game and get some reads down before going all EMPIRE EMPIRE EMPIRE because I didn't want to be unfair to you as a player.

Thanks? Except to me it felt that wasn't the case, most of the comments you left seemed to be tailored like "EMPIRE can look town early on that doesn't mean anything"! Which instead of trying to give me space felt more like a side snipe.

[Zar]

Mollie:

Why didn't you explain your original townread of nacho in the first place?

The original question we relayed to Eddie for you was because singer was hoping you'd have confirmed the townread she was getting regarding Nacho (I wasn't particularly feeling him as town because of the way I felt he was handling my slot, but singer insisted you were the authority in reading him).

[Zar]

My reads are currently like this:

Tier 1: ABR, GreyICE, Metal Sonic
Tier 2: ZZZX, wgeurts, Nacho
Tier 3: Kagami, Sotty, ooba, mollie

Anyone in Tier 1 is not up for lynching for me, and I don't think I'll be voting anyone in tier two either today.

mollie

: have your reads changed at all since the discussion from the last couple of pages?

[Zar]

did MOLLIE just say that she is not going to do anything like WTF

I did.

I think that this action by mollie is really deplorable!


It is not a good way to play!


I think you deserve a thorella face! Shame!

Am I too hopeful for expecting mollie to respond to my question?

[Zar]

wat question even i forgot LOL

u shld requote for visibility

mollie: have your reads changed at all since the discussion from the last couple of pages?

[Zar]

can we break this down plz?

kagami, for not posting enough, ooba not posting at all in a game he signed up for, sotty is opportunistic, zar is is somehow cleared by my team and grey is still scum?

do I have it right?

I'm getting an allergic reaction to the sudden "clearance" of my slot without a flip. I mean, I'm already aware I'm town so it's nice to have the acceptance and stuff, but I would like Mollie to explain why her team is allegedly "clearing" me.

[Zar]

Nacho wagon is based off only town and kagami wagon is built up horribly. We gain the most info from lynching nacho, I agree with MS. Half wat through the game again with my reread.

Can you please explain why you think the Kagami wagon is built up horribly?

tbh I just really can't believe the Kagami wagon that sprung went away and evaporated. It's starting to look like the competing wagons in this day seem to sprout as a direct resistance to her lynch.

p.Edit: @Nacho: as much as I loathe being mislynched, I'm on board with your plan.

[Zar]

I will be able to catch up tomorrow. But I would very much like to claim the hammer on Kagami since its the one lynch my whole team has wanted since day 2 started.

[Zar]

I'm guessing Kagami won't be posting a list of Vig shots from glancing at her last couple of posts anyway.

[Zar]

Vote: Kagami

[Zar]

Well, Kagami's flipping town as Zar's scum.

Do you honestly think a slot that didn't even post a list of reads to follow up with can be town?

[Zar]

I'm here now, catching up.

[Zar]

tbh, I don't really get why Nacho wanted GreyICE to be flipped after Kagami since she and Sotty both flipped scum? Because GreyICE's pushes on both of them and the way Kagami jumped with a chainsaw larger than Jason Vorhees's with the Sotty argument in day one in hindsight basically makes him confirmed innocent.

[Zar]

GreyICE, what do you think of Sotty's jump into Eddie in #1421? Do you think it's a likely interaction that would have come from Sotty on a partner?

[Zar]

I have stated in almost all my posts that GreyICE's "conclusion" is wrong. What the hell are you even trying to get at with this extremely weak and false defense of ICE?

ICE has made a weak vote and despite points to the contrary he has continued to sow his opening vote as legit. None of his points have any merit and instead of adjusting his attack or pushing in a different way he just continues to repeat that I'm caught scum event though his theroy works better for Hoopla who is actually known for gambiting. I could believe she spent tokens on either alignment in this game. At this point I'm just worried I'm letting myself get pulled in by GreyICE and I would really like to see Hoopla post.

Wgeurts was looking shady when he voted ABR and it came out he has played with him before, just felt opportunistic. Once he hopped off however, he has looked a lot better, I don't hate his MS vote who seems to be all over the place right now. To me, the vote change felt genuine, like he is using it to pressure people he wants answers from. If this is something he normally does with his vote then I'm happy.

This I feel would be a good post for Sotty to mention a partner in.

[Zar]

Spoiler: POST 346

Zar (Large Theme) and Empire (Vanilla Nightless) of Westeros Circlejerk have switched games. They may now post, etc. in their new game. This uses Westeros Circlejerk's one swap.

*Raises eyebrow*

So, who would those people be? Hoopla? Maybe. She's damn good at it. Sotty? A legendary scum player, back for a swan song? Possibly. (I also had Empire down for some reason, which my team assures me was wrong - he prefers town) This seems like an interesting spot to begin poking. Oh, and what a fun time it was.

This is the second time you have called my scum game Legendary, why exactly? I'd love to take a compliment if I deserve it and maybe I did back in 2011 (which I think was the year I won the scummy) But that was a year I played a lot of games and a lot of them were scum. It was the highlight of my mafia career if you want to call it that. My scum game has never been that good since. Not even close. I would much rather play town than anything else even when I was destroying as as scum I still preferred town. Much less stressful for me and overly more enjoyable. So in a game where you can use tokens to sway your alignment there is no way I would ever spend that on scum. Ever. My title is also a play off a wrestling catch phrase as well as the scummy, because I met Zach though wrestling. Your vote is still flawed.

Part of me wants to class Metal as town. He's earnest, his tone feels great. I still don't really know why he is voting me, his points were kinda shitty and he's actually spending most of his time on Wgeurts. More clarification would be good.

Hoopla was blatantly aware that the best town strategy was to form a block because otherwise it would be nearly impossible to get solid scum lynches.

That was her analysis, and she started out playing it as town.

I thought you said town hunting was bad, or were you just talking about the method proposed?

Currently deliberately not commenting on Eddie. I'll come back to him a little later. I wanna see it play out a little more.

Seraphim is a great vote.

I actually agree. Didn't really like his first Metal vote.

I'd like to bring Sotty into the game at this point because I find I do best when I have a couple of sounding boards in thread to work with and now that Empire's gone, Sotty is probably the player I feel the most comfortable with, but I'd like her in the game and talking about things instead of letting Grey dictate interactions and her just sitting on the peripheral.

Message received.

Unvote, Vote: Seraphim

I don't want to lynch Hoopla day one outside a huge scum slip. I don't currently have a huge town read on her, but I am leaning that way because her entrance was super smooth. Plus I love Hoopla which may or may not leave me biased.

I'm not feeling the Seraphim vote could makes a lot of sense for a partner for Sotty here (it kinda feels like it's Gives sotty a similar escape route to Kagami w/ GreyICE); weak mention of Eddie feels like an attempt to sense general opinion more than a read; again wish-wash read on Metal Sonic (previous had her attacking him) but a bit of a fixation based on his push on wgeurts (previous read was a cancel out of her opinion on the slot).

[Zar]

so the grand plan was for me to swap into this game with nacho in it and point to nacho where I thought sotty's vote on me was opportunistic as fuck and nacho sees it to and then we bloc vote sotty? and that sotty and I were xbussing? and that somehow...I cld get away with it? this makes no sense whatsoever.

Sorry, but I don't really see why not? I've seen people done worse than that. I mean, crossbussing seems almost the ideal scum strategy because it seems to clear people because "no way would they do that!"

Besides, I'm pretty sure something is off somewhere. It's fairly evident I don't make much sense as a partner to Kagami and Sotty based on my play. In addition, I think it's also a fair given GreyICE is CT; so the remaining scum has to be in {wgeurts, ooba, mollie, Metal Sonic, ABR, ZZZX}

So trying to sort through Sotty's interactions seems the best way to find who could the partners be.

[Zar]

ABR, do you think Titus would be up for doing VCA for this game? I think this is the type of setup where that would very beneficial and I think I remember she likes doing it? If she's not up for it, at least could she maybe work through ZZZX's VCA in 2535 (singer mentioned thinking it seemed like it lacked depth, but maybe Titus can elaborate on conclusions from it or work from there)?

[Zar]

Why is he town? cus he does one post every week which is prob crafted to be a mechanic as possible? he didnt do anything deserving of a town read. both me, nacho and prob even grey will tell you that.

I want to vote zar tbh but i dont want to fail nacho

ROBOT HERE DISAGREES WITH FAULTY LOGIC TRAIN.

As in, why are you fundamentally disagreeing with analazying associatives?

And FTR, there's no way I'm going to be your Hoopla 2.0 here. I mean, a big part of your argument for this day has been "follow the Nacho Brick Road" (yes Nacho, you're going to have to pay me royalties after branding your plan), which as much as it got us two scum I will say isn't infallible since I know I'm town and GreyICE is very much confirmed town at this stage. Besides, evaluating and re-reading for partnerships is the actual correct play here since a) there is no such thing as a "scum bloc" anymore and b) rushing out to mislynching is only going to help scum to go about the venge-kills to their benefit.

ZZZX: is there a particular reason you left the VCA up to the Hoopla wagon instead of going further?

[Zar]

Yah, town can be wrong, but where are these opinions even coming from. Wguerts has never asked Sotty a single question. Go back and check. Not even ever. Kagami either. No questions, but reads erupt. He asks lots of people questions too... but not Kagami. Not Sotty.

Actually, I do have a question for wgeurts, back when you wrote the reasons to town read sotty, I responded to your read on her in 1130 but you never followed through. Why didn't you?

[Zar]

ABR keeps repeating that I have produced no content, but I have been here every day posting trying to draw up my reads. Seraphim is still very much my number one shot for scum. I'm starting to wonder a little about Nacho. He is feeling off his game. I was thinking it was because we are team mafia'ing it up but he still hasn't settled down into something that resembles a natural Nacho. GreyICE is a weird one for me. His attacks on me all game have been shitty but when he actually sits back and details things from a whole game preservative I can kinda understand where he is coming from. Metal is all over the place, I feel like he is posting a lot without really saying much. I have a town read on wgeurts, ZZZX and Zar but all of them need to post more (understanding V/LA's) Everyone else is a little bit of a blur because I have been too focused on batting away the attacks on me, but I am hoping to look though over the weekend and sort what is left.

Here Sotty doesn't really give a read on ABR's slot; still pushing Seraphim and has wish-wash on both Nacho and GI. The only other slot she's seems to not mention so far are Kagami and Eddie, Eddie she responded to regarding GreyICE but never commented on her opinion of that slot.

I was going to say I wasn't sure Sotty was the type to forget metioning a partner (I honestly think it's more likely for scum to mention them somewhere) but realize Kagami was avoided talking about here. I guess Kagami was already too much in the limelight and Sotty didn't want to be held to her opinion on that slot at the time?

[Zar]

I'm happy with my Mollie vote right now.

Comes into the game with a strong GreyScum read but never really details why. Acknowledges a bad past with ABR and if they really had such a bad blow out I have no idea why she would want to jump in this game if not to make ABR look bad. Now the townie lone wolf is just fixated on her and the more personal it gets the worse ABR comes out looking. I can easily believe this was a scum tactic to but ABR back in lynching play. I also didn't like her attack on wgeurts playing credibility. I had no idea about any of those games she was talking about and considering that wgeurts has been playing relatively decently here, it just seemed like a shot below the belt to remove any kind of cred he may have been building in the game. "Watch out for wgeurts he screwed up these games in the past!" There was no need for that. It just looks like she jumped in to bail out Eddie and to just implode the town which she has really succeeded in.

Thinking this through, this looks a bit like throw everything including the kitchen-sink kinda vote on mollie. Since I really doubt Sotty and GreyICE are partnered based on how everything between them went, I'd expect part of her vote here to be reacting to a vote on a partner more than trying to vote for cred, so I'm guessing Sotty/mollie is unlikely.

[Zar]

Alchemist

: can you really ask Titus to look at VCA for this game? I need somebody that's confident working with it to do it here.

[Zar]

Well, tbh I feel like there's pages of pointless AtE here that's less alignment relevant than voting patterns.

[Zar]

Also I'm loving how ZZZX had like a whole Zar doesn't engage me! Protest and then didn't say anything when approached, I guess ROBOTSPEAK is hard to decypher?

[Zar]

there are 2 players that I find it likely that kagami wld go down in the way that she did.

grey and abr. to a lateral possibility degree, metal, which is why I am voting him. pple are giving IMO grey a town pass for dumb reasons and I can't find the words to express what I will feel if abr is scum and pulled this stunt. like I said, it takes butthurt to an astronomical level but his replace was weird since no1 was fighting with him.

Mollie why do you think the reasons to towread GI are dumb? He spent a whole awful lot of time convincing everyone and their mother about SilverWolf/Kagami after she jumped at him to defend Sotty.

[Zar]

you guys have like 12 pages in less than a day what is this Westeros now?

[Zar]

that is a pretty dumb reason to townread some1!

I have seen hardbussing in action even tho I think it is suboptimal play. the place that I am pivoting from is I think there is a reason as to why kagami wld give up in the way that she did. I have to bringing up this piece of discussion but have largely been ignored. however ooba did listen to it when grey brought it up tho which bugged me and I said so.

I think the whole triangular dynamic between GreyICE + Kagami + Sotty points entirely away from this. GreyICE voting Sotty out for the entry and the whole nitpick with the token and the soft direction to Hoopla, Sotty not letting go of the argument as GreyICE kept building up, and then Kagami jumping into the argument when she replaced in looks more like an interaction of a partner defending another from an adversary than a triple partner setup? It looks too risky and unprofitable to me.

[Zar]

Its about understanding, if you engage with me in a conversation i can know your allignment from your replies. everyone who played with me has at least an idea of how i am bad at reading usually and can only analyse stuff that i engaged in. You have been doing nothing this game but i actually am interested. give me your read list please?

My current readlist is

Town
GreyICE
Mollie
ooba
Metal Sonic
ZZZX
Alchemist
wgeurts
Scum

I feel like wgeurts is the most likely partner to Sotty and Kagami here; ABR/Alchemist works as a partner too; I think Sotty's interactions with mollie point away from them being likely partners; Seraphim/ooba could be a Sotty Partner but the whole voting thing sotty did parking her vote on him feels like pulling away. Metal Sonic feels town to me by play but Sotty was rather ambivalent on his opinion about him and was in the wrong side of the tracks. ABR/Alchemist seems to be a good partner for Sotty based on the supposed townread and derail of both wagons. Wgeurts had a strong townread on Sotty, yet never responded to my read on her and the interactions between him and Sotty seem like the type a partner would have. Have not looked at Kagami's posts yet.

[Zar]

Yeah not really digging wgeurts vote on GreyICE. For me he is not up for lynching ever.

[Zar]

I'm still catching up can you actually give me a minute to read?

[Zar]

me and grey were the first people to get sotty scum. nacho later endorsed it. you came into the picture only much later and somehow you want to claim credit for what we have been working on. look i give credit where credit is due, even if I was scumreading grey the entire time and I wanted every1 to lynch him but nacho said NO and I listened.

I don't remember you being very vocal about Sotty Scum? In fact, weren't you scumreading GreyICE for the Sotty scumread?

p.Edit: I pretty much have followed through whenever someone has asked me a question?

[Zar]

Honestly the whole DIE GREYICE FOLLOW THE PLAN I BELIEVE IN NACHO 4EVER just doesn't feel to me like ZZZX's conviction to follow the plan is scum motivated if wgeurts is scum? The GI scumread makes close to Zero sense in my mind, and him wanting to lynch GI here would basically be a deathwish if he were scum with him. (currently up to page 142)

Titus answer me smthing. How did he build his vca? Does someone who never voted for or got voted by scum while being on every town lynch be towniest by CCA?

Metal is prob town but if you want to talk VFA the only person a little worse was prob mollie

P-edit I said you are scummy IF you want to take it in a CCA.

In other words I am bashing the VFA analysis done as being pointlesa

Can you explain why you think the VCA is pointless here? Lacking nightkills and assuming a scum voting bloc, I think VCA is possibly the most useful tool to help rule possible partnerships out.

[Zar]

Actually, this is what I feel this scream match looks like right now

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN-ut_5i_Bw

Spoiler: Dynasty

GreyICE is totally the blond one.

p.Edit: 3504 you said the analysis done was pointless?

[Zar]

I think VOTE: wgeurts is the most likely partner.

[Zar]

p.Edit: 3504 you said the analysis done was pointless?

i meant how that analysis is pointless unless it explains how it got the result it did.
also why not vote the person before voting his "partner" i find it fishy man.?

I think VOTE: wgeurts is the most likely partner.

I also need a walk thro as to why if you think wguerts is his partner you are not voting grey.

I was referring to Sotty? Why would I think wgeurts is scum with my strongest townread?

[Zar]

I wld like you to follow through with more developed reads which if you are town is something you shld have by now.

I don't think you are partnered to Sotty because of 1451 and 1753, and I recognize that you make a valid point it would be pretty suicidal to enter a game where you could have been pinned as scum by someone who can easily read you. I am more confident on my GreyICE read based on the associatives I have mentioned earlier.

Thinking what ABR mentioned about Seraphim in 2553 made me think that slot could have worked as a partner here, but I just feel that because Sotty spent the whole game pointing into that direction since post 346 (which is very similar to what Kagami did to GI) it's very unlikely. Wgeurts had at some point a strong townread on Sotty, yet never responded to my response read to him in 1130 and the early interactions between him and Sotty 208 and 346 seem like the type a partner would have. ABR's comments on Sotty in 1952 and 2026 and the reasons to not vote her in 1965, 2030 and the call out in 2183 make them possible partners as well, except why would scum ABR replace out if he could have continued antagonizing you as a distraction? ZZZX was the weaker of my townreads because a lot of his suspicions seemed rather pedestrian and push arguments that are more related to "bad play" than actual suspicion; which is something I often see scum do when they can't justify a reason to vote a player and Sotty but I don't really think his conviction to push the Nacho Plan is scum driven? (see Dynasty ft. GreyICE vs. ZZZX);

I haven't had the time to look into Kagami's posts; unfortunately I cannot be physically in a game that is as explosive as this one, let alone discern through Metal Sonic's 821 posts! Sotty's mention of him is kinda similar to the one on wgeurts but off the top of my head MS play overall feels very carefree and uncalculated, which is what I would expect from a town player. Also Sotty placing MS in her list of willing to lynch is weird, except If she's spread her partners in the not willing/willing/want to I would expect her to have them in her willing/won't tiers (I mean she had Kagami as a won't).

[Zar]

I'm here now, and I'm going to try looking over at Kagami's posts to see if I can see anything that could help us move this further.

[Zar]

Well, Kagami's ISO can be summarized to a long big push against GreyICE from beginning to end.

The only interesting post I could find where these ones:

Kagami, quit acting stupid or you'll prove Titus wrong and make a big embarrassment out of her.

Alright, screw it, tell me what to do.

Why isn't Kagami voting his 2nd biggest suspect Hoopla?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: hoopla

This is an interaction in which ABR basically gets her to vote Hoopla. It's something that could be easily faked to unpartnery IMO.

and

I haven't "cleared" anyone, except maybe ABR and sotty after a GI scumflip. While I recognize it to be an unpopular opinion, "townblocking" is stupid. A vengeful strat has a wildly higher EV

Here she's clearing Sotty and ABR tied to a "GI scumflip". We already know Sotty was scum, so maybe ABR/Alch still fits as a partner?

So there's two possible scenarios here:

a) Assuming GI!town, she could have tried to set him up ahead to get him lynched and work from there after, and take a chance to mention a partner or two for potential cred later.

b) Assuming GI!scum she could be trading in a partner for the other one/two (Sotty+ABR), but I feel it would be too high risk and could have blown in her face if her partners weren't able to deliver the goods by looking town as the game progressed.

[Zar]

Mollie: can you please explain to me your GI scumread, aside from following the Nacho Brick Road?

[Zar]

I would like to say that we need to push up the activity guys, Freezing the game here is just... bad.

Not sure if it is scum trying to slow down but we really need to get something happening. Do we not?

You gotta be kidding me, right? This game is the longest of the Team Mafia games and it's NOT EVEN THE LARGE.

also
Zar Apr 02, 09:16am Apr 22, 06:20am

0 days 19 hours 57

GreyICE Mar 30, 06:49pm Apr 22, 02:14am 0 days 23 hours 381
Alchemist21 Apr 20, 05:30pm Apr 22, 01:13am 1 day 0 hours 57


-.-

@metal I would love you to come out and get something on. I would love if you get a stance on the game. The Metal I know would.

This

probably

has nothing to do with me being able to be around to post at nights, right?

[Zar]

@Mollie

Mollie: can you please explain to me your GI scumread, aside from following the Nacho Brick Road?

Mollie please explain to me your GreyICE scumread? I just went over your ISO and you and saw you call him scum plenty of times between your entry and your post to ooba. Can you please walk me through? I'm trying to understand where you're coming from, I want to peek into your brain. I think you are town, but our read here is disparagingly different.

[Zar]

listen to me. I need you to really listen to me. look at what and who is bringing hardcore analysis to the game and who isn't. metal is bringing it on, zzthing is bringing it, I am bringing it on I feel like wguerts is bringing it on in his own way. there are 3 players who aren't. grey, zarella and alchey.

Also Mollie, I would like you to explain why you think I am not bringing 'hardcore analysis' into this game, because I feel I have been very analytical about the flips and have been actively trying to discern the partnerships.

[Zar]

well, I did read it, and I didn't see why it's so strong aside you saying your team having a collective strong read.

can you please walk me through it?

I'm not following you Mollie. I would like to but I'm not. I saw you mention you thought he was part of the rush to get Eddie lynched, but aside from that I can't see where you're coming from with GreyICE. I'm pretty convinced you're reading him wrong.

p.Edit: <_< I've been sheeping the largest wagons?? Like, really mollie? Are we playing the same game?

[Zar]

I am telling you that something happened on that scumboard to demotivate the scumteam. scum has got to be in grey/abr cos i am looking at this playerlist and those are the only who I think cld demotivate a scumteam. I think either scum were feeling let down by being hardbussed (and nothing demotivates me faster than getting hardbussed on d1 by a dumb teammate) or some1 was being nasty on the scumboard or mebbe both. I have played against scum!grey but it was over a year ago heck, it might have even been 2 years ago. I am sure he has improved since then. and tbh his play this game looks nothing like I remember but then I died n1. you are clearing him cos of him voting scum consistently and I am telling you that is a bad reason cos grey is from 2010 and I have noticed they on a whole are hardcore bussers. that is why if I am in a game with d3x or kthanx at the first whiff of scum them I look at who they are going after.

I know that the way I reason things out is very foreign to you. I have known this for a while but I think in lost rooms I realized the full extent of it. tere and i make a good hydra cos we have known each other for years and cos we compliment each other's weaknesses. that is probs gonna be a hydra that I use quite often. my point is that I take in little pieces of information and spreadsheet the fuck out of it until I can find a map of commonalities. if you guys saw all of my data collecting you wld most likely have me committed. I find human behaviour analysis to be fascinating and mafia is a gold mine of observations. it has become a hobby of mine to research and collect data and piece it together into a sort of artwork of what I find. some have been bad and some have been successful as far as consistency goes.

so tl;dr - there is a distinct possibility that grey is scum and that scum were demotivated by being hardbussed.

To me that doesn't feel like a reason to have a strong scumread, Mollie, can you please explain where the strength of your read comes from? Honestly, I don't see it and I'm really trying to discern what is it that you're seeing. Like, why do you think all of this necessarily points to GreyICE not hardbussing one but TWO scumbuddies while being doubly bussed back by them? Occam's razor points at the simpler alternative being true here?

[Zar]

can you plz elucidate as to why you have grey as town?

Spoiler: why GI is Town

GreyICE

I think GreyICE's comment to ZZZX's thoughts in 102 reads town on tone. The point on ZZZX's content to contribution ratio in 104 was accurate and valid. I can follow the thought process to pursue Sotty from 119 and the reasoning provided in 140 to strengthen the read. It feels like GreyICE has read between the lines in sotty's response. Thought his 214 regarding sotty seemed like a very detailed, organized case on why Sotty is likely scum here and GreyICE's analysis comes accross as genuine and unbiased in it. And ICE's observation into Eddie's reaction in 317 seems fairly accurtate with what I was thinking so far.

I like GreyICE's comments on Hoopla in 539. I could see how the entry could be interpreted as townish because while it may have been more advantageous to keep a more reserved position early on if there were more vocal and charismatic players around; so mediating and trying to build consensus could have been protown if Hoopla had actually engaged in it.

*EBWOP
To clarify a bit on my post, I meant to what I feel it says about GreyICE.

As far as GreyICE goes, he has him as "holy fuck" town too. He thinks GreyICE's argument regarding Kagami/SilverWolf is something he would expect GreyICE to pursue as town. He really liked his scumread on Kagami, and thinks the suspicion voiced about Hoopla's activity level and not banking on the town plan she laid out was super genuine.

The whole argument on Sotty's OMGUSsy reaction to GreyICE's push and the focus on it reads as her being over-defensive and like a good reason to actually avoid scumhunting or posting other reads.

How exactly is 640 a nice post of hers? The logic used to townread Kagami just feels irrational. Plus, Kagami's logic to jump on GreyICE feels a lot more opportunistic than a valid argument.

Nacho: I agree with you in regards to Kagami in #1129 (my thinking is she could be avoiding looking at a larger picture by focusing on GreyICE and her reads and votes don’t seem to flow naturally.

tbh, I don't really get why Nacho wanted GreyICE to be flipped after Kagami since she and Sotty both flipped scum? Because GreyICE's pushes on both of them and the way Kagami jumped with a chainsaw larger than Jason Vorhees's with the Sotty argument in day one in hindsight basically makes him confirmed innocent.

Thinking this through, this looks a bit like throw everything including the kitchen-sink kinda vote on mollie. Since I really doubt Sotty and GreyICE are partnered based on how everything between them went, I'd expect part of her vote here to be reacting to a vote on a partner more than trying to vote for cred, so I'm guessing Sotty/mollie is unlikely

Mollie why do you think the reasons to towread GI are dumb? He spent a whole awful lot of time convincing everyone and their mother about SilverWolf/Kagami after she jumped at him to defend Sotty.

I think the whole triangular dynamic between GreyICE + Kagami + Sotty points entirely away from this. GreyICE voting Sotty out for the entry and the whole nitpick with the token and the soft direction to Hoopla, Sotty not letting go of the argument as GreyICE kept building up, and then Kagami jumping into the argument when she replaced in looks more like an interaction of a partner defending another from an adversary than a triple partner setup? It looks too risky and unprofitable to me.

Here she's

Kagami

clearing Sotty and ABR tied to a "GI scumflip". We already know Sotty was scum, so maybe ABR/Alch still fits as a partner?

So there's two possible scenarios here:

a) Assuming GI!town, she could have tried to set him up ahead to get him lynched and work from there after, and take a chance to mention a partner or two for potential cred later.

b) Assuming GI!scum she could be trading in a partner for the other one/two (Sotty+ABR), but I feel it would be too high risk and could have blown in her face if her partners weren't able to deliver the goods by looking town as the game progressed.

[Zar]

In other relevant news, I have now decided to start referring to ZZZX as Alexis from now on, because Dynasty is a pretty strong force in this game.

[Zar]

Also Mollie, I gave you the reasoning to my wgeurts vote in 3719.

Fundamentally though, I think we both see the game differently, you apparently emotionally invest yourself while I try to remove myself from all the emotional appeal some players try to charge into the game, considering that it can be used as a means of manipulation.

[Zar]

can we just fucking lynch grey now

Nope, we can't unless you work with us. Even if I think you are town (which I really do), you don't get to call the banners if we can't follow you through. This is my second attempt to reach out to you.

also grey can say all of those things as scum I wldn't have thought so either but bulba pointed me to a game where did just that

What game? Can you please link to it?

I just can't empathize with you because I don't understand your GI read and I think you are wrong. Give me something to work with. Otherwise I will continue thinking you are letting your emotions take control of your GI read.

[Zar]

how is zarella playing well? by posting once a week? isn't that the same as coasting?

Mollie: is this an attempt to get a read on me by purposely needling me?

Because honestly, I think your whole argument against me feels biased. I have proven you I've been providing analysis. I have given you the reasoning to the reads you have asked. I am trying to work with you. Please don't make this game all give and no return. There have been way to many ego clashes in this game already. I don't want us to lose this game to the cult of personality. You have seen me as scum before, and you seem to rely on meta. Go back to HU2 and tell me if I'm playing like I was playing there here.

[Zar]

@quadz: this is me notifying I'm having ISP problems. I'll try to have them resolved tomorrow, but there's a chance it might have to be solved on Monday by the ISP

@Mollie: This is me acknowledging your post. I'll address it when I get internet back.

[Zar]

I am not calling any banners nacho did and you pple abandoned mr wear his heart on his sleeve 15 year old wguerts. excuse moi for thinking I have better judgment in this game than some of the other players here. like srsly who goes around as scum saying, "I'm town, how am I supposed to act?". I thought the wagon wld have dissipated after I pointed that out.

anyways I will try to work with you bit but I need to see some demonstration that you are reading my posts cos it seems largely that most pple aren't. plus you are on a team!mafia with players I know for a fact know how to emotionally manipulate me so I am STILL going to give you the squint eye.

I am reading your posts. Why would I not read them? I have shown you that I was reading them and all the time I have asked you things it's because I have been trying to understand where you're coming from. Also I have singer constantly telling me to work with you and that she would have sheeped you, except I didn't agree with your GI read at all so that's where I was.

how many nightless games have you played? I have played about 6 I think mebbe more. nightless games tend to be more high stressed than other games and scum have to pull out all of the stops, this is why I am asking.

cos neither kagami or sotty. and I maintain that there is a reason for that.

I haven't played a nightless before. This would be my first nightless game. I prefer flavorful games or with flavored mechanics.

I am looking at this playerlist and there are 2 pple on it even if I had never had a kerfuffle with cld piss off a scumteam. and that is abr and grey and metal to a very lateral degree. I maintain scum is in abr/grey cos I think they demotivated their team based on what was said in the scum pt and their actions in this game. grey's anger came out of nowhere and it looked like he was cosying up to abr. his jump off wguerts after pushing him all day and his zzthing/ooba scumteam idea doesn't really make sense to me altho I feel kind of panicky that ooba is not posting. those 2 players have come the closest to my thinking and while I think ooba is sneaky enough to do it cos he is a sneaky little sneak who likes to sneak around as scum I am just not getting that vibe here. if zzthing is scum here then holy shit he has been holding back in all of his other games.

I have you as scum cos I am not seeing 1 hard stance that you are taking. you are blending in and not trying to make waves and that worries me. like who are your scumspects? cos of right now I have no clue.

I have taken hard stances both on GreyICE and on my two earlier scumreads, which happen to have flipped scum? As far as suspects go, the player I think is scum right now is ABR/Alchemist here because of the way they halted the Kagami wagon and pushed Nacho with all that conviction that derailed the lynch from her. There are some other things I've noticed.

As far as townreads go, you are now my strongest townread. I don't think you would have jumped into a guaranteed toxic environment as scum in order to fool Nacho into townreading you. Also, despite your tunnel on GreyICE was wrong, I don't think your push on him came from a survivalistic perspective. I'm getting paranoid of the Seraphim/ooba slot because of the whole interaction with Sotty unvoting and swithching to Hoopla and which I thought couldn't come from scum considering Sotty's placeholder vote, but I'm starting to feel that with Sotty being so scumread collectively it could have been an attempt to distance from a partner. I also don't know but I thought he was genuinely scumreading wgeurts and then he removed his vote from that wagon and it's something like it could have been a way to avoid getting called out for being in the wagon and that him removing the vote and keeping away was pretty much to let it happen.

oh and the game I am referring to is http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59772 game, bulba modded it and he is the 1 who pointed it out to me cos i was arguing that I didn't think grey wld act like he did as scum and bulba was like all yes can. and he CAN.

I went over GreyICE's meta in that game, and to me he's very different there than he was here. As in, his pushes and stances were a lot more sustained here than in that game. For example, he left his vote parked on Egg in post 144 because he didn't like the argument Riddleton had about it, but didn't really explain anything about the reasoning why he wanted Egg to be lynched and stuff. Anyway, this is pointless now?

I hate every single 1 of metal's exchanges with zzthing. I don't get why he is clearing abr and I think the reliance on titus's vca on grey is dodgy as fuck after it has been pointed out that she was obvsly wrong about wguerts. I call thorella scum in nearly every game but I am bound to be right at least some of the time. it doesn't mean I can accurately read thorella which I can't and have been saying this for months. titus's vca is shit but when it is pointed out to him he doesn't acknowledge it.

I am wondering he is hard defending abr so hard. abr's swap out looked gross and alchey is saying things that don't sound like abr. wld you like to give opinions on abr and metal? cos metal's super endorsement of town!abr suddenly makes sense as a scum move at this stage of a nightless game. but right now I am sticking with you and grey cos that just makes the most sense to me.

I am pretty paranoid right now and while I appreciate the reach out YOU are not giving ME anything to work with. so plz don't accuse me of how it is all give and you are the 1 who is doing that and not me. cos you so aren't.

also wisdom replaced eddie on my team!mafia team so I am hoping for some mindmeld and some clarity.

My team and I had ABR as being really town early on because we felt him being that antagonistic early (ie. the way he handled wgeurts) was super confident and condescending, which I thought would be something scum would possibly avoid to do early on? I also had a very vague memory of a Faraday Game in which he basically left the slot without doing anything in the game and then it turned out it was a scumslot. After I died in N2 Faraday mentioned ABR hated scum so I thought his activity here could have meant his alignment more likely town. I'll explain what I'm scumreading Alchemist for in a seapare post. So, I don't know if that's where Metal Sonic was coming from as well? I also don't see why scum!MetalSonic would suddenly shift from being hard scumreading GreyICE to suddenly thinking he's town after both scumflips and then trying to defend him in 3931?

Also, we're going to have to agree to disagree on what you think I have done, because I don't feel the same way. I think if you go over my ISO you will see what opinions I have stated of all the players in this game. You keep saying that I haven't done anything when the facts are showing the opposite.

[Zar]

Here's why I think Alchemist's slot is scum

These are basically interarctions ABR had with Sotty and Kagami before the Nacho flip which I find relevant and tie them as partners:

Spoiler: Interactions with SW/Kagami

ABR's entry vote was SW in 66 with a vote he refused to explain to wgeurts (which is where he had the exchange that Empirea and I found town), until he called out the SilverWolf/Kagami at the likelihood that she was probably scum based on how she was coming across (96). With this knowledge at hand though, ABR did not seem to be bothered later that GreyICE kept mentioning that SW was actively posting elsewhere on the site after replacing out, which should have probably led him to sustain his early suspicions.

Later, ABR's reasoning on SW has changed by saying he thought the slot was possibly town along with Seraphim and Eddie and his distrust came from the little they had participated (339).

He's back to suspect the slot based on the interactions involing Sotty, except this time, he's also making a parallel on Seraphim/ooba. He outrightly called Kagami's logic bad in 596 and had already voiced suspicion in 385

He even considers voting Kagami in 711, but then wavers at it and establishes his team considers Kagami town based on Inuyasha meta, according to 755 and some other meta briefly described in 762 and calls her a "high risk lynch" and called Kagami vs. GreyICE "a whole conf. bias and emotional voting" in 763.

There's another interaction that could come from a partner trying to weakly deflect from a lynch in 772 where ABR expresses that he thinks the strategy to align herself with Sotty/Seraphim/Eddie couldn't come from scum.

For a brief moment 809, he votes her bot a few posts later 816 jumps into the Hoopla wagon, after trying to hold Nahco liable for a "potential town flip" of Kagami.

So basically, while ABR seems to have expressed strong opinions on to why Silver/Kagami was likely to be scum on day one, he found reasons to back away from the scumread and the vote, specially the quick switch from Kagami to Hoopla.

---

Spoiler: Interactions with Sotty:

ABR made a big push for Sotty early on, following GreyICE's interaction with her. He voted her in 210; but in post 336 wants to go after Hoopla instead, calls them a scumteam in 347 (which is something I would expect some partners to say to try to tie players if they have an obvious scumbuddy in the spotlight), votes her and gives out reasons but leaves himself space to go back to Hoopla by calling her the wagon the "second best lynch after Hoopla". A few posts later he continues to try to use the Sotty scumflip against wgeurts who we now know is town.

ABR flip flops a bit between voting Sotty and Seraphim, hopping to Kagami but finally settling on Hoopla for the lynch.891 gives Kagami credit for trying harder than Sotty and Hoopla.

Sotty's read of ABR in 605 limited to arguing with him about him commenting on her lacking reads, but does not offer an alignment opinion on him. It makes sense from a partner in bad shape who does not want to affect another in thread and may be absorbing the suspicion.

On day Two, ABR made jabs at the confirmed scum Sotty wagon. He tried to secure the Nacho wagon in 2183 by saying it could stall if people switched to sotty or kagami and in 2026 he called the wagon a joke with "guaranteed scum in it", when we have already confirmed was town motivated.

VOTE: Alchemist

[Zar]

to add further to my not liking metal at the moment is that he has said some untrue statements. he says blames ooba for the deviation of the grey lynch on d5 and yet then later tells ooba that he never liked nacho's plan at all cos he was all for it then suddenly got cold feet and is now changing his narrative. <------ I don't like it 1 bit. it seems like he is playing to the crowd of whoever happens to be on I am seeing zero clear lines in his thinking.

I'll start going over Metal Sonic's 974 posts (and ZZZX's 700+ as well), off the top of my head Metal seems all over the place and seems to be changing his stances all the time, which I wouldn't expect scum to be so volatile? Mina was gut townreading him. We definitely need to take some time to reevaluate since there's 2 scum left and with 6 players left it takes all the town to vote to lynch scum. And if by any chance we mislynch, I believe it's necessary to focus on the wagon for scumhunting. As far as ZZZX goes I didn't think ZZZX could be scum with wgeurts because of how the whole Dynasty re-enactment between him and GreyICE came along. GI was really thirsty for ZZZX blood and wanted to venge him but in the end but for his final read on him was ambiguous so I want to take a look at him as well. I'm also starting to get paranoid about the gynormous ISOs and your comment doesn't help!

[Zar]

okay I am following your thinking, do you think that abr wld intentionally create conflict as scum? to me it is a risky plan of diminished returns that yielded a negative result where alchey had to come in and smooth things over in order to get the conclusion he wanted for his team. his replace out was weird AND I AM NOT BEING DAZZLED BY ALCHEY. I want to read his posts and love them and I am not. I feel like trying to get the both of you to get a real convo going it is like digging out teeth with a grapefruit spoon.

Honestly, the whole angry ABR thing feels like not alignment relevant to me anymore. I don't think it's a scum theatrical; some people have beef with others which can be often irrelevant to the game itself. If you're saying that I think he would exploit it because he was scum; no, I don't think so; but players who are aggressive as town and aware of this will often mimic their town meta to match their play; so ABR being cocky at the beginning felt like a towntell but then waning down to become more complacent in the end does look weird to me.

[Zar]

I can't wait to see how you do with a book of metal sonics and zzthing's posts cos it is going to take ages cos I did try earlier. I know I can't do it I don't have the attention span.

prediction: you will die of old age.

also wguerts flipped town so what does that do to your idea that wguerts and zzthing were scum together. cos its like you went there and left me hanging and i am not any clearer as to your read on zzthing! except for the hyperposting part.

my team was gut reading metal as town to (bulba, eddie) wis thinks he is scum but he is all "ugh I thought this game wld be easy with the grey flip". cos we thought there was a good chance grey wld flip scum. and we are back to figuring things out. I am thinking about grey and trying to look at the game from his perspective cos I want to get inside his and see if there is any intersection of thought cos mine was diametrically opposed to most of his until the end.

Oh my god, don't tell me about it. Between ZZZX and Metal Sonic they have over 1700 posts combined, at 25 posts per page, that's like 68 pages of this game that I need to go over! Just thinking about reading that makes me want to crawl into a bed and cover myself and sleep, if you know what I mean! (and don't even take me to paranoia levels).

Regarding to ZZZX I was talking about what my read on ZZZX was when the whole scream match happened between him and GI. Earlier I had ZZZX has a weaker town read. Gut had him as pretty town initially during my replacement and he seemed to be in the same place with trying to figure Nacho when I was still trying to wrap my head around him. Some of things that made me lose a bit of confidence in him was that the reasoning he kept using to townread metal sonic seemed a bit like run-of-the-mill, and that some of his bolder stances seemed to be on the predicament of wanting to lynch players he wasn't really scumreading but more like thinking they were antitown (the difference being that there didn't seem to be an organic suspicion, but more of a justification of voting them based on their play, which is something I tend to find scum do when they really can't find anything they could reasonably claim to be scummy to cling to).

In a sense, he feels very similar to MS because it he keeps changing his stances, but the problem I'm having (which you have brought up as well) is like it feels the way he's doing it feels like keeping his options open. There's that thing you commented on (also are you like in singer's mind or something? she brought up this our skype chat) like, he keeps optimistically lining up pairing options but then he's all like "there's other pairings possible too", which is kinda what I would expect from scum here to do, since then the pushes make it less about looking for scum and more like setting up a mislynch plan, since at any given townflip all you need to do is basically shift into your undisclosed partnerships. It's like, there's no motivation for him to try to discern alignments independently, he's basically just calling out "there's scum between those two, let's lynch them both!"

[Zar]

Actually, ZZZX, I do have a question:

am I on it?

well i created a town block with me ooba and you but metal for some reason is not liking it,

Isn't that what YOU are doing?

Anyways we lynch you if you flip town we lynch me then lynch zar/metal/alchemist in that order. Never touch ooba/mollie

IF both me and grey flip town and someone lynches ooba/pirate I will fucking flip out after game if we lost because of it. Just leaving this here.

Can you explain when did you go from wanting to townbloc ooba and not wanting to touch him or having him flipped to

omg zzzx you are here!!!!!!!


i was so lonely!

was preparing for my finals. they will be fucking hard.

also half of the playlist here is doing nothing. its that bad..

p-edit: it can make sense. Ima keep ooba alive for a while tho, dont you agree? we lynch easy scum then we finish with hard one.

wanting to keep him alive for a while because "lynch easy scum first!"?

[Zar]

Weren't you all for the Nacho Brick Road before GreyICE's flip? Considering that you are GreyICE's venge target, would you say that it affects your will to let us follow along with it as in, say, GreyICE would have chosen another target instead? For example: would you have honored GreyICE's venge target if he had chosen anyone other than yourself?

[Zar]

Also, ZZZX what are the other pairings you seem to think are still possible?

[Zar]

Not really at this stage. If grey happened before wge I would have accepted it but think about the fact that tomorrow is lylo if we mislynch. We have a problem then.

Hmmm.I can see alchem work with basically anyone. Metal with you is unlikely but possible

I'm starting to feel like, your argument here is less about solving the game and more like wanting it to fit an agenda, it's like doing so you don't really want to discern the alignment of the slots you want to lynch; basically your argument is that you think they fit as partners but have left every option open that fits you; which gives you wiggle room to switch if a mislynch happens.

[Zar]

@Zar:

I've requested for you to analyze Ooba earlier but you appear to have missed it. I cannot find any mention of Ooba in your ISO nor see your thoughts on him. Can you analyze ooba later?

VOTE: Zar

My reasoning to think why Ooba is unlikely to be scum here before was given in 2838 and is derived from Sotty/Seraphim. If you did read my comments to Mollie in 4197 you'd see where part of my reasoning was coming from.

I feel like wgeurts is the most likely partner to Sotty and Kagami here; ABR/Alchemist works as a partner too; I think Sotty's interactions with mollie point away from them being likely partners; Seraphim/ooba could be a Sotty Partner but the whole voting thing sotty did parking her vote on him feels like pulling away. Metal Sonic feels town to me by play but Sotty was rather ambivalent on his opinion about him and was in the wrong side of the tracks. ABR/Alchemist seems to be a good partner for Sotty based on the supposed townread and derail of both wagons. Wgeurts had a strong townread on Sotty, yet never responded to my read on her and the interactions between him and Sotty seem like the type a partner would have. Have not looked at Kagami's posts yet.

I have yet to go over ooba's ISO but I want to take a look at you and ZZZX first because I frankly can't remember either of your stances very well and want to check I'm not missing anything in that sea of posts of you both.

[Zar]

I WILL move my vote to you

You're already voting Kagami.

didnt i move my vote to hoopla?

-After ISOing self:

Wat... lol

anyway I guess my vote deserves to stay anyway...

I honestly thought i was voting hoopla >.<

Mollie, since you have experience with ZZZX, what do you make of this interaction ABR pointed in thread about him forgetting his Kagami vote and confusing himself with MS?

[Zar]

Also Alchemist, why haven't you commented on my thoughts of your slots interactions with Sotty/Kagami?

[Zar]

Also Alchemist, why haven't you commented on my thoughts of your slots interactions with Sotty/Kagami?

Since they dealt with ABR's ownership of the slot, I'm not going to speak for him to defend against your points since I'm not ABR, just as I don't expect Ooba to try to defend Seraphim's play because he's not Seraphim.

Um... that's not really the same case? You evidently have access to ABR's thoughts and comments since he's still part of your team and you guys just swapped, while in Ooba's case, he replaced into Seraphim's place in that team, so he basically has to rely on his the teammates to understand where he was coming from.

[Zar]

since when has forgetfulness been a scumtell? it did at 1 point cross my mind that zzthing and metal were scum together cos of all of the shitposting that wasn't particularly relevant but I am feeling the ikaness in his posts. sure, ika probably knows how I read him and cld dodge my meta but I go back to that post where zzthing said, "ika says, if mollie says nacho is town he is town" and that post came from a pure town mindset and this was before I even replaced in. cos what scum wld not want a lynch to go through on town!nacho when you can't kill him and nacho was pretty close to getting lynched. it didn't seem to come from a "hey I want to town cred for correctly reading nacho!" mindset it seemed like town trying to help town.

I'm trying to understand where your townread comes from and you have more experience with him. I'm really starting to get worried that he might be the scum that's snuck to townreads. Like, for example, as soon as I've started to express my concerns of him, he suddenly starts to feel good about me, and I'm concerned how he's always found lynch alternatives in his proposed lineups. Also, Mina points out she's not endeared that he seems to have suddenly decided I'm town in 4298 AFTER you declared your townread on me.

[Zar]

eh i am wondering if I am putting that slot in a town pile for bad reasons tbh. BUT metal has been doing tat all game.

wis and i are looking alchey/metal but eh

the thing that is bugging me is in the vc and neither ooba or zzthing are voting. ooba has been screaming for metal's head all game, so why isn't he now? he has made 2 posts and is mia at a point in the game where I wld expect scum to fall back. zzthing is the venge kill but I don't see him really pursuing anybody, do you? this is how i expect scum to act at this juncture in a nightless.

Do you think MS has found alternatives to his lynch canditates all the time? Because distinctively, what remember them both Metal and ZZZX doing most of the time was the whole shifting stances. I've gone over part of ZZZX's first because off the top of my head, what I did remember of him was seeming to have a path of lineups that kept saving his suspects for later. Like in this exchange here and here with ABR his previous logic train had his team thinking Kagami was the most likely scum in that pool; and prior to that he had been voting her and then is like, he totally forgot he was voting that slot?

I'm a little behind with my iSOing, I'll get back on track on Monday after I'm back home. I'll be mostly V/LA until then.

quadz V/LA until May 5th

[Zar]

hi, I'm here now for a bit, catching up.

[Zar]

He actully responded more than I thought he would.

He said his D1 posts read genuine if you put them in context and none of what you said applies. He also said he moved onto Nacho because that's what the team told him to do.

I don't understand how ABR's entire recollection of his posts "reading genuine" involves not considering GreyICE's kept bringing up that SilverWolf had excused herself of this game out of "RL making it hard to replace into this game" while actively posting elsewhere, when he had already mentioned knowing SW wasn't comfortable playing scum. To me it feels like ignoring something that could have helped stringing her up in Day one if he had factored his experience with her and what he had spotted. Or why if he was convicted by his early pushes on SW he he somehow found a way of townreading the slot based on a single scum game by Kagami.

It also explain why/how your slot was somehow townreading both Ooba and Sotty in 1952 when he asks them both whether they would rather be mislynched to protect their Nacho townread, sicne he had been expressing suspicion on the slot before the replacement and had Ooba/Seraphim among his suspects for reasons stated several times before that comment.

[Zar]

Firstly, during my absence, shos left multiple messages in the team pt and it seems he was pretty worried! Quite a number of them was to tell me to take my vote off Zar. After the read-through, mollie *finally* wants ooba's blood after me yelling for his head for like 100 years. Somewhere along the line she is going to proudly say "I caught ooba!" while forgetting that I was all for it the whole time. Well, after he flips scum, I'm conftown then, so hopefully it will all work out.

UNVOTE: Zar
VOTE: Ooba

Can you go over what shos said that compelled you to unvote me and why did you accept his read on me so eagerly at that point, given that he's been townreading me for a while and you seemed to suspect me for not addressing your concerns?

[Zar]

VOTE: metal btw

I never liked ooba wagon composition anyway

Also metal remeber when i said that my scum reads do not matter most of the game since I am town hunting? thats why ooba's read fell. his town read got weaker than zar's. right now I am trusting in zar and mollie as town and thats it.

The above comments point to you suspecting Metal/Alch more than ooba and your comment about the ooba wagon here seems to indicate so. I still don't understand why you weren't voting one of your bigger suspects and claiming intent to hammer ooba instead if you didn't like them both being in the wagon.

[Zar]

zarella can you give an actual read on ooba tia?

My major problem with the Ooba wagon stems from the way Sotty basically handled that slot. On one end, Sotty parking her attention on Lurky Seraphim pretty much all game seems like an easy target she could have tried to exploit as scum. That said, I don't like that ooba has faded out a lot, it's like he's become very much a non-entity on this day phase. My paranoid crackpot theory about his Sotty interaction involves that it could have been an attempt to distance but it feels stretchy? What do you think about the way he handled the wgeurts wagon though?

[Zar]

So, I'm guessing Alchemist is out of the table today based on the MS Flashwagon?

It's going to take a lot of convincing for me not to vote ooba tomorrow if MS happens to flip town.

VOTE: Metal Sonic

[Zar]

Also mollie I'm getting tired of you taking little jabs at me. You've been doing this for a while now. Singer insists you like to do this in order to get people to react so you can read them better, but all it does to me is make me reconsider ever signing up to games with you in them if this is what you do. So stop taking pot shots at me and know we're town here so #dealwithit.

[Zar]

This is sad. I'm sorry MS.

I should have probably stuck to my guns with my Alchemist vote.

Ooba + Alchemist is probably the scumteam then I guess.

[Zar]

I really don't know what to think.

[Zar]

Like, I really don't think Mollie would join a game to play a massive gambit on Nacho? I mean who in their right mind would do that?

[Zar]

I'm seriously paranoid of ooba's tilting against Metal Sonic, and then trying to use against me that I was voting Alchemist. Then there's the whole trying to go after Mollie thing, which to me doesn't make any sense.

But I'm also really worried Mollie's been letting ZZZX slip by because she seems to like him more than anyone else in this game, I've doubted the integrity of her read of him for a while now and yet she hasn't managed to properly convey why she's townreading him. IDK. I'm seriously worried she might vote wrong in the end if I get lynched today.

I was really convinced Alchemist was scum with all his read changing, I think I'm going to have to do some re-reading and just dealing with going over ZZZX makes me want to gauge my eyes out.

[Zar]

Also, mollie, we did not bid any scum tokens. We used three town tokens here and we used two town tokens for Regfan

to keep his sanity

.

[Zar]

I am pretty sure I explained my zzthing townread? if you doubted it then why did you not mention it at the time? what part do you not understand?

I have been asking you about ZZZX, and have asked you because I don't really see what you find different in how he's playing here when compared to MetalSonic. Didn't you find the whole Day 8 exchange between those two weird?

[Zar]

also I am very interested in your venge kill choice. is it zzthing? why not ooba?

I feel like you are totally hedging your reads here.

Who do you think is likelier to be scum with Metal Sonic? Ooba, who wrenched the wagon outside of Metal Sonic when he could have secured a wagon for Alchemist, or ZZZX, who had the whole theatrical with MS yesterday?

Also, do tell me if I should just not bother gauging through his gargantuan iso at this point, because your comment seems to imply you won't be changing your mind on him (which is what concerns me).

[Zar]

I'm busy until tomorrow morning, which is when I'd be able to go over the Seraphim/Ooba posts. Going from memory and paranoia aside, I don't think ooba makes sense as the last remaining Mafia, but singer agrees with Mollie on how she perceives he's been posting.

Oh and ZZZX I have a few things to say, some of which site-wide rules on civility prevent, though! (One of them involves extending Mina's piece of mind on Dan's supposed experience of how we'd be spending tokens, because really... oh and Also, if your team is calling BS on how I spent tokens, ooba you're just calling me scum without seeming to care about how we used tokens to affect our alignment here).

But at least from my POV, that ZZZX's continued intention to push the game mindlessly makes him the most likely remaining mafia. If mollie hammers me before I come back because she can't see how he's buttered her up, I hope at least she promises to give it a couple of days thought before she places a vote.

VOTE: ZZZX.

[Zar]

Zar, I don't understand this token stuff because I'm a replacement.

I'm relaying what Dan told me. He's reading the thread - so if you have anything specific countering that - post it here and he'll reply.

Let's just say, paraphrasing Mina, that your team's speculation about our token use is very angering to her and he's completely wrong.

For better Reference on Empire 101, I give CES from Zachtown:

Dazed and Confused is a Mina/Empire Hydra

Subject: Micro 134 (F11) (Game Over!)

See her title.

You don't have to worry about Dazzled and Blinded as their townieness is beyond questioning. Empire doesn't even have a scum game.

[Zar]

A chance to tell me what you wanted to say*

Anyway off to sleep I go

I never said what I had to say was addressed to you, don't take yourself so importantly! But, semantics arguments are dull anyway.

[Zar]

Frankly at this point I just wana know the flip. I doubt zar is going back or doing anytgibg if he's back...

^ This post is pretty scum motivated and it allows ZZZX to hide in his supposed "I'm town, and mollie's town so >> ooba", which is him lining himself for endgame after my flip.

[Zar]

also just on the token system... why would you put town tokens in a scum sided setup?

Considering this is the setup where any given player is more likely to draw a scum pm and Empire wanted to play here but has a non-existent scum game, in order to a) preserve his mental sanity and ours along and b) Empire is a pretty strong town player and is practically unlynchable as town, so that would make all the sense in the world to us?

Also, modding hat on, I don't think it's entirely correct saying the nightless being "scum-sided" because numbers. I think it's really swingy and it depends a lot on who gets lynched first.

To me, this feels like you want to use everything you can come up with to justify having your vote on me and then try to play it by claiming you "thought it was pretty obvious".

[Zar]

Mollie lynch ZZZX pls he's the last mafia.

[Zar]

Ooba can't make sense as mafia.

[Zar]

Also, if ZZZX is town I'm blacklisting him and ika by proxy.

[Zar]

Also if Mollie votes ooba and loses she deserves an avatar of shame.

[Zar]

he told me a similiar thing 12 hours ago if zar flips town

he told you a similar thing of what?

if zar flips town he will rage , get insane, try to replace with me in this game.

^ Scum Claim

[Zar]

Also, if ZZZX is town I'm blacklisting him and ika by proxy.

well better start black listing now if you were town. because I have done nothing wrong anyway, other than catching all scum so far. Am I missing anything else?

So cheeky! Says the scum who spammed the game with Metal Sonic and now voted him when ooba pressured him to.
Start screaming for ika here to save you before you're caughtl in endgame.

[Zar]

Ooba didn't pressure me to sonic . I did. Read how I switched only because of ooba and Mollie to alch. When they went to sonic I switched back you ignorent fool

You voted after you realized ooba would lynch you instead, don't try that!

It doesn't matter, you'll be obvious in Day 10.