Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Wisdom]

VOTE: nacho

[Wisdom]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

[Wisdom]

infinity you're trying too hard and me no like

[Wisdom]

because he's Nacho, duh

[Wisdom]

says infinity who tried to question a joke

[Wisdom]

we agree!

[Wisdom]

I'll agree with the PV thing as well.

[Wisdom]

I will also agree with the townreads on Infinity.

I think that him continuing to nitpick things and defend that way of playing despite people clearly finding it odd and worth questioning shows lack of scum motivation.

[Wisdom]

dunno. He feels town. I liked how he handled the pressure.

[Wisdom]

that's what I mean; after I noted that I disliked his trying too hard re: my joke, he moved on to doing the same in regards to farside, like he didn't care at all

[Wisdom]

This is an awfully strange 180:

Whats strange about it? The reason im townreading Infinity happened after those initial posts and actually have to do with how Infinity handled those posts.

I dont like this.

[Wisdom]

It has backing

Explain.

[Wisdom]

Infinity why the Wraith vote?

[Wisdom]

Do you know me to be scared to push a scumread?

[Wisdom]

kraska do things please

[Wisdom]

Farside seems annoyed and ranty.

do you mean to imply something about her alignment with this, or?

[Wisdom]

nah. Kagami is actually reading infinity's motivations for what they are in what you quoted

[Wisdom]

yeah because posting without tryharding is such a huge adjustment

pedit: yes

[Wisdom]

What do you think about Wraith's post on me?

pedit: you missed the sarcasm there

[Wisdom]

to be clearer: Making a post without being over the top tryhard is not a playstyle adjustment, therefore arguing "yeah he wouldnt playstyle adjust so you dont have a point" is bullshit

[Wisdom]

What do you think about Wraith's post on me?

which post

123

[Wisdom]

he voted me for it so strange = scummy in this context
So basically you agree with him that what happened in between doesn't justify my infinity townread?
Because all I'm seeing is Wraith opportunistically finding something he can push here

[Wisdom]

so you're infinity
you're nervous (we mean the same btw, by tryharding I mean he doesn't know what to say so he's trying too hard where he shouldn't), so you try to question Wisdom's joke about Tammy being scum
Tammy points out it's a joke, Wisdom gives you an evil eye and states he doesn't appreciate you tryharding
And your response to this is finding yet another post to tryhard on? (This time about farside voting a wagon but not the top wagon)

[Wisdom]

he voted me for it so strange = scummy in this context
So basically you agree with him that what happened in between doesn't justify my infinity townread?
Because all I'm seeing is Wraith opportunistically finding something he can push here

no i think its an ok vote because ur post was bad

Even if I accept that the post was bad, he didn't say my post was bad. He said my 180 was what was scummy.
So how is that okay?

[Wisdom]

I didn't see that as a push/pointing out of something scummy (correct me if I'm wrong wisdom)

you're wrong and i dont get how you can still think this when there are discussions about your reaction to said push as well as my read progression on you.

[Wisdom]

I don't like "you can't possibly believe this you're scum" arguments, do you often find that you can find scum in that way?

what are you saying here? because I don't see such an argument in kraska's post

[Wisdom]

id probably do it even if we were buddies tbh

[Wisdom]

wraith and cakez?

[Wisdom]

maybe not both, but one of them probably is

talk to me about shadow and leon. I don't have a read on either

[Wisdom]

I just went through shadow's ISO and I don't really like it

[Wisdom]

you're right that shadow's addressing of Leon could be a buddy thing

[Wisdom]

so your issue is that post rather than the change from scumlean to town?

[Wisdom]

because if so, I have further explained what I meant there in multiple posts yet you are not commenting on any

Given you had infinity as town lean you should be seeing at least a portion of what I saw there

yet you still list me as a scumread as if nothing happened

[Wisdom]

his stance on me is basically "here's an 180, ill ignore everything in between because its convenient", "here's a convienient excuse kraska gave me, ill quote it and say that's the case" and "ill conveniently ignore all wisdom's posts on the topic i supposedly find him scummy for"

pedit: @kraska

[Wisdom]

I think I'll stay put for now. I don't really like Wisdom's reaction to my vote and quite a few of his posts afterward are asking people to validate his scumread of me.

and now he avoids talking to me

[Wisdom]

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

what fluff? i have zero fluff

the rest of your post is crap too but I dont want to scumread you because I feel you wouldnt be attempting to antagonize me while Im townreading you

[Wisdom]

his stance on me is basically "here's an 180, ill ignore everything in between because its convenient", "here's a convienient excuse kraska gave me, ill quote it and say that's the case" and "ill conveniently ignore all wisdom's posts on the topic i supposedly find him scummy for"

pedit: @kraska

okay i just think that discussion is going nowhere at this point so why dont u poke him about other things

he opted out of talking with me so

also stop answering for him

[Wisdom]

quote one post not related to scumhunting or townhunting other than my tammy joke in the beginning please, infinity

[Wisdom]

nacho, what's your read on shaddow?

[Wisdom]

none of those is fluff

[Wisdom]

It's not fluff, but it's not scumhunting either and not really necessary imo when no one was scumreading him for it

all of the posts you quoted minus the "he's nacho" and "i would probably do it if we were buddies too" are related to solving the game

[Wisdom]

The way I see it, he was defending himself from kraska, who had no read on him.

Doesn't seem particularly productive to me.

no, kraska stated that she thought my post re:you was scummy, and further she defended Wraith on the matter.
You think it's not important trying to understand why someone is defending my scumread, or trying to understand why she found my post scummy?

[Wisdom]

Ok. Explain these.

in the former you expressed an incorrect view of the game and you asked me to correct you if you're wrong. I did so, while trying to understand how you can possibly miss that I had expressed a scumlean on you when it's been a hot topic.

in the latter I felt like you were accusing kraska of something she wasn't doing, and so wanted to get you to clarify what exactly what you were doing.

I don't understand how these aren't obvious.

[Wisdom]

The way I see it, he was defending himself from kraska, who had no read on him.

Doesn't seem particularly productive to me.

no, kraska stated that she thought my post re:you was scummy, and further she defended Wraith on the matter.
You think it's not important trying to understand why someone is defending my scumread, or trying to understand why she found my post scummy?

are we talking about 187 or something else?

no, about 164 through 178

[Wisdom]

I don't see how you were trying to understand why she found your post scummy/sorting her in the process.

you wont see every thought i have in the thread.

[Wisdom]

i dont know why youve come to expect questioning from me
wasnt i a lot less transparent in true love?

[Wisdom]

With these being two prime examples of clearly showing a scumread on infinity, yet leaving his vote on his RVS target. Looked like scum wanting to get a wagon going, but then when it didn't pull together backing off to fit in with the general opinion.

and i'll ask again

Do you know me for someone who hesitates to get wagons on people when I'm scum?

Do you know me for someone who generally cares about the general opinion as scum?

[Wisdom]

I agree, but then I don't remember him being so shallow as scum, so let's see what else he'll post

[Wisdom]

Here's a better question
Do you hesitate to get wagons on people and care about the general opinion as town?

no.
so we basically agree I am being different here.
does different mean scum?

[Wisdom]

There's no way town you would think that both people voting you are scum together.

also as I said when Kagami said the same, I didn't mean for both you and Wraith to be scum with that post

Kagami was asking for guesses about her two favorite lynches after all, doesn't mean they have to be connected

[Wisdom]

In this playerlist, I think yes

hm?
You think this playerlist should make me aggressive?

[Wisdom]

no I did remember they were both voting me as that's what caused my scumlean on them in both cases

[Wisdom]

I think that you would be normal with these players if you were town here, but the fact you're holding back and going along with the crowd reads to me like scum trying to be cautious around this very strong playerlist.
To compare, you were very aggressive as scum in Soccer Spirits, but that playerlist was much weaker in general imo

i dont think these assumptions have any ground
I can't be town opting to not be aggressive for once because..?

[Wisdom]

yeah

[Wisdom]

Why are you scumreading kraska?

[Wisdom]

because

[Wisdom]

which push looks manufactured?

[Wisdom]

VOTE: wraith

[Wisdom]

Wraith/shadow/Leon is my first attempt at a guess

[Wisdom]

without trying to scumhunt

this is still bullshit

[Wisdom]

oh nvm i thought you were still talking about me

[Wisdom]

i find it disturbing you're still going on about that

[Wisdom]

i dont answer useless questions

[Wisdom]

suit yourself

[Wisdom]

VOTE: shadow

[Wisdom]

steal

[Wisdom]

town, most likely town, leaning town

[Wisdom]

Ill do you one better

Town: {Tammy, Kagami, peregrine, Nacho, Infinity}
Nulltown: {farside, kraska, Bulbazak, Cakez}
Nullscum: {Leon, Wraith}
Scum: {shaddow}

[Wisdom]

Bulba's paranoia feels legit and cakez i dont think he pushes this playstyle crap as scum

Im not very confident about either though, after all i have a bad history with reading both of them

[Wisdom]

Was there something specific dropped by Lion-O? Because I just have him as null.

me too
He's just PoE and I liked Kagami's point that shaddow's addressing at him could indicate they're buddies

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom: Where'd the switch from Wraith to Shadow come from?

last wraith posts made me less sure of my scumread on him
the carefree nature of them or something

[Wisdom]

Why are you voting shaddow?

[Wisdom]

Cakez and Infinity have been pretty shallow too, what makes shaddow special?

[Wisdom]

shaddow is newer than infinity..?

[Wisdom]

idk, I've only played one game with him

[Wisdom]

wraith may I interest you in a shaddow vote?

[Wisdom]

me refusing to answer means im scum? because what stopped me from just telling you "im messing up with my meta" or any other bullshit answer if i was scum?

[Wisdom]

i dont like this thought process

[Wisdom]

you do realize how fake you're sounding, right?

[Wisdom]

wraith's post re:shaddow is weird
You feel like hes going to be forcing a scumread on him when it begins but by the end hes actually doing the "i dont understand why this is being voted" thing
I dont know what to think here

[Wisdom]

Townread on farside is more solid now

[Wisdom]

I think it’s again a bad sign for Wisdom that two players I have townreads on (Nacho from #247 and kraska from #206) and one player I don’t (Infinity from #208) both have nullreads on shadow from his limited ISO while Wisdom somehow has a scumread from it.

this feels a little forced
"I don't get how Wisdom has a different opinion than others = bad sign for Wisdom"
nah

[Wisdom]

Generally, the vibe I’ve been getting from Wisdom all game is that he wants the approval of other players and actively seeks it out rather than building an actual case against his scumreads, and I think that’s scummy

you have the right vibe, you just described my playstyle. I work with people, I don't make cases.

[Wisdom]

• How Wisdom is “leaning town” on Bulbazak in #377 after only two posts by the latter player is puzzling. In #379 Wisdom posts in reads list and has Leonshade as “leaning scum” – how he leans scum for Leon (who has one post) and leans town for Bulba (who had two posts at that point) seems really contradictory

bad for the same reason as above
you're pretending to be the judge of how I am getting my reads when you are not in my mind and you don't think like I do

[Wisdom]

• Wisdom’s #343 is just strange. He tries to draw me to the shadow wagon in #405, so I read shadow’s ISO and find a couple things I don’t like but not very much. But then Wisdom says my post on that ISO is odd because it feels like I was trying to “force a scumread.” Did he want me to just vote for shadow without a read at all?

I expected you to give a solid stance on him but you waffled - started with weak reasons with which to scumread him and it appeared like you were going to force a scumread on him - but then you went "eh I like this post so I don't see why I should vote him"
Doesn't say much, you could still be buddies, but I found it notable

[Wisdom]

Ok, so you say things you dislike about me, then I respond to them in 227, then you state them again without addressing my responses while referencing the post my responses are in. This shit pisses me off.

Agreed, he did that to me too. He says for example he doesn't understand a few of my reads without addressing where I explained them at all.

[Wisdom]

Posts like Nacho’s #98 are posts I especially like, because they’re posts that follow the same line of thinking as me,

and since I’m town, and tend to assume people who following the same lines of thinking as town!me are also town

.

also I feel like he unnecessarily puts emphasis on how he's town here. The post would still carry his point even if he didn't include what I bolded.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: wraith

Once more you avoid answering to me

[Wisdom]

Does anyone know if farside does pre-flip associatives a lot as town?

yeah, she does. also she tunnels easily. I'm confident we're seeing her town game here.

[Wisdom]

He has like 9 posts in total. I mean...not much to get from it.

sure? that's irrelevant to my point

[Wisdom]

9 posts are plenty for a solid read, but that's not the point here

I am not scumreading you for being unable to produce a solid read; I am noting how you waffled on a player because it will be useful in case you flip scum

[Wisdom]

also no I just wanted to see if you'd vote him, if you'd try to defend him, etc for the same reason. No traps.

Though the fact you see it as a trap means you're worried about how people read your actions - as town I believe you wouldn't care about such "traps", no?

[Wisdom]

it wont be. Is there a point to that?

pedit: ill take that as a yes

[Wisdom]

farside you are wrong here

[Wisdom]

your reason for scumreading me is still bad

[Wisdom]

ignore her. She will realize youre town on her own at some point.

[Wisdom]

there's a part of me that thinks that farside is pushing this thing harder than she believes in order to try to get a read or something.

Thats what i think cakez is doing with me

[Wisdom]

I dont think he really believes in it. Weve played a lot where he should know better than to think he can read me by a simple playstyle change. I think hes just trying to get reactions from me or otherwise.

[Wisdom]

Also agreeing with your post about Wraith. Thats basically what i was trying to say in 434.

[Wisdom]

they're theory questions is what she meant

[Wisdom]

do resist it

[Wisdom]

nope, still L-2

[Wisdom]

Then why don't you explain your thought process?

I did? Is there a read I haven't explained?

[Wisdom]

Everything within me is screaming that this is Wisdom's scum game.

Elaborate please because I'm starting to not buy it

[Wisdom]

Anyways my scum list look like this:

Wraith < Infinity < Bulba < Leon (weird reason why he is in here)

how do you feel about shaddow?

if you replaced infinity with him we'd agree.

[Wisdom]

If Wisdom showed even an ounce of interest in working with me then maybe I'd reconsider. But instead he's just being all stubborn which is

yet another trait ive always seen in wisdom and shouldnt be pretending is alignment indicative

Fixed that for you

[Wisdom]

also

Off the top of my head, you, Tammy, Kagami, and Bulba are all players who the super aggressive tactic wouldn't work on as scum, so he's being forced to go the friendly route
Like Soccer Spirits was a playerlist he could roll over, but not here

This is a game that features scum-Wisdom vs Town-Nacho, Town-Tammy, Town-Kagami (and Town-farside as an extra). Check out what route I went.

[Wisdom]

you starting off with defending yourself is not making me feel better about you

[Wisdom]

nobody talked about your inactivity

[Wisdom]

^dont like this either

[Wisdom]

Wraith/shadow/Leon is my first attempt at a guess

still think this is right

[Wisdom]

So, you do realize I never actually said she was scum, it was just something I look out for? Also, if you want to ask anyone about me and semantics arguments you can ask Wisdom about Episode 1.

^scum trying to defend through selfmeta

[Wisdom]

VOTE: shaddow

Wraith is probably the wrong one in my scumpile if anyone is

[Wisdom]

VOTE: leon

[Wisdom]

This wall reads like scum 101 to me. Full of pointless comments just to look like "content"

now you're on a better path

any comments on Leon?

[Wisdom]

good. join us on Leon. Or shaddow really. I could lynch either.

[Wisdom]

Vote shadow instead

do you dislike the wagon on leon?

[Wisdom]

you find his latest posts not AI?

I found them needlessly defensive

[Wisdom]

infinity you're making me worry

[Wisdom]

:/

This reaction usually comes from frustrated scumbuddies

[Wisdom]

ok lets do this another way

We agree shaddow is scum, right? Who do you think are his buddies?

[Wisdom]

Grey have you played with Bulba before?

[Wisdom]

Infinity, your insistence on voting shaddow is not really warranted by the argument you presented. Do you have something stronger than that?

[Wisdom]

Thats even worse than your reason for voting him.

[Wisdom]

Maybe, I don't remember.

Bulba has the tendency to appear very scummy if youre not familiar with him. There was a game where i sweared hes scum, none of his posts made sense as town in my mind, yet he still was town. Im not saying hes town here, im saying dont be quick to scumread him.

[Wisdom]

You can try. I have reasons to think bulba might be town while i have none for Leon, so Leon is a better lynch.

[Wisdom]

It's all questions that go nowhere. Never get followed up. Easiest style of scum ever, lurk hard, quote some posts, ask some questions, hop on an easy wagon now and then. Make no waves.

This "case" is basically "I dislike his playstyle"
You cant exactly make such a case and refuse to consider meta.

[Wisdom]

That makes two people who are trying to save Leon with a shitty push on someone else

Do you have any reads other than Bulba, grey?

[Wisdom]

Ive already explained both of the things you asked and im not repeating myself

On the other hand you just entered the game and have no excuse on not giving reads on anyone other than your shitty tunnel

So, your reads, or ill just assume youre Leon's buddy and act accordingly

[Wisdom]

cool beans

I just want to call this Leon/Infinity/Grey and bank it but its never that easy, is it

[Wisdom]

Wisdom

There's no way my activity for the past day has completely changed my read on you

Explain

yep
you desperately trying to save my scumread can't possibly make me question your alignment

[Wisdom]

or my next post will contain a vote for you and I will not stop until you are dead.

go on, let's see who will end up dead

fake bravado someone else

[Wisdom]

I possess the power to remove you from the game right this instant

I'm this close to using it

[Wisdom]

yeah it's probably still Leon/shaddow and someone else and both Infinity and Grey are being idiots, but yeah

[Wisdom]

a lot of words to basically say "why me"

[Wisdom]

P-edit: Feel free to keep scumreading me,

I'll find the scum on my wagon myself.

The bold just makes me think you want us to think you're hunting for scum on your wagon because that's what's expected from town.

[Wisdom]

Ok leon might just be scum. Wisdom pretty much nailed it, I don't see why town would care so much and spend so many words defending themselves at the moment when they haven't even caught up yet.

really? because a few hours ago you said that my reasons for voting Leon are bad and yours are better. What changed?

[Wisdom]

yes, what about it?

[Wisdom]

You think that his latest post was scum indicative but all of his previous ones weren't?

[Wisdom]

(by latest I mean the one you linked)

[Wisdom]

Correct.

Why? He was as defensive in the previous ones too. What's different now?

[Wisdom]

My only reason Leon might be scum is because I'm tonwreading so many people right now.

Any scumreads?

[Wisdom]

meh
I still find it disturbing how easily you 180'd based on a single post but whatever

[Wisdom]

What is your take on Grey since you keep asking about him?

[Wisdom]

stab: Bulbazak

bye

[Wisdom]

mhm

[Wisdom]

oh well.

Info: I now require one less vote to lynch because I stabbed town.

VOTE: Leon

[Wisdom]

confidence

[Wisdom]

VOTE: grey

[Wisdom]

I'm Belkar, Kagami.

[Wisdom]

i should haven given in to my impulses the first time

[Wisdom]

I wanted to stab grey, like I actually typed it and deleted it after 674

[Wisdom]

nope
nothing about evilness in my role pm

[Wisdom]

i dont explain shit to scumfucks

[Wisdom]

Its those three anyway

Leon/Grey/shaddow

I dont see who else can be scum

[Wisdom]

Especially shadow he barely put out Any content to read him off of
Leon on the other hand is kind of obvious scum

shadow is pretty obvious too

[Wisdom]

lol at Leon unvoting his buddy now

[Wisdom]

no kraska. Theyre already obvious buddies via gray trying to save him with his bullshit push on bulba.

[Wisdom]

Besides if that was the case he wouldnt have voted him
Hes just going with the flow

[Wisdom]

He did consider it, Infinity

[Wisdom]

VOTE: leon

This one is better

[Wisdom]

"stupid bluff" = reaction test

[Wisdom]

Yeah you totally caught the slot lying just because he had a few mr scruffy references
Leon is bullshiting left and right

[Wisdom]

Belkar flavor is town. GI is neither belkar nor Mr. Scruffy. It's apparently some coincidence that wraith did the scruffy stuff pre-game.

He or his fakeclaim could be Shojo

[Wisdom]

VOTE: grey

I believe Leon's claim and i dont care to lynch him

[Wisdom]

we can leash the vig shot at the very least

[Wisdom]

Well if hes xykon he will be unable to carry out the vig without wasting the scumkill
Maybe thats what grey is going for?

[Wisdom]

Hes not town aligned or he wouldnt have a fakeclaim, kagami is right there

[Wisdom]

I very sincerely don't understand why Wisdom shot Bulbazak but that might just be reading failure;

It was either that or chain of command #2

[Wisdom]

oh hell no. If we're not lynching him we're having him shot.

[Wisdom]

I only have fond memories.
Me-ffery obvious scum, right?

That was perpetual mylo

[Wisdom]

yeah im also starting to think hes just xykon

We'll have him shoot whoever we dont lynch from grey/shaddow and see what happens

[Wisdom]

Grey is a better lynch than shaddow btw

The vig is not guaranteed to happen while the lynch is, and while shaddow is definitely not surviving to endgame, grey is good enough to survive

[Wisdom]

If Leon is actual 3p ill start considering nacho for third scum tbh

Hes barely said anything about shaddow and now hes trying to give grey time

[Wisdom]

blame bulba and his manilulative looking fake looking paranoia of me

(Or just blame me for not hosting a vote about who gets stabbed like i was planning)

[Wisdom]

If nacho is scum the one time I'm not tunneling him I'm going to kms

Thats how it used to happen with me

[Wisdom]

no, whats silly is letting grey live

Who is scum other than shaddow, nacho?

[Wisdom]

Not that youve pushed shaddow as scum at all, of course...

[Wisdom]

So who would you have leon shoot?

[Wisdom]

Not sure who #3 is in worlds where Leon is telling the truth.

"#3" implies you agree that shaddow and grey are a given and contradicts your stance re:grey

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, who is your #3 if Leon is lyncher?

you

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, who is your #3 if Leon is lyncher?

you

Because I said that we should vote shadow over Grey today?

Yes, and because youve ignored shaddow all game

[Wisdom]

No, its not unreasonable
If i could see scumminess in shaddow then you could too

[Wisdom]

No, its not unreasonable
If i could see scumminess in shaddow then you could too

We could also have different opinions on something. You could feel stronger about something than I did.

Sure. The problem is you felt nothing at all, even when i asked you for a read on him.

[Wisdom]

blame bulba and his manilulative looking fake looking paranoia of me

(Or just blame me for not hosting a vote about who gets stabbed like i was planning)

I want a better answer about why you shot Bulba than this.

This question doesnt make me feel better about you

You should know better

[Wisdom]

agreeing that tammy is def town

[Wisdom]

nope

[Wisdom]

theres no way we're lynching leon
Thats what scum want to avoid the vig shot

[Wisdom]

and yes im back to thinking hes 3p

[Wisdom]

In any case we're letting him live, we direct his kill, and we see what happens

We're not letting scum get rid of him today

[Wisdom]

Yes nacho, i said it the last time he was catching up that i was starting not to buy his paranoia. And now i got more of the same.
You should know better that if i started fighting with him it wouldnt end well. So i got rid of him.

[Wisdom]

I wasnt feeling that good. It felt too easy.

[Wisdom]

Heres where we stop listening to anything grey says

[Wisdom]

For everyone thinking there's three killing roles and all of them want to kill scum.
Note in Brotherhood to counteract this he specifically added a scum bulletproof.

And what stops him from doing it here too? Or a scum doc? The scum characters fit both as Kagami already said

[Wisdom]

And no we're not letting a single person dictate a shot, conftown or not. I know how this sounds after i used mine without asking anyone but it does not need to be repeated.

[Wisdom]

if we lynch grey, you vig shaddow
if we lynch shaddow, you vig grey

[Wisdom]

no idea why you think i'd make that kill as non town

[Wisdom]

the only reason I can come up with that I'd do it as non-town would be to emulate town-me

I mean, you've played with me. Do you imagine me holding on to a dayvig for long?

[Wisdom]

I felt like he was handwaving my questions without really wanting to talk with me

And how he talked about me to Nacho felt manipulative - "Town-Wisdom would do X and Y" and stuff. I am tired of seeing this from people who should know better.

Then he said I was "friendly scum" in HU2 which is wrong.

In general his read on me was starting to feel really fake

[Wisdom]

because this is town farside