Mini 1851 : Order of the Stick Mafia - Epilogue

[Infinity 324]

Eating some ice cream and it's really good

VOTE: nacho

[Infinity 324]

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

Why no vote?

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom pointed out something that seems to be scummy for him

I was wondering why he didn't vote

[Infinity 324]

infinity you're trying too hard and me no like

Better than not trying hard enough, at least

[Infinity 324]

Vote: Infinity 324

Think your better than farside22 and kraska77?

Hmm?

[Infinity 324]

Outside looking in.

Vote: infinity

This vote is interesting because it seems to be a wagon vote but not on the top wagon.

Unless you actually scumread me?

[Infinity 324]

Could be because she doesn't want a wagon at L-2, or because she wants multiple wagons, or because she wants to appear like she's doing something without voting the top wagon. I really don't know at this point.

[Infinity 324]

It's the top wagon because it has the most votes.

I don't get what you're trying to say here.

[Infinity 324]

Well

Pere I just didn't understand his statement

Farside's vote I just found odd

[Infinity 324]

because she doesn't want a wagon at L-2

and

because she wants to appear like she's doing something without voting the top wagon.

I think you're trying to read too much into this

[Infinity 324]

This is going to be a long game.

[Infinity 324]

Nothing he's done so far is AI imo

[Infinity 324]

Ha! I thought it had something to do with the numbers.

Tammy - Understanding P5's humor since 2016. Go me!

Infinity - Did you just vote nacho because there was a wagon started on him already?

Yes

Well

Pere I just didn't understand his statement

Farside's vote I just found odd

You all have numbers in your names. They are repeating double digits. Yours is a non-repeating triple digits. Thus "You think you are better than farside22 and kraska77?"

Farside

22

probably just agreed with me.

She also said this, FWIW

Outside looking in.

I didn't really get that

Here's a spoiler on my fill in the blanks, infinity:

One likely reason for town-farside's vote is that she agrees with wisdom. The other reasons are uninteresting and generally in line with the "not wanting to take nacho to L-2" thought, though I don't think she'd vote you in particular if that were the case.

For scum-farside, the reason is once again Wisdom's earlier statement. She'd feel that there's a real possibility the wagon has legs and be happy to be on early, especially when there's not a real need to justify it. I find your reasoning to be fairly shallow and unlikely. I see no attempt to "appear to be doing something."

You're entitled to your opinion. Since I don't think farside's vote was particularly scummy, I'm not going to bother to argue it.

[Infinity 324]

? I'm not

Do you have any other thoughts

[Infinity 324]

Is there a legit scumhunting purpose for that question? (You can answer after the question is answered)

[Infinity 324]

Yes it thought it was serious.

I find questioning odd things often gives insight into people's motives.

[Infinity 324]

Hopefully my playstyle will mesh a little better if I get some sleep. Night people

[Infinity 324]

Rule out is prob a bit strong, but scum-infinity would consider that town-wisdom was correct about him tryhard-ing and would give particular weight to that opinion.

Instead he appears to have completely ignored wisdom's post in considering farside's position.

How do you think he would have responded to it as scum? I'm skeptical because I'm not really sure how him giving weight to that opinion would translate to the thread, if that makes sense.

I think it would translate, at the very least, in him thinking that farside potentially had a reasonable motive for voting him, which doesn't come across in our discussion of farside's motives.

Kagami is spending all his time trying to sort specifically me, which is odd to me. But he still seems town for now. Gut town lean on Tammy.

VOTE: wraith

[Infinity 324]

I think wisdom and infinity are the same alignment.

Oh and not just for the sake of completion:

What "rules out" the infinity-town and wisdom-scum combination?

[Infinity 324]

I don't like his posting

It could just be an odd style but he also doesn't seem to be trying to scumhunt

[Infinity 324]

@Nacho: Can you explain what you were trying to accomplish with your questioning of shadow?

[Infinity 324]

I haven't seen someone use OMGUS as a scumtell in about 3 years

[Infinity 324]

Kagami is spending all his time trying to sort specifically me, which is odd to me.

Why? It's not like a whole lot of time has passed since game start.

Well there are quite a few other players that have posted but kagami specifically focused on just me.

@MOI: V/LA until Sunday the 13th.

Townreading Inf for his early play, don't see the scum motivation in his play. I think he's immediately scumhunting and trying to get the game going.

VOTE: kraska

What do you think of Infinity questioning Farside about her vote on him but not challenging Wisdom's early push?

What push?

[Infinity 324]

Two things. First, if you have a read on a particular person, shouldn't you pursue that and/or pressure them? What's specifically odd about trying to sort out one person, especially without knowing their motivation for doing so?

It's odd because there are a lot of people that posted relevant things and he could've tried to sort me and other people. Not knowing the motivation doesn't make the activity more normal.

Second - why discuss other people in your post, and then vote Wraith with no other mention of him in your post?

I didn't want to explain my reasons right away, but then I realized there wasn't a particular reason to hold them back

What push?

Wisdom saying that you were trying too hard early.

I didn't see that as a push/pointing out of something scummy (correct me if I'm wrong wisdom)

our argument was that scum were more likely to post with qualifying language, with the exception that sometimes people use/don't use qualifying language based on personality. My rebuttal was that Tammy using qualifying language was part of her personality.

You respond to the response to my question but don't answer the question...

I think my play has been pretty shitty so far, partly because of not sleeping, so I'll try to step it up.

[Infinity 324]

to be clearer: Making a post without being over the top tryhard is not a playstyle adjustment, therefore arguing "yeah he wouldnt playstyle adjust so you dont have a point" is bullshit

i dont see how infinity was being "over the top tryhard" i think it was the opposite his posting emanates nervousness/wariness. but nyway ur point was he would have stopped probing people for answers to useless questions...which is still bs considering the timespan

I don't like "you can't possibly believe this you're scum" arguments, do you often find that you can find scum in that way?

[Infinity 324]

I didn't see that as a push/pointing out of something scummy (correct me if I'm wrong wisdom)

you're wrong and i dont get how you can still think this when there are discussions about your reaction to said push as well as my read progression on you.

I though wraith read it incorrectly

I'm on a roll aren't I

on wisdom...i dont feel one way or the other about him right now. his iso so far is just him agreeing and echoing people. the only post where he brings something novel to the table was the cringe post i quoted above....i need to see more posts from wisdom

Ok.

It's not really the read I have an issue with, it's your argument. You're trying to argue that wisdom's reason for calling me town is scummy, because you think it's unlikely he would believe that as town, correct? If not I don't get what you're trying to accomplish here

[Infinity 324]

I think wisdom and infinity are the same alignment.

Oh and not just for the sake of completion:

What "rules out" the infinity-town and wisdom-scum combination?

@kagami

I don't like his posting

It could just be an odd style but he also doesn't seem to be trying to scumhunt

@kraska

[Infinity 324]

It's not really the read I have an issue with, it's your argument. You're trying to argue that wisdom's reason for calling me town is scummy, because you think it's unlikely he would believe that as town, correct? If not I don't get what you're trying to accomplish here

no its exactky like i said...i dont have a read on him and im poking for more content thats all

THOUSANDTH pedit:LET ME POST

Got it.

[Infinity 324]

I've played 3 other games with town!leon and his first post was always scummy

[Infinity 324]

I just ISO'd wisdom and he's done quite a bit of not a lot. I'd like to see more questioning from you I guess wisdom

[Infinity 324]

i just went through shadows iso...nothing stands out to me so far...but he needs to post more content bc most of his iso is about his pedantic comment on tammy's post

Agree with this.

[Infinity 324]

I also think the townreads on infinity aren't terribly well justified, and am suspicious that three players have it. I would guess that exactly one infinity-defender is scum regardless of his alignment.

That would be wisdom, leon, and who else?

[Infinity 324]

So re the first point, you're saying that I as scum, recognized the obvious joke yet tried to push it when I knew the push would fall apart because ???

And the only reason I posted so much about my comment wrt farside is because kagami questioned me on it.

But I don't think this is a good vote anymore. I'm getting slight townvibes from wraith

VOTE: wisdom

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

[Infinity 324]

So re the first point, you're saying that I as scum, recognized the obvious joke yet tried to push it when I knew the push would fall apart because ???

And the only reason I posted so much about my comment wrt farside is because kagami questioned me on it.

But I don't think this is a good vote anymore. I'm getting slight townvibes from wraith

VOTE: wisdom

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

@wraith

[Infinity 324]

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

Explain? This seems like a ridiculous reason for voting.

Quite a bit of non-scumhunting related stuff, a few reads, and not much questioning in his ISO. That's it

I think we're playstyle clashing because you're a lot more methodical than I am. Early game a lot of what I do is to spit out things that come to my mind in order to generate discussion

[Infinity 324]

I didn't want to explain my reasons right away, but then I realized there wasn't a particular reason to hold them back

I like this post.

You respond to the response to my question but don't answer the question...

Sorry, I thought I answered it at work. I questioned shaddowez on the point because I thought it was weak and silly and I wanted to see if she was genuine about it. Did you think my line of questioning was unreasonable?

Ok. It seemed like you were trying to argue "your point is bad" without a reason I could see on the surface.

Did you get anything out of it?

[Infinity 324]

because he's Nacho, duh

says infinity who tried to question a joke

Do you know me to be scared to push a scumread?

kraska do things please

yeah because posting without tryharding is such a huge adjustment

pedit: yes

to be clearer: Making a post without being over the top tryhard is not a playstyle adjustment, therefore arguing "yeah he wouldnt playstyle adjust so you dont have a point" is bullshit

he voted me for it so strange = scummy in this context
So basically you agree with him that what happened in between doesn't justify my infinity townread?
Because all I'm seeing is Wraith opportunistically finding something he can push here

so you're infinity
you're nervous (we mean the same btw, by tryharding I mean he doesn't know what to say so he's trying too hard where he shouldn't), so you try to question Wisdom's joke about Tammy being scum
Tammy points out it's a joke, Wisdom gives you an evil eye and states he doesn't appreciate you tryharding
And your response to this is finding yet another post to tryhard on? (This time about farside voting a wagon but not the top wagon)

(defending himself really)

I didn't see that as a push/pointing out of something scummy (correct me if I'm wrong wisdom)

you're wrong and i dont get how you can still think this when there are discussions about your reaction to said push as well as my read progression on you.

I don't like "you can't possibly believe this you're scum" arguments, do you often find that you can find scum in that way?

what are you saying here? because I don't see such an argument in kraska's post

id probably do it even if we were buddies tbh

wraith and cakez?

None of them are an issue on their own, but when added up they become a (small) issue

[Infinity 324]

Ok. It seemed like you were trying to argue "your point is bad" without a reason I could see on the surface.

Did you get anything out of it?

I'm getting things out of it, yes. Why did you think that me addressing it in the way that I did was odd when also thought it was a weird way to scumhunt when you first saw it?

Hmm?

[Infinity 324]

none of those are actually fluff. the closest is #19, which is the response to a question and not really his point.
i can explain why there are scumhunting in each of these posts is necessary but I don't really feel like it should be; how is Wisdom detailing his reasons for townreading you in response to people calling the townread on you weak "fluff"?

It's not fluff, but it's not scumhunting either and not really necessary imo when no one was scumreading him for it

Hmm?

When Shaddowez first made the "tammy said I believe! She's scum!" point, you asked if that was a legitimate scumhunting question or not.
I pushed the reasoning for being bad.
Both of these approaches seem to share the same purpose; am I missing something here?

Right yeah. There's kind of a double standard here but I expected you to have some sort of purpose behind it whereas mine didn't really when I thought about it afterwards.

Anyway the main reason I brought it up was because after a certain point you seemed to be arguing that his reason was wrong instead of wondering whether it was genuine. I guess that's mainly my issue here.

[Infinity 324]

It's not really the read I have an issue with, it's your argument. You're trying to argue that wisdom's reason for calling me town is scummy, because you think it's unlikely he would believe that as town, correct? If not I don't get what you're trying to accomplish here

what?

and to expand on this a little bit, your argument here is that "I disagree with your argument, I think it's bullshit" is a weird approach to have as town in a game which is weird because exactly the approach you're taking with kraska right now.

Well the difference here is that I'm questioning, but I read kraska's post that I quoted as making a judgment. I don't think kraska doing that is scummy.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity re:Wisdom- it is a playstyle thing

Interesting, because I remember him being different when I played with him before

it's not scumhunting either and not really necessary imo when no one was scumreading him for it

I disagree strongly with the first part, have no idea what you're saying with the "it wasn't necessary" part.

The way I see it, he was defending himself from kraska, who had no read on him.

Doesn't seem particularly productive to me.

[Infinity 324]

I didn't see that as a push/pointing out of something scummy (correct me if I'm wrong wisdom)

you're wrong and i dont get how you can still think this when there are discussions about your reaction to said push as well as my read progression on you.

I don't like "you can't possibly believe this you're scum" arguments, do you often find that you can find scum in that way?

what are you saying here? because I don't see such an argument in kraska's post

Ok. Explain these.

[Infinity 324]

The way I see it, he was defending himself from kraska, who had no read on him.

Doesn't seem particularly productive to me.

no, kraska stated that she thought my post re:you was scummy, and further she defended Wraith on the matter.
You think it's not important trying to understand why someone is defending my scumread, or trying to understand why she found my post scummy?

I'm ok with questioning her defense of wraith

I don't see how you were trying to understand why she found your post scummy/sorting her in the process.

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

re: the unvote, it was a combination of not being sure that the off-topic-ish things are scummy and liking wisdom's reaction

[Infinity 324]

re: the unvote, it was a combination of not being sure that the off-topic-ish things are scummy and liking wisdom's reaction

what about wisdom's reaction did you like?
you don't see the point we're making about those posts that you pointed out not being off-topic at all?

I liked wisdom's reaction for gut, I guess

I see your point, but I don't really agree with it.

[Infinity 324]

i dont know why youve come to expect questioning from me
wasnt i a lot less transparent in true love?

Uh, I don't remember. But you were different. More aggressive, I guess.

[Infinity 324]

cakes' case is very shallow

[Infinity 324]

I liked Infinity for town-lean early but as time goes on I like him less.

No he wasn't @farside

Not sure I like the wraith wagon. The wisdom vote was weird but very sloppy for scum play.

Would like other answers about whether cakez is this shallow as scum vs. town

@cakez What do you think about wisdom's response that he changed playstyle because he felt like it? Do you think that's unlikely?

I don't know who scum is, but that's ok I guess. This game I'll try a more patient approach and not judge anyone until I have a solid read on them.

[Infinity 324]

Yes, "town lean" is in the sentence "I like

d

infinity for town-lean". I don't see how that's relevant. And then he pointed out the stuff in his next post, which was 3 posts later I believe. I don't see the issue.

I voted him because...he commented on a bunch of stuff without trying to scumhunt, but his latest post made me feel a little better in that regard.

But I'm not saying he's town and a wagon on him is as good as any (except maybe cakez). So *shrug*

[Infinity 324]

@cakez Ok, even if it's not "because I felt like it". Do you think town!wisdom could potentially want to hide his reason for changing? Don't you think scum!wisdom would've tried to give a better response? Meta changes, so "this is different therefore it's scum" seems weak and I dislike that you're not considering town motivation for changing meta.

[Infinity 324]

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

Mr. Scruffy feels excluded from this conversation because it seems like people are using meta to scumhunt on farside.

? I'm not

Do you have any other thoughts

Mr. Scruffy re-read the last page and now realizes where you were coming from.

He also says no, not at this time.

I'm late rip

VOTE: wisdom

Mr. Scruffy would like to know if this is an RVS vote or has actual backing.

This stuff is at the very least weak in terms of scumhunting motivation

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: cakez

Maybe I'm colored by my frustration but this is shitty.

He just refuses to consider town motivation for changing meta and also refuses to consider the disadvantages of playing so obviously differently as scum when multiple people in the game have played with him before.

I think town would be approaching it differently.

[Infinity 324]

If you're actually concerned about wisdom not trying to appease you, why don't you express doubts? Or question him on other things?

[Infinity 324]

Not to mention coming in with a single scumread and making little effort to sort anyone else is shitty play from town and more likely to come from scum.

[Infinity 324]

I love it when people refuse to look beyond the surface but I can't read them as scum for it because town do that too.

Think. Maybe scum!farside wouldn't say something that would be disproved so easily? Maybe her issue is bigger than "I didn't see that you said why you're read changed therefore you're scum"?

[Infinity 324]

wisdom, what do you think about Tammy, nacho, and bulbazwk?

[Infinity 324]

Ok. Who is your top pick for some outside of your main reads

[Infinity 324]

Why town leans on bulba and cakez

[Infinity 324]

My shitty play so far is really just because I haven't gotten enough sleep and because I often struggle on d1.

I don't see the gears turning in cakez's head. I can see how he would be uneasy with wisdom changing up his style, but making a judgement so early without trying to figure him out is somewhat scummy imo.

[Infinity 324]

(yes I'm POEing this early deal with it, I have a ton of townreads)

I like this line

[Infinity 324]

Yeah well, scum get townread d1 in pretty much every game, even strongly townread.

[Infinity 324]

And I'm sure I'll get shit for this but I feel comfortable calling wraith and Infinity scum and would vote for either.
I noted 2 times Infinity stated issues with wraith but stayed mostly away from voting him and finding his vote onto others instead for rather weak reason's.
Also crazy enough I'm scum reading bulba.
Cakez moved to null.

I had issues with wraith, yes.

They mainly had to do with him not scumhunting. Whatever you want to say about him, he's scumhunting now.

I don't particularly like his posts, but I don't think they're scummy

[Infinity 324]

I will say my scumread on cakez is lessened. Partly because of how many people agree about wisdom's meta change. (Still I find it odd that it would be so obvious and odd that cakez wouldn't consider that, but ok)

My vote stays where it is for now.

[Infinity 324]

I've played one game with him

[Infinity 324]

Sorry farside you're just wrong here. I'm allowed to have an opinion that's different from yours, and you're pretending like you're seen my towngame to be able to judge what I would think? I think wraith is attempting to scumhunt now. I don't think he was before. I think his current play would be unusual coming from scum and rather sloppy for scum play. I think it would be similarly odd coming from town which is why he's null. I'm sitting here having that opinion about wraith's play, and you're sitting here saying that I couldn't possibly have that opinion. So you do you I guess, but it's kind of difficult to work with you when you're in this tunnel state.

Also I never voted shaddow so ???

[Infinity 324]

Well, you have seen my towngame in princess bride. Point still stands.

[Infinity 324]

• Again I immediately have a problem with Infinity’s nitpicking re: Wisdom early. I ignored it the first time but every time I re-read it I like it less
• Like I said #221, Infinity in #51 acts strangely when he claims he doesn’t think farside’s vote on him is scummy and won’t argue about it when he spent much of the second page arguing about it

Ok, so you say things you dislike about me, then I respond to them in 227, then you state them again without addressing my responses

while referencing the post my responses are in.

This shit pisses me off.

• Still don’t like that Infinity admits he put his RVS on Nacho because there was an RVS wagon forming there

Why?

And why am I null instead of a scumread when you said multiple times you think I'm scummy?

• I have a pretty strong early townread on Nacho and that hasn’t changed
• Posts like Nacho’s #98 are posts I especially like, because they’re posts that follow the same line of thinking as me, and since I’m town, and tend to assume people who following the same lines of thinking as town!me are also town. That may seem strange regarding this particular post, since it’s criticizing one of my own posts, but in hindsight I do see how dumb that particular post of mine was and I’ve come to the same conclusion
• Yeah, I should’ve waited for SirCakez to make his own case re: his vote on Wisdom in #120. I was overeager to find something to get a scumread on (I really hate D1 and RVS) and as a result I think I blew an opportunity to get a more accurate early gauge on SirCakez. And again this ties into my strong townread on Nacho because he calls me out on it in #143
• Again Nacho #229 saying what I’m thinking

So much appeasing and buddying

Seriously, you do this shit and call me out for buddying when I say I have townvibes from you?

As much as I dislike about this wraith post, the fake-feeling appeasing and buddying of nacho is the only thing that's scummy. But that's worth a vote

VOTE: wraith

[Infinity 324]

^ I agree

[Infinity 324]

Does anyone know if farside does pre-flip associatives a lot as town?

[Infinity 324]

Why?

And why am I null instead of a scumread when you said multiple times you think I'm scummy?

Because I question the motive a player might have to get momentum on a wagon based on pure RVS. I don't see much reason for it.

First of all, you're not "null," you're "murky," which I'd tried to signify by putting you at the bottom of the "neutral/murky" tier.

Why not soft scumread? Because there's enough doubt in my mind that you could simply be misguided town.

Actual wagons tend to get discussion going a lot quicker than vanity wagons.

I love how you're still not addressing my responses in 277.

[Infinity 324]

I mean 227

[Infinity 324]

So re the first point, you're saying that I as scum, recognized the obvious joke yet tried to push it when I knew the push would fall apart because ???

And the only reason I posted so much about my comment wrt farside is because kagami questioned me on it.

But I don't think this is a good vote anymore. I'm getting slight townvibes from wraith

VOTE: wisdom

I don't like how much fluff this guy has

@wraith

[Infinity 324]

If someone wants to meta me, they can ask me for links and do it properly. I would never play like this as scum, and I didn't even play like this in poker mafia.

No shit it's a quick turnaround, it's page 19 and I don't have any strong scumreads. If someone does something scummy I'll vote.

And forgive me if I don't remember the specifics of a game that ended months ago.

It might do you some good to consider town motivation

[Infinity 324]

But if you think I'm bussing wraith, get back on wraith

[Infinity 324]

By the way farside, I would love it if you actually engaged with me or with people who townread me...tunneling on someone without considering their town motivation and without engaging with them is just shitty play, I'm sorry.

[Infinity 324]

sup

[Infinity 324]

I don't need to engage with you. You're the one calling me scum. It's your responsibility to engage with me and ask questions and figure out if your scumread is correct.

Your implication that my "defense" of wraith in this game is similar to my defense of mm in poker mafia is laughable. I defend town and sometimes scum as both alignments. And as I said before, I can't be fucked to remember your specific actions from a game that ended months ago. You seem to take a large amount of issue with me asking a question with respect to that for some reason.

Great, we have a question! Although, if you looked at the post where I voted, it would answer your question completely. When I'm null on someone before, and they do something scummy, well then they might just turn into a scumread.

[Infinity 324]

Whatever you want to say about him, he's scumhunting now.

I think your issue might be with the wording of this post

I meant to say something more along the lines of "he's scumhunting or pretending to scumhunt"

[Infinity 324]

How's it going tammy

What's your opinion on wraith? bulba? wisdom?

And what should I do about farside since it's really starting to piss me off :/

[Infinity 324]

Ok

[Infinity 324]

Cool.

Would love to see this by the way vv

(I'd like you to talk about that read a little more in depth.)

[Infinity 324]

Must...resist...continuing...dumb...argument

[Infinity 324]

Farside, I'd be happy to answer questions of yours that aren't loaded and haven't been answered in my posts already. It's just not going to get us anywhere rehashing the same points over and over.

I think there's ammo that farside could've used against me that she didn't and it's weirding me out. I won't say what it is just yet, but I will say that it makes her more likely to be town since the most likely scenario is that she doesn't consider it ammo. Whereas a scum tunneler would use everything and anything to justify their case.

[Infinity 324]

I love it when people refuse to look beyond the surface but I can't read them as scum for it because town do that too.

Think. Maybe scum!farside wouldn't say something that would be disproved so easily? Maybe her issue is bigger than "I didn't see that you said why you're read changed therefore you're scum"?

This is the same thing that you were doing before.... You're arguing that Wraith is only looking skin deep because he's pushing farside too hard for saying something silly and yet you're pushing Cakez for saying something silly at the exact same time.

Maybe, they are very different cases though and my issue on cakez was a little more nuanced than that.

[Infinity 324]

Maybe, they are very different cases though and my issue on cakez was a little more nuanced than that.

Could you explain the nuance a little better for me?

The combination of the shallow read, the lack of questioning on wisdom, and the initial focus solely on wisdom are what led to my scumread. I'd have to look at farside's thing but iirc it was a lot more trivial than that.

[Infinity 324]

Farside, I'd be happy to answer questions of yours that aren't loaded and haven't been answered in my posts already. It's just not going to get us anywhere rehashing the same points over and over.

I think there's ammo that farside could've used against me that she didn't and it's weirding me out. I won't say what it is just yet, but I will say that it makes her more likely to be town since the most likely scenario is that she doesn't consider it ammo. Whereas a scum tunneler would use everything and anything to justify their case.

Do you feel the same way about me?

Well at least you're bringing up different instances of the same type of argument and the discussion seems to be getting somewhere. Not the case with farside.

[Infinity 324]

I also think your questions are quite a bit more reasonable than farside's arguments

[Infinity 324]

Yeah 367 is a lot more silly than my argument in cakez imo, still not sure I should've voted cakez in the first place though.

PEdit: ok lol

[Infinity 324]

I've played one game with him

Was he town or scum? And how do his actions in that game compare to this game, and does that contribute to your read?

He was town, and he was more aggressive. But I don't like making meta reads off of one game

[Infinity 324]

First off I'm sorry about my attitude.
I was told about it in my last game and I was trying hard not to repeat it this game but a few attitudes got to me and I started feeling that anger I get towards people that is probably not fair.
Don't know why it hits me some times. I think I take things a bit too personal from people. If I knew a way to get that under control.........
Anyways I will try to tone down and if I need a slap occasional that says farside you need to step back, then please say so.

Ok, I'm glad you're willing to act differently. I'm sorry for insulting your play, I hope we can have more productive discussions in the future.

Infinity: If you explained your reason for defending wraith other then his one post you said looked like he was scum hunting I would like to see that please.

Here's where I was defending wraith:

I liked Infinity for town-lean early but as time goes on I like him less.

No he wasn't @farside

Not sure I like the wraith wagon. The wisdom vote was weird but very sloppy for scum play.

Yes, "town lean" is in the sentence "I like

d

infinity for town-lean". I don't see how that's relevant. And then he pointed out the stuff in his next post, which was 3 posts later I believe. I don't see the issue.

I voted him because...he commented on a bunch of stuff without trying to scumhunt, but his latest post made me feel a little better in that regard.

But I'm not saying he's town and a wagon on him is as good as any (except maybe cakez). So *shrug*

At first i was just trying to correct a misconception. I also said I wasn't sure I liked the wagon, but ok I'll admit that statement wasn't really necessary for a null read.

The next post I continued to try to correct the misconception, and also disclaimed that my intent wasn't to convince you that he's town. I just wanted to make sure you got your facts right. Does that explain that?

[Infinity 324]

For me to drop infinity off my list I need him to explain his views from start of the game about wraith to this point currently and what his scum reads are in full.

Ok, you got it....

At the start of the game I voted wraith because of just fluffposting, I don't consider it a super strong tell but it was my best bet at that point.

Spoiler: fluff

Mr. Scruffy is wondering if there is a reason besides RVS that four players immediately voted Nacho.

Mr. Scruffy feels excluded from this conversation because it seems like people are using meta to scumhunt on farside.

? I'm not

Do you have any other thoughts

Mr. Scruffy re-read the last page and now realizes where you were coming from.

He also says no, not at this time.

I'm late rip

VOTE: wisdom

Mr. Scruffy would like to know if this is an RVS vote or has actual backing.

Then came the next stage of wraith's posting. He started at least trying to look like he's scumhunting and gave me the immediate vibes of "so bad it's town", like he wasn't trying to look good. So I guess that made up for his earlier stuff in my mind.

Spoiler: other shit

It has backing

Mr. Scruffy says "You're right."

This is an awfully strange 180:

infinity you're trying too hard and me no like

says infinity who tried to question a joke

I will also agree with the townreads on Infinity.

I think that him continuing to nitpick things and defend that way of playing despite people clearly finding it odd and worth questioning shows lack of scum motivation.

Vote: Wisdom

Specific stuff I don't like about Infinity so far:

I had a woohoo woowee I'm town post planned, but I rolled scum

that's what you really meant, admit it

Why no vote?

This really rubs me the wrong way. It's a pretty obvious joke literally less than 10 posts into the game but he's jumping on it like it's scummy.

I liked him town-lean early for posts 25, 28, and 39, but so far that's kind of it.

Ha! I thought it had something to do with the numbers.

Tammy - Understanding P5's humor since 2016. Go me!

Infinity - Did you just vote nacho because there was a wagon started on him already?

Yes

This rubs me wrong too.

You're entitled to your opinion. Since I don't think farside's vote was particularly scummy, I'm not going to bother to argue it.

He says this, but previously had like five posts questioning the motives of farside's vote. ???

His vote on me without explaining why is odd but could easily just be looking to get a reaction out of me. I guess it worked a different way because it drew a lot of reactions from other players.

I might shift my vote in a minute. About to re-read Wisdom's ISO to see if I'm remembering things right in my evaluation of him.

cakes' case is very shallow

Agreed.

Are you even reading my posts?

I didn't read your last big post. I did read your case and the lots of quotes reminded me of biker wars.

I liked Infinity for town-lean early but as time goes on I like him less.

No he wasn't @farside

Not sure I like the wraith wagon. The wisdom vote was weird but very sloppy for scum play.

Would like other answers about whether cakez is this shallow as scum vs. town

@cakez What do you think about wisdom's response that he changed playstyle because he felt like it? Do you think that's unlikely?

I don't know who scum is, but that's ok I guess. This game I'll try a more patient approach and not judge anyone until I have a solid read on them.

Town lean is in that sentence. And he didn't explain the issues.
Speaking of which, why did you vote him in the first place?

Yeah I don't like this one. I clearly explained why my read had changed.

Okay let's take a look at shadow's short ISO

Firstly, it's somewhat of a good sign to me that both Wisdom and SirCakez both scumread him. It's a little early in the game though to present doubts on that front for fear of WIFOM.

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

Fluff IMO

I believe I have an early leaning town read on kagami.

You believe you do, or you do? They're not quite the same.

They're pretty much the same.

Infinity

, here's your answer: I tend to be nitpicky about semantics. One of the phrases is more assertive than the other, which often times comes from town. The other leaves a little bit of room for maneuverability, which often times comes from scum. In this case they are pretty much the same, but the phrasing can still be indicative of things.

I don't like semantic arguments. That's just me. Semantic arguments are a scumtell to me. That's probably because I strongly prefer VCA and logical/data-based arguments than attempting to analyze word choice or emotional expression. I think it's absolutely impossible to accurately analyze someone's emotional state over the internet.

...snip...
Kagami is spending all his time trying to sort specifically me, which is odd to me. But he still seems town for now. Gut town lean on Tammy.

VOTE: wraith

Two things. First, if you have a read on a particular person, shouldn't you pursue that and/or pressure them? What's specifically odd about trying to sort out one person, especially without knowing their motivation for doing so? Second - why discuss other people in your post, and then vote Wraith with no other mention of him in your post?

This is an awfully strange 180:

Whats strange about it? The reason im townreading Infinity happened after those initial posts and actually have to do with how Infinity handled those posts.

I dont like this.

Widom beat me to it. There were a number of posts in between, and I can easily see how Infinity's responses could have caused a change in a read. Are you suggesting that people's reads shouldn't change?

@Nacho: Can you explain what you were trying to accomplish with your questioning of shadow?

I'm more interested in why he seemed to be soft defending Tammy and focusing on things not related to this game specifically. Granted I brought up Thor and other people's posts, but that was to illustrate why I was looking into something here.

@MOI: V/LA until Sunday the 13th.

Townreading Inf for his early play, don't see the scum motivation in his play. I think he's immediately scumhunting and trying to get the game going.

VOTE: kraska

Is this an RVS vote? You haven't participated yet, say you like Infinity, and then randomly vote kraska. If it's not, please give some explanation.

I thought and still think this was a good post.

Shadow could be more active (then again the same could be said of me) but at this point I'm not going to commit to wagoning him. He hasn't made any specific slip to make me scumread him yet.

Then came his wall in 439, of which I noticed a very fake-sounding read on nacho that seemed to be an attempt to appease and buddy him. Specifically, the whole idea of "nacho came up with this spot on point against me which looks town to me" which he mentioned a couple times seems very fake. Also, wisdom pointed out something I forgot to mention in 449 that adds to the fakeness of the nacho read. Something else that was going on in my head at the time was the realization that I've seen scum play very sloppily before at least a couple times so sloppy/bad reasoning shouldn't really equal town in my mind.

I do not have a scumread besides wraith at this point.

I hope we're done with this conversation, I'm tired of defending myself. If you still have a lot of issues with this we might have to leave it at that.

[Infinity 324]

My gut says bulbazak might be scum. But maybe that's because he fits the somewhat outdated stereotype of cautious wallposting lots of questions scum.

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, your question to me was already addressed and answered.

I'm ok with shadow votes. His questions don't seem to be written in an attempt to gamesolve, they're more trying to look busy and defending himself. And to add on to the list of hypocritical things I've said this game, I don't really like shadow taking seriously tammy not moving her vote. To be fair, this time tammy clearly said that it was for fun. It just looks like an attempt to look busy.

Ok I've convinced myself

VOTE: shadow

I'm not a fan of voting someone with 3 posts on page 25, though I will check again what those posts are...

[Infinity 324]

And shadow can be lynchbait but this is not the town!shadow I know so that's that

[Infinity 324]

Ok they're 5 posts and I don't have an issue with them. Him making a small comment to defend himself before a big long scumhunting-focused catchup isn't a problem for me, as long as that's what's happening here.

[Infinity 324]

Vote shadow instead

[Infinity 324]

Vote shadow instead

do you dislike the wagon on leon?

It's meh, there's really nothing AI from him so far

I want more pressure on shadow

[Infinity 324]

Unofficial VC

Leon (4) - Nachomamma8, Kagami, Wisdom, SirCakez
shaddowez (2) - Bulbazak, Infinity 324
Wraith (1) - farside22
Wisdom (1) - Wraith
PeregrineV (1) - shaddowez
Nachomamma8 (1) - Tammy
Kagami (1) - kraska77
kraska77 (1) - Leonshade
SirCakez (1) - PeregrineV

[Infinity 324]

On second thought, I actively dislike the leon wagon because it feels like counterwagoning to wraith and/or shadow

[Infinity 324]

What's making me worry is the people who are voting someone with 5 posts over legitimately scummy people

[Infinity 324]

ok lets do this another way

We agree shaddow is scum, right? Who do you think are his buddies?

I don't know and I don't particularly care at the moment. Pre-flip associatives suck. You can point out the softball question shadow asked leon, fine. I don't find it the most compelling thing in the world, but it's a legitimate argument. But it still relies on shadow being scum, and I think it's difficult to make the argument that leon is actually scummier than shadow at this point.

(I could've just said the people who are voting leon but I'll give you a break lol)

[Infinity 324]

Also there's a Leon wagon.

I dunno folks, is there any reason that we shouldn't use Leon to test for the existence of vigs? I see fucking nothing, while shadow has produced more than that - and it's all scum as shit.

FTFY

[Infinity 324]

Also 637 feels fake

[Infinity 324]

How about you explain why bulba is scum. I already explained why I think shadow is scum

[Infinity 324]

Ok but bulba at least on the surface seems to be trying to figure things out and I can see the motivation behind most of his questions.

[Infinity 324]

Like, shadow is doing the same thing you're saying except more.

[Infinity 324]

Bulba seems to be following up on quite a few questions

[Infinity 324]

Infinity, your insistence on voting shaddow is not really warranted by the argument you presented. Do you have something stronger than that?

The fact that no one is really defending him but he only has 2 votes on him

I think it's just best to let it play out though.

[Infinity 324]

Thats even worse than your reason for voting him.

Those two things are a hell of a lot better than your reason for voting leon, that's for sure

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom

There's no way my activity for the past day has completely changed my read on you

Explain

[Infinity 324]

Is greyice usually like this?

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom

There's no way my activity for the past day has completely changed my read on you

Explain

yep
you desperately trying to save my scumread can't possibly make me question your alignment

I'm not "desperately" trying to save anyone, I want to put pressure on 2 scumreads of mine who's wagons got derailed

[Infinity 324]

Hmm

[Infinity 324]

Ok leon might just be scum. Wisdom pretty much nailed it, I don't see why town would care so much and spend so many words defending themselves at the moment when they haven't even caught up yet. And the reads at the end seem thrown on like "look at me I'm doing something".

Would prefer to wait for leon's catchup before switching to him though. Leon/shadow/greyice is looking more likely but feels too easy.

Would still like to hear prior to the big wall why leon was scummy

[Infinity 324]

My argument is solely based on 680

[Infinity 324]

That's what changed, he made that post lol

What I'm curious about is why you didn't respond to grey's reaction to tour presumed reaction test. He didn't seem to consider you were faking a reaction test (or town for that matter). What do you think

[Infinity 324]

Correct.

[Infinity 324]

What I'm curious about is why you didn't respond to grey's reaction to your presumed reaction test. He didn't seem to consider you were faking a reaction test (or town for that matter). What do you think

[Infinity 324]

Actually it's ok if you no comment on that

[Infinity 324]

Correct.

Why? He was as defensive in the previous ones too. What's different now?

He was a little defensive about a small issue, now he's showing a level of concern and a level of words dedicated to defending himself that wasn't there before. The issue isn't defending himself, townies can defend themselves, it's the overreaction to his wagon. Town would probably approach it like "I'm suspicious that 4 people just jumped on a lurker wagon" or "Can you guys explain why you scumread me" not what he did.

[Infinity 324]

It's been happening the whole game if you haven't noticed

[Infinity 324]

He's still leaning scum

[Infinity 324]

The fact that everyone has these same scumreads is good but also a little worrying.

This is an interesting turning point in the game for a couple reasons that I'll talk about later.

[Infinity 324]

Farside may have had the best reads.

What does this mean?

Why not talk about them now?

Because I don't want to give advice to the scumteam

[Infinity 324]

Leon, do you have a response to the accusation in 703

[Infinity 324]

Correct.

Why? He was as defensive in the previous ones too. What's different now?

He was a little defensive about a small issue, now he's showing a level of concern and a level of words dedicated to defending himself that wasn't there before. The issue isn't defending himself, townies can defend themselves, it's the overreaction to his wagon. Town would probably approach it like "I'm suspicious that 4 people just jumped on a lurker wagon" or "Can you guys explain why you scumread me" not what he did.

My reaction was due to a mix of stress and genuine frustration and powerlessness that I was facing a large wagon when I hadn't even read the game yet. But defending my defensiveness is just going to be an endless cycle, focusing on scumhunting now.

I actually like this response

VOTE: greyice

[Infinity 324]

Its those three anyway

Leon/Grey/shaddow

I dont see who else can be scum

Much too soon to decide imo

Almost anyone could be scum

[Infinity 324]

Now here's an interesting question. Why would greyice do this dumb tunnel on wisdom as scum?

@greyice: Why didn't you consider that wisdom could be reaction testing? That was my first thought

[Infinity 324]

Now here's an interesting question. Why would greyice do this dumb tunnel on wisdom as scum?

@greyice: Why didn't you consider that wisdom could be reaction testing? That was my first thought

Reaction testing? How?

Like as a threat to up the pressure

[Infinity 324]

"I will use my day vig on you, yes I will!"
"Can you give a case on Leon?"
"What do I look like here, town?"

Come on, show it off. Day serial killer? Replace night kill with day kill once per game? Stupid bluff? You don't got shit baby. Calling the bluff, fire the fuck away.

No he didn't wisdom

[Infinity 324]

"stupid bluff" = reaction test

Well ok. I guess I thought he would give more weight to that instead of theorizing about the different scum roles that could have day kills. Maybe it's my bias though.

[Infinity 324]

Now here's an interesting question. Why would greyice do this dumb tunnel on wisdom as scum?

Do you see the usefulness in tunneling as scumplay?

Well yeah it gives you an excuse not to scumhunt. But it's pretty bad for image to choose wisdom in particular.

[Infinity 324]

Greyice, who is scum other than wisdom and why?

[Infinity 324]

Now here's an interesting question. Why would greyice do this dumb tunnel on wisdom as scum?

Do you see the usefulness in tunneling as scumplay?

Well yeah it gives you an excuse not to scumhunt. But it's pretty bad for image to choose wisdom in particular.

He's very easy to tunnel- why bad for image?

Because the opinion is very unpopular and he kind of has to just spew bullshit to support it

[Infinity 324]

I'm skeptical of the claim, but I'm fine with waiting on it to leash the vig

[Infinity 324]

Yeah leon's claim is pretty scummy now that I think about it. It's a PR with a vig shot which makes sense for desperate scum, also the lyncher part lets him say "I was bsing here but now I'm telling the truth"

But it's not a big deal to wait until tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

Down with lynching shadow over grey btw

[Infinity 324]

Let's not get paranoid over each other because of which of our common scumreads we want to lynch first (yeah I know, more hypocrisy)

[Infinity 324]

Let's not get paranoid over each other because of which of our common scumreads we want to lynch first (yeah I know, more hypocrisy)

Who were you worried about getting paranoid?

wisdom

[Infinity 324]

to add to that sentiment, we can examine who did what after both greyice and shadow are flipped. But preflip it's kinda dumb

[Infinity 324]

to add to that sentiment, we can examine who did what after both greyice and shadow are flipped. But preflip it's kinda dumb

Talking about associations pre-flip is fine; more potential to put scum in awkward positions, more potential for people to look at big picture instead of trees.

Maybe, but it can also waste a lot of time when your reads are wrong

[Infinity 324]

wisdom tammy and leon are not all telling the truth. wisdom and tammy could be, I guess. We can see if there's a nightkill I guess?

[Infinity 324]

Considering the possibility of just lynching leon now.

[Infinity 324]

Leon is not lyncher since that's too many town killing roles.

But he could be SK I guess in which case we can leash him I guess

PEdit: leon I was the one who suggested lynching you lol

[Infinity 324]

But I still think leon is mafia

[Infinity 324]

Terrible?

MoI at the end of cupcake mafia said that it was a design flaw if the Scumteam could lose in one day phase. Lynch scum, vig scum, Leon give scum, done.

Want me to link you to the quotes where he called it awful game design and criticized Katsuki heavily?

And note that this is still true if leon is SK

[Infinity 324]

Terrible?

MoI at the end of cupcake mafia said that it was a design flaw if the Scumteam could lose in one day phase. Lynch scum, vig scum, Leon give scum, done.

Want me to link you to the quotes where he called it awful game design and criticized Katsuki heavily?

And note that this is still true if leon is SK

Lynch scum, vig scum, Leon shoots scum but is bulletproof so can't be shot back.

Yeah but the scumteam still dies and it's just as shitty for them

PEdit: lyncher on scum acts like town

[Infinity 324]

what if i told you that leon is not the only bulletproof person in the game rn ^_^
restricted b.f. mind you...but still
no way scum are pitted against this much power

This wasn't necessary

[Infinity 324]

Lyncher on scum is essentially town unless anyone here wants to claim town-aligned Xykon.

Xykon was really just misunderstood. He's just a very elaborate prankster.

[Infinity 324]

Leon what happens to you if Xykon gets vigged?

I win and leave the game.

Seriously? I thought you had to lynch him lol

[Infinity 324]

The problem with your plan grey that Leon gets a little too much leeway if there's a scum lynch.

[Infinity 324]

If there's a scum lynch then we go back to the other plan of he shoots shadow or whatever.

What do you say, Infinity? Willing to put your money where your mouth is?

Where is my "mouth" in this scenario?

But I'm not opposed to this plan actually

[Infinity 324]

The important part is elminating town from the lynchpool. If leon hits docced or BP scum then we'll have to lynch him tomorrow

[Infinity 324]

I would like greyice to claim but I'm definitely not convinced he's scum

Whether leon is mafia or 3p, scum are likely in big trouble if greyice is scum. Is he gonna give up so easily? I doubt it.

[Infinity 324]

The Current deadline is November 28 at 9am EST in (expired on 2016-11-28 09:00:00)

[Infinity 324]

I bet you he could if he wanted to. Of course it could be scum giving up but that doesn't seem like grey's style. I think it's more likely he's gambiting than actually scum giving up.

And I quoted that deadline because I was surprised by it. We have time, that doesn't mean we have to use it, but it's there

[Infinity 324]

And if grey is scum here, he didn't tunnel you to generate paranoia. No one can delude themselves into thinking they can make people paranoid by dumbtunneling a near-universal townread. If grey is scum, he did it to avoid scumhunting and hopefully get townreads by going against the flow.

[Infinity 324]

Eh. however you look at the situation, dumbtunneling isn't going to convince anyone

[Infinity 324]

@greyice What conclusions would you draw if there is 1 kill tonight? 2 kills?

[Infinity 324]

Don't say I didn't call shadow wagon being better than leon and greyice/wraith

Now I have no idea who scum is

[Infinity 324]

Also, I have reason to believe someone visited me last night.

[Infinity 324]

Wisdom is a consideration for scum. So are peregrine and nacho. Leon is lyncher or SK.

[Infinity 324]

kraska you're either tunneled or scum

[Infinity 324]

I'll let cakez answer but imo there's a pretty obvious answer

PEdit: you can call him scum but you can be biased. I'm saying you're biased. Not that you're wrong for sure, but probably wrong

[Infinity 324]

the whole point of the vig discussion that far prompted was is a game where scum are vulnerable to three vigshots balanced
3p is not part of the scum team

Oh I see.

Yeah I'll still let cakez answer before giving my input.

[Infinity 324]

Thing is, you don't strike me as a nitpicky kind of player, kraska, and this is a pretty nitpicky argument imo.

Who else do you think is scum?

[Infinity 324]

the whole point of the vig discussion that far prompted was is a game where scum are vulnerable to three vigshots balanced
3p is not part of the scum team

Ok so the fact that wisdom is limited and Tammy has to wait until down thing happens before they can vig makes it possibly acceptable imo

But it's also possible that wisdom is scum

[Infinity 324]

I find it hard to be convinced by the argument about kraska's shadow position given that I had the same one myself at the time.

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: kraska

[Infinity 324]

Town - farside, kraska, PV
Leantown - Tammy, Wisdom, Infinity, Nacho
Leanscum - Cakez, Kagami, Leon
Scum - Bulba, Wraith

(Details to come probably tomorrow, Mondays and meetings suck)

Also the list is a good indicator that 1 scum buddy is in the leaning scum list and I'm pretty certain cakez is town.

@you and kagami, I don't think this is a reliable tell. Scum can easily put both buddies as town/leaning town and do so quite a bit

I'm mainly saying this because I townread cakez and I think I townread kagami

[Infinity 324]

Doesn't seem necessary.

I like the current gamestate, though I'm getting a bit impatient about a few thing.

I want to know what this was if you can talk about it now to see if you were thinking what I was thinking.

[Infinity 324]

Thing is, you don't strike me as a nitpicky kind of player, kraska, and this is a pretty nitpicky argument imo.

you talk like you know me when the only game i seem to (vaguely) remember you being in with me is the game where i picked on rask for something as nugatory as the timing of his posts on ari
so like
no thanks

I've read some of your other games too.

But I don't remember the nitpicky stuff in Marquis's game

[Infinity 324]

Ok first of all, that associative seems a bit obvious for scumbuddies to be doing. Second of all, of course kraska wasn't shot. But I agree that her case on cakez is weak

[Infinity 324]

More like, your case doesn't seem to match the amount of confi

[Infinity 324]

More like, your case doesn't seem to match the amount of confidence you have

EBWOP

[Infinity 324]

I don't think that necessarily points to kraska!town, maybe slightly, but I don't think it points to kraska!scum

[Infinity 324]

Anyway that reminds me to look back for associatives

[Infinity 324]

Infinity can u actually make up ur mind on me? If ure going to call me scum and then boohoo anything people bring up against me, then I don't get what ure doing

I don't want to make up my mind prematurely. By attacking other people's reasons, it helps us figure out whether you're worth voting, I think.

What's your issue with that?

[Infinity 324]

Weird theory moment.
Do you think scum would shot one of there own for town points?

Leon role just seems OP as hell and I'm keeping that as a reason never to town read or follow the dude.

This doesn't make sense because leon is highly suspected as an SK

It's more likely he's just SK

[Infinity 324]

Infinity what makes him a likely SK exactly?

His claimed role seems too strong

He seems to have killed scum

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE: for now. I'll look at kraska, pere, nacho, kagami, and wisdom interactions.

[Infinity 324]

Doesn't seem necessary.

I like the current gamestate, though I'm getting a bit impatient about a few thing.

I want to know what this was if you can talk about it now to see if you were thinking what I was thinking.

In case it gets missed.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity can u actually make up ur mind on me? If ure going to call me scum and then boohoo anything people bring up against me, then I don't get what ure doing

I don't want to make up my mind prematurely. By attacking other people's reasons, it helps us figure out whether you're worth voting, I think.

What's your issue with that?

kraska?

[Infinity 324]

so u do admit ur reads are hollow

Yes saying that your comment about me "echoing" is bullshit definitely = admitting my reads are hollow lol

Weird theory moment.
Do you think scum would shot one of there own for town points?

Leon role just seems OP as hell and I'm keeping that as a reason never to town read or follow the dude.

This is why I have him as scum still. I think he's telling the truth about abilities but lying about wincon.

Actually yeah, he could be a survivor or lyncher on someone else

[Infinity 324]

During pages 8-10 and maybe later on, kraska and kagami are mutual scumreads but do not interact at all I believe. This is very very odd, I think it means one if not both are scum

[Infinity 324]

Infinity 324 (1) - farside22
PeregrineV (1) - shaddowez
Nachomamma8 (3) - Kagami, Wisdom, Tammy
kraska77 (1) - Leonshade
Wisdom (2) - SirCakez, Wraith
SirCakez (1) - PeregrineV
Wraith (1) - Infinity 324

farfar what do u think of kagami
shaddow, kagami, wisdom, tammy hey guys who are u reading as scum
leonshade hey bud explain that weird vote
pere why are u still voting cakeman
inifinity why are you voting wraith?
bulbzak show up pls

This post reads town to me

[Infinity 324]

See, I don't know if scum bothered to CW or not knowing that shadow and grey would probably die anyway

[Infinity 324]

I don't know why people have a town read on cakes, so I'd love it if someone explained it to me. Preferably something better than he's town.

He's scumhunting but not trying to look like he's scumhunting.

[Infinity 324]

I wanna look back and the interaction between me and wis where I was trying to convince him to vote shadow.

VCA is useful up until leon's claim. Afterwards scum knew both shaddow and grey would die.

[Infinity 324]

Doesn't seem necessary.

I like the current gamestate, though I'm getting a bit impatient about a few thing.

I want to know what this was if you can talk about it now to see if you were thinking what I was thinking.

[Infinity 324]

@nacho: Is it true that you almost always townread wisdom when he's town? How much confidence do you have in reading wisdom? Are there specific differences between this and other towngames of wisdom's? (Other than being less aggressive)

[Infinity 324]

People who disagree with you are not scum wisdom, you know that.

He wasnt scummy because he disagreed

I think tammy was saying you shouldn't be paranoid of her just because she disagrees

[Infinity 324]

good. join us on Leon. Or shaddow really. I could lynch either.

>.<
VOTE: leon

Vote shadow instead

The wagon is bigger on leon
If the Shadow wagon gets bigger I'll go there instead, I want them both gone

Vote shadow instead

do you dislike the wagon on leon?

Vote shadow instead

do you dislike the wagon on leon?

It's meh, there's really nothing AI from him so far

I want more pressure on shadow

you find his latest posts not AI?

I found them needlessly defensive

[Infinity 324]

On second thought, I actively dislike the leon wagon because it feels like counterwagoning to wraith and/or shadow

infinity you're making me worry

What's making me worry is the people who are voting someone with 5 posts over legitimately scummy people

:/

This reaction usually comes from frustrated scumbuddies

ok lets do this another way

We agree shaddow is scum, right? Who do you think are his buddies?

@wisdom Why were you so concerned about my voting leon over shadow here if you wanted them both dead?

I'm thinking scum is {nacho/wisdom} and {kagami/kraska} or kagami and kraska. But still need to finish ISOs

Also will see who ended up on leon over shadow before leon's claim

[Infinity 324]

Iirc, I was mostly pleased that pressure was being applied to my scumreads, which is often something I've have a difficult time producing myself, and anticipated producing interesting activity and interactions.

I was also waiting for some further info about the scruffy thing, which GI decided to fulfill with "despite being town, I was afraid of the amistad tell, so I decided to pretend I didn't read wraith's posting despite knowing full well what was going on."

Fair enough.

I have worries that you were coasting after the questioning of me made you look town.

[Infinity 324]

Just noticed it was kraska that initially asked me, not Kagami. What don't you like about me commenting that I'm catching up?

LOL would be hilarious if shadow got his scumbuddies mixed up

[Infinity 324]

i didn't really like her response to my questions but i'm also not sure if she knows any better

The pronoun mixup makes nacho more likely to be town, don't think he'd fake that

[Infinity 324]

@kagami: What's your read on kraska

[Infinity 324]

I don't see what's setting people off about shadow and wraith
Especially shadow he barely put out Any content to read him off of
Leon on the other hand is kind of obvious scum
pedit: that post feels pretty disingenious

@kraska Hadn't shadow posted as much content as leon at this point?