Mini 1438: Gonzo Mafia (Scum Win)

[Remembrance]

Let me go through the reasoning:

HD claims cop
IaI says he got an innocent result on HD town.
IaI says we should not lynch our scum reads or get them to claim so that HD can be protected by the scum team's ignorance of whether there is a doc or not.
-> Changes his mind, asks Rubicon to claim.
-> Does not get angry at Mantis for the mistake.
-> Claims Mantis is trying to get him killed, before he becomes obv. town because of his protown play this day.
-> You don't think IaI would do this because it lowers his chances of mislynches. Given the player's reads at the time of his announcement.

Is this correct?

Problem statement: when I gave my reads, I was fully and completely aware of who he had in his pool of investigation. I could have just as easily changed my secondary scum read, I hadn't announced it yet, and could have moved it into the other pool of investigations. but I didn't care because that's not my primary objective. Further, he has used this very same reasoning to defend himself from suspicion. The job of the scum team is to not get lynched. He has tried to convinced people of this by arguing that it wouldn't make sense for him to do what he has done as scum. But that is what scum's primary objective is. With that said, I'm more worried about the leading, than the "I'd never do this as scum" bit. Town do that a lot too. Sometimes it even makes sense. I'm also worried because his play changed substantially from day 1 to now.

[Remembrance]

That said, he has also tried to protect our lead (1 scum for 1 town is what I consider a lead), and there is only so much diving one scum can do before coming up for air without ruining their chances of winning. He HAS put himself at a disadvantage as scum, but he has also tried to reap the benefits of doing so.

[Remembrance]

*If he's scum

[Remembrance]

^ I don't think you understand what I meant, yes they are things town say, but are they things Buldermar would say? And that's what bugs me.

I see your point. Isoing Bork and Rubicon for the second time.

[Remembrance]

Ugh, Bork was flawless. The only thing he was guilty of was an initial disinterest in who got lynched.

I don't understand why Rubicon would do what he has done, it never made sense. There seems to be an apologetic air to replacing into Bork's slot and ruining the read on it, like he's more concerned about his individual performance and the performance of his predecessor than the disadvantage it brought to the town, further he KNEW what everyone read Bork as. Replacements always have weird reads and weirder reasonings. They're not involved to the same extent and see different things than we do. It can sometimes be an advantage and they can be really accurate, but it can also sometimes be bad. His reasoning never made any sense and it still doesn't. It was neither clean nor efficient.

I can't decide yet. And I don't have the time to re-iso the two leading wagons. Fudge.

[Remembrance]

UNVOTE:

I can't spend too much time right now on this. I will check this place occasionally throughout the day so that we don't end up with a no lynch.

Yes, 'he' is IaI

IAI, forgive me if you have already commented on it, but what do you think of mantis voting kuror when taking into consideration your own pool to lynch from in order of preference being kuror then mantis?

If Kuror ends up being scum, I am pretty sure the last scum will be in his pool of suspects to investigate from N2, which at this point is only Remembrance and Mantis. I still lean towards Remembrance, but Mantis has felt very scummy today.

Since that didn't answer your question, while I could see a Kuror/Mantis team, I feel it is more likely one of them are scum rather than both of them. (Either it is Kuror and Remembrance or Mantis and ?)

i should say that i'm more unsure of IAI & HD pulling a gambit... just since it pretty much reveals their team (so huge risk)
but, scum could easily just pick a town player in thread to clear, and still look legit. especially - if they know or plan to night kill that person soon anyway.

So scum IAI clears town HD AFTER HD claims N3 cop? Then tells all remaining players to not claim so town HD (now a known cop) has a chance to be protected as far as scum know (since you and Rubicon were unknown at that time, and only 1 could be a scum if I were scum too).

No, that is some serious straw grasping there. You want me dead BEFORE HD gets killed at night, because the paragraph above basically moves me strongly towards likely town since it is so pro-town.

Mantis trying to soft push a lynch on Nacho. O.o

The quote I did above and this one:

do you think the nacho lynch is a bad one today, due to the PR claim?

Gives me the vibes of: "Well I would like to lynch him but I am not sure, so anyone care to go first to encourage me?".

Mantis's recent stance towards me (because i don't think anyone will get behind a IAI lynch. I think he's steering... take a look at his last post. If he's scum, he's lining up the lynches very well...) reminded me of this.

unvote Kuror
Vote Mantis

^ This is also with the addition of HD's particular argument for why IaI is town. Which I assume linked to IaI asking for who everyone's scum reads before the day started, and that HD felt he was an easy mislynch due to the number of players who had a scum read on him when the day started. I am arguing somewhat for the opposite, that it may be taking a dive, so as to ascend with him.

[Remembrance]

1. Yes.
2. Yes.

That's why it's impossible for them to be a scum team this game. Because HD would not have pointed out Mantis's mistake if he was. Because if he lives, the gambit instantly fails. HD recognizes it too.

The reason I still want to lynch Rubicon is because this buys the scum team a lot of time and gives them a lot less pressure. Wisdom was the ideal player in that he pressured and questioned everyone. And it was ridiculously helpful, especially after he died. Since we can go back and get a bunch of information on it. But we're running out of time. We now have all the players outed. 6 docs and 6 cops. An stupidly convenient number where we can't determine which side has a fake claim in it.

i'll out the role if the rest of town thinks that fine to do right now.

I don't really see how you outing your role could potentially benefit town, and I can see how it could potentially hurt town... Am I missing something here?

also mollie, if i were scum why would i be playing the way i have? voting remembrance, then removing my vote.. changing mind on him.. reads being all over the place. scum are way more careful, and you know this.

Why would you not do it and then point out how you'd never do it as scum if you're scum? I don't like this self-meta argument at all.

alright, it did occur that scum wouldn't out themselves

night 5 doc

Why???? What the fuck is the point of you outing your role?

The posts right above my accusation looked like someone

who cared, a lot.

a bunch of question marks, and such. This would be okay coming from newbie town, or someone who has demonstrated anxiety, but from you it just looks forced. You've always been asking questions and contributing, but you've never really ever acted like that before now. It's exaggerated. I've seen this sort of stuff from scum (though usually closer to lylo), where they start to overcompensate.

I think we have 7 or so hours.

[Remembrance]

2 IaI <- Mollie, Mantis
2 Mantis <- HD, Kuror0
1 Buldermar <- Rubicon

No one else is voting.

Buldermar (L-4): Rubicon
mantisdreamz (L-3): kuror0, Human Destroyer
I Am Innocent (L-3): mantisdreamz, pirate mollie

SE-Asians, buldermar, I Am Innocent, Remembrance

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.
Deadline is Sunday, May 12th 2013, at 12:00 AM EST.

[Remembrance]

@Mollie, I am hesitating, really badly. T

I keep thinking it over, if lynching any of these 3 players will reveal anything definitive. That can help me catch another one, even if they aren't. I just haven't caught anything, except what Buldermar just did. Mantis, I just don't know, she's pointing out that I'm town and making a case for it, and she's right. But she also has done exactly as you've said Mollie and that bugs the shit out of me. This isn't lylo, I don't know why I care this much, but I do. I want to see a red name today, but I can't with my level of play.. I should just vote and let the pieces fall where they may and then go from there, but I'm just not functioning like that lately, I liked my old scum hunting system better.

[Remembrance]

Yes.

[Remembrance]

Fuck it then.

VOTE: Mantisdreams

I am so fucking sorry if you're town.

If you can, please give your final reads in twilight.

[Remembrance]

The only agenda I have is for you to not make up your own story. Anyone else could have, who actually agreed that Rubicon should die, you didn't. It's a contradiction. No one was going to hammer without a claim, and that just shows you're trying to look town, by saying it that way at all. Do you honestly think if you didn't say anything someone would quick hammer and out themselves as scum? No. They would go by standard procedure.

[Remembrance]

No, it's for IaI.

[Remembrance]

"-> Does not get angry at Mantis for the mistake." How do you know I wasn't angry. I have been angry at a lot of things this game. Another thing that angered me that I didn't feel the need to be brought up was Bulder's claim D3....no reason to say he was a night 2 doc. Keeping quiet adds to the pool of hidden possible docs that could have protected HD N3. Instead the scum could just check Bulder off their list as a doctor who already used his power (assuming he is town)

This is for you though. Thoughts? I didn't notice this.

[Remembrance]

3 hours until deadline I think?

[Remembrance]

Yeah, IaI, go hammer. We're pretty close to not getting a lynch through.

If anyone has reads or new information to share (especially HD), please share it now or during twilight.

[Remembrance]

I think I was wrong. I'm mourning over it right now.

[Remembrance]

^ You're the best. Thank you.

[Remembrance]

Richard Nixon was town? He's like the definition of scum.

[Remembrance]

I know, it's still funny.

[Remembrance]

IaI. You keep wifoming. Let me argue your way for a second. Why would I Nk or lynch those who were either completely certain I was town or had made cases for why I was town if they were scum? Cases which you have completely ignored. But you see, I don't argue this way because I think people are smart enough to go through and make their own conclusions. But you don't, you think everyone here is an idiot, except yourself. This is probably why Nacho thought you're an easy lynch.

Feel free to investigate me. But two things are going to happen tomorrow.

1. I will be dead.
2. Jon will not be dead.
3. You just forecasted who to investigate.
4. You know this but did it anyway. Which is anti-town. You're pretty much tunneling if you're town, since investigating me will reveal nothing I didn't already know.
5. Rubicon lied about replacing out as he was bored of mafia. Because he tried to replace into another game after he left this one. Which means...he's a jerk.

This was the 4th vote. Remembrance and Buldermar already had 2 votes on Rubicon, but never did remove their votes despite both considering the plan at points. I am pretty sure one of them are scum.

<- why would I need to unvote to consider your plan?

To me, it looks like scum Kuror doesn't want me looking too town.

<- Despite all your attempts to look at town as possible. Including but not limited saying you thought someone was going to hammer Rubicon, so you needed to ask him to claim before that happened. When this argument makes no logical sense, except you desperately trying to look town in all scenarios to gain credit to use as ammunition. Guess who else you killed because he kept challenging you? Guess who all of your scum reads are? Those that challenge you.

[Remembrance]

@Remembrance, Mantis flips, HD flips, nothing more to say than those weak opening day 2 posts you made???

Are you for real? Oh. I get now.

[Remembrance]

@ IAI I like your analysis, it coincides with mine. My plan for today ATM is to vote Kuror0 and investigate Remembrance tonight.

VOTE: Kuror0

(Obligatory Amish tell) I disagree with a lot of my predecessor's reads and opinions. I can't explain or defend any of them.

I've read most of the thread, and ALL of the last fifteen pages. I'm doing ISO's and looking things over to see what connections I can come up with.

Any and all questions or accusations welcome

.

Sure, why did you sheep IaI.

[Remembrance]

I don't understand it. It doesn't matter who Jon investigates if he is town because he will die. Investigating me, if he is town won't change anything, in fact announcing to investigate me under the assumption that Jon is town is down right illogical. I don't think he understands his position. The only thing directing the investigation does is implicate me in his death via guilt by association, a logical fallacy. Not that, that actually means anything either. @IaI, why did you even ask I be investigate if you're assuming Jon is town. Are you...? I don't understand.

I'm banking on Jon = Scum because Rubicon lied about his reasons for replacing out. If he lives tomorrow, we'll know the answer to this question regardless.

[Remembrance]

Like let me go further on this reasoning IaI.

Let's start with a proposition where you're town, I'm town and Jon's town, If you tell Jon to investigate me and he is town and you're town they are going to kill Jon or I because he would confirm me as town and erase your suspicion of my slot if you're town.

Scenario 1: I get nked: they would use my death to create more suspicions on his slot leading him to get lynched tomorrow. The reason being is that just because he announces he will investigate me is not a guarantee he will. If he investigates someone else and finds them to be scum, they risk losing since the rest of the town would be motivated to go back through their whole iso to confirm the veracity of this fact. Which is why I don't want to lynch that probable scum slot. He could very well investigate anyone else, so if he is town he will die tonight.

Scenario 2 (More likely if he's town): Jon get's nked. Or, Jon dies and your conf. bias kill me assuming I am scum that nked him and the scum team hammer for the win.

This second all town scenario, is generally, why I am willing to kill you today if I have to, because even if you're not scum you're going to lose this game which I have tried very hard to win. Because you're simply a liability if you're town. I can't trust you to pick right in Lylo. It's painfully obvious you're tunneling and ignoring the huge amount of arguments made to the contrary if you're town. Even this argument you're going to ignore, I've dealt with this too much.

Second set of propositions: I'm town, you're town and he's scum (he's probably scum) then he would either claim a guilty on me so that you would vote and they would hammer for the win using your conf. bias as a spring board. Or they would nk me. There's not really any advantage to confirming me as town when you're reading me as scum if you're town.

Now, why is Jon voting with you, IaI. For one, the last thing he should want is to end this day early given that he is going to die tonight if he is town. This uncharacteristic willingness to lynch Kuror0 right away is not in the town's or his best interests if he wants to contribute to the town he should think about it.

Pedit: I don't think it matters who you want to investigate if you're town Jon. Just investigate who you think is scum. I know I'm not and I also know that there is enough evidence to come to this conclusion in my iso. It's a waste to investigate me for that reason. Personally, I am almost completely sure you are scum because Rubicon lied to my face (metaphorically speaking).

[Remembrance]

^

VOTE: Jon

I just realized IaI was right, it makes absolutely no sense for Rubicon to vote with me instead of Mollie or HD or IaI. He never listened to anyone but me. And I think he hid behind me.

[Remembrance]

He won't have to. I read my role pm. Says town.

[Remembrance]

You can lord it over me if we lose though. Because of how terrible I was this game. *sigh*

[Remembrance]

It's only playstyle related. His bursting confidence and such.

[Remembrance]

I didn't like his vote-and-run on Se-Asians and then he didn't come back for a while, hence "jerk."
I didn't have a read, so instead I gave my initial impression.

[Remembrance]

*3134 is me mixing up now with then, since he selectively quoted that bit, I didn't know that he was referencing before IaI made any significant posts (other than his first one) and didn't check.
3137 is after checking and remembering why I wrote that.

[Remembrance]

that isn't an answer

in what post did wisdom troll you?

give a good answer and I will back off

Nah your vote is good. Keep in me.

This sounds like something scum would say, trying to sound townie. In actuality, town would realize that a vote on themselves is one less vote to pressure mafia, and would be best off trying to prove their towniness. Me no likey, so me:

vote: SE-Asians

(will be unavailable for most of the day due to the Easter holiday)

He voted Asians.

[Remembrance]

Don't know how to answer the time question. I'm just saying what I remember.

[Remembrance]

V/LA till Tuesday

@Buldermar, I'll try to do just that when I get back (In reply to helping town win).

[Remembrance]

I'm back.

UNVOTE:

[Remembrance]

@Jon

If I'm not replaced by the deadline, I'll switch my vote to whichever wagon Remembrance tells me to.

^ He wanted to vote with me instead of other players who have squeaky clean records or have game mechanics/meta defense to back up their innocence. I think he hid behind me since I was the most active at this period.

[Remembrance]

@Jon_16 what makes you think Kuror0 is town? Anything in particular?

[Remembrance]

VOTE: IaI

The business end: If Jon is town, and he dies you'll vote me(This is assuming you are town) and lose. Since you have now declared you will be doing this, I can't let that happen. Change your position if you're town. I've read all of what you have said. Now go back and Iso me and iso the many people who have flipped town that have argued that I am town. Or you can die and we can have a very calm, very well reasoned and non-tunneling mylo, if you're town.

[Remembrance]

If he flips town where will your vote go -_-)

[Remembrance]

@Jon Your argument is primarily based off associative tells. And then you say iso him for the actual scummy things he did. You seem to have gotten this hunting thing backwards. @_@

[Remembrance]

Now that you have a scum read are you still going to sheep Buldermar's vote?

[Remembrance]

^ Do so. I think I know what you mean. But I'd like you to go through it step by step.

[Remembrance]

Thank you. It seems weird to put those associative reads up there for scum you. Since essentially, you'll be alive tomorrow and none of that will matter.

[Remembrance]

So this vote is to 1) change my position and 2) to have a calm, very well reasoned and non- tunneling mylo.

Nothing about me being scummy.

Nice way to protect yourself when I flip town.

PS - the funniest part is how you keep saying I am pushing you when in fact I am more sure and am more pushing kuror.

And how does this protect me, have you ever run into scum who have argued this way with you and voted you for this reason? Would saying all the scummy stuff you did make me more vulnerable? I don't understand your thought process, you believe these players to be very competent and then ignore their reads in favor of your own.

[Remembrance]

Precisely.

[Remembrance]

That was impossible to discern from how you wrote that. I thought you were asking Kuror0.

Associative tells are false. Some specific reasons that come though my head is that Kuror0 coached me in my last newbie game, the whole time, constantly warning me of my over confidence in my reads and such. Also, scum tend to coach inside of the scum chat, so that's definitely a jump. Do you coach in thread when you're scum? Or do you wait and bus when appropriate? If you want you can find Nacho's post where he links to my town game, here Rem town. in that thread you have Kuror0, giving me advice the whole way through, and we're both town. A lot of what Kuror0 is saying in regards to me is referencing that game. And there was a huge argument about town hunting in that game, it was very much a strange game where I was trying out a style that was extremely scummy. And it confused a lot of people. I'd also say that you're using the wrong word, that isn't town reading (he only did that more recently) he was at first fence sitting and then it gradually progressed to town. Similar to his gradual progression from null-Nacho to town Nacho.


Can you explain your Se-Asians scum read? Or did I miss it somewhere?

kuror0 (L-3): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): kuror0, Remembrance
jon_h61 (L-3): pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar, SE-Asians, jon_h61

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

It's by no means bad. I'm thinking about it. In general you're right, usually Kuror0 pushes at least one lynch per game, but he has acted weak before (my first newbie game for example where he didn't really take a stand at the end) I don't mind if you think I'm town or not, the only thing that bothers me about it is that 1. if the scum do something dumb and let you live we end up with with "rem is town" which doesn't help me much. And your contributions now, which won't amount to much if you have me as a scum read and I'm like, "Well, I'm not ."

Kuror0 is something I have been thinking about a lot. I've isoed him three times and each time I looked at what got you confused, a natural progression that landed with him leaning town. I want to ask you something though, in the context of those words he used on Wisdom, do you think them inappropriate? What do you think of Kuror0's response to what Fate said about him?

[Remembrance]

@IaI, answer Buldermar's accusations.
@Kuror0 answer Jon's accusations.

[Remembrance]

Se-asians has not posted in 5 days. *sigh*

Requesting another prod

[Remembrance]

^ Yeah, probably. I'm wondering why Jon went to the effort he did for associative tells with Kuror0. But it's not worth it to make these associative tells if Kuror0 is his scum partner because he would be alive and even if Kuror0 did flip scum, it wouldn't save him. It's not really worth the effort to keep IaI 9his partner) alive either, since the associative tells would then break down when Kuror0 died.

@Kuror0 I would like you to answer who you're going to suspect tomorrow if it turns out IaI is town. You dodged that question pretty much.

[Remembrance]

If it's within those 3 then I'm going to ask myself how it all fits together. And think about what they've done. I'm never going to stop thinking about my reads until I'm either dead or the game is finished.
I don't understand why Jon would go through the effort of going through associative tells as mafia. And I'm trying to figure that out. I'm trying to figure out how Kuror0 and IaI keep picking at each other and how that works if they're a scum team. They've been narrowed down and are pretty much forced to push at each other, but I'm wondering if the scum team is worried or what their game plan is and how they're reacting to all of this. I want to make sure this makes sense.

[Remembrance]

I've read it over. I don't know if this makes sense Se-Asians. Too much town apathy the last few days for me to be 100% confident we have this in the bag, I guess IaI has tried his best to elevate himself for scum him.

[Remembrance]

Glad you could use us to vent your frustrations. Hope you feel better. Still town. You still aren't paying attention to anything but 2 posts out of 400 (Maybe if you looked at the other's you'd see what Mantis, Wisdom, and Nacho saw). You seem so convinced of their competence and yet, you ignore them in favor of vastly inferior arguments (Yours).

I only have one last question for you before I'm okay with whoever wants to hammer you. Do you agree with Nacho and Fate that

1. You are town as shit.
2. An easy mislynch.

[Remembrance]

Because I'm hesitating Se-Asians. Remember that whine thing? That's pretty much it. I want to make sure. Asking this question lets me get a feel for it. I'm asking myself questions that might have wifom logic. Because I'm not perfectly inescapably logical.

But I've seen many town whine and whine and whine...And IaI is certainly whining. I want to win, not have people who get along with me.

[Remembrance]

Also Nacho thought he was both town and an easy mislynch. The difficulty is, is that I already know that Nacho postures. He sometimes says players are "Town as shit" or whatever in order to get a reaction out of the person scum reading that slot to see how they react to it. What I'm thinking about right now is the same thing. Did Nacho mean that seriously? Or was he just trying to see how people who were not reading IaI as town to get a reaction out of them? That's why I wish he was a little more open at the end of the day.

Wisdom also thought he was dumb town. Unlike IaI, I did listen to them.

[Remembrance]

I'm painfully sure that Jon is scum. I don't know if I'm tunneling or not. But I'm keeping it out of my head because he'll die if he's scum. But he DIRECTED the lynch to Kuror. And that's why I don't think Kuror0 is scum.
What's the point of bussing your partner when you're the more obvious of the two?

He has constantly flip-flopped and buddied enough since he got here.

[Remembrance]

Also, what the hell Se-Asians. You called my stuff wifom but then you said you believed Fate. @_@)/ Hahah

[Remembrance]

And also, How I thought it seemed to me was he snuck one scum partner in there, but left 2 town in there to make us think all three were town.

But this is retarded WIFOM logic.

[Remembrance]

VOTE: Jon

You need to stop replacing into scum slots.

[Remembrance]

And yes, this is probably bad play. Don't care. Scummy.

[Remembrance]

I'm not sure. He has been saying he is out of it this entire time, so he has his excuse. I've made mistakes like that all the time as town. I will be rereading the whole thread tomorrow. For now, I can see it just being a miscount. That is to say, him derping it up.

But it could be a scum derp. From what I can understand he is going forward with the proposition that the last scum are within that field of players. He might have simply meant to write: "The hypothesis that the the team is within these three players"

Or something to that effect.

kuror0 (L-2): I Am Innocent, SE-Asians
I Am Innocent (L-3): kuror0
jon_h61 (L-2): Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar, jon_h61

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

Why would he know that?

He knows the number of roles, but not who has them unless he read your claim. For example, he assumed you were a cop. Instead of a doc and that someone must have fake claimed. But where does that assumption come from?
Rubicon made the same assumption strange, I didn't understand it then either.

[Remembrance]

*strange assumption

[Remembrance]

Why did you assume Se-asians was a cop? Jon?

[Remembrance]

From what I remember:

Day 1: Nacho(doc), Rem(Doc), Mollie(cop).
Day 2: Rach(cop), buldermar(doc), Kuror(cop), IaI (cop)
Day 3: Wisdom (doc), HD(cop)
Day 4: Rubi (cop)
Day 5: Se-Asians(?)

Mantis(?)

If SE is claiming a N-5 PR, one of our cops is lying about being a cop.

It also means I won't get an investigation tonight. To keep from getting too big a headache outta this mess, I may just lend my vote to my biggest Town read (Buldemar). Would prefer IAI or koror0.

[Remembrance]

You wrote that bolded part, my bad. I fucked up that quote.

[Remembrance]

List of roles is mine, text below is yours.

[Remembrance]

Um. Are you ignoring me?

[Remembrance]

You're okay with being lynched even though the play isn't optimal for town?

[Remembrance]

This is a pretty awful, awful bluff because it's ignoring your POV.

Which you kept forgetting anyway.

[Remembrance]

Assuming, you're town for a moment They're not going to use much reasoning because of the deadline. :/ we're not going to catch scum jumping on you, we can't pull them to the side of the road and interrogate them that well right now.
Why are you okay with being lynched when it is not optimal for the town to do so. You should be arguing.
Second, why did you assume Se-Asians was a cop. And why did you react the way you did to me accusing you of it?

[Remembrance]

It's a bad bluff because if it's not a bluff it's anti-town.

You know you are town. Why are you okay with putting us in a mylo situation?

[Remembrance]

Yes, but how you die actually affects our chances of winning or losing.

[Remembrance]

There are 5 claimed docs.

Wisdom, me, Buldermar, Mantis, and Se-asians.

kuror0 (L-2): I Am Innocent, SE-Asians
I Am Innocent (L-3): kuror0
jon_h61 (L-2): Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar, jon_h61

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

OK, I'm pretty sure I'm dead tonight, no doc for me if I got it right, so it all depends on today. At least for me.

From what I remember:

Day 1: Nacho(doc), Rem(Doc), Mollie(cop).
Day 2: Rach(cop), buldermar(doc), Kuror(cop), IaI (cop)
Day 3: Wisdom (doc), HD(cop)
Day 4: Rubi (cop)
Day 5: Se-Asians(?)

Mantis(?)

If SE is claiming a N-5 PR, one of our cops is lying about being a cop. It also means I won't get an investigation tonight. To keep from getting too big a headache outta this mess, I may just lend my vote to my biggest Town read (Buldemar). Would prefer IAI or koror0.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK After reading HD's ISO, IAI is my main scum read, and SE Asians a close second. Why did SE get so much defense early?

Full quote so I don't mess this up this time.

[Remembrance]

And that still doesn't make sense. You could have assumed both Mantis and Se-Asians were docs. So I don't know what you're saying here.
In fact if there were or you were assuming there were 3 docs than there would by necessity need to be at least one more doc.

[Remembrance]

STOP BEING WEIRD. YOU'RE CREEPING ME OUT.

[Remembrance]

I'm joking a little*

But you're no longer making sense.

[Remembrance]

asdfghj. He is a doc!

[Remembrance]

Oh. I give you all of my pity points. That's torture. I had to do that recently. it was awful.

Have a good sleep.

Are you town this game btw?

[Remembrance]

where are the scum.

WHERE

[Remembrance]

Who is the scummiest?

It's not Mollie.

[Remembrance]

oh god. 1 day away and a bunch of posts and stuff. Reading...

How did this go?

[Remembrance]

^ Please do so.

I am seriously considering as much as I possibly can, what the right decision is. Based off of his reactions and everything else. I voted Jon because I am now officially lost. I think that has been made clear Kuror0. He is the scummiest to me. It is not optimal play from a set up perspective. And he just responded in a way that I'm not sure of, I tried to get what I could out of him, my vote is serious.

I want to talk with Buldermar. And ask him his opinion. I'll be here tomorrow. It will probably be a mess of a day.

[Remembrance]

Oh and remind me that when I am lost.
I should probably be pressuring people.

[Remembrance]

Yes, but how you die actually affects our chances of winning or losing.

Which is why lynching him instead of forcing scum to spend a nk on him should he be town is absolutely terrible.

Which is why I am wondering why the hell he responded the way he did. Furthermore, your scum slip on IaI was pretty much stolen off of my back. I made that accusation to which IaI did not respond but dodged. You just kept pushing it. To which IaI continued to dodge. I am voting Jon because of IaI's last posts. And because I am doubting myself.

I am not voting Kuror0, because he is not the scummiest. Regardless of how people try to make him look.

[Remembrance]

Ugh, I shouldn't make posts in the morning. His ATE effected me. It shook whatever confidence I had (and my reasons were not exactly as good as Wisdom calling him stupid town, and Nacho calling him an easy mislynch).

Whatever, I'll do the optimal thing then.

VOTE: IaI

But Jon is going to be here tomorrow. I have very little doubt.

[Remembrance]

Can you explain your scum slip on IaI. And how you came to these conclusions independent of my accusations? I want to know because this would not be the first time, scum has grabbed my reasons and ran with it.

[Remembrance]

I want Kuror0's reasoning still. I'll be back.

[Remembrance]

I'm confused again.

IaI talk to me about Buldermar's accusations against you. Can you answer them? Calmly?

[Remembrance]

Willing to switch to Jon if Asians/Remembrance are game, or Kuror if Jon/Bulder are game. Otherwise, adios!

PS - And I <3 you too Mollie...still glad I signed up

as frustrating as most of these players were.

You were the most frustrating. HD got annoying, but he saw sense eventually. You're the only one that hasn't this game. HD introduced himself as the thunder tunneler. But you clearly get that award. Minus the Se-Asians accusation withdrawal (but you'd have to be in a pretty bad place to see the scum in that at this point).

I'm still thinking.

[Remembrance]

But Jon is going to be here tomorrow. I have very little doubt.

Buldemar, you have Remembrance as Town, but I really don't like this statement. I'd take one for the team if it'd eliminate this WIFOM line of reasoning. BUT I still don't think they want to take the chance of me finding a guilty on one of them

This post is just really assuring me.

[Remembrance]

I need to go back to day 2 but I think most players said that they were not a d2 power role. (Originally going off the revised plan) if bulder was the only unclaimed player for night 2, he is nearly confirmed town in my eyes as scum bulder could have killed me and said he protected kuror instead (bulder was in my pool). If there was another unclaimed player, scratch this idea.

Which keeps bringing me back to kuror...

I didn't think about that.

[Remembrance]

So, we won?
It's just Kuror0 and Jon then?
I don't see Mollie scum at all. And I'm town.

[Remembrance]

VOTE: Kuror0

Make that post.

[Remembrance]

That doesn't make sense.

A Kuror0/Jon team would be far fetched. Why would he put in all that effort to lynch his more secure team mate?

Gah.

Distancing?

[Remembrance]

Well, actually he focused on associating me with Kuror0. To the point he didn't even originally make a case on Kuror0, so much as he worked on associative tells WITH Kuror0.
So maybe he just thought that Kuror0 might get lynched (it was between IaI and Kuror0 after all) and if it was, I was his best shot? Hmm.

[Remembrance]

Mollie. Thoughts on my thoughts?

[Remembrance]

I looked at it.

I'm voting the other person.

[Remembrance]

I'd like Kuror0 to give his last thoughts. Will you be around or is this too much of a risk?

And I might be over thinking this. I took a walk in the park and asked myself what the hell I wanted to do and who the scum are.

I don't want to risk the Jon thing. The scum team are just going to kill you Mollie, if they don't kill him. if he ends up somehow being town (but holy shit is that unlikely).

Oh and btw. I don't think scum Mollie would EVER go for Jon. Because she was the obvious kill if we lynched a town Jon.

[Remembrance]

The reason I ask this is because Kuror0 promised to give his thoughts. I don't think he will break his promise.

[Remembrance]

Also, I'd like IaI or Se-asians to be investigated Jon.
if only because this is Kuror's death post.
Good luck with your semester Kuror0.

[Remembrance]

I'm paranoid enough for the both of us, Se. Jon asked for a vote on who to investigate. So, I put a vote in (even though it is stupid).

[Remembrance]

So did your hydra buddies just abandon you Lincolm? I haven't heard from them at all.

[Remembrance]

Well, TNE does have a really important exam. he replaced out of almost all of his games. Don't know why Sora isn't here though. He's posting elsewhere.

[Remembrance]

Lol. You put b next to your name.

[Remembrance]

I am asking if you took my accusation, or if you came up with it yourself.

[Remembrance]

Here we go. (pleasebescumpleasebescumpleasebescumpleasebescumpleasebescumpleasebescum)

[Remembrance]

I know Buldermar. It's funny anyway.

[Remembrance]

Okay. I believe you. I did read it Buldermar. I've read the whole thread.

[Remembrance]

Twice...*sigh*

If Kuror0 and Jon die I might have a stroke.

[Remembrance]

Rather, if neither of them are scum.

[Remembrance]

If you're telling the truth IaI, we've probably won you know.

[Remembrance]

*sigh*

[Remembrance]

I will admit, part of the reason I unvoted IaI, is because I realized I didn't respect him. And so I couldn't take his arguments seriously.

[Remembrance]

And so I couldn't evaluate his play properly. And then he ATED on the carpet.

[Remembrance]

I'm human you know. But if you are telling the truth about being town. The game is in the bag. I'm town this game.

[Remembrance]

Sorry, IaI.

But I'm only sorry if you're town.

kuror0 (L-0): I Am Innocent, SE-Asians, Remembrance, pirate mollie

I Am Innocent (L-1): kuror0, jon_h61, buldermar

Not Voting:

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

Otherwise you're just as manipulative as Mollie said. And hence, I'll have to nom you for manipulative person or whatever. Maybe not. I would have to post this game and be embarrassed about it.

[Remembrance]

Ugh. Buldermar is infecting me.

I need to stop doing this.

[Remembrance]

I'm here.

[Remembrance]

I imagine Kuror0 is ridiculously busy. The number of players who have announced they are taking tests and projects is very high. I went V/LA for the same reason (it's the first time I've ever announced a V/LA). He's still likely scum if you're telling the truth about being town IaI. I really hope you are.

[Remembrance]

Whelp, I was so sure it was Jon that the cognitive Dissonance is hurting me right now. I'll get over it. Bitter because I read the whole thread over during down time and came to the conclusion that Jon was going to be here today, and was scum, I had a case running through my head too. But he is not here. And now, I must rethink everything.

Except Mollie.

That slot is town. she would never go for Jon town as scum because Mollie is the obvious kill if Jon died. Plus the meta thing. Plus she hammered Kuror0 like it wasn't a big deal. there was zero hesitation.
I'm town, been saying that all game and it has not gotten any less true, nor will it.

What do you guys have? Who do you think the last scum is?

Right now, I'm trying to figure out, Se-Asians, IaI, and Buldermar. The scum is in there. To win, we only need to figure out which of them is town today. The problem being, Is that I was pretty convinced yesterday that they were all town. That is literally it. All we need to do today is figure out which one of these slots is town. Scum would be better. Is there a way we can break this open?

Going to read again and see what I can find.

[Remembrance]

Need something definite.

@Buldermar, can you tell me about those town slips you found on Se-Asians. Quote, reasoning, everything?
IaI made a pretty good case for town you.

[Remembrance]

In Kuror0's last wifom post we see him moving Se-Asians down. He choose him in particular, but kept everyone else where they were in his other scum read progression. I don't know what that means at all. Or if it even has a meaning.

[Remembrance]

Urgh. I hate Kuror0's Iso. It's so wifomy.

[Remembrance]

This is ridiculous.

I don't see scum in anyone's iso. Someone talk to me. I already pmed Majiffy to ask if he was trolling. He said he wasn't.

[Remembrance]

kk, Buldermar. I'm going to take a break today.

I'm absolutely sick of reading this thread. So, I need to muster some courage to delve into it again.

[Remembrance]

Oh goodie, this is going to be a frustrating day already, I can feel it ^_^) Well, I knew this was coming at least it isn't happening in mylo where we would have lost.

1. I asked Kuror0 to explain why he was lurking. Lurking might have real life circumstances behind it. Nacho felt he was lurking, I felt Kuror0 should explain why he became more inactive with time.
2. I unvoted Fate because I doubted myself, a constant trend throughout this and every other day. I have voted, and unvoted almost every player, but Mollie.
3 I admitted that I voted you primarily because of: post 3496
4. I would not have a 'fit' about being the target of investigation if I knew Jon was going to die. Town do not want cops to waste the investigation. Also, I explained already that I look at things from both angles. I looked at it from the perspective that you might be town. I felt that even if you were town, you were a liability in a mylo or lylo situation which ties into #3.
5. I did not paint myself in the best light possible, I was using a temporal narrative, I also asked if anyone had any problems with the summary of his actions you had problems, you just used it to accuse me without asking for clarification first. I thought about NK analysis again this is no different from my day 2 play, where I came up with a case on Nacho and Rubicon. To say that Rubicon/Jon wasn't acting scummy and did not lie to us for his reasons for replacing out is ignoring the evidence. Even you said you were okay with voting Jon if we moved back to him. And presumably it's because you agreed with us. Or, else you're guilty of not caring who got lynched as long as it wasn't you.
6. A last thing is your pool of investigations having his partner in it, this is a supposition that has no basis on anything but the idea that Kuror0 would want to protect his partner from being investigated. Nacho, correctly asserted that all of the people in that unit were town, a fact that only I now know. A point here is that he was safe from being investigated, so let's assume for a moment that you had a 1/3? chance of investigating scum. HD, Buldermar, and Se-asians. There were two people off of the list of investigations, Mollie and you. We have to ignore Mollie for a moment here, because we're SOL if she is indeed scum. But that leaves you. A thing opposite and contradicting this assessment is your huge ATE, and constant "Why would I do this as scum" arguments.
7. You're ignoring evidence that contradicts your case. Particularly that I had no need to bus Kuror0. Buldermar was locked and we had only a few hour until deadline. The fact I would choose to bus my partner over my previously (and correct) accusation that you would vote me seems to be sub-optimal scum play. Not to mention this would be my 3rd scum game I've ever played, I wish I was this talented at it. ^_^) But I'm not yet, I have almost no practice. I replaced into one scum game where I was scum for only, I believe 2 days. And the other I got recruited as a cult recruit and the game's players were inactive.

Can you please make a case for why I am town? I want to see it. Use alternative methodologies because I want to see if you're looking for these posts as well.

[Remembrance]

*might've.

[Remembrance]

I already explained the list thing. In post 3033 I knew very well what you were driving at.

[Remembrance]

Anyway, we wouldn't be in this situation right now if I were scum.

Ultimately, if I were scum partners with Kuror0, I would have gotten you lynched. Kept Jon alive. He would have investigated Kuror0. Then they would have a shit fight in mylo which I don't know the results of. Thankfully, I decided to trust your ATE and here we are ^_^)/ Hi there.

Note too, the basic rule of bussing if that you need to guarantee yourself at least two mislynches for every one bus. Do you see that potential here for scum me? I don't. Please reassess you've played Mafia for 2 years. You should know what town looks like by now.

[Remembrance]

You avoided acknowledging his case on me Buldermar. But you considered his plan. Why?

[Remembrance]

Oh you just don't have any time. Never mind. I'm not quite sure how to approach this. Still, I have to decide. Someone here is scum. I guess I'm going to go meta Buldermar, he is the only person I haven't meta'd yet. Mollie, you're familiar with his scum play. Is this it?

IaI's plan is ideal, but it fails in practical application. I'm not going to elaborate.

[Remembrance]

Never mind to the Mollie question. Just focus on rereading. I'm stumped.

[Remembrance]

Actually, never mind to both my never minds. Buldermar decided to focus on a plan in the possibility of a mislynch instead of taking a stance. questioning a player's allocation of time being questionably used is probably a good thing. So I would like to know why you devoted time to IaI's plan rather than on his case, which you specifically asked for.

@IaI, if I'm not scum who is scum and why? I'm not scum, so it's worth you thinking it over. Similar question to anyone else that considers voting me.

[Remembrance]

1. This question is difficult. There's the ideal, the realistic, and the optimal choice given the factors that could go wrong. You try to minimize these factors. Answering this question with what I think is right, increases the chances of it not working. I want the ideal. I don't expect the ideal. I'm not avoiding this question. If You want me to answer it, I will. But it does no good for the town.
2. Beyond anything else, I want them to be accurate. Thinking about what you will do in mylo/lylo is what I want. You don't have to show it to me. But the work should be there. But the problem is, is that a scum just nods his head and is like "Yeah, Okay, I'll think about it" but they're not going to do anything, but prepare a case to mislynch someone, if they prepare that case now, they have more scrutiny to go over, you are using your personal experience here, I've never been to mylo or lylo before as town so I'm not sure what is best. I want to believe that after spending about 3 months of turning this game over (like I have) a player would take it seriously and that I wouldn't have to tell them. But there is also the chance of burn out, which I just experienced.
4. I deny this. A Mafia player is not indistinguishable from the town members. Mafia are distinguishable from town. Therefore there must be a better, cohesive and more implicating and likely case than yours. Writing analysts would agree with me.
5. Okay. Give me time to think about it (I've been doing that). Your last line, actually, Buldermar asked you that. I asked you to create an alternative case in which you looked for things that were more likely to come from town than scum. But I don't think you're going to do that.

[Remembrance]

I refuse to further this line of reasoning to its logical weakness. You're supposed to deceive the scum team. Not announce your plan of attack to them.

I voted Kuror0 before Mollie saved your neck.

[Remembrance]

if I can't detect the town slips, then I need to go to someone else. Further, I was looking for his reactions to asking him to cut himself off from undermining Se-Asians if he were scum.

[Remembrance]

Buldermar has occasionally been vague. Now is the time to look at the evidence and see if it stands up to scrutiny. Asking him that question is normal. Especially with my line of reasoning, that "hey, I'm town and I really think Mollie is town and we have a mislynch, so I guess I just need to find one more town and GG"

[Remembrance]

IaI,

Kuror0, Buldermar, and Jon were all voting you. It takes 4 votes to lynch.

Reassess. I am doing so. You do so as well. I have already demonstrated, I am willing to be convinced by others arguments, (when you argued Buldermar was town, I decided that you were town + your ATE-whine tell) and so came to the conclusion Jon and Kuror0 were the remaining scum. I assumed Jon had prioritized using associative tells on me in case we ended up in a mylo situation with your lynch and that he had decided to use Buldermar as an excuse to vote you as the mislynch reason. But it turns out that wasn't the case, it seemed so perfect too.

Please read Mantis's and Nacho's arguments. Read mine. I am not perfect. I doubt myself (Hence why I unvoted you, hence why I unvoted Fate). I even doubted myself on the Rach lynch. I changed my mind on my argument for your lynch deciding it was better to lynch a probable scum (kuror0) than to ensure I was not end-gamed the next day as town, by someone who had, had some tell tale signs of tunneling(The day chat accusation, the "why aren't you immediately providing content at all times" accusation.)

[Remembrance]

Hell, I could have just walked away and said I needed to get some groceries and Mollie would have been forced to hammer you. Rethink. Please. We have a good chance of winning. Make it better.

[Remembrance]

Well, okay, I'm going a bit overboard. Mollie might have convinced Buldermar. I don't know. I can't predict that kind of thing.

Point stands though.

[Remembrance]

He lost a bet with Nacho.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=28260

There are a couple of individual things that makes me think Se-Asians is town. One of the primary ones being that both Kuror0 and Bacde tried to push for his lynch. Fate changed this and stated Se-asians was a mislynch. There's also the Mantis meta read to consider. There is a lot to go through.

I'll do something more in depth very soon. I need to get back on track, I got knocked right the fuck out with Jon being town.

[Remembrance]

@IaI, post 3467

[Remembrance]

And I'm not blind. It was quite clear Buldermar favored voting you over voting Kuror0. I didn't need to jump back and forth.

Plus I voted Kuror0 before Mollie intervened the second time. The first time, she reinforced that what you were saying was town-centered, so I jumped off to my strongest scum read. But then Buldermar put me back in toward you, after trying to read Jon. Ultimately, I decided on Kuror0. Since you dropped a town tell. It's not as simple as "IaI, Jon, IaI, Jon, Kuror0"

It's "Goddamnit, Rubicon lied to me and hid behind me, vote Jon" "It's not optimal to vote Jon, -B or whoever" "I need to be safe given his signs of tunneling, vote IaI", "Oh shit look at all that town ATE he just did, "Vote Jon, pressure Jon," Oh shit Buldermar told me off, what if I'm wrong about Jon? "Vote IaI," Oh god, I'm not sure, ask him again"
"Okay, I hear you IaI, Buldermar town makes sense, vote Kuror0, Jon must be the other one"

Day end.

[Remembrance]

Half way through my 4th reread. Yes, I do want to kill myself.

Also read up on Buldermar meta. This is a serious breaking away from his scum meta if he is scum this game. It's entirely different in both attitude, posting style, vote usage, level of consideration of player activity, and interactivity. If this game was entirely based off of meta, Buldermar would be town this game. I will continue to be reading his meta, and also considering his play.

[Remembrance]

Kinda wish Buldemar brought his A game though, meta of town games, shows he's usually more focused on the game then he has been here. /:

[Remembrance]

Se-Asians, why do you think Buldermar is scum? Is it just PoE again or something else?

[Remembrance]

Entirety. Exams can't be helped. I went V/LA for the same reason earlier in the last game day.

[Remembrance]

3605: In general, it's my policy that absence does not = guilt. So I was simply stating that given he stated he was busy with finals (which I was also busy with ), his lack of participation at the last second didn't mean he was scum. Just busy. So I was just correcting that type of thinking. I sort of embarrassed myself one time when I said it, so when people say that, I tend to interject out of habit.

3607: This post was nice. The only way to get better at lylo is to get more experience in Lylo. Also, statistically, you're better to be in lylo than outside of lylo for town's chances at winning. just because you're likely town in a situation where one likely town with two other unknowns is a more advantageous position than 3 unknowns. you might vote wrong, but statistically, you have an okay chance to vote right. Sorry for Dithering, just completely confused. But I feel a little less confused now. Mostly thanks to this post (and I went hiking and that refreshing)

#3609: And Wisdom, and HD, and Mantis, and Rubicon, and Borkjerfkin.

[Remembrance]

For Jon? It's difficult to determine. I think we can agree that Jon would have been mislynched if he was left alive and we would have been in lylo(not mylo). He would have either confirmed someone or investigated the Mafia. If he confirmed someone this would probably force the mafia to kill that player and it would have narrowed the mafia's options for a kill along with it. For example, if someone were dead set on lynching that player(or hinted it), but there was another confirmed town the Mafia couldn't kill him/her and they would have to deal with that player or have the confirmed player come along, which isn't statistically good for their chances.

I could go farther out and list the possibilities if you want, but they're less likely and even if I said them, I would not know if that was the correct interpretation or not until the game ended, nor would I pursue them because they're farther out.

[Remembrance]

Iai, have you thought about what I asked you to think about? It doesn't seem like you're commenting on it.

[Remembrance]

Your vote stands but you've been busy and haven't been able to look over the information/arguments.

I asked you to do one thing. You haven't. Why should I do what you ask of me?

[Remembrance]

Also, weren't you the guy talking about motives/suspects being better hidden? Did you change your mind about that? Why?

Remembrance (L-2): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians

Not Voting: I Am Innocent, pirate mollie, buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

And seriously, I've answered all of your questions this whole game and what has it gotten me but ignorance? You've never used a single question I've answered productively.

HD was better about it.

[Remembrance]

Can you point out what makes you think that Mollie? Were there any discrepancies or anything? I also didn't really get the "town don't say this" thing you posted earlier, it didn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate why it made him scummy? Pretty sure I'm guilty of mentioning something similar, but you didn't call me out on it. Not in the same context, but still.

@IaI, you have two options here. You can.

a. Continue to vote me, either you'll be lynched(seems that way, but not for long!) or I'll be lynched and flip town and then you'll get lynched tomorrow or
b. We lynch Buldermar, then Mollie votes me and we lose because you're town or because you're scum (and you win! Yay!). Either way I only get one shot at this.

Which do you prefer? I notice of course that you were rather interested in hearing my thoughts

first.

Was this the reason? Because you didn't think you could beat Buldermar tomorrow?

I gave you rope and you tried to hang me with it. Might as well give you more rope with which to hang me, right?

Se-Asians, you've kind of been avoiding this whole "rem is scum thing" Based on your votes so far it doesn't seem like you think me that likely (I'm glad I'm not), however you have also not really PUSHED, Why haven't you asserted yourself? You asserted yourself when pushing the IaI/HD Gambit, why not here where it counts so much? There is more that makes you town than simply that Mantis said you were based off of your meta, it it because of happened in game in the game. Can you please explain the non-meta reasons for why you thought it was Buldermar? Meta isn't enough at this point. Because if it was, no one would be suspecting me (since I never insist I'm town when I'm scum based on my meta).

@Buldermar, Glad you could join us, congratulations on your Mother's wedding . Well I look forward to your analysis I'd also like to hear why that hydra analysis as to why it was likely a joke makes him town. There is definitely more firm things than a joke fake claim that point to town him. Why not those?
Also, I look forward to your analysis of IaI's reasons for why I'm scum. And also why you decided to reevaluate your read on me, given you bet Mollie that I was town. You never really mentioned why you thought I was town in the first place.

[Remembrance]

Requesting prod of Se-Asians, This game has gone on a rather long time, but an extension to get the new player up to speed would be appreciated.

I am sorry, but I don't think this is reasonable anymore. It was a pleasure playing with you.

[Remembrance]

Why would IaI have to be scum just because he scum reads me? That doesn't make any sense.

[Remembrance]

You've already stated you haven't evaluated his case, so to reevaluate your reads before looking if they have any merit is not well conceived.

I don't believe you've ever pointed out a specific thing I did as townish. As far as I can remember. Just a rather steady insistence I was.

[Remembrance]

You thought that was enough to invite me into a town block?

[Remembrance]

I think the stuff between him and kuror was scum theatre

Can you point out what makes you think that Mollie? Were there any discrepancies or anything? I also didn't really get the "town don't say this" thing you posted earlier, it didn't make sense to me. Can you elaborate why it made him scummy? Pretty sure I'm guilty of mentioning something similar, but you didn't call me out on it. Not in the same context, but still.

[Remembrance]

I was on fate until you all bailed on it

mollie is a claimed PR so that's not today

Why isn't mollie today just because she's a claimed PR? I don't get that logic at all.

Why did you revise your position on this type of thinking later down the line Buldermar?

[Remembrance]

Then he has.
And there is no point continuing this conversation further. Since he can hammer for the win tomorrow.

VOTE: IaI

I don't think IaI is scum. And I think we just lost. His dissatisfaction and anger at his plans being ignored seems no less genuine than it was originally.

However it means nothing if you won't reconsider Mollie. None of it means anything.

3 months to vote someone I don't think is scum so I can get hammered by PoE.

*sigh*

Oh well. I think Buldermar is the last scum personally. He forgets way to much and it sticks to what he imagines himself to be as scum, someone who doesn't say anything that is necessarily scummy, yet somehow votes wrong when he should vote right. Plausible deniability is a scum tell and Buldermar has excelled at it. He has not pressured people, but has taken on a more fatalistic stance, he reneged on a read that he seemed absolutely sure of. And did it using someone he himself thought was scum along with most of the town and for good reason. And then reveals he had no special reason for the read and has given one of the worst reasons for thinking someone is town I've seen in a while. There is so much there, but he never looks in the right places or concentrates on the right things.

His two hunting contributions for scum hunting are things that someone had pointed out or said before. It doesn't feel right.

Part of me wanted to keep Se-Asians here and just ask him to vote Buldermar and then get IaI to vote Buldermar with me. But I couldn't do that because he just wasn't active enough. So this is it.

[Remembrance]

I wasn't asking those questions because I was suspecting you Mollie (Though, I am suspecting you I do evaluate what you say, I suspect everyone and I will never stop reevaluating my reads, but on a confirmed player, that's just how I am I don't think you're very likely but always possible) but to see from your perspective why those words made IaI scum or how they were scum motivated. I personally thought it might have been a trap, like how Jmo16 sometimes points out "scum slips" he recognizes are false scum slips and then sees if anyone agrees with him to catch another scum going for the easy lynch, he caught TAM with it once. I was hoping that was the case, but I suppose not, and no one bit at it anyway. So I was wondering if you were serious about it and whether it was actually scummy.

[Remembrance]

The particular reasons why IaI might be scum include:

1. He reneged on town Buldermar to ascend Se-Asians (who town read him). Without disconnecting the logic used to read Buldermar as town.
2. He announced a plan where he (thought) the players in question were town reading him and therefore had an excuse to keep them off the table today.
3. He never doubted himself and ignored that I did not need to bus Kuror0 in the situation I was in. In general he seems to think that I was forced to do so. But that is so far off course and he knows it, yet never reassessed himself and stated he was busy.
4. Asked to have a list of reads presumably to get Buldermar lynched today (Hoping I would give him such a list with Bulder either in 1st or 2nd) and then vote him with me just as I had hoped to since for all intents and purposes I believe Buldermar to be the scummiest player at this point based on gameplay and forgetfulness rather than meta, one thing that makes the meta read difficult for Buldermar is that he was never pressured and read as town far too early. The games I read he was consistently suspected and

nasty about it.

Since he didn't need to be, he instead focused on politeness which seems natural enough. No point pissing people off as either alignment, but this falls in line with his own assessment of his scum play.
5. His arguments are based primarily without context, rather they rarely assess player choice and alternative courses. But he has given plenty of signs of tunneling such as a god forsaken accusation of "day chat" being the reason for interviewing Se-Asians. He's proven he can miss things and he has done so consistently.
6. Meta points to him being town there's no real denying this. He focuses more on placation as scum than town and if there is one thing he hasn't done here it's placate people (until recently), but he never did it when he was initially about to be lynched.

[Remembrance]

IaI, if you're around, I'd appreciate it if you gave your reasons before Majiffy closes the game for the day.

[Remembrance]

you hammer after asking a question of buldey in which he has had no time to answer

okay if IaI flips you are like confirmed scum

It's not like it matters Mollie, Majiffy has denied the extension based on his post in the replacement queue. If you're so adamant about Buldermar being town, it doesn't really matter if I had hammered now or 15 minutes before dead line. And there is no way to secure a lynch on anyone else today except me (who I know is town) since the replacement wouldn't have had time to properly assess things anyway.

[Remembrance]

I hate you.

[Remembrance]

<3

[Remembrance]

VOTE: Buldermar

I explained my vote in my earlier posts. IaI looked happy and relieved that Kuror0 was lynched. This doesn't fit.

Early this day Buldermar immediately sent IaI after me, by asking for his case, when he had seen the information before, it was simply a prompting to get him back onto me. Buldermar has not spent his time wisely this day cycle if he is town, but for scum he has prioritized the right (inconsequential) things. IaI might be scum, It's not inconceivable. The Se-Asians and Mollie town read comes along with a plan that keeps both of them alive, yet conveniently ignores the third player that spared him. His list request and the prioritizing on me going first might be fear that he can't beat Buldermar and wants to see if he can push for his lynch today and then can lynch the more plausible player tomorrow. But there's also other things that don't point this way. Which I've discussed already. It's also not necessarily scum motivated, just him playing in line with the hand he has been dealt.

I think the subtle pushes that Buldermar made between Kuror0 and himself is a lot more likely to be a scum partner thing, than the huge scum theater thing which requires more effort. Kuror0 didn't have time to put that much effort into the game, so why plan a big fight when he didn't have the time for it? While Buldermar called Kuror0 out on the investigation he never voted him for it, but IaI did.

I refuse to believe it is this simple. If I got lynched today IaI would have NOWHERE to go. After pushing my lynch. This isn't the mindset of scum(though part of me hypothesized that he wanted that list to figure out if he could secure a Buldermar lynch). I've seen quite a few players lose because they pushed a lynch and mislynched and then the scum capitalized on the mislynch as "their fault" to get another town to vote the survivor. That's too mundane for me and it's unlikely the correct answer. It settles for IaI, but surprise I'm town and it won't settle for him tomorrow unless he enjoys losing. As the remaining scum it is his priority to survive and he's not doing it by pushing on me without a proper argument or next scape goat on someone he cut himself off from without a proper back up plan.

Buldermar's case for Se-Asians is strange. I've pointed out things that make Se-Asians most likely town, but Buldermar didn't, Nothing in that quote actually points to a town alignment, the information just points to the possibility that he joked around about his fake claim, yet he satisfied himself with it and then used that to town read him (to the point of excluding him as a possibility) he then goes on to compliment him for a "brilliant" plan that he won't elaborate on. It might not be what Se was thinking(or if Se-Asians even had a plan at all), it is essentially an under the table compliment that is untraceable.

This isn't the product of someone who is actually thinking of what they're doing as town. Simply deciding what they need to do to win as scum. He used the logic that he himself disagreed with earlier in the game to renege on his town read of me. He consistently challenged players that had me as scum or suspected me, yet now I learn he had nothing in particular that made him have that belief. Why? What is the purpose of doing that? Why did he invite me to a town block when he had nothing substantial the whole game that warranted that conviction?

I have no idea why you decided (or maybe you misinterpreted) my IaI vote today, but I was being serious about it, I just rolled with it when you said he was hammered, but it has simply been too long and Majiffy posted in the thread. This isn't going to work. If you refuse to vote Buldermar then I'm sunk and will move my vote Back to IaI, but tomorrow I ask you to at least consider my arguments and the possibility that Buldermar might be scum, it will be my first time in mylo/lylo as town and I want to at least be given a chance to figure it out. Buldermar might not even be the last scum, I recognize that potentiality that Buldermar denies, but I can't let those players that already got killed or mislynched see me get voted and then hammered without any chance whatsoever to lynch scum that game day.

The reason I stalled is no secret, I put all of my eggs in one basket and then the cognitive dissonance tuned me out. It was an unpleasant experience and somewhat of an amateur mistake (I even gave a player advice one time about not doing it). And I know this isn't the first time you've seen it happen Mollie. You've seen players become lost and confused after someone they were convinced was scum turned out not to be and then takes forever to reexamine and think about it. This is pretty hard to fake. I also couldn't pursue Buldermar(Meta allayed suspicions, but in game activity turned me back to them) during his absence and nothing IaI was doing seemed to be ultra-scum from my perspective (the only thing that bothered me was that I thought that list and the fact he wanted me to go first was to get Buldermar lynched today, if I didn't select him as scum). IaI doesn't believe me, but he has never believed me this game.

Sorry for the wall. I have been paying attention and I have been thinking. This is what I think.

[Remembrance]

LOL

Vote: SE-Asians

HD I love you sometimes

I love it when a beautiful plan comes together.

UNVOTE: se asians

no way in hell are we done with this day

bacde probably scum

Why?

if i told you, you wouldn't believe me

Tell me, I'll believe you. One particular post of bacde stood out to me - can you guess which?

LOL

Vote: SE-Asians

HD I love you sometimes

This one.

This bothers me.

Requesting prod of IaI

I'd like to talk to people.

[Remembrance]

Coincides with.

The only agenda I have is for you to not make up your own story. Anyone else could have, who actually agreed that Rubicon should die, you didn't. It's a contradiction. No one was going to hammer without a claim, and that just shows you're trying to look town, by saying it that way at all. Do you honestly think if you didn't say anything someone would quick hammer and out themselves as scum? No. They would go by standard procedure.

Bulder, here is the post with my plan. You and Remembrance had votes on Rubicon. I suggested "we are best off keeping Rubicon and Mantis from claiming today"

At this point, there were two votes on Rubicon, you and Remembrance. If I am being lynched today because I didn't specify "Please remove votes on these players" well then I guess I am getting lynched for what I didn't think needed to be spelled out.

This is not what I'm pointing out. I'm pointing out that you said you were going to look into "who pushed Rubi to claim" when, in fact, you were the one asking Rubi to claim.

You claim that you wanted to avoid Rubi claiming.

I ask for you to prove this claim by means of quoting a post in which you either a) ask people to unvote or b) mentioned that you only asked Rubi to claim because Rubi was on L-1.

You did neither - ergo, you're full of shit.

[Remembrance]

Thoughts on my large string of posts and recent accusations IaI?

[Remembrance]

It's called read sheeping.

[Remembrance]

Uh, I don't think you are scum IaI. I think I've said that plainly.

[Remembrance]

Yeah we will have a lot to talk about. But It's not a newbie game, so I'm not quite sure about how much advice I'll get. I am upset with how I played this game and upset that I got upset at others.

[Remembrance]

I want to know. Why you asked for that list.

[Remembrance]

Pretty sure I already had this discussion with a different player.

[Remembrance]

Yeah I did actually.

That was impossible to discern from how you wrote that. I thought you were asking Kuror0.

Associative tells are false. Some specific reasons that come though my head is that Kuror0 coached me in my last newbie game, the whole time, constantly warning me of my over confidence in my reads and such. Also, scum tend to coach inside of the scum chat, so that's definitely a jump. Do you coach in thread when you're scum? Or do you wait and bus when appropriate? If you want you can find Nacho's post where he links to my town game, here Rem town. in that thread you have Kuror0, giving me advice the whole way through, and we're both town. A lot of what Kuror0 is saying in regards to me is referencing that game. And there was a huge argument about town hunting in that game, it was very much a strange game where I was trying out a style that was extremely scummy. And it confused a lot of people. I'd also say that you're using the wrong word, that isn't town reading (he only did that more recently) he was at first fence sitting and then it gradually progressed to town. Similar to his gradual progression from null-Nacho to town Nacho.


Can you explain your Se-Asians scum read? Or did I miss it somewhere?

kuror0 (L-3): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): kuror0, Remembrance
jon_h61 (L-3): pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar, SE-Asians, jon_h61

With 7 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.
Deadline is on Thursday, May 30th, at 10:00 PM EST.

[Remembrance]

I thought it was because you were worried about Buldermar. I mentioned this speculation in an earlier post.

[Remembrance]

Is there anyway I can convince you to lynch Buldermar today and try to lynch me tomorrow (if there is one)? I don't have confidence you can pull off that particular lynch in mylo/lylo.

I don't know IaI, this is the first time I've encountered scum Kuror0.

[Remembrance]

If I had to choose between lynching my top scum read or lynching my second scum read and then have a good chance of lynching my first scum read. And if I lynched my top scum read first and would be lynched the next day if I were wrong.

I'd pick #1.

[Remembrance]

Rather, #2.

[Remembrance]

Misinterpreted that question.

Because if I gave out my list first, then you could act on it before Buldermar could counteract it.

[Remembrance]

It gives you more time to act.

[Remembrance]

Your notice of Se-asians strange way of replacing out just makes me more confident you're town. /: What scum notices that shit?

[Remembrance]

Kuror0 was giving me advice to be more clear. I don't see Kuror0 directly addressing Se-asians in either of those posts.

[Remembrance]

Was I in a bad spot either?

[Remembrance]

Oh, HD had me as a scum read.

[Remembrance]

You're never actually going to look at the not needing to unvote you thing are you? Just wanting to make sure.

[Remembrance]

Lol

[Remembrance]

He forgot he posted already.

So he kept rewriting it.

[Remembrance]

Hi.

[Remembrance]

If does point to a town alignment when a town-hydra specifically is more likely to do something as a joke than is a scum-hydra. It isn't the only thing regarding him. We were talking about one thing specifically, which I found, and now you're holding it against me that I didn't find other things as well that you never asked for and I never saw an incentive to find.

Using this reasoning to be 100% confident of a town read is ridiculous. And there was no further incentive because you barely mentioned Se-Asians, you barely made cases any cases for people including him.

[Remembrance]

You barely pushed for it.

"It sounds like" is just as easy a push as anything else "Well, actually I misinterpreted it" is the easiest thing to back out of in the world.

furthermore you also accused IaI of "sounding like"

We can't both be scum Buldermar.

[Remembrance]

This isn't the product of someone who is actually thinking of what they're doing as town. Simply deciding what they need to do to win as scum. He used the logic that he himself disagreed with earlier in the game to renege on his town read of me. He consistently challenged players that had me as scum or suspected me, yet now I learn he had nothing in particular that made him have that belief. Why? What is the purpose of doing that? Why did he invite me to a town block when he had nothing substantial the whole game that warranted that conviction?

You are making up something again. This time you're making up that I did not have something substantial because I cannot currently remember one particular post. I'm sure that if I go back, I can figure out why I read you as town and what I was thinking regarding specific posts, but you never made a point of this being so important to you (presumeably because you were hoping for this particular scenario to base a push on).

Actually, you can't remember a variety of posts.

[Remembrance]

"I was not hoping for"

I didn't imagine you would have nothing. Who would expect that?

[Remembrance]

You've been in this game for 3 months.

[Remembrance]

"but it does stand out to me how you were trying to paint me as waffling" The deadline is in 24 hrs and you are the 1) only player not to cast a vote today or 2) make a definitive stance on where you are leaning.

If that's not waffling, I don't know what is.

So you find it better to constantly be changing your opinion and possibly contribute to an accidental hammer? I've never understood MS's obsession with votes, it's quite retarded. Only votes that actually leads to a lynch counts for anything.

Consider my vote on rem for trying to setup a mislynch of me tomorrow based on a multitude of straw men. There is also the possibility that he actually thought he did hammer and was just trying to quickly manipulate mollie prior to Majiffy closing the day with what he had already planned for tomorrow - havn't looked into it.

Remembrance (L-2): I Am Innocent
I Am Innocent (L-2): SE-Asians
buldermar (L-1): Remembrance, pirate mollie

Not Voting: buldermar

With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.
Deadline is on Sunday, June 16th at 8:00 PM EST.

If you haven't even looked at it. Then how can you confirm or deny something or even speculate on it.