Because half the points in my post were questions. Isn't like half of scumhunting asking the right questions? Presenting opnions only gets you so far in a game that's based off of people's interactions so far.In post 75, Zionite wrote:You don't present many opinions of your own in this post. You don't take a position on anything except the OMGUS tell and the MonkeyMan wagon. That's a lot less content than it seems at first.
Okay, I tend to throw the term misrep around a lot. So. Yea.In post 80, Zionite wrote:Not misrepping, just pointing out that it's not a lot of content from you that I can use to get a read. It doesn't make you scum or town, which is the issue. Hopefully pointing it out is all I need to do to fix it.
... I was on V/LA? Also the game has been going for like 2 days. And I posted the first day. So I'm really confused.In post 81, mario and lugi wrote:you know what i think you and monkeyman are working together because you have been really quite this whole time
As much as I'm wont to ask you a question about why your predecessor would do something... self-voting is really odd. An answer to this question would be appreciated by me too.In post 88, Keybladewielder wrote:Why would your predecessor vote for himself? Trying to earn town points by showing he's brave enough to vote himself without a wagon worry? I've got my eyes on you.
I what?In post 96, Keybladewielder wrote:What the hell? It's page 4 and I can't help it if Sora accidentally messed up the VC. L-2 is alarming for any player, town or scum this early in game. Either way Chenoan was still briefly on the wagon, right now everyone from the their person to vote Emilia (that's Monkey) to the most recent person to vote him are still in my scum radar zone. Give me one reason that a page 4 L-2 or even L-3 on ANYONE is good.
Not acknowledging votes and arguments on you doesn't count as ignoring them?In post 103, MonkeyMan576 wrote:I'm not ignoring them, they're just wrong. I haven't done anything scummy, calling someone town that is acting town is pro-town.
(the post is large so I'm posting it in two parts.)Because I didn't read it like that? Like. That seems like the logical assumption to me. Also, why make a veiled accusation towards me? It seems like you're doing what people are accusing me of doing - subtly hinting that I'm scum so that other people will come to that conclusion themselves.In post 105, enomis wrote:Why not Town x Scum? Unless you have information we don't have? Hmmmm...
Never really got direct answers to any of them. Some roundabout explanations for voting enomis, but that wagon seems dead now so the issue seems less important. Denis replaced out so he can't really answer the question pointed at him.In post 141, Chevre wrote:Chenoan's Post 73 stood out to me as fishy for some reason, but Zionite nailed the reason in Post 75: It's a lot of questions and contemplation with few actual stances.
Chenoan, how do you feel about the answers to the questions you posed in 73? Did you glean any useful information?
lolwut. "response to pressure isn't a reliable scumtell but I'm going to base my vote on it anyways" ... what even?In post 141, Chevre wrote:Or, it could be that reactions to pressure is not a reliable scumtell.
(...)
VOTE: Chenoan. (...) I don't really like the way he's responding to pressure
I'm sorry? It's not intentional. I'll try to be nicer.In post 142, Keybladewielder wrote:and second, chenoan is just a jerk all around. ever since I met him, he's been rude to me.
What exactly is the difference between pushing a wagon and asking for pressure in action? Because they seem the same to me. Maybe the motivation might be different, but can you guarantee what his motivation is/was? It still reads as pushing to me.In post 152, Nul wrote:Monkey wasn't pushing a wagon as Chenoan suggested (quoted #73: "Pushing what looks to me like a BS wagon is probably the scummiest thing I've seen so far this game."), he was asking for pressure (quoted #63: "enomis is being very OMGUSy. More votes on him please."). Post #73 by Chenoan shot out a lot of questions but no real answers, seems to me like a scum creating fake content and leading discussion in the wrong way. I don't like how he talks about possibilities without delving into details (quoted: "Random Elyse vs Mario tension is random. Either town v town or maybe forced distancing. I can't decide."), I feel as though he is trying to put ideas into people's head without being the one responsible for them if anything happens to go wrong.
Asking a question IS making a stance. It's just a better way to encourage discussion than making a blatant statement. A question clearly sows that you want a response and want to see a reaction. An accusation doesn't do that as well. Besides, just because one thing stands out doesn't mean I'm going to leap to assuming that a player is scum. That's pointless. Someone can be scummy without being scum.In post 155, Nul wrote:Again, another question is presented without assuming a stance.
You seem to love meta hunting, so why haven't you looked at my meta to see that I ALWAYS respond jumpy, and I ALWAYS get called out on it. I don't know how to stop it. I don't like being accused of things.In post 155, Nul wrote:Chenoan is also pretty jumpy when suspicion is directed towards him, shown in the above and shown when KBW places a vote on him (#91)
I'm referring to all the votes on him and their reasons which he doesn't even acknowledge. It seems like he's afraid of acknowledging it and drawing actual attention to himself. I don't like that.In post 155, Nul wrote:He keeps mentioning that Monkey is not addressing the cases against him, but he doesn't present them to Monkey. Are you talking about #76 because that's the only post it seems that Monkey didn't reply to and I don't really see how he could reply to that.
What I mean is that you are legitimately 100% neutral for me. I feel like nothing you've done has stood out all game. But right now I don't know what questions to ask to get reactions that I would find useful in getting a better read on you. So I have to watch for now I guess.In post 185, Zionite wrote: It seems I'm actually slipping toward the middle of your radar.
Yes, really. It rubs weird to me. But Like I said I don't know why. There's a reason everyone assumed he was voting for you, because it looked like he was! So you being theIn post 187, Nul wrote:Really? Mario voted "null", and for the next 3-4 pages people were suspicious of him because they all thought he was voting me, he didn't even explain to people he was actually voting for no one. You can read people's responses all asking why he is voting me after claiming that "RVS is bad" (#34). Take Blue Yoshi's post as a prime example. #164 mod still has got it wrong. Somehow I am scummy for correcting this??
You have what I call a crumbly case, and a crumbly case is scummy.
Okay but I asked what the difference wasAsking for votes puts pressure on the person and is used for scumhunting. Pushing a "BS wagon", as you called it, sounds to me like pushing for a lynch. The two are different things.
No, I am giving information. And I'm providing reasons form my information. I'm also not fence-sitting, I'm just also not giving a blanket town or scum read to every player right now becauseCorrection. You're not giving information, you're throwing around possibilities and fence-sitting. This is anti-town. If you can't delve into detail then don't say it in the first place, you're just leading discussion in the wrong way if you can't provide evidence for your claims.
What even? Okay, I'm not expert at logical fallacies, but I don't think I'm doing that at all. Please elaborate/be more specific? If it's the someone can be scummy without being scum statement, then uhm. K. It's a statement that's true. People get scum reads on players that are innocent all the time, I've seen it in every game I've played. That's how townies end up accidentally getting lynched. But if that's the only part of that statement you're responding to... I don't even.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_questionIn post 181, Chenoan wrote:Asking a question IS making a stance. It's just a better way to encourage discussion than making a blatant statement. A question clearly sows that you want a response and want to see a reaction. An accusation doesn't do that as well. Besides, just because one thing stands out doesn't mean I'm going to leap to assuming that a player is scum. That's pointless. Someone can be scummy without being scum.
My "essay" was a catch-up post. Monkey made like 2 posts in the time that I missed that I hadn't already reacted/responded to. So yea, that's all there was on him in my "essay" because that's all he'd done for me to respond to.Yet I haven't seen you try to present the arguments to him, it's like you don't want him to defend himself. You haven't even addressed your case against Monkey by pursuing it in your last few giant posts. The only sentence where you've mentioned anything about Monkey is; "Really dislike Monkey's 154. Seems like backtracking to me.". Are you even trying to scumhunt? Monkey is your highest scum read and that's all you've got to say in your giant essay? How about putting some pressure on him by asking more questions?
I'm sorry? Like I don't know what response you're wanting out of that statement, because from my perspective I'm scumhunting to the best of my ability. No, I'm not pushing just one case because I don't want to tunnel and I'm not 100% confident of my read yet (I apparently have a very bad habit of tunneling and it caused me problems in both of my newbies games so I've been trying to get better at not doing that). I'm not pushing for a lynch on Monkey, he's just my strongest scumread right now. But like other players have said it's still early for a lynch.I would like to use Zionite's scumtell that townies should be actively consisting people of their reads or pursuing the cases they've made. You however have done neither of that regarding your case against Monkey.
My gut, which is a bad reason to use to try to explain things I know, but yea. Your interactions with players. You call me out for asking questions but early on all you did was ask questions as well.In post 189, Nul wrote:Besides the fact that I corrected a vote by Mario on me (that everyone in the game including the mod thought it was a vote for me), is there any reason why you find me scummy? Because your reads are terrible at the moment.
Also, Nul. Why didn't you respond to this? Does it weaken your case against me too much so you don't want to bring attention to it?In post 181, Chenoan wrote:You seem to love meta hunting, so why haven't you looked at my meta to see that I ALWAYS respond jumpy, and I ALWAYS get called out on it. I don't know how to stop it. I don't like being accused of things.
I thought it was pretty clear all game that I've though enomis is probably town? And I explained my Mario read. And Hoopla is very much in the center of the scale, which mean's he's a primarily null read.In post 191, MonkeyMan576 wrote:Can I just say that Chenobla's read's are awful? Where does he get that enomis and mario are town and Hoopla is leaning scum?
What I meant was the face that I didn't read it the same way you seem to have read it seems like the logical assumption to me. Not "omg, he read it differently, MUST BE SCUMZ" which is the round about accusation you're making by asking if I have any information that you don't. How do you not see that as a backhanded accusation?In post 194, enomis wrote:Exactly. Why is it a logical assumption to you. Why didn't you read it like that? Why is town v town a choice and not town v scum? Town do not know who is scum and who is town. And esp that early in the game and you seem quite sure of your read? How can you be so sure? And what veiled accusation. If you read it like that, so be it.In post 180, Chenoan wrote:Because I didn't read it like that? Like. That seems like the logical assumption to me. Also, why make a veiled accusation towards me? It seems like you're doing what people are accusing me of doing - subtly hinting that I'm scum so that other people will come to that conclusion themselves.
Since Nul was the only player who noticed the discrepancy it seems really odd to me. And in my post I even said I wasn't sure if it was scummy or not, but because I'm leaning scum on Nul for other reasons and my gut read I'm inclined to think that the reason the error was noticed was scum based.In post 195, Elyse wrote:This is just really terrible. How is correcting a vote on someone weird? At all? More importantly, how does it make someone scummy?
KBW's arguments don't make sense to me, not his words. Also, my read on KBW is like the same as my read on Mario and they're both leaning town, so I don't get the point of those comment?KBW is making sense. He's not posting in another language or jibberish. Why do you refuse to acknowledge him, but have a townread on Mario? Also, you left a nice open door to open onto a KBW wagon.
No, in other words I mean what I said. I like the logic of the argument, but I don't know if I agree with the argument itself.So in other words, you don't like it? This is just a massive waffle.In post 180, Chenoan wrote: I like the logic of BY's argument against Mario in 121, but I dunno if I buy it.
I've literally played half of one game day with KBW, and I still have yet to take time to read his meta. So I don't know how I'm supposed to notice if something is "different"? He doesn't seem different to me from the other game he was in with me, though. So I don't know what you're after.Randomly defending Mario? Really? You have him as a townread too. Why is it random that I defend him? And I didn't "jab" at KBW. Saying he is off is not jabbing at him. Jabbing at him would be like what you did when you said his posts don't make any sense. KWB and Mario are not acting in similar ways. You are just pretending like KBW is some troll that shouldn't be paid any attention too. I haven't pinpointed exactly what is different about KBW, maybe you could find it if you actually read his posts.In post 180, Chenoan wrote: Elyse's 123 is weird to me. Randomly defending Mario and then backwardsly jabbing at KBW? When they're behaving in highly similar ways right now. What's off about KBW that's not about Mario, Elyse? His posting is "different"? Can you be less vague?
Chevre didn't link specific posts to try to build an argument on someone. I'm not saying the hunting was bad, but it's odd to me. I'm not used to that kind of action on things. Also, I glanced at jmo's past games and there are a LOT more than those 3 games. I might go through some of them later to see if the giving town-reads is really a habit or not.Why is it odd to do meta research? You didn't say it was odd when Chevre did it.In post 182, Chenoan wrote:Nul's searching on jmo's meta is odd to me. But it's a good find. Can you explain the disparity between your claim here and your actions in those games, jmo?
People can disagree on reads. Also it's a sliding scale, it's not me saying "Oh man X person is definitely scum because they're 4th on my list there". Most of my reads aren't very strong right now. And none of them are strong enough to actually pursue a lynch on.Terrible, terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE list. MonkeyMan is your biggest scumread, yet you only mention him once? Chevre and Nul, my TOP TWO townreads who actually do meta research and scumhunt, are two of your biggest scumreads? You haven't even provided reasons. Why is jmo scummy? Is the only reason Hoopla scummy because she said someone else is a good vote? How is enomis town? How is BY town if you don't buy his logic?
It stood out as odd to me. And it still kind of does. Nul is firing my scumdar more and more as the game goes on.In post 211, Elyse wrote:It wasn't odd because the discrepancy was about him. It actually makes sense for him to notice it.
I feel like scum would probably be more careful to a degree, but mainly I'm seeing what people meant by him playing like a VI. For how much meta has already been used in this game people sure seem to only be using it very selectively.The point of this comment is that you are saying KBW's arguments don't make sense, but is still town. I don't get that.
An argument can be wrong but the logic can still make sense.That still doesn't make sense. You can't have both. If it's wrong, it's wrong.
I'm not picking up on anything. Clue me in if you figure out what you're basing this random accusation on?I'm not expecting you to find it, but considering you disregard KBW I was just trying to see if you could pick up on something.
It makes it odd to me. "odd" doesn't intrinsically mean OMG THAT'S A SCUM TELL FOR SUREZ! It means it stands out as out of the ordinary to me, and might be scummy. I haven't played any games where players referenced meta as much as they have in this game. That's weird to me.Still haven't explained why it's odd. Just because you aren't used to it does not mean it is odd.
I like posting the sliding scale? It works for me, and helps me remember what's going on in the game more easily when I come back to it.So what's the point of posting them? Only post your strong ones if the others don't have merit.
Nul's selective use of meta is starting to really stand out to me. It's totally cool to go meta search when it will help make someone else look scummy, but not when it might make someone else look towny? That doesn't make sense to me.WHY ARE THEY SCUM?
You're leaning slightly scum, yea. And I'm not saying that getting called town by another player inherently makes someone scum. But. It adds to my suspicion right now.As I've already said, people only have one vote. BY is a good vote. But I'm voting you. Am I scum?
And using Monkey's townread as something against Hoopla is...I can't even.
Okay, but which players have you read meta or or not read meta on?In post 212, Chevre wrote:I guess with the summer starting I just decided I wanted to try mafia again, so I signed up for a game. Of course, games don't start immediately, so as the playerlist filled up I tried to read games with them in it. 1426 took out a big chunk of people, and I tried to read enomis and mario and lugi's games, but they were partially destroyed by the site crash in 2011. So it was mostly fruitless. 1426 was really interesting though.
I clipped the quote to make a point because I wasn't responding to everything you said, just those things. That's why I indicated that I clipped things with the (...)s.I don't really like how you cut stuff from what I really said. In the original post, I follow the first sentence you quoted with "Personally I agree with Keybladewielder and think it depends on the player." For example, I read games with mario and lugi and Keybladewielder, so I believe their responses to pressure are a little less trustworthy. I hadn't read anything by you so I think your response to pressure is fair game. If you want to rationalize why I shouldn't do so, you can (I see that you do this in 181. Fair do). And my foremost reason for voting you was not how you responded to pressure, I said, "This is mostly gut right now." I can understand cutting irrelevant text, but here it looks like your taking out stuff to make your argument better.
See, I read the "i hate random voting" as him implying he was joining the wagon that was on you at the time. That was the logical reason to single you out.In post 218, Nul wrote:First of all, do you guys see the double L? He is voting "NULL" not "NUL". Second, look at his next statement; "I hate random voting". Everyone else in the thread was random voting, there was simply no reason for him to single me out. Additionally given the fact that Mario has language difficulties, it all sums up to be a "null vote". If anyone had trouble following this logic, please explain. @mod, you still have got it wrong in #205.
I'm not talking about MY actions, but THEIR actions. When someone says "Jump on this wagon!" or "More votes here" or anything else like that, what is the difference between it being pushing a wagon and asking for pressure?You can tell the difference in motivation by the way the phrase sounds. You quite clearly used "BS wagon" which as I said, sounds like pushing for a lynch. Pushing for votes sounds to me like asking for pressure.
The information is that the tension seems out of the ordinary to me. So I pointed it out. Because it seemed like relevant, potentially alignment revealing, information."Random Elyse vs Mario tension is random. Either town v town or maybe forced distancing. I can't decide."In post 196, Chenoan wrote:No, I am giving information. And I'm providing reasons form my information. I'm also not fence-sitting
No information, nothing to back up and you're quite clearly fence-sitting. Read #73 by you, there was no real content created.
... Okay. Sure. But I already blatantly said I'm referring to the people whoYou keep mentioning that Monkey isn't addressing the arguments on him, but that's all you say. Can you at least quote what he is not responding to? I don't feel like you are trying to scumhunt.
I know what I posted... I posted it. Just because my Qs did not get the result I want doesn't mean I didn't try.Your questions are useless and lead no where in terms of scumhunting, ISO yourself and read #73.
I'm not trying to misrep you, that's just how it looks from my end. I'm always the easy lynch. I should probably learn to separate my games better.I have trouble understanding some of the logic you spew. "Easy lynch"? There was no solid case on you until now and there were 2 players who were on L-4 that already had cases pitched against them. Chevre's vote on you didn't even scratch the surface of your case, his reasoning was "gut". If you're going to use word play to try to misrepresent my case, I would recommend you being more subtle about it.
If people's play styles change, then why is the jmo thing more reliable? You showed a couple games where jmo gave a town read, but one of them was lover's mafia and the context seems different than a normal "oh this player is town" read. So why are those two posts you linked relevant but other meta arguments not?It's irrelevant. Jmo was claiming he "doesn't typically give out town reads" which could be proven false. You acting jumpy when being voted on in your meta can't be relied on even if I proved it to be false, because people's play styles changes. I suggest you give this a read: http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=MetaIn post 198, Chenoan wrote:Also, Nul. Why didn't you respond to this? Does it weaken your case against me too much so you don't want to bring attention to it?
I was catching up with what had happened in the game that I had missed. And yes, I am defending myself. I like to respond to things that people say to/about me whenever I can. Is that a problem?A "catch up" post should be a followup on your scumreads. I don't see you pursuing your vote on Monkey at all in your recent posts. It seems to me like you are more interested in defending yourself than actual scumhunting.
It doesn't mean I'm SURE. It means that that is how that looks to me. If you read the statement I have more confidence in it being Town v Town than I do in it being distancing. But that's just because that's how I read it. Why are you harping on this? O_o I'm really confused as to why it's so significant to you.In post 220, enomis wrote:You totally avoided my question. My question:"WHY IS TOWN V SCUM EXCLUDED". You saying that its either town v town or scum v scum means that you are sure that they are of the SAME ALIGNMENT.
The overreaction is a really good point. Now I dunno how I feel on it.In post 220, enomis wrote:Why the overreaction of saying you are found scummy in almost every game? The part about you saying blue yoshi is scummy could be read as a simple mistake and actually reflects well on you. So why do you feel the need to say you are found scummy in almost every game.
Did you just softclaim a killing role?In post 343, enomis wrote:Think its something like a 1-shot vig though.
Why are you like.. half-claiming? There's not even an actual wagon on you. Also, if you're actually a PR then why don't you want protection? Am I missing something here...? O_oIn post 348, Diabolik wrote:I"M A TOWN PR.. THis is way i lie low...
My power can be used 2 times... this np will be the last time i can use it... SO i don't mind claiming and i don't ask for protection.. i was trying to get killed on n1 so i didn't give my fos and what over.
People who is voting me is prob mafia.. hunting for indi to get town credit.
But that was just game flavor, wasn't it?In post 0, SoraAdvent wrote:SoraAdvent, Town Governor has been killed Night 0.
Then what's with the random guess at an X-shot vig?In post 371, enomis wrote:No didn't softclaim anything.
Okay, sorry. I need to stop trying to be witty, it never seems to translate well here. What confused me was why the suddent push on jmo in voting. End of the day yesterday your vote was on me, and you seemed content with the MM lynch. All you had on jmo was a FoS, even though you posted that case against him. Then today you're suddenly voting for him with no explanation as to why he was a more compelling vote now than he was the day before. You've given some of that now, but only after being pressured for it and a lot of it is the same stuff you presented yesterday.In post 377, Nul wrote:@Chenoan, read #242. My vote wasn't a random vote, I just wanted to see how he would react but I've already told you guys I have scumreads on Jmo already. Seriously, you are picking up on useless things and I don't like how you are ignoring the cases that were made against you in D1 by pretending to be oblivious.
K 2 things here. 1) I'm sorry if you dislike the way I post my reads? It helps me get my thoughts organized and keep them that way. I've heard from some players its bad, and others that it's fine. Overall it seems pretty neutral. And I have yet to see the mafia use my read list as a hitlist. All the list is is a concise compilation of all the things that other people post scattered about.The way you keep giving out lists of reads is scummy as hell. I don't think it is something a town would do, it just looks like you are trying really hard to pretend like you are contributing content. Your list of reads doesn't help us at all and just serves as a kill list for mafia.
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p4845977
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p4851863
