Newbie 1779 | Spring | Endgame
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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why do you feel the need to return fire immediately on an RVS?
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DogWatch
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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it does feel like a mountain made out of a molehill, but what do you think scum!grey benefits from doing it? discrediting your influence maybe?In post 43, RadiantCowbells wrote:This push on me feels really fake tbh.-
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DogWatch Goon
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thank you, I'm sorta a newbie... I used to play mafia quite a bit, but it's been about a decade. Just started back up a few weeks ago. So i'm in the weird position of being a semi-veteran and a noob all at once. the game is very different now than what I'm used to. If we have specific questions or need advice, do we ask right out in the open?In post 54, mastina wrote:(I mean, I realize this advice is less-than helpful for nearly half the playerlist: mhsmith has been here almost a full year, and is wise beyond said year; he was acclimated to the site in less than three months if I recall correctly, so he could very easily do my job as an IC. RC has been here for literally years and I basically consider his home site to be mafiascum, so he is no newbie. Grey is ALSO an SE this game, and he's been here a while himself. But half the game is still newbies and I wrote those posts for them.)-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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Those are just forum user ranks based on post count, not our roles.In post 79, Ulti wrote:Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?-
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DogWatch Goon
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Why needlessly confuse a new player?In post 83, -Grey- wrote:
Spoilsport.In post 82, DogWatch wrote:
Those are just forum user ranks based on post count, not our roles.In post 79, Ulti wrote:Why is everyone's role displayed below their name? Doesn't that make this game really easy for town to win?-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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I joined this game to take advantage of the coaching help, but so far (and I know it's super early) I'm baffled by the IC's posts. Unless this is her ploy to make us think on our feet, but I don't know if that's how she coaches. Either way I'm not very confident in her ability to help so far.
VOTE: mastina-
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DogWatch Goon
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And by 'vote on me' I mean her scum read of me, sorry for typoIn post 91, DogWatch wrote:oldwino feels genuine to me, and I don't really understand mastina's vote on him any more than her vote on me
maaaaaybe she thinks my brief interaction with wino on page 1 was a case of noob scum distancing but that isn't the case, I was putting a little pressure on him to gauge reactions-
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DogWatch Goon
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I always took "lynchbait" to mean a scapegoat the mafia is trying to push everyone else to lynch, or at least a lesser skilled player that is often known for being in such a position. Is that not necessarily accurate?In post 122, mhsmith0 wrote:
A player who plays in a way that makes everyone (or at least a bunch of people) want to lynch him/her.In post 121, Ulti wrote:What is lynch bait?-
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DogWatch Goon
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I also thought it was odd that mastina acknowledges the RC/Grey battle as the main attraction of the thread so far, yet she chooses to scum read two people on the sidelines of that battle instead. Now, that's not necessarily contradictory; she could be viewing RC vs Grey as town vs town, but how she's gleaming scum reads from the sidelines I don't know. She seems to be working off pure hunch, which again doesn't seem like she's setting a great example.In post 113, mhsmith0 wrote:
Agreed on RC's responses, I'm much less certain on Grey, and you're really gonna have to explain what in particular OW/DW are doing to ping you there. I can maybe see the idea that OW was sitting out the fight as scum (though I don't especially see how you distinguish that from newb town who doesn't know what to do in that kind of situation), but you haven't discussed your DW read at all other than stating that it exists, and nothing in her responses seems to ping me.In post 70, mastina wrote:And in that fight, I like your responses; I don't hate Grey's responses; I do have a distaste for oldwino and DogWatch's responses.
I have generally liked and agreed with smith's posts so far. Townreading him. I see him making fair and pro-town observations.-
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DogWatch Goon
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Shot in the dark here. If you're town you don't want to gift possible firepower to potential scum who haven't contributed yet. You want to gauge their reads and playstyle first.In post 145, mastina wrote:With respect, I prefer to wait until everyone has weighed in with opinions. And even then, to wait until everyone has weighed in to a satisfactory amount, as deemed so by me.
There's multiple reasons for this. Care to guess them?
And for that matter, care to guesswhyI am scumreading you?
As for why you're scumreading me, you think my interactions with oldwino indicate some kind of "busy work" or have a LAMIST flavor. I can't think of anything else that could be the case.
Was this necessary? "I would normally be mean to you, but I'll have pity on you this time" is how this comes across. I don't think this quote has anything to do with your alignment, but it doesn't really make you a pleasant player to be around. Really not trying to make enemies with you here, but I WILL be blunt with you about what I think. Anyway, back to gameplay:In post 146, mastina wrote:Normally, I would respond to this with a heavy dosage of snark.
You're young to the site though, so I don't want to scare you away with that level of obstructionism (even though this is a fair warning, you're gonna need to get used to that), so instead I'll respond sincerely:
Actually, I DID read your answer post (I even visited your blog), but I will admit I had skimmed the first post and missed the part where you actually wanted us to answer them ourselves. That's my own oversight, I apologize. Here are my answers:In post 146, mastina wrote: It would be helpful for you if you are town to reread my IC post, along with my answers.
1. Overall experience: I played on a small site about a decade ago, roughly.
2. How past games played out: Fast paced, focused more on power roles and night decisions/analysis, less endless daytime squabbling, more quirky gimmicks and themes, most games are finished within two weeks. Felt more like text-based video games than constant arguing over minute details.
3. Personal quirks: I see the conspiracy before I see occam's razor. I wrestle with WIFOM too much. I'm rarely the first to spot scum behavior, so often I look like a wagon hopper.
4. How I see mafia: Dunno really, it's a little more psychological here; I'm used to an almost RPG-like feel. Not entirely sure how to answer this at the moment (it's late, I'm tired.)
5. How I approach the game: I'm not typically a strong town leader making big plays and constructing castles of logic. I'm more of a supporting player. Weakness would be sheeping votes at times. It's like I need other's approval before I attack someone and I want to fix this, be more bold, etc.
6. Expecting from this game: Really just wanted a casual game to practice in and be able to ask questions and be honest about my mistakes without necessarily being lynched right away for them.
7. Expecting from the site: I'd like to find games that are more along the lines of what I'm used to.
As for what you're wanting me to notice in your answers, I'll need to go back and scrutinize again; not sure exactly what I missed in relation to what's happened in this game. Will do so in the morning.-
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DogWatch Goon
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Haha, sureIn post 152, oldwino wrote: (may I call you 'Dog,' I like dogs).
Her vote on you quoted your RVS vote post. What I wonder is whether or not THAT was the sole post that made her vote you, or if it was some combination of your other posts after. I can't imagine that your RVS was the only reason, but she claims her scum read of you had nothing to do with your interaction with the Grey vs Radiant thing. My best guess is that she's reading something out of post #21. She thinks you're trying too hard to make the vote look random, thereby disguising any OMGUS'ing. I wouldn't agree with that; I think you're genuine (or a great actor if you're scum).In post 152, oldwino wrote: Keeping my vote on Mastina, of course. And that's not UMGUS. That would be too naive. It's because she's voted me for two very weak, I think contrived, reasons, 1) I voted AA after AA voted me, as a fun RVS vote, maybe OMGUS but so what, and 2) I asked if RC and Grey's back and forth was from a previous game, if they had history, because it seemed odd, out of proportion, to the context of this game when the banter started. Two very simple, null posts on my part. So I think maybe she's trying to lynch bait me (a term I didn't hear in my first game).
lol, is this a character you're playing? Serious question, not a game thing. I'm entertained by the image of an elderly drunk playing mafia.In post 152, oldwino wrote:It's that cocktail, dinner and TV time (and I'm cooking tonight).-
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DogWatch Goon
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I'm usually reprimanded when I FOS or vote based on my hunches. If I don't give an original, groundbreaking, graduate-level thesis on my suspicions, it seems the players on this site immediately view me as sheepy or scummy or whatever else. I'm exaggerating of course, but I have problems attacking based on hunches. When the attack is questioned and I don't have a satisfying answer, it kills my credibility. Yet you seem to be championing the whole concept here and that's interesting.In post 155, mastina wrote:Tangent: "hunch" is, when refined, better than all the analysis in the world. I could go on all day about the theory behind this, but it wouldn't exactly be productive in the game proper. (I'm also considering writing an article about it. I'vesort-ofdone so before, but a more updated version would be useful to have as a reference.) Suffice to say, however--yes, I do work a lot off of hunches.
The game of mafia is a game of socializing. A social game involves psychology. Psychology involves educated guesses: "hunches", as it were. So the game of mafia is essentially, hunches layered on top of hunches. Assumptions on assumptions, guesses on guesses. You'll quickly find there is no objective standard for finding scum; there is no 'tell' that works, there is no strategy which works. It's mostly subjective.
I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, but it's late here and I need to get some sleep. Will try to address the rest soon as I can.-
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DogWatch Goon
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surely you jest
I'm surprised you didn't say "THAT'S A PICTURE OF A CAT. HER NAME IS DOG. LYNCH HER."-
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DogWatch Goon
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Gut (there's that word again) tells me there's little chance Mastina and Ulti are scumbuddies. If Mastina is scum, then she's coaching behind the scenes, and there's no way Ulti would come up with such a terrible vote (on his own scumbuddy no less) if they're conversing outside this thread.
That leaves the possibilities that Mastina is actually town and Ulti is scum, or they're both town and Ulti is barking up the wrong tree.
Gut insists Ulti just doesn't know what he's doing yet (says a lot coming from me) and sheeped a bit on those of us who did vote Mastina.
I still need to sort through the novels Mastina has posted in this thread (busy weekend, haven't been keeping up) but for right now, my vote stays on her. Not joining the Ulti wagon yet.-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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My best guess is that it's something to do with this in relation to the Grey/Radiant spat earlier:In post 215, mastina wrote: I'm telling you to read my opening two posts with a critical eye. While they were typed before I had received an alignment, they are not null. That might seem like an impossibility to you--how can a post typed before I received an alignment possibly be an indicator of my alignment? But that's why I'm asking you to view my posts and really, reallythinkabout them. There's not a contradiction between my statements of it being alignment-indicative and being typed before I got an alignment. Both halves are relevant to the game, containing an answer you're seeking in my posting.
In post 48, mastina wrote: As town, I'll try to defuse heated debates I feel are counterproductive, but if I feel they could be useful, I'll let them continue and weigh in only when I feel it gives something useful. (Often, one leads to another.)
As scum, I'll direct the spotlight so that town are fighting town. I'll still give commentary on it, just like as town, but I won't try to defuse town-town debates, because I need town to lynch town.-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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So far I do think smith simply made an honest mistake when reviewing grey's meta. I don't see it as a misrep, or at least an intentional one.
Grey's weird "reason it's wrong and reason it's right" thing felt off to me. Overall his responses sound more manufactured to me, but I think that's kind of his grandiose style of posting, for lack of a better word.-
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DogWatch
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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Oh, so the Judas role created that situation? I missed that.In post 371, -Grey- wrote:
As a general rule, I don't bus.In post 369, DogWatch wrote:Grey, for those of us having a hard time following this, how does your admission to bussing relate to 332 where you say you don't bus? I know you were trying to make a point but it doesn't look like either smith or myself are getting it.
However, in that game, I was pretty much boxed into bussing because of reads I formulated as town that I was locked into once I became scum.
So while it was technically a bus, it didn't start out as the intention to sacrifice my team when I developed the scumread.
Clear as mud?-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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Is that necessarily scummy?In post 377, -Grey- wrote:No, my beef with you, Smith, is that you make assumptions about my meta with no actual knowledge of it.
As I have amply demonstrated.-
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DogWatch Goon
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That's interesting, because my initial read gave me the opposite impression. I sympathized with smith's side of the argument because he'd made what I interpreted as an honest mistake, and neither of us really grasped what Grey was trying to do with his past game example. It's true smith was mostly countering, but I could see town doing that if they felt they were being antagonized. And because I saw the argument about meta as largely unhelpful to the game, I felt Grey's push to use the argument to vote smith was just that: antagonistic.In post 394, mastina wrote: Basically: Grey was pushing points with the attempt to do something with them and was visibly unsettled at the strong resistance to these points. That's something I typically think of as town since it's hard to fake as scum. mhsmith was bringing up points and not doing much with them aside from using them to counter Grey's points. This is an attitude I tend to associate more with scum.-
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DogWatch Goon
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@oldwino If you think Mastina and ulti are a scumteam, why do you think Mastina has barely mentioned the ulti wagon? She DID ask you what you thought of smith's vote on ulti, but the focus there was more on smith than who he voted for. Do you think she attempted to sway the wagon away from ulti in a case of mama-bearing him? And how does ulti's vote on mastina play into this?-
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DogWatch Goon
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I think the whole concept of an IC is awkward. How am I supposed to confidently learn from someone who might be actively working against me?
This doesn't even feel like a newbie game anyway. Half the players are experienced and only two newbies are trying to contribute, oldwino and myself. Not very fun, not very helpful.-
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DogWatch Goon
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@mastina Are you going to address this?In post 298, DogWatch wrote:And if so, I really don't see you trying to diffuse anything. You largely didn't enter that argument at all, preferring to talk about your reads and other odds and ends. So, unless I'm missing something big (and it's always possible that I am), that points to your scum self.-
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DogWatch Goon
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No, you skipped the part where I read all that and STILL called you scum.In post 471, mastina wrote:
I did.In post 455, DogWatch wrote:@mastina Are you going to address this?-
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DogWatch Goon
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Here are my current reads.
Icy: I believe the BP claim, so I'm 99% on him being town.
Smith: I can't take credit for this observation, but pieg brought up something that caught my eye. Smith's 195 seems like a perspective slip, as if he KNOWS Grey is town and wants to subtly hint that their argument was town vs town all along.
Grey: Hard to sort, but I think he has a slightly better chance at being town than smith, given what I wrote above.
Mastina: Although she has been my biggest scum read so far, I'm trying to make sense of her interactions with smith. She seems to scrutinize him quite a bit, so IF smith is scum, my gut says they aren't scum together.
Radiant: Town due to post 12.
oldwino: I still lean town. He sits on fences a lot, but much like myself, I think that stems more from being a little unsure of his reads and not as confident about his own gameplay as he would like. I'm toying with the idea that he's being a really good actor though.
Others: Null
I'm going to shake this up a bit. VOTE: mhsmith0-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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If I had to put money on it, my gut says it's a smith/wino team. I ISO'd smith and ctrl-F'd "oldwino" and many of their interactions feel like a mama bear/baby relationship to me. Smith never pokes too hard at wino, and on a few occasions early on, he seems to subtly deflect attention from wino, reinforcing the posts where other players make town reads of wino. It's just a general vibe I got, hard to explain. I'm sure smith will come along shortly to call me crazy and unreasonable.In post 730, mastina wrote: mhsmith
DogWatch
oldwino.
I really think scum are in here and we should lynch within here.
So I know I'm going out on a limb here, and I could very well be wrong, but with ~20 hours for us to make a lynch and no real wagon at the moment, I would invite all to lynch either smith or wino. We do need a lynch today.-
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DogWatch Goon
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No time to respond entirely (I play on breaks at work) but I will say that my last post had nothing to do with my name being on mastina's short list. I know it looks like me trying to deflect attention, but I believe I'm widely town read here and I'm not worried about being lynched. We're running out of time so I tried to find a point of agreement with mastina, and when I looked at the rest of her short list, it dawned on me there might be a possible connection between you two. I wouldn't typically try to find scum buddies before at least one flip but a)time's running out, and b)I'm in this newbie game to make new plays and learn from the consequences. So, it's just what I saw.
Wino, would you rather no lynch than pick a side?-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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Slightly more confident in the lemon slot being scum than alisae.
There's also something to be said for the ulti/pieg/lemon slot being replaced AGAIN.-
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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DogWatch Goon
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