Open 888 | Welcome to Feryland! -- End!

[Afrayed Knott]

Morning everyone, That Black wagon...

VOTE: DragonEater70

[Afrayed Knott]

That being said I think I'm passing out pretty early tonight - cats kept waking me up cause I made the foolish mistake of giving them treats before bed and man did I come to regret that.

Looking forward to the last half of us entering the game - please let us know your levels of experience when you arrive! Direct experience with Mafiascum or other Forum Mafias, indirect experience via other deception games etc. all is helpful to know and gives a framework to work with

second game back after a lay off from the game. Last game I think during that earlier period was 2018, and I didn't play as Afrayed Knott then I was Smudger.

[Afrayed Knott]

Catching-up.

Cometbright.
Irrelevant fluff about past games. Generally "trying to be nice" style. Trying to pocket Black.

Lean scum

Black.
Similar to Comet. Popping in, not voting in RVS, then OMGUS-ing me. Not as "trying to be nice" as Comet.

Lean scum

- or bad town.

Python.
Forking shirt, I remember this type of player. Vote-hopping, contradicting themselves (e.g., #31 and #32, sorry, I forgot how to link a post), voting then obv-towning Gimli etc...

Lean town

- Years ago, these players got

lynched

eliminated early and usually flipped town.

Dragon.
What the actual fork was that #25? Voting Black and pointing out that it was E-2? Besides that, nothing special.

Null

- if Black flips scum, Dragon can be scum, too, but it's too early to speculate.

Timmer.
A newer player with a lot of questions. If he had a scumbuddy, he'd have been given answers in their chat. Therefore,

Town

Kittiesecret.
Another newer player, she could go either way.

Null

Gimli.

ARE YOU MASONS

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

Why are you interested in whether there are Masons in the game?
Also, leaning town on Black because of her interaction with Comet, but no reaction on Comet. Asking Dragon to talk about Python then withdrawing it. Somehow, everything from him looks scummy.

Scum

AfraydKnott.
Why were you reacted so to the Black wagon? Why weren't you reacting on anything else?

Lean Scum

Because it stuck out. Seemed strange.

I don’t care if you lean scum on me. I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away.

Oh and what’s scummy about not liking a vote? Please explain? In full so I can understand your reasoning, if there is any.

How did you get so many reads so early on?

For me it’s far too early to actually get a read on anyone.

FYI everyone - My TZ is GMT plus 4, so I’m playing when the majority of you are asleep, or about to wake up. As far as I can tell anyway..

[Afrayed Knott]

Morning everyone, That Black wagon...

VOTE: DragonEater70

What about it?

Seemed opportunistic to me. When I read it

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TimmerRC

I’m not defensive at all. But I don’t like you right now.

[Afrayed Knott]

Everyone does. That’s why I got lim’d early my first game back. I don’t mess around I am direct blunt and to the point. And can often be read as scummy. But that is because I’m ex Mil and have a different outlook on life. So just believe In m town and I love treading on egg shells.

[Afrayed Knott]

EBWOP “I am”

[Afrayed Knott]

You mean you don’t care? Why include the rest of us in that ‘we’? Of course it all depends on which ‘we’ you are referring to…. Is that a reasonable assumption?

[Afrayed Knott]

That’s in response to Python at 99

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

[Afrayed Knott]

I stand corrected

[Afrayed Knott]

I just clocked who VIP is... duh. I've been reading posts trying to figure out what the hell VIP stands for. I love pigeons... generally lightly roasted over a camp fire....

[Afrayed Knott]

I didn't want to townlock DE but life is short

That's not fair, you know I have a weakness for people townlocking me. Now I

have

to townlock you back. How dare you!

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

fwiw I decided to pocket Comet when I signed up to the game. This feels like a good thought progression though

How horrible that town-locking will be if one of them is scum... (Even more horrible if both!)

I don’t care if you lean scum on me. I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away.
Oh and what’s scummy about not liking a vote? Please explain? In full so I can understand your reasoning, if there is any.

Why was that Black wagon strange? Who was opportunistic there?
Why should I lean away if you appear to be scummy?
But, most importantly... "Which you'd be surprise to hear that I am"... so you actually KNOW that I'm town???

How did you get so many reads so early on?
For me it’s far too early to actually get a read on anyone.

There were reasons for my reads. When there isn't a lot to catch-up, I try to read everything and draw some conclusions. I'm not saying that I'm right, most players seem to think that I'm mostly wrong now, but even early reads generate reactions. Which tell me much more about the players than fluffing around.

I didn't really get that vibe. I don't think anyone is ever in danger of getting faded in RVS

I saw games when those RVS wagons helped the scum rolefish... (Even on Page1!!!)

Ok, my coffee hasn't kicked in yet and it took way too long to figure out that VIP is Aneninen.

That VIP is new for me. I used to be things like "Anenninin", even "Adenine" (by RadiantCowbells), or, obviously "That pigeon guy".
I don't know the site meta either.
However, the most important question: why aren't you voting?

We're not getting any of that neutral "this is scum" energy from anyone posting here

Agree with this, no one in this group is in my limpool for today.

ARE YOU MASONS

No but on a completely different topic does anyone want to attend my bricklaying seminar?

How's it possible that you have no Em-pool? (Lim-pool? What's it call nowadays?) With this, you told the same thing as someone else'd told, but... literally 2 pages before!
Also, what sort of answer was that for that mason question?

Oof a lot of early morning players in here. Y'all have been busy reading bees this morning.
(makes note to set aside time in the morning routine for reading)

overall lots of good points, mental notes are being made... withholding judgement until I have a better feel for the game.

*always watching*

A perfect example for posting something without posting anything.

I dunno we will have to wait and see seems everyone is leaning town on Gimli, but is that what he wants us to think?
[...]
UNVOTE: Gimli
VOTE: Python

Now, that's an opportunistic vote.
Besides, why do you care what Gimli wants from us to think?

You might want to reread me. Where do I say you are town? I say I am. I have no clue what you are. Other than weak voting

Why do I need to have a vote? I thought it was my prerogative to use my vote when and where I feel best to place it.

My first vote was reactionary and to be frank part of my RVS as all of you had had mostly a real day length to get going on this. My second vote as I felt Tmmer was being rather incorrect on their read. I then removed my vote when the wagon stared to role.

I don’t accept your explaination on your read list. It’s rather weak. Especially when if you really dont have an idea why post it. Why not wait until you have a better read on the game. For one right now everyone is reading me as scummy wrong, of course notwithstanding my own submission on my play style. But heck if it gives you something to beat your chest about go for it.

Possibly try not br be so selective in the reads of those you vote for. You might have noticed my post about being scummy regardless of my alignment.

[Afrayed Knott]

This.
"I play scummy all the time even when town. Which you’d be surprise to hear that I am. So lean away."
It may be only me, but it sounds as if you knew my alignment.

Thats based on your obvious lean to me being scum, nothing to do with what I know about you. this is straw clutching 101

[Afrayed Knott]

Wait-oh. You voted Timmer because of being incorrect? You consider my reads incorrect, aren't you? And you're not voting either for me or for Timmer? Actually, you're not voting at all. Besides, if thinking that having incorrect reads were scummy, about 3 players would be voting for me right now.
What you're saying doesn't add up.

wow, keep digging, No, Timmer placed a vote on me, again nothing to do with you. Again read before you jump in with both feet. And why do I NEED to have a vote in place. Any chance you want to answer that question as I have asked you before.

[Afrayed Knott]

I do have idea why I'm posting it. For example, reactions to a list can be indicative

then say why, because you don't. yes reactions to a list could be indicative, either way. they are not just one sided.

[Afrayed Knott]

How exactly should I have noticed that?

by reading, you obviously are skimming and not really reading.

BTW we have played together before in my last incarnation on this site

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott:
I know I already OMGUSed, but do you care to explain the vote on me? I thought it was RVS earlier but now it looks more like a serious vote so I'd like to have it explained.
(I know I'm kinda late because you switched to TImmer, but I haven't read the last 2 pages yet so you'll have to excuse my slowness)

I did during my rant with the Bird

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott seems like the type of player that doesn't handle pressure well and just ends up in a feedback loop of looking scummier and scummier regardless of their actual alignment

oh I love pressure.. I also like playing this way....

[Afrayed Knott]

Have you got experience with Knott? Or is it a kind of Miss Marple tell?

you have, when I was Smudger

[Afrayed Knott]

Why did you unvote here?

I have explained this. My vote on TimmerRC was mostly reactionary to the comment on me

[Afrayed Knott]

Afrayed's self-aware chatter being a minor exception

Afrayed and Gimli seemed oddly defensive in tone in replying to people's thoughts against them

both Afrayed and Gimli seemed oddly defensive in tone in replying to people's thoughts against them considering it is all fluffy early game stuff.

Afrayed in 117 he is just very absorbed about how he is being perceived in this game and working hard to define himself for us/to suggest that we see him as he wants us to see him, which I don't love

You seem very absorbed in this campaign, and its pretty repetitive. Of course the worst thing I could possibly do is defend Gimli, but I'm not, as I have no idea about him, other than in the last game I played with him, which is ongoing so I can't really go there at the moment. Then of course if I say anything to refute your comments you could turn that around and say, "see defensive". But its strange that only after 4 posts you feel I am being defensive. Maybe ask yourself why that might be, maybe it might be based on what I have said previously. Anyway, don't want to hang around trying to divert this attention away from me and towards others, as I can see what it is doing now. I am just playing into scums hands. and it doesn't help town at all. So that's where I am now.

For what it is worth I'm not comfortable with Kittie right now, or you to be honest, and Comet.

And VIP I think is town. even with my attacks on him. also in my town drawer are Black and Dragon. The rest I am still trying to decide. Yeah Yeah Yeah I know "its indicative" for scum to not have a great read list... but hey I'm not

[Afrayed Knott]

But reading Python is a little strange for me, like who is actually talking and how does this "we" work. Am I right is now understanding that there is more than one person on the other end of that keyboard?

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: usesPython

I keep reading filler imo

[Afrayed Knott]

I've read all the other things you wrote, but right now, this is the most important.

I cant link to it as the account is closed. at least I cant access it.

[Afrayed Knott]

having carried out a search - we have played in quiet a few games together

Open 627 and Open 724
Project ELO
The Road to Rome

viewtopic.php?t=65188&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65370&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65184&hilit=smudger+Aneninen&start=25 This is the scum day chat - you are scum and NK me

[Afrayed Knott]

Back, will read later. Have a busy day at work

[Afrayed Knott]

Right, just finished reading, and its a lot to take in. I will get to individual posts where I have a comment shortly.


In my post 190 I stated to Timmer that

I'm not comfortable with Kittie right now, or you to be honest, and Comet

I also stated

And VIP I think is town. even with my attacks on him. also in my town drawer are Black and Dragon

Based on what I am reading now my thoughts haven’t changed much, with one exception. I like DE’s post at 251, 257 and 356. I continued to feel a town vibe on VIP until I read 210. He states in that post, no actually drips with self gratification

Nightkilling everyone else who was scumread by the townies and whined about it until I won (as scum),when I so blatantly overdid the "look how town I am"

Made me rethink tbf, my thought was, ok do we trust him?

I read the whole fake hammer section of the weekend posts and how the attention turn to Gimli after his reaction. My thought immediately on reading his post was that was false and maybe a little too over reactive.

So for me the initial feel towards Timmer, Kittie and Comet remains in place, and I am not fully convinced by my town read on VIP. The feeling towards Timmer and Kittie is more to do with their scant content, but Commet is not floating my boat. I just don’t get a good vibe from the posts.

Gimli was really null until that reaction to the faked Hammer but not sure on that at all.
I still like Black and Dragon as Town, and now that I have read back I feel Python is adding more to the game.

I know Python you asked me here

VOTE: usesPython
I keep reading filler imo

I just double-checked our posts, I disagree. Can you go more into this?

And my initial response would have been “ I will read through what's gone on over the weekend and if it needs me to, I will get back to you on this. I will also reread your ISO to see why I thought that.” But I have done that and yeah, I was not correct.

UNVOTE:

[Afrayed Knott]

having carried out a search - we have played in quiet a few games together

Open 627 and Open 724
Project ELO
The Road to Rome

viewtopic.php?t=65188&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65370&hilit=smudger+Aneninen
viewtopic.php?t=65184&hilit=smudger+Aneninen&start=25 This is the scum day chat - you are scum and NK me

Checked.
In Mexican Standoff, your posting style was entirely different. But you replaced out.
In the Newbie, it was somewhat similar to this game, but you were more interrogative and less defensive. However, in that game I was scum so it may be only in my mind.
Most importantly, your gameplay may have changed a lot since then.

That doesn't convince me that you're town, but okay, let's assume for a short while that I'm wrong about you.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: KittieSecret
See my reasons in 193

Ok, but this is only my second game back, and like you after a 5 year break or so, So I can’t see my style changing that much, Still trying to find a rhythm.

So do you find that your style has changed after your break?

[Afrayed Knott]

"Ugh, I drew scum. What to do now? Maybe I could have a nice style and try hard to look town and I could get away with that."

that about describes 90% of those unfortunates who pull the scum card.

Do you mainly play in the morning? Because I would assume that if you play in the evening I (UTC+2) and Comet (UTC+1 IIRC) would also be awake, at least

Yes, if work is slow

[Afrayed Knott]

Who is the scum into whose hands are you playing? I didn't fully understand this

Whoever scum are. My point is, I'm too busy yelling at people and defending myself, which makes me scummy in peoples mind, or that is how I see it. So at this moment in time I thought, stop being a prick as scum will just coast on you and your lim'd D1. that was my thought.

[Afrayed Knott]

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

Python, Black, Dragon, Gimli makes 4.

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

[Afrayed Knott]

Limpool-wise... right now I've got Timmer, Kittie and Knott. I can potentially be okay with a VIP vote? My hesitation is because his playstyle seems to be based on 2014 days and rather than it being scummy it might just be... how forum mafia was played back then.

Python, Black, Dragon, Gimli makes 4.

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

[Afrayed Knott]

Sorry double post... Meh

[Afrayed Knott]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet. Where to place my vote becomes an issue for me and it seemed to be an issue for VIP for sometime also. I'm still in two minds on this. he does talk a good talk, like a few others here. in fact Comet Dragon and VIP seem to very good at long posts extolling how the game should be played or how scum or town does this or that. I have read them and find some of the posts very interesting. In Dragons posts I noted the following comment to myself "lots of content and some questions but I don't see them pushing anyone or being helpful". And then I still get a good vibe. VIP has been doing the same thing but he has changed in his content as the game has progressed, he seems to be under pressure, why? Not sure. But then is he trying to swing us in his towniness or is it all a bluff and part of his self proclaimed brilliance at faking town when scum. So based on that:

VOTE: VIP

[Afrayed Knott]

*"Am I representing you right if I interpret your..."
Sorry, I was paying attention to something else meanwhile

To answer you yes. To point one above, but I didn’t complete my thought process. I should have gone on to say that there is no one pushing those three atm and so I will wait to see where that goes. Therefore I remain focused on you.

Now in point 2 you say I am miss- quoting you. Well no. I read all you had to say and take up the other points you have included as examples of your play. But it was that one line that stuck.

[Afrayed Knott]

What did I do to fall off your list… between these two posts. I haven’t posted in all until now. Or are you completing someone else’s list?

...? What? When did you fall of my list?

Python, Black, Dragon and Gimli were the people who voted for Anen/VIP during the fake hammer.

Ok got it, so I’m still on your list?

[Afrayed Knott]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet.

I'm confused about how you start a post with this and end it with voting outside it.

That’s because I don’t complete my thought process in that post. I have now above

[Afrayed Knott]

(there used to be a post here saying I kinda want to vote Knott but then I saw Python complaining)

K let's vibe!

I think Comet and Python are townie.
Do you agree Mr. Knott?

Python is more town right now based on my re-read

Comet no

[Afrayed Knott]

*"Am I representing you right if I interpret your..."
Sorry, I was paying attention to something else meanwhile

To answer you yes. To point one above, but I didn’t complete my thought process. I should have gone on to say that there is no one pushing those three atm and so I will wait to see where that goes. Therefore I remain focused on you.

Now in point 2 you say I am miss- quoting you. Well no. I read all you had to say and take up the other points you have included as examples of your play. But it was that one line that stuck.

In response to the confusion I have caused in people's minds, this is what is missing from my post prior to voting, I've bolded it for clarity

[Afrayed Knott]

Comet no

Wrong!

Comet's vote on you is townvibe.
Try again.

is it? or is it opportunistic? So no I dont think that's wrong at all

[Afrayed Knott]

The more I read the more the only clear choice for me is one of Kittie, Timmer or Comet. Where to place my vote becomes an issue for me and it seemed to be an issue for VIP for sometime also. I'm still in two minds on this. he does talk a good talk, like a few others here. in fact Comet Dragon and VIP seem to very good at long posts extolling how the game should be played or how scum or town does this or that. I have read them and find some of the posts very interesting. In Dragons posts I noted the following comment to myself "lots of content and some questions but I don't see them pushing anyone or being helpful". And then I still get a good vibe. VIP has been doing the same thing but he has changed in his content as the game has progressed, he seems to be under pressure, why? Not sure. But then is he trying to swing us in his towniness or is it all a bluff and part of his self proclaimed brilliance at faking town when scum. So based on that:

VOTE: VIP

Okay this post makes me completely rescind my townread on Knott.

What the actual duck.

Knott when did I do "lots of content and some questions but not pushing anyone or being helpful"? Or are you saying I said that about you? Because I didn't

Also I didn't get how your thought process went from kittie/Timmer/Comet to VIP.

No I feel that about you, at the posts I have listed above 251, 257 and 356. lots of content but its all pretty much IMO as I have stated - blah blah

[Afrayed Knott]

Why do you think it's opportunistic?

because of my stupidity at not finishing my train of thought and fully explaining why my vote went on VIP and not her or the other two. I feel she has picked up on that, well she has picked up on the comments made by others about it.

Well by VIP, as her vote comes in after his question, actually her comment on it then the vote comes after you yourself raise a question on it, so opportunistic to sway the vote. IMO. and she would seem to be defensive of VIP, her town read?

[Afrayed Knott]

Also I disagree on the E-1 thing cause the scum could be inactive or afraid to vote, or just hiding in the shadows

Not wrong but also maths/statistics is the strongest tool I have at this point in the game so I'm willing to use it. That and the fact it felt like the VIP vote was added on at the end as like a 'okay I had this post already written out but I see now that the current leading wagon is VIP and VIP isn't me or my scum partner so I'm totally happy to try and push this wagon to end day 1 with a misexecute so I'm just going to tack on a VIP vote at the end of it'. It seems even more likely when you note the timestamps (#388-#393) cause it shows a lot of it has been written up before and then posted all at once so the idea of then tacking on something at the end of it seems to make sense to me?

Yes I started reading and making notes long before I posted those posts, I looked through all the the posts during the weekend period and copied out the quotes to Word then added my thoughts to them , I then posted them into the thread. Why?

because I find it easier to read and respond as I go, but then that I have found is problematic in that you may be responding and posting as you go but the conversation has moved on, or the point is moot, and so I spent over an hour this evening doing just that

Your use of the time stamps to convince yourself that you argument is true is rather weak and frankly incorrect.

[Afrayed Knott]

because of my stupidity at not finishing my train of thought and fully explaining why my vote went on VIP and not her or the other two. I feel she has picked up on that, well she has picked up on the comments made by others about it.

So you agree that you made a mistake/error but think I'm scummy for voting you because of it?

I made a mistake in not finishing my train of thought, I think your vote was opportunistic yes, I found you scummy before your vote

[Afrayed Knott]

In response to the confusion I have caused in people's minds, this is what is missing from my post prior to voting, I've bolded it for clarity

I appreciate this but there's always going to be a bit of suspicion of 'was this actually intended to be there from the start or is this an addition written later after people have raised issues with it?'

there is no way I can prove or disprove this, but it is a genuine statement on my part. If you feel its not then why don' t we use your timestamp comparison------ all my pre prepared posts hit the thread at the 55 to 58 minute to the hour point in time. My vote post occurred at the 11 minute past the hour mark, so some 13 minutes...

[Afrayed Knott]

I made a mistake in not finishing my train of thought, I think your vote was opportunistic yes, I found you scummy before your vote

So you think I was capitalising on a mistake you made by voting you over it? Would it have been more townie in your eyes for me to ignore/not mention the mistake?

Yes, and I am not sure, what reason do I have to trust you?

[Afrayed Knott]

anyway, I am retiring for the night as it in almost 11pm here

[Afrayed Knott]

Now I have had to sleep on it and understand that it was late evening for me during my last posts here. So maybe a hard day at work preparing knowledge checks and then the late night was not a good combination to try to think clearly.

So having read what has transpired here since my last post I do acknowledge and accept why Dragon and Comet have picked up on on my reactions and more pointedly my posts and deemed them scummy. But there is a flip side to the argument as I see it, when you consider it was my side of the argument. I'm not discounting the theory presented around why town Comet would react the way in which she did, but then how would scum Comet react? I'm not sure, as I have very little to go on her. What is her play style like as both town and scum? And having never played her before how could I be held up for not trusting her. Although yes the reasoning is sound, for example in the light of day (literally) most would pick it up, I would too, but regardless of alignment. So why wouldn't a player with experience not pick it up regardless of which camp they sit in?

There is one other thing here that erks me greatly, I have had a scum vibe from Comet for a while and her presence on my list has nothing whatsoever to do with her vote on me. Which I am still of the opinion that if you look at the timings of 1. her picking up on my screw up and 2. Her actual vote, it seems opportunistic as Dragon comes into the chat in between these two actions with his "what the duck" reaction to my vote post. But then you would have to line that up with where her alignment is, and regardless of the fact that a town Comet might pick it up, I firmly believe a scum Comet would too.

[Afrayed Knott]

I dunno, maybe I'm being too harsh/laser-focused here? It's not like we have anything really that strong to go off so this combined with the statistics I mentioned in #419 and the fact that Knott is going to be a hard read this game makes me comfortable with a vote on him.

Open to people picking apart my case here though - would appreciate others inputs whether it's criticism or agreement.

This I just don't get, why would you lim someone as they are a hard read, you are a hard read to me, as are most as I am fairly new to the game, even if you count my last forage into it. To me the only reason I can possibly come up with as to why you would say this is I might be close to the truth with regards to your alignment. I ask anyone, in particular those new to in the game, to tell me they aren't truly struggling to read the more experienced here?

[Afrayed Knott]

POE? might explain why I get lim'd D1 a lot, which is demoralising and frustrating.

[Afrayed Knott]

Is it ok to point at current games to help people get a read on me?

[Afrayed Knott]

Found it, POE, Now I understand.

[Afrayed Knott]

Do not reference ongoing games

thought not, that's why I removed the link to it from my Signature before I got into this game

[Afrayed Knott]

is Tim a true read or because LHF?

[Afrayed Knott]

480 is at Python

[Afrayed Knott]

I legitimately think Tim has a pretty good chance of flipping red when you take into account both their play and the gamestate. Lot's of headnod without townvibes being in the background type posting in a game where no one has any real scumreads and people keep walling explains a lot about how we got here

about sums up my feeling, lol that's sheeping right? I've just scummed all over myself again haven't I?

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: TimmerRC

[Afrayed Knott]

which you commented like this (before your quote):

but that is the part that sticks with me. its not a misquote. And I believe I have said that I recognise the rest of the post, so no I disagree, Your words are such that it says to me we cannot trust you. Do you deny that you have said that you played scum and yet won because you were blatantly over doing the look how town I am? you're words not mine.

[Afrayed Knott]

I know most of you think I'm a terrible player, but this is blatantly scummy for me

I wouldn't say you were a terrible player, but then what would I know. I'm not exactly up there with the top scum hunters , but yes that is scummy of you, only because you have something in your crop about me.

[Afrayed Knott]

There were about 13 minutes difference between Knott's #394 and #395, but only 3 minutes between #388 and #394. So he pre-wrote all the posts but not the conclusion? I don't think this is informative in itself. Is there anything I miss regarding this topic?

I've explained this, when you get back from your walk read my response, anyway keep digging.

[Afrayed Knott]

how about posting more about them to show us why they are scummy?

I have, but two of them are quite quiet so there's a reason in itself, the other continues to vibe scum to me.

That said and putting to one side your post about being a good scummy boi and misleading town, I must admit you still vibe town, so ok... you can go in the town drawer for now. As I actually do see good reasoning on most of your input

[Afrayed Knott]

*camera pans to Black still laying in bed*

Alright alright I'll get up. I lost my job yesterday so I'm just slightly depressed

Sorry to hear that Black. I hope you can figuratively and literally get back on your feet ....

[Afrayed Knott]

Not feeling very hot right now, coming down with manful. So my posts maybe 1. Erratic, 2. With little thought and 3. short

Ok, just for my fandom, I have spent the last 1 hour reading the posts since I last posted and these are my response

[Afrayed Knott]

Does no one else find this passage of interaction strange?


502 503 504 505 506 507 512 then again here 543 to 546.

almost like, "Hey your wagon is rolling we need to deflect it away, so this is what is going to happen" or am I being paranoid?

[Afrayed Knott]

I Like Kitties reappearance, which is unnerving as it to me seems full of good observation, but I will reread it as I see others pulling it apart. Meh now my lim list has an issue.

[Afrayed Knott]

@

Black

- I didn’t vote for Commet as there was nothing moving on her, and then one of my other lim listers stared to role so I jumped on it. I voted for VIP to put a little pressure on as the game was IS going slowly. Nothing but big walls and lurkers, until now. seems the lurkers have awoken

[Afrayed Knott]

Meh I have to agree with Gimli at 514

[Afrayed Knott]

Two quick votes for the same player close to each other. The same happened in 395 and 400. Knott first, Dragon next.

did it, I wasn’t conscious of it, Dragon is sheeping my votes? Hmmmmm

[Afrayed Knott]

Honestly my eyes are glazing over when I try to read VIP's 1v1 with Knott. Does it even have a point?

maybe, maybe knot, but I see your point. it's getting tiresome for me. that's why I am trying to shift
focus, but he keeps pecking away

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm not entirely sure what this is saying. Yes, town!Comet would react this way but also scum!Comet would react this way too potentially so picking up on a mistake and pushing it is scummy? I'm not saying that scum!Comet could not also point out a mistake you've made and push you over it - I'm saying that the act itself of pointing out you've done something that looks scummy and pushing you over it is not something you can really say is 'scummy behaviour' given you've also acknowledged that it's understandable why it would seem that way (if I've interpreted your posts right?)

about so yes

[Afrayed Knott]

Think it through logically. The further a game goes on, the less room there is for mistakes/misexecutes. Tactically speaking you do not want people you have a lot of trouble reading to be there in the final three because you're going to be in a lot of trouble as you'll have to now try and read them to judge if they're town or scum and getting it wrong is game over. I'm not saying you being a hard real is the sole reason for me wanting a lim on you since that'd be pretty weak reasoning, but if I have a set of people I feel I'm more able to read/get a grasp of then yeah there is incentive for me to want to keep those people around as opposed to people I cannot read, right?

Yeah I get it, when I asked what POE was….

quote tag fixed ~f

[Afrayed Knott]

ah shoot I screwed my quoting. @Mod can you fix that for me?

[Afrayed Knott]

I know it might seem like I'm leaning in too hard here but the last game I was in I found scum day 1 in a similar manner where I pushed them as part of a group involved in something scummy and their subsequent reaction and attempts to push back and accuse me of being scummy in return felt so ingenuine and weird that I kept it up and sure enough following a roleclaim fiasco they were exposed as scum. I suppose in a way you're giving me similar vibes.

but I didn't push back on you, I instigated the feel. You had virtually ignored me until I put you on my Lim list, as far as I can recall that is

[Afrayed Knott]

I still haven't caught up, and I am not sure when I will have time to fully catch up (I do intend to do ot as soon as I can),

Considering that i just found that you are basically voting more than the rest of the game combined right now, I would say that you are posting a ton and know very well where the game is at? You are def my top scumread at the moment.

So you think the more votes someone throws down then they are scum, is that your bottom line?

[Afrayed Knott]

So this is my summary post, and once again for my Fandom I am writing this in real time as I did before, so there will be a time gap.

Anyway. I really do not know what to think now. I need to reread both Comet and Kittie, as their recent interactions have placed a lot of doubt in my mind about where the sit with me ratm. I feel confident though that Timmer is a scum. Their re-emergence into the game seems contrived and this, if I am right, places a question mark over Black. But then I would like to hear from others on my post above regarding this.

[Afrayed Knott]

So you think the more votes someone throws down then they are scum, is that your bottom line?

If someone is voting a ton, but always for people who already have votes, it pings me big time.

And if someone votes as much as they have and then says they are trying to catch up, it makes no sense to me.

Lots of votes with original thoughts = town

Lots of votes on other people's work = scum

I don't see a particular pattern to it if they are changing votes a lot, but yes I suppose you could say that if they are skimming and changing that brings doubt into ones mind. However if they say they are skimming, and this statement is made quiet often, then ok. But from what I see DE is reading as he is picking up on issues within the thread, or am I being blinded by his fire and smoke?

[Afrayed Knott]

anyway off to cope with my manflu........

[Afrayed Knott]

Are you telling us that there's some hidden interaction between Timmer and Black?

Well, I did ask for others to give me their thoughts but nothing as yet except:

Why is reenterance to the game so scummy? nearly every player here took some sort of break or gap over the weekend, yourself included. Should we all be read as scum just on that alone? 'cuz that seems to be the only reason you are pointing scum on timmer???

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

To answer you both and everyone, I do see something in this. The whole inter change, initially at the vote and then again after that,
So I go back to my question, as that was what it is, I need to see what everyone thinks, so indulge me please?

Does no one else find this passage of interaction strange?

502 503 504 505 506 507 512 then again here 543 to 546.

almost like, "Hey your wagon is rolling we need to deflect it away, so this is what is going to happen" or am I being paranoid?

I feel confident though that Timmer is a scum. Their re-emergence into the game seems contrived and this, if I am right, places a question mark over Black.

But then I would like to hear from others on my post above regarding this.

I've possible had no responses as I did not place a question mark at the end.

[Afrayed Knott]

Huh?

So you didn't scum read Gimli based on Kittie's case? I interpreted 540 as you indeed thinking it was a strong case and subsequently agreeing that Gimli was scummy.

After rereading Comet, in particular the last few RL days and this, I'm rescinding my scum read on Comet. And having now looked at what is being discussed with Gimli. I would agree.

[Afrayed Knott]

I disagree, I think you can slot newbies within a few specific archetypes and read them pretty accurately

how?

I’d have agreed with Comet TBH.

[Afrayed Knott]

I don't really consider being on a lim list as an active push. Also I'm pretty sure I had already had you on my lim list before you put up yours and posted a readlist where you were 3rd from the bottom so I wouldn't say I ignored you.

OK fair enough.

[Afrayed Knott]

I think you may be.... or are you willfully ignoring it because your partners?


Interesting both Knott and dragon go down at the same time with an illness, coincidence I think knot!
(please read this with a sherlock holmes-esque voice)

I've noticed this pattern too, I had DE as possible scum earlier in the gameday, but said nothing other than a random vote in reaction to their Black vote. But then put them into my town drawer, I dont know why, possibly as they didn't vibe scum with me and so haven’t really looked their way. Thus my statement as I do now see them almost "sheeping" my thoughts and actions, or is it pocketing?

as for the illness - Really? what time of year is it?

[Afrayed Knott]

What's "pecking away"? (I'm not a native speaker and I've never heard this before.)

persistently pushing might be a more understandable term, or is it "tunnelling"

[Afrayed Knott]

In summary I realise that my town drawer is rather full and my scum drawer is emptying, This is just as I am now having to revaluate where I have placed everyone. The only lurker now is Gimli, there is nothing of substance from that slot. Both Kittie and Tim are now more active, should that say something, I am not sure as they maybe being coached, who knows.

My mind is too fuzzy due to flu to fully concentrate on each of those I should now look at. But if pushed I would say I have to say I have no clue.

We have some very experienced players in this game and I now understand that to try to read them might be a near impossibility without them staying in the game and using their experience to hunt scum, if they are indeed town. For me those players would be Dragon, Comet, Python (aka The group) and to some extent Black and VIP. To that end I'm not sure what to do, surely the selection process is random for roles? or do Mods ensure a fair mix of experience in all teams? meh...

UNVOTE:

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: DragonEater

I’ve been sat here in my panadol induced fuzz and can only come up with this - Lim on DE, Gimli or I. I know what I will flip and when you see that, if i am your choice, then Lim the other 2. Or is that just too much melodrama?

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

I’m sorry, but does no one else see what I see. Black, Timmer and either VIP or Gimli?

That’s my scum, now.

VOTE: Timmer

[Afrayed Knott]

Look at my earlier post about the possible relationship between Black and Timmer, then read the recent interaction between the two. It stinks of a pre planned effort to engage Tim and deflect attention, with some clever positioning by Black.

Thats what I’m seeing

[Afrayed Knott]

Tim Tim Tim, you aren’t reading are you. Not once have you countered anything I have said about you. And, I’m not sat here all day looking at the thread. But I do sit on occasion and think through what I’m seeing and reading. And right now it’s the only thing I’m seeing.

[Afrayed Knott]

Lim on DE, Gimli or I. I know what I will flip and when you see that, if i am your choice, then Lim the other 2. Or is that just too much melodrama?

But it's only me, who's voting for you right now! (Yes, there was a mod error.) You're not a wagon at all.

You have misinterpreted what I was saying. At that time. As it’s a thought I had. I don’t care if there is a wagon on me or not, it’s not material to me. I’ve I get lim’d and it helps catch scum then go for it.

But what I will say is that after that post and reading g the passages of conversation between Black Tim, I’ve reverted back to my earlier feel.

[Afrayed Knott]

I feel Black and Timmer for definite. And then one of you or Gimli

[Afrayed Knott]

Afrayed is probably town for thinking there's 3 scum

Oh my. There’s only 2

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

I mean I get why you think this but his posts are just bad enough to come from scum rn

You are funny.

What’s E1 mean?

[Afrayed Knott]

Almost or can do?

[Afrayed Knott]

And careful Afrayed, it sort of looks like you and gimli are... having a preplanned conversation, there.

You’re funny too, I’ll get back to you soon

[Afrayed Knott]

it can be scummy because it means he is not even trying to solve

You mean like you have been?

[Afrayed Knott]

Who said that Black has not once voted for Gimli, and is that still the case? If Black isn’t voting and still feels as they do about Gimli, why no Vote?

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: Black

[Afrayed Knott]

Well Gimli claimed Scum, Comet has not caught up, VIP is still reading me as scum, As is Timmer, but he’s just anxious chap who is probably town after all that boohoo stuff.

Is Gimli setting up Kittie?? Must be or is it WIFOM.

I have no idea about python, and if they are scum we are screwed. Dragon joins and leaves people’s scum lists like a bus schedule.

D2 will be fun

[Afrayed Knott]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

[Afrayed Knott]

I feel Black and Timmer for definite. And then one of you or Gimli

But then why would a townie be *this* confident!? Arghhhhh

No one should be that confident at this stage, so for me it's alignment neutral. Prob just blindering.

OMG! just live with it I called it a qtr right.

[Afrayed Knott]

Who said that Black has not once voted for Gimli, and is that still the case? If Black isn’t voting and still feels as they do about Gimli, why no Vote?

VOTE: Black

Are you voting Black for not voting for Gimli because you think Gimli is scum? Shouldn't you be voting Gimli to confirm if he's scum before then going on Black?

I’ll place my vote where I wish, if you don’t like it fine. It’s my vote and my prerogative.

Have you caught up yet?

[Afrayed Knott]

Well Gimli claimed Scum

That was pretty clearly a joke

Huh? I thought if you a lim’d you had to claim your alignment? Or am I missing something?

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: Black

Are you voting Black for not voting for Gimli because you think Gimli is scum? Shouldn't you be voting Gimli to confirm if he's scum before then going on Black?

Interested in the answer to this.

Why? Tell you what, too answer all my questions to you and I’ll answer this

Actually no. I will answer it. Black you and either Gimli or VIP were my scum reads Gimli was at E1 I was interested to see what Black did, considering they hadn’t voted for Gimli. So I put my vote there.

[Afrayed Knott]

Huh? I thought if you a lim’d you had to claim your alignment? Or am I missing something?

It was a fake hammer

Oh ffs, stop with the fake hammers please…

[Afrayed Knott]

There aren’t exactly a lot of vote counts to look at are there….and I’m on my phone so it’s a pain scrolling back

[Afrayed Knott]

Have you caught up yet…. Keep reading

/dead.

I'm now starting to wonder if the connection I saw between gimli and afrayed was bang on and knott is now just going YOLO to distract, lol.

I really want to swear at you, but your good

[Afrayed Knott]

I should not have been in the thread last night. It was after midnight my time, I had had a horrible day with flu. falling in and out of sleep.

to answer a few things here,

There's a page one set up, I read that after seeing that I had not understood the scum team composition, that's why the facepalm.. If you read back through my other recent posts regarding the possible scum team, you will see that I had been under that impression for a long time.

My vote on Back was a genuine failed attempt to lure a hammer onto Gimli and prove my point that Black and Tim are the scum team. which I still maintain.

Question: why is python going after the more experienced players and not the newbies? is it to make the game easier later?

anyway. My head still throbs, my throat is sandpaper and my nose is on tap. I am happy with where my vote is. I hope to get well soon.

[Afrayed Knott]

HI all, Down with Covid and have decided to stay in this game for now as I at least have a read on the game. I’m sticking with my thoughts from D1 as they are all I have to go on. I really feel that Black and Tim are where we should look. That whole interaction as Tim’s wagon grew and the vote by Black then Tim enters the chat almost immediately, with that AtE set of posts and Black then removes their vote. Followed by similar interchanges. Tim’s change from being “oh I don’t know what to think, I am lost blah blah blah… then towards the end of D1 Tim becoming more pushy? Smacks of collusion and some back room coaching in my inexperienced opinion.

On Python we should focus on their reads because I strongly feel they hit a nerve.

VOTE: Tim

[Afrayed Knott]

You misunderstood, Towards end of D1 Python made it very clear where we should look. So we should start there

[Afrayed Knott]

809 and 819

[Afrayed Knott]

Yes the reads, but Possibly both, but I had them as null tbh. although in retrospect and now knowing what we all know, someone could hide behind putting them down as an obv TR..

[Afrayed Knott]

I think the line in 809 is quite telling.

[Afrayed Knott]

Anyway back later, I have a brass band to extract from my head

[Afrayed Knott]

He's not faking covid.

It's also very rude to say that he might be faking it.

I might have phrased that badly, sorry, Knott if you put it in the way Dragon said, but my conclusion was that he was NOT faking it.

Out of Fucking order !!

[Afrayed Knott]

Ok I take that back….

[Afrayed Knott]

VIP you are so wrong really you are. But hey it’s obv you have an issue with me. And have had all game. I mostly read you as town, even with this tunnel vision you have. So shut up and start looking elsewhere. I’d also state that I’m reading DE as town now.


Right I’m going to swallow some more drugs and let the fuzz take over again

If we are settling on a Black wagon I’m game for
That.

VOTE: Black

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott, my problem with this is that in the "quite telling" post Python would wagon Gimli (who flipped town), Tim (whom you've been scumreading anyway) and more or less Black (whom you've been scumreading anyway, too). Would you have brought this up just as eagerly if Python had mentioned other names?

Of course I would have. I would have looked at both what Gimli and Python were saying in D1, we all should. And had my reads not aligned I would have looked at why. But my reads did align, and Python’s read on me is correct. So I am always going to trust the reads of a confirmed Town, dead or alive. Our only reads we should trust are these 2 dead townies and I would say we start there. For example, who are Python? It’s a group of people who have some experience in the game, or am I wrong? So why were they NK’d, we have already discussed this but not at length. But let us break it down. They were quiet forceful in their reads and quiet adamant in their strategy to lim. Which means they were killed for their reads, and more importantly for their threat to scum later in the game. The fact that they were an Obv TR read that DE talks about is a factor, but only if you TR them. Its very opportune to say “I TR’d them”, but that is not indicative to alignment is it. Because as scum you would know they were Town.

Gimli’s downfall was lack of interest/input in the game but they still had reads, which were Kittie and either Black or DE.

For the question who the scum are.
Not only the fact that there are only 2 scum in the game. I'm sure it was mentioned before a couple of times. I'm lazy to dig it up, but I remember giving answers like "partner speculation on Day1 is bad", and there were other mentions too. So, either it's blatantly fake or Knott wasn't reading at all. (Interestingly, he was reading it enough to give reasons for voting for Timmer or me.)

People keep pulling me on this, but had you read on VIP instead of cherry picking you’d see that I do say that my posts have been consistent in this belief, And I was genuinely of the mind that there were 3 scum in this game.

Why should your read affect my read on you?

Why should your read affect my read on you?
Besides, what's that "start looking elsewhere"? I was voting for Black when you posted this. And willing to put my vote back as everyone's told everything they want Today.
Call me a tunneler, I remember having a bad reputation for that, but you care more about my read on you than anything else in this game!

Because you are wasting your time looking at me.

By the way, my name was there, too. If I read it correctly, they'd have wagoned me, too

yes that is how I read it

Apologies - only semi-present at the moment.

Really dislike the super early E-1 and I feel like a broken record at this point but once again it was Knott putting someone at E-1 without saying as such. I also find Knott's progression here making so little sense - near the end of Day 1 his scumreading on Black was dependent on Gimli being scum (he wasn't) and his other scumread was VIP who is... on the Black wagon today that he joined. I think his justification here today is he's sheeping Python but... why?

Dragon/VIP/Knott -

are you comfortable with the fellow people on your wagon here

?

I don't understand the bolded part. As for the rest maybe you want to read my earlier reads and compare them to when Python actually gave their lim pool.


try these to start 190388470480565567577647

483 yes I sheep there and I will freely admit that. but that is becasue i am consistent in most of my reads. yes they fluctuate but they do show a core consistency

I feel like limming inside Gimli/Black/Comet/DE is significantly more likely to hit red than Knott/Kittie/Tim/VIP

-A

This is where I had a thought about Python being scum. I actually thought that they were trying to target the more experienced players, And when I asked they qualified their pools here

Question: why is python going after the more experienced players and not the newbies? is it to make the game easier later?

We're not? We've got a mix of both in our townpool (Kittie/Knott/Comet) and scumpool (Gimli/VIP/Tim)

Then the post regarding their thoughts

We're fine with Gimli and Tim wagons, and we're willing to go with a spicy Black wagon if it becomes needed. Zero interest in Knott/Kittie/Comet wagons rn

So in answer to your rather weak attempt to label me with sheeping I would so no.

But here is a question Comet, why do you think they had you in their scum pool?


Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

[Afrayed Knott]

Hi Dann, are we then to conf TR you as you wouldn't take the role if Black had not been town, is that what you are saying?

[Afrayed Knott]

EBWOP scratch that question Comet

But here is a question Comet, why do you think they had you in their scum pool?

it should be at VIP..

[Afrayed Knott]

And I should have spaced those post links out. sorry. Still have a fuzzy head due to Covid, which is a lot better today thanks.

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

[Afrayed Knott]

You and Dragon are in my limpool as I said at the end of Day 1 and VIP is somewhere in null at the moment. I'm asking if the three of you all see each other as townie and this as a genuine townie push against a (presumable) scum!Black/Dann or if you think someone on there is taking advantage of the push - which has implications. Since I view the three of you as either scummy or null, I think you know my opinion on the matter.

Most times with DE I do but then he does things that put me off and make me wonder, His carefree attitude for example, coud be a ruse could be genuine town, then his role fishing to which I asked

Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

Still no answer

With VIP I acknowledge some see him as scummy, but he actually sounds like me and so I oft times feel he is town trying to hunt down scum. Trouble is he is tunnelling me and if he really wants to hunts scum he should look elsewhere. He hasn’t really pressured anyone else but then that is from my POV.

[Afrayed Knott]

190 says you view Timmer as scummy. 388 says you view Anen/VIP as scummy. 470 says you view Comet as scummy. 480 says you view Timmer as scummy. 565 says you view Black as scummy (because you think Gimli is scum). 567 is your reasoning for voting Timmer. 577 is you saying you're confident in Timmer scum. 647 is you saying once again you view Black as scummy because she's covering for Gimli!scum.

How is any of that relevant to this Black vote/your progression on it...? If anything isn't it pointing to the exact opposite because Gimli flipped town?

I am confident Timmer is scum and the interaction with the Black slot convinced me that they are both scum. In fact D2 my first vote was on Timmer. Bu then my other scum read's wagon developed and so, yes I jumped on it. And you are doing what VIP is doing skimming, I make it very clear why I suspected the Black slot. And how I use my vote against my top scum reads is for me to decide. Please tell me where it says I should do what you are insisting I do.

[Afrayed Knott]

@Mod

I acknowledge that I have placed people at E1 without informing everyone, and I have confirmed in the rules that I have to do this. Please note that this is only my second game back after a long absence and my first game didn’t last long. So I am still rusty. Sorry

[Afrayed Knott]

Python is a strong player - not contesting that - but they did push a Gimli wagon into a subsequent Gimli townflip. Does that not make you waver even a little? Why take Python's reads over say, Gimli's reads? He flipped town too.

If you're consistent in your reads, then why the sudden Black e-1 over voting Timmer? Don't you confidently view him as scum? Because all I've really seen regarding your own reasoning for Black!scum has been tied to trying to cover/protect scum!Gimli... who flipped town. I just don't get your reasoning here - and that's not a good sign when you're apparently confident enough to put a wagon to E-1 unannounced.

You should read this for your first dig

Of course I would have. I would have looked at both what Gimli and Python were saying in D1, we all should. And had my reads not aligned I would have looked at why. But my reads did align, and Python’s read on me is correct. So I am always going to trust the reads of a confirmed Town, dead or alive. Our only reads we should trust are these 2 dead townies and I would say we start there. For example, who are Python? It’s a group of people who have some experience in the game, or am I wrong? So why were they NK’d, we have already discussed this but not at length. But let us break it down. They were quiet forceful in their reads and quiet adamant in their strategy to lim. Which means they were killed for their reads, and more importantly for their threat to scum later in the game. The fact that they were an Obv TR read that DE talks about is a factor, but only if you TR them. Its very opportune to say “I TR’d them”, but that is not indicative to alignment is it. Because as scum you would know they were Town.

Gimli’s downfall was lack of interest/input in the game but they still had reads, which were Kittie and either Black or DE.

For the second dig, I’ve explained my read on Black and it had nothing to do with Gimli


Why are you cherry picking?

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott was voting for Black because of Gimli being scum - so I kind of count it as pseudo being on the wagon because for it to make sense he would have to believe Gimli was scum.

Bu that was not my reason for my vote, stop misreping me thank you

[Afrayed Knott]

Does anyone else find it suspicious that both black and VIP replaced out, when it looked like they were being looked at a little too hard?

VIP possibly, but not Black, as far as I can tell She is a good player and I believe she has posted about RL issues

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott, gives me scum vibes just all the way around. I have felt for a good chunk of the game his scum reads came from trivial things, such as someone was less active over the weekend, where most of the players including himself stepped away for the weekend. Demanding that someone participate, then calling them scum when they did. These are just off the top of my head, while getting back into the game. I will have to go back and do an iso for specific examples, if anyone would like.

Ummm no, at the beginning of the game there were quiet a few who were not in the game, you, Timmer and Gimli. Timmer even stated why they weren’t in the game with the AtE posts about not knowing what to do. Gimli also stated that they had not been paying attention to the game, I also believe you did the same.

So this would be your example? (I've bolded it for clarity)

So for me the initial feel towards Timmer, Kittie and Comet remains in place, and I am not fully convinced by my town read on VIP.

The feeling towards Timmer and Kittie is more to do with their scant content

, but Commet is not floating my boat. I just don’t get a good vibe from the posts.

But then I did say this

I Like Kitties reappearance, which is unnerving as it to me seems full of good observation, but I will reread it as I see others pulling it apart. Meh now my lim list has an issue.

And this (bolded again for clarity)

Anyway. I really do not know what to think now.

I need to reread both Comet and Kittie, as their recent interactions have placed a lot of doubt in my mind about where the sit with me ratm

. I feel confident though that Timmer is a scum. Their re-emergence into the game seems contrived and this, if I am right, places a question mark over Black. But then I would like to hear from others on my post above regarding this.

Which I think speaks for itself. But if you want me to broaden this out the fact that players began to play and were posting content that pushed others such as you were doing, then I had to reevaluate my reads on them, which is my meaning in these posts.

In my mind Being away for a weekend was not a reason to call people out, especially if they set their VLA.

[Afrayed Knott]

Hi Dann, are we then to conf TR you as you wouldn't take the role if Black had not been town, is that what you are saying?

that comment was mainly directed at Dragon if-town

he's basing part of his scum read on my slot based on another game that just ended where i was correctly scum reading black

I think I've built up a pretty solid mental model of black as a player since then, I'm not like infallible, but I'll just say I was pretty sure I was replacing into a town slot

do with that what you will

So we should not being viewing you as town. Even though your entry gambit is suggestive that you are and we should all sit back and let you be?

[Afrayed Knott]

Hi merlyn welcome to the game

Yeah that's too many dumbtells

what's a dumbtell? for those of us with fuzz in their brains

[Afrayed Knott]

Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

Dragon just so you don't miss it....

[Afrayed Knott]

EBWOP scratch that question Comet

But here is a question Comet, why do you think they had you in their scum pool?

it should be at VIP..

And this, but I suppose that is moot now he has pulled out of the game... Unless Merlyn can shed light on why her slot was viewed as scummy by Python?

[Afrayed Knott]

@Mod

I acknowledge that I have placed people at E1 without informing everyone, and I have confirmed in the rules that I have to do this. Please note that this is only my second game back after a long absence and my first game didn’t last long. So I am still rusty. Sorry

It's not a rule per se. Players aren't required to make note of voting to E-1. It's considered a good practice in Newbie games.

thank you

[Afrayed Knott]

Also DE why are you role fishing? 896

Dragon just so you don't miss it....

It's not role fishing

I literally explained why I thought that it's possible that someone would have a guilty because VIP thought it was TMI, which it wasn't.

But it is, you assume there are no masons and then state that it would be a crazy notion if Black and Comet are masons. You also state that there maybe a possibility someone may have an investigative role. If that isn’t fishing I don’t know what is.

Why even bring this up?

Yes you could argue that based on probabilities it has to be either this or that. But there is a simpler reason. And that’s you have a greater understanding as you know what column we are in, and there is only one way that would be a fact?

[Afrayed Knott]

I do believe it so it’s not shit. Your reaction is also not considered as it’s been before

You can shout as much as you want. I think you are. And No I am considering you are scum in A or C.

[Afrayed Knott]

Just in case you’re around Knott and can respond, let me make sure we’re on the same page here so I don’t end up confused again.

Your current scumteam is Black (now Dann) and Timmer. Timmer you view as scum for several different reasons whereas Black you viewed as scum because it looked like she was trying to cover and help Timmer out of his wagon. Do I have that all right? Am I missing anything?

I am holding on Dann, not so sure, in particular the whole "I wouldn't join the game if Black was not vibing town" thing is obviously either true or complete bullshit.

I'd like to say I am sure Timmer remains a definite scum, but I am starting to doubt that line of thought. I am still not convinced they are town

But now I have strong doubts on Dragon. This game has done this to me twice now.

for the record I feel your town. or very good scum. Because you are actually providing some considered reads which are sensical

[Afrayed Knott]

This is pretty much the main reason I'm scumreading you. When I try and put myself in town!Knott's shoes where I'm fully committed to your arguments and beliefs then I would be pushing hard for a Timmer execute as he's my confident scum and then when he flips scum I then push Black because of her scummy interactions of trying to cover for scum!Timmer. Instead you've been trying to mostly get Black executed first and it makes no sense from my town!Knott perspective. Lets say Black flips scum - I was already confident in Timmer scum so that isn't helping me... and if Black flips town then I've made a serious blunder but it doesn't even clear Timmer in my head because I'm scumreading Timmer for reasons outside of the Black interactions so I've gained nothing from it.

Whereas if I look at your posts from a scum!Knott perspective then I can see a more logical/realistic reason for why I've been acting the way I am - getting a townie to E-1 so early in day 2 is putting pressure on town and not me or my scum!partner. I can rationalise and make sense of the actions (even if personally I think putting someone to E-1 that early is just going to make everyone on the wagon look scummy) - which I can't do as town!Knott.

If you can explain if I'm missing something here then I'd appreciate it - I've seen multiple people now saying they see you as very townie and I'd love to understand/agree with them, but I just don't get the whole pushing for Black before Timmer thing you've been doing.

OK I see what you are driving at here, My thought, which solidified after I established to my dumb self that there are only 2 scum in the game, was - as I am sure that Black and Tim are scum so we lim the more experienced scum and have then a lesser experienced scum left in the game. So when the opportunity presented itself in a fast moving Black wagon I changed my vote. I suppose I wanted to be proved right, still do

[Afrayed Knott]

Afrayed has had a stubborn "no i'm right and you are wrong" Pingu arms crossed meme thing all game and it is dense and convoluted. I lean towards self-blindered town for them but the style of posting is brutal to read alignment into.

This -

Everyone does. That’s why I got lim’d early my first game back. I don’t mess around I am direct blunt and to the point. And can often be read as scummy. But that is because I’m ex Mil and have a different outlook on life. So just believe I’m town and I love treading on egg shells.

[Afrayed Knott]

A dumbtell is when somebody pretends not to know something when they really do. In this case, I'm saying that I wouldn't be surprised that someone or more than one someone who professed they didn't know that a hammer hadn't really happened actually did know, and played it up to be able to give a towny 'oh no!' kind of reaction.

thank you

I'm not sure what you're saying here, Knott, are you saying Black was deflecting the Timmer wagon?

yes

[Afrayed Knott]

Get well soon Tim. Not sure what to think on your NA. Was it successful and in what way is the obvious question. Definitely need to reconsider everything I have been thinking up to this point. As it would seem that I’ve been wrong that is unless there is a counter claim.

[Afrayed Knott]

And I am not pushing for you to tell us, just thinking out loud

[Afrayed Knott]

Clarity maybe?

[Afrayed Knott]

Darn I’m phone posting. That is in response to Comet at 1124

[Afrayed Knott]

I’m considering Merlyn as a fake claim. Surprisingly as they conf me as town ….. I know I’ve been all over Tim and Black/Dan all game.

But it’s hard to actually accept that thought. I’d love to accept it as I am town, but then Scum might use that as a way to pocket me.

[Afrayed Knott]

I looked at who was left in the game.

Comet seemed town. I have a hunch on Afrayed that they are town.

Black/Dannflor had a decent chance of being bad, but if they were good, there was no way they would get night killed.

Kittie is a complete question mark but was under a lot of scrutiny so if they are town they would not get killed.

But Merlyn... Merlyn subbed in and didnt really do much and it felt like he was letting us kill each other. But, with the number of players left, they COULD be good. So I gave them a 50/50 chance of either being bad or targeted for a kill.

No one was going to kill me, I've been taking too many votes.

Makes sense. And you have a fever

[Afrayed Knott]

I’m going to follow what I now see as the town group.

The exception to this is Tim, Merlyn, Kittie. There be scum somewhere me thinks

[Afrayed Knott]

I’ll be out of the thread now for about 8 hours as it is dark zero 30 here. And I should get to bed

[Afrayed Knott]

Oi! I was off to bed. But why?

[Afrayed Knott]

They were the most clearly townie player in the game imo, I thought they had the best chance of being targeted for a kill.

I had a similar thought that Comet might well be targeted after her interaction with me and then that used against me today, or am I being too simplistic here. and then Merlyn saying she checked me out and got a town result, but then as scum that would already be knowledge for her. Your argument Tim with regard the setup makes sense and I can't see where Merlyn can counter it. You are saying we are in column C? Currently my vote today will go to Merlyn.

[Afrayed Knott]

Currently my vote today will go to Merlyn.

Afrayed can you explain how you got here

I know you've been hard scum reading Timmer for quite a while and you acknowledged that but it's not clear to me what made you decide Merlyn was more likely to be lying

To me Timmer's argument on the night action makes more sense and Merlyn has not really provided a counter to that argument

[Afrayed Knott]

I know Knott mentioned the 'wagon dissuading' thing which I don't reeeally find too scummy but I can absolutely see Black coaching Timmer halfway into Day 1 because his posting was pretty sparse and suspicion was slowly piling up and then having that mini-argument in thread to set-up this sudden re-engagement/improvement of playstyle... though maybe that's reading a bit too much into it.

I believed it at the time. still want to but Timmer's argument is compelling, and where is the counter to it from Merlyn that shoots it out of the water. I think we are being a little to deep thinking with this. unless you or anyone else can break it down so that Timmer's argument has at least a 60% doubt factor? For what it is worth I feel Kittie is the partner now. Based on current interaction.

[Afrayed Knott]

Kittie mentioned something that had been a hunch of mine as well, that Afrayed was a friendly neighbour. @Afrayed, if you happen to be a FN, now would be the time to say so since there's no FN /cop combo possible and it would bolster my claim.

Im just a VT

[Afrayed Knott]

thus my saying this

They were the most clearly townie player in the game imo, I thought they had the best chance of being targeted for a kill.

I had a similar thought that Comet might well be targeted after her interaction with me and then that used against me today, or am I being too simplistic here. and then Merlyn saying she checked me out and got a town result, but then as scum that would already be knowledge for her. Your argument Tim with regard the setup makes sense and I can't see where Merlyn can counter it.

You are saying we are in column C?

Currently my vote today will go to Merlyn.

[Afrayed Knott]

So looking at VIPs ISO, he spends a lot of time interacting with Dragon, Gimli, Black, myself, Timmer and Python in fact he is very forceful and argumentative with each of us and he interacts with Comet too but doesn't engage in a defensive way too much, just normal interaction.

however his interactions with Kittie, seem considered and pretty much fillers. he lists Kittie as scum early on but she moves up his list as his time in the game continues. I might be guilty of subjectivity but here are his posts/interactions and mentions of her

Spoiler:

Kittiesecret.
Another newer player, she could go either way.
Null

Kittiesecret - I really don't like her posts, lean scum at best

A perfect example for posting something without posting anything.

I didn't like Kittie's 157.
I can only see two excuses for not being involved with real reads. (1) It's too early and (2) You're a new player.

About the same players? If you mean the same players who're in this very game, you're right.
And I really, really don't like that you end everything saying that it's "too early". It sounds like you're trying to find excuses for your reads.

I know it's sheer speculation and it's "too early" for saying things like this now*, but what if the scum are among those who're townreading me right now?
*There it goes, Kittie, a "too early" from me.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: KittieSecret
See my reasons in 193

Kittie is a good place for your vote in my opinion... but I find her scummy, and you don't.

Kittie.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to answer everything you posted thoroughly (will do so if needed), but I'm telling you what my problem is. I can see too easily a scum mindest behind your posts. Something like "Ugh, I drew scum. What to do now? Maybe I could have a nice style and try hard to look town and I could get away with that."
I may be wrong, especially if I think about my very first game here. (No surprise that I was terrible. I raged out early and accused the more experienced players that they simply wanted to remove the newbies because they drew scum - while the actual scum had to do nothing but grab some chips and popcorn.)
But you're still my top scumread right now.

You may be right that my reasons are shallow, but in this game phase it's rare that there are "deep" reasons. Maybe it matches your "too early" mindset, but a "too early" mindset doesn't make the game moving.

Comet, 215 - if someone defends me for no reason is an Auto-FoS for me, but whatever.

Dragon, 217 and maybe everyone - you're the 3rd or 4th players with too-few-to-no scumreads. Is it only my mindset that has a different threshold on the concept "summy"?

Nevertheless, not much happened, as far as I can see.

Erm... Kittie clearly told us that she was new. I clearly told you that I'd back after 5 years. Knott and I even talked out our common meta. In what universe does it add up to put Kittie and me on the same experience level?
(Kittie, you may find me offensive, but this was no offense. It's more than enough to check the games Knott linked to see how "genius" I in this game can be.)

Kittie and Black looks a bit more town than before.
DragonEater is much scummier, the posts I mentioned above, and the opportunistic vote on me before.
Knott - I don't know, let's see what comes next.
Timmer produced nothing new, still townish.
Comet may be town.
Python is still town, I can easily see a town mindset behind that "trollhammer", too. (Why is it called "meme"?)
Gimli is scummy, regardless of that NAI part about the hammer.

So, it's something like
[town]
Python
Comet
Timmer
Knott
Black
Kittie
Gimli
Dragon
[scum]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DragonEater

Kittie.
498 - That's indeed a good summary on Gimli. (I've not checked it whether it was cherry-picking though, it may happen later but I've been thinking Gimli's scum anyway.)

In post 508, Kittiesecret wrote:
why were you so concerned that someone wasn't voting?
I don't like when someone's not voting for a long time. It's only my personal POV, but I consider it anti-town. Even if I remember doing the same shirt in certain games before.

I have no time to read on right now, but I try to post a readlist (posts over #652 are not included yet)

Knott - I still find him scummy, see my earlier posts. Even if you call me a tunneler.
Black - I don't see her as obv-town as a lot of other players do, but I don't think this Lim would happen Today, so whatever.
Comet - Townread on her (at least I know the correct pronoun now).
DragonEater - Unsorted, I owe you a re-read.
Gimli - Still scummy, partly because of that reaction on that "meme", but not only.
Kittie - I can see a town mindset here.
Timmer - I can see a town mindset here, too. But that Timmer-Black interaction might be a thing.
Python - Townread from the beginning, it hasn't changed since then.

Really concise, because I had little time for this.

(4) Kittie, I hope you're reading now. It's NOT the fact how many times Dragon voted. It's the fact that he ended up hammering Gimli - literally the only player he hadn't voted for before!

(4) Kittie, I hope you're reading now. It's NOT the fact how many times Dragon voted. It's the fact that he ended up hammering Gimli - literally the only player he hadn't voted for before!

My last read on Kittie was something like "could be town after all".

[/spoiler=]

[Afrayed Knott]

but then he got irrate about this catch of mine. Which in my mind adds weight to Merlyn being scum and Kitty being the partner

which you commented like this (before your quote):

but that is the part that sticks with me. its not a misquote. And I believe I have said that I recognise the rest of the post, so no I disagree, Your words are such that it says to me we cannot trust you. Do you deny that you have said that you played scum and yet won because you were blatantly over doing the look how town I am? you're words not mine.

this of course is Merlyns slot.

[Afrayed Knott]

Knott tried to E-1 them without warning

when?

[Afrayed Knott]

And Comet why are you hung up on that. when this:-

@Mod

I acknowledge that I have placed people at E1 without informing everyone, and I have confirmed in the rules that I have to do this. Please note that this is only my second game back after a long absence and my first game didn’t last long. So I am still rusty. Sorry

It's not a rule per se. Players aren't required to make note of voting to E-1. It's considered a good practice in Newbie games.

thank you

[Afrayed Knott]

timmer can only be scum with comet or kittie

or me from an outside perspective

Right now I’m swinging towards Comet. So tunneled on me it’s like OMGUS x 2

@ Comet you reek of pigeon do do.

[Afrayed Knott]

Don’t protect me…. If that helps in anyway. Which it probably doesn’t

[Afrayed Knott]

VOTE: Comet

I’m done with her

[Afrayed Knott]

unless I'm Monty Hall-ing myself here.

what?

[Afrayed Knott]

And Comet why are you hung up on that. when this:-

I'm not accusing you of breaking the rules. What are you arguing here? I mentioned that you put Timmer to E-1 unannounced which indicates to me that if Timmer is scum then it's unlikely you're his partner. Are you arguing that you are Timmer's scum partner here?

you tell me

you seem to think you have all the answers..

Basically you are so tunnelled on me its unbelievable, listed to DE maybe...

[Afrayed Knott]

Why is this so difficult, As far as I understand Ochum's Razor we lynch Merlyn or Timmer. my vote is on Merlyn

my vote above for Comet is because she is entering my OMGUS radar, and she really needs to take a Valium.

let's do this now please

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Merlyn

E-2 I THINK COMET?

[Afrayed Knott]

Funnily enough when I was browsing through Timmer scumpartners my first thought was "I think frankly I come out of this looking the most partnered."

I like this as an alternative lim.... WIFOM???

[Afrayed Knott]

That's... certainly a string of posts.

isn't it just, I'm glad you liked it

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm not capable of processing more than four things actively in my head at once so I'm just gonna write you off as town here Dann (you can thank Black for it).

Teams in my head...

Timmer/Kittie, Merlyn/Kittie, Merlyn/Knott.

Mathematically that makes Merlyn the better execute - unless I'm Monty Hall-ing myself here.

interesting you might say that , after Dann , who just became your best pocket buddy, said that the Timmer/Knott combo is not happening...

[Afrayed Knott]

Apologies if I missed it Merlyn, but have you said who you think Timmer's scumpartner is?

Same to you Timmer - if Merlyn is scum then who's the scumpartner?

hmmmm, this just does not feel right. so town, but also, so not town....

[Afrayed Knott]

I love a tunnel.... beep beep

[Afrayed Knott]

I think you are scum Comet... and over to you.....

[Afrayed Knott]

please for the love of god unvote comet

why?

[Afrayed Knott]

but I did

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm curious then. You think I'm scum because I'm OMGUS-ing you. What reasons do you have for pushing/voting me that aren't related to my own past pushes on you?

I'm moving away from Kittie, And totally FOCUSED on you after Merlyn. tell me why I shouldn't be?

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm going to be honest I feel like this outburst is a little town indicative from Afrayed

I mean I guess unless he's panicking because he thinks his scum buddy merlyn is goin to be limmed and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks

but then why not stay on comet

whatever

[Afrayed Knott]

Ironically I actually was coming around to you being town today -

is that because you know I am?

[Afrayed Knott]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Merlyn

E-2 I THINK COMET?

just for clarity

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm moving away from Kittie, And totally FOCUSED on you after Merlyn. tell me why I shouldn't be?

Your answer to "Why are you pushing me?" is "Tell me why I shouldn't be pushing you."?

I thought it was obvious why I am pushing you, but hey how you interpret it is totally up to you, I am no longer listening to your arguments and I am losing sight of Kittie and coming around quickly to you as a scum buddy to Merlyn

TELL ME WHY I AM WRONG?

[Afrayed Knott]

please don't put merlyn to e-1 yet

I'm not quite ready for that

WTF not?

[Afrayed Knott]

I mean if I had actually been pushing you like I had been Day 1/Day 2 then on sooome level I could expect push-back courtesy of OMGUS but the weird thing is I haven't even been pushing you today. I've said as much at the start of the day that I'm not voting outside of Merlyn/Timmer and the times you've came up today I've been actually saying you were the less likely scum. I don't understand what the town!Knott perspective here is at all... why actively try to push/vote me (and even inquire about executing me over the 1v1) here?

whatever,, scum Comet..

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm going to be honest I feel like this outburst is a little town indicative from Afrayed

I mean I guess unless he's panicking because he thinks his scum buddy merlyn is goin to be limmed and throwing everything at the wall to see what sticks

but then why not stay on comet

where's my vote genius?

[Afrayed Knott]

You see this as town outburst, Dann?

pocket Dann again

[Afrayed Knott]

TELL ME WHY I AM WRONG?

whatever,, scum Comet..

?

wow... read it all and answer the question please

[Afrayed Knott]

He is town, I don't know what to tell you

Check the PM again please

what PM?

you have a private message? with Merlyn?

[Afrayed Knott]

All I'm going to say about any of that is don't use the "l" word here, Knott, it's against the rules. It's a lim or elimination.

?

[Afrayed Knott]

ahhh ok got it it is a small l not a big L

[Afrayed Knott]

wow... read it all and answer the question please

I did. You dismissed it with:

whatever,, scum Comet..

so you can't answer it because I called you scum?

[Afrayed Knott]

Maybe take a step back from the keyboard for a bit

ok

[Afrayed Knott]

Merlyn, why does it advantage you to support me. I mean I am ready to lim you? and yet in my eyes you have not provide a counter to Tim that is believable.

Ok so lets consider you are town and you flip town.. who do you think we should target, or is it too late for town?

[Afrayed Knott]

Guys... what do you want me to do here? Like seriously?

be honest

[Afrayed Knott]

@Comet... lets put all our animosity to one side and start again.

why should I believe you are town?

[Afrayed Knott]

I'm willing to listen

[Afrayed Knott]

yeap.. what questions have I ignored?

[Afrayed Knott]

list them I shall reply

But is it conducive to actually winning the game?

[Afrayed Knott]

In post 1234, Cometbright wrote:
I think this is a bit of an unfair interpretation. My main sticking points against you have been for reasons not involved with you scumreading me. For example, how does me pushing you on putting people to E-1 have anything to do with OMGUS? I wasn't the one being put to E-1.

because I have put them there without telling everyone that I was.. and I had no idea it was, 1, a thing and 2. in your eyes, incorrect,

Do you really think voting outside of Merlyn/Timmer to get me to 'take a Valium' is at all productive/sensible? Genuinely curious here.

hmmm this is me being flippant as I have had enough of your tunnel vision. so I rescind the Valium comment,

You are genuinely considering an alternative lim on me today here?

tomorrow

Do you think there might be an alternative reason? Such as #1204 when I realise that Merlyn clearing you as town means that you literally cannot be in a scumteam with Timmer?

OK

You think me asking the pair involved in a 1v1 who they think the other scum is might be scummy?

No I say it could ne town or it could not be town

I'm curious then. You think I'm scum because I'm OMGUS-ing you. What reasons do you have for pushing/voting me that aren't related to my own past pushes on you?

No I genuinely feel you could actually be Merlyn's partner

I mean if I had actually been pushing you like I had been Day 1/Day 2 then on sooome level I could expect push-back courtesy of OMGUS but the weird thing is I haven't even been pushing you today. I've said as much at the start of the day that I'm not voting outside of Merlyn/Timmer and the times you've came up today I've been actually saying you were the less likely scum. I don't understand what the town!Knott perspective here is at all... why actively try to push/vote me (and even inquire about executing me over the 1v1) here?

I'm not seeing that, but then that might be subjective

He's the only other person currently present so yes, I'm going to talk to him?

let's talk, but THAT is not a question, is it

[Afrayed Knott]

But is it conducive to actually winning the game?

Do you think pursuing this wagon on me today has helped the game?

tomorrow

[Afrayed Knott]

For what it's worth I'm fairly certain I answered your questions - as hard as it was to distinguish between questions and you slinging accusations. If you can list any that I didn't answer then I'll answer them too.

accept or not accept.. you are my focus tomorrow once we flip scum Merlyn.

one question you have yet to answer

why should I believe you are town?

[Afrayed Knott]

f you flip me town loses, that's the end of the game. I'm not in scum team's mind, I don't know what led to the fakeclaim. I only know my own stuff and that means that Timmer is scum.

oh come on.. Timmer laid it all down quiet clearly... the set up works in his explanation, there is no counter claim to refute what you are saying, so just role red and be done with it. why we are even delaying this is painful

[Afrayed Knott]

No I genuinely feel you could actually be Merlyn's partner
Are you going to elaborate more...? I can't really defend/respond without your actual reasons.

then do so

[Afrayed Knott]

I'll rephrase - you think me asking Dann about what he said in #1241 was me trying to pocket him? As opposed to asking him because he was actively present in the thread?

yeap