You hate to see someone slip on an old alt like that, fufufu~ (¬‿¬)In post 11, absinthe wrote:Whoops!In post 10, fferyllt wrote:I'm pretty confident in my ability to townread town and to be transparent as town.
What are your strengths and weaknesses that drive your preferences?
Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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Well, that would be nice in theory, but in practice it's incredibly unlikely, and trying for a day 1 win in this way feels like a fool's errand.In post 33, Anastasia wrote:I read the setup briefly and it seems if we get all of the bad people to sign up for the same location we shall win immediately.
Seeing as they are probably not so stupid as to do that, perhaps we should try quickly putting all the good people into two locations and then the bad people will be stuck going to the last location?
In practical terms, I think the best strategy is this: we should aim to put our strongest townreads at the keep. That game is the easiest to win, and we're more likely to be able to identify correct townreads in this phase of the game than identifying all the mafia. If we give ourselves the best chances of winning that game, we give ourselves a 1 point lead, and the rest of the games become easier.-
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WHY
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Do you assume you're going to be townread enough to be voted there? I don't understand the mindset.
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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Okay, thoughts readswise:
I like unwnd's early energy
I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town
I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now
No particular scum pings yet-
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Why do you think that? Why would you not wait to see if other people are okay with it?In post 180, Briar wrote:
Yes LMAO.In post 175, catboi wrote:Do you assume you're going to be townread enough to be voted there? I don't understand the mindset.
What do you make of that?-
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EBWOP: I meant keep, not wall. I completely mixed up in my mind which location is which.In post 193, catboi wrote:Okay, thoughts readswise:
I like unwnd's early energy
I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town
I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now
No particular scum pings yet-
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Hmm, okay. I don't really understand this mindset at all but it'd be an unusually gutsy play for scum.In post 201, Briar wrote:
Why should I care about what other people think in the moment? Like, if people don't think that I'm towny enough there are two other slots that they can assign to other people and vote them instead, and I'll vote whoever I think is town of those two if no one wants me. I'm just hamstringing myself if I'm scum by putting the pressure on myself to compete with them but that isn't the case this game, so /shrug. It's a bit shitty of me to not care if other people agreeIn post 196, catboi wrote:Why do you think that? Why would you not wait to see if other people are okay with it?nowbut they will in time.-
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Oh? What for? (´~ヾ)In post 214, Infinity 324 wrote:
I think I've given most of my relevant thoughts so far, although they've been out of sync with the game because I've been posting in between board game turns. I do get some townvibes from lukewarm and some non-townvibes from catboi igIn post 210, Briar wrote:Infinity what's on your mind!!
What's your read on absinthe?-
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Eh, I'm too lazy to be whimsical tonight. Not gonna lie, I felt a bit of pressure to immediately get into the thick of it because of how fast things were moving.In post 225, Infinity 324 wrote:In post 193, catboi wrote:Okay, thoughts readswise:
I like unwnd's early energy
I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town
I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now
No particular scum pings yet
These posts felt a bit careful? Trying to look town? The opposite of whismical? Idk, it's pretty weak anyway.In post 205, catboi wrote:
Hmm, okay. I don't really understand this mindset at all but it'd be an unusually gutsy play for scum.In post 201, Briar wrote:
Why should I care about what other people think in the moment? Like, if people don't think that I'm towny enough there are two other slots that they can assign to other people and vote them instead, and I'll vote whoever I think is town of those two if no one wants me. I'm just hamstringing myself if I'm scum by putting the pressure on myself to compete with them but that isn't the case this game, so /shrug. It's a bit shitty of me to not care if other people agreeIn post 196, catboi wrote:Why do you think that? Why would you not wait to see if other people are okay with it?nowbut they will in time.-
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Okay, this post helps clear things up for me and puts it in simple terms, I actually like the logic hereIn post 229, Anastasia wrote:
It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.In post 226, unwnd wrote:I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'
I wish to just let be things how they are for right now
Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.
She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep.
I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.-
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I mean, I think given prior exxperience I'm less likely to make the same mistakes. But I think your whole process of self-examination and trying to figure which location would be the most helpful for town to be at felt very pure. The way it evolved in-thread felt like it was coming from genuine thinking. I don't know how you'd play as scum given IRL experience, but most newbie scum players tend to just hang in the background and hope to not get noticed, and your play so far has been more forward than that.In post 234, Lukewarm wrote:
Not sure how to feel about this, because last game you scum read every post I made all the way up to MeLo.In post 193, catboi wrote:Okay, thoughts readswise:
I like unwnd's early energy
I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town
I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now
No particular scum pings yet
Wait let me double check my notes here
Spoiler:
Yeah, I do already know how to respond to this.
really I just don't want to be in the same location as you, no hard feelings I swear~ (jkjk)-
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...why?In post 249, Anastasia wrote:
I like thisIn post 247, Dunnstral wrote:Don't forget that mafia can perform a swap-
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I see, so your comment was more about potential discomfort with the ease of him giving the read, based on his personality, rather than the actual substance of the read?In post 253, absinthe wrote:
I answered this directly to Dunn.In post 243, catboi wrote:absinthe - in 54 you said you were cautiously optimistic about unwnd's alignment, but in 120 you suggested Dunn saying he "feels" town is "a little premature". What's the difference there, exactly?
Dunn and I went back and forth for much of the Warehouse 13 Day 1 about which early-early townreads on me he was calling weird and why, among other things. He thought the townreads on my hydra with Nacho were incautious and unwarranted.In post 191, absinthe wrote:
That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.In post 150, Dunnstral wrote:
Why would it be?In post 120, absinthe wrote:
Sure this isn't a little premature?In post 108, Dunnstral wrote:Unwnd feels town to me
It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.
Mostly I was heckling him, but I do wonder about the ease of that read.-
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I think...the mindset here is a town solving mindset.In post 254, absinthe wrote:
You think this is accurate?In post 233, catboi wrote:
Okay, this post helps clear things up for me and puts it in simple terms, I actually like the logic hereIn post 229, Anastasia wrote:
It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.In post 226, unwnd wrote:I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'
I wish to just let be things how they are for right now
Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.
She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep.
I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.-
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I don't think he's a very wordy player regardless of alignment. A post like that is just filler to me.In post 258, Anastasia wrote:
I think it would have more meaningless mech attached if he wanted to make it look wordy for towncred.In post 252, Something_Smart wrote:How would one say that with said undertones?-
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I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.In post 300, absinthe wrote:What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?
I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.-
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I don't understand what "polarized" is supposed to meanIn post 301, unwnd wrote:I don't think this PList is one that is full of numbskulls. I am enjoying the nuance of the conversations but don't want to just make this about winning arguments. Catboi came in and felt very polarized by the thread, and I imagine that behavior will be similar to any potential scum who are just idly sitting by. Infinity also proclaimed that catboi had an awkwardness to him and if I'm not wrong she kept it to herself because it seemed like it was just being swallowed in the greater battle going on.-
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Well, I think people should cooperate and collaborate and would have said so if I'd been here at the start. Is there some point you're trying to make?In post 308, absinthe wrote:
As Briar and unwnd have demonstrated, for the most part there's no "putting" townreads or scumreads anywhere, unless they buy in.In post 305, catboi wrote:
I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.In post 300, absinthe wrote:What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?
I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.-
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I wasn't trying to stay out of it, it was merely that I had a hard time grasping what the substance of the argument was actually about in my initial reading. The words seemed to quickly lose meaning. Anastasia's post about your response to absinthe brought some clarity in that regard, and I felt like it was notable your response to absinthe early was fairly casual - not to suggest that you should be inherently distrustful of her, but there seemed to be something of a lack of inquisitiveness into what she was saying.In post 310, unwnd wrote:
Your comments to me implied you weren't going to involve yourself with what was going on prior and instead talk around it, as suggested by you feeling it was a headache lolIn post 306, catboi wrote:
I don't understand what "polarized" is supposed to meanIn post 301, unwnd wrote:I don't think this PList is one that is full of numbskulls. I am enjoying the nuance of the conversations but don't want to just make this about winning arguments. Catboi came in and felt very polarized by the thread, and I imagine that behavior will be similar to any potential scum who are just idly sitting by. Infinity also proclaimed that catboi had an awkwardness to him and if I'm not wrong she kept it to herself because it seemed like it was just being swallowed in the greater battle going on.-
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I had mostly felt the attitude in the post I highlighted was a towny one. Granted, the one game I played with her she was scum and my reading of her posts was "fine" for the most part and I only really caught her in connection with her partners, so I plan to be judicious with that read rather than taking it for granted, but for early in the game it's a start.In post 318, unwnd wrote:
As strange as it sounds I actually had a pretty hard time grasping it myself. I feel my behavior is becoming a bit exhaustive. I wouldn't lie that it's not making me a bit self-conscious but I'm powering through that feeling because I do still have a lot of energy. Breaks and not just exasperating yourself with constant mafia games can do that, I guess. It's aside the point. I noted that you were TRing Infinity despite her own disapproval of your posts. Do you still hold to that despite her lack of presence?In post 311, catboi wrote:
I wasn't trying to stay out of it, it was merely that I had a hard time grasping what the substance of the argument was actually about in my initial reading. The words seemed to quickly lose meaning. Anastasia's post about your response to absinthe brought some clarity in that regard, and I felt like it was notable your response to absinthe early was fairly casual - not to suggest that you should be inherently distrustful of her, but there seemed to be something of a lack of inquisitiveness into what she was saying.In post 310, unwnd wrote:
Your comments to me implied you weren't going to involve yourself with what was going on prior and instead talk around it, as suggested by you feeling it was a headache lolIn post 306, catboi wrote:
I don't understand what "polarized" is supposed to meanIn post 301, unwnd wrote:I don't think this PList is one that is full of numbskulls. I am enjoying the nuance of the conversations but don't want to just make this about winning arguments. Catboi came in and felt very polarized by the thread, and I imagine that behavior will be similar to any potential scum who are just idly sitting by. Infinity also proclaimed that catboi had an awkwardness to him and if I'm not wrong she kept it to herself because it seemed like it was just being swallowed in the greater battle going on.
Why would you expect me to retract a read just because she disliked some of my posts? I don't townread people based on reciprocity.
You also seem to have sidestepped the point from Anastasia I was reiterating. Why did you take absinthe's confidence in "being transparent" at face value? It felt a bit too trusting.-
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I suppose you can try, but I'm not sure how useful it's likely to be. But I'm a little bit fatalistic about the idea of trying to corral scumreads in this phase. I suppose it can't hurt to try?In post 323, Lukewarm wrote:
I don't know that I agree that it only matters where we put out top town reads. I was thinking about how we can organize the groups, and if we put our collective top scum reads in the same area, we can analyze the mafia switch.In post 305, catboi wrote:
I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.In post 300, absinthe wrote:What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?
I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.
I don't know how it is best to distribute the scum reads, like should we pick out our top 3, or just put our top 2 in the same area, and I'm still thinking about which area would be best to do this experiment. Would love for us to talk about this lol
But basically, I don't like the idea
In post 305, catboi wrote: I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others.-
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This seems almost totally disconnected from what I was actually saying and I'm not sure how to respond to it. I wasn't asking about you not prodding at infinity so I'm not sure why you volunteered that information. You seem to be vaguely suggesting some disagreement with my gutread but not in a particularly coherent way.In post 327, unwnd wrote:For me her behavior feels more telling the more it goes on. Her posts were very tangible but I don't know if there was much to process. Now is this an effect because of the..other stuff going on? I don't know. Point is you're here and responding and infinity has proclaimed even from the first post that's she's a bit burnt out. I'm not going to prod at her in the same way I would you.
For me (outside of yourself) I think scum commonly in-thread don't really want to engage an argument if they don't have to. They want to slip a 'oh well I'm not a bad guy' and be all silver tongued. The action of just going 'well meh you're still town' just felt off to me.
As for why I ignored your comment on Absin-- It's because I talked enough about it. You have 50 something posts to go through if you want.
I asked Infinity why she had scumpings on me, I explained myself, I moved on. I don't have any interset in drawing out that interaction because she said the read wasn't strong and I don't feel like arguing endlessly with someone that I am town (some people in this game clearly feel different). Why would you expect me to continue to dig in there? Why would you expect it to affect my read? This doesn't make sense.
This is very strange to me - I came in, said your interactions with Anastasia were a headache, and you seemed to shade me on this, and then when I questioned you about this and actually asked something about it, you run away and say you don't want to talk about it. What's up with that? You can't give me flak for ignoring something then say you don't want to talk about it.-
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Personally if I were scum I'd be trying to throw doubt onto the two townreads already at the keepIn post 756, Dunnstral wrote:
It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as townIn post 755, unwnd wrote:
What the hell is this bravado manIn post 753, Dunnstral wrote:
And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?In post 750, Infinity 324 wrote:
It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.In post 744, Dunnstral wrote:
Go onIn post 742, Infinity 324 wrote:
I'd treat this as a scumclaimIn post 739, Dunnstral wrote:If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep-
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I've half a mind to just jump to the gate right now - I actually didn't mind lukewarm's suggestion earlier that I be the third at the keep, because I don't see scum motivation in Anastasia's play and although briar's play didn't make a ton of sense to me I feel as though she's threadspewed from the townreads on her, but, selfishly, I want to stay in the game longer and I think the keep should be resolved first. I feel like I'm able to play better after flips are on the table.-
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In terms of generalised strategy or particular people?In post 819, absinthe wrote:I'd really like to see something about how you'd like to see the minigames set up today.
That seemed to be exactly the argument you were making. You expressed doubt that both were town, yes? My issue is that your reasoning was a fallacious gamestate read that presumes scum are going to act in a specific manner when doing so isn't terribly beneficial to them.In post 822, Dunnstral wrote:If you guys still think I'm throwing doubt at the players already in the keep you don't fundamentally understand what I'm arguing
Her response didn't give me anything to work with. I'm not sure why you would have this expectation of me after a couple of games when as best as I can recall there is no reason you should have that impression, when if anything my play with you when I was town was decidedly lazy and as scum I was a bit tryhard - it doesn't make sense to me.In post 821, unwnd wrote:
Re: Infinity, It became what I disliked about you and I turned the conversation on it's head. You seem to be against that however. My point was that I don't the way you resolved it by just going 'yeah you're town' bothered me. I think this about 2(?) games we've played together by now and I'd expect to have more curiosity instead of just calling it right there. You had Infinity's attention and you just..dropped it. Why? From my own end I shut down the talk about Ana because it's been talked about enough. I assume you have a decent amount of catchup to go through so I'll try not to stifle you before I combat you furtherIn post 806, catboi wrote:
This seems almost totally disconnected from what I was actually saying and I'm not sure how to respond to it. I wasn't asking about you not prodding at infinity so I'm not sure why you volunteered that information. You seem to be vaguely suggesting some disagreement with my gutread but not in a particularly coherent way.In post 327, unwnd wrote:For me her behavior feels more telling the more it goes on. Her posts were very tangible but I don't know if there was much to process. Now is this an effect because of the..other stuff going on? I don't know. Point is you're here and responding and infinity has proclaimed even from the first post that's she's a bit burnt out. I'm not going to prod at her in the same way I would you.
For me (outside of yourself) I think scum commonly in-thread don't really want to engage an argument if they don't have to. They want to slip a 'oh well I'm not a bad guy' and be all silver tongued. The action of just going 'well meh you're still town' just felt off to me.
As for why I ignored your comment on Absin-- It's because I talked enough about it. You have 50 something posts to go through if you want.
I asked Infinity why she had scumpings on me, I explained myself, I moved on. I don't have any interset in drawing out that interaction because she said the read wasn't strong and I don't feel like arguing endlessly with someone that I am town (some people in this game clearly feel different). Why would you expect me to continue to dig in there? Why would you expect it to affect my read? This doesn't make sense.
This is very strange to me - I came in, said your interactions with Anastasia were a headache, and you seemed to shade me on this, and then when I questioned you about this and actually asked something about it, you run away and say you don't want to talk about it. What's up with that? You can't give me flak for ignoring something then say you don't want to talk about it.
You feel like you're being evasive in response to questioning and trying to cut discussion off. I don't like it.-
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Hmm, my feeling was that I was content to slot townreads in the keep and then to let the chips fall where they may - I felt like there wasn't a lot of point in trying to micromanage everyone and I felt like letting peopl decide on their own might be more revealing. It's easy for scum to simply defer their decision to others and thereby abdicate responsibility for their actions, whereas here they'd have to justify it. Having read a lot of the arguments about straegy on the previous pages, I would agree that putting multiple scumreads in one location seems preferable - although trying to force a 3/3 is impossible, any potential swap is valuable in terms of the information it provides. As thngs stand now though, unwnd is feeling a bit...cornered in his responses. I don't mind ana's suggested groupings although I'd probably swap in dunn at the wall in place of something_smart. I'm fine with either you or Luke being at the keep.In post 839, absinthe wrote:
either.In post 838, catboi wrote:In terms of generalised strategy or particular people?
both.
any.
talk to me.-
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I'm sorry! I went to watch something rather than typing a response right away. o(_ _;o)In post 848, absinthe wrote:catboi.-
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In fact, I feel like I should live my own words - after spending several hours reading and catching up, I felt a significant part of the discussion had devolved into strategic minutiae and awkward jockeying for position and I feel the productiveness of such discussion is limited. It's very easy to get lost in the weeds of such arguments and they cease to be particularly illuminating. I think actions speak louder and I want less idle shuffling of the feet.
VOTE: Gate-
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Why would I care what you have to say?In post 868, unwnd wrote:
I'm a little annoyed by this post, because it seems like I'm not being heard despite being dangerously close to the one of the top postersIn post 855, catboi wrote:In fact, I feel like I should live my own words - after spending several hours reading and catching up, I felt a significant part of the discussion had devolved into strategic minutiae and awkward jockeying for position and I feel the productiveness of such discussion is limited. It's very easy to get lost in the weeds of such arguments and they cease to be particularly illuminating. I think actions speak louder and I want less idle shuffling of the feet.
VOTE: Gate-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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That was the start of it but I think the way you've responded to me and your input into the thread has given me no reason to think you're town; I think you were twisting yourself into logical pretzels trying to justify yourself to anastasia and while you were seemingly hinting at not townreading me your response to my making move last night didn't look like that.In post 876, unwnd wrote:When I speak about outcomes it's definitely more on the side of the argumentative process? I put a lot of thought into what I want to say and even so far as Briar described it earlier as 'Diplomatic.' I don't think you're the only one who isn't understanding me so my own admitting of defeat is just
Resetting and see what comes of it. When it comes to the other aspect of 'responding to things naturally' that's just me saying I exaggerate sometimes. I wasn't being entirely genuine when it came to Ana for example because I thought maybe I could illcit a response out of her that would give me a better read. My initial dislike was absolutely true, but I should've just backed away and let the thread progress
I wanted to clarify this because I think the basis of catboi's read on me (from what I can determine) is this action and previous ones, so we're just not understanding each other, I'd like to fix that. The same goes with you-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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hm
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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I thought something_smart was town
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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I tried looking back at your iso and couldn't find an explanationIn post 1031, Dunnstral wrote:
We've went over this. I'm now at the phase where I'm ready to push everyone who keeps bringing this up as I believe it's a scum tell to tunnel in on that aspectIn post 1029, catboi wrote:but I thought you thought scum was at the keep?-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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Can you explain why? You kept saying you thought I might be scum yesterday but it never really went beyond "not towny enough" and "reacted to me moving funny"In post 1038, Briar wrote:I'm going to reread catboi/S_S, because I had it the other way around versus Ana yesterday and with the switch happening as it did I feel even more confident in like... trying to collaborate and listen.-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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I don't understand whaat you mean. By "challenge you" do you mean go to the keep myself? Because I didn't think you were automatically scum for it, I just didn't understand wat you were doing and was...a little frustrated I guess because I'd had a plan for how I wanted to do things and you disrupted it before I had a chance to post. So everything in my reaction after was trying to understand why you did it because I wasn'tgoing to assume you wer town, I wanted to question you to figure out if what you were doing made sense. And ultimately I concluded that I didn't see scum motivation in your play. But it feels like you're hung up on the severity of that initial reaction and, uh, maybe a little upset by it and looking at things objectively? Because I have no idea how you'd categorize me as "less memorable" than something_smart, really.In post 1058, Briar wrote:
Mmm. I really just didn't like the way you responded to how I was behaving, honestly? It doesn't make sense to me for you to have that sort of reaction -- like, I dunno, you can just... challenge me yourself if you're town? Like, it felt emotionally out of place more than anything, disconnected from what you could have done. And in general I'm gonna be real, I can't remember much else you did beyond that but that's generally a sign to me that scum is like, either failing to keep up or is making content up that's passable.In post 1049, catboi wrote:
Can you explain why? You kept saying you thought I might be scum yesterday but it never really went beyond "not towny enough" and "reacted to me moving funny"In post 1038, Briar wrote:I'm going to reread catboi/S_S, because I had it the other way around versus Ana yesterday and with the switch happening as it did I feel even more confident in like... trying to collaborate and listen.
But, knowing that you are a good scum player, I think I should give you some benefit that you could do more than passable; in the moment, my read is also somewhat anchored on the fact that you're fighting S_S who I thought was town yesterday which makes me wanna hunker down and just throw you out right now.
And, uh, thank for the compliment but I don't think I'mthatgood considering my recent games. (also this narrows your identity down to a few people but none of them seem to quite fit >_>)-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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keep > gate > wall, descending order of best odds.In post 1095, unwnd wrote:
Alright so popcornIn post 1089, Marashu wrote:In post 1083, unwnd wrote:@Mod
Does the thread lock if a minigame is hammered? Or do we just keep goingI'll lock the thread very briefly to resolve the hammer, then discussion can continue.
I want to hear people which group should be flipped first
Although if we wanna get fancy we do keep > IC calls for a crossvote at the wall > then we can choose either gate or wall-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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I mean the thing is I'm way more likely to have a restrained reaction in that situation as scum, I don't let my real feelings leak out into the game because that gets me judged. Flipping out at a townie establishing themselves as town only ends up reflecting poorly on me. Like if I were scum I'd probably come in, question you coolly, and then just gradually turn up the heat and start undermining you. But my goal isn't to do that, it's to solve whether you are town and I feel like that was reflected in my approach, I wasn't coming at you with a predetermined conclusion. In general I have a harder time keeping my emotions in check as town, it's not good thing but it just tends to happen with me.In post 1103, Briar wrote:Okay, so, for me I scumread that frustration; my assumption was that it was more the sort of frustration that comes from scum who's pissed off frankly that town has jumped the gun and has suddenly limited the options for scum to weasel in. This also compounded with the fact that I believe you were later to get into things, even just by a little bit, and lost an important moment that comes with the very beginning of games.
I wasn't upset by it and I don't think I'm hung up; frankly it was the scummiest thing that I could recall from D1. I was townreading Ana/absinthe hard, Luke/Unwnd/S_S to varying degrees, leaving you/Dunn/Infinity as the three and with you having the singular Thing that was like, the worst to me. Maybe I was being too harsh on that when it was happening because it was easy to latch onto, but I dunno. I want to believe that maybe somehow I am a good player and can get things right with my reads sometimes.
S_S was rather active mechanically, and I remembered that. Like, it made an impact on me. Maybe it was being recent that sort of... blurred my memory of you, but right now I'm trying to figure out between you two and I'm willing to take a step away from my read from yesterday.
What do you think about the Wall right now? Who would you vote out?
(And hehe.)
From everything I understand of something_smart, him being active mechanically is completely and utterly NAI. Why would you treat it as a towntell?
Right now as a GTH answer I'd say unwnd at the wall based on my gut feelings from day 1 but that's not a super confident read.-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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I mean, I can think of some good reasons:In post 1124, Something_Smart wrote:How's this for a towntell
If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.
Compare with:In post 847, absinthe wrote:Although I'm not seeing the stuff I noticed about his scum game when I meta'd him a few months ago, I'm also not seeing some of the stuff I associate with his towngame.
Maybe my glasses need adjustment.
In post 704, absinthe wrote:
Re the bolded what makes the way he's doing it +scum? How does it vary from his townplay?In post 532, Infinity 324 wrote:
I think you're probably approaching reading s_s not great, though he's still leaning scum for me atm. Like, he loves to talk about things in a vacuum and not come to firm conclusions,In post 480, Anastasia wrote:
I think you are stuck in a weird place where you can't decide whether you want to shade me as bold genius scum gambitter or bad town tunnel reader and it makes you sound funnyIn post 473, Something_Smart wrote:
I think it's pretty silly to have a value judgement on play that is only determined after the game is over. We want to know now what's good and what isn't; so I think that it is bad play to commit yourself to a read like that, even if the read turns out to be right in the end.In post 470, Anastasia wrote:only if my reads are wrong
since I think you are scummy it makes me feel I'm on the right track with this briar/absinthe planthough the way he's doing it here I feel is +scum for him.
Also, you've repeatedly said that you're not motivated enough to obvtown this game.
What's dampening your motivation?In post 965, absinthe wrote:In post 601, Infinity 324 wrote:Honestly I feel pretty good about my TRs on briar and ana, which means I think I like putting someone I also TR strongly at the keep. Absinthe would not be that player for me, but I do feel better about her than I did before.
The chances of any specific group of 3 being town is about 18% if I did my math right, which seems like something that's reasonable to try and go for. I also feel like it's reasonable to try and go for putting 2 scum in the same group (probably the wall) if we can. Then the gate could contain some null reads. Thoughts?
Infinity, your read of me changes. Your strategy for how to stack the keep changes, and all of the changes seem to come down to the same answer for you.In post 947, Infinity 324 wrote:I'm having difficulty engaging readswise and my reads feel pretty stagnant though I feel like some are wrong. (To summarize, that's unwnd, absinthe, ana, luke and briar as town, dunn as null, and s_s and catboi as scumleans).
So let me try to work through the mechanics at least. If we try to put a third townread at the keep, we have a decent chance of putting 3 town in there. Say it's ana, briar, and absinthe. If we succeed, the best swap scum can do is probably putting one of those 3 into the gate. Ideally we'd put 2 scum in the wall if that's the case, which lets us have an extra townie in the wall and some WIFOM info about who we think scum would swap. I think I've talked myself into wanting a scummy player in the keep though, because if we have 3 town in the keep and 2 scum at the gate it's not great for us anyway. Especially since I TR unwnd and they're already at the wall.-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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That feels like your fault tbhIn post 1138, unwnd wrote:You're wrong about me and a lot of things between us feel unresolved in general-
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Okay this was way less useful than I was hoping it'd be
In post 269, Something_Smart wrote:My point is that your townread on Dunnstral is nonsense and he would say the same thing regardless of alignment, but that's not why I was pressing you... I wanted to understand your thought process to see if I thought it was genuine.In post 748, Something_Smart wrote:
You would scumclaim and force the optimal move onto town?In post 739, Dunnstral wrote:If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the KeepIn post 770, Something_Smart wrote:
No but if we have two consensus town in the Keep then we don't care at all about the third slot. And if someone did scumclaim into it then there'd be no point in swapping one of them out since it's a guaranteed town win anyway.In post 759, Dunnstral wrote:Did you forget about the swap mechanic?In post 790, Something_Smart wrote:
In all honesty though this is silly and you should know it. I considered the merits of that play because Dunn brought it up. It's not like my response was instantaneous.In post 772, Anastasia wrote:I feel like this is coming from a scum!SS who has already considered the move that Dunnstral is proposing and decided it's not a good play to make.
This is basically nothing. If I wanted to stretch I could see the first quote as partnery but I feel like that's straining credulity to get there and in this case it's better to just admit I have no conclusion rather than forcing a read.In post 1025, Something_Smart wrote:Dunn can you explain why you went Wall without consulting anyone?
In post 435, Something_Smart wrote:
To an extent. Scum will have either 6 or 15 options for who to swap; either way, which swap is optimal will depend almost entirely on how people are being read. The less they know about that, the more likely they are to make a suboptimal swap-- and the swap matters a huge deal.In post 411, Briar wrote:You think so?
Probably moderately +scum because giving up control is pretty much always +town here, but not very much so. (Incidentally: this means Lukewarm's reaction is towny.)How do you feel about what Ana did just now?In post 545, Something_Smart wrote:
We definitely should not be saying which of the two we'd rather elect.In post 544, Lukewarm wrote:Are people comfortable with Briar as the main vote, and Ana as the back up?In post 977, Something_Smart wrote:
I thought he explained his point pretty well?In post 975, Lukewarm wrote:So I pushed him to explain, and he backed down with "people just are not understanding my point" and even though I came back with "my entire goal right now is understanding your point, please explain" he never did. If a town player really thought we were potentially setting the keep up for an auto-lose situation, then I have to believe they would have pressed more to get the thread to understand the point he was making.
This is basically nothing. On sheerIn post 1113, Something_Smart wrote:
HmIn post 193, catboi wrote:I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right nowlackof interaction it's suspect but Lukewarm was the only person of the three he really committed to any read on and most scum are reluctant to outright townread their parter.
In post 50, Something_Smart wrote:
Sending hard-to-read people to the Gate is probably a good idea, yeah.In post 42, unwnd wrote:After some careful thought I think using Gate is the best null/trashpile, mostly because if we're wrong on a base assumption we can clear a wrong read or confirm an unknownIn post 656, Something_Smart wrote:
Well the alternative is not having a plan, so no.In post 655, unwnd wrote:Don't you think that giving scum a blueprint of our plans is a bit unwise?
The only concrete plans we've been talking about are ones involving the Keep; these may have been mistakes to bring up, but it's too late to do anything about it at this point.In post 663, Something_Smart wrote:
well if she's an influential player and likely town, then it matters more that she not be wrong, no?In post 658, unwnd wrote:why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?In post 722, Something_Smart wrote:
or, get this: you don't, and then the scum probably rule it out via swaps. and if they don't, then we've seriously narrowed the amount of possible swaps available to them.In post 720, Anastasia wrote:I'd like to take a shot on infinity-ss-unwnd as the scum team because I am a naive dreamer.In post 787, Something_Smart wrote:
I feel like this is coming from scum!Anastasia who knows that the solve is wrong and wants to set up an unwinnable WallIn post 772, Anastasia wrote:Yes I'm horribly confbiased - but that's kind of why I want the ss-infy-unwnd team to snap me out of it if I'm wrong <3
Look I can make stupid theories tooIn post 951, Something_Smart wrote:Infinity, remind me why you have unwnd as town?In post 962, Something_Smart wrote:
I just looked back through unwnd's ISO and I really don't see that much that seems to be sorting Ana at all, let along in a genuine way. Can you point to some posts that made you feel this way?In post 952, Infinity 324 wrote:I felt like his play around ana has been quite towny, it feels like a genuine attempt to try to sort her through what seems like a layer of fog to him.
I actually think 663 is a mildly non-partnery interaction but the way he bristles at anastasia suggesting the team is pinging me hard - it's like when my team in FL vs Hectic got called out on like the first page and I got put on the defensive hard. It's not a lot but it does feel notable that this is one of the only moments that evoked a passionate response from him.-
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catboi Jack of All Trades
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Even if I said I am nya~t mafia? :<In post 1161, Briar wrote:
You won't charm me, fiend.In post 1160, catboi wrote:I'm gonna do that ISO thing rather than keep begging senpai (Briar) to notice (townread) me-
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In post 544, Lukewarm wrote:
I think I agree. We only need two in there, 1 as the main vote choice, and 1 as the back-up in case the main vote is swapped out.In post 540, Something_Smart wrote:
Putting 3 towny players in the Keep seems like a massive wasteIn post 533, absinthe wrote:I'm ok with going to the Keep.
Are people comfortable with Briar as the main vote, and Ana as the back up? if so, we could leave the third slot for the "left over" player.
So I guess the question is really, does anyone scum read Briar or Ana?
Second quote would be fairly bold for a new scum player to say in response to a partner.In post 632, Lukewarm wrote:
I think that this thought process is the one I most vibe with on a cursory read through.In post 630, Something_Smart wrote:
I kind of answered that here:In post 623, Anastasia wrote:so my question to you is what is optimal then?
I'm not vehemently opposed to Infinity's idea, but I feel like I would prefer this: 2 townreads + 1 nullread at the Keep, any remaining strong townreads at the Wall, then fill out the Wall with the scummiest players and put the rest at the Gate.In post 620, Something_Smart wrote:I think the bottom line is that we want the Gate to have all the scummiest players after the swap (I THINK? I may try to math this out honestly because it's a costly thing to get wrong), and we want the Keep to have exactly one towny player after the swap. It's not totally clear what the best way to achieve that is, or even if there is a good way.
The reasoning being: you need exactly 2 known townies to guarantee victory at the Keep. The third is superfluous, and we might as well put a hard-to-read player there instead. Putting a known townie at the Gate meanwhile makes it trivial for the scum to give us no information with the IC reveal. (At least make them work, if they want to do that.) So, we put other townreads at the Wall. Then, we don't want to stuff the Gate with scummy people because that gives scum more control over who gets IC'd, so we put the other scummy people at the Wall (which we would be happy to turn into a 50/50 since it's the hardest minigame) and the rest at the Gate.-
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In post 439, unwnd wrote:It's just my gut when it comes to the situation. We could be playing a game where something like S_S/Infinity/Dunn could simply be overwhelmed by townies but I don't see the evidence in that world. I think the most likely answer is that scum is fully committed in you 3. Do you disagree?In post 642, unwnd wrote:I've held my tongue a bit when it comes to coordination around who chooses what. I briefly touched upon my own ideals and why I chose my decision, but there a few things that ping me when it comes to everyone's assumptions.
For one, S_S earlier said something along the lines of 'giving reads are bad/help scum' and I never got the chance to understand why he felt that way. I think mechanical talk turns more into an obligation instead of something we can potentially use, so I'm not really getting a good read on the people who are focusing their attention on it (S_S/Lukewarm)In post 655, unwnd wrote:I like your heady analysis in trying to make the setup more approachable for town, but I do have questions myself. Don't you think that giving scum a blueprint of our plans is a bit unwise? I think you agree with that in some regard, just differently. You think giving them information in terms of reads will make it so they can manipulate the mini-games more favorly, and see it as 1's and 0's.
This is where our ideals are parallel but not touching.In post 653, Something_Smart wrote: the more unpredictable the townies can be going into D2, the more likely it is that scum will miss a potentially winning swap and execute a losing one instead.In post 660, unwnd wrote:
Yeah I think quoted opinions are very universal, but to get there we would probably have to discuss who is obvtown and who isn'tIn post 657, Something_Smart wrote:Well actually, I guess it depends what you meant. If you meant like saying exactly who we would be voting out in different scenarios, then yeah that's unwise. But if you're just talking about general things like "we want 2 townreads at the Keep" and "we don't want any obvtown at the Gate" I think they're definitely an overall plus.In post 667, unwnd wrote:
I get this and tried to be a bit subtle about it earlier. I don't wanna dicuss anything further until a later point in time if that's alright with youIn post 663, Something_Smart wrote:
well if she's an influential player and likely town, then it matters more that she not be wrong, no?In post 658, unwnd wrote:why was it so important to you to continue to argue with her despite claiming a townread?In post 774, unwnd wrote:I would even go so far to say I like S_S's input
I'm not paying attention too hard to Infinity on the flipsideIn post 811, unwnd wrote:In post 805, Anastasia wrote:
I'm talking about my push to have SS/Infinity join you at the wall, you seem to be opposed to it.In post 801, unwnd wrote:
Because it probably doesn't happen? Scum can't be in the same minigame and if they are they have to switch them around....In post 799, Anastasia wrote:
If you think SS is town why don't you want him to join you at the Wall?In post 795, unwnd wrote:
My head says no but my heart could possibly say yesIn post 785, Anastasia wrote:Well let's start with the basics
Would you agree that ana/absin/briar is likely an all town keep group?
I'm asking you why you would be opposed to SS joining you at the wall if you think he's town?
OK I'm starting to get what you want to do but it falls completely apart knowing that I'm town lol
Like if that's what you want to happen? I'm not entirely opposed to it
Fucked that up somehowIn post 826, unwnd wrote:I don't like thinking about making that decision, because I truly want to believe it won't happen. I want to think that if my townread on S_S is correct right now that Infinity (even as scum) wouldn't just take that lying down or accept being in a 3-way of that caliberIn post 844, unwnd wrote:I think he has my best interest, or at least is very good at faking he does. GTH I would put him below Briar/S_S who are my main townreads.
439 isIn post 872, unwnd wrote:If I had to summarize myself up until this point however it'd be something like
1) Impulse voting is bad, Briar following my lead struck me but her posting has been townie
2) Ana trying to build a case on me based on expectation annoyed me, and I got obsessed with trying to explain why it was wrong
3) S_S's more grounded approach to using the setup to our benefit left me with good impressions, and his need to explain why Ana just for lack of a better term yolo'ing it is a bad idea even more soreallyinteresting.
The sequence ending in 811 (sorry for the quotewall) is what set me off in the first place, I didn't think scum would be so awkward around a partner but ultimately I see him struggling to articulate a townread on a player while simultaneously flailing tonothave that player join the same location as him, and it doesn't really make sense at all to me-
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What are the reasons I should be seeing you as town?In post 1211, unwnd wrote:
You're both scum then even if the setup literally doesn't allow thatIn post 1209, Something_Smart wrote:
Well that's only a single busIn post 1206, unwnd wrote:You and catboi both think I'm scum
I'm just a bit frustrated with the one of you that is town-
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In limited experience she ran out of steam after an ok startIn post 1213, absinthe wrote:Is infinity fairly inexperienced as scum?-
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