Open 670: Near Vanilla (Over)

[Sesq]

Well, I don't want to place an RVS vote, as it feels like people are starting to hunt, but I also really don't know who to go for. Readlist so far (even though it's only page 3):

BlueBloodedToffee - Really wanted a starting wagon to get forward for information. Seemed like he liked the wagon a *bit* too much early on, but otherwise seems to really just want to reveal everyone's cards.

Hawk - Questioning nebula pretty well, but I must ask him where the logic is in this paragraph, as I don't see the links.

You saying it's not obvious to you and then not seeing why it would be detrimental tells me you clearly understand that they draw out information.

Lil Uzi Vert - Randomly voted Music Box. I've played with him before, and this is far out of character for him. Hasn't done anything else substantial.

Lowell - Early on voted for nebula (then Hellfire, some real early stuff there). I don't think it's scum bandwagoning considering that it was early on and it was RVS shit.

Magna - Pointed out Hellfire's ban - and subsequent unban. I'll say here that I don't think this was some sort of plot, that would be way too elaborate to try and pull off, or maybe not, I haven't been in any troubles with mods here before. Besides that, nothing stands out to me.

Music Box - Voted on Hawk because his earlier vote seemed "considered", which is a really weak explanation without some backup, ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS.

nebula - This guy is interesting, to say the least. At first he looked pretty suspicious but after looking over his responses they're fairly solid. The one thing that sticks out is his inconsistencies about early wagons, which I would partially attribute to him being at the butt of it.

Toto - RVS vote, then "I'm waiting for scum to post", assuming that they think one of the inactive ones is scum. Given our current pool, I'm inclined to agree.

[Sesq]

nebula - This guy is interesting, to say the least. At first he looked pretty suspicious but after looking over his responses they're fairly solid. The one thing that sticks out is his inconsistencies about early wagons, which I would partially attribute to him being at the butt of it.

Oh, hi, Sesk. Could you point out the inconsistencies, and I can try to explain them?

I think you are town.

It's in Hawk's above post. As for them, your logic seems to be more solid but I just really have a gut feel towards you. Toto's sheep play is sort of alarming to me. I don't see why MB is scum beyond using bad logic.

[Sesq]

@Nebula you are correct that some things that aren't nesscarily detrimental aren't nesscarily positive however don't ask redundant questions when you know that there is Utility to early wagons.

Fair point, and I will concede. I should have used past tense in that statement.

Also to answer your question, The psychological component from someone being questioned versus someone being pressured and possibly lynched creates a different dynamic and reaction. That's why starting and wagon versus simply starting questioning are different and produce different results

To question this - though perhaps this may not be the place and time - I can understand the intent of the psychological component, and the potential results from reaction. However, does not the fact that the majority of the player base understanding that we are in RVS, and thus votes amounting to almost nil in terms of sincerity, negate the intended outcome?

It doesn't negate the intended outcome at all. It's different than a wagon formed via people having consistent reads but the results are still as legitimate.

[Sesq]

nebula - This guy is interesting, to say the least. At first he looked pretty suspicious but after looking over his responses they're fairly solid. The one thing that sticks out is his inconsistencies about early wagons, which I would partially attribute to him being at the butt of it.

Oh, hi, Sesk. Could you point out the inconsistencies, and I can try to explain them?

I think you are town.

It's in Hawk's above post. As for them, your logic seems to be more solid but I just really have a gut feel towards you. Toto's sheep play is sort of alarming to me. I don't see why MB is scum beyond using bad logic.

Anyone voting my townreads is getting murdered in this game. Fuck logic.

You said murdered instead of lynched.

Oops. Better fix that.

[Sesq]

Strategy for what!! All ya get is people YELLING AT YOU for having naked votes!!! The only time you should be naked is in the shower!!!

Naked votes are not naked people. Also, I disagree with being naked exclusively in the shower, unless that's just your kink. As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

[Sesq]

ONE MINUTE ISN'T ENOUGH TIME!!!

ONe MINUTE IS ENOUGH TIME. ENOUGH SAID.

Also, this rule does not apply in general. Like, I know, of course, one minute is not enough time in some situations.

But why does it apply here?

[Sesq]

Toto and Riley town.

Lil and sesq scum.

unvote

VOTE: Lil

These are the most in-depth reads of All time.

[Sesq]

Lil Uzi Vert - Randomly voted Music Box. I've played with him before, and this is far out of character for him.

Far out of character for him how? Further if it isn’t alignment indicative (which is the inference I am getting from you lack of voting) why even bring it up?

Hello again. I've played in a game with LUV before and he was very slow to place a vote down that game. I do put him on a slight scum lean, but just because I'm not voting for him doesn't mean I don't think he could be scum. It's still important to bring up I believe.

I do not plan to respond to it in its entirety, as I believe that some points will result in needless debate without resolution.

This sounds to me like you admitting you can't battle said points. My suspicions are growing.

@nebula, stop nagging me. my reads are infallible. Except in cases when they fail. Which never happens. Check my meta, I've never been wrong. Only you have, if you check my meta and find me being wrong. That's wrong.

Lil is gut. He's too safe. Sesq reads like he wants to coast and pretend to look helpful. I forget who else you asked about.

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

[Sesq]

Hi Sesq. Quite the opposite in actuality. However, as I explicitly said, MagnaofIllusion would have likely been able to articulately continued the debate; and, with no provable result, it could have dragged on causing an unnecessary distraction. Given that one of the points was entirely based on the utility of an action, and the other point was in regard to the replace out, I felt it in the best interest to be forthcoming and explain that I did not intend to debate on those two items. Fortunately, Creature was able to put one of the points to rest, which I stated and MagnaofIllusion agreed.

What I find somewhat disconcerting is that you are trying to utilize this as a vehicle to paint my actions as suspicious - of which you now indicate are growing, but have not previously indicated were established given that you thought my "responses were fairly solid." Perhaps I was too haste in my town read of you based on your willingness to engage with me yesterday.

I do agree that with this point it was kind of bunk, but your choice of vocabulary comes off as scummy. That said, it's more of a gut read at this point, which I have previously stated to be the case. In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad. But your worst part here is your last sentence, "Perhaps I was too haste in my town read of you based on your willingness to engage with me yesterday". First of all, I WAS engaging with you with that post, and with this very post as well. Engagement is also fairly NAI.

I believe Lowell has previously voted for Lil Uzi Vert, so this is probably not the argument that you wish to make.

I didn't realize that was who he had voted for prior to me. Pretty funny.

[Sesq]

I do agree that with this point it was kind of bunk, but your choice of vocabulary comes off as scummy. That said, it's more of a gut read at this point, which I have previously stated to be the case. In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad. But your worst part here is your last sentence, "Perhaps I was too haste in my town read of you based on your willingness to engage with me yesterday". First of all, I WAS engaging with you with that post, and with this very post as well. Engagement is also fairly NAI.

Hi, Sesq. Could you point to what vocabulary I used that came across as scummy? It would be helpful for me to understand that.

Also, I believe that you misinterpreted my last sentence. I was stating that I read you as town yesterday based on the fact that you engaged with me - which you now point out should not be indicative of alignment. I was stating that I may have been to haste in that read given the basis of your suspicion. I believe that to not be genuine.

VOTE: Sesq

The way in which you dismissed the ban replacement conspiracy came off as very scummy language, as if you really wanted to get rid of it to get attention off. Again, you have solid logic and that was stupid, but I can't shake this gut feel on you. I definitely wouldn't vote you for it or want anyone else to, though. I think you're accusing our former interaction of not being geniune, which I've learned is a buzzword you can apply to nearly anyone's town-looking interactions and make them look scummy for it. You need to actually back up why you think it. Also, are you saying I am your strongest scumread? You're only acting off of "ingenuity" here, which really is not a strong justification without further explanation. Given this vote and its circumstances, I can say that my read against you is not entirely gut-based.

Readslist after dinner.

[Sesq]

So for reads, Pepchoninga, VeeGee, and Frederick B Cambell have not posted at all, so, idk.

-=TOWN=-
Magna
-=WEAKTOWN=-
Hawk
-=NULL-TOWN=-
BlueBloodedToffee
Riley Cake (Also, why is articulation a scumtell? Prease exprain.)
Music Box (dont know what to make of this guy)
-=NULL=-
KainTepes - Seems to be joking, i don't even know.
Lowell
Toto - Same with these two. I really just don't know.
-=NULLSCUM=-
nebula - Vote on me with little explanation, scummy word choice, gut. I'm expecting him to fall down a bit on my ranking. PEDIT: Didn't happen yet.
Lil Uzi Vert - Play seems really odd opposed to the game I played with him when he was town. I don't know.

So my conclusion is that I have no idea what the hell to do.

UNVOTE: Toto

PEDIT: nebula has responded. I agree with you on that point though, that argument you were shooting down was really idiotic, and I've said as much. I agreed with you back then, but my concern is about how the language just seems really weirdly placed. Also, shouldn't the fact that I'm pointing out the weakness of my own argument, and not voting you at all, tell you something? Before your vote on me happened, I had stated that my read against you was entirely gut and that I wasn't going to act on it, nor should other people, so if you think I'm trying to use this as a vessel to wagon on you, you're clearly mistaken. I should have clarified in my earlier post that not genuine wasn't really a common buzzword, but that it's an accusation you can safely shoot at people and kinda look like you know what you're doing, and I'm not going to let people slip by on such a potentially (and commonly) empty justification.

[Sesq]

Hi, Sesq. I have decided not to quote your last post in its entirety due to its size. Could you provide reasoning for your town reads as you have done for your scum reads? It would be helpful.

When you address my arguments I will. "You are fucking scum" doesn't quite cut it for me.

VOTE: nebula

Also, good point about overemphasizing meta, Hawk. However his play hasn't particularly been very good regardless.

[Sesq]

You're wasting your effort on me, but I'll entertain it. I actually did, in an annoying way, clarify why you are scum. You made an opportunistic hop on to a seemingly newb slot based on admittedly bad logic. Also, never ever heard of the "genuine" thing as a buzzword. Opportunistic, yes. But not "genuine."

It's cool, though. We can still be friends.

You don't seem to understand. Before you voted me, I had said that I didn't want people to vote for you. I also already explained what I meant by genuine being a buzzword, in that it isn't, and that was bad wording.

You should know this if you read the fucking thread.

[Sesq]

Hawk and I are forming a townbloc. I think KainTepes can join. By association, Frederick is also allowed in. Whoever else wants to apply may do so via PM (don't do that btw, you'll be mod killed).

Does this mean you'll flip soon? We haven't seen anything in thread thus far.

[Sesq]

You're wasting your effort on me, but I'll entertain it. I actually did, in an annoying way, clarify why you are scum. You made an opportunistic hop on to a seemingly newb slot based on admittedly bad logic. Also, never ever heard of the "genuine" thing as a buzzword. Opportunistic, yes. But not "genuine."

It's cool, though. We can still be friends.

You don't seem to understand. Before you voted me, I had said that I didn't want people to vote for you. I also already explained what I meant by genuine being a buzzword, in that it isn't, and that was bad wording.

You should know this if you read the fucking thread.

Yes, I know. You said you didn't want people to vote me, but you included me as one of your two scum reads (fyi: there are three scum). That's weak. Very weak. It's like, you know that I will flip town if lynched, but want to keep casting shade at me so that, if lynched, you can say...oh hey guys, I didn't actually want him lynched.

Weak pushes suck. Like the vote now.

Cool cool on the buzzword thing.

p-edit

What? I'm confused.

Last post was a joke.

OK, so there's some unclear things here as to what we're referring to. Do I want you lynched now? Yes. But back then, I had very little to go off of other than some weird language, and I had originally persuaded people not to vote for you off of it. I only began actually scumreading you when you voted me for pretty bad reasons, and the readslist with you placed as null-scum came AFTER i had started seriously scumreading you. I totally want you lynched right now, otherwise I wouldn't be voting you. I might make some sort of timeline graphic to explain things if you're still confused.

[Sesq]

Oh, ok...bad joke.

So your case is OMGUS. Great. Maybe I should go back into nebbie-mode and link that wiki article for you.

Also, they are pretty great reasons. Hyuuuge.

No, it was because you voted me for shitty and illogical reasons which you failed to back up. I didn't vote for you until you said "lol u fuckin scum" in response to actual arguments. Your refusal to hear any other opinion regarding my case is astounding.

[Sesq]

But, the reason was not bad. The evolution of your read on me has been extremely opportunistic, and you waiting to vote until I voted you is the definition of OMGUS...there is literally no other argument there.

I've had a bit of wine, and it's bedtime. We can discuss more tomorrow.

Also, I am astounding. Thank you.

Also also, never said "fucking scum." That was you. I think I may have hit a nerve.

We've already debunked why my read was not "opportunistic". I was actively persuading people not to vote for you until you displayed bad logic, at which point I responded to your claims. After you refused to respond to mine, I then voted. This is not OMGUS. OMGUS is when you're like WOW U VOTED ME U SCUM THEN!!!!! And I gave you plently of room to explain yourself with.

Also,

You are f'ing scum though.

[Sesq]

Don't like this guy

VOTE: Nebbie

same,, VOTE: NEBULA

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

[Sesq]

So many small wagons achieving nothing.

VOTE: Sesq

Forget accountant: THIS is the greatest logic of all time.

Just kidding. I'm assuming this is a reaction vote given the lack of explanation here.

[Sesq]

Nah, I wanna lynch you.

In hindsight it was pretty stupid not considering that you had agreed with nebula's stuff and had nothing to add.

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

The same argument could be made about multiple players. Why specifiy LUV in this response?

He seemed to be the only person who was really fitting that role at the time. Would be glad to hear who you think also qualifies.

Can I get a VC??

Two questions.

Sesq: Where exactly where you persuading other people not to vote Nebula cause I don't see it...

@Lowell can you give me a bit more insight as to why you just seem to be Wagoning? Do you just prefer to scum hunt reactively? Also walk me through why Riley was town again?

I must have forgot to put it in my messages, but that was my intent at the time. The fact that you're actually reading strikes me as town.

Sesq, can you talk to me about why you felt the need to provide a reads-list on page 3?

It's a way for me to personally organize my thoughts and get them out in a structured manner. I have ADHD, which causes my messages to be typed in a scatterbrained sort of fashion. Sometimes I switch what grammar I use between sentences, or even mid-sentence, or leave out things entirely that I meant to post (one example above.) I don't really see why there should be a required amount of time gone by before posting reads, but they were still early on and the lack of total information shows there.

As for your toto question, I swear I remembered him saying he was sheeping someone. I guess not (or possibly it was extrapolated from his actions.)

Nope. You did softclaim. Denying it is a scumclaim.

VOTE: nebula

Where was the softclaim? You can't just say "U SOFTCLAIMED" without showing where.

VOTE: Toto

Can you explain why you're voting Toto please?

I've since voted for another person, but at the time his "waiting for scum to post" and buddying of Hawk just felt very off. In hindsight it wasn't a very well thought-out decision.

I like the reassessment of Sesq's 'reads'. It looks forced to me - like scum trying to look like they have something to contribute to the game.

I've already kind of explained the motivation for why I posted such an early readslist. It was then more for my own benefit than others'.

Also, @sesq, why do people use that avatar all over the site? Are you all alts of eachother?

I don't know. It's just a stupid joke I guess, and I don't have any active alts.

[Sesq]

Music Box - Voted on Hawk because his earlier vote seemed "considered", which is a really weak explanation without some backup, ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS.

Course it's weak. That's more or less par for the course for a p2 vote when we're still just moving out of rvs. The original rvs wagon had lost momentum due to the replacement and Hawk's avoidance of the wagon made me curious so I decided to give him a poke to see what came of it. Not sure what you mean about backup as I explained what led to the vote.

Why "ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS"? Do you expect

stronger

reasons in rvs than later?

Yeah I agree with your reply

[Sesq]

That doesn't answer my questions:

Not sure what you mean about backup as I explained what led to the vote.

Why "ESPECIALLY whilst in RVS"? Do you expect stronger reasons in rvs than later?

Can you explain what you meant by these?

I meant I agreed that the points I made were crap and that I can't even decipher what I was trying to get at.

[Sesq]

Those are pretty weak. I mean, lynching a VT is a bad lynch as well.

So is mafia... if you are one, that is.

[Sesq]

OMG YOU CAUGHT ME YES, I CONFESS!

I didn't mean "You" as in "Toto", i meant it as in "if anyone happens to be mafia, then they would say mafia is a bad lynch".

[Sesq]

He says: "You should vote Sesq,

BECAUSE I'M A BAD LYNCH

"

Not: You should vote Sesq,

BECAUSE HE IS SCUM

.

Note the difference.

Good point here, actually. Wasn't sure you had it in ya.

Jesus...you are reaching.

I'm uncomfortable with all this from Sesq. Theater, maybe?

Obvious deflect lol

And yeah, you have to explain why our interaction was fake. Don't think you can get away with a blanket statement like that, I posted a lot about how.

It feels like you can't read sometimes.

[Sesq]

I don't, actually. I'm all for people forming their own opinions. The obvious "bolding" reaction above doesn't help you though.

I can read fine. Thanks for the concern.

What exactly are you responding to?

[Sesq]

I'm all for people forming their own opinions.

Everyone: that's how scum giving up looks like.

I was feeling that vibe too.

[Sesq]

Why do you keep mentioning my meta without bothering to ask if I've changed the way I play? Also, why did you deflect here? I'm not coasting, I clearly haven't been here.

Because it's a rather radical change in a small amount of time. I was banking too hard on it, yes, but the changes are evident beyond absences. Being absent doesn't necessarily mean you aren't coasting along.

[Sesq]

Why do you keep mentioning my meta without bothering to ask if I've changed the way I play? Also, why did you deflect here? I'm not coasting, I clearly haven't been here.

Because it's a rather radical change in a small amount of time. I was banking too hard on it, yes, but the changes are evident beyond absences. Being absent doesn't necessarily mean you aren't coasting along.

That game was about 3 months ago.

Banking on what? Someone latching on to the doubt casting and ultimately your read on me?

Coasting implies that I'm comfortable or relaxed. Where are you getting that from?

Wait it - holy shit it was. Oh.

No, I meant banking too hard as in overexaggerating the importance of "meta", even though I've been in one game with you.

And by coasting along I meant trying to put in base-line effort as not to arouse suspicion.

I just have no idea what to make of you right now.

[Sesq]

Why do you keep mentioning my meta without bothering to ask if I've changed the way I play? Also, why did you deflect here? I'm not coasting, I clearly haven't been here.

Because it's a rather radical change in a small amount of time. I was banking too hard on it, yes, but the changes are evident beyond absences. Being absent doesn't necessarily mean you aren't coasting along.

That game was about 3 months ago.

Banking on what? Someone latching on to the doubt casting and ultimately your read on me?

Coasting implies that I'm comfortable or relaxed. Where are you getting that from?

Wait it - holy shit it was. Oh.

No, I meant banking too hard as in overexaggerating the importance of "meta", even though I've been in one game with you.

And by coasting along I meant trying to put in base-line effort as not to arouse suspicion.

I just have no idea what to make of you right now.

The only way you could've gotten that read on me is if you found my vote and attempt to sort Music Box too easy. I am positive you didn't express that you did and the only thing you've said about it boils down solely to meta. So again, how have I been coasting?

If you don't know what to make of me, why aren't you trying to find out?

You've made two wrong assumptions. The first is that I still think you're coasting. The second is that I'm not trying to find you out.

[Sesq]

Could you show where exactly in my ISO before tonight that gave you the idea that I was costing?

>asks for evidence for a claim I don't believe

Sesq.... tell me honest... are ya scum? I be starting ta think ya are....

VT.

Are you an alt Riley?

Hehe! I'm a cutie! That's all!

But enough snuggles! It's time for catching and gobbling up the scum members!!! Here is who is scum-scum-scummio!!!

I think neBLUEa has a RED role card! My main grapes with 'em isn't that they say bad things, it's that they say it in a super duper weird way. Mebbe they're just disguising, but it's still really forced! I don't like it

Second of all! I think Sesq may be scum!! I love her loads but she's just acting so bad!!! Her arguments seem to me like they're not coming out of loove and compassion from the <3 but from the devious pot of a mafia member's POT OF LIES! she just isn't looking for mafia!

Third of all, KAINTEPES!!!!!!!!!!! is... actually.... SCUMTEPES!!!!!! i think! KainTepes is usin' his wonky bonky posting style to hide people from noticing that he HASN'T SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THE GAME AT ALL! But a Girl Scout is always prepared and eagle-eyed and I saw him even tho everyone else didn't!! Please... focus on KainTepes more!!! Pleaaaaassseee?

These aren't arguments, except for the last one.

[Sesq]

It's called "I made a bullshit claim and changed my mind".

It isn't uncommon for me.

[Sesq]

He seemed to be the only person who was really fitting that role at the time. Would be glad to hear who you think also qualifies.

I think Riley and BBT both would have easily fit that profile at the time you originally posted that. Both have been posting more effectively since then but at that point I was curious why neither twigged you.

Sometimes I really don't know what was going through my mind then.

Meh. I cbd'f to respond to all this nonsense. Magna is prob!scum because he should know better than to argue NAI points and he's twisting things to make them scummy instead of addressing them on face value.

Toto is probs just bad town. I think he thinks he caught scum and now he's in a death tunnel.

VOTE: Magna

"I couldn't be fucked" is not acceptable here, and your magna points are shallow, empty rhetoric. I would agree that Toto is perhaps tunneling a bit too hard on you, though.

Meh. I cbd'f to respond to all this nonsense. Magna is prob!scum because he should know better than to argue NAI points and he's twisting things to make them scummy instead of addressing them on face value.

Toto is probs just bad town. I think he thinks he caught scum and now he's in a death tunnel.

VOTE: Magna

Yeah I thought Magna was trolling at one point but he might actually be serious.

"Trolling" how? This really feels like a forced wagon with LUV going like "yeah you go".

If nebula flips scum LUV is probably going to be my next object of scrutiny.

@Hiraki, your reads of me are actually worse than nebula somehow. First of all, you quote my sarcastic response to Lowell, who had provided reads on people without backing up, and been like "yeah this guy is my scumread unless something changes", which could also possibly be confirmation bias, I wouldn't necessarily place bets. Post 129 has already been debated before, and for Post 144 he was asking for more elaboration only on my townreads, which I wasn't giving him until he actually debated my points. I'll redo a readlist pretty soon here, but other than this you just apply "goodposting" to some pro-neb, anti-me stuff. I feel like in this original post (I'm responding to 366) you accidentally messed up some of the ordering on quotes, because there's a bunch of stuff out of place and that just makes zero sense, notably your response to my 104 and Magna's 107. You're really not posting any strong arguments for your vote on me here. Better play, please.

VT.

Grrrrr!!! It's suspicious that yer claiming so early!!!

And those are arguments!!!! Tell me where ya tried to catch scum!! It's nowhere!!

By process of posting? Not much more to say.

I claimed early because you asked if I'm scum. I suppose a VT claim wasn't necessary to answer your question, but oh well, it's done.

[Sesq]

you accidentally messed up some of the ordering on quotes, because there's a bunch of stuff out of place and that just makes zero sense, notably your response to my 104 and Magna's 107.

Well, if you read what I wrote...

I did and it sucked.

I kind of skipped the LUV posts (on accident) and since MoI is about to start a wall about this, here are my comments:

So yes, I did go out of order but it's not like you're implying.

Correct, because that's not what I meant.

But that says a lot about what I wrote because your arguments against it is that it's bad, not why - just that it's bad.

Well, if you read what I wrote...

Let me take this very slowly:

First of all, you quote my sarcastic response to Lowell

Correct - I did. Your response to nothing was something - that's a big scumread of mine and considering that my read didn't change, it's proven to be correct.

Shouldn't Kain be at least a notch above null, then? It also wasn't really a true nothing post, it was pointing out the lack of logic backing up his reads at the time.

Post 129 has already been debated before

Does this preclude me from giving my own thoughts about it?

No, but this exact sentiment was already said earlier, and explained. Read the thread.

and for Post 144 he was asking for more elaboration only on my townreads, which I wasn't giving him until he actually debated my points.

I love being a baby too, I guess.

"But that says a lot about what I wrote because your arguments against it is that it's bad, not why - just that it's bad."

I'll redo a readlist pretty soon here, but other than this you just apply "goodposting" to some pro-neb, anti-me stuff.

It's almost like I TR people who make good arguments! What should I do? TR people for making bad posts?

No, but you should explain why they are good. Just saying "good post" doesn't add much to the game.

You're really not posting any strong arguments for your vote on me here. Better play, please.

This the annoyance. Instead of refuting my arguments, you just say they're bad. I have no intentions of "playing better" if I have to meet your crappy standards.

Well, you kind of need arguments to refute...

I had to re-type this because I accidentally closed tab. Not the happiest.

READS

LUV - Null, slight lean to scum, voted on me without a lot of explanation. I should get into his Toto interactions more.
BBT - Null. Voted on me for seemingly no reason. This is a repeated pattern.
nydushermain - Still reading through, hasn't said much. Null for now.
Magna - Town. Solid posts throughout, don't really know what to say.
KainTepes - Hasn't done anything aside from trolling. Also Null, I guess. Someone brought up a good point about his meta though, think it was Hawk.
Lowell - Hasn't posted much. Accused me of coasting and thinks I voted nebula on accusations of it, which is extremely stupid if you read our interactions preceding my vote. Null, slight lean to scum but slightly less of a lean than LUV.
Hiraki - Bad arguments thus far, probably neb's partner. I want to interact with them more, though. Null-scum.
Riley Cake - acts in a way that's kind of... well, an act. Probably someone's alt, I don't really care. As for her reads and interactions, nothing strikes out as bad, except for denying the powers of math.
Toto - Null-town. Interactions feel weird, but authentic. Cares too much about neb's supposed soft-claim, but whatever.
Music Box - I thought he was voting me as a counter to nebula but seems to think I'm scum with again, seemingly no reason behind it. And there's a difference between him voting me as a counter to neb (but placing me at null or something) and voting me for being scum.

[Sesq]

2) Where did I not respond

Your last post to me literally talks about 1 / 4 of the people that are on your side believing you about this slip thing.

You ignored the other 3. Does that mean you concede that your argument, while may have some very far off basis, is not appealing to many people?

Well, you kind of need arguments to refute...

I'll be responding in bold because it's easiest.

OK Mister

Miss.

baby. Here's the spoon feed right into your mouth this

one

time.

Here is a concentrated list of why I am scumreading you so you don't have to read

Except that it's literally a wall of text lol

in a game about reading, creating arguments, and refuting them.

1) Responding to something that garners no attention:

Correct - I did. Your response to nothing was something - that's a big scumread of mine and considering that my read didn't change, it's proven to be correct.

I'm quoting just so you know that the information has always been there.

What does this prove at all?

2) Continuation of 1 where he takes an accusation seriously (there's NO implication that this could even possibly be a joke this time) that is hypocritical in nature:

Where am I coasting along, and couldn't the same argument be made for LUV?

You've already stated that Lowell's posting is not very detailed. Lowell has not made any big splashes between these two posts. However, now you are taking him seriously because...?

I was always taking him seriously.

Additionally, while you do ask for sources, you then shift the blame onto another player as if Lowell should just scumread both of you.

These two claims don't conflict. I'm asking him for evidence for his reads, AND asking him why he is voting me over LUV for coasting reasons. It's since been discussed since then that there were more candidates than just us two, namely Riley and BBT, but you're talking as if these claims are conflicting. What planet do you live on where this post progression spells scum?

Again, here are the quotes for the baby:

Everytime you call me a baby, it's a punchline. It's like you found one insult you think gets under my skin, so you're going to spam it everywhere. I love it.

It's almost like...he's scumreading BOTH of you!

Toto and Riley town.

Lil and sesq scum.

unvote

VOTE: Lil

3) Opportunistic

I will admit this was not expressly in my former post due to editing but I had more than enough to warrant a vote without this content.

This doesn't sit with me right. If you have evidence, always present it.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Actually, I don't like this post at all. You push Nebula then people who jump on the wagon are opportunistic scum?

I don't push them, I was just showing neb what the definition of opportunistic is, and it was more on Kain for just following on a waogn.

VOTE: sesq

As I stated, this was a good post by Toto. In current review, this will bring up more inquiries for Toto.

See neb? This is what opportunistic looks like.

Getting some bad vibes with these two.

This is a bad post - why on earth would you just flatout call two people that agree with you opportunistic?

I was calling their action opportunistic. Big difference, my child.

In review, these two people are:

A) Toto (

again, I will revisit this in a futurepost

)

B) Kain_Tepes

If you want to be fair, I can agree with B to an extent. But A? Here's what you've said about Toto in the past.

Toto - RVS vote, then "I'm waiting for scum to post", assuming that they think one of the inactive ones is scum. Given our current pool, I'm inclined to agree.

This was me commenting that nobody stuck out as obvscum at the time.

As for your vote I've considered voting Toto as well, though you haven't convinced me, as there's no Vig in this setup as Hawk proposed. It's 3 Goons, 9 Townies, a doc and a jailkeep. It's like, 8 votes to lynch so I don't feel like I have any reason not to vote this man for fear of quicklynch (as I'm not 100% sure).

VOTE: Toto

Toto - Same with these two. I really just don't know.

(This is a null read)

Proceeding this is the opportunistic vote but I've now decided that I'm going all out here.

Good point here, actually. Wasn't sure you had it in ya.

In reference to Toto's softclaim stuff.

Toto - Null-town. Interactions feel weird, but authentic. Cares too much about neb's supposed soft-claim, but whatever.

This is for the future. I am

damn

sure that a Sesq scumflip means that Toto is scum with him based off of these interactions which start in distancing

In what way is this distancing? I'd call it him being really hard to read.

(which is why everyone has looked at that opportunistic vote like it's weird)

It's only opportunistic in your eyes. Literally nobody else has mentioned a thing about that Toto vote, as I was just voting who looked the scummiest at that time, and at that time very few stood out.

and end in agreement but not full agreement of TR. If he's not scum, I've written a little bit more than I needed to.

[Sesq]

So basically what you are doing is just handwaving as fast as you can. Noted.

No. As my words indicated, I was pointing out that you were using NAI items and twisting scenarios to fit your scum vision. You didn't refute. Noted.

Can you provide some examples? I'd be interested to hear how.

"I couldn't be fucked" is not acceptable here, and your magna points are shallow, empty rhetoric. I would agree that Toto is perhaps tunneling a bit too hard on you, though.

Completely acceptable. I put as much effort into them as he did in crafting them.

lol

VOTE: Sesq

Were you not aware you already voted me? This entire wall had no points other than "this bad" "this good".

Stop. Making. Claims. Without. Backing. Them. Up. Guys. This goes to nebula/hiraki.

[Sesq]

I meant and.

i really wish you could edit sometimes

Also, I should have put more of a response than just "lol", my updated reaction is "Not an argument, you fail."

[Sesq]

Can you provide some examples? I'd be interested to hear how.

Absolutely not. My response was at an equivalent level. You and Toto need to learn to read and deduce. No handholding here.

I'm talking about Magna's apparent NAI twisting. Examples or it didn't happen. Basic logic, man.

Were you not aware you already voted me?

Were you not aware I switched my vote off of you to Magna?

Now I remember.

[Sesq]

I'm talking about Magna's apparent NAI twisting. Examples or it didn't happen. Basic logic, man.

Absolutely not. My response was at an equivalent level. You and Toto need to learn to read and deduce. No handholding here.

Provide evidence for your assertions or die.

[Sesq]

I probably shouldn't be this angry, but this is such shitty play that I just can't.

[Sesq]

Provide evidence for your assertions or die.

Are you serious with this...lulz.

No.

You have no reason not to do so.

[Sesq]

I still have no idea why I'm being wagoned, to be honest.

When your main proprietor is refusing to speak to me (and Toto), your wagon is fucked.

[Sesq]

But if the hammer does come, lynch nebula tomorrow. He has had the worst play I have ever seen, excluding trollers and lurkers. Even if it isn't necessarily scummy, which I find incredibly hard to swallow, it is very anti-town, as he has basically just put his fingers in his ears and gone LALALALALALA because I was actually trying to push him on an assertion of his. It wasn't even coming from a place of trying to get at nebula, I really wanted to know where Magna was apparently twisting NAI (if anyone else can point out where, that would be fine.)

[Sesq]

Ok if you flip green we lynch nebula. If red we lynch me and then hakiro

I can very much agree to this.

You can self hammer now.

Nah. I'd prefer to keep alive but I don't see that happening so far. Either way, nebula dies today or tomorrow, and that's satisfactory enough.

[Sesq]

Music Box - I thought he was voting me as a counter to nebula but

seems to think I'm scum with again,

seemingly no reason behind it.

What did you mean to say in the bolded bit?

As for reason, you've been evasive in your responses to me for a start; 84 seemed too defensive and too careful about your vote for Toto, but without actually saying why you voted him; 129 using the 'look, he did it too' diversion tactic. Not going to write out a full case as I think most of it has already been covered in the thread.

And there's a difference between him voting me as a counter to neb (but placing me at null or something) and voting me for being scum.

I wouldn't have voted you if I had you as null. Not unless we were close to deadline, which we aren't.

What I mean in bold is that you seem not to presented any reasons for your vote thus far. I voted Toto because his early responses were off-putting (but it was not a very strong read), and with the "diversion tactic" post, I also ask where I was coasting along, which I don't think has been answered sufficiently yet.

I claimed early because you asked if I'm scum. I suppose a VT claim wasn't necessary to answer your question, but oh well, it's done.

NUUUU!!! IF YOU'RE TOWN WHY'DJA SAY YOU WERE VT INSTEAD OF JUST SAYING YOU WERE TOWNIE? HURH?

that just helps scum find the secret powers easier! or are you mafia? I think ya are!! I'll gobble ya up right after I eat kaintepes!!!!!

Early claim doesn't mean I'm scum. This is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

I will policy lynch Riley at any point in the game without question btw

policy? what are ya, a politician?

I think she doesn't like your typing style. I'm more bothered by nebula. Oh yeah; lynch him tomorrow when I flip town. Please. Or lynch him today, I have no issues with that.

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

What I'm seeing here is riley doesn't want nebula to die and also doesn't want to be one of the last on the wagon when sesq does. The "too obvious" conclusion here is nebula/riley scumpair. I'm going to try not to get all spun up about this, but this is a terrible terrible derailment when there's a L-2 and L-3 at play.

Of course, for that matter, so is Kain Tep's.

I think you're taking both of them too seriously.

I know Riley, and she does just kind of act like this, I haven't seen anything suspicious. Hawk brought up a point with Kain's meta I thought was interesting though.

Also @Lowell, why are Elena and BBT town? Back up your reads.

[Sesq]

I know Riley, and she does just kind of act like this, I haven't seen anything suspicious. Hawk brought up a point with Kain's meta I thought was interesting though.

How do you know Riley if this is her first game on site again?

She's a friend on Discord, me and a few others told her about this place. I don't want to say anymore as I don't want game stuff ending up there at all.

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

What I'm seeing here is riley doesn't want nebula to die and also doesn't want to be one of the last on the wagon when sesq does. The "too obvious" conclusion here is nebula/riley scumpair. I'm going to try not to get all spun up about this, but this is a terrible terrible derailment when there's a L-2 and L-3 at play.

Of course, for that matter, so is Kain Tep's.

I think you're taking both of them too seriously.

I know Riley, and she does just kind of act like this, I haven't seen anything suspicious. Hawk brought up a point with Kain's meta I thought was interesting though.

Also @Lowell, why are Elena and BBT town? Back up your reads.

When did I say anything about KT'S meta?

Also I Riley is new and unless you know her Alt you shouldn't saying things like this. Also you should take everything KT and Riley say seriously. Despite there posting style being ridiculous ignoring it or getting aggravated by it is exactly what they want you to do as doing so is detrimental as both Town and scum. Makes them more dangerous so you shouldn't dismiss them for no reason.

Also hold on just a second but I think I see a Grammar mistake that is incredibly important to your thought process sesq...

It may not have been you, it could have been Magna, but someone said that Kain does have different (but still trolly) actions based on if they're town or scum. Pretty sure it was Magna now.

You are right that I should probably take them more seriously, though, whenever I'm having trouble finding something (usually physical) it's in a place I had dismissed previously for whatever reason, and the same might go here, except instead of a sock, a tv remote or Amnesiac it's a member of a dangerous crime organization.

Music Box - I thought he was voting me as a counter to nebula but

seems to think I'm scum with again,

seemingly no reason behind it.

What did you mean to say in the bolded bit?

As for reason, you've been evasive in your responses to me for a start; 84 seemed too defensive and too careful about your vote for Toto, but without actually saying why you voted him; 129 using the 'look, he did it too' diversion tactic. Not going to write out a full case as I think most of it has already been covered in the thread.

And there's a difference between him voting me as a counter to neb (but placing me at null or something) and voting me for being scum.

I wouldn't have voted you if I had you as null. Not unless we were close to deadline, which we aren't.

Yeah right here in 402. MB bolded the important part. Notice you say "seems to think I'm scum

with

again"

note the with. It almost seems like you were pointing MB as having an associative scumlean on you and one other but changed your mind halfway through and then missed this part...

Am I reading into this too much guys?

No, your reading is fine, but this was a grammatical mistake on my part. It should have said

... seems to think I'm scum, with, AGAIN, seemingly no reasons behind it.

It was in reference to how people in my readslist prior had voted for me without personally explaining things.

PEDIT: Lol, you think I'm scum with nebula or hariko? I can kind of maybe see MB or Hawk, especially the latter, but fam u crazy.

I do think that Neb and Hariko could be partners, though. The third slot I'm unsure of but I have a feeling it's nydusher or Elena or something. Purely gut, don't listen to my reads of them too seriously, but mainly the former has been fairly inactive. Then again, they had apparently spread themselves thin over multiple games, and I've checked and he is in 3, I believe. Wouldn't blame him.

[Sesq]

Anyone up for flash lynching Kain?

ewwwwwwwww LIVERPOOL.................. you are from SCOUSELAND??

VOTE: BLUE BLOODED TOFFEE

If my assumption that by "scouseland" you mean "scotland" is correct, no. Liverpool is a city in the southern part of northwest england. It's about 133 miles, or 214 km.

This post is absolutely pointless, I'm just bored.

[Sesq]

Never nevermind.

[Sesq]

Pwetend I'm a dumb bimbo, okway? An' tell me what's wrong with Toto's dealio!

The fact that no one knows what Sesq will actually flip (well except for scum). The fact that it's lining up lynches when that is a sure-fire way to make the game stop working. The fact that things change.

Being hidden specifically does that. No need to lie about it one iota.

Right - there is no need to lie about it. We agree with this. We disagree in the fact where I do not necessarily think it is scummy to lie about it and you believe that lying about it is scummy.

This slip here is really funny, you're like "Nobody knows what she will flip... OH YEAH i mean um, scum. They're scum. Totally." As if you're scum, you know that I'm town, but needed to append it to your message. Also, where has toto been lining up lynches as you described?

Also, yes. Why is he town.

[Sesq]

Anyone up for flash lynching Kain?

ewwwwwwwww LIVERPOOL.................. you are from SCOUSELAND??

VOTE: BLUE BLOODED TOFFEE

If my assumption that by "scouseland" you mean "scotland" is correct, no. Liverpool is a city in the southern part of northwest england. It's about 133 miles, or 214 km.

This post is absolutely pointless, I'm just bored.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.p ... Scouseland

guess i am more BRITISH THAN YOU even though i live in MEXICO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mexico =/= The United Nations of America.

This is the scummiest play I've seen all day. \s

[Sesq]

VOTE: NEBULAR

Why are you voting them?

[Sesq]

This slip here is really funny, you're like "Nobody knows what she will flip... OH YEAH i mean um, scum. They're scum. Totally." As if you're scum, you know that I'm town, but needed to append it to your message.

Gonna break my promise....sorries.

This is just plain bad. To call a legit response to your question a slip is ew-worthy. He's spot on that no one except scum knows alignment, and so it scummy to line up lynches.

But...I think you know this.

Hiraki wasn't talking to me, they were talking to Riley.

Well, does me wanting you to be lynched tomorrow when I die (or today, or just asap) count as lining up lynches? If so, it's not really a scummy behavior, it's just setting forward plans, which I see as NAI. I don't really like the tactic (unless you're at risk of death like me), as it can often set your mind on someone too strongly in the face of new evidence, which isn't really good.

Surprised this post compelled you to reply, and how much you got wrong. This boycott on responding to me will only hurt you.

I know you're not trolling and that is the absolute most troubling part.

Also, where has toto been lining up lynches as you described?

The /entire/ deal is about lining up lynches.

Ok, so that's your entire case, where's the case evidence?

This isn't actually responding to my question.

PEDIT: You should make it obvious you're joking or else it will get used against you. That said, I'm not really buying the "joke" excuse on first listen.

[Sesq]

Also, it isn't even a good joke. Or a joke.

[Sesq]

Hiraki wasn't talking to me, they were talking to Riley.

How does that impact at all what I said?

Because it wasn't a response to my question, and if it was I don't expect legitimacy out of Hiraki.

ok............ if it was just a joke then it explains the LOGIC OF FAULTINESS,,, UNVOTE:

i dont think SESQ is scum...... wagon speed too fast,, also she seems to come from a townie place

VOTE: BLUE BLOODED LIVERPOOOL SCOUSER

Hey look someone actually looked at my fucking pronouns for once.

That said, why BBT now?

[Sesq]

Because it wasn't a response to my question, and if it was I don't expect legitimacy out of Hiraki.

So change "your" to "her" and re-read. How does it change at all what I said.

This is scum flailing.

It makes that particular aspect correct, but as for me accusing it of being a slip, I did it because of a direct contradiction in statements. Hiraki says:

"The fact that no one knows what Sesq will actually flip" indicates that Hiraki thinks that my wagon is a bit unsure, and then follows with

"(well except for scum).", in a very forced kind of way. So if Hiraki isn't scum, they at least don't have full confidence in my wagon.

I'm not flailing here, this point is of relative unimportance to me, but I think it's still worth opening discussion about.

Kain, you should really hop on the Sesq wagon. It's nice and warm. Elena should hammer. She's town.

Emptily trying to get people on my wagon, and your "Elena should hammer, she's town" statement, coming from you, makes me distrust her more. It feels like you're trying to already cover her up if she hammers, as that'll look really bad when I flip.

PEDIT: Yes, I have, and it looks like toddlers flinging shit at each other. You haven't actually refuted his reasons for wanting to lynchplan, and it looks like you're dodging it because my townflip will end up with you getting lynched. Also, you haven't responded to Toto's prod to ask you to quote examples of Neb being town and you have instead used weak excuses like "i like the color". All this re-read has done is strengthen my scumread of you.

[Sesq]

So if Hiraki isn't scum, they at least don't have full confidence in my wagon.

I don't have full confidence in your wagon. No town-aligned player, absent a cop with a guilty, should. Doesn't change the fact that I think you have a high probability of flipping red.

Also, what you said above is not a direct contradiction, it's a clarification. I don't see it sounding forced at all. Would you have preferred "Only scum will know what Sesq will flip." Semantics. It doesn't change the overall point at all.

You seem to be focusing on unimportant details...why?

When I said "didn't have full confidence" I didn't mean that in the way that they have like, 90% confidence, like I do in yours, I meant that it seems to be more around 50-60 with him. I do agree that you should never have 100% confidence in a wagon, excluding cop with guilties (if sanities aren't a factor that is). It is both a clarification and a contradiction, as he says "nobody knows what sesq will flip" and then directly after "sesq will flip scum", which is pretty cut and dry. When I have confidence in something, say, me flipping town, I don't say it like "well who knows what im gonna flip but um, yeah, it's totally town guys!!!". I say I'll flip town because it's a factual truth (unless I end up surviving the rest of the game, and even then does that count as flipping town if you're alive when you win? Semantics). If he had said only scum will know what sesq will flip, that would have still been wrong, as I know what I'm going to flip, and that's VT. I do realize that this is not of extreme importance, but if anything catches my eye i'm going to talk about it, regardless of its apparent importance. You never know when one little word might be the key.

[Sesq]

You never know when one little word might be the key.

When I said "didn't have

full

confidence" I didn't mean that in the way that they have like, 90% confidence, like I do in yours, I meant that it seems to be more around 50-60 with him.

Then why not just say he didn't seem to have confidence in the wagon? You're back tracking to make it fit your narrative. That's scummy.

Actually no, what I said still fits my original accusation, we just interpreted it differently.

@MAGNA:

Because he's been posting good and I haven't seen any major faults with his play.

What do you want me to say?

In my experience, this is the default response for someone who hasn't deeply read into anyone, or is covering their scum partner. Probably the latter.

Yeah let me line the lynches again. Lynch me first. If i flip green lynch nebu. If that flip red powerlynch hikari

You want to be lynched?

Weird.

[Sesq]

we just interpreted it differently.

Hey, the truth is the truth. You could learn a thing or two.

PEDIT:

I AGREE

PEDIT 2: POWER OUTAGES SUCK - If anything, the fact that you have had the same read on him for that long, despite a lot of recent activity, shows a lack of reading.

[Sesq]

Your rebuttal seems to be based on it being bad scum play, which is what I think he's doing.

despite a lot of recent activity

...where he has done nothing to change that read.

Really?

[Sesq]

What is this, Nebbie and Sesq are going to start town reading each other???? PLOT TWIST!

Because I'm not 100%? Nah. I'm more like 98%.

[Sesq]

(which it isn't inherently .. it is NAI)

This phrasing is why I definitely can't pin you as a TR.

I'm getting lazy with quoting - I don't need, nor want, to overdefend Nebula. I TR him just as much as I TR NYD.

Is any defending overdefending? If so, that's interesting to hear from you.

Why do you townread him? Also, you haven't said you've townread NYD yet, I don't think.

PEDIT: Probably.

[Sesq]

Can't spoonfeed children anymore. Don't have the time, patience, or want. Won't be playing with either of you in the future if this is how the game will continue.

No, what you're actually doing is making blind assertions and refusing to listen to anyone.

I'm lynching you tomorrow.

[Sesq]

I'm lynching you tomorrow.

You think you're still going to be here tomorrow?

I'm hoping, but probably not. I'm thinking I'll either get lynched (which with the continuing stupidity of you two I find to be less likely than neb getting lynched) or get NK'd tonight due to my town points for pushing a lynch onto you.

It's also possible that you were town, and I'm not really sure what would happen after that. I'd go after Hiraki regardless.

Yeah, just like I've never TR'd NYD.

In your readslist, yes, but that was basically you saying TOWN with LITERALLY no words on him. You saying you townread neb like you do nydush makes me think he may be the third partner here.

PEDIT: But you haven't said anything substantial. If you don't want to repeat yourself, quote what you supposedly have to repeat.

Shouldn't be hard, right?

[Sesq]

This half arsed defense can't come from town

VOTE: hikari

Unless we can get everyone on neb onto Hikari, please go back to neb. They're more or less the same person and if we're split among the two we're getting a me-lynch.

[Sesq]

You are just making town!Neb look more suspicious by having someone defend him without proper explanation or you are defending your buddy. Either way, I don't see the town motivation.

When town defends someone they just stand for it and try to sway people. You are not doing that.

It really looks like they're buddies right now.

[Sesq]

hikari is actually acting the same way as in the other game he was scum

We've played one game together where I was scum. I don't think meta is a useful tool, especially with no other games to counter the one viewpoint from, but to each their own.

Yes, but if you have similar play, well, that's another

brick in the wall

reason you're scum.

@Toto: Good point about potential later retraction, but how could I be scum with Hikari?

[Sesq]

Well, if we can convince Hawk and Elena...

[Sesq]

@Toto: Good point about potential later retraction, but how could I be scum with Hikari?

He is busing you but also setting me up for a ML the next day.

Kinda irrelevant, as I won't flip scum. We should pursue Hiraki regardless.

[Sesq]

Early claim doesn't mean I'm scum. This is a very juvenile way of looking at things.

'cos I'm a juvenile! but even then! I'm not sayin' early claim means yer scum, I'm sayin' town has NO REASON To early claim!!! so, if ya really town, you gotta EXPLAIN WHY YOU DID IT!!!!

Because I tell the truth, and like why not.

COS BBT IS FROM SCOUSELAND,, he is here to steal our BRICKS

this is racism kaintepes!!!!!!

Remember, you can't be racist to white people. Power + prejudice. (SARCASM)

[Sesq]

but he's lining up a lynch on himself!!!!

OK? It's about 4 people in this game. Don't you think there's something wrong about a plan that focuses on 4/13

(its actually 14 ~sesq

people in this game?

IT'S RUDE TO SWEAR!!!!

It's rude not to listen the first time, as well, no?

The lining up lynches point is stupid and NAI stop

[Sesq]

I like Riley, she is a like cute version of Kain.

That's giving Kain far too much credit.

[Sesq]

Kain is just too strong and too aggressive.

No, I meant that Riley seems to be engaging with the game in a weird kinda way, while Kain doesnt.

[Sesq]

Does anyone else other than me want Hikari to clarify his townreads?

Nope.

[Sesq]

Why not?

Fuck, I read your thing as "Am I the only one who wants Hiraki to clarify his townreads", which I responded to with no.

But yes, I do want him to clarify his townreads. Very yes.

[Sesq]

It's almost like I TR people who make good arguments!

This is actually a really bad reason to TR people.

I'm more wondering about how nebula makes "good arguments"

[Sesq]

Because I tell the truth, and like why not.

Why not??? 'cos it makes it easier for the mafia to find the PRs, that's wynaut!!! you should know this!!!!!



THIS WYNAUT SAYS SESQ IS PRETENDING NOT TO KNOW!!!!

Yes, but unless I was actively hinting at being a PR (i wouldnt) their stance on me would be unchanged. How would this move be scum motivated, though? You can call it suspicious all you like, but of what?

[Sesq]

Yes, but unless I was actively hinting at being a PR (i wouldnt) their stance on me would be unchanged. How would this move be scum motivated, though? You can call it suspicious all you like, but of what?

okeydokey! quickie example!!

there be 11 townies, rightsies? and 2 of 'em are PRs!!! soooo if the mafia shoot, they gotta 2 outta elevensies chance to hit the PR!!!! BY LUCK!!!!! that's unfair!!!

but if ya claim VT, then the mafia only have a one outta five chance to hit the PR!!!!! cos they know you aren't PR and won't shoot you!!! well, maybe they might shoot you cos you caught 'em and they wanna make sure ya don't lynch 'em!!!! but unless that's the case, a VT wouldn't claim cos they didn't want the mafia to catch the PR easily!!!!!

The problem with the logic here is that it assumes mafia trusts your VT claim and doesn't think you're lying about your role in effort to avoid being night-killed.

[Sesq]

You don't lie about your role if you are town unless you really know what you are doing.

And this is only my third game

[Sesq]

I don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

Why are you concerned that he is hard town reading your scumread?

And with shitty justification

[Sesq]

I don't really like a Hiraki wagon I do feel like nebula is scum Sesq seems to just feel like clueless town to me with the early claim and the way he's defending himself

Why are you concerned that he is hard town reading your scumread?

Where did I say I was concerned?

He meant why are you NOT concerned

how could you miss this it was the last post

[Sesq]

Hiraki has already said why he's townreading Nebula and Nydus.

Yes, but those reasons are incredibly weak. First with nydus, he says that his 248 is "GREAT. A pure TR". He also doesn't link it. He has said nothing else for reasoning regarding nyd being a townread, and not only that but a strong townread, due to his post in reaction to an early-game post of mine.

As for nebula, he repiles to 3 of neb's posts with "goodposting" and nothing else, and puts him at a townread. Nothing else.

So yes, he's said why, but the reasoning is shit for both of them.

[Sesq]

I remember him saying more about nebula, although that may have been just repeating the same thing. I'm just getting a bad feeling about this current push on him.

i dont think SESQ is scum...... wagon speed too fast,, also she seems to come from a townie place

You could say the same about the wagon on Nebula. They grew in parallel with each other. Why did Sesq's wagon seem different?

Neb's wagon sped even faster, I think, or at least earlier on. I think the differences have more to do with behavior.

[Sesq]

And on the specifics of his behavior, while I am willing to go into open discussion about things and be 100% honest, nebula seems to be dodgy and avoidant and declared to stop speaking about Toto and I. The associations between him and Hiraki also seem to be strongly pointing to them being scum together, mainly Hiraki's lack of explaining for his strong townread (and then later refusing to go into it more for "overexplaining", despite the fact he didn't do jack shit.)

I do realize I'm sounding the same horn with this post but I think it's good to explain to people why I sit where I do.

[Sesq]

And on the specifics of his behavior, while I am willing to go into open discussion about things and be 100% honest, nebula seems to be dodgy and avoidant and declared to stop speaking about Toto and I. The associations between him and Hiraki also seem to be strongly pointing to them being scum together, mainly Hiraki's lack of explaining for his strong townread (and then later refusing to go into it more for "overexplaining", despite the fact he didn't do jack shit.)

I do realize I'm sounding the same horn with this post but I think it's good to explain to people why I sit where I do.

Nebula's decision to stop speaking about Toto and you was actually a town point for him. And he did chip in again when he thought it right to do so.

Why are you getting a bad feeling?

I'm not exactly sure. It was an impression I got from reading the last several pages in one go. I think it was the feeling that people were realising that the Nebula wagon had stalled and were trying to find an alternative. I'll look at that more closely tomorrow; or more probably Monday as I might not have time to concentrate on this on Sunday.

How the hell is refusal to speak to someone a town point? I could see it as NAI, maybe. I wasn't really expecting him to keep that promise when he made it, though.

[Sesq]

ANSWER MY QUESTION KAINTEPES!!!! YOU ARE BEING HIDEY AND USLESS THIS GAME!!!!

YOU ARE BETTER THAN THIS IF YOU ARE TOWN!!!!

I don't really think hiraki is scum!!!!!

Why ain't hiraki scum?

[Sesq]

I'm going to have to agree with Riley here. I think someone got an evil role PM!!!

VOTE: KT!!!

sigh

Can we just lynch nebula already? Or Hiraki?

[Sesq]

He also doesn't link it.

Baby confirmed - no matter what.

Oh no

- I did not post a wall onto my wall. I am clearly not referring to a post when I put the number of the post in my own post.

mainly Hiraki's lack of explaining for his strong townread

Remember when you asked the game if anyone needed clarification on my reads and no one responded?

It was a minor annoyance that you hadn't linked the post. However, you have not addressed anything else within that post. This dodgy shit won't get past me.

As for the second, no, but what other people think doesn't actually matter here, because you still haven't fucking explained anything.


You are either scum or the worst town player I have ever encountered.

[Sesq]

For reasoning it seems like there's a bunch of random little stuff, mainly early-game, but how that could stick out over neb or Hiraki I wouldn't know. Especially the latter's play now, I don't know how you could work up apologia for that,

[Sesq]

Why are you scum reading Hiraki again? I don't think not explaining reads makes him scum.

It's his dodginess and constant misrepresentation that irks me. Also, what Toto said, although I can think of one instance, is if you were cop and you got a guilty one night. However, there's no Cop in this game and it's day one.

PEDIT: Yeah what she said

[Sesq]

Ok, I'm going to assume "making good arguments" is the only reason he is townreading Nebula. Hikari, if you are town and this is wrong please enlighten me.

VOTE: Nebula

That's basically the MS version of "i like you because you good". No actual substance, just purported substance.

[Sesq]

Why wouldnt he want to explain reads as town though?

Why would scum not want to do normal town things like explaining reads I don't see why scum would draw attention to themselves like that

Good point, but to what benefit as town?

[Sesq]

@MOD: nydushermain hasn't posted in over 48 hours, and nebula + lowell will fall over that 48 hour mark pretty soon.

[Sesq]

Weekends only count as 24 hours for the purpose of prods.

stupid me

[Sesq]

Why wouldnt he want to explain reads as town though?

Why would scum not want to do normal town things like explaining reads I don't see why scum would draw attention to themselves like that

The attitude feels forced to me. He is a logical player, and he is being illogical.

I mean, most people who are logical are prone to being illogical from time to time, such as myself, but what I'm seeing more from him is dodgy and intentionally misleading behavior, or in some cases logic that seems to come from batshit nowhere, mainly in his first two big posts.

He has something to hide, definitely.

[Sesq]

I honestly think you're wrong but you believe you're right and that's scary. I have a lot more to re read ( I did catch up but a lot of it was me just glazing the thread) so I'll take another look at him but I do think you're wring

Why is he wrong, and why are his beliefs scary?

[Sesq]

Someone who is doing wrong but believes there in the right is without a doubt one of the most scary things

This isn't actually answering the question.

What is it with people and dodging questions

[Sesq]

Someone who is doing wrong but believes there in the right is without a doubt one of the most scary things

This isn't actually answering the question.

What is it with people and dodging questions

That was answering part of your question just because you don't get an answer you're happy with doesn't mean it's a dodge. I think he's wrong on the scumread because I think there town use common sense it's not a hard thing to fill in the blanks

Actually no, you didn't answer my question (unless there was confusion over what you were answering which seems unlikely, if so feel free to correct.) I asked this: "Why is he wrong, and why are his beliefs scary?" and you answered with "Someone who is doing wrong but believes there in the right is without a doubt one of the most scary things". This doesn't answer why he is wrong about his scumread of Hiraki, but it does kind of answer the latter, but not really, as your fear is over him thinking what you believe to be incorrect things, not over what those thoughts are, which is... confusing.

"Town use common sense" is not an argument. If it was truly self-evident we would be able to see it. Why is Toto wrong on his scumread of Hiraki?

Answer.

[Sesq]

"Common Sense" is not an argument. Stop using it. You say he's wrong because you townread Hiraki... duh, but why do you townread Hiraki?

[Sesq]

I'm not using it as an argument at all is the thing though lol

No, but your response is "use common sense", and if it isn't self-evident then there is clearly more explaining needed here. You have a townread on Hiraki, why?

[Sesq]

duh, but why do you townread Hiraki?

You see this is good not the stupid around the bush stuff you did before.
I liked Hiraki's tone and his reactions to toto's push plus his play draws attention to himself where I don't see scum needing to do that

"his tone" is a fairly empty statement you can apply to just about anyone. Not *clap* a *clap* argument *clap*. (mods plz add clap smilie). And if you like his tone, what do you like about his tone?

As for his reactions to toto's push, what about it?

And for drawing attention to himself... well, while it is good scum play not to draw attention to yourself, him playing bad scum isn't impossible here. I believe I saw Hawk using a similar argument earlier that I didn't address. Could've been someone else.

[Sesq]

duh, but why do you townread Hiraki?

You see this is good not the stupid around the bush stuff you did before.
I liked Hiraki's tone and his reactions to toto's push plus his play draws attention to himself where I don't see scum needing to do that

"his tone" is a fairly empty statement you can apply to just about anyone. Not *clap* a *clap* argument *clap*. (mods plz add clap smilie). And if you like his tone, what do you like about his tone?

As for his reactions to toto's push, what about it?

And for drawing attention to himself... well, while it is good scum play not to draw attention to yourself, him playing bad scum isn't impossible here. I believe I saw Hawk using a similar argument earlier that I didn't address. Could've been someone else.

You asked for an answer and I gave you one just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not an argument

When I said it wasn't an argument, I meant it in the way that you'd say a rusty, barely-running jalopy isn't a car, or how incoherent scribblings aren't art. It is an argument, but it isn't a very good one. You really need a bit of help when it comes to the logic department. There's also 2 other questions you didn't answer.

[Sesq]

duh, but why do you townread Hiraki?

You see this is good not the stupid around the bush stuff you did before.
I liked Hiraki's tone and his reactions to toto's push plus his play draws attention to himself where I don't see scum needing to do that

"his tone" is a fairly empty statement you can apply to just about anyone. Not *clap* a *clap* argument *clap*. (mods plz add clap smilie). And if you like his tone, what do you like about his tone?

As for his reactions to toto's push, what about it?

And for drawing attention to himself... well, while it is good scum play not to draw attention to yourself, him playing bad scum isn't impossible here. I believe I saw Hawk using a similar argument earlier that I didn't address. Could've been someone else.

You asked for an answer and I gave you one just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it's not an argument

When I said it wasn't an argument, I meant it in the way that you'd say a rusty, barely-running jalopy isn't a car, or how incoherent scribblings aren't art. It is an argument, but it isn't a very good one. You really need a bit of help when it comes to the logic department. There's also 2 other questions you didn't answer.

You see the way you word it makes it sound otherwise so please do not try and back peddle out of what you just said just because you don't find something good doesn't mean it's invalid and no I answered the questions.

Back-pedaling is clarification plus pre-supposition.

And no, you haven't answered to what you like about Hiraki's tone or what's good about his reaction's to toto's push. my third response is also ignored, though it doesn't have any direct questions.

[Sesq]

hey Sesq what do you think happens when you ask stupid questions?

You mean ask for further detail on your read?

If you have good reasoning it shouldn't be hard. You have presented reasons for townreading Hiraki, and I have asked you to elaborate on said reasons.

You can't dodge me.

[Sesq]

Quite franky if I wanted to dodge your questions I would just ignore you.

VOTE: Elena Fisher

[Sesq]

I will not elaborate on the reasons at this moment ask me another day.

This is scum giving up.

It's funny.

But I do believe we should try to converge on one of neb, hiraki, and elena.

[Sesq]

If I wanted to go into more detail I clearly would've by now so why do you keep asking?

If you make a claim you should substantiate it with evidence.

[Sesq]

I did just because you don't like it doesn't mean it still isn't evidence you just want me to go into more detail and quite franky I am slightly annoyed so I do not feel like going into detail at this moment.

Does that clear it up for you

What it says to me is that you know your claims are bullshit and don't have anything to back it up with, so you're going to spit out excuses so you don't have to admit it.

[Sesq]

Making up a read is quite easy wouldn't you agree if I was scum I would at least make sure to back up a claim I made. Scum think before they act Town act before they think

Making up a read is easy, and so is dodging explanation, but you're going to get caught. Your last two sentences are just... beautiful. Beautiful.

[Sesq]

Actually rereading this and I think Elena's reaction is town.

VOTE: hikari

@elena you may be right about hikari but Im not convinced. His attitude is anti town, just because it draws attention to himself it doesnt mean he is not scum. All I want is dialog and move on but he is holding the discussion back.

Why is Elena's reaction town? Also going to sheep you here, as I'm fine with Neb, Hikari, or Elena being lynched (in that order), and having the votes split up doesn't help.

VOTE: Hiraki

[Sesq]

Yeah i dunno how I could have the audacity to not talk to someone who just calls me wront all of the time like wtf me

Actually, you should be interacting with people who call you wrong THE MOST, so you can debunk their claims... if you actually have evidence to do that.

PEDIT: Someone gives you a reasonable question and you don't even try to answer. Nice job, scum.

[Sesq]

Actually, you should be interacting with people who call you wrong THE MOST, so you can debunk their claims... if you actually have evidence to do that.

Yeah i dunno how I could have the audacity to not talk to someone who just calls me wront all of the time like wtf me

@Riley - I've actually tried to articulate my TRs but I get very basic and almost sound childish so I need that part on how much you want me to explain. NYD and I have the same thinking which leads to the TR. Nebula has town attitudes toward incredibly false claims.

If you and NYD had the same thinking, either he'd be more unreceptive and childish or you'd be more absent. Jokes aside, in what ways do you think alike? Also, to what false claims does Nebula have town attitudes to, and how are said attitudes town?

Also, refusing to give clarifications to any one person makes zero fucking sense. You're not giving clarifications to a person, you're giving it to everyone in the game, at the request of whatever person.

[Sesq]

Oh!!! You already did Thanks Hiraki!!!! *hugs*

Glad to help - mind giving a reads-list?

since ya asked nicely, sure thing!!!!

LIL UZI VERT is a big cutie but he is null. He isn't lurking like SCUMTEPES!!!! but he is kinda woozy! I can't think of any wagonsies that he's been joinin' lately. Uzi poozi, who are ya scumreads?

BLUEBLOODEDTOFFEE is kinda weird!!! He seems like the strong and silent type. Hmm... I think I'd put him in the same basket of fun as uzi!

pep hasn't posted anything!!!! hopefully they are as good as PEPSI!!!! it's my favorite drink

magna is great ^_^ I like magna's post a lot!! they are logical and their avatar is really cute and just makes me want to snuggle it!!! eeeeee!!!!

kaintepes is SCUM!!!!! they are intentionally not posting a lot!!! to cover up the fact that they are scum!!!!

I kinda think lowell is a lil town but not too much I don't know how to explain it though!!! it's just a feeling from my riley heart!!!

hiraki(that's you!!! say cheese!) is townie. cos... of the frustration!!! I'm sowwy that someone got mad at a mafia game... but I think this is the mad that comes from town who thinks they are being bullied! not the mad that comes from scum who got caught!!!! he seems like a good player and wouldn't get caught that easily so i think toto is wrong there!! sorry toto!

RILEY CAKE IS TOWN!!!!!!

I like how toto helped to point out why nebula is scummy!! that is goodsies!!! sooo I think toto is town.

But SESQ IS NOT!!! SESQ IS JUST SHEEPING TOTO FOR GOOD LUCK!!!! AND TO BLEND IN!!!! grrrr!!! I wrote earlier why sesq is a scum already :c

nebula is scummy of coruse!!!! I already told everyone why I feel that way

I dunno how to feel about music box or hawk.... sowwy hiraki

elena's a big meanie with her policies... but I think she is town.!

The reason I'm "sheeping" Toto is entirely for my own benefit. Right now I want a lynch for nebula or hiraki, and maybe elena, but the situation right now is that you have various people split between those three, and what I want to do is vote for the one with the most people already in order to try to push that to lynch. There are times when I don't end up going to the one with the most people, but the higher amount of recent votes you have on a wagon, the more it will be in people's mind. Nebula hasn't done anything for over 48 hours, so that wagon isn't very fresh on people's minds, but the ones on Hiraki and Elena are, due to recent engagement with those two. I do realize that this post can be interpreted as scum sheep strategy, but I've already explained my reads on these three people and I would not vote for anyone outside of them without some solid evidence, even if Toto were to do so. Hypothetically speaking, if Toto and I were scum together, it would have been much easier to create a push for Kain lynch than say, Hiraki, of whom my scumread only came after lots of interrogation.

And me trying to blend in? I'm probably posting the most out of anyone right now, and have gotten rather tooth and claw with certain people, and I know that those people are going to dig the fuck out of this post to create a narrative that this is me revealing my voting strategy, which it is my voting strategy, but with the pretense of it being inherently scummy. Nobody is a bad enough scum player to tell town their strategy, except for those mentioned three if they flip in that way, as I don't like to pin down absolute. As a WIFOM gambit, this shit would be far too risky and require someone of experience more than mine to pull off correctly.

Also to add to your read on Hiraki, I don't believe the frustration itself to be alignment-indicative, as I could see that coming from town or scum after that much intense interrogation, but if you look at the source it came from Hiraki refusing to elaborate, or even explain on a base level his reads, which is rather alignment-indicative.

Also looking back at your earlier reads on me, it seems to be due to my earlier VT claim. What motivation would scum me have at the time to make that claim?

[Sesq]

...if Toto and I were scum together, it would have been much easier to create a push for Kain lynch...

kaintepes is SCUM!!!!! they are intentionally not posting a lot!!! to cover up the fact that they are scum!!!!

I agree with this. I want more pressure on this slot.

lol

[Sesq]

Elena 809 : Hiraki's play would be really dumb for scun
Elena 811: Hiraki's play is overthinking it

Thought this was funny. Good convo, though, between you and Toto.

I understand just saying you find a post good and wanting to leave it at that but this is how I see it at least

OK - let's flip this for a second. Who do you TR and why? Just need one person.

furiously ignores conversation

[Sesq]

Elena 809 : Hiraki's play would be really dumb for scun
Elena 811: Hiraki's play is overthinking it

Thought this was funny. Good convo, though, between you and Toto.

I understand just saying you find a post good and wanting to leave it at that but this is how I see it at least

OK - let's flip this for a second. Who do you TR and why? Just need one person.

furiously ignores conversation

No I said that Toto is overthinking it holy hell can you read right

It was just meant as a stupid joke but I did get that wrong, somehow. Thanks for pointing it out, so I can clearly label that potential, small point as illegitimate. Wow, um, that came out more sarcastically then I intentioned.

Music Box, Sesq, and Toto.

Why? Mostly on Toto considering his recent influx of posts.

I could sympathize with those who have issues with Hiraki but based on my experience with him, his play here isn't odd. His attitude and behavior is very similar to a game I played with him recently where he was town. I death tunneled him that game foolishly.

How long ago was that game? More than three months?

Can we please run up Sesq now? I'm asking nicely.

In three games, caught up on two. This one is the longest and may have to wait until tomorrow. Apologies.

Obvious prod dodges are obvious

@Anyone who scum reads both Nebula and Hiraki

– get back on Nebula. Splitting the votes between both just means that neither one will get any significant momentum.

VOTE: Hiraki

lol.

So your stance is that Kain Tepes is scum but you don’t want to vote him because that will not help anyone but the alignment he is not a part of. Aka Town ....

OK so let's get this straight:

1) You want me to vote someone other than my top SR at the moment.
2) You want me to vote Kain for pressure purposes.
3) You're SRing for me not pushing on one of your own SRs.

It didn’t but what I did notice is that Town Kain tends to be more OMGUSy and self-aware than scum Kain. The fact that he didn’t make any comment at all about my threat to potentially push through a lynch on him (even to say “You will not find anything”) has me leaning scum.

Are we partners now too? For the fact that I haven't voted Kain but have expressed a SR?

Am I scum for not voting Toto?

This is very inconsistent. If this was multi-vote, I'd agree. It's not like I'm ignoring Kain - I'm just not voting. I'm doing pressure my own way. Your scumread essentially is based off of the fact that I am not doing pressure your way and that your way is the only way. I think we can both agree that's a little absurd, no?

holy shit hiraki is making good points defcon 5

Your reasoning is shit, and your attitude is shit. Im asking you to clarify because Im trying to decide if you are town and being a dick; or you are scum.

You phrased it better than I.

[Sesq]

Obvious prod dodges are obvious

Not a prod dodge (I abhor prodging). There has been nothing posted that changes my read on you, and you are the leading wagon by far as the days tick down. We need to get moving so we don't end up in a deadline lynch.

@Anyone who scum reads both Nebula and Hiraki

– get back on Nebula. Splitting the votes between both just means that neither one will get any significant momentum.

VOTE: Hiraki

lol.

Yeah...I don't see how that is funny.

If your read on me hasn't changed, that means it's still total fucking horseshit, correct? You're just asserting your claim again even though it's been debunked days ago. Come up with something new and we might all have a bone to chew on, OK? If you want to force a new scumpoint onto me, there's plenty of meat to tear through.

Also, the latter is funny because he changed his mind within 13 posts. Also MagnaOfIllusion you said that you thought elena's read progression was odd and forced, but there was 90 posts between the two statements you posted and a good lot of it was elena v toto, so it doesn't make absolutely no sense.

[Sesq]

You're just asserting your claim again even though it's been debunked days ago.

Point to the said debunking, please. Also, chill on the cursing. K. Thx.

Also, the latter is funny because he changed his mind within 13 posts.

You see that as funny and not AI?

If you were reading my posts you'd know where I debunked you.

I don't find his pointing out of that alignment indicative as changing your mind isn't necessarily negative.

[Sesq]

If you were reading my posts you'd know where I debunked you.

Must have been a doozie of a debunking considering you are still the leading wagon (and no one hopped off).

Care to point to it, as I previously asked?

Burden of proof is on you to summarize your claims first, as the debunks could be addressing points you no longer believe and could be invalid.

[Sesq]

Burden of proof is on you to summarize your claims first, as the debunks could be addressing points you no longer believe and could be invalid.

Lynch this. Guaranteed scum flip.

If you can't actually present points then it's your scum flip.

I'd provide a debunk but I don't know what your state of mind is regarding me totally and I don't want to do more than necessary.

Burden of proof is a real thing, and it lies on the person making the positive claim save for very extreme circumstances. Also, innocent until proven guilty was one of the first laws ever written, from the Code of Hammurabi from 1754 BC, and it's something I like to preserve throughout all facets of life.

Also, I forgot to call out your bullshit argument from popularity. Consider it covered.

[Sesq]

Burden of proof is on you to summarize your claims first, as the debunks could be addressing points you no longer believe and could be invalid.

Lynch this. Guaranteed scum flip.

If you can't actually present points then it's your scum flip.

I'd provide a debunk but I don't know what your state of mind is regarding me totally and I don't want to do more than necessary.

Burden of proof is a real thing, and it lies on the person making the positive claim save for very extreme circumstances. Also, innocent until proven guilty was one of the first laws ever written, from the Code of Hammurabi from 1754 BC, and it's something I like to preserve throughout all facets of life.

Also, I forgot to call out your bullshit argument from popularity. Consider it covered.

Pretty sure you should reread Hammurabi's Code before making statements like that (hint: it dealt with the retributive punishment, not innocence or guilt).

Whatevs. For you to not even point to the post is ridiculous. At this point, it's looking like your lynch of a NL. I can't support a NL.

The law I'm specifically referring to in that code said that if someone made a claim without evidence that they should be punished. So basically, a law from 3700 years ago is telling me to lynch you. Thought that was funny.

If you can't present evidence, I'm going to assume there is no evidence. Is that understandable?

[Sesq]

The law I'm specifically referring to in that code said that if someone made a claim without evidence that they should be punished. So basically, a law from 3700 years ago is telling me to lynch you. Thought that was funny.

If you can't present evidence, I'm going to assume there is no evidence. Is that understandable?

Yeah...except it doesn't. But we can debate that post-game (again, it's retributive).

I'm going to disengage from you again, as this is not helping move us forward. This isn't a court of law. Logic alone does not make a strong case. It's actually a horrible play to base your judgement on that alone given scum can manipulate.

My vote won't move, so let's see what happens.

Does anyone else see why I'm voting this man?

Or maybe you're just terrible at logic and aren't willing to admit it.

[Sesq]

The only reason that this isn't moving forward is that you can't admit you have zero points for voting me, or at least can't show that you have any points for voting me. Logic is everything in this game and you have presented none of it.

[Sesq]

Also, first of all, screw this lack of auto-appending double posts (a feature i've seen on other phpbb forums), but I'm not actually voting nebula right now, it's on Hiraki for largely the same reasons, except that neb is actually worse. Not voting for him as there isn't a large enough wagon. Too many inactive players this game.

[Sesq]

Or maybe you're just terrible at logic and aren't willing to admit it.

Ego post. Yes, my 75% win rate shows that I am terrible at this game.

Words can say anything. Actions matter.

Now, I'm done.

If you have your vote on anyone, and you cannot answer the simple question of why you think they are scum (except for in rvs), you deserve all the scrutiny in the world until you can construct a case.

[Sesq]

Too many inactive players this game.

There's only one person being prodded.

Inactive was not the right word. I think very infrequently active would be a better descriptor (BBT, nyd and lowell all def fit here, and a few others are arguable)

[Sesq]

BBT and Lowell play this way. You won't get more from them.

So... like shit?

[Sesq]

Burden of proof is on you to summarize your claims first, as the debunks could be addressing points you no longer believe and could be invalid.

Lynch this. Guaranteed scum flip.

If you can't actually present points then it's your scum flip.

I'd provide a debunk but I don't know what your state of mind is regarding me totally and I don't want to do more than necessary.

Burden of proof is a real thing, and it lies on the person making the positive claim save for very extreme circumstances. Also, innocent until proven guilty was one of the first laws ever written, from the Code of Hammurabi from 1754 BC, and it's something I like to preserve throughout all facets of life.

Also, I forgot to call out your bullshit argument from popularity. Consider it covered.

sesq!!!! this is why I wanna hammer you if you get to l-1!!! if ya town ya should be super excited and chatty and eager to tell everyone allllll about how ya debunked nebby's claim!!! ya shouldn't be tryin' to make excuses not to do it!!!! grrrrr!!!

Well, my problem is that I want a claim to debunk. It isn't my job to fish through his post history and find things to debunk, partially because he hasn't been very receptive to me in general, so there might be things I've debunked that he agrees with me on that I don't know about, so this is the best way to respond to his concerns.

[Sesq]

Well, my problem is that I want a claim to debunk

You said you already debunked it. Now you are saying you need something to debunk.

It's confusing to play as scum - I get it - but you really need to start getting your story straight.

VOTE: Sesq

You do realize you've already had me voted?

Yeah, I debunked your old claims, and fairly well, but if you're still voting me that implies you have case, no?

A case that should be questioned, as all should be, no?

[Sesq]

You do realize you've already had me voted?

Yes. Extra vote was for emphasis.

Yeah, I debunked your old claims, and fairly well,

You realize this is what I've been asking you to point to and you've been dancing and flip-flopping around...right?

Did you read my reason for not surfing back and quoting them? Due to your non-descriptive reactions (such as replying to one of my debunks with "youre still scum", no reasoning), it's hard to know what points you still have against me for being a scumread, and I don't want to debunk points that you already agree with me on. You're being just as dancy as I here. Or you could just, you know, read my ISO.

I'm going to disengage from you again, as this is not helping move us forward. This isn't a court of law. Logic alone does not make a strong case. It's actually a horrible play to base your judgement on that alone given scum can manipulate.

Friendly reminder to everyone

– the tone here is not one used to address someone you think is scum. Nebula just got done calling Sesq “guaranteed scum”. This is addressing a town player.

I don't see the links here. Good point about my wagon having little push, though, seems to be a pretty common town-wagon attribute

Please demonstrate how you are doing ANYTHING to pressure him. It should be trivially easy. But looking at your ISO I don’t see it.

You don't see how I've called out on Kain on everything that he hasn't done and how useless he's been this game?

I’m pointing out that your stance looks very much like what I expect from experienced scum who knows Kain’s reputation as lynch-bait.

Wow what a counterable and concrete argument - if anyone is swayed by this, please say something (Toto & Sesq not invited)

Fuck your lack of invitation, I'll say what I want.

That said, good job pointing it out, the "experienced scum" line definitely has buzzword potential and I do want to hear more what he means about this.

grrrr!!! I am kind of weirded out that everyone is voting sesq but NO ONE is pushing her!!!! shouldn't ya be pushing the people you are voting??

We've had almost 40 pages of discussion. How much more could anyone actually want?

A lot more, actually, given how vapid most people's read is of me. Speaking of, why are you voting me Lil Uzi Vert? I remember it feeling a bit lacking in justification earlier-on but I never pushed you on it as much as I should.

Also, some miscellaneous things at hiraki:

I'm fairly sure you bolded your signature sometime after I called you out for not seeing the obvious "she". If you're putting in any level of effort, yeah, you care.

Also, when talking about posts, PLEASE USE THE POST TAGS (the very rightmost of bb stuff). It's extremely annoying having to surf through posts like that for anyone.

[Sesq]

I'm fairly sure you bolded your signature sometime after I called you out for not seeing the obvious "she".

No, I didn't and this is a mean accusation that has nothing to do with this game. I just have to remind you that this is a game at the end of the day and that I would treat you as a person outside of the game and this statement reflects that you think of me as some sort of monster who just tries to fuck with people. It's very concerning.

Nah, it's just a funny thing I noticed, but if you didn't change it I believe you.

I don't think you're a horrible person for it don't know why you're taking it so personally

[Sesq]

I don't see the links here. Good point about my wagon having little push, though, seems to be a pretty common town-wagon attribute

You don’t see that the tone in that post is not Town talking to someone they think is scum? He’s saying “Basing your play on logic alone is horrible play and scum can manipulate it”.

Do you think a Town player says to a scum suspect “Your approach is flawed because reliance on logic alone can be manipulated by your partners”? Not in a million years. Town says something like “You are trying to use an incorrect interpretation of Hammurabi’s law to push scummy wagons” if the person they are addressing is a scum suspect to them.

Yeah, it makes sense now, but he wasn't interpreting ham's law for the purpose of pushing my wagon, or at least that ain't what i remember.

You know one thing on my mind has been "oh magna is scum oh magna is scum" I see it from a lot of people and yet...no wagon why is that

sign of a town wagon, or just that it's nobody's top scumread.

[Sesq]

Your absolute refusal to debate points with me is either bad scum or bad town based on your alignment.

If you want people to vote for me, you need to present reasons that aren't bullshit

[Sesq]

I don't need to debate points with you. If others are hesitant, they are more than welcome to (they aren't however).

What reason would there be to recommend halting debate? I see no reason for a town player to encourage this.

[Sesq]

No.

Answer my question.

What reason would there be to halt debate?

VOTE: Nebula

Neb or Hiraki, happy with both. I think Neb knows that him posting attracts votes like moth to a flame

PEDIT: Yes Kain. Nebula has refused to have open debate about his scumread on me, which is behavior I don't think ever comes from town. I think you should vote for him, but I first recommend reading the game and making up your own mind. Also, I like how I was presenting reasons whilst nebula is just like "HOP ON MY SLAVE"

PEDIT: Well, help us "get it".

[Sesq]

Dude, if you are town there absolute ZERO reason for you to behave like this.

Unless talking to me reminds him of 'nam.

PEDIT: Why would that be, Kain?

PEDIT: "You don't get it" is not a fucking argument.

Also, someone's suspicion isn't something you can really speak to someone for, it's their personal opinion. Or you could maybe like, start playing like someone who wants to find mafia?

PEDIT: Toto, I don't really understand what you're saying, but the refusal to bring up reasoning is of extreme high suspect.

PEDIT AGAIN: hey look, an actual question that I personally don't see the relevance of (but whatever). My reads are mainly on Nebula (voting me) and Hiraki (voting me), and mild reads on Elena (voting neb) and Nyd (now lucca, voting nobody).

PEDIT: Is this a violation of rules? Also, where was hawk being aggressive?

But you still haven't addressed any points.

[Sesq]

Why won't you explain your read on me?

[Sesq]

Yeah, it was about this:

"No, I'm fucking sure there is no reason for you to not try to convince others to vote your scum read if you are town in this situation."

He is trying to convince people, he just isn't backing anything up.

[Sesq]

Why won't you explain your read on me?

Why do you keep hitting your head against a wall expecting a different result?

So you think Elena is bussing on a three vote wagon?

Mild scumread. Indicating I'm not sure. Also, I've bussed (or been willing to bus) in wagons regardless of size.

Why won't you explain your read on me?

[Sesq]

Why aren't you voting for Neb, then? Bigger wagon of those two.

[Sesq]

Actually no, 2 from Hiraki went over to Nebula, so Neb's at 4 and hiraki at 2.

[Sesq]

why arey ou so against me voting HIRAKI??

Well, do you think he's scummier than Nebula? I assumed you thought they were equally scummy, in which case you should vote Nebula as he has a larger wagon.

But if you do think Hikari is scummier then def. go on ahead

[Sesq]

We're lynching Sesq.

Town!Kain would hop on at this point.

p-edit

Convincing case: I = town; Sesq = scum.

Are you being serious or are you just shitposting?

If the former, everyone should vote you. If the latter, everyone should vote you.

Hiraki may be scum, but I don't see it right now. Hasn't risen to the uncomfortable level.

Sounds like a weak attempt to fend off association.

That's a bad Kain. Bad!

N O T A N A R G U M E N T

So basically, you still have no case.

[Sesq]

then vote HIRAKI

Votes don't count if they aren't bolded

[Sesq]

Sesq...the headbeating and tunneling is getting old. Stop rehashing. People can make there own decisions at this point.

Something I've directly encouraged Kain to do, if you read.

As for me telling him bolded votes don't count, I'm pretty sure it's general site stuff that votes have to be bolded to count, preferably in the vote tags. If he wants to vote Hiraki I'm definitely for him doing so.

The reason I'm tunneling you is because I want actual answers instead of illogical trite, which is all you're dealing out.

[Sesq]

Did you read my reason for not surfing back and quoting them? Due to your non-descriptive reactions (such as replying to one of my debunks with "youre still scum", no reasoning), it's hard to know what points you still have against me for being a scumread, and I don't want to debunk points that you already agree with me on. You're being just as dancy as I here. Or you could just, you know, read my ISO.

clara!!!!! this excuse is REAAALLY LAME

just tell him aaalll the debunks ya got and he'll tell ya which ones he doesn't have points against!!!! I don't think he's dancy at all!!! but you look like ya just weally weally don't wanna talk to him!!!!

Actually, I very much want to talk to him, and I would be doing more so if he wasn't so goddamn dodgy. It took forever for my questions of a case for him to be answered, and it was literally just "I'm town, Sesq is scum", which is 100% idiotic. His recent performance especially is just so far down the shitter I don't see why people wouldn't vote for him.

As for me telling him bolded votes don't count, I'm pretty sure it's general site stuff that votes have to be bolded to count, preferably in the vote tags. If he wants to vote Hiraki I'm definitely for him doing so.

He wasn't trying to......

Wasn't trying to vote Hiraki? Not sure what "He wasn't trying to...." is in reference to

I don't really see how that move by Hawk is AI though, he's just sheeping his townreads until he gets through it. Maybe he's a bit fast to place down a vote, and I could see that as scummy, but that wasnt the point you made

[Sesq]

Doesn't even read his own posts....I definitely cbf'd.

ALT SLIP CALL THE POPO

But seriously, reading my posts is something that I do frequently, and I recommend you try it out as well

[Sesq]

But seriously, reading my posts is something that I do frequently, and I recommend you try it out as well

Then you should know the answer to your own question.

The problem was your post which implied that kain wasn't trying to vote hiraki

I think it's a scum tactic to hook up people on irrelevant bullshit so imma stop here

anyway what's your case on me? Like, an actual one, not one that's suitable for a 3 year old

[Sesq]

The problem was your post which implied that kain wasn't trying to vote hiraki

I think it's a scum tactic to hook up people on irrelevant bullshit so imma stop here

It went beyond implying...I was straight up indicating. Kain was trying to get

me[

to vote Hiraki.

Soo...yeah...there that is.

what's your case on me?

[Sesq]

What are your opinions on Neb/Hiraki? We already got those wagons going but I think I *might* be willing to compromise for a Lowell lynch.

[Sesq]

I haven't read anything regarding Hiraki yet but I'm townreading Nebula.

Lowell is the best option I have seen so far and you should join the wagon.

Yeah, if you haven't gotten to Hiraki and you still tr nebula... the fun awaits you

[Sesq]

VOTE: Sesq

Sesq, why was there no push on Toto/Kain after disliking their jump onto the Nebula wagon?

First of all, that was over a week ago, and there has been a lot of new content from them since then (well, at least for Toto, Kain still seems trolly and unreadable.)

Second of all, both those votes could come from town seeing my post and just agreeing with my reasoning.

Third of all, I wanted to see what Neb would react like with a wagon at them with actual reasoning behind it.

You're voting me for one tiny thing that happened 10 days ago. What even.

Nebula and Sesq are where they are in my reads based on their early game discussion - I believe Nebula came out of it looking much better.

Sesq has a lot of instances where he says things like - 'I don't know what I was thinking', 'I can't really explain it now' and 'Oh yeah, that was really bad posting from me'. Those types of comments don't sit well with me because it's a cop-out from explaining his reasoning.

Yeah, you shouldn't base your reads off of early-game stuff, the later the better in terms of evidence. As for the points where I have been like that, it's because I said something moronic and unsubstantiated and I want to label it as such. I make mistakes, and I'm not going to try to hide the fact that I have. If anything it's scum play to try to cover it up, which isn't what I am attempting to do.

No, I haven't read the whole game yet. I think I stopped around page 20.

R E A D T H E E N T I R E G A M E

As for the Lowell flash wagon, I think we should move back to Neb, as I don't feel super confident on Lowell, but I would be willing to compromise.

[Sesq]

His lack of a case for me and constant pushing without evidence screams of high suspicion. He did once seem to have some legitimate concerns but after I debunked them he went into "fuck you you're scum" territory and just held tight to my wagon like there was no tomorrow. He also tries to get me on a lot of minor things in effort to distract me and completely ignores when I tell him to present a case on me being scum.

I might be able to pull out some more reasons if I go far back enough through his ISO, this was mostly just off my head.

[Sesq]

Now, this is some early-game shit, but my main debunk was over at 134, in which I criticized him on his relatively weak reasoning. His next reply, 136 was still reasoned, which I addressed in the pedit of 137, and his only reply was 140, the infamous "You are f'ing scum though" post, which really set me off, as that is just not OK. I personally recommending doing a double ISO with just me and him, as that hits mostly everything, but I'm reading through and one thing i notice is his 155 dismissing my arguments merely as OMGUS, even though I had explained why that label was missing detail. After this, his only reasoning on me is "vote sesq she scum", from 182 on, I guess after he concluded there was no arguing with me, except for labeling my stuff as "theater" in 272. Also, 278 is funny w/r/t some more recent interaction. Hiraki enters at around 402 and Neb responds with the horribly inefficient "expressive read through", including a revote on me, weak deflection and NOISE. He claims he has reasons not to provide evidence for assertions over at 427.

The minor things he's tried to get me on are mainly the fact that KT's vote wasnt bolded.

[Sesq]

This Lowell wagon has me very uncomfortable. I can see stupid moves like that coming from town and him just approaching things in a different way that don't necessarily align with scum, but may appear so.

The high speed of this wagon (along with neb and hiraki being okay with it, mainly the former) has me really thinking this is a town wagon.

Nebula, what is your case on me being scum? (i'm putting this after every message from now on)

[Sesq]

(i'm putting this after every message from now on)

Until you actually explain yourself, that is.

[Sesq]

Once again searching lucca261 replacement.

I can feel the irritation in this post.

[Sesq]

MoI, chances of Sesq and Nebula being town?

ya asked for my input, soooo... hmm!!!

I liked clara's posting lately!!!! there were some weiiiiird parts where she refused to talk to nebby! but I don't think they're both scum together!!! And I think nebby is scummier!!!!

VOTE: nebula!!!

LOL me refusing to talk to nebula

I've been egging on him to respond to my questions for a while now.

Speaking of which, Nebula, what is your case on me being scum?

LOWELL IS AT L-1. I REPEAT. LOWELL IS AT L-1. PLEASE EVACUATE ONTO NEBULA OR SOMETHING. OR DON'T, DEPENDING ON YOUR PREFERENCE. BUT NOBODY LOLHAMMER HIM. PLEASE.

[Sesq]

SESQ!!!! THE FAST AND FURIOUS OF LOWELL WAGON DOESN'T MEAN HE IS TOWN!!!! COS IF I WAS SCUM WITH HIM I'D TOTALLY BUS HIM!!!! HE IS SO OBVIOUS SCUM!!! GRRRR!!!!

hawk!!! please answer my 1002!!!! or I'll eat you up!!!

I'd expect scum to bus him, if that were the case, however I'm not entirely sold his posts are scum, but definitely leaning there. I still don't feel comfortable with this, I'd rather everyone move over to nebula

[Sesq]

My attitude towards Riley was a clear joke I thought that was clear.

This is the greatest backpedal of All time.

You have an answer for everything don't you.

I read: "You've reasonably answered all my stuff and I am left with nothing."

Yeah, Elena seems pretty scummy here but my gut kinda pulls the opposing direction, and my gut has so far been right 2/2 times.

[Sesq]

Oh yeah, almost forgot.

VOTE: Nebula

For the same reasons as before.

[Sesq]

My attitude towards Riley was a clear joke I thought that was clear.

This is the greatest backpedal of All time.

You have an answer for everything don't you.

I read: "You've reasonably answered all my stuff and I am left with nothing."

Yeah, Elena seems pretty scummy here but my gut kinda pulls the opposing direction, and my gut has so far been right 2/2 times.

Are you kidding me? I've never met Riley I have no reason to be a dick to her it was clearly a joke

*fiercely ignores actual points*

Hey Sesq - what do you think about how Night turned out?

I was sort of expecting a less active player to get killed as a safe move, but I wouldn't expect that to be Kain, it seems you could push a lynch out of him given his play.

Also, kinda had a "told you so!" epiphany about Lowell flipping town, even though my reads back then were null I was expecting him more to flip Town upon his lynch, gut-based.

Sesq, please help me lynch Elena. I'll give you a cookie.

MoI, I'll talk more about Toto when I'm at a PC. IIRC though, up to page 25 or so, he only ever voted for Nebula/Hiraki and one other person. Can't remember who it was but he stays within 3 people the entire time.

I'll consider it, but I just kinda have a gut feeling we're lynching town here, and I don't want to do it. Nebula is still my favorite.

[Sesq]

Gut feeling is super bad reasoning for D2.

Give me something more solid.

Well, it's done well for me before.

Also, I think Neb is scummier.

[Sesq]

Srs question: Does anyone think that all three scum were on the Lowell mislynch?

1/3 at least.

Also...that was a strange choice for a nk.

This feels like kind of a forced sentiment, could just be caused by presupposition

Either yours or Sesq, yeah.

And, who was responsible for leading that?

BBT, I think.

[Sesq]

BBT, I think.

Try again.

If you know it, say it. No need to hide information, or else I'll try to derail Elena's wagon straight onto you.

[Sesq]

You should be able to look it up fairly easy. I want you to say it.

Provide evidence for your assertions or die.

[Sesq]

VOTE: Sesq

{Magna, Sesq}

Let's try and figure out the third. I'm thinking the Lowell wagon needed some extra help, so probably on it.

Why's Magna scum?

[Sesq]

I've stated why I previously had a scum read on him. His derailment of your wagon onto town!Lowell enhances it. You would have been the D1 lynch otherwise.

Nah, it was pretty 50/50 between us. Also, just because my wagon was "derailed" (or more likely, he changed his mind and others did as well) onto a town person (who i nullread, i should note). Also, this scumread is based on me being scum, which is the most unproven of unproven assertions out of you.

[Sesq]

It wasn't 50/50. You were the leading wagon with no forward movement on either you or me. Upon deadline, you would have been lynched. That's just how things work.

I don't really care what you thought of the slot. Derailment requires the slot to be iffy, otherwise there will be too much resistance.

And, yes, you are scum. The derailment of your wagon enhances my read on that. The fact that you had the largest wagon D1 & so far are even D2 means that I'm not alone in that thought. Either way, you are an extremely informative lynch for me at this point.

Multiple logical fallacies:

" The derailment of your wagon enhances my read on that. " Reads as circular logic, as the derailment of my wagon means I'm scum, but it wouldn't have been derailed in your eyes if I weren't scum. Also, argument from popularity, which is not true. Also, "informative lynch" is not an excuse to tunnel someone when you have no logic for it.


And you haven't escaped my eye, Music Box.

[Sesq]

It wasn't 50/50. You were the leading wagon with no forward movement on either you or me. Upon deadline, you would have been lynched. That's just how things work.

I don't really care what you thought of the slot. Derailment requires the slot to be iffy, otherwise there will be too much resistance.

And, yes, you are scum. The derailment of your wagon enhances my read on that. The fact that you had the largest wagon D1 & so far are even D2 means that I'm not alone in that thought. Either way, you are an extremely informative lynch for me at this point.

Multiple logical fallacies:

" The derailment of your wagon enhances my read on that. " Reads as circular logic, as the derailment of my wagon means I'm scum, but it wouldn't have been derailed in your eyes if I weren't scum. Also, argument from popularity, which is not true. Also, "informative lynch" is not an excuse to tunnel someone when you have no logic for it.


And you haven't escaped my eye, Music Box.

Holy shit. This is not a game of logic. Can logic help? Yes. Should you base all your decisions on logic? F'no.

To entertain: Why would Magna derail a, plausibly, SvT wagon (where either you or I are scum) unless his partner was the most likely to be lynched? As an outside party, I would have pushed for one of us to be lynched.

"Also argument from popularity"....lulz. Just gonna say lulz. It's not an argument from popularity, it's the fact that no one (except scum) wants a NL, and history shows the leading wagon usually goes (unless derailed).

Also, and informative lynch is a very good excuse to tunnel someone. It should have been done D1. I was remiss - amongst others.

Only reason I think there is a hint of town in you is that neither of us is scum and they are enjoying this TvT. Not sold on that.

HAHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAHHA This is absolutely a game of logic, and your lack of it will get you thoroughly lynched by me. You have no logical reason to scumread me. You have admitted it and it will be well-known.

Nebula has scumread me for most of the game while admittedly having no logical reason to do so! Lynch this man!

I've said that Magna pushed for a Lowell lynch because he thought Lowell was scummiest-looking. Not implausible. Also, I find it interesting you're describing us as SvT. Also, what you said was an argument from popularity, as your context was in that because people agreed with you on me being scum, that means I'm scum, which is always a stupid argument. Also, you never made any point about No-lynch. Ever. This is out of nowhere.

Your informative lynch excuse is pointless. I could say the same about you, except beyond that I have actual logic and you have none, so I think you would be a better candidate.

Also, that last bit makes little sense. You're saying you have a slight townread on me because scum could be enjoying TvT? What?

[Sesq]

Nebula, how am I scum?

[Sesq]

[8] Lowell - MagnaofIllusion, BlueBloodedToffee, Hawk, Toto, Hiraki,

nebula

, Riley Cake, KainTepes [LYNCH]

Note who is smack dab in the 6th slot on said wagon – Nebula scum. Yet he’s actively arguing that scum derailed the wagon on Sesq to mislynch Lowell. A wagon he was very late on. Why would Town Nebula derail the “obv” wagon on Sesq to help a mislynch? Furthermore let’s look at how he jumps on …

Will I lynch?

1. Lil Uzi Vert: I... guess. Meh.
2. BlueBloodedToffee: No.
3. nydushermain: Neutral, so, sure.
4. MagnaofIllusion: Yes, please!
5. KainTepes: No.
6. Lowell: No.
7. Hiraki: Yes.
8. Riley Cake: Probably not.
9. Toto: No, but he could quit nagging me.
10. Sesq: Yes, please.
11. nebula: sure, why not.
12. Music Box: No.
13. Elena Fisher: No.
14. Hawk: Yes, but not ideal.

This is horri-bad. You can't possibly think that both Sesq and I are both scum.

VOTE: Lowell

Look at the complete lack of Town logic here. Lowell is calling myself and Sesq as his “top” scum reads. Reminder – these are supposedly Nebula’s Top Scum suspects. Yet he abandons the Sesq wagon to join a wagon I supposedly was using to save Sesq because he’s placed as possible scum with Sesq (yet below Myself, Sesq and Hiraki arguably on Lowell’s depth chart)?

Not how Town thinks. Town Nebula should have been decrying the wagon and looking to keep Lowell Town who has the same reads as he supposedly does alive.

But he doesn’t do that. He makes up a crappy excuse to jump on the mislynch. And then comes out today looking to point blame for said mislynch.

Scum. Can’t be more clear.

I'M the one who's supposed to be calling out Nebula!!!! You're beating me at my own game.

That said, great scumhunting.

Translation – let’s see if I can put out feelers and see which way I want to sell my approach today.

Translation: There is scum off the wagon. Let's discuss who that is. I think it's Sesq.

Town!MoI would understand that. Scum!MoI is trying to push a mislynch.

What are you trying to say? I actually want to know. Just feels like you're randomly pushing out stuff.

The following post (1259, too big to quote) is him derailing and avoiding Magna's point about him going onto the wagon himself, along with misrepping Magna. Magna wasn't saying it was Neb derailed the wagon, but merely helped by voting Lowell.

Hey Sesq - what do you think about how Night turned out?

This is a very odd question to ask and I'm not sure what kind of answer you were expecting. Night kills only happen for three reasons and talking about any of them won't help us find scum today.

What are the three, in your opinion? I see getting rid of inactives, getting rid of people close to finding you, and getting rid of people wanting to lynch a town member to frame said town member. There's probably more.

Also LUV, do more explaining.

I don't disagree; but, why?

I gave my initial reasons in 501. Since then the wagon stalling while opponents of it were trying to find a viable counterwagon made me more certain.


1243 is bad. Why the mockery?

HAHAHHAHAHAHAAAHAHHAHHA This is absolutely a game of logic, and your lack of it will get you thoroughly lynched by me. You have no logical reason to scumread me. You have admitted it and it will be well-known.

Since when has lack of logic been a scumtell? In fact, earlier you seemed to favour gut over logic when you said to Nebula in 132: "In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad."

I've said that Magna pushed for a Lowell lynch because he thought Lowell was scummiest-looking. Not implausible.

Also, I find it interesting you're describing us as SvT.

Also, what you said was an argument from popularity, as your context was in that because people agreed with you on me being scum, that means I'm scum, which is always a stupid argument. Also, you never made any point about No-lynch. Ever. This is out of nowhere.

Why do you find it interesting that Nebula's describing the two of you as SvT?
And why are you saying that thing about no-lynch? I feel like you were trying to start an argument there, because all Nebula seemed to be implying was that if it wasn't for the derailment to Lowell, you would have been lynched by default.

Note when talking about him as a gutread, I did not place a vote on him UNTIL he started doing illogical stuff.

As for my interest in him describing it as SvT, it's more of a "lol hes obvscum" thing more than any constructive observation. As for no-lynch, I don't think it would ever have won, and as for my wagon vs. Neb's, I think either of us could have been lynched and I really don't care too much now.

[Sesq]

VOTE: Elena

You aren't slipping by

[Sesq]

VOTE: Elena

You aren't slipping by

Do something or get bent.

No, it's just you jumping onto a major wagon without justifying yourself.

[Sesq]

VOTE: Elena

You aren't slipping by

Do something or get bent.

No, it's just you jumping onto a major wagon without justifying yourself.

OMG guys! Instead spending D2 tunneling, I'm voting someone who didn't adequately answer my question, has a previous case of suspicion that - while didn't originally convince me looks more so now - and cannot answer a simple question on why they didn't vote me.

I'm so scum. Power lynch me...please.

Get bent.

P.S. wasn't leading wagon until I hopped on.

P.P.S. Do something.

That question and answer had already been gone through before. Didn't say it was leading wagon, PS: I just said "a major wagon", don't misrep, PPS:

[Sesq]

You have an answer for everything don't you.

Hmmmm!!! This post looks TOWNIE !!!! Elena looks like FRUSTRATED AND SUSPICIOUS TOWN !!!!!

No, this looks like a really scummy response to me, trying to dismiss arguments made against them when they are defeated.

[Sesq]

Zzzzz Riley is sleepy and didn't read the past 4 pages!!!! Sorry!!! tell me if there's anything important I missed!!!!

magna: wibbly wobbly my riley brain tells me he is town... but my RILEY HEART SAYS HE IS SCUM!!! I dunno what to do

elena: hm... I think probably town!!! but I'll keep an eye out to see if my town read was wrong!!! she could've faked it as scum after all!!!!

nebby: I'm still okay with lynching him

Sesq: I think that their tone is super duper like frustrated town!!! so I'm moving them to townlean for now!!!!

"Tone" is a very weak reason to town or scumread anyone. Also, read all the game.

[Sesq]

Riley, you scum read Nebula. Why are you not voting him?

Anyone else not voting Nebula better have a good explanation of why we should townread him.

You seem to be unaware that people can have multiple scumreads, and maybe do scumread nebula but just scumread someone else more, and vote for them instead?

It isn't black and white like that.

And my next exhibit in the “Why Nebula is Scum” … this post.

Earlier today Nebula has stated that I “shopped” scum reads on himself, Hiraki and Lowell. But this is the response he gives when Sesq quite properly points out that Nebula’s jump onto Elena was out of nowhere.

This is Cognitive Dissonance in full display – I was scum “shopping” for a lynch yesterday but he is Town exploring his other options and not tunneling. Look at my reasons and posts surrounding my suspicion of Hiraki, Nebula and Lowell. Then look at his jumps on Elena and Lowell (BTW he’s trying his absolute hardest to distance himself from any responsibility for his vote to mislynch Lowell which is scummy). Which ISO looks like someone actually looking for scum and which looks like scum making opportunistic hops?

Vote Nebula … he’s even asking for it!

You are exhausting.

How no one sees that you are intentionally distorting things to be scummy is astounding to me. I never stated that you shopping your vote/focus on other players was scummy. I was correcting Hawk's previous assertion as it was factually inaccurate. I'm also not "trying my absolute hardest" to distance myself from Lowell. My entire argument there is that

you

started it.

Seriously...no one sees what MoI is doing? Blatant misreps...

I haven't seen any distorting from him. Where is it?

Also, I fail to see who started the Lowell wagon to be very important. The rest of MoI's play has been pretty towny, and if it's town lynching town then who you should be suspect to are the people who hopped on late in the wagon's life.

Like you.

I do agree that with this point it was kind of bunk, but your choice of vocabulary comes off as scummy. That said, it's more of a gut read at this point, which I have previously stated to be the case. In terms of logic you do present good points with rather unfortunate framing, but my gut is still going off like mad. But your worst part here is your last sentence, "Perhaps I was too haste in my town read of you based on your willingness to engage with me yesterday". First of all, I WAS engaging with you with that post, and with this very post as well. Engagement is also fairly NAI.

Hi, Sesq. Could you point to what vocabulary I used that came across as scummy? It would be helpful for me to understand that.

Also, I believe that you misinterpreted my last sentence. I was stating that I read you as town yesterday based on the fact that you engaged with me - which you now point out should not be indicative of alignment. I was stating that I may have been to haste in that read given the basis of your suspicion. I believe that to not be genuine.

VOTE: Sesq

I bolded the important part.

Here nebula votes Sesq because he believes Sesq's basis for suspecting nebula (choice of vocabulary) is fake itself and therefore scummy.

Now, it should be very obvious that this statement can't be sincere. Nebula is an alt that is purposefully displaying a fake personality. Nebula should realize this and should realize the way he phrases his posts comes off as fake, because it is fake by design.

So no fucking way he belives Sesq is being

disingenious

here.

I want this lynched today.

I fail to see the logic here. I only scumread him AFTER he had abysmal responses to my rebuttals, his initial vote I don't necessarily see as a scummy move, but certainly most things he did after that point would qualify as such.

Not hope. You don't have the ability to get me lynched. Same reason I wasn't getting lynched D1.

You should focus in MoI/Elena/Sesq/Uzi

Actually, if we pulled together people who were split amongst you and hiraki, and had a few less people rarely active, we could have had a lynch on you going.

Now we have 2 rarely active townies gone and one less vote to lynch. It's definitely more possible today.

Whatevs - nice excuse.

What is that supposed to mean?

It means "I can't argue this point so I'm going to weakly dismiss it".

I've seen this tactic utilized by Elena as well.

Notice how Nebula avoids addressing the case against him and instead focuses on discrediting the attacker.

Textbook definition of ad hominem right there, kind of, I don't know. Point is, it's shitty logic and LYNCH THIS MAN

[Sesq]

I fail to see the logic here. I only scumread him AFTER he had abysmal responses to my rebuttals, his initial vote I don't necessarily see as a scummy move, but certainly most things he did after that point would qualify as such.

Nebula: "I'm voting Sesq because I don't believe Sesq finds my choice of vocabulary suspicious like he says, he is making up excuses to suspect me."

He is saying this as an Alt that uses a fake vocabulary by design.

I don't see how being an alt is relevant, but I'd agree thats a bad reason

[Sesq]

I haven't seen any distorting from him. Where is it?

Maybe you could be an adult, and do your own reading given that I've point it out on several occassions. Oh wait, you're prob!scumbuds so you wouldn't see it.......

If it's so obvious, you should be able to point it out.

If you cannot provide evidence, you must have no evidence.

I've seen this tactic utilized by Elena as well.

Then vote Elena.

As if this is the only reason I'm voting you

[Sesq]

Um...maybe...but it's ridiculous. Thinking something is insincere, especially when I was, excruciatingly, changing my posting style, is a bad case. Operating in that persona - in which I did not consider the fact that my posting style was fake because that was the style I was playing at the time - I was sincere in what I stated. It's also why, when I alt slipped, I rephrased my read in my normal style

Also, in terms of other insincere votes that postdated that supposed insincere vote...have you seen any of our resident lurker's votes? Maybe ISO Riley/Uzi/MB and get back to me.

It's like you're desperately trying to get back into character again. Ok.

Also, deflection, it won't work on me (though MB has been very quiet)

[Sesq]

^

This is why you are a frustrating and needy player. You cbf'd to even read the responses I've made to MoI. Guess what? I've made them, and I'm sure as shit not going to redo it for someone who I think is scum with the person I'm refuting.

I'm about <>this close<> to being done with this crap.

I actually have read them, and all you do is say that he's twisting words without actually pointing out specifically where or providing evidence.

You're the person whose posts I read

first.

Also, if you cannot present evidence, you have no evidence. Simple as that.

[Sesq]

Except that I did point it out, but, as I stated, you can't see it. Scumshades are blinding.

Where? It's soooo obvious, right? This should be easy for you

[Sesq]

Ugh. I keep trying but it's too infuriating not to respond to. Done talking to Sesq...again.

Confirmed scum at this point.

[Sesq]

I've said that Magna pushed for a Lowell lynch because he thought Lowell was scummiest-looking. Not implausible.

Also, I find it interesting you're describing us as SvT.

Also, what you said was an argument from popularity, as your context was in that because people agreed with you on me being scum, that means I'm scum, which is always a stupid argument. Also, you never made any point about No-lynch. Ever. This is out of nowhere.

Why do you find it interesting that Nebula's describing the two of you as SvT?
And why are you saying that thing about no-lynch? I feel like you were trying to start an argument there, because all Nebula seemed to be implying was that if it wasn't for the derailment to Lowell, you would have been lynched by default.

As for my interest in him describing it as SvT, it's more of a "lol hes obvscum" thing more than any constructive observation. As for no-lynch, I don't think it would ever have won, and as for my wagon vs. Neb's, I think either of us could have been lynched and I really don't care too much now.

It sounded more like you were trying to suggest he had made a slip of some kind, and are now backing down on that. And you dodged my question about why you made a point of saying that thing about no-lynch.

I didn't actually think it was a real slip though, it was confbiased circlejerking and I thought that was very apparent. As for me mentioning no-lynch, it's because he mentioned it and I replied to it.

Actually, if we pulled together people who were split amongst you and hiraki, and had a few less people rarely active, we could have had a lynch on you going.

Those votes weren't split. They were all on Nebula, all but one moved to Hiraki, then they all moved back to Nebula.

Nah, look back, there was some split, but not necessarily enough combined to get a lynch going at that time.

[Sesq]

Source for that last bit?

[Sesq]

It was that he was referring to NL as a discussed possibility, and painting people who wanted it as scum, when I had not previously seen NL brought up this game, and that's where the confusion started.

[Sesq]

Nebula can you point out the things you wamted me to see in those ISOs? I did look at them but failed to find something relevant.

Um...their "insincere" votes. Pretty sure that was stated.

buzzwords

give us evidence

[Sesq]

Nebula can you point out the things you wamted me to see in those ISOs? I did look at them but failed to find something relevant.

Um...their "insincere" votes. Pretty sure that was stated.

buzzwords

give us evidence

Yeah. Toto's buzzword. But, you don't read so whatevs.

Give us evidence.

[Sesq]

Give us evidence.

Not giving you shit, and since Toto's "insincerity" is based on his subjective reads, he can go read their votes himself. Can't provide evidence for subjectives.

You can't provide empirical evidence, but if you have an opinion on something you have reasons for it, and those you should prevent.

Also, you wouldn't be giving ME things, you'd be giving THE TOWN things, I just happen to be who's asking for it. Refusing to give me information is refusing to give town information, which is at the very least, IMMENSELY anti-town.

[Sesq]

Please explain your subjective reads. I did not find whatever it is you saw there. I really want to townread you but you are not scumhunting beyond calling Sesq and MoI scum back to them, and then jumping on counter wagons for little reasons when they have presented.

You're right. I haven't had much time between defending myself and getting pissed off at Sesq's continual barbs.

Spoiler: Whatever Wall

Not sure how you don't see these votes at as least at the same level as my "insincere" vote:

Screamy-no-real-reason girl:

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

Well, turns out I can. And I did.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: LOWELL

NEBULA YOU'RE LUCKY YA SCUM PARTNER SCREWED UP!!! DIE LOWEL!!!!

All naked vote guy:

VOTE: Sesq

VOTE: Magna

Lurky Box:

I don't want to lynch nebula toDay.

VOTE: Sesq

Sticking with this for now:

VOTE: Sesq

Also, I think you're trying to read me as PP. That's not how I'm approaching this game, despite changing from the forced playstyle.

nope, not gonna let up on you

also the luv posts are pretty heavily out of context, he had walls before those votes kinda going through the people he'd vote

not totally justified always but there is some content

also, riley's only had 2 yelly posts out of like, 70

[Sesq]

Please explain your subjective reads. I did not find whatever it is you saw there. I really want to townread you but you are not scumhunting beyond calling Sesq and MoI scum back to them, and then jumping on counter wagons for little reasons when they have presented.

You're right. I haven't had much time between defending myself and getting pissed off at Sesq's continual barbs.

Spoiler: Whatever Wall

Not sure how you don't see these votes at as least at the same level as my "insincere" vote:

Screamy-no-real-reason girl:

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: KAIN TEEPS!!!!!!!!!

SELF VOTING IS SCUMMY!!!!!

Well, turns out I can. And I did.

I DON'T BELIEVE YOU AT ALL!!!!!!!!!

VOTE: LOWELL

NEBULA YOU'RE LUCKY YA SCUM PARTNER SCREWED UP!!! DIE LOWEL!!!!

All naked vote guy:

VOTE: Sesq

VOTE: Magna

Lurky Box:

I don't want to lynch nebula toDay.

VOTE: Sesq

Sticking with this for now:

VOTE: Sesq

Also, I think you're trying to read me as PP. That's not how I'm approaching this game, despite changing from the forced playstyle.

nope, not gonna let up on you

also the luv posts are pretty heavily out of context, he had walls before those votes kinda going through the people he'd vote

not totally justified always but there is some content

also, riley's only had 2 yelly posts out of like, 70

Do you see why I can't stand you. You can't keep your trap shut for even a few other people to post on my content without having to butt in and bring this back to a tunneling 1v1 bitch match. Shut it.

lol i literally dont give a shit

this is a game where we're trying to find out who scum are, and i'm just trying to correct your logic so we can better do that

your attitudes toward me are incredibly anti-town

[Sesq]

Then stop being disingenuous and tunneling which are incredibly anti-town.

Riley has had more than 2 yelly posts which are easily seen on ISO. LUV provides little context, so it is most definitely not "heavily out of context." Also, note you said nothing about MB.

So stuff it, and let others respond.

where have i been disingenuous? also tunneling implies i'm going only after one person, even tho im trying to respond to everybody equally

as for your points on each person, that isnt a response, thats what i said, and yes hes a lurker.

[Sesq]

Literally in your above 2 posts. You are not responding to everyone equally...that is also disingenuous. My points are a response and you are again disingenuous.

You have earned a place on my player/mod blacklist with one other person. Congrats!

You still will not lynch me, and you continue to distract from the game by not stuffing it. Stuff it.

Because in my last two posts, the only other active person was you and Toto, and he was asking things I would like to be answered.

Unless this is an act I'm surprised you've been able to stay on this site with that short a fuse.

[Sesq]

Literally in your above 2 posts. You are not responding to everyone equally...that is also disingenuous. My points are a response and you are again disingenuous.

You have earned a place on my player/mod blacklist with one other person. Congrats!

You still will not lynch me, and you continue to distract from the game by not stuffing it. Stuff it.

Because in my last two posts, the only other active person was you and Toto, and he was asking things I would like to be answered.

Unless this is an act I'm surprised you've been able to stay on this site with that short a fuse.

Oh, my, god. I'm starting to think you truly don't have any idea what you are saying/responding to. Like, contextually, you aren't getting it.

P.S. You really should look into sitemeta more.

[Sesq]

Hi everyone!!!! I'm back!!! I was very very busy wif valentines day <3 <3 <3 I ate tooons of chocs!!! I would post a picture of my full riley belly here but my friends said I shouldnt :c

Anywaysies!!!! I really really liked BBTs and magny's cases!!! I think sesq is town now <3 Thanks for convincing me BBT!!!!

@Toto: you're right!!!! I should be voting nebby!!!

I think BBT made some good points against elena!!! But I think nebby is more likely to be scum so I wanna eat nebby up first.

Toto and Sesq!!!! I gotta ask ya, have ya reads not changed at all since D1? That's weird!!! owo

My major scumread being Nebula? Nah, not really, his play has never really done anything to change my mind. However, my reads on other people have shifted somewhat, namely being more suspicious of Elena and MB today. Nebula has remained my largest scumread, so *shurg*

Hey Music Box – who is scum? You seem to be doing a lot of nitpicky pointless debating with Sesq and defending of Nebula without committing to pretty much anyone else as a suspect. Why is that Town behavior?

I'm concentrating on Sesq because I believe she's most likely to be scum and I don't want her to slip off the hook. I've also got a mild scum read on Elena but I don't think she's scum with Sesq. My other reads are varying degrees of town apart from Riley, who I do need to follow up on due to her Day 1 voting, promising to vote Sesq but never actually committing then jumping on the Lowell wagon near the end. I think she has a good chance of being scum.

How is that behavior scummy at all? They found a wagon they agreed to and went to it.

Thanks, Creature. So, because today has devolved into a Sesq not allowing me to speak with others without interjecting with her shit and MoI is a word twisting wall I keep hitting my head against but with no sound response, coupled with the fact that I'm almost certain that someone will lolhammer at L-1......

Sesq, you can go get bent.

I'm the Doctor.

And, no Toto, I was not softing D1 - and I had to play scummier than I intended because of your anti-town (or pro-scum) insistence that I had softed. So you can go get bent as well. I don't think a game has ever made me as angry as this one.

You may all focus elsewhere now.

No.

YOU are not allowing yourself to speak to others. Instead of addressing anyone's legitimate points, you prefer to throw flame at me. Your incapability to answer to legitimate inquiries, or create ones yourself, is entirely on you. Also, your MoI "word twisting" accusation is still unbacked.

And no, I'm not going to stop focusing on you, ESPECIALLY when we get that counterclaim.

[Sesq]

I hope we do get a CC. Then when I flip Doc we have guaranteed scum.

You wanna CC me? Pretty please?

VOTE: Sesq

There is no way that both you and Magna are town, and I just want you on principle at this point.

Nope, already claimed VT a while back. Since your doc claim, we can only verify that Hapa and I have seen that claim, so he's probably not a doctor (and im def not one), but there are like 9 other people and hidden within that pool is most likely the actual doctor.

PEDIT: HAHAAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA

This is the funniest counterclaim I have ever seen. And that is just some excellent breadcrumbing ability with the first letters in the paragraph. I'm dying.

Nebula is officially confirmed scum. You can't fight with that claim of his.

[Sesq]

I protected Elena.

Only came out after being asked by the real doctor

[Sesq]

No, you're right I can't. That's why I said well played. However, my flip will show my actual role and Magna will be quicklynched tomorrow. Town should quick lynch you next.

I'm actually glad to be out of this game, and glad I'm getting scum in doing so. This will be good for town in the long run since the toxic you/me will be gone and one scum is out.

Well yeah, if you do flip town then I'd consider going after Magna, however at this point you seem like the most viable lynch (and someone who wants to be lynched).

Also, just FYI, breadcrumbing is something scum will do in a known setup so that they can point back to it in CC and L-1 situations. But, whatevs.

Yes, but he's been playing fairly town the whole game while your whole case against him is based upon lies, so it would make more sense for this to be legit.

PEDIT: Lol, nebula's self-voting. Anyway, I agree with Hiraki that we should look into Elena or BBT, preferably the former.

PEDIT: The witch is dead, I believe.

[Sesq]

Holy shit. I think I know why he was an alt now.

That was probably one of the best trolls ever done. Or he's legitimately terrible leaning the former. That said, I keep my promises

No, you're right I can't. That's why I said well played. However, my flip will show my actual role and Magna will be quicklynched tomorrow. Town should quick lynch you next.

I'm actually glad to be out of this game, and glad I'm getting scum in doing so. This will be good for town in the long run since the toxic you/me will be gone and one scum is out.

Well yeah, if you do flip town then I'd consider going after Magna, however at this point you seem like the most viable lynch (and someone who wants to be lynched).

VOTE: MagnaOfIllusion

Have fun digging your way out of this.

[Sesq]

And LUV was killed, damn.

I need to rethink the entire game now.