Open 688: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

1. Correct but being wrong this vocally makes you mislynch bait. I have been firm in not voting either you or Math for a reason. You're both town. You get a Math lynch, I am not going to be able to haul your ass out of the fire.

Don't worry about hauling my ass out of the fire. Let me worry about that. We've got RC and Paul who know that a Math town flip doesn't mean that I'm scum. You apparently are convinced that I'm town. I obviously won't self-vote. That's 4 of the 9 remaining players after Math's lynch. One may die at Night, but that still leaves 3 of 8. That means literally everyone else has to vote me tomorrow to mislynch me. Considering Gmma's townread on me and RC, I really don't see that happening. Don't pretend like you are protecting me from myself, cause what you're actually doing is protecting Math from me.

I am doing both. Because guess what I don't townread RC.

Well stop. Let me worry about me. I don't want you worrying about me and I don't need you worrying about me. I'm not getting lynched tomorrow, even if Math flips town. It's not happening. Guaran-fucking-teed.

[Kelvin Smith]

i can manipulate you because it mattered to me enough as a player to learn what makes you tick. why did you never care enough to do the same?

And you're trying to manipulate me now regardless of alignment in a slimy way.

You also know I am slower to pick up on things like that.

I don't like being manipulated RC.

no this is me trying to have a conversation with you

in case you hadnt realized you never pick up on me actually manipulating you.

are you slower or have you never tried?

When you start insulting me saying I never try to work with you or solve you, it is manipulating. You're trying to guilt me into conclusions that have no basis in the thread.

You want to talk to me about Math scum. We can do that. Leave the politicking out of it.

First, why hasn't Navy wagon taken off if Math is scum?

It's not meant as an insult. I genuinely feel exactly the fucking same as RC right now. It feels like you preach cooperation, but practice totalitarian rule. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh to you, but it's what it fucking feels like.

Maybe because Navy is also scum? Alternatively, it's entirely possible that it hasn't taken off because of a combination of inactivity and a block of town voters who actively prefer a Math lynch. The thing is, if I had acquiesced earlier, you probably could've easily gotten that Navy lynch. On the other hand, even if you had given in on Math, getting the support would have still been difficult, though not impossible.

No. I cannot even discuss reads with you and get anything beyond Math is scum and you should listen. We aren't cooperating because there's no dialogue from you. No willingness to consider you might be wrong despite me making every effort to plan as if I am both right and wrong.

I'm fucking tired of you implicitly calling me a fucking liar every time you say this. I've constantly considered that I could be wrong about Math, but I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't matter if I'm wrong, because even if I am, all intellectually honest players (i.e. those who don't consider you conftown without hard evidence) will learn your alignment if Math flips town.

The town block mostly was on Navy until Vedith said to hell with this game. Gamma is leaning towards Navy. You're being stubborn about lynching Math because they claimed an innocent.

You think I care about what your townbloc thinks? I don't trust any of them, you included, either in terms of alignment or judgment.

Yes, in this setup, Cops that claim innocents should be lynched as a best practice. It confirms town (who can receive Doc protection) and roots out any scum trying to buddy/protect their partners. It's arguably the best way to utilize them in this setup.

If Navy is also scum, then why are you so adamant about not lynching them? Math can never ever turn on me ever. I can force them to vote first according to proper lylo play if they are scum. They can be forced to not go off the deep end.

I said Navy could also be scum. I was adamant then because Math's lynch gave us more info on a mislynch, but I'm adamant now because of principle.

If you're wrong and I'm wrong, the game is over anyway because Navy will never vote.

If we're both wrong, the game is still winable, we just have to course correct. And if we lose? Oh well. It's the wages of our efforts.

[Kelvin Smith]

then you missed the point of the story.

Enlighten me.

@Kevin, All it takes is one town idiot or you pushing another mislynch for it to be gg tomorrow.

It's still not gonna happen.

[Kelvin Smith]

scum aren't ever as predictable as you expect them to be: your subset of reads based off of 'scum would do x' are never right

And now you're talking down to me. My reads on town are usually right. My scum ones can be wrong from time to time. You've been wrong too. I believe even Cerb has it in his sig.

Your reads on town are usually right by virtue of the statistical advantage you wield when you call people town. There are more of them than scum. If you can't call scum right, then it implies you must presumably also call scum town from time to time.

[Kelvin Smith]

I cannot stop Gamma or Alban from voting you Kelvin. I can't force that.

So lynching Math is game over. Doubly so if RC is town.

Remember that thing where you are willing to consider a world where Math is town? Bullshit. Because you are saying that a Math lynch is inherently game over.

Gamma isn't going to lynch me though. And even if I did, you don't have to force jack shit. You're not the only damn player in the game, so you don't have to pull all the goddamn strings. Let me fucking handle myself. I'm not a goddamn child.

[Kelvin Smith]

Best practice is to never lynch a cop with a result. Period. It PoEs scum and forces every one of their nightkills.

See, that's just inherently wrong. Sure, that's often true with full Cops. But limited shot Cops and/or Cops that people believe are scum sometimes need to get lynched to prove their results. Scum have little motivation to kill a claimed Cop and confirm their results to be true. That gains them nothing.

Kelvin, I thrive on my townblocks. My townblocks are what tell me what is and isn't possible. I talk with them to filter my reads and see if I am off the deep end. So yes, I value Gamma's opinion. The better my block, the better my reads. So when you say you don't care about my block, you've learned nothing. You remember how I defended Boon in girls girls girls. I was right there.

You understand that Boon was scum, right...?

Also, I'm not necessarily even saying they are a bad thing (though they are dangerous), I'm saying that this specific one is not filled with people I trust. Though I don't know who is in it. Gamma seems alright, but I have a hard time trusting either you or Math. And again, even if the alignment of a townbloc is all town, the judgment exercised can still be poor.

Math gives us zero information as no one SRs me. Sure players might be annoyed with me, but scumread, no.

Just because people don't scumread you now, doesn't mean they never will. And just because you townread/scumread somebody, doesn't mean you should take it for granted that you are right. Reads are so stupid because people do make that assumption though. You can operate assuming you are right, but you should always be prepared to be wrong. You want to talk about intellectual honesty? That's what intellectual honesty actually is.

You really think you'll course correct after forcing down a mislynch? You want to depend on Navy voting correctly in lylo when I am usually their rock and I'll be dead and if they are town they'll hate your guts (in game). No, she'd vote you without a second thought.

Why would you be dead? If you're town, you are Docable. And no, I don't think it'll go down like that.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin:
"If Math Flips Town, all Docs on Titus and all Cops on Navy.
If Math flips scum, All Docs on Gamma and all Cops on alban."

This won't fly.
1. If Math flips town, why should cops be on Navy? They should be on you or RC coz you are the ones pushing their lynch.
2. If Math flips scum, why should the cops be on me? They should obviously be on Titus who is fighting to stop their lynch.

1. Pushing a bad lynch doesn't imply scum. There were easier lynches and we've both pushed the hell out of this lynch. But notice how both the Math and Navy wagons have stalled out. To me, that's indicative that maybe scum legitimately don't like either. And you pushing for inherently bad Coppings strengthens RC's case on you.

2. Likewise, Titus can make poor decisions and still be town. It's true she's defending the hell out of Math and that's suspect. But this Navy wagon stalling out is also suspect.

Okay. If I am going to be a suspect regardless of what I do, I am not gonna vote for Math/Navy. You can take support from other parties. My vote is fine where it is. At this point in the game, I will play based on my beliefs rather than yours/Titus's/RC's. I was ready to vote for Math, but you are very cleverly safeguarding your interests either coz of your playstyle or coz you are a scum.

Why would you ever not be a suspect, regardless of your vote? You realize that I should rightfully be a suspect too right? Don't act like voting on the right wagon makes you town and only those on the wrong wagon are scum.

Don't give me this "I was gonna do it, but then you fucked up" things. RC is a vanity wagon and you know it, so if you want to throw your vote away, rather than try to help the town, then of course you are going to meet some suspicion.

My two cents: My suggestion to the cops will be regardless of who turns out to be what at the lynch's end, they should cop Kelvin/Titus/RC tonight so that there's at least one confirmed player who can drive the game. These three are being active and giving out a vibe that they know what they are doing. Till I am not sure about their alignment, I can't trust their plan. I think the hierarchy should be RC>Titus>Kelvin, and then the town should tomorrow do more or less what the confirmed townie feels is right. The danger in copping inactive players or players who are not in a position to drive the game is that even if you know their alignment, so what? Like if you cop me, and know that I am town, how is it going to affect the game? At this point, it might be good for everyone to know the alignment of a driven player rather than for a driven player to know the alignment of an inactive one. That way even the driven player will derive more traction.

No, this is bad. Confirmed town =/= right, first of all. Town can and are wrong all the time. Second of all, a Cop in this setup is unable to confirm anybody tomorrow, because they could be fake. If there is scum among us, you're basically telling scum to fakeclaim and say that the scum is town, which will drive mislynches. If you're town, help either Navy or Math get lynched, because any lynch is better than no lynch right now.

[Kelvin Smith]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Kelvin, Intellectual honesty is about acknowledging ones biases. I am prone to pride, so I try to counter that by discussing with my townblock. It also means applying the same standard.

No, it's not. It's not about acknowledging one's biases, though it's partially about not letting one's biases impede the search for truth, which admittedly requires one to acknowledge their own biases.

If somebody presents their faith in you as town as though it were actual proof that you are town, that person is being intellectually dishonest.

You've argued you're not getting lynched or killed. I'm very aware bith of us may die. You're acting as if being wrong only has consequences for me. I'm not wrong though.

No. I'm asking you to respect me enough as an intelligent human being to let me handle the consequences of my being wrong. I'll certainly welcome your help, if i am wrong, but you taking all of the responsibility as though you alone are in control of my destiny is simply not okay.

[Kelvin Smith]

We agree on Kelvin lock town. Let's start there.

I'm going to stop you right there. It doesn't matter that I know I'm town. It doesn't matter that I'm obviously town. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense for me to be anything else but town. Don't lock me as town unless you have the hard data to back it up. That's just good policy.

[Kelvin Smith]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

there are a limited # of scum to fakeclaim cop. we arent just gonna lynch inno claims, we are lynching math because scumfuck

Yeah, but every Cop lynched means one more that can be scum. With Math dead, that likely leaves 1 of 4 Cops as scum. Now it's totally true that this means we're more likely to lynch town than scum when there is an innocent, but it's the only way to stop scum from faking innocents. And it means that every guilty we get is that much more likely to be true.

[Kelvin Smith]

Alright, unless something non-circular is said here, I'm done with this game for the night. It's going nowhere and neither is my Math vote. Same for tomorrow, since a No Lynch is all but guaranteed at this point. The only way I'm voting anybody other than MathBlade is if a Cop gives me an innocent on MathBlade, in which case I'm voting that scumfuck Cop.

[Kelvin Smith]

we aren't copping in the doc claims, period. a cop on a cop confirms the cop and the result.

and no, I said it wasn't because I didn't feel like picking a fight. I will happily show you the pm i sent to the mod while replacing out in postgame

It doesn't though. A lynch on a Cop confirms the result. Cop on Docs, lynch Cops on innocent, lynch Docs on guilty. Confirmed town gets protection.

there are a limited # of scum to fakeclaim cop. we arent just gonna lynch inno claims, we are lynching math because scumfuck

Yeah, but every Cop lynched means one more that can be scum. With Math dead, that likely leaves 1 of 4 Cops as scum. Now it's totally true that this means we're more likely to lynch town than scum when there is an innocent, but it's the only way to stop scum from faking innocents. And it means that every guilty we get is that much more likely to be true.

Where the hell did 1 of 4 cops come from?

Two scum in Cops, 1 in Doc. Both RC and I have already said we believe this is the most likely scenario.

Scum can fake innocents all they want as they link each other.

We want to stop fake guilties. Fake innocents mean chain lynches.

Scum can normally fake innocents easily, but not when the town policy lynches any Cop that comes to it with an Innocent. Scum Cops can only fake a Guilty in LyLo under that policy, or they trade 1 for 1, which is bad for them.

[Kelvin Smith]

Alright, unless something non-circular is said here, I'm done with this game for the night. It's going nowhere and neither is my Math vote. Same for tomorrow, since a No Lynch is all but guaranteed at this point. The only way I'm voting anybody other than MathBlade is if a Cop gives me an innocent on MathBlade, in which case I'm voting that scumfuck Cop.

Gee, saying why Math is scum just isn't going to happen is it?

Maybe I'm just overestimating Math's town abilities, but I assume that they are capable of more than OMGUS. If not, my mistake. But I'm doubting that's actually the case.

I think Math is scum and either knows that you are also scum or knows they have you wrapped so tightly around their little finger that there is no way you would ever turn on them. Either way, they are free to spew whatever nonsensical, OMGUS bullshit they want unchecked. It's honestly a pretty great system for Math regardless. And if you're town and Math is scum, then you really need to start considering this more deeply in the future.

[Kelvin Smith]

this game makes me understand why people feel the way they do about you.

While I get what you mean, I still feel like that was an unnecessarily harsh way of putting it. I get it, tensions are high right now, but that just felt really mean-spirited.

[Kelvin Smith]

How do you feel about alban needing to take a stance on Navy?

Who, me?

The fact that alban won't support either wagon makes me feel like he's really greedy scum who refuses to bus either of his teammates, and he's just acting like indignant town in order to justify staying off a bus. Main problem with that is it goes against my 2 Cops, 1 Doc theory, but I'm willing to acknowledge that may be inaccurate.

[Kelvin Smith]

No, fuck it. If RC quits, so do I. Join us, Paul. We'll get Math tomorrow, come hell or high water.

UNVOTE: MathBlade
VOTE: Navy

[Kelvin Smith]

Mathblade <--- Vedith cops
RadiantCowbells <--- Gamma cops
Navy <---- lynched
Paul <--- NJAC cops
Vedith <---- Paul cops

Why is this the correct play? We need a guilty on Math tomorrow. Otherwise, we'll probably mislynch. I like the idea of all Cops on Math to make extra fucking sure.

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

Okay, so you're going to hold the whole fucking game hostage because you can't get your way, right?

We want to lynch Math? Titus isn't okay with this because we picked someone she townreads. No lynch.
We very begrudgingly accept a Navy lynch? Titus isn't okay with this because we aren't smiling about it. No Lynch.
The only way we're allowed to have a lynch is if we agree to your lynch in a very specific way. That's fucking trash.

[Kelvin Smith]

I highly doubt we'll have more than a Cop or two Night 3 anyway, so I'm fine having them on Math if it means we'll actually get a Math lynch tomorrow.

@Titus: If a Cop has a guilty on Math, will you lynch Math?

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

Okay, so you're going to hold the whole fucking game hostage because you can't get your way, right?

We want to lynch Math? Titus isn't okay with this because we picked someone she townreads. No lynch.
We very begrudgingly accept a Navy lynch? Titus isn't okay with this because we aren't smiling about it. No Lynch.
The only way we're allowed to have a lynch is if we agree to your lynch in a very specific way. That's fucking trash.

So either I'm a jerk because I won't accept you feeling bullied or I am a jerk for letting you be bullied into a lynch you don't want. That's a no win scenario.

The problem is, you refusing to lynch Navy doesn't somehow mean that we haven't been bullied. It just means that we've been bullied and denied a lynch.

Look, there's no arguing that RC and I didn't also try to use strongarm tactics. We're not in the right for that. But you're also not in the right because of your stonewalling us and breaking our spirits. What's done is done though. I'm choosing to place my vote on Navy because unlike you, I find a no lynch to be an unacceptable result. An undesirable lynch is almost always better than no lynch. And Navy isn't even that bad of a candidate, just way worse than Math.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm letting you guys know right now that if Cops aren't on Math tonight, I'm likely voting Math tomorrow if there isn't a Guilty on somebody else. So let's just not beat around the bush and Cop Math.

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: Navy

Nope. Not lynching Navy if y'all feel bullied into doing it rather than honest communication happening.

Fuck that, Titus. You don't get to dictate why we vote just so you can make yourself feel better about forcing our hands. You can have our conviction or you can have our Navy votes, but you don't get both.

Well the we no lynch. I don't bully anyone into anything. We will talk this out. We will find the scum doctor.

Okay, so you're going to hold the whole fucking game hostage because you can't get your way, right?

We want to lynch Math? Titus isn't okay with this because we picked someone she townreads. No lynch.
We very begrudgingly accept a Navy lynch? Titus isn't okay with this because we aren't smiling about it. No Lynch.
The only way we're allowed to have a lynch is if we agree to your lynch in a very specific way. That's fucking trash.

So either I'm a jerk because I won't accept you feeling bullied or I am a jerk for letting you be bullied into a lynch you don't want. That's a no win scenario.

The problem is, you refusing to lynch Navy doesn't somehow mean that we haven't been bullied. It just means that we've been bullied and denied a lynch.

Look, there's no arguing that RC and I didn't also try to use strongarm tactics. We're not in the right for that. But you're also not in the right because of your stonewalling us and breaking our spirits. What's done is done though. I'm choosing to place my vote on Navy because unlike you, I find a no lynch to be an unacceptable result. An undesirable lynch is almost always better than no lynch. And Navy isn't even that bad of a candidate, just way worse than Math.

Great. Where have you felt bullied aside from me not caving?

I feel no lynch is acceptable if no one wants a lynch. Bullied lynches are on town.

So let's hear RC out on alban being scum doctor

There's a huge difference between not caving and saying "it's my way or the highway." You're willing to grind the game to a halt and stop our ability to lynch because you won't allow us to lynch your townread for legitimate reasons. We're willing to compromise lynch because we're tired of fighting you on this and the deadline is looming. It's now or never and I'd rather it be now than never. If you want, I can fucking lie to you and say that I suddenly think Navy is the right choice.

[Kelvin Smith]

Look, if you're gonna be obstinate about this No Lynch thing, I can just replace out, if you want. Maybe my replacement will be more receptive to your line of reasoning.

[Kelvin Smith]

Titus, if you are gonna be obstinate about lynching me, I can just replace out

Hey, alban. Now you're the one being a dick. I'm serious.

[Kelvin Smith]

We agree on Kelvin lock town. Let's start there.

I'm going to stop you right there. It doesn't matter that I know I'm town. It doesn't matter that I'm obviously town. It doesn't matter that it doesn't make sense for me to be anything else but town. Don't lock me as town unless you have the hard data to back it up. That's just good policy.

Excuse me but you were on Titus' case for saying no to lynching Math because that wasn't a good info lynch for her.

How are those two things incompatible? I don't want Titus to avoid lynches because she thinks they won't give people information and I also don't want her to give me locktown status without actually having information that confirms me as town. Those are logically consistent statements.

[Kelvin Smith]

I thought of a solid idea. We lynch in docs today and we make a cop chain. Here's a starting chain.
Vedith cops Math
I cop Vedith
Paul cops me
NJAC/replacement cops Paul

I don't know why people don't realize the severe holes in the line of reasoning to suggest each Cop only has one target.

[Kelvin Smith]

...RC I have told Titus this and she doesn't get it. I am getting ready for bed please don't fight I don't want to read miles of RC Titus Spam in the morning.

Remember how I said I didn't want to read miles of spam. This definitely qualifies. Navy Alban Kelvin all scums.

Then fucking vote Navy, since you can actually get a lynch there.

[Kelvin Smith]

Titus, if you are gonna be obstinate about lynching me, I can just replace out

Hey, alban. Now you're the one being a dick. I'm serious.

It was a joke.
Going by that logic, are you being a dick for posting this?

That's your perception and you are entitled to that

, but according to me, out of the six points you mentioned in 2055, there was only one decent point (detailed in 2057). Yeah, Math could be scum, but not for the reasons you mentioned. In fact, your hard push on Math for reasons so weak pushed me away from voting for Math.

That's your perception and you are entitled to that.

When all is said and done though, I'll prove my reasoning to be the best. And if you don't want the Day to end in a NL, you're probably going to have to come around to Math.

I understand that it was a joke. But it was a joke making fun of the fact that I'm so frustrated by the people in this game, that I'm prepared to replace out so that it can move forward. You'll notice I never made fun of you when you wanted to replace out. So yeah, it's kind of a dick move on your part.

[Kelvin Smith]

My thought is by making the line we make it really hard for scum to hide as with proper execution we have more Town given results than scum given

Yes, that's what everyone keeps saying, but it doesn't pass the sniff test. Scum have absolute knowledge of which of those claims are real and which (if any) of those targets are dangerous to them. In addition, unless all of the Cops are acting tonight (which they probably) aren't, then they'll have a decent amount time to clean up the ones that are threats.

When we have all Cops on a single high value target for a given Night, we increase the chances of actually getting actionable data on said target. Do we increase the chance of overlap? Sure.

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

[Kelvin Smith]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

[Kelvin Smith]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

Guess what? Paul is scum.

And if we dedicate the cops, we solve this anyway. If we direct a heal to me tonight, I can ensure Math gets copped on n4 but it's still a waste. You convinced yourself of strategy and used that to fuel a read.

What is your alban read?

I refuse to agree to a heal being dedicated to you tonight until I know that you're town and I don't want a Cop anywhere but Math. I'm giving you Navy, so I need you to give me this. I'd rather we heal Gamma.

Don't expect anything other than sporadic posting today. Gonna be very busy all day.

[Kelvin Smith]

Wait why is Paul scum?

Coasting tbh. He's following all the major pushes yet not invested in saying who is town and working with them.

Show me two Cops with a Math Innocent result tomorrow and I'll lynch Paul on the spot.

[Kelvin Smith]

But it's worth the risk when certain targets threaten to rip apart town cohesion and make victory nigh impossible.

*sigh* Other than not agreeing with you, how is town cohesion being ripped apart?

VOTE: Navy

Math threatens to rip apart town cohesion by merely existing while not being Copped by multiple Cops. As long as Paul, RC, and I are alive, we're probably going to suspect Math. You refuse to lynch them (which I'm whatever about at this point), but then you also oppose dedicating more than paltry resources to confirming their alignment for the benefit of us.

Guess what? Paul is scum.

And if we dedicate the cops, we solve this anyway. If we direct a heal to me tonight, I can ensure Math gets copped on n4 but it's still a waste. You convinced yourself of strategy and used that to fuel a read.

What is your alban read?

I refuse to agree to a heal being dedicated to you tonight until I know that you're town and I don't want a Cop anywhere but Math. I'm giving you Navy, so I need you to give me this. I'd rather we heal Gamma.

Don't expect anything other than sporadic posting today. Gonna be very busy all day.

On the condition if I die, you don't lynch Math without a guilty on them. Then I am ok with a heal on Gamma.

Okay. If Cops are dedicated to Math tonight, then I will agree to this 100%. I give my word. On an Innocent, I'll lynch Paul.

[Kelvin Smith]

I think we can get Kelvin's vote
Gamma seems like he's coming around

There'll be no deadlines while we're missing both Navy and NJAC slot, correct?

Please explain where we'll get the votes for this.

[Kelvin Smith]

if math wants to be town they can put their vote where their mouth is.

Omg an Alban wagon! Sign me up!

VOTE: Alban

Maybe I should get a job with normal hours more often.

This sketches me the fuck out and I don't know if that was Math's intent.

[Kelvin Smith]

okay so titus you have seen slots get busy and not push stuff for days and be town. this is not your first experience with this. you don't get to just determine that your narrative is 100% correct.

Nor do you get to determine my narrative is 100% wrong and yours is 100% right. I am testing alban scum by waiting on him.

RC isn't even saying that, but you kind of are.

[Kelvin Smith]

@RC, NJAC has been lurker scum since I got here. There's about zero chance he was doc saved

So if I understand this, you are saying scum team is Navy, NJAC, and Paul?

[Kelvin Smith]

They please :/

And lol like seriously unless the game is boned I wreck it on MS unless I fuck up. There's no way in hell I ham things up.

Like dude you townread me when Zakk SK claimed in that game for how long? Be real dude. If I was scum I'd be smoking your ass.

When did zakk claim SK?

[Kelvin Smith]

alban flips scum, math has spent the game calling him scum but prevented him from being wagoned, alban spent the entire game calling your sibling scum but has been defending them now that they're a real wagon

and that doesn't make you reconsider your position at all? that's called confbias and that's why I'm not taking your mathblade seriously any more than you're taking mine seriously.

At least ask questions before you misrepresent me.
I said, and repeatedly so, that I find Math scummy. But not for the reasons Kelvin proposed and wanted to lynch Math.
The only time I said no to any wagon was when Kelvin refused to improve their reasoning for lynching Math.
I don't wanna make the same mistake I did with Sesq when I gave in to the wagon and hammered Sesq. If you can't convince me with logic, why should I vote for someone just coz you are asking me to?

Because you allegedly also think that they are scummy? Like, I don't even understand how this is a fucking question unless you are taking a page out of my book and saying that all reads are always bullshit.

[Kelvin Smith]

The only question I really have right now is how greedy is Math as scum? Because I feel like opposing the Navy lynch and supporting the alban lynch is indicative that they are scum and town, respectively. But that would require Math to be so fucking greedy. But with an infinite free pass from Titus, maybe they just are that greedy.

[Kelvin Smith]

alban flips scum, math has spent the game calling him scum but prevented him from being wagoned, alban spent the entire game calling your sibling scum but has been defending them now that they're a real wagon

and that doesn't make you reconsider your position at all? that's called confbias and that's why I'm not taking your mathblade seriously any more than you're taking mine seriously.

At least ask questions before you misrepresent me.
I said, and repeatedly so, that I find Math scummy. But not for the reasons Kelvin proposed and wanted to lynch Math.
The only time I said no to any wagon was when Kelvin refused to improve their reasoning for lynching Math.
I don't wanna make the same mistake I did with Sesq when I gave in to the wagon and hammered Sesq. If you can't convince me with logic, why should I vote for someone just coz you are asking me to?

Because you allegedly also think that they are scummy? Like, I don't even understand how this is a fucking question unless you are taking a page out of my book and saying that all reads are always bullshit.

Kelvin, if you have a question, shoot. Otherwise, stop answering for other people.

I'm answering for other people now?

[Kelvin Smith]

They please :/

And lol like seriously unless the game is boned I wreck it on MS unless I fuck up. There's no way in hell I ham things up.

Like dude you townread me when Zakk SK claimed in that game for how long? Be real dude. If I was scum I'd be smoking your ass.

When did zakk claim SK?

When he claimed ascetic. He shoulda been policied.

alban wasn't even in the game at that point. Unless you are talking about me.

[Kelvin Smith]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

You find 6 people scummy in a 3 scum game with 10 people alive. So, what? You're just going to shut down all cooperation with every player or...?

[Kelvin Smith]

They please :/

And lol like seriously unless the game is boned I wreck it on MS unless I fuck up. There's no way in hell I ham things up.

Like dude you townread me when Zakk SK claimed in that game for how long? Be real dude. If I was scum I'd be smoking your ass.

When did zakk claim SK?

When he claimed ascetic. He shoulda been policied.

alban wasn't even in the game at that point. Unless you are talking about me.

I am talking about you. Seriously dude. Like if I was scum I would have you eating from my hand. I just don't give two fucks as I am Town and I am going to properly lynch you.

So, like, nobody brought up that whole policy thing. And I had no experience with Ascetics, since I hadn't played the game in 6 years and I don't even think they were a thing at the time. So I guess that makes me a fucking easily-swindled fool who could never catch you because of your superior scum play.

Fuck it, we're without a real wagon right now, so I'm putting my vote back where it belongs unless this Navy thing happens.

UNVOTE: Navy
VOTE: MathBlade

[Kelvin Smith]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

You find 6 people scummy in a 3 scum game with 10 people alive. So, what? You're just going to shut down all cooperation with every player or...?

Yes, I do. And since I am town, it's natural to not know anything apart from my own identity and hence be a skeptic about everything everyone says!

So you've been playing for this whole fucking game and your conclusion is that 6 out of the 9 players besides you can't be trusted enough to even vote on the same wagon as them?

[Kelvin Smith]

RC, I'm totally coming around on this alban thing. If there are enough votes, I'll hammer.

[Kelvin Smith]

Fuck this fucking farce.

UNVOTE: MathBlade
VOTE: alban

[Kelvin Smith]

HE HAS DONE THAT.

ARE YOU READING HIS POSTS?

And you know that without asking me a single question.
I have already said that I find 6 people scummy.
Now if you were not one of them, maybe I would have gone ahead with your choice.
But both you and Kelvin are scummy for me. At least your slots were. So, I am not gonna listen to your choices even if there is a considerable overlap between our choices.

Who are these 6? Which of the docs is scum?

Here:

D1 lynch was

Commknight (doc).

Wagon: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul,

Sesq (doc)

, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere.

D2 lynch was

Sesq (doc).

Wagon:

MuttonChopMagic

, Titus,

Vedith (LunaeCinere)

,

NotTheRealPaul

,

Mathblade (Hellfire Missile)

,

Navy (Cooperative Sheep)

, alban

People on both the wagons are indicated in red in the D2 list. Confirmed townies are in green.

D1 lynch was achieved on June 2nd. Till June 1st, only 3 people were on it. Last 4 jumped on it in the last few hours. Last 3 on the D1 wagon are common in both the wagons. So, they obviously need more attention. In the absence of anything else, I would lynch in those 3.

Why did no one die on N1?
There are three doc claims, in the chronological order of claiming:
Agent Sparkles protected NJAC.
Cooperative Sheep (Navy) protected Gamma (itlepip)
I protected Creature. My logic is elaborated in 689. Basically, there were a couple of players I didn't want to save, and out of the players who were reasonable enough townies for me, Creature had the maximum contribution to the game.

I am assuming Agent Sparkles and Cooperative Sheep have both done their research and have given reasonable logic for why they chose their targets.
Even if they are fakeclaiming, the choice of their protection will not tell us much about the veracity of their claims. What I mean is obviously they will name those people whom they were TR-ing on D1. So it's NAI. ISO-ing both of them shows just that. Both of them indeed strongly TR'd their targets.

But the choice of target to save based on how much they contributed can tell us something. Gamma contributed a lot, so I can understand Cooperative Sheep's choice. But what's not easy to digest is Agent Sparkle's choice in NJAC. Sure they placed NJAC as their strongest TR, but NJAC's contribution to the game has been dismal. Saving NJAC has two main problems: why would scum target NJAC for Agent Sparkles to waste their only save on a player like NJAC and waste their one power throughout the game? Secondly, what difference would it make to the game if NJAC was dead? Almost everyone was worthier enough to save. Different people could have different criteria to choose whom to save, but I don't understand why anyone would save NJAC. They had placed NJAC and LunaeCinere as their strongest townreads. If I was in their shoes, I would choose Lunae any day (even though as alban I would never do that coz she was my SR), coz she had more of an impact on the game than NJAC.

So

Agent Sparkles

is another suspect for me.

So, my vote will be on one of these:

MuttonChopMagic, Vedith (LunaeCinere), NotTheRealPaul, Mathblade (Hellfire Missile), Navy (Cooperative Sheep), Agent Sparkles.

This is more than half the people in the game at this point , but I am working at it. In next seven days, I will have dropped further names from this list to arrive at my final name.

Oh, shit, that's right. I forgot how bad that post looked.

[Kelvin Smith]

This is what being "a half decent human being" mean to you? You are such a closet passive-aggressive Kelvin, it's not even funny. Fuck off and don't ever fucking interact with me.

So now I'm not allowed to point out that a post looks suspect to me? It's a shady post. I didn't like it at the time and I don't like it now. I just forgot about it because it's been so long ago.

[Kelvin Smith]

RC, if I vote alban will you agree to cop Navy if he flips town?

Math issue solved when?

[Kelvin Smith]

Vedith please fucking listen if you're Town. I want to minimize stupid tunnels and following orders does that.

I'm really done listning.
I'm just going to do what I'm going to do.

Feel free to scum read me for it.

Doing something anti-town doesn't inherently make you scum. It just makes you problematic.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: alban

Trying to work together once he gets scumread thats some bs

It's certainly pretty damn suspect. I'll still play along with what he's saying for now, just to see if it can get us anywhere, because we're just spinning our wheels here.

[Kelvin Smith]

Giga!!! are u stalking me?

no - im actually stalking raybells

I'll be on this after work!

Do I need to read all 100 something pages or can someone give me the deets? I'll probably at least read from daystart on tho

That's still gonna leave you with about 52 pages of reading. Sorry about that...

There are a lot of things to discuss. I'll try to summarize as much as I can remember from the time I replaced in, which was around page 75. I'll try to do it quickly, because I've got a lot to do today.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am at L-2. Just in case someone wanted to remove their votes.
I am going to bed.

Not particularly. Maybe if you go up to L-1. But then again, if anybody were to quickhammer you, then they are going to be on the receiving end of one hell of a deathtunnel.

[Kelvin Smith]

This pretty much sumarizes my understanding of the game at this point. If anyone wants to fact check me, go for it.

Spoiler: Claims

alban: Doctor - Protected Creature slot Night 1
Gamma Emerald: Cop
gigabyteTroubadour: Cop
Kelvin Smith: Slot claimed Cop, switched claim to Doctor (Both on Day 2)
MathBlade: Cop - Innocent on Titus Night 2 (apparently)
Navy: Doctor - Her slot protected Gamma Emerald Night 1
NotTheRealPaul: Cop
RadiantCowbells: Doctor - His slot protected NJAC Night 1
Titus: Doctor
Vedith: Cop

Spoiler: Deaths

Day 1: CommKnight - Doctor
Night 1: No Kill
Day 2: Sesq - Doctor
Night 2: jjh927 (Creature slot) - Cop

Spoiler: Player Summary since Page 75

alban:

Thought most of the players were scummy. Claimed to be open to a Math lynch, but opposed to my reasoning for it. Called my reasons poor because of poorer reasons, still claims to have destroyed my argument. Became offended a couple times and almost replaced out, but decided to stay. Opposed to working with anyone because everyone is scummy. Willing to work with everyone now that his wagon is big (though he claims the reason for this is unrelated), despite still thinking they are all scummy. Still thinks most of the players are scummy.

Gamma Emerald:

Replaced back in after flaking earlier in the game. Initially thought RC was scum. Still has some concerns about RC, I believe. Mostly catchup posts upon replacing back in. I believe he currently thinks Navy or alban are most likely Doc scum. May not be opposed to a Math lynch, but doesn't seem to be his preference right now.

gigabyteTroubadour:

Slot has done nothing.

Kelvin Smith:

Replaced MuttonChopMagic. Said I wouldn't read the earlier parts of the game. Upon learning the current state of the claims, I suggested that the best strategic move would be to lynch Math, as that would either confirm Titus as town (if Math is town) or give us reason to check Titus properly (if Math is scum). I met opposition from various people, with the typical line of rhetoric being that we had to lynch a claimed Doctor because there is guaranteed at least one scum in Doctors (7 Claimed). Unless all 3 scum are Doctors, there is at least one Mafia among the Cops. I pointed out that Cops strategic superiority as a fakeclaim, so it was unlikely all scum were Docs. Even so, the idea has been met with heavy resistance from Vedith, Titus, and alban.

While interacting with Math, my desire to lynch them evolved from simple strategic reasoning to an outright scumread. Everything about the way that I've interacted with Math screams to me that they are scum. I've said multiple times that I don't believe in reads (including my own), but I'm powerless to disbelieve my feelings on Math regardless. As such, I'm convinced both inytellectually and emotionally that Math is the correct lynch today. I also expressed early suspicions at Titus and Vedith due to their protection of Math.

At some point, Titus and alban broke my spirit and I became open to a Navy lynch. RC reinvigorated me for a short while, but ultimately broke down too. alban became a person of interest for me to.

Presented a strategy where we would have lynch Cops with an Innocent verdict or lynch players that Cops have a guilty verdict on. Either way would deter scum from giving fake results. Lynching Cops is relatively low-risk outside of MyLo/LyLo, because it gives us confirmed town which are protectable by Doctors. Admittedly, only two unspent Doctors remain, but scum don't know which Night we protect, so it's still risky for them to go for a kill on confirmed town.

MathBlade:

Mostly just OMGUS on anybody who calls them scum and heavy Titus buddying.

Navy:

Slot has done nothing.

NotTheRealPaul:

Few posts. Mostly just sheeping me. But also seems reasonable and capable of independent thought.

RadiantCowbells:

Initially came in attacking Titus and Math. Eventually revealed that he didn't think Titus was scum and was just testing her. Pushed hard for a Math lynch, squabbled with Titus a lot. Tried to negotiate with Titus at times, but they always broke down because one of them would always ask the other for too much control over the situation. Grew suspicious of alban and Math because both suspected the other, but refused to actually vote the other.

Titus:

Convinced Math is town. Will essentially protect Math no matter what. Wants a Navy lynch and will take a No Lynch over a Math lynch. Argued with both RC and I extensively over Math.

Can produce no objective reasons why any lynch is better than a Math lynch from a strategic standpoint, other than "no information is gained, because everybody already knows I'm town." I don't know that she's town.

Consistently misrepresents me by claiming that I refuse to consider a world where Math is town, despite my entire strategic argument hinges upon considering a world where Math is town. Apparently refuses to consider a world in which Math is scum, despite claiming the contrary.

Refused to lynch Navy when both RC and I said that we gave up and were unwilling to fight her anymore, because she refused to let us be bullied into voting Navy, effectively bullying us into a No Lynch instead.

Currently in talks to get some non-Math lynch through.

Vedith:

Stubbornly refused to lynch outside of the Doctor pool or Cop anybody that the town agrees upon.

[Kelvin Smith]

UNVOTE: alban

Just so he doesn't hammer himself so we can't collect ourselves if he's scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin Smith: Slot claimed Cop, switched claim to Doctor (Both on Day 2)

Might I ask why...?

And was this between replacements or?

First thing that's jumping at me but thanks for the summary!

literally just stepped inside so i'm taking a look-see at everything rn

Yeah, I'm not really sure why he did it. Here it is for your own review.

cop cup
gamma up

actually I'm not cop I was hoping scum would fake but w/e, Im doc
I tried to make it so I could claim last but yall are cocks

It was never the case that scum were going to be tricked by the number of Doc and Cop claims, so it was a stupid move from a town perspective. And switching from a Cop claim to a Doc claim would only draw attention to himself, so it was a stupid move from a scum perspective.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Kelvin

That's a horrible one sided summary.

What a shock that my summary of the game would be told from my own perspective.

You and RC have threatened and bullied while everytime trying to cut me out of the process.

I don't know if that's a completely accurate representation of events.

I am willing to lynch any doctor with a case on them I felt made sense. There is confscum in the doctors. We need to find out whothat is.

I mean, we do in the long run, but that doesn't mean we have to right now, so don't pretend like it does mean that.

If you think Math is scum, get them talking.

I have. A lot. That's kind of the whole point of why I think Math is scum.

Solving docs is the key, not attacking whomever disagrees.

It's really not. Say we successfully lynched a scum Doc right now. So fucking what? The game isn't solved. We still don't know for sure if there are more scum in the Docs, how many scum are in the Cops, or who said scum are. Nothing is solved from it. And you still won't fucking lynch Math, which means scum will never kill you and the game will never end in a town win.

And you're probably going to say again that Math can never vote against you in LyLo, so it's all good. I somehow keep forgetting to respond to that, but it's so wrong. Unless it's 3 person LyLo, Math can still vote for town other than you. And even if it was just you, Math, and somebody else, I can almost guarantee you'd vote with Math to lynch the third person, meaning a town loss would still be guaranteed. You andMath can't be allowed to survive together as long as Math is unconfirmed, but since you generally oppose the Copping of Math and Vedith refuses to listen to instructions, we can't ever count on Math being Copped. So we might as well just kill Math now.

[Kelvin Smith]

yeah, i definitely agree it was a dumb move that really only makes sense from a town perspective. thanks for pulling that up.

It's dumb from a town perspective too though. And one could try to argue that there are scum reasons for it. Ultimately though, all the reasons for both sides basically amount to incompetence on my predecessor's part, so it's not worth speculating on and I'd call it more NAI than anything.

[Kelvin Smith]

how likely is it we can flashwagon math?

Paul
RC
You
Me

Those are all of the people we could definitely get to vote Math. alban and Gamma are people I think we could maybe get to vote Math. So it's potentially doable.

[Kelvin Smith]

as scum though i'd be concerned with the outcome

like the only reason i'd see it from scum is if they thought they could pull off a dumbtell like that or something and neither you nor mutton strike me as that type of player

I don't know Mutton well enough to make that assessment, so I don't know if this is a fair assessment. Regardless, I know that his actions weren't scum-motivated, so it's a moot point for me. But I can think of various reasons why other people could see it as indicative of alignment either way. Which is why reads are generally so grossly inaccurate.

[Kelvin Smith]

I think my approach has been binary; either my way or no way. Which is not the way I want to play this game anymore. It's a bit selfish and stupid and also stalling the game.
Kelvin, RC, Titus, Vedith (if you are reading), you all seem to have a plan. Can we all work together and lynch someone who is agreeable to everyone?
All four of you can't be scums together. So, I am ready to put my faith in someone who is agreeable to all four. Assuming that one of you is indeed a scum, we can take vote for someone who is agreeable for 3/4 of you. Or 2/3 of you in case Vedith is not going to read.
Math is not fine with Titus. What about Navy? What about Paul? What are you views on them? Both Titus and Vedith are for Navy. RC was okay with Navy eventually. You, Kelvin?
Also, you should elaborate the scenario about what happens if the intended lynch isn't a scum. What about the night and what about tomorrow? This will be helpful in case someone dies tonight.
My suggestion will be to just present your thoughts for now without poking holes in other people's theories. Refrain from commenting on anything else apart from your own thoughts. That's the only way we are moving forward.

This post is why alban might possibly be agreeable to a Math lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

i actually like that post? i kind of glossed over it while isoing and only his d1 stuff really retained in my head

The problem with that post is that it only came while he was at L-2 after I heavily criticized him because he was unwilling to work with anybody after claiming that 6 of the 9 remaining players (not including himself, obviously) were scummy. Up until that point, he's basically been able to get away with not taking firm stances on anybody by saying that he wouldn't vote with a given person because he didn't agree with their reasoning, even if he agreed with their conclusion.

[Kelvin Smith]

@K

Everytime I turn around you are talking about how Math and I cannot be together bc you cannot control Math and I.

I don't give a shit about controlling you and/or Math. What I care about is the fact that you are turning a blind eye to Math and I can't tell if it's because you are being naive or because you are scum.

It's an equally valid reason to lynch you and RC.

Is it equally valid? I can't speak for RC's view on me, but I am not at a point where I think that he is beyond reproach. I think that a lot of the stuff he says makes sense and I am willing to work with him to get stuff done, but that doesn't mean I completely trust him. I think that's an inherently foolish stance in Mafia.

You refuse to let me go through my process,

You can go through whatever process you want. I'm not going to stop you. But that doesn't mean I am obligated to do anything to facilitate your process.

gove reasons beyond strategy,

I gave reasons beyond strategy. But you also seem to be failing to consider that I don't like to put much stock in anything other than strategy.

or consider my pov.

I have considered your point of view, but it doesn't feel as though you've considered mine.

From what I can gather, your point of view is that Math and I are both town and we're tunneling each other. If we can make up and work together, then we can be some sort of unstoppable force. You maybe think RC could also be part of that if he wasn't so full of himself (my interpretation of your feelings about him, not my feelings about him). You think alban also must be town. That means that if all of us are town, Navy must be scum, so lynching Navy is the best move, because then we can find scum in the Cops.

From the Cops, Math is town. Not sure who else you think town is, but with only 2 scum remaining, it won't matter, because even with two mislynches, we'll still be left with the remaining two when it's all said and done, which means the game is basically solved. If that's wrong, please correct me.

The problem is that doesn't even remotely make any sense from my perspective, if I'm understanding you. The universal support for lynching only in the Doctors is the first thing that fucking pings me. Yes, there is guaranteed to be at least one scum there, but I don't think a single person has argued that all scum are there. Logically, if not all scum are there, then there are scum in he Cops as well. Understandably, the Cops are almost all unspent, and therefore off limits. But one Cop isn't: Math. And Math checked a really odd target, while at the same time pushing really shit OMGUS cases.

Everyone in this game likely suspects that there are scum in Cops too, but tomorrow is MyLo and we're trying to lynch a lurker rather than a person who is genuinely scummy or gives us information. People are resisting shit that it doesn't make that much sense to resist and pushing for shit that is little more than random chance, when only scum know for sure what the setup is. If Navy has this much support, then maybe it means scum are just trying to bus her, but maybe it also just means that she's an easy mislynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: navy

eh screw it, deadline

math lynch i'm more confident in but the jj kill was probably a fear kill

talk to me though navy my reads are really loose atm and if you're town i'll see it if you help me out.

Forget about the dealine. We've got enough time. If it's looming and it's not gonna happen, we can go elsewhere. For now, let's get some momentum on it and discuss the merits of Navy vs. alban.


VOTE: MathBlade

[Kelvin Smith]

it was a dumb gambit

This. He claims that he was trying to make scum fake. But fake what? Did he think scum would all clump up as Doctors by having an extra Cop? But that doesn't make sense, because scum know how many Cops and Docs there are and they know who each other are, so they aren't going to be surprised or even care if the numbers are off. In fact, they'd just know that the numbers were off and they'd be able to use itto push against him when the truth came out. It's a highly illogical move.

[Kelvin Smith]

There are several logical anf factual fallacies in your counter but yes it is how I feel.

Then please point them out when you are not driving.

[Kelvin Smith]

Gamma, please tell me about your stance on a Math lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

Open to it
But let me do my comparison before speaking further on it

Alright, I'm fine with that. I'm just trying to make sure this lynch is doable. I'm not sure we've had this much potential support for it with an active playerbase up until this point. Looks like we might just be able to squeak it out.

[Kelvin Smith]

Navy is now actively making sure that her slot doesn't contribute, by apparently trying to prevent herself from being replaced while saying nothing of value.

Vedith might come around, but so far he's been dead set on not lynching outside of the Doc pool.

Titus is probably opposed, though possibly freaked out by Vedith for some reason?

alban is at a point where he's apparently willing to cooperate on a compromise, though whether or not the four people he listed all have to agree on the lynch is something I'm not clear on.

Math will obviously not be the hammer, so if any of those other four come around, then we're good for the lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

If Math is scum, I'd be a little shocked if both of their partners weren't among those 4 people.

If Math is town, it could go either way. On one hand, confirming Titus as town isn't in their interest. On the other hand, a mislynch is in their interest. I doubt more than one or two scum would oppose the wagon if Math was town.

[Kelvin Smith]

Navy is now actively making sure that her slot doesn't contribute, by apparently trying to prevent herself from being replaced while saying nothing of value.

this alone isnt scum motivated from her but it doesnt change her alignment

I wasn't saying it was scum-motivated or not. It's just actively anti-town. Town can and are anti-town on a fairly regular basis.

[Kelvin Smith]

ok this game is on lock

{titus rc gamma paul} never flip scum and i'm like 90% sure kelvin is town too. alban is probably town but dont take my word for it.

my guess for the team is math/navy/vedith in order of certainty but with those lock four as town i dont think we can possibly lose

gamma do you disagree on any of this?

I know you weren't asking me, but on principle, I can't agree with any of that.

[Kelvin Smith]

but those are my reads

Famous last words.

[Kelvin Smith]

\_O_/

obviously they may not be perfect

i know what im doing lol

pedit: this is assuming scum!titus - why?

Yeah, I know. It's just my commentary on people's propensity to have faith in their own reads.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin thinks Math and Titus are teamed: Im trying to reason him out of it

I don't strongly think it anymore. That's part of why I've engaged Titus as much as I have. But it's a constant concern, I guess.

[Kelvin Smith]

VC 1.15

CommKnight (7)

: Agent Sparkles, Cooperative Sheep, NotTheRealPaul, Sesq, MuttonChopMagic, Hellfire Missile, LunaeCinere,

Cooperative Sheep (3)

: CommKnight, Creature, aronagrundy,

Sesq (1)

: Gamma Emerald,

Creature (1)

: NJAC,

Hellfire Missile (1)

: alban,

Not Voting

(0):
With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-06-02 18:30:00)

I said if Titus is scum not both her buddies are on Comm. Since math would have to be scum that would leave
Giga
Alban
And me as suspects.
Kelvin do you see these as possible thirds for Math and Titus?

If Titus is scum, why couldn't both of her buddies be on Comm? I'm not sure I follow.

[Kelvin Smith]

contrary to me saying my reads are "lock" i have like 0 confidence in them. you'll get used to it

Well that's good to hear. It's a very healthy stance to take.

[Kelvin Smith]

aroma said to look at the comm wagon. Don't think she'd do that with two buddies there

I think anything is theoretically possible out of scum. I would rather not discount anything out of hand because it seems like an unlikely move. Hell, even though I think it's ludicrously unlikely that all three scum are the Doctors, I don't think it's imposssible. It would just have to mean that the team is alban, RC, and Navy. Ridiculous conceptually and highly unlikely, but to

entirely

discount it would be a foolish move on my part.

[Kelvin Smith]

i don't see the point of speculating any of this

can we just focus on lynching scum? do you think math is scum or not gamma and why

No need to get impatient. I don't agree with the reasoning myself, by I think there is a point to it. It seems like he's trying to get a handle on who the scum team could logically be so that he can make informed lynching decisions. Culd also be that he's trying to get people to commit to certain stances so that they don't flip-flop later if things go poorly.

[Kelvin Smith]

i guess?

sorry when there's a <5 day deadline i get kind of testy

I completely get you. For me, 3 days or less are when I think we really have to stop dicking around, because time elapses quick and you don't know who is gonna be around for the deadline.

But like I said, we're not in a bad position for the Math lynch. And if it looks like it's not going through, I'm confident enough in the activity of this group to pivot to a Navy/alban lynch in 24 hours or less.

[Kelvin Smith]

i don't see the point of speculating any of this

can we just focus on lynching scum? do you think math is scum or not gamma and why

I think there's a chance
I feel like if I look back at

something

I'll have harder opinions

The only concern there is making a bad decision by misinterpreting past data. In a recent game with Titus, she was town and pulled a maneuver that she had done before as scum. Wisdom called her on it and she was mislynched at least partially for that.

The problem is that people assume that just because they know something happened in the past, they can correctly interpret

why

it happened. More often than not, they can't, so they are left operating under incorrect assumptions.

[Kelvin Smith]

I believe I was there
That was Railgun right?

Yes, that is correct. So go ahead and look into the past, if you think it's going to help you make decisions. Just be careful, because you might end up deluding yourself into making the wrong ones.

[Kelvin Smith]

I mainly meant looking at this game

Oh, did you? I thought by game comparison, you meant you were going to compare it to past games. I guess I misinterpreted what you said.

[Kelvin Smith]

@Alban and NTRP: do you have any ideas for good things to look back on?

I think I'm gonna have to start calling Paul "NTR Paul." Good times (or bad for him, depending on which side of the NTR he's on).

[Kelvin Smith]

I mainly meant looking at this game

Oh, did you? I thought by game comparison, you meant you were going to compare it to past games. I guess I misinterpreted what you said.

Yes
But when I said I was looking back more recently I meant in this game

I see. Well, either way, do what you've got to do.

[Kelvin Smith]

2 more votes

I'm 99.9% sure we can count on RC, so that just leaves the hammer.

Math town flip means I'm on Titus if I'm active tonight. Titus, it also means you might want to cover me if you're active tonight. Cops should probably be on Navy, alban, or RC, but you can also do me, if you really want.

Math scum flip means Docs on Cops, I think. I like Gamma for best bet, but do you, Titus. Cops should probably be on Titus, alban, or Navy. You could also check RC or I, but it seems like a really unlikely bus, so it's definitely not ideals.

[Kelvin Smith]

@2098 Kelvin Logical errors

When I say the case for what you presented in my opinion was Math was uncontrollable being equally valid, I was referring to the "validity" as in philosphy. If the premises were true (namely uncontrolled buddying means lynch), it would apply to both RC and Math.

Is RC buddying me in a way that is at all comparable to how Math is acting towards you? Or am I misunderstanding what you're saying here?

If you townread someone, you should give them every tool possible to reach agreement and be open to their cases (which is why I keep asking). If town unites, we cannot lose. But if we feel whatever we do is a win lose proposition, then it's hard to progress. If you TR someone, work at getting their best.

I agree in some ways, but disagree overall. This shouldn't just apply to townreads, because one's townreads can be (and often are) wrong. If the entire town unites, then they can't lose, assuming that everyone is actually town-aligned. The problem is, sometimes scum sneak in there.

You mention near universal support for lynching in doctors. It's not true. You and RC want to lynch First, Math who is not a doctor. Second, near universal support for the correct play is a given. If there is guaranteed scum in a pool, solve that pool first.

RC is a new addition to this game, as am I. To my knowledge, it was universal before. And 8/10 is still fairly universal regardless.

Second, if near universal support for the correct play was a given, there would be no problems lynching Math. Yet I had an uphill battle the entire time pushing that.

Third, the pool won't be solved from a single scum lynch. You just go back to not knowing anything for certain. Rather than that, expanding your overall actual knowledge and making the pool smaller is arguably a smarter play.

Now when I said solving the doctor problem would solve the game, I wasn't kidding. On a whole, certain slots have avoided Navy while pushing alban. It creates a suggestion that NJAC and Paul may share an alignment, along with Math and Vedith. This presumes only one scum doc.

You could interpret it that way, but that doesn't make the interpretation correct. If one can't guarantee their interpretation is correct, then they haven't actually solved anything.

If two scum docs, that makes things interesting and deterring cops in docs is offthecharts scummy.

I mean, is it? Copping anywhere is pretty much fine. Information is information. Granted, there are some better strategic plays than others.

If all three scum are doctors, then scum are not bussing that doctor.

Really? Cause that seems like the scenario where they are most likely to bus. Nobody is going to suspect all three scum as Docs, so even if two get lynched, the last one can easily cast to the end of the game.

[Kelvin Smith]

2 more votes

I'm 99.9% sure we can count on RC, so that just leaves the hammer.

Math town flip means I'm on Titus if I'm active tonight. Titus, it also means you might want to cover me if you're active tonight. Cops should probably be on Navy, alban, or RC, but you can also do me, if you really want.

Math scum flip means Docs on Cops, I think. I like Gamma for best bet, but do you, Titus. Cops should probably be on Titus, alban, or Navy. You could also check RC or I, but it seems like a really unlikely bus, so it's definitely not ideals.

I agree with all of this but it's the wrong lynch. We need to solve the doctors, not the cops.

No, we need to solve the game. Cops and Docs are not mutually exclusive. And lynching Math helps some players either further solve the Docs or lynch scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

Tbh I'd rather not have navy copped if she's being a lurksack
I feel like if she were scum that would be giving her what she wants

Then Cops can go alban instead. I feel better about him as scum anyway, personally, so it would be good to know so that I can either clear the misconception from my head or confirm my suspicions.

[Kelvin Smith]

1) Yes, I feel RC is treating you in a manner similar to Math treating me. Agreeing with whatever you want. RC is even being more obnoxious.

He hasn't agreed with everything I want. We've presented very different ideas about how to work the PR situation. And so far, i haven't found a single person who supports my idea of lynching Cops with Innocent results, other than possibly Paul. And RC was the one who brought up alban as scum, I believe. And he's the tone who pushed for you being town, even though I said I thought you were scum.

2) Yes, sometimes scum do sneak into a townblock. That doesn't mean we stop giving town what they need to communicate. The comminication helps the group vet itself. That's why my way or the highway is dangerous and why I rejected your vote where you felt bullied.

I don't necessarily agree that communication helps the group vet itself. And rejecting my vote didn't really help me communicate with you any better. Luckily, it's given us the opportunity for a Math lynch though, so I'm not going to begrudge you for it, even though that was never your intent.

Math is a horrible lynch. That is why it lacks support. You basically shouted people where they said whatever without justifying the read you have convinced yourself of.

That's not an accurate representation of things. As near as I can tell, you are the only one that townreads Math, which is probably why they are continuing to hide behind the hem of your skirt. Almost nobody is saying Math is town, yet for quite a while, they all opposed Math's lynch, which strikes me as pretty suspect.

Expanding everyone's overall knowledge = finding the scum doctor. Then, look at who followed and who did not. Vote analysis fills in the rest.

Vote analysis can be helpful, but it's also flawed. It makes too many assumptions about the reasons why people put their votes where they did.

Scum aren't going to bus if they can convince someone that all cops with clears are expendable and only check cops

That depends on the scum. Once more, you're making too many assumptions.

If we have cops with clears in lylo, then the puzzle sorts itself.

Does it though? How do we know which Cop to trust?

If we have 3 clears not overlapping, we know at least 1 must be scum, since there are not 6 town. Then, we figure out which one fails to make sense. If there's a guilty, obviously it's an at least 1 v 1.

But remaining scum Cops are probably going to hold out as long as they can before giving a result. And then they can just give the result that supports their narrative the best, based on the situation. That relies on everyone making he right choice, which is a crapshoot. I prefer dealing with more concrete answers, when possible.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. Cops can be all town. Remote but possible.

Which still means that we have to discover that by solving that puzzle.

Lynching Math does zero to solve the game. Nothing. No one thinks I am likely scum. No one's cased Math.

Look, I think you are less likely to be scum, but I still suspect you. Something about you feels very wrong to me and it's not just that you are disagreeing with me. Stop acting like nobody suspects you.

Lynching and copping in docs solves the game. If you feel Vedith Math is a team, you should be 100% on board with this as Vedith as scum hates it.

I'm not even sure what you're getting at here. But I'm afraid I'll likely be staying on the Math wagon.

[Kelvin Smith]

No way I can read all this while game night goes on.

Someone catch me up on what I need to answer if anything.

I'm not sure if anything has been directed at you in a while, but you are going to be lynched.

If you are town, please try to give us your final words of wisdom and we'll do with it what we can.

If you're scum, don't bother, just self-vote. There is no escape.

[Kelvin Smith]

It tells me nothing and doesn't hunt confirmed scum. Unless you case Math, you're not getting my vote.

That's alright. As much as I'd like the final vote to lynch Math, I know better than to try to get it from you in this situation.

[Kelvin Smith]

Also, I'd like to apologize. I've been in this game just over a week and already have the second-most posts. Hopefully my excessive posting has done some good in this game and will result in a win, because I realize it must be hell for everyone involved.

[Kelvin Smith]

Also, I'd like to apologize. I've been in this game just over a week and already have the second-most posts. Hopefully my excessive posting has done some good in this game and will result in a win, because I realize it must be hell for everyone involved.

And just what have you learned?

You've been outshouting everyone else to lynch a slot that's frequently lynched for what? You came in with an agenda and have blocked anything else.

You could have 50000 million posts to me. I'm pissed I cannot test any theories here because you're shouting everyone out and bullying lynches.

I couldn't test alban because you dismantled it right before he proved his alignment.

Town needs all but 1 of us to agree. If you think Navy's town (by refusal to vote, yes), then you NEED me.

Same, I need one of you two to actually agree on a good wagon at a minimum.

I didn't say I learned anything. I think I did what needed to be done. But this many posts this quickly is still a lot to read. I did what I thought was best and I have no regrets.

All of the most influential players this game are guilty of shouting too loudly, to a degree. But at the end of the day, I just hope it all works out.

[Kelvin Smith]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

So then no actual words of wisdom, right?

[Kelvin Smith]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin and Titus, all you are doing right now is to discredit and deflate the other's theories. Why constantly highlight why the other's option is not a good lynch option for you? It will be more constructive if both of you give three options in the order of preference, whom you would like to lynch today? Clearly, Math and Navy are going to send one of you out of Orbit. So who are the other scums according to you? And we start from there.

Question for you. Why is it so important to you that Titus and I agree? If you vote Math, we don't need Titus on this lynch.

It is important coz if I go by scumminess, Titus is on a lower rung than you or RC. And I need either Titus (or maybe even two of Vedith or Gamma or Giga) to come on board and validate your lynch choices.

Notice how Hamas and Giga are both on the wagon, validating the lynch choice. In fact, alban and Titus are the only other active living players who are not and never have supported this lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm not sure how Gamma became "Hamas," but I'll blame my phone.

[Kelvin Smith]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

There will be no case from me. I've said everything about Math that needs saying. And why would they feel any desire to change their votes when they each independently scumread Math? That doesn't even make sense.

[Kelvin Smith]

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?

I was not. I wasn't even playing the game at the time when those people were lynched.

You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?

All of it, because you trust virtually nobody. Your suspicion list includes everybody in the game except Gamma's and giga's slots, who weren't posting during most of that period. What's more, you don't have to trust somebody to agree with them.

I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises.

I don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about, because I wasn't there, but whoever was making promises like that sounds like they were a fool. You don't get clarity from random fucking lynches and crappy VCAs. You get clarity from hard facts. And there's nothing harder than the fact that if Math flips town, Titus is confirmed town. That's fucking factual. And better yet, if Math doesn't flip town, it means we have less scum.

And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.

Yeah, no. People can have opposite views on some stuff, while having similar views on other stuff. That doesn't mean that they are more likely to be mutually correct when they agree. There's absolutely nothing about consensus that makes it inherently more correct. There's just less room to point fingers.

Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.

In a universe where you want to be able to have the right reads if a lynch goes through, but you don't actually want to take part in the lynch because you are hoping it won't go through. Or maybe in the universe where you do weird crap so can say "why would I do this weird crap to draw attention to myself?"

Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

I'm not revising my case on Math, because it was already solid enough as it stood. The strategy is solid and the reasoning for my scumread are my own and are not intended to convince you. I'm not casing Math again. I don't need to case Math again. I doubt Gamma or giga give a shit about me casing Math again.

It's this simple, alban: We have a little over a day left. You can be part of a scum lynch that you admitted to not opposing on multiple occasions or you can actively oppose it by refusing to vote and making it look like you are protecting Math. Half the players find Math suspicious (and rightfully so), so why do you want to be on the wrong side of that? Even the two players you apparently don't suspect support the lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

...I have been offline and my three are Kelvin Navy Alban.

Just to be clear, the fantasy that you are trying to spin is that all three scum claimed Doctor? And that Mutton, who initially claimed Cop, actually switched his claim to also be Doctor?

The absurdity of this post alone is almost grounds enough for lynching you.

I am not trying to "spin" anything. Those are my scumreads.

Those reads make no sense. Why would Mutton fake to ensure the optimal lynch was always in the scum pool? If Mutton's scum, it makes more sense his buddies are cops than doctors.

This was already asked and answered.

He forgot his fake claim or was playing suboptimally.

People don't always play optimally.

"He forgot"? He forgot what? That the whole scum team agreed that they were going to claim Doctor together?

[Kelvin Smith]

And yeah, I know that both Giga and Gamma are already on the wagon, but maybe they will change their mind once you put together your case. I really want them to go through your reasons on Math being a scum.

There will be no case from me. I've said everything about Math that needs saying. And why would they feel any desire to change their votes when they each independently scumread Math? That doesn't even make sense.

Your choice.
They may change their case since sometimes people go by the reads of their townreads, and they should know how flimsy your arguments are.

I'm going to restrain myself from going off on you for that comment, because I'm really trying not to get into a full-blown fight here. But consider this: perhaps my argument is not flimsy, but rather your reasoning is.

[Kelvin Smith]

@alban/giga,

How likely do you think it is RC Kelvin and Math are pulling some wierd gambit like 685?

How likely do you think that is?

[Kelvin Smith]

This is a fucking long post, so I've had to spoiler tag it. Why the hell am I still even doing this? You people have riled me up so much you've got me making gigantic walls again.

Spoiler:

Talking about wagons Kelvin, you were on both Commknight and Sesq wagons, weren't you?

I was not. I wasn't even playing the game at the time when those people were lynched.

Semantics. Your slot was.

That's not an issue of semantics at all.

I

was not on those wagons.

I

have no idea why he was on those fucking wagons.

I

have no idea if he had good reasons for being on those wagons. And frankly, I don't give a shit, because he's not me, so I don't need to answer for his actions.

Spoiler:

You are constantly throwing shade at me for not going ahead with your choices. I said, I am not opposed to Math/Navy lynch. But people I somewhat trust need to be on board for that. What part of it is unfathomable?

All of it, because you trust virtually nobody. Your suspicion list includes everybody in the game except Gamma's and giga's slots, who weren't posting during most of that period. What's more, you don't have to trust somebody to agree with them.

Let's not drag everyone into it and make it vague. My grouse is against your case which is flimsy.
You may not have to trust someone to agree with them. I do. Given these differences, I have still agreed to work with you and others, whereas you are being obstinate and refusing to present your case on Math.

No, let's do drag everyone into it, because it doesn't make anything vague in the slightest. If you need to agree with everybody on a wagon to be on a wagon, then you are going to have a very unsuccessful career lynching scum, because sometimes people on a wagon have stupid fucking reasons for being on the wagon. But guess what? The two people in this game that you allegedly trust are voting on this wagon because they, independently of me, believe that Math is scum. In addition, you claim not to be opposed to the lynch, yet you are actively looking for reasons to avoid it by focusing only on my reasons, which you call flimsy.

Spoiler:

I don't want to repeat what happened with Sesq wagon where I didn't want to do exactly what you are asking me to do with the math wagon now, but I ended up doing that coz someone said the exact same thing you are saying now. That after we lynch this fellow, there will be clarity. There has been no clarity. I have been screaming from the rooftops that if lynching Sesq was done to achieve clarity, why the hell is there no effort driven to analyse the VCA or even Sesq's Day1-2? None of you are even talking about that. So then, how do I know that you will not do the same thing on D4? Worse still, how do I know that it's not all a ploy? Sorry, I don't want to go ahead with such promises.

I don't have any idea what the hell you're talking about, because I wasn't there, but whoever was making promises like that sounds like they were a fool. You don't get clarity from random fucking lynches and crappy VCAs. You get clarity from hard facts. And there's nothing harder than the fact that if Math flips town, Titus is confirmed town. That's fucking factual. And better yet, if Math doesn't flip town, it means we have less scum.

You are sounding like a broken record. All your posts are "this is how it is, but if you don't agree with me, then I will shout/sulk". You don't have an idea about Sesq wagon coz you refuse to read. Even after naming a particular incident, why wouldn't you go back and read that particular incident? Your choice.

First, I'll talk regarding not reading the past of the game. What do you think I could possibly have to gain from reading about Sesq's lynch? Because I don't think I could learn anything. Vote Count Analysis is extremely flawed, because it is based on making assumptions about why people voted, even though you have no objective way of knowing what was in their heads when they cast their vote.

Second, I'm about to present logical facts to you and I want you to refute them, instead of just pretending that I'm not saying something factual without refuting it.

1. MathBlade claimed Cop.

2. MathBlade claimed an Innocent on Titus.

3. If MathBlade is town, then MathBlade is not lying about Titus being Innocent.

4. If MathBlade is scum, we don't know if MathBlade is lying about Titus being Innocent.

5. If we lynch MathBlade, we will learn whether 3 or 4 is true.

Conclusion: If 3 is true, we have confirmed town. If 4 is true, we will have successfully lynched scum.

Spoiler:

And the only way I believe I will find some semblance of honesty and truth from players that I read scummy is when players with diametrically opposite views can agree on a lynch. There are three scums, so even if Math/Navy are scums, there are still 2 more, and maybe the opposite party will have to grudgingly accept the alternative lynch.

Yeah, no. People can have opposite views on some stuff, while having similar views on other stuff. That doesn't mean that they are more likely to be mutually correct when they agree. There's absolutely nothing about consensus that makes it inherently more correct. There's just less room to point fingers.

Faulty logic and misrepresentation. Faulty logic coz just because more people agreeing on something might be incorrect doesn't mean less people agreeing on something is more correct. Misrepresentation coz you made me sound as if that's the way I want the world to play. I clearly stated and hence there's no need to misrepresent me, that these are my thoughts, and this is how I would like to play. I found a way wherein I can come on board, but you are refusing to help. Your choice.

I never said that less people agreeing on something made it more correct, so my logic was never faulty there. And I didn't misrepresent you. You said that you think that the only way you'll find honesty and truth is by getting people with opposing views to agree. Which is faulty, because you have no good reason to believe it. At all. It's not misrepresentation to say that your reasoning is faulty when your reasoning is faulty.

Spoiler:

Also, you need to consider this: In which universe will a scum!me will oppose so much for scum!math? In which universe will a scum!me will oppose anything so fervently that I will stand out? By saying no to Math as well as Navy lynch just coz 6 random players think of lynching them is not good enough reason for me. Especially coz you have really given a below average case on Math, and Titus has given a below average case on Navy. And by blocking these lynches (which I am sure you can achieve even without me), I am putting myself in the grave danger of becoming the next possibly lynch. Everyone either despises or is manipulating my stand to take me to the lynch. Which scum would do that? Yes, the moment I pose this argument, its authenticity goes for a toss coz I could be wifom-ing, but if I really wanted someone to die, I could have gone with any of the camps and got someone lynched. Making myself an easy target isn't a good strategy coz right now I am sticking out like a sore thumb.

In a universe where you want to be able to have the right reads if a lynch goes through, but you don't actually want to take part in the lynch because you are hoping it won't go through. Or maybe in the universe where you do weird crap so can say "why would I do this weird crap to draw attention to myself?"

Let me assure you both the universes are yours and I have no interest in partaking you. Seriously. There are people here who know my scum game, and this isn't how I play. Although I may generally appear scummy.

You think I care what other people think your scum game looks like? Cause I don't. I've seen other people say that "this doesn't look like X's scum game" or "this isn't what Y would do as town" all the fucking time. And 9 out of 10 times, they're fucking wrong, because humans rarely know other people as well as they think they do. The only people on this site that I've seen with accurate abilities to read each other are Tammy and Nacho. For the most part though, it's all a bunch of crap and I'm not going to buy into it just because somebody says it. That doesn't mean I'm not going to consider it, because maybe there are some valid points that I hadn't thought about, but for the most part, it's not worth my time.

Spoiler:

Let's do this: If you want my vote, forget about getting titus on board. Why don't you revise your case on math and present it? You say I broke your poor case on Math by giving even poorer reasons. Let's have your revamped case on Math. Let everyone evaluate it. Vedith is absent. Titus is against Math lynch. If Gamma and Giga get convinced by your case on math, I will come on board as well.

I'm not revising my case on Math, because it was already solid enough as it stood. The strategy is solid and the reasoning for my scumread are my own and are not intended to convince you. I'm not casing Math again. I don't need to case Math again. I doubt Gamma or giga give a shit about me casing Math again.

It's this simple, alban: We have a little over a day left. You can be part of a scum lynch that you admitted to not opposing on multiple occasions or you can actively oppose it by refusing to vote and making it look like you are protecting Math. Half the players find Math suspicious (and rightfully so), so why do you want to be on the wrong side of that? Even the two players you apparently don't suspect support the lynch.

Man, you have an amazing capacity to not even budge an inch.

I can budge when I'm given good reason to budge. You've failed to provide that. And I have no good reason to think you aren't scum trying to steer me away from a good lynch. Including you, nly a small group of people are opposing this lynch, and all of them are doing so for obscenely bad reasons. Among them, so why am I going to let any of you whisper in my and drive me away from what appears to be an excellent lynch?

You refuse to read about anything that happened before you joined.

What could I gain from reading anything before I joined? I don't have unlimited time and I don't see how that could possibly help the gamestate right now. Explain why I should even bother.

You won't give a compelling case on Math yet are voting for them.

News flash: My case is compelling as fuck to me. It's literally compelling me to vote. Just because you don't find it compelling, doesn't mean that I (or other people) don't.

You won't revise your case on them.

Why would I revise my case when there's nothing apparently wrong with it?

You won't entertain possibilities of lynching anyone else coz of course Math is a lone scum.

I won't entertain the possibility of lynching someone else because everyone else is a strategically inferior choice AND less definitively scum.

I tried and I give up.

Alright.

[Kelvin Smith]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

You talking to me? I've been talking about Copping Math forever if we don't lynch them. But because Vedith is stubborn about being directed, I can't put enough faith into Math getting Copped to risk leaving them around.

[Kelvin Smith]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

You talking to me? I've been talking about Copping Math forever if we don't lynch them. But because Vedith is stubborn about being directed, I can't put enough faith into Math getting Copped to risk leaving them around.

The only person I'd lynch outside of the cops is Vedith. Refusing to cooperate or suggest alternatives is scummy.

I'll assume you mean outside of Docs. I don't agree that those things necessarily make someone scummy though. Either way, I'm not agreeing to lynch an unspent Cop, when we could lynch him later when he brings a result.

[Kelvin Smith]

Are you at least ready to the idea of copping Math so that in case they are town, we don't lose them?

You talking to me? I've been talking about Copping Math forever if we don't lynch them. But because Vedith is stubborn about being directed, I can't put enough faith into Math getting Copped to risk leaving them around.

The only person I'd lynch outside of the cops is Vedith. Refusing to cooperate or suggest alternatives is scummy.

I'll assume you mean outside of Docs. I don't agree that those things necessarily make someone scummy though. Either way, I'm not agreeing to lynch an unspent Cop, when we could lynch him later when he brings a result.

Great, so we have an agreement on no cops then. I am getting close to just wanting to policy lynch you or RC

Don't twist my words. What you said just didn't make sense from your perspective, as I understand it.

If Math flips town, then go ahead and try to lynch me. But until then, just acknowledge that you might be wrong about Math and join this wagon.

[Kelvin Smith]

The only strategic choice is doctors. You wanting to lynch in cops for "information" is dumb as we get just as much info on docs with Math alive.

You are absolutely fucking right, we get exactly as much information on Docs by lynching Math as we do by lynching a Doc. But lynching a Doc gives us zero definitive information on any Cops, while lynching Math (a Cop) also shrinks our Cop pool, without losing us any PR utility later on. As a group, we

objectively

get a greater amount of information from lynching Math than any Doc. Even if you argue it's redundant information that most people know subjectively, it still results in a net increase in concrete information that people will know objectively. There is no argument in the world that you could possibly produce that would make this statement false.

[Kelvin Smith]

Then why can no one provide a reason beyond spent cop, cleared me?

Titus, you keep fucking saying this. Do you actually want me to go through my entire fucking ISO and give you every instance of me saying why I subjectively believe that Math is scum? Or did you just mean why can we not give you any reasons that you agree to?

[Kelvin Smith]

Then why can no one provide a reason beyond spent cop, cleared me?

Titus, you keep fucking saying this. Do you actually want me to go through my entire fucking ISO and give you every instance of me saying why I subjectively believe that Math is scum? Or did you just mean why can we not give you any reasons that you agree to?

No. Math OMGUSing is just a math reason. Math stretching things is just Math.

We lose my townread. No one townreads Navy. Yet we cannot get her lynched.

I'm sorry, but I don't give a shit about your goddamn townreads. We can't get Navy lynched because almost everyone else in the game is convinced that Math is far more obvious scum than Navy and therefore a much safer lynch. Just because nobody townreads Navy, doesn't mean that everybody scumreads Navy. Navy isn't the super scummy player here, Math is. If Math is just being Math, then Math is still an excellent policy lynch, because Math's terrible play is just going to drag us down. For everyone but you, Math, and probably the scumteam, a Math lynch is a Win/Win situation. No matter how Math flips, we are in a much better position.

[Kelvin Smith]

Why do I have to compromise when the only things that you'd call a reason boil down to Math is too insane to contain but in PC terms?

You have to compromise because otherwise, you are just stonewalling everybody. Like, you aren't just stonewalling me or RC, you're stonewalling everyone on this wagon because you believe you can't be wrong here, even though we're all telling you it looks suspiciously like you are wrong here.

[Kelvin Smith]

Like Kelvin you decided eithout talking to everyone that you were going to tunnel Math. Like hell. Then you've engaged in nothing but insults. I considered lynching alban but he obvtowned.

I am open to Vedith but you say no.
I am not open to Gamma but you float that.

What the fuck? When did I float Gamma? I've never expressed any interest in lynching Gamma and I never will until he has a result.

And I decided without talking to everyone, not because it was Math, but because it was the best objective strategic decisions. It was a great move regardless of Math's alignment, Math also happening to be almost definitely be scum is just an added bonus.

[Kelvin Smith]

Why do I have to compromise when the only things that you'd call a reason boil down to Math is too insane to contain but in PC terms?

You have to compromise because otherwise, you are just stonewalling everybody. Like, you aren't just stonewalling me or RC, you're stonewalling everyone on this wagon because you believe you can't be wrong here, even though we're all telling you it looks suspiciously like you are wrong here.

No. You're stonewalling everyone by insisting on a lynch and treating me like human garbage when there's a slot we both agree isn't town.

I can't be stonewalling everybody when Math is essentially at L-1 (the only reason she's not is because RC hasn't voted yet). People want this lynch. Stop spinning a narrative that this is just me when other people have voted of their own accord. I rallied the troops for this current wagon, but they're all here willingly.

I'm not trying to treat you like human garbage, but you are constantly pressing my buttons and it's hard not to be short with you when you do that. From my perspective, you are horrifically wrong. And I'm desperately trying to restrain myself from being mean about how wrong you are.

I don't agree that Navy isn't town, so don't put words in my mouth. Saying that I don't think that she's town is not the same thing as saying that I think that she is not town. She's null.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

Really, if Math is scum, what assurances do I have of this not repeating itself? Where you just shout me down again?

But why should you get absolute control of the game if you are wrong on Math? I can't even know if I should trust you at that point. For all I know, you could be scum throwing Math under the bus so that you can prevent the town from ever lynching or Copping you.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

Really, if Math is scum, what assurances do I have of this not repeating itself? Where you just shout me down again?

The fact that I'm even opposing giving you total control if you are wrong should be proof that I'm going to give you a fair shake, Titus. If I really wanted to, I could just lie to you and say that if Math flips scum, I'll still give you control. But I'm not going to use deception to get your vote.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

Really, if Math is scum, what assurances do I have of this not repeating itself? Where you just shout me down again?

But why should you get absolute control of the game if you are wrong on Math? I can't even know if I should trust you at that point. For all I know, you could be scum throwing Math under the bus so that you can prevent the town from ever lynching or Copping you.

In that instance, I'd be an uncleared doc and thus should have a cop directed onto me. I'd let you pick that one.

It's more about making sure this isn't the RC and Kelvin shout down everyone who disagrees show tomorrow regardless of outcome and I have some hope of keeping gamma and giga around.

How about if instead, it's the three of you together that have to come to those conclusions, rather than giving full control to you?

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

Really, if Math is scum, what assurances do I have of this not repeating itself? Where you just shout me down again?

The fact that I'm even opposing giving you total control if you are wrong should be proof that I'm going to give you a fair shake, Titus. If I really wanted to, I could just lie to you and say that if Math flips scum, I'll still give you control. But I'm not going to use deception to get your vote.

You think you've been giving me a fair shake while refusing to accept anything but what you decided before anyone opened their mouths. I trust you THINK you are giving me a fair shake. I just don't think you are.

I can understand how you might feel that way and I'm not unsympathetic to it. I'm sorry if you feel as though you haven't been given a fair shake. This game has brought out some of my less desirable instincts and I've been more aggressive than I probably should have been.

[Kelvin Smith]

Can we agree if we lynch Math I get to pick where cops go in both setups and non compliance is grounds for lynch?

I am literally sick of being spoken down to. So I'll cave if I get something beyond abuse.

I can agree to all of that if Math is town. But only if Math is town.

However, if Math is scum, I will ask for no such concession from you. I don't plan to rub your nose in it, lord it over you, or start shit with you. We'll just play the game normally.

Is that fair?

Really, if Math is scum, what assurances do I have of this not repeating itself? Where you just shout me down again?

But why should you get absolute control of the game if you are wrong on Math? I can't even know if I should trust you at that point. For all I know, you could be scum throwing Math under the bus so that you can prevent the town from ever lynching or Copping you.

In that instance, I'd be an uncleared doc and thus should have a cop directed onto me. I'd let you pick that one.

It's more about making sure this isn't the RC and Kelvin shout down everyone who disagrees show tomorrow regardless of outcome and I have some hope of keeping gamma and giga around.

How about if instead, it's the three of you together that have to come to those conclusions, rather than giving full control to you?

You and RC don't interfere, even if I don't wind up copped?

You're asking me to speak for another player, which I can't do.

I will not interfere though and I will actively encourage others not to allow RC to interfere. You aren't my top scum suspect, so I'm not pushing your lynch without Cop results, unless that's what makes sense to me in LyLo, and even then, I'll pause. I'm fine with Navy as top priority tomorrow though.

[Kelvin Smith]

RC cannot agree if he's not here. We're at 22 hours. If RC doesn't agree, then I agree to policy lynch him. Is that good enough for you?

[Kelvin Smith]

Basically getting all cops on doctors is my condition for lynching Math if Math is town. Those need to be picked by my/gamma/giga.

If Math is scum, me/giga/gamma pick to ensure no more railroad shit. Everyone off Math wagon gets copped.

Yeah, I can completely get behind this.

[Kelvin Smith]

Not trying to push for a Cop on Titus, but how come there isn't one in the event of scum Math? Are both RC and I really that likely to be scum in that instance?

[Kelvin Smith]

Town Math

Vedith investigates Kelvin
Giga investigates Alban
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates Raybells

Scum Math

Giga investigates Vedith
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates alban
Vedith investigates me (bring it)

I mean, I doubt Vedith will go along with this, but I'm mostly fine with accepting that.

[Kelvin Smith]

i thought rc thought you were town?

He does. If anything, it humors Paul and I, since I think we are the only ones who suspect Titus. But either way, I appreciate it.

[Kelvin Smith]

cops are not investigating in doc claims while there are any scum remaining in cops.

if anyone claims any result on any doc claims I will vote them and not unvote until they die

Have you read the more recent stuff? Titus has a fairly solid plan here and I think we should go along with it.

[Kelvin Smith]

cops are not investigating in doc claims while there are any scum remaining in cops.

if anyone claims any result on any doc claims I will vote them and not unvote until they die

make this totally understood

if you are town cop and you check in the docs you are getting policy lynched.
if you are town and push this reasoning you are enabling scum to win the game when they have no chance of winning if we do this properly

Who do you propose is going to agree to this policy lynch? Titus has made a very generous compromise in voting for Math. I would hope you are willing to compromise similarly. Or explain the flaw in Titus's plan so that she can revise it.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: Mathblade

any cops that check in docs are getting lynched.

I'm not agreeing with or condoning this. Titus made a fair bargain and I am keeping it.

[Kelvin Smith]

RC, you have until Almost50 locks the thread to explain how Titus's plan is flawed.

[Kelvin Smith]

i really dont know

Don't know what?

[Kelvin Smith]

Wait
That was hammer?
Lemme count
Me
Kelvin
RC
Giga
Someone else I forget

Titus
Paul

[Kelvin Smith]

paul

that is hammer.

i really dont know

Don't know what?

what to do

We do what Titus says. That was the deal. We stick to the deal. RC doesn't get to hammer

and

change the deal.

[Kelvin Smith]

Town Math

Vedith investigates Kelvin
Giga investigates Alban
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates Raybells

Scum Math

Giga investigates Vedith
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates alban
Vedith investigates me (bring it)

This is the plan. Unless RC can articulate what the holes are, we're doing this. That was the deal.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: Mathblade

any cops that check in docs are getting lynched.

This post freaks me that RC is freaking out because it's him Math Vedith and clearing cops wrecks him. He was pulling a hard bus.

I mean, it could definitely be that. But it also might not be. After all, he could just kill the person checking him. And pushing checks in Cops still hurts Vedith. We'll find out after the checks though.

[Kelvin Smith]

a universe where raybells is scum means that creature was nightkilled n1 this game

i refuse to believe that

Or it could mean it's a world where scum chose not to Night Kill to get towncred for a fakeDoc.

[Kelvin Smith]

Town Math

Vedith investigates Kelvin
Giga investigates Alban
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates Raybells

Scum Math

Giga investigates Vedith
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates alban
Vedith investigates me (bring it)

This is the plan. Unless RC can articulate what the holes are, we're doing this. That was the deal.

paul can keep their investigate
i'm fine with one investigate on one doc since it's coming from conftown

but gamma checks a cop and vedith checks a cop

Explain why, don't just dictate orders. Despite the fact that people didn't all agree with my strategy for lynching Math, I thoroughly explained what there was to gain from it. You are just telling us Titus's strategy is bad.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: Mathblade

any cops that check in docs are getting lynched.

This post freaks me that RC is freaking out because it's him Math Vedith and clearing cops wrecks him. He was pulling a hard bus.

I mean, it could definitely be that. But it also might not be. After all, he could just kill the person checking him. And pushing checks in Cops still hurts Vedith. We'll find out after the checks though.

If I am active tonight, I am healing the cop assigned to RC.

I'm not opposed. I will do the same, regardless of the flip.

[Kelvin Smith]

a universe where raybells is scum means that creature was nightkilled n1 this game

i refuse to believe that

Or it could mean it's a world where scum chose not to Night Kill to get towncred for a fakeDoc.

You mean like I said earlier and scum ridiculed me for it?

I'm pretty sure both RC and I have said that, so no, if you are saying we're the scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

If I should die tonight (not sure why I would), you guys shouldn't discount my strategy of lynching Cops to confirm their results, assuming that Math is scum. You have to be smart with it, but it has a lot of solving power.

[Kelvin Smith]

But if math is scum there's no Cop assigned to RC

Can you go on RC? If we don't get a guilty, we'll probably lynch Navy anyway.

[Kelvin Smith]

But if math is scum there's no Cop assigned to RC

Can you go on RC? If we don't get a guilty, we'll probably lynch Navy anyway.

Titus, how does this sound?

[Kelvin Smith]

Go to the hospital please if you are. I think you're Town like me.

mod: Can we freeze deadline so RC doesn't feel like they have to post while puking blood?

I understand your concern, but to what end? You've already been lynched. The deadline doesn't need an extension.

[Kelvin Smith]

are you fucking kidding me guys?

Are

you

fucking kidding

me

?! Explain why it's a bad plan or there's no good reason not to do it. It's that simple. Explain a better plan.

[Kelvin Smith]

because cop results are worthless until we know the alignment that they come from.

you get a bunch of checks in the cop circle and that half of the game will be instasolved

And then you have the Docs unsolved. Cross-checking can solve that. If Math is scum, we have, at most, one scum in Cops. And unless all the Cops are active tonight (statistically improbable), we can start worrying about how to deal with that Day 4. It's a good plan tonight though.

[Kelvin Smith]

The problem with any of these Cop circles is that they are easily broken by scum. If scum kill a real Cop in there and are one of the other Cops, they can just sit on their "result" until it suits them by claiming they are Night 5/6 (whichever was the last one) Cop.

[Kelvin Smith]

Go to the hospital please if you are. I think you're Town like me.

mod: Can we freeze deadline so RC doesn't feel like they have to post while puking blood?

I understand your concern, but to what end? You've already been lynched. The deadline doesn't need an extension.

No I haven't I am at like l-3 or something.

We should lynch Navy.

And you know what my reads are people being derpy doesn't change them.

Ebwop

I hammered you to avoid a lynch on you in lylo. You didn't deserve it but I am sick of being spoken down to.

I am so not hammered. We can still fix this people and lynch Navy.

MathBlade, learn to Math.

[Kelvin Smith]

None of the following people have unvoted since voting you, Math. You are lynched.

VOTE: navy

eh screw it, deadline

math lynch i'm more confident in but the jj kill was probably a fear kill

talk to me though navy my reads are really loose atm and if you're town i'll see it if you help me out.

Forget about the dealine. We've got enough time. If it's looming and it's not gonna happen, we can go elsewhere. For now, let's get some momentum on it and discuss the merits of Navy vs. alban.


VOTE: MathBlade

VOTE: mathblade

VOTE: Mathblade

LOL
Looking back I rembember HM was so damn scummy
VOTE: Mathblade
That came from self-ISOing fyi

Meh I only know RC thinks I am to be pushed around. If he thought I was town, he'd be fine with alban or Navy.

VOTE: Math

Tbh deadline should be paused until Navy sub but I am sick of this game.

VOTE: Mathblade

any cops that check in docs are getting lynched.

[Kelvin Smith]

We lynched a cop when scum is 100% chance in the docs.

What a shit town.
It's just RC and Titus trying to wave their egos around.
And Titus trying to justify lynching there.

And Gamma, My pool to check will be ;

RadiantCowbells
gigabyteTroubadour
Gamma Emerald
Titus
Navy
alban
NotTheRealPaul
Kelvin Smith

Trying to dictate where a cop checks means scum can easily setup a mislynch.
I've never seen such amateur plays from a group of players who shouldn't be totally shit.

I don't like to insult people, but I'm tired of your shit attitude. You're a shit player. Shut the hell up and fall in line, because you've been useless all day.

Apologies to everyone for losing my cool, but I needed to say it, because I've had it up to here with his disrespectful shit.

[Kelvin Smith]

Yeah sorry I need 314 votes to lynch.

See my avatar. Learn to Math

So you're just gonna scumclaim here then, right?

[Kelvin Smith]

I don't like to insult people, but I'm tired of your shit attitude. You're a shit player. Shut the hell up and fall in line, because you've been useless all day.

Apologies to everyone for losing my cool, but I needed to say it, because I've had it up to here with his disrespectful shit.

I'm not following any shit plan.
I wouldn't have to be disrespectful if it was such a stupid fucking town.

All day today it's been nothing but useless shit.
My attitude won't change tomorrow either, so you should push my lynch if your little feelings are hurt.

GTFO.

I'm not going to push your lynch until I get your results, because regardless of whether or not I value your input as a player, you have mechanical value for me and I will squeeze every last fucking drop of it out of you before I see you lynched.

[Kelvin Smith]

At least remove Titus or Kelvin based on Math's flip
You cop Kelvin after a math scumflip I lynch you

I might just do this.
Then my play can be like all of yours. Fuck it, yeah, my cop pool is Tits and Kelvin, or infact actually, I won't cop at all.
Or even myself.

That sounds like a plan.

Whatever. You cop obvtown you get lynched.

You're really convincing me to do this.
Keep it going, Gamma.

I'm going to cop a dead player.

So what are your thoughts if Math is scum? Are we still fucking trash if we lynched scum?

[Kelvin Smith]

Whatever. You cop obvtown you get lynched.

You're really convincing me to do this.
Keep it going, Gamma.

I'm going to cop a dead player.

I'm not going to push your lynch until I get your results, because regardless of whether or not I value your input as a player, you have mechanical value for me and I will squeeze every last fucking drop of it out of you before I see you lynched.

I'll tell you now, I won't be giving you or any one else in this game anything tomorrow.

I'm pretty sure gamethrowing is against site rules and you could get banned for that.

[Kelvin Smith]

Yo.

The lylo thing is a lie. You couldn't have done that because you were dead before lylo in Spring Fever.

yo.

Hello Annie.

nnhhhhhh

This is what we didn't lynch.

Yeah, and if all goes as planned, that might be what we lynch tomorrow. But lynching someone just because they are lurking when there are other, more reasonable lynches to make is just bad play. Math was a more reasonable lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

I'm pretty sure gamethrowing is against site rules and you could get banned for that.

You can report me if you like.
Me refusing to help town or follow a shit plan is not game throwing, kiddo.

I feel like Copping a dead person or purposely not Copping in this setup is gamethrowing.

[Kelvin Smith]

Guys, what's the site policy regarding asking for another player to be replaced in a game? Like, I don't know about the rest of you, but if we can all request Almost50 to replace Vedith, I think we should. The only issue I have there is that he might be scum and this is just a shitty tactic to not be useful.

[Kelvin Smith]

OK? We can just let the slot get replaced.

She's probably scum but you're acting like she wouldn't play like that as either alignment and I'd rather lynch a slot with readable content.

That slot isn't being replaced. It gets passed the replace spot, does a stupid post like that and stays in the game.
And people seem to be okay with this, but not okay with me telling them how shit they are for letting it happen.

Navy needs to be replaced to. Because non-content posts should not be considered an acceptable substitute to actually playing the game.

[Kelvin Smith]

Guys, what's the site policy regarding asking for another player to be replaced in a game? Like, I don't know about the rest of you, but if we can all request Almost50 to replace Vedith, I think we should. The only issue I have there is that he might be scum and this is just a shitty tactic to not be useful.

This makes my point stronger.
Is okay with someone doing nothing in the game and wasting a spot, but as soon as I refuse to follow a plan, wants me replaced.

I want both of you replaced.

[Kelvin Smith]

Navy needs to be replaced to. Because non-content posts should not be considered an acceptable substitute to actually playing the game.

Yet I don't see you pushing for this.
Because once again, your play is shit.

No, because Navy is about to receive her third prod, which I assume means she'll be force-replaced anyway, so I didn't feel the need to go through extraneous channels. But your threats of gamethrowing and insults because you don' like the choices everyone else have made are something that is actively toxic to the gamestate. You've added approximately as much value to this game since I replaced in as Navy, so in my eyes, you are equally worthy of replacement.

[Kelvin Smith]

17 real days, 5 posts (0 really).
And it's acceptable to not be lynched.

Is this the same on your home site, Gamma?

No, it's not acceptable to lynch. It's acceptable to replace and depending how often it happens, might be acceptable to ban.

[Kelvin Smith]

No, because Navy is about to receive her third prod, which I assume means she'll be force-replaced anyway, so I didn't feel the need to go through extraneous channels. But your threats of gamethrowing and insults because you don' like the choices everyone else have made are something that is actively toxic to the gamestate. You've added approximately as much value to this game since I replaced in as Navy, so in my eyes, you are equally worthy of replacement.

Navy should be on more than 3 prods.
Navy should have been replaced, but because of the amount of replaces in this game wasn't.

So I can tell you what happens tomorrow.
Navy posts "Yo" and everyone goes "Oh lets lynch this stick!"

And yeah you keep saying that I've added nothing to this game. That shows how much of a shit player you are.

Whatever, I'm done with this conversation. I'm not going to turn this thread into anymore of a toxic cesspool than it already is.

If you want to help us win the game, awesome. If you don't, that's fine, we'll just have to find a way without you.

Nobody lynch Vedith because he's being difficult. Lynch him if you legitimately think he's the last member of the scum team and don't let him get to LyLo.

[Kelvin Smith]

Nobody lynch Vedith because he's being difficult. Lynch him if you legitimately think he's the last member of the scum team and don't let him get to LyLo.

You post as if you're confirmed town.
I'm going to remind you, you're not.
But you already know that anyway.

No, I post as if I might die, so I want people to remember that if I do. I can just say that shit myself Day 4, if I'm alive. I'm not confirmed town until I'm dead or a dead Cop confirms it.

[Kelvin Smith]

17 real days, 5 posts (0 really).
And it's acceptable to not be lynched.

Is this the same on your home site, Gamma?

No, it's not acceptable to lynch. It's acceptable to replace and depending how often it happens, might be acceptable to ban.

Why are you speaking for me

I'm not. I was responding to the first part.

[Kelvin Smith]

lol this game. i can see where vedith is coming from.

Let cops cop wherever the fuck they want. Making a plan lets scum manipulate it.

Have some faith that the cops will cop the right fucking ppl

The problem is that you can either end up with unnecessary overlap or nobody checking the right people because everyone thinks that everyone else will. Trying to lay out a plan that is hard for scum to crack is better than everyone operating blindly. Scum PRs very rarely have to worry about conflicting actions, so why should town PRs in a setup where everyone has claimed?

[Kelvin Smith]

On top of that, if you the town can dictate PR actions, then they can theoretically force scum to play in a certain way. Just trusting PRs to do whatever removes strategy and introduces randomness that is difficult to control for and can lead to suboptimal results.

[Kelvin Smith]

For example - Your plan goes like

X checks Y
Y checks C
C checks E
L checks X

Y dies
X claims town
C claims town
L says "Not tonight"

Where do you go?

You push C, right?
So it's as simple as scum setting up a kill, and making a fake result.

That's exactly why it shouldn't be a chain of Cops.

Everyone to their own man or everyone on a single person makes it harder for scum to manipulate the results.

[Kelvin Smith]

That's exactly why it shouldn't be a chain of Cops.

Everyone to their own man or everyone on a single person makes it harder for scum to manipulate the results.

That was with a doc as well.
It still doesn't work.

That was with a single Doc. Here, I'll use a modified version of Titus's plan, assuming Math flips scum.

Giga investigates RC
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates alban
Vedith investigates Titus

If there is only one scum in the Cops (the maximum possible, if Math is scum), then they kill any other Cop, that still leaves two legit Cops living. If, however, there are no scum left in the Cops, then we have the potential to get a lot of information and it's very hard for scum to deny us of it. I assume we'll get 0-1 result. If we get a resut, we lynch the Cop on an Innocent or the suspect on a Guilty. By doing so, we get either 1 dead scum or 1 confirmed town.

Alternatively, scum can take out any Doc. Which means we lynch either Navy or a Cop with an Innocent on a dead person (because it was was an easy claim from scum).

Ether way, we can figure out what to do from there Day 4, but that's very hard to manipulate, because scum don't know who, if anyone, is going off tonight.

On the other hand, if Math flips town, we've got bigger problems anyway, because we'll essentially be in perpetual MyLo/LyLo, no matter what we do.

[Kelvin Smith]

Also, using the strategy where every Cop is on a single person (Navy or alban, for instance), then two results clear them. Which mean scum either need to take out one of the more suspicious players or have a confirmed townie on their hands and lose mislynch bait.

[Kelvin Smith]

Giga investigates RC
Gamma investigates Navy
Paul investigates alban
Vedith investigates Titus

Okay, lets go with this.
Here's an example.

Gigga says town
Gamma dies
Paul says town
Vedith says not tonight

Or this

Gigga dies
Gamma says not tonight
Paul says not tonight
Vedith says town

Where do you push in either of these situations?
Where the person died? So scum can control where we push tomorrow.

If scum is checking scum, then they will kill to impact this and setup someone.
If town is checking scum, that town is dying and could be the only real check that night.

We also have no confirms on the clears we have, and any of the names above could be paired.

If we cop where we want, lets face it, the odds are at best 2 results, if not only 1. So letting cops decide who needs checking is best.
We are more likely to get a scum result this way imo.

People would probably want to lynch considering which scumteam makes sense. Gamma would likely be getting the Doc in this situation, so he might not have died have died, but we'll assume he did.

In situation 1, giga and RC are arguably a likelier scum team than Paul and alban, so giga might be the lynch. Or maybe since alban is more suspicious, we'll lynch Paul to prove whether alban is town. Or maybe people decide to lynch Navy, because everybody decides to lynch Navy... I'm sure people will argue, as they always do, but it's still ultimately a decent starting point.

In situation 2, I'd say we lynch you, confirming Titus as town or you as scum. Again, others might disapprove of this and prefer a Navy lynch. Lynching you is the optimal play there though.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. I am copping who I want.
You can do what ever you like about it tomorrow.

Great. Then prepare to eat rope unless you're cleared. We cannot afford anymore bully tactics in fucking lylo.

Math has basically scumclaimed at this point. I doubt we're going into LyLo.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. I am copping who I want.
You can do what ever you like about it tomorrow.

Great. Then prepare to eat rope unless you're cleared. We cannot afford anymore bully tactics in fucking lylo.

That's also a bully tactic and if it were LyLo (MyLo, actually), it would probably just result in a town loss.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. I am copping who I want.
You can do what ever you like about it tomorrow.

Great. Then prepare to eat rope unless you're cleared. We cannot afford anymore bully tactics in fucking lylo.

Math has basically scumclaimed at this point. I doubt we're going into LyLo.

And how's that?

Pretty much every one of their post since the hammer.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. I am copping who I want.
You can do what ever you like about it tomorrow.

Goddammit, guys...

Fucking whatever, do your suboptimal bullshit. We'll find a way to play around it.

[Kelvin Smith]

My scumreads all transparently refuse to be protown and RC leads them. This is not a coincidence.

It's not a bully tactic to enforce town agreements and box in scum.

Your scumreads are who again?

[Kelvin Smith]

I cant wait to fiucking be lynched cuz I didnt go with an idiotic plan.

@Titus since u think scum can predict who im going to cop please tell me who im going to cop

It's a good plan (at least the two versions I posted), but whatever. I just can't wait for this goddamn game to be over, because it has convinced me that Mafia is not a game worth playing in any way.

[Kelvin Smith]

It's a good plan (at least the two versions I posted), but whatever. I just can't wait for this goddamn game to be over, because it has convinced me that Mafia is not a game worth playing in any way.

It's not a good plan.

I hate this game so fucking much...

[Kelvin Smith]

I just want A50 to come by so we can stop circle jerking

Yeah, I already sent him a PM to let him know.

[Kelvin Smith]

Titus, who do you think the scum team is?

[Kelvin Smith]

Titus I innocented you.

Scum can buddy. I find it ridiculously unlikely.

Titus you really fucked up if I am lynched. Navy was still attainable.

If you were town, you earned your own mislynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

No. They didn't. It was scum yelling.

I wasn't yelling for a Math lynch... I mean, I'm scum right?

RC yelled for Math lynch appealing to Kelvin who interpreted everything Math did as scum.

The Math lynch was and always has been a wagon built by me, not RC.

You basically voteparked and did nothing which made players not want to lynch Navy.

Also false. giga wanted to vote Math too, but was worried we wouldn't get it by the deadline, so was gonna settle for the crappy Navy lynch. Paul was always behind it. Gamma needed no coercion either. And you were saying earlier that you'd rather No Lynch than lynch Math, so don't act like your vote wasn't also voluntary.

Math earned their lynch through their own play. They're probably scum, so it's fine, but if they were town, they didn't do a great job of showing it.

Moot point though, because regardless, I maintain that Math was the optimal lynch.

[Kelvin Smith]

If you were town, you earned your own mislynch.

Yeah.... No.

Yes I earned my own mislynch by innocenting Titus.

*rolls eyes*

If you're town, you earned your own mislynch through your substandard play. Despite all of my best efforts to convince everyone that lynching you was the optimal strategic play, I'm fairly certain that most of the votes on you had nothing to do with people being convinced by my strategy, since most of them were already overly willing to believe Titus is town. They lynched you because they thought you were scum, not because it was the correct strategic move.

[Kelvin Smith]

The only thing my lynch does is ensure cops never claim jack ever in this game. What are you gonna do when three cops claim? Can't lynch em all Kelvin.

My lunch was never optimal in any world. You fear tunneled me.

If they all claim Innocents? Lynch them one by one, probably. It's arguably the smartest play.

[Kelvin Smith]

Until tomorrow when scum fake claim a guilty and town play as well as they are now?

Math is scum, so I welcome a fake guilty.

[Kelvin Smith]

Kelvin's thought process

-Everyone thinks you're scum.
-You're lynched.
-Flip town.
-You earned your mislynch for playing like scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

If they all claim Innocents? Lynch them one by one, probably. It's arguably the smartest play.

Lynch all the cop claiming innocent...


Oh... my... fuck...

I hope you're trolling...
If not... Oh... My... Fuck...

I've literally been saying it all this time. It's not trolling, it's called strategy.

[Kelvin Smith]

Yeah, this is why I'm not listening to you on anything.

I think Navy's post make more sense on a strategic point of view than yours...

It's ridiculous to me that people have such a hard time understanding such a simple concept...

[Kelvin Smith]

If I end up dead tonight, Titus gets lynched no questions asked. she does not get to get away with pushing a bunch of cops on me as scum then nightkilling me.

There are no Cops on you though. The Cops are revolting (read that in whatever sense of the word you want). Also, I'm more killable than you. I'm much more town.

[Kelvin Smith]

I am MathBlade the Unlynchable...

(Seriously Almost50 would love a VC)

Are you still in denial? If you are town, help us.

[Kelvin Smith]

is this twilight going to be less toxic now?

if so i'm going to keep an eye out here until i conk out

I wouldn't count on it, but I'll try to do my part to not be too much of a dick. It's really hard right now, but I'll try.

[Kelvin Smith]

How exactly can I help? All people are doing is saying plans that won't be followed and are brandishing their egos. I don't think I am lynched and I am being transparent. My reads are transparent.

The best "help" that can happen is Spam and ego reduction.

First, explain how you could legitimately not think that you are lynched. There are 6 votes on you, the requisite amount to lynch someone when 10 people are alive. I linked you to all of the votes where you were voted. You can see that nobody unvoted you or voted anybody else if you just check each person's ISO starting from the vote and moving forward.

Second, tell us what you think we could from this point on. Forget about PR plans. Talk about the circumstances surrounding your lynch and those you think most and least likely to be scum. Shows us that you are town if you want us to stop assuming that you are scum.

[Kelvin Smith]

So let's talk about Titus for a minute then. I know everybody thinks she must be town. But the level of naivete she's shown regarding Math borders on malicious negligence. Is there a possibility that she is indeed scum and that she just held back on bussing her teammate for as long as humanly possible?

[Kelvin Smith]

Fairly certain RC was scum in civ

Can confirm. I just checked.

[Kelvin Smith]

Biochem, not civilization.

Link?

Like seriously if I die Titus is confirmed Town remember that.

Stop saying "if." There is no mechanical way for you not to be dead in this setup.

[Kelvin Smith]

Interesting results. Was honestly expecting to be the one to die here, but I'll take it. I'll say more after the rest of the Cops check in.

[Kelvin Smith]

VOTE: Titus
This or Navy and we win.

No result from you then?

[Kelvin Smith]

Okay, so I wanted all results before posting this, that way scum would be less inclined to fake a result.

So Vedith is now 100% confirmed as town. Until giga's result, I hadn't considered that Maths scum flip means that any Cop that gives an Innocent result on another Cop would have to be telling the truth, regardless of their alignment. Since there is one scum Doctor and the scum team is three, there can only be a maximum of one scum in Cops.

This does mean that the strategy of lynching Cops with Innocents on other Cops won't be anywhere near as effective anymore. However, it can still work well if the Cop has an Innocent on Doctor. Though it's not something we need to think too hard about right now. For now, let's focus on the lynch. Navy isn't a terrible pick, but let's see if she gets replaced first.

[Kelvin Smith]

Actually I'm pretty sure it's just Titus/Alban then. Math was the only scum in the cops

What happened to your confidence that Titus was town? And why are you so sure there are no more scum in the Cops?