Mini Normal 2267 | Music Hits of 2010-2014 | GAME OVER

[angela]

and there are a lot of other elements to that specifically that probably not really worth getting into

as like, would a message getting through actually confirm that you are town? i'm not even sure it would even confirm that you are a mailman,

recipient could be partner, et cetera

and yes sure

i think it's accurate to say we've become stuck on you

but i guess i also don't really feel like there is another resolution right now

but will read recent pages closely and continue to think about this

and try to build all of the potential worlds

i know my absence yesterday delayed me on all of these things and that's my bad

[angela]

i think the Rb would be more focused on blocking the "confirmed" town than the person that litterally everyone is skeptical off.. No way Ktty's message makes it through tonight.

Which could be the point of the setup, Does scum block me and double down on the narrative that I'm l ying,or do they block Kitty in tellling another townie that they are confirmed.

what? why wouldn't the mafia simply kill kittytacky?

[angela]

i think the Rb would be more focused on blocking the "confirmed" town than the person that litterally everyone is skeptical off.. No way Ktty's message makes it through tonight.

Which could be the point of the setup, Does scum block me and double down on the narrative that I'm l ying,or do they block Kitty in tellling another townie that they are confirmed.

what? why wouldn't the mafia simply kill kittytacky?

which like, yes completely my fault on outing kittytacky i know, couldn't really think of another way to proceed there

but wouldn't the mafia prioritize killing kittytacky? rather than roleblocking?

[angela]

also if they turn up dead and I was blocked again. Me being blocked becomes even more logical to the game..

this just feels like another reason why your elimination makes the most sense here?

[angela]

cause when I go "here's my reads up to post 100" and people start attacking me like "WTF???" it's just like, chill out... reads evolve as you keep reading... but hey yall basically told me to stop so I did, and I'm here in live time

also hi andante

i think mostly this is the encourage vs discourage thing again

been trying to mostly give you space this game and hoping to read you from a distance though i am not really sure i am very qualified to do so

you have felt pretty consistent with past you to me

but i dunno if actually alignment indicative due to limited experience

[angela]

why? The only person other than me that Kitty has even hinted at being scum,is Nero..

Kitty has done no hunting,there is a chance they send their message to scum,killing them prevents that and wastes a kill..

not really sure it's good for me to theorizing on nightkills but here we are

because kittytacky is confirmed town and likely needs to be nightkilled by mafia at some point right

so the mafia pushing this greatly limits nightkills in the future

and also! even if not going to nightkill kittytacky, they would not roleblock

as roleblocking kittytacky accomplishes nothing kittytacky already confirmed town

like the mafia can't actually push the andresvmb suggested mafia partners fakeclaiming thing realistically,

like it seems very unlikely to me that mafia would think that would be a winning line

[angela]

Like,I'm sending my message to you again tonight if I live. If scum wants to block it,then we gotta hope Kitty picks another townie. We can't just go on your word,but after tomorrow. if someone else got the message, then you them,and whoever else plus me is 4 town..

That bloc alone can win the game..

okay and in this situation what happens if i am nightkilled? what happens if kittytacky is nightkilled and you claim you were roleblocked?

also how would someone else getting the message make that player town?

like we already have me + kittytacky town

as expressed 20 pages ago

and from there it is like, now what

[angela]

pedit-

also how would someone else getting the message make that player town?

I didn't say that..

what does this:

if someone else got the message, then you them,and whoever else plus me is 4 town..

mean then?

[angela]

Kitty has been "confirmed" by you.. Who could be anyone...
I don't see you being even close to confirmed.

eh it's nonsensical to me that you insist on kittytacky hunting instead of relying on mechanics

and that you think i might be mafia here based on play as i really don't see how any amount of 'hunting' could lead you to that conclusion

[angela]

Kitty has been "confirmed" by you.. Who could be anyone...
I don't see you being even close to confirmed.

eh it's nonsensical to me that you insist on kittytacky hunting instead of relying on mechanics

and that you think i might be mafia here based on play as i really don't see how any amount of 'hunting' could lead you to that conclusion

like i get that i am biased because i know my alignment and because i am me

and also i get that people generally do not like when i say 'i am town' and i should do so less

but it just like does not make any sense at all to me that you think

this

is what i would be doing as mafia here

like if you're town why wouldn't i have just pushed for your elimination yesterday and then not mafia at some point down the road

why would i have taken a step back when i did here to try to make sure kittytacky actually confirmed when i could just not and push your elimination through,

and there are just like, dozens of these at least

and if the answer is going to be 'to appear town'

it is like, wouldn't there be a more reasonable way for me to do so as mafia?

and wouldn't the much much much more likely conclusion simply be that i am town

[angela]

and that you think i might be mafia here based on play as i really don't see how any amount of 'hunting' could lead you to that conclusion

I said we're(I'm) not sure about you. please don't mis rep me. I didn't say you were maf outright.

i said that you think that

i

might

be mafia

like that you are saying that is a possibility, which you saying that you are not sure seems to be the same thing to me

but mostly i was trying to say that

you considering the possibility that i am mafia seems to be not based in any hunting at all, as it seems unlikely to me that hunting would lead you to that

[angela]

eh it's nonsensical to me that you insist on kittytacky hunting instead of relying on mechanics

you think it's nonsensical for kitty to stop hunting after they are confirmed?

no i think the hunting leads us in a circle back to the same place,

like you keep saying that kittytacky needs to go find other mafias,

but as i have been trying to say here, it still feels to me like the thing that needs to be resolved for this is you,

[angela]

what does this:
In post 1977, Scorpious wrote:
if someone else got the message, then you them,and whoever else plus me is 4 town..

mean then?

fair, if that person Is town. They're gonna say they got the message. if they don't then they ware scum.
Kitty will tell us. so its either a 4-town bloc or kitty found a scum.

but if that were the case

wouldn't a mafia just say they got the message? i don't understand

[angela]

Looks like Adante didn't want to be scum after all..

That slot is #1 on my radar now..

eh don't think it's alignment indicative

[angela]

Looks like Adante didn't want to be scum after all..

That slot is #1 on my radar now..

eh don't think it's alignment indicative

of course you don't...

have recent past experience with andante leaving in a very similar manner as town

so yes, of course i don't

[angela]

I think you're missing my point...
Kitty is not doing town any favors by locking on to me. They made their point. They should use the clout that you have given them to be able to move around and question freely..

How does it help town to litterally not entertain anything beyond what they were saying, BEFORE any of this came to light.

sure i mean, i should also be doing better about viewing game from a wider angle, as i said

but that still doesn't really resolve the most pressing thing to me right now

[angela]

Looks like Adante didn't want to be scum after all..

That slot is #1 on my radar now..

eh don't think it's alignment indicative

of course you don't...

have recent past experience with andante leaving in a very similar manner as town

so yes, of course i don't

I just realized I'm wasting my time.. You are tunneled on me too... You didn't even question that..

I'm done here..

??? i am taking the time to talk to you when i could just be actively pushing your elimination right now

i have expressed why i am stuck on you

my not thinking andante leaving is alignment indicative has nothing to do with that?

like it isn't either plus mafia or plus town for me

and i think it would be extremely unfair of you to say it was

[angela]

More than willing to let this slot live into D3 though, not quite definitive mafia and looks like a good player to have onboard if part of the town.

unsure of why you’re talking about someone living through day three before an elimination has occurred day two

also not really sure how potentially outside the box thinking regarding someone who was already nightkilled which could possibly be mafia indicative to you really means would be good to have around to you either

like this post is like

here’s why jacksonvirgo might be a mafia and what they might be doing with regards to pooky if so

but they should remain in the game indefinitely

like it doesn’t feel weighted based on likelihood of being mafia rather than weighted based on some perceived value to the game

[angela]

Got to give credit to scorpious at doing their very best not to get eliminated here BTW. I think you are trying too hard on too many players solid on you.

yeah good on scorpious regardless of alignment definitely isn’t on them if miseliminated and they should certainly be commended if mafia here

(though this does feel potentially cheeky on your part; my ability to judge such things is iffy at best)

[angela]

Like I say the frustration seems genuine.

okay but why do you think scum!scorpious would not be frustrated here? like i agree that scorpious seems genuinely frustrated, just asking why you think that only comes from town

[angela]

More than willing to let this slot live into D3 though, not quite definitive mafia and looks like a good player to have onboard if part of the town.

unsure of why you’re talking about someone living through day three before an elimination has occurred day two

also not really sure how potentially outside the box thinking regarding someone who was already nightkilled which could possibly be mafia indicative to you really means would be good to have around to you either

like this post is like

here’s why jacksonvirgo might be a mafia and what they might be doing with regards to pooky if so

but they should remain in the game indefinitely

like it doesn’t feel weighted based on likelihood of being mafia rather than weighted based on some perceived value to the game

Re the bolded, this feels nitpicky - was clearly speaking in terms of daykill, have no idea what mafia will do overnight.

And I'd argue saying I want the slot left in the game "indefinitely" is a complete misrepresentation of what I said. I said that presuming the town decices not to vote out Jackson who's just replaced in, I'm fine for the slot to be around tomorrow but it should come under heavy pressure given some of Andante's posts and what I wrote above. I don't think that's particularly contentious at all.

not really sure which line was supposed to be bolded here - i was speaking about pooky already have been nightkilled there so i am also not sure where our miscommunication is here

and definitely not today but maybe tomorrow feels more or less the same as 'indefinitely' to me

[angela]

Malcolm is town. Wrong town, but still town. His points read to me as coming from a town POV.

i do not really agree as it often feels to me like malcolmtucker may be aware of the alignments of others

and also the wagon behaviour here

[angela]

I’m E-2 btw…

While not a “rule” it seems like the courteous thing to do is call out E-2’s and E-1’s… Nobody in this game has been doing that..

Hence my accidental hammer. Always found it a little scummy to not do it..

Thoughts from anyone?

???

the page before you hammered there is a votecount, and geraintm thought they hammered not mafia but i corrected them to say that it was not in fact a hammer because not mafia had been self voting but moved their vote

i don't really see how this having occurred accidentally could be explained by the fact that noone said e-1

[angela]

may put my vote back tomorrow want to relook over things when able first but then yeah we'll see

[angela]

I’m E-2 btw…

While not a “rule” it seems like the courteous thing to do is call out E-2’s and E-1’s… Nobody in this game has been doing that..

Hence my accidental hammer. Always found it a little scummy to not do it..

Thoughts from anyone?

???

the page before you hammered there is a votecount, and geraintm thought they hammered not mafia but i corrected them to say that it was not in fact a hammer because not mafia had been self voting but moved their vote

i don't really see how this having occurred accidentally could be explained by the fact that noone said e-1

My mistake was counting 4+3 =7, and Not realising not mafia vote was a minus one. No idea what your excuse was

i was trying to say that your vote and your comment about the hammer and it being explained that it was not a hammer because not mafia had moved vote off self had just occurred, and there had just been a votecount,

so scorpious saying their hammer was a result of noone saying e-1 doesn’t really make much sense to me

[angela]

No idea what your excuse was

is this part directed to scorpious?

if directed to me i am not sure what you are saying as i do not know what you’d be expecting me to have an excuse for? as i knew the votecount and such

and already explained that i probably should have invited to have the conversation i was trying to have with not mafia at time of elimination

[angela]

invited

*unvoted

[angela]

His points read to me as coming from a town POV.

could you explain?

Vibes. I really can't see how he is allegedly aware of alignments. Can you and angela elaborate on that?

it’s a process thing

like it feels like malcolmtucker is working backwards not forwards

like result first and then going to find reasons for it with everything that doesn’t really fit being ignored

to me

[angela]

VOTE: Scorpious

Hammer me please..

VOTE: unvote till Jackson gets here or the slot is replaced again.

Why is their activity got anything to do with the vote on scorpious?

nothing. Just didn't want the day to end without hearing from the replacement. Your takes are ridiculously horrible this game.

VOTE: Malcom just because I think Scorp is misguided Town and I'd rather them not voted out and this is the other wagon.

Catching up now.

what do you think scorpious is misguided about? just you? or you and geraintm? or ?

[angela]

Why do you think Angela is so hesitant to vote?

i feel like i have explained why i vote the way i do in general already this game and it’s pretty much always true of me

[angela]

Let’s not forget, Gera’s lim options for D1 were me or “no lim”…

And we let that live..

this still is not true as we’ve already discussed today

geraintm said voting scorpious unless i have to vote someone else to avoid a no elimination situation

[angela]

VOTE: Scorpious

Hammer me please..

VOTE: unvote till Jackson gets here or the slot is replaced again.

Why is their activity got anything to do with the vote on scorpious?

nothing. Just didn't want the day to end without hearing from the replacement. Your takes are ridiculously horrible this game.

VOTE: Malcom just because I think Scorp is misguided Town and I'd rather them not voted out and this is the other wagon.

Catching up now.

what do you think scorpious is misguided about? just you? or you and geraintm? or ?

From what I have read, it appears to me that they are super stressed about this game and their actions according screams to me as Town that is playing sub-optimally but town nonetheless. This is again coming from what I have read. Which is pages 1-10 and all of since I replaced in without knowing the full context behind the posts.

If you could add to this with the context that you all have whether this seems like a viable read that'd be appreciated. I'll be catching up fully to see for myself soon, if not after my stream ends. Kinda don't have the full mental energy to get started yet and I am procrastinating.

i mean, i don’t even really understand what you’re saying here

like if scorpious is town, how are they playing sub-optimally other than like, interacting with people stuff?

like where do you think scorpious is wrong since you think scorpious is town but not playing well?

[angela]

VOTE: Scorpious

Hammer me please..

VOTE: unvote till Jackson gets here or the slot is replaced again.

Why is their activity got anything to do with the vote on scorpious?

nothing. Just didn't want the day to end without hearing from the replacement. Your takes are ridiculously horrible this game.

VOTE: Malcom just because I think Scorp is misguided Town and I'd rather them not voted out and this is the other wagon.

Catching up now.

what do you think scorpious is misguided about? just you? or you and geraintm? or ?

From what I have read, it appears to me that they are super stressed about this game and their actions according screams to me as Town that is playing sub-optimally but town nonetheless. This is again coming from what I have read. Which is pages 1-10 and all of since I replaced in without knowing the full context behind the posts.

If you could add to this with the context that you all have whether this seems like a viable read that'd be appreciated. I'll be catching up fully to see for myself soon, if not after my stream ends. Kinda don't have the full mental energy to get started yet and I am procrastinating.

i mean, i don’t even really understand what you’re saying here

like if scorpious is town, how are they playing sub-optimally other than like, interacting with people stuff?

like where do you think scorpious is wrong since you think scorpious is town but not playing well?

I don't think I am really explaining it that well, and I am not entirely sure how to explain it any better. The way they are expressing themselves is townie to me, but not in the way that I would normally town-read somebody, they are acting scummy in the traditional sense but not in a scummy way, in a more townie way that is overwhelmed and/or stressed about being voted out kind of way.

My god I need to read a dictionary or something to find better words.

? i think most of what others think is scummy about scorpious is mechanical stuff that i don’t know if you’ve read? like this acting scummy but it’s actually towny thing you’re talking about here is pretty ??? to me

[angela]

? i think most of what others think is scummy about scorpious is mechanical stuff that i don’t know if you’ve read? like this acting scummy but it’s actually towny thing you’re talking about here is pretty ??? to me

Ah I see. Where I don't know or have the mechanical information to directly counter the wagon as of yet. I do think they are Town from what I have read, and thus for this current moment I would rather any wagon apart from them.

scorpious claimed mailman day one
claimed sent message to me
i did not receive said message
scorpious either lying or roleblocked

[angela]

? i think most of what others think is scummy about scorpious is mechanical stuff that i don’t know if you’ve read? like this acting scummy but it’s actually towny thing you’re talking about here is pretty ??? to me

Ah I see. Where I don't know or have the mechanical information to directly counter the wagon as of yet. I do think they are Town from what I have read, and thus for this current moment I would rather any wagon apart from them.

scorpious claimed mailman day one
claimed sent message to me
i did not receive said message
scorpious either lying or roleblocked

Why would they claim that if they, as scum, knows they did not.

have to claim to have sent it to someone? because claimed the role the day before

and pooky was talking about a mafia ascetic during day one

so it seems possible they were trying to frame me as ascetic

by killing pooky to lend weight to theory and claiming sent to me and i didn’t get it

but kittytacky targeted me with friendly neighbour

thus proving ascetic thing impossible

and i think that’s most of the mechanical stuff yeah

[angela]

? i think most of what others think is scummy about scorpious is mechanical stuff that i don’t know if you’ve read? like this acting scummy but it’s actually towny thing you’re talking about here is pretty ??? to me

Ah I see. Where I don't know or have the mechanical information to directly counter the wagon as of yet. I do think they are Town from what I have read, and thus for this current moment I would rather any wagon apart from them.

scorpious claimed mailman day one
claimed sent message to me
i did not receive said message
scorpious either lying or roleblocked

Why would they claim that if they, as scum, knows they did not.

have to claim to have sent it to someone? because claimed the role the day before

and pooky was talking about a mafia ascetic during day one

so it seems possible they were trying to frame me as ascetic

by killing pooky to lend weight to theory and claiming sent to me and i didn’t get it

but kittytacky targeted me with friendly neighbour

thus proving ascetic thing impossible

and i think that’s most of the mechanical stuff yeah

Scum wouldn't 1 for 1 this early in the game. Nor would they probably ever do so at all, it benefits Town massively. Any 1 for 1 that is not in LyLo is in towns favour almost completely, even if that is with a Town PR.

scorpious was already suspected day one that’s why they had already claimed mailman and such

like they’d just be trying to continuously buy days with potential upside of eliminating me and such

after you’ve read game later we can discuss this further if you still feel the same way but it seems like it would not be an approach scum wouldn’t take to me at all

[angela]

I refuse to believe that they are so foolish, and that it got allowed by the rest of the mafia, that they thought that fake-claiming a mailman to get you eliminated from framing you as ascetic, which wouldn't even incriminate you alone. The claim is very likely real irregardless of alignment or fake irregardless. From what I have seen, I do not think that they are scum just from this mechanical information.

If it's fake, I believe it to be even more likely from Town than if they were scum irregardless of it being a completely flawed play from what I see.

they had already claimed mailman

before all of the ascetic talk

they couldn’t unclaim mailman

[angela]

scorpious was already suspected day one that’s why they had already claimed mailman and such

like they’d just be trying to continuously buy days with potential upside of eliminating me and such

after you’ve read game later we can discuss this further if you still feel the same way but it seems like it would not be an approach scum wouldn’t take to me at all

If they were suspected and thus claimed a PR role to protect themselves, why would they pick such a confirmable and thus incriminatory role to fake-claim.

less likely to be eliminated and such is the easy answer

like this has also been discussed at some length already

[angela]

It would be much more reasonable to conclude scum has a roleblocker that wanted to incriminate them since they claimed prior to doing their action and would thus be prime time wagon material

yes that is the other possibility as i have already said

[angela]

disagree that it is the more likely option however

[angela]

It would be much more reasonable to conclude scum has a roleblocker that wanted to incriminate them since they claimed prior to doing their action and would thus be prime time wagon material

yes that is the other possibility as i have already said

"the other possibility"

It's by far the most likely possibility.

i disagree

[angela]

It would be much more reasonable to conclude scum has a roleblocker that wanted to incriminate them since they claimed prior to doing their action and would thus be prime time wagon material

yes that is the other possibility as i have already said

"the other possibility"

It's by far the most likely possibility.

i disagree

How so?

Scum would not claim a role that is going to be immediately disproven the next day, and thus it would not happen meaning that the claim itself is real, at least regarding the mailman aspect. If scum!scorp wanted to claim Mailman and get away with it, they would have killed you last night to hide that missing ability without resulting to the less likely roleblock and even less likely ascetic target/frame.

If they wanted to take you down with them, they would have claimed an investigative role that red-checked you. Claiming a mailman that action failed does not align with framing you, as it wouldn't no matter which way you look at it. Therefore, why would they claim mailman here as scum if they were not. It doesn't make any sense as to why they would claim that in the position they were in.

Explain to me how a scum claiming a mailman without being a mailman is ever a decision that happens.

they couldn’t claim an investigative role to take me down because they had already claimed mailman

it seems possible to me that they were trying to take me down with it the next day though based on how it played out

like you do not know the actual sequence of events here and are claiming i think scorpious was trying to take me down with mailman from the beginning and saying that doesn’t make sense when… that isn’t what i even think might have happened??

to live extra days is why claim mailman

like it’s not super complicated

they already lived through day one and you’re arguing they should live through day two with no message or anything

so if mafia the claim would be working yes ?

so why do you think would be a terrible claim???

[angela]

how are they even going to explain living through the night claiming cop or doctor?

like i really don’t understand

[angela]

how are they even going to explain living through the night claiming cop or doctor?

like i really don’t understand

Bulletproof Cop.

do you think

mafia would potentially claim mailman day one of a normal under pressure?

[angela]

Let me quess, someone claimed mailman and claim roleblock?

yes!

scorpious has claimed mailman

and is either lying or they were roleblocked

[angela]

Also even if he is mailman then he's likely a scum mailman due to what I said earlier.

mafia mailman not actually sending a message after claiming mailman would be pretty ...

guess could also have technically been blocked by a town roleblocker but that would be ???

[angela]

VOTE: scorpious

e-2

[angela]

i am not vengeful

i simply asked about the role because i thought about it while reading the rules and andresvmb was talking about the rules

[angela]

also mentioned it because it’s something for the mafias to worry about so maybe noteworthy that rathe assumed i actually was vengeful

but not sure how to weigh that as i was once told about players more likely to be roles they talk about in a newbie after copying a mason related introduction from another game i had read

[angela]

I think we broke Enchant.

enchant was voting based on the vengeful thing i am pretty sure

probably partly because of somewhat infamous end game involving mafia!datisi and a vengeful if i am remembering correctly - i did not actually read this game have just been in a different game with datisi where it was talked about

[angela]

Fwiw, I have a really tough time seeing Angela as scum.

I’m not a fan of the elongated reasoning but that’s just playstyle.

Like, I knew they were going to vote me like everyone else in here did,but they literally took 4 days of “thoughts” to do so..

i almost unvoted again this morning to continue thinking about it today, shrug

like i know it may not seem like it to you but i am far from sure of anything and have been looking at and thinking about things when i can

[angela]

I just wish with all that reasoning Angela would come up with the right solution, but nobody is perfect.

i also wish that i would come up with the right solution and am very very far from perfect

i would even take coming up with the right solution slightly more often than i currently do

as that is the ‘why’ for all of the reasoning and such

[angela]

I think we broke Enchant.

enchant was voting based on the vengeful thing i am pretty sure

probably partly because of somewhat infamous end game involving mafia!datisi and a vengeful if i am remembering correctly - i did not actually read this game have just been in a different game with datisi where it was talked about

I saw that "you claimed vengeful", went for your iso and noticed how you asked mod about if Vengeful is normal.


WEll.
Happens.

i did not ask the moderator only other players; as it seemed potentially relevant to the way the rules were worded and i wanted to see if andresvmb would engage and such

[angela]

VOTE: geraintm

I apologize for trying to shut this down.

I think geraintm’s last set of posts pushing Scorpious seem of Scum that wants the day to end.

@Jackson, let’s do this.

hmhmhm

thoughts on what was gained from ‘let’s try this’ vote of malcolmtucker?

[angela]

VOTE: geraintm

I apologize for trying to shut this down.

I think geraintm’s last set of posts pushing Scorpious seem of Scum that wants the day to end.

@Jackson, let’s do this.

like maybe(?) geraintm pushing scorpious harder now because otherwise worried about votes shifting to geraintm

but like, it also would be pretty risky for scum!geraintm to further attach self to elimination if scorpious is town, yes?

[angela]

VOTE: geraintm

I apologize for trying to shut this down.

I think geraintm’s last set of posts pushing Scorpious seem of Scum that wants the day to end.

@Jackson, let’s do this.

like maybe(?) geraintm pushing scorpious harder now because otherwise worried about votes shifting to geraintm

but like, it also would be pretty risky for scum!geraintm to further attach self to elimination if scorpious is town, yes?

but please prioritize the other question i asked since you said you are busy and that one is much more pressing to me as it feels odd to me that you voted what became the biggest counter wagon saying ‘let’s try this’ and the moved vote to geraintm who then became the biggest counterwagon while not really saying anything about malcolmtucker or anything

[angela]

VOTE: geraintm

I apologize for trying to shut this down.

I think geraintm’s last set of posts pushing Scorpious seem of Scum that wants the day to end.

@Jackson, let’s do this.

like maybe(?) geraintm pushing scorpious harder now because otherwise worried about votes shifting to geraintm

but like, it also would be pretty risky for scum!geraintm to further attach self to elimination if scorpious is town, yes?

but please prioritize the other question i asked since you said you are busy and that one is much more pressing to me as it feels odd to me that you voted what became the biggest counter wagon saying ‘let’s try this’ and the moved vote to geraintm who then became the biggest counterwagon while not really saying anything about malcolmtucker or anything

which might be noteworthy both in terms of malcolmtucker and scorpious potentially and yeah

[angela]

scorpius what message did u get from the moderator after you sent the message to angela

Just confirmation of night action, nothing specific..

the reason i was asking is cuz the mod confirms whether the action was successful or not but nm we cant rly ask about mod action so sorry

No, mod doesh't.

depends on the action i think

like no result for some roles

[angela]

but also confused about what that has to do with mailman

[angela]

its y i dont say much cuz then i dont rly know how to explain what i mean

saying more actually generally helps understanding in mafia i have found

like just trying to rephrase the same thing or add to it where you can so others can see where you're coming from

though i know very well that this is not particularly easy and it is also difficult to remain on task of explain that one thing because there are just so many things

[angela]

I need to more carefully remember with who i playing with.

Literally i don't even know half of list.

we have played together a few times;

you replaced into radio buzz which i think may have been the first, and trust fall was the most recent

[angela]

I need to more carefully remember with who i playing with.

Literally i don't even know half of list.

we have played together a few times;

you replaced into radio buzz which i think may have been the first, and trust fall was the most recent

I don't remember you in trust fall at all.

< chavela

[angela]

ye

if whoever's town and outstanding could just vote scorpious here it'd be appreciated

can just blame me again for it if it goes wrong

but i really do feel pretty strongly that it is best elimination

and maybe i do not have it in me so much to really fight for it here if necessary

and i am worried about enchant and jacksonvirgo votes coming in on geraintm here based on their previous comments

and yeah

[angela]

ye

if whoever's town and outstanding could just vote scorpious here it'd be appreciated

can just blame me again for it if it goes wrong

but i really do feel pretty strongly that it is best elimination

and maybe i do not have it in me so much to really fight for it here if necessary

and i am worried about enchant and jacksonvirgo votes coming in on geraintm here based on their previous comments

and yeah

Is angela scum here?

obviously not

[angela]

ye

if whoever's town and outstanding could just vote scorpious here it'd be appreciated

can just blame me again for it if it goes wrong

but i really do feel pretty strongly that it is best elimination

and maybe i do not have it in me so much to really fight for it here if necessary

and i am worried about enchant and jacksonvirgo votes coming in on geraintm here based on their previous comments

and yeah

Is angela scum here?

like i worry about this aloud and then you come in and are like

malcolmtucker's points about geraintm are good!!!!

and it's like

.............................

...................................................................

..............................................................................

[angela]

anyway i still feel like

malcolmtucker is also

not a town

[angela]

I forget where my vote is.

yupyupyup

[angela]

jacksonvirgo not giving me much faith either

[angela]

jacksonvirgo not giving me much faith either

Fancy how you say this right after I start twisting against you. Scum have more reason to want to kill a PR than Town does and you and gerain are both hopelessly biased and unbudging.

Constantly saying I should also catch up fully rather than counter my argument’s.

?????

you started twisting against me right after i said i was worried about you and your vote

like ?????

[angela]

jacksonvirgo not giving me much faith either

Fancy how you say this right after I start twisting against you. Scum have more reason to want to kill a PR than Town does and you and gerain are both hopelessly biased and unbudging.

Constantly saying I should also catch up fully rather than counter my argument’s.

?????

you started twisting against me right after i said i was worried about you and your vote

like ?????

why should i be budging though

that is what i still do not understand

like you keep saying should be budging but that is based entirely on stuff i disagree with and you haven't said anything that has made me feel differently about it or anything that i hadn't already been thinking about before you arrived

i asked you to read the game because you were just not understanding the context for the conversation you were having with me

[angela]

jacksonvirgo not giving me much faith either

Fancy how you say this right after I start twisting against you. Scum have more reason to want to kill a PR than Town does and you and gerain are both hopelessly biased and unbudging.

Constantly saying I should also catch up fully rather than counter my argument’s.

Oh noooooo

What we will do without mailman!

We cannot... We... We... Hmmmm.

good

and also!!!

if scum had great reason to want to kill a pr

they could have killed the claimed mailman last night

lol

[angela]

jacksonvirgo not giving me much faith either

Fancy how you say this right after I start twisting against you. Scum have more reason to want to kill a PR than Town does and you and gerain are both hopelessly biased and unbudging.

Constantly saying I should also catch up fully rather than counter my argument’s.

Oh noooooo

What we will do without mailman!

We cannot... We... We... Hmmmm.

good

and also!!!

if scum had great reason to want to kill a pr

they could have killed the claimed mailman last night

lol

and yet jacksonvirgo thinks scum would want to kill the mailman

and does not think the mailman is mafia

because

???

[angela]

Where did I say you should be budging. The only reference to that word is my last few posts.

I think the mechanical reasoning to their SR is inherently flawed.

you noted me as being 'unbudging'

which is maybe accurate though not like, 'would not budge' but rather currently do not think it would be correct to do so

but if you do not think i should be budging, then why even say it

[angela]

Where did I say you should be budging. The only reference to that word is my last few posts.

I think the mechanical reasoning to their SR is inherently flawed.

you noted me as being 'unbudging'

which is maybe accurate though not like, 'would not budge' but rather currently do not think it would be correct to do so

but if you do not think i should be budging, then why even say it

I think you wont bcuz ur scum

okay based on????????????????????

?????????????????????????????????

me wanting to eliminate scorpious?

do you think the team is exactly

me/geraintm/rathe then?

and it just so happens the confirmed town is the other person voting scorpious right now?

[angela]

I believe Mafia to be wanting to eliminate them today. Not Nk them

if mafia roleblocked they would be wanting town to eliminate the mailman today

not do so themselfs unless could not otherwise push it over

which i've been thinking about and then this leads to the question

but where have they been exactly if scorpious is town

[angela]

I believe Mafia to be wanting to eliminate them today. Not Nk them

if mafia roleblocked they would be wanting town to eliminate the mailman today

not do so themselfs unless could not otherwise push it over

which i've been thinking about and then this leads to the question

but where have they been exactly if scorpious is town

yet another reason it seems not so likely

honestly the thing that gives me the most pause about scorpious vote right now

probably is that it feels like maybe people are potentially angling for what happens after green flip

but it's difficult to tell the difference between this and people trying to prevent red flip from occurring

[angela]

No idea where you springed Rathe from.

I don’t think you and gerain are paired. You seem to align too much for that, unless you both are pushing the exact agenda super hard which I doubt.

rathe is voting scorpious

ah convenient that i can be town now so you can vote geraintm and then it would have to be me if geraintm green and one of us mafia to you

......

[angela]

and it just so happens the confirmed town is the other person voting scorpious right now?

You think just because someone may br confirmed means they are right? Are you for real?

no i think it's ??? that you think i am mafia for no reason other than my voting scorpious

and one of the others voting scorpious is the confirmed town

like how would that be the sole thing that makes me potentially mafia while ignoring everything else i've said or done this game

when you know confirmed town is also doing so

like your process here seems questionable at best

[angela]

No idea where you springed Rathe from.

I don’t think you and gerain are paired. You seem to align too much for that, unless you both are pushing the exact agenda super hard which I doubt.

rathe is voting scorpious

ah convenient that i can be town now so you can vote geraintm and then it would have to be me if geraintm green and one of us mafia to you

......

And? I never said you can be town quit takkng my words out of context

you just said only one of us mafia to you so????????

what else would that mean exactly? other than i can be town if geraintm mafia and vice versa to you

[angela]

My read is at least one of you and gerain are scum.
And Scorp is town, and even if they aren’t they are not caught by the actions today.

okay but why am i potentially mafia?

[angela]

My read is at least one of you and gerain are scum.
And Scorp is town, and even if they aren’t they are not caught by the actions today.

okay but why am i potentially mafia?

and also it still feels like

the entire purpose of this whole thing

is for you to vote geraintm

which i was afraid of you doing

before you even arrived

anyway

enchant are you still around?

[angela]

I think you are scum for deeper reaons than you just voting scorp, thats a strawmans argument.

I think scorp is being set up, and of course that would meld with scum pushing that. I could go into more detail but I would need a keyboard I never wanted to peg my phone down the hall more than I have now.

...

that's the extent of the reasons i am aware of you having at the very least, you haven't shared the others

like there isn't any reason i would go about doing so in this way if i were scum here;

like i am aware of the possibility that scorpious is being set up as i have said many times, i still don't see why that would be more likely than scorpious being mafia here

[angela]

The only purposes I have is not killing town whilst killing scum. I do not care if its you or gerain dead today, both are equally likely scum from where I am currently standing.

vote me then and just leave your vote and go and convince others

that'd be preferable to me at this point

as i do not think you'd be able to reach majority and i would prefer scorpious being eliminated to geraintm

[angela]

like i'm town, my purpose is also to eliminate mafias rather towns, and i have been trying to do so

it's possible geraintm mafia, like i am not certain they are town or anything, far from it

but i do think scorpious is the better elimination

[angela]

I have explained why it is extremely likely that they are mailman irregardless of alignment, if they were scum it would require a town roleblocker, in which would not have happened, or a scum one. This be default assigns them as more likely town mechanically and the fact that they were not NKed at night pins the scum agenda as wanting to eliminate them, or they would be dead.

This fact again assigns the role of scum pushing them today, and the push was seemingly stupidly easy until I popped in meaning there was absolute no reason for scum to NOT push it. As the sole, at the time, anti-scorpwagon player it was no reaskn for scum to back out so they stayed. Meaning scum is pushing them, you and gerain have both overlooked all of my logic and when you couldn’t counter it further you both miscredit it by pushjbh me to read the game which is both not needed for this type of situation and also a double down to discredit my reads.

??????

i could have pushed scorpious elimination through before you arrived if you think my sole purpose was to do so, like this doesn't even make any sense

[angela]

also i disagreed with your logic as i've said many times,

i don't understand what you're even trying to say i overlooked, i certainly read your posts

[angela]

I have explained why it is extremely likely that they are mailman irregardless of alignment, if they were scum it would require a town roleblocker, in which would not have happened, or a scum one. This be default assigns them as more likely town mechanically and the fact that they were not NKed at night pins the scum agenda as wanting to eliminate them, or they would be dead.

This fact again assigns the role of scum pushing them today, and the push was seemingly stupidly easy until I popped in meaning there was absolute no reason for scum to NOT push it. As the sole, at the time, anti-scorpwagon player it was no reaskn for scum to back out so they stayed. Meaning scum is pushing them, you and gerain have both overlooked all of my logic and when you couldn’t counter it further you both miscredit it by pushjbh me to read the game which is both not needed for this type of situation and also a double down to discredit my reads.

??????

i could have pushed scorpious elimination through before you arrived if you think my sole purpose was to do so, like this doesn't even make any sense

You think this is a valid counter argument? You are again overlooking all of my logic almost in entirety

no i am saying that if you think i am mafia

because i would be keen to eliminate scorpious

and that there would be no reason for scum not to do so because easy

while ignoring the fact that i also suspected scorpious yesterday and how the day begain

then why didn't i just push the wagon through, like, ...

[angela]

also i disagreed with your logic as i've said many times,

i don't understand what you're even trying to say i overlooked, i certainly read your posts

When I say overlook I mean you completely set iy aside to throw a counter argument at a thing I never even really said or that isn’t my points.

Apologies if you understood wrong because of that.

But irregardless, you just say you disagree with the likelihood of one outcome rather than explain why you say its context. Which is not a valid counter argument, if it were/is you should quote what is necessary.

The logic for me is almost indisputable that they are Town.

i think your logic is flawed

it is not indisputable they are town to me

and i do not even think it is more likely than not

i said so at the time and i've said so since

that isn't overlooking it

and the counterargument is simply that i disagree, i do not think your conclusion follows from the information we have

like i don't know what you want in terms of a 'valid counter argument' or whatever

i've already talked about how i am not very good at logic or anything

i just don't see how scorpious could be 100% town to you

unless you are mafia, and then you would know i guess, shrug

[angela]

If they claimed PR yesterday there was no way you could have as scum without open claiming scum almost. The only valid way to miselim them is what I already suspect is the likely outcome

i think i maybe could have pushed scorpious elimination through yesterday and i think i probably should have as i have already said earlier today

and yet i'm still town

like i don't really understand why you think mafias would care so much about a mailman either

as enchant pointed out

[angela]

I also never said they were 100% where did I ever say that, you keep putting words in my mouth.

you just said indisputable????????? like what else would that mean in context

[angela]

Take my last explanation and pull it apart. Failure to do so by avoiding will be a scum claim to me

the conclusion does not follow

that's the flaw as i said

[angela]

i still don't understand what you're asking from me

[angela]

I also never said they were 100% where did I ever say that, you keep putting words in my mouth.

you just said indisputable????????? like what else would that mean in context

Read again

sorry almost indisputable

probably some percentage in the 90s in numbers then

[angela]

Take my last explanation and pull it apart. Failure to do so by avoiding will be a scum claim to me

the conclusion does not follow

that's the flaw as i said

That is not pulling apart nor explaining

i do not understand

what you're asking me to do

[angela]

Take my last explanation and pull it apart. Failure to do so by avoiding will be a scum claim to me

the conclusion does not follow

that's the flaw as i said

That is not pulling apart nor explaining

i do not understand

what you're asking me to do

like the information we have is

scorpious is lying or was roleblocked

and your conclusion is that
scorpious is probably town and was roleblocked

and i do not think that conclusion follows from the information we have

as it seems very possible to me that scum would claim mailman, it also seems possible that mafias are informed,

all of which i've already said

[angela]

The post I explained again the reasoning when you said that I didn’t explain it or whatnot. Take that and quote what you disagree with and why. For example You say you believe the likihood that the claim is fake is higher than a roleblock, why.

because the roles don't really make sense to me if scorpious town and have to weigh chance of there being a roleblocker at all in addition to roles seeming unlikely in the first place and the claim coming under pressure and it being stressed that it was 'provable' by scorpious at the time when they claimed and it adds up to it being more likely a lie than a roleblock to me

[angela]

How Mailman claim even affect attitude for Scorpious?

It's gray claim.

What

If Scoprious was scummy enough to get to claim, why mailman claim changed that?

And why it still affects?

pooky argued for mailman living because it could potentially find a mafia ascetic

and i thought pooky was town and didn't want to push through elimination pooky did not want

and i was feeling unsure of myself

it still affects because now there is also no message from the claimed mailman,

which makes even more likely mafia, plus information about setup gained from friendly neighbour

[angela]

Ill list a few conclusions that have combined to result in my conclusion.

1. Is the claim real? If it was not, they would not have claimed it as a serious claim therefore it has to be real even if they were scum.

2. Since I concluded it was real, where is the message? If they were scum it would specifically require them blocked by a Town role, as the suspicion surrounding the ability has been in the air for so long and nobody clarified their personal influence in blocking it in addition to it being stupid to block them, it is likely not the case this happened. If they are Town there are many reasons, one of which I doubt, scum role that blocked the action maliciously or ascetic. The latter being the one I do not believe to be the case, the former is my conclusion.

3. Why were they not killed if they claim PR? This is the only conclusion that I am less than confident with as it relies on the content of day 1 and the path scum chooses. If scorp was an easy wagon going into N1, it’s an easy continual wagon in D2 if they block their action. This paired with I earlier points makes me conclude that scum wouldn’t claim it if they were not along with their action still failed without influence from a town role. Therefore this being a scum agenda is a very strong possibility

All of these conclusions are hard for me to imagine occurring outside of my conclusions , trust me I tried thinking all the ways.

What points do yoh disagree with then conclusions for and why

1. they have a history of 'out there' claims as many have discussed, also could potentially be informed et cetera, though that wouldn't even be necessary though it would make it weirdly coincidental there was another message role

2. well they could have also not sent it, as has also been discussed, if actually a mafia!mailman, but as i said already that option doesn't seem so likely to me

[angela]

also it is hard for me to not feel like you are doing this in this way to prove a point and because i am struggling to understand it

and it does not feel like you are using this to sort me in anyway

[angela]

also it is hard for me to not feel like you are doing this in this way to prove a point and because i am struggling to understand it

and it does not feel like you are using this to sort me in anyway

as you could simply ask me the questions regarding if you were trying to sort me or to understand

[angela]

also it is hard for me to not feel like you are doing this in this way to prove a point and because i am struggling to understand it

and it does not feel like you are using this to sort me in anyway

as you could simply ask me the questions regarding if you were trying to sort me or to understand

instead of like, disprove me or you're mafia and also scorpious is a town!

like that's not actually how anything works but i am trying nonetheless

[angela]

1. Is the claim real? If it was not, they would not have claimed it as a serious claim therefore it has to be real even if they were scum.

like at the time they claimed i thought it was likely they were either

a mafia!mailman

or

a town!mailman

you can look back and see me saying so

but now with additional information this seems not as likely to me as lying

[angela]

If Friendly Neibor real, then Mafia!Mailman could exist to imitate this message.

But it's really crazy theory.

i thought maybe this was happening with the friendly neighbour message lol

as i was unable to determine whether the message would look any different

and it caused a whole thing

[angela]

1. Them just claiming bullshit things would only really work if they have claimed almost instantly confirmable roles as scum in the past. I have only seen BP Cop as an example and thus does not counter the chances for me personally, it is actually one of the reasons I am a bit concerned along with the addition of a FN. But as it stands it does not counter my conclusions well enough for me to change my stance.

2. They would have claimed this was the case as Town, and likely as scum as well. Especially when it would instantly incriminate them by lying, where if they fake claimed tracker, which wouldn’t they would have to fakr their check even if they failed to submit their action. It is also unlikely for scum to miss an action than a Town as there are buddies which can submit for them.

1. it's not really confirmable in anyway, if you claim it, you can claim a message and then if the person didn't get it then conclusion from sender's point of view is roleblocked or ascetic, which mafia could fake plan on faking easily, et cetera, and even if there is a message it means nothing for alignment, like i still disagree with you saying mailman would be a bad claim for a mafia to make, as i explained earlier, as it seems like an okay to good mafia claim to me,

2. it would have been an intentional no send if it was not sent i think, as part of potential frame of me i've already talked about due to pooky talking about mafia ascetic stuff

[angela]

1. Why would they not do an action whrn their life literally would depend on it
2. Scum missing an action but still killing is extremely unlikely

because the message doesn't actually confirm anything alignment wise but claiming you sent a message can potentially be used to mafia's advantage

[angela]

There's third variant.


No roleblocker.
Scorpio is maf!mailman and simple... Did nothing.

Like, why not.

by the votes right now you are likely one of the deciding votes

though nero cain was earlier voting scorpious

and then unvoted

and has recently been critical of geraintm's posting

so

(though nero cain vote/unvote also maybe hm w/ regards to +partner

but idk)

which is why i was wondering if you were around earlier to see like, how you were feeling about scorpious and such

[angela]

1. Why would they not do an action whrn their life literally would depend on it
2. Scum missing an action but still killing is extremely unlikely

because the message doesn't actually confirm anything alignment wise but claiming you sent a message can potentially be used to mafia's advantage

Mafia surviving is much more beneficial that getting them eliminated. Especially early game, they wouldn’t have made such a swingy play for many many reaons which I can’t help but srr you completely overlooking whether that be from bias/tunnel or a scum agenda

yes and the mailman claim is alive and you are fighting for them to remain alive partly based on claim and such, that is in fact surviving and nothing that mafia wouldn't potentially suspect might occur when thinking about it,

the only wrench for mafias would be the friendly neighbour

like if you look at beginning of day before i make friendly neighbour public i am being pressured by scorpious pretty heavily while scorpious saying sent me message and such, which i did not get

[angela]

1. Why is mailman a good claim for a mafia setup with no mailman? Its one of the worst possible claims.
2. A mailman frame will never happen, because it wouldn’t be a frame. Ascetic isn’t incriminating, and scum that got mailmanned as ascetic would claim as much. It’s not a play that will happen by anyone with a brain. If they planned to frame they would have not claimed mailman or even just retracted it as a joke on the basis that they bullshit claims a lot.

1. it isn't a bad claim, it can buy time, it isn't immediately suspect, and because it was claimed always have 'roleblocked' as a fallback,

2. the claim had already occurred before the frame plan would have come into play as i've said multiple times, it would have been simply using the already existing claim to do so, not claiming in order to do so

[angela]

Scum wouldn’t risk not acting or faking a claim for the chance someone would catch very specific mechanical reasonings and back them up accordingly. If so, they played trash

pooky already laid out the mechanical reasonings after the claim day one, so it would be very much expected that everyone would be aware of them and might back them up

[angela]

also it's weird that you say it would be 'trash' play when it would be largely working if scorpious is in fact mafia

[angela]

anyway i really need to go to bed,

so,

goodnight

[angela]

Yeah well I mean I think you can understand why I feel like you should always be flipped this game so not going to argue to much with you. I think my POE is pretty set and I’ll wait for some other contributions.

A possible reason for a lack of an action, if a mass-claim happens and no roleblockers exist, could be a bus attempt to gain some serious credit. I would personally be looking towards the one they supposedly "tried to frame" for that one.

This is also speculation, so I don't want to discuss this much. At least not follow through with this yet. But I also don't recall saying I feel I should always be flipped, I just think the read on me is valid considering the circumstances.

???

like it seems more likely to you that i just decided to spend hundreds of posts and massive effort on bussing for some reason than mafia were actually trying to frame me? when i could have just not? and instead put that towards something that would advance our chances of winning if i were mafia? like

…

it seems hard for me to imagine anyone actually reading me/scorpious as potentially mafia/mafia in any situation here

and i now think the frame attempt more likely than town roleblocker

[angela]

More important question.

Why mafia would have Mailmen?

traitor is possible

also can give potential results to some prs

but

mafia have multitasking so it’s not like that’d be all that notable anyway

[angela]

I am Vig, i shot KittyTacky because i didn't believe claim.

Are you confirmable going forward?

Now i understand why Mailman claim survived to Day 2.

Uh not what I asked and unclear what you mean.

Vigilante is never Scum. So if you can continue to shoot players, I’ll ignore you for today. That’s my question.

enchant is lying about vig claim; kinda weird that you think enchant is potentially really claiming though

[angela]

Yeah well I mean I think you can understand why I feel like you should always be flipped this game so not going to argue to much with you. I think my POE is pretty set and I’ll wait for some other contributions.

A possible reason for a lack of an action, if a mass-claim happens and no roleblockers exist, could be a bus attempt to gain some serious credit. I would personally be looking towards the one they supposedly "tried to frame" for that one.

This is also speculation, so I don't want to discuss this much. At least not follow through with this yet. But I also don't recall saying I feel I should always be flipped, I just think the read on me is valid considering the circumstances.

???

like it seems more likely to you that i just decided to spend hundreds of posts and massive effort on bussing for some reason than mafia were actually trying to frame me? when i could have just not? and instead put that towards something that would advance our chances of winning if i were mafia? like

…

it seems hard for me to imagine anyone actually reading me/scorpious as potentially mafia/mafia in any situation here

and i now think the frame attempt more likely than town roleblocker

I've done an elaborate bus in the past and won mostly because of it, what stops you from doing the same.

because it would not be actually beneficial to win percentage for me to have done so here

and i find the percent chance that you could have looked at our interactions and decided that it was potentially theatre incredibly small

[angela]

because it doesn’t seem like a thought town would be entertaining here

[angela]

Yeah well I mean I think you can understand why I feel like you should always be flipped this game so not going to argue to much with you. I think my POE is pretty set and I’ll wait for some other contributions.

A possible reason for a lack of an action, if a mass-claim happens and no roleblockers exist, could be a bus attempt to gain some serious credit. I would personally be looking towards the one they supposedly "tried to frame" for that one.

This is also speculation, so I don't want to discuss this much. At least not follow through with this yet. But I also don't recall saying I feel I should always be flipped, I just think the read on me is valid considering the circumstances.

???

like it seems more likely to you that i just decided to spend hundreds of posts and massive effort on bussing for some reason than mafia were actually trying to frame me? when i could have just not? and instead put that towards something that would advance our chances of winning if i were mafia? like

…

it seems hard for me to imagine anyone actually reading me/scorpious as potentially mafia/mafia in any situation here

and i now think the frame attempt more likely than town roleblocker

I've done an elaborate bus in the past and won mostly because of it, what stops you from doing the same.

because it would not be actually beneficial to win percentage for me to have done so here

and i find the percent chance that you could have looked at our interactions and decided that it was potentially theatre incredibly small

Not beneficial my ass, people have you as lock-town. Or at least one person does, and I am sure you're pretty high up for many others.

like having three mafia players alive here would be significantly more beneficial to win percentage

and they have me as locktown because i am town and it wouldn’t make any sense for me not to be

[angela]

also kinda think a partial massclaim amongst

jacksonvirgo, malcolmtucker, andresvmb, nero cain and save the dragons

might make sense here

[angela]

but am not really sure haven’t thought about that enough yet

[angela]

because it doesn’t seem like a thought town would be entertaining here

I think it's fairly obvious that I don't play like a regular Town would, nor do I want to.

okay but why would town!you think the bus

would be more likely than my being framed?

[angela]

like having three mafia players alive here would be significantly more beneficial to win percentage

and they have me as locktown because i am town and it wouldn’t make any sense for me not to be

Three mafia with one being probably dead by endgame anyway is not more beneficial than throwing them early to gain omega-cred. And you say that, but that's not why you are "lock-town", because if that's the reason, as would everyone who is Town and thus the game would be already over. Foolish

i disagree massively and think mafia doing this sort of thing outside of very very highly skilled players (catboi comes to mind) is generally terrible

across the board it doesn’t make any sense for me to be mafia here that’s why they have me as locktown, or at least why the town amongst have me as locktown

[angela]

Also why specifically mention Town!me, that is kinda useless sitting there but it appears you meant for it to have meaning, can you clarify.

because i can think of reasons scum!you would present that but not reasons that town you would believe that

[angela]

because it doesn’t seem like a thought town would be entertaining here

I think it's fairly obvious that I don't play like a regular Town would, nor do I want to.

okay but why would town!you think the bus

would be more likely than my being framed?

You weren't being framed, if it was it's you as scum acting towards an agenda. It's never a scum play, because it wouldn't ever frame.

nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope nope

[angela]

it’s frame or town roleblocker which seems unlikely

[angela]

also kinda think a partial massclaim amongst

jacksonvirgo, malcolmtucker, andresvmb, nero cain and save the dragons

might make sense here

I'm not claiming, neither should Malcom. I vibe with them

ah yes vibe with another player who at the very least has been mafia siding

[angela]

like having three mafia players alive here would be significantly more beneficial to win percentage

and they have me as locktown because i am town and it wouldn’t make any sense for me not to be

Three mafia with one being probably dead by endgame anyway is not more beneficial than throwing them early to gain omega-cred. And you say that, but that's not why you are "lock-town", because if that's the reason, as would everyone who is Town and thus the game would be already over. Foolish

i disagree massively and think mafia doing this sort of thing outside of very very highly skilled players (catboi comes to mind) is generally terrible

across the board it doesn’t make any sense for me to be mafia here that’s why they have me as locktown, or at least why the town amongst have me as locktown

The first sentence might actually be valid, my strength in a game is my scum-play personally so it might be that type of thing. However, I do not believe it difficult to bus in fact it's humorously more common than you would expect. I do not see how it wouldn't make sense "across the board", it would almost guarantee that you are positioned in the upper-tiers of the Town unless you are absolutely trash at faking tone, which I would expect was in addition to what you call highly skilled players, but that's not a difficult skill to have. If you have any sense of what you are saying, you'd find it fairly easy to at least mediocrely fake tone when doing theatre.

Do I think you are scum here? Not fully convinced, but I do see the position of you being scum as somewhat more likely than if this situation has occurred without the missing action and your seeming insistent nature to defend your stance that it was a frame. I only thought it worthy to bring this up because I do not see anybody else bringing up this possibility given the circumstances.

it is not that bussing is terrible but rather that bussing in ridiculous situations that make no sense to bus in is terrible

like scorpious claimed day one due to pressure i was partly responsible for and it would have just been bussing for bussing’s sake

and! very importantly scorpious is obviously a very strong player why would that ever have been our collective plan here

i am ‘insistent’ because it makes no sense to me that you would believe this

[angela]

it’s frame or town roleblocker which seems unlikely

It isn't a frame. Because it wouldn't frame.
Town roleblocker does seem unlikely, do you see why I think it was a bus.

Or at least if you try to pretend to be in my state of mind where I think it's not a frame, ignoring that you disagree, do you see why I think it's too awkward and that a bus attempt is likely. If not by you, than someone else but I think personally you are much more likely than others.

no i do not see as it would not make any sense based on play

[angela]

also kinda think a partial massclaim amongst

jacksonvirgo, malcolmtucker, andresvmb, nero cain and save the dragons

might make sense here

I'm not claiming, neither should Malcom. I vibe with them

ah yes vibe with another player who at the very least has been mafia siding

Define mafia siding.

consistently defending flipped mafia, in this case

[angela]

like having three mafia players alive here would be significantly more beneficial to win percentage

and they have me as locktown because i am town and it wouldn’t make any sense for me not to be

Three mafia with one being probably dead by endgame anyway is not more beneficial than throwing them early to gain omega-cred. And you say that, but that's not why you are "lock-town", because if that's the reason, as would everyone who is Town and thus the game would be already over. Foolish

i disagree massively and think mafia doing this sort of thing outside of very very highly skilled players (catboi comes to mind) is generally terrible

across the board it doesn’t make any sense for me to be mafia here that’s why they have me as locktown, or at least why the town amongst have me as locktown

The first sentence might actually be valid, my strength in a game is my scum-play personally so it might be that type of thing. However, I do not believe it difficult to bus in fact it's humorously more common than you would expect. I do not see how it wouldn't make sense "across the board", it would almost guarantee that you are positioned in the upper-tiers of the Town unless you are absolutely trash at faking tone, which I would expect was in addition to what you call highly skilled players, but that's not a difficult skill to have. If you have any sense of what you are saying, you'd find it fairly easy to at least mediocrely fake tone when doing theatre.

Do I think you are scum here? Not fully convinced, but I do see the position of you being scum as somewhat more likely than if this situation has occurred without the missing action and your seeming insistent nature to defend your stance that it was a frame. I only thought it worthy to bring this up because I do not see anybody else bringing up this possibility given the circumstances.

it is not that bussing is terrible but rather that bussing in ridiculous situations that make no sense to bus in is terrible

like scorpious claimed day one due to pressure i was partly responsible for and it would have just been bussing for bussing’s sake

and! very importantly scorpious is obviously a very strong player why would that ever have been our collective plan here

i am ‘insistent’ because it makes no sense to me that you would believe this

1. Saying that it would be bussing for bussing's sake is omitting the power of a strategic bus.
2. I have no idea how skilled either of you are, let alone does them being skilled have anything to do with it. In fact, you said earlier a very skilled mafia would be the only one to attempt this play so in fact this goes against you.
3. How does it every frame you. Them as mafia as well as being scum-read enough to claim, throwing a frame that you are ascetic which doesn't even incriminate you, does not and never will get you eliminated over them. Thus it isn't a frame, it's suicide for the sake of suicide. Why would mafia just throw one of their pieces out for no reason

1. only this would not have been strategic it would have been anti-win condition
2. no it doesn’t? like scorpious would need to remain alive for scorpious’s skill level to be beneficial to us i don’t get it
3. because they were already under pressure as you just said and because pooky had talked about the possibility of an ascetic and conveniently died in the night

[angela]

I think you're too close minded to peer into an opposing perspective regarding requesting you to look into my own perspective, especially when it's against yourself, which is fine I guess it's not easy.

i think it would be more likely my inability to do so rather than ‘close-mindedness’

as i am me and if i could be not me i would happily

hence the lyric quoted in my signature

[angela]

it’s frame or town roleblocker which seems unlikely

It isn't a frame. Because it wouldn't frame.
Town roleblocker does seem unlikely, do you see why I think it was a bus.

Or at least if you try to pretend to be in my state of mind where I think it's not a frame, ignoring that you disagree, do you see why I think it's too awkward and that a bus attempt is likely. If not by you, than someone else but I think personally you are much more likely than others.

no i do not see as it would not make any sense based on play

How so

because everything i’ve done has been openly in service of town and sure i’ve played terribly here and i ruined day one but it doesn’t feel like there is anything i have done that you think is actually mafia indicative rather that you just want to plant the thought in people’s minds

[angela]

1. only this would not have been strategic it would have been anti-win condition
2. no it doesn’t? like scorpious would need to remain alive for scorpious’s skill level to be beneficial to us i don’t get it
3. because they were already under pressure as you just said and because pooky had talked about the possibility of an ascetic and conveniently died in the night

1. It is most definitely not game-throwing, it would prop you into a higher position in the Town. Sacrificing a partner is not inherently game-throwing, nor is it even remotely when you consider the reason it would have happened if you are in fact scum here, which again I am not even willing to vote today I literally only just mentioned it.

2. Skill has almost nothing to do with it, you just replied to my additional addition of your earlier response not the main point.

3. It wouldn't have framed. Ascetic isn't a scum-particular role for starters, plus it wouldn't even have a chance of having you flip before them. It would have been much more beneficial to have a successful action N1 followed by the frame if they wanted to, which still very likely would not even work. I do not believe it to a frame, where you do. That's fine, I just disagree with you and my read on you is in association with that read.

1. i would not have done it here and think it would have been extremely negative expected value for me to have done so in this situation i do not know how else to say that

2. it once again feels like you are trying to ‘win’ our conversation not actually sort me or anything

3. right but why does your read ignore everything else?

[angela]

it’s frame or town roleblocker which seems unlikely

It isn't a frame. Because it wouldn't frame.
Town roleblocker does seem unlikely, do you see why I think it was a bus.

Or at least if you try to pretend to be in my state of mind where I think it's not a frame, ignoring that you disagree, do you see why I think it's too awkward and that a bus attempt is likely. If not by you, than someone else but I think personally you are much more likely than others.

no i do not see as it would not make any sense based on play

How so

because everything i’ve done has been openly in service of town and sure i’ve played terribly here and i ruined day one but it doesn’t feel like there is anything i have done that you think is actually mafia indicative rather that you just want to plant the thought in people’s minds

You claim that, but good scum also do that just in a way that also benefits themselves. Which a bus would also mean, getting scum killed is pro-town but also will get a bussing town to be raised high which is pro-scum.

Pro-Town and Pro-Scum can both occur by the same action.

If you are Town, I don't think you've played terribly, I just have a different perspective than most it seems. If anything it's me playing terribly, assuming you are real. You got scum dead, I fail to see how that's a failure.

i had a good read day one and failed to eliminate scorpious then despite thinking they were most likely mafia and instead i steered the ship off a cliff into a miselimination

and if we had extra elimination here game would feel likely solved

thus yes i played terribly despite having a good read

[angela]

1. only this would not have been strategic it would have been anti-win condition
2. no it doesn’t? like scorpious would need to remain alive for scorpious’s skill level to be beneficial to us i don’t get it
3. because they were already under pressure as you just said and because pooky had talked about the possibility of an ascetic and conveniently died in the night

1. It is most definitely not game-throwing, it would prop you into a higher position in the Town. Sacrificing a partner is not inherently game-throwing, nor is it even remotely when you consider the reason it would have happened if you are in fact scum here, which again I am not even willing to vote today I literally only just mentioned it.

2. Skill has almost nothing to do with it, you just replied to my additional addition of your earlier response not the main point.

3. It wouldn't have framed. Ascetic isn't a scum-particular role for starters, plus it wouldn't even have a chance of having you flip before them. It would have been much more beneficial to have a successful action N1 followed by the frame if they wanted to, which still very likely would not even work. I do not believe it to a frame, where you do. That's fine, I just disagree with you and my read on you is in association with that read.

1. i would not have done it here and think it would have been extremely negative expected value for me to have done so in this situation i do not know how else to say that

2. it once again feels like you are trying to ‘win’ our conversation not actually sort me or anything

3. right but why does your read ignore everything else?

1. Whether or not you would have done it here has no real bearing as you'd say the same thing as scum. This is a fair response I wont really add anything onto this.

2. I get like that, people tend to hate me for that aha :p

3. What is my read ignoring

3. my play mostly and the possibility that it was a frame as your reasoning for it not to be seems not really based in this game like it seems like it’s not accounting for the information we have here to me

[angela]

also kinda think a partial massclaim amongst

jacksonvirgo, malcolmtucker, andresvmb, nero cain and save the dragons

might make sense here

I have you as Town and all that for sure, but for the record, I’m not claiming, and I don’t think I should be in your POE. I’m kind of surprised you actually have me amongst the remaining names to be honest.

hm, i guess i kinda feel like claim does more potential good towards solidifying poe than it could cause potential harm here

your angle at some points early in day two felt kinda off and potentially partnery to me as i said at the time and then turn towards town reading scorpious and such as day went on

sigh sorry it me

[angela]

Yeah but then you’re ignoring my D1 completely and that doesn’t make sense to me. I was Scorpious’ main focus, and I was aggressive in my pursuit and landed back there almost towards the end of the day when I was trying to avoid a Not_Mafia execution. If you think them harping about my Town % was staged, you could make that argument, but I certainly am not going to let you just paper over all of that by looking at my D2 only.

i am not ignoring it is just that there is heavy weight on the otherside, it's not that i think you are most likely remaining mafia right now or anything, probably 5th or 6th most likely,

and kittytacky also suspected you and am giving weight to their considerations as well

[angela]

Like if you want to argue against JacksonVirgo by saying that your push against Scorpious was negative EV and you wouldn’t do that as Scum (and I agree), certainly you should apply some of that same logic to me then. Because it’s not like I was defending Scorpious early in the day and I did come out pretty strongly against them even before they returned the favor.

right but then you swerved away from it and also like i said the interactions at beginning of day two felt plus partner to me,

i do definitely need to reread once again and see how i feel, but there have been things i noted regarding your slot

[angela]

probably 5th or 6th most likely,

hm, well, idk actually trying to order the further down ones feels very difficult to me

[angela]

KittyTacky said that JV should be executed if Scorpious flips Scum. That was their main consideration if I’m reading some of the posts at the end of D2 correctly. I also think STD looks quite poor after D1 and how all of that went down (Scorpious being the main focus, and the Scum needing an alternative, momentum was there to execute STD and it didn’t happen, which means that we need to think about that).

i mean, i currently think jacksonvirgo is one of the very most likely mafias, and save the dragons was also on that list along with you, and have been thinking about this though maybe not aloud as of yet as i wanted to look back through save the dragon posts and see, though they are sparse enough where it is like, trying to connect things very difficult and i guess i would like save the dragons to come through here and just put a lot of words to how they are viewing the game right now and such

[angela]

Like if you want to argue against JacksonVirgo by saying that your push against Scorpious was negative EV and you wouldn’t do that as Scum (and I agree), certainly you should apply some of that same logic to me then. Because it’s not like I was defending Scorpious early in the day and I did come out pretty strongly against them even before they returned the favor.

right but then you swerved away from it and also like i said the interactions at beginning of day two felt plus partner to me,

i do definitely need to reread once again and see how i feel, but there have been things i noted regarding your slot

Nah I really shouldn’t be in the POE. I’m not going to insist too hard and it’s up to you but I’m not claiming and I don’t see myself as equivalent to anyone else you included in that group. And I think it’s a bit annoying because I was pushing Scorpious quite strongly D1 and you’re waving it away because I (correctly) argued Mailman was a dumb fake claim but was surprised at the implementation. Had I been around towards the end of D2, I think I would have been swayed by the argument that was put forth that not sending a message then to try and frame you, but keeping the possibility open to send a message later, was actually a reasonable conclusion. I also asked Scorpious to disclose the content of their message and their claim in the message that they hammered as a mistake was used against them. If that had been planned, I wouldn’t have them highlighted that piece as something suspicious - I would have built up the contents of the message. But whatever you do you.

poe is also larger than current number of remaining eliminations and i am not completely sure on those outside of it either but it felt like, partial claim felt more beneficial than full massclaim to me, which meant deciding where the line was but as with everything the more i think about it the more the middle section becomes very blurry

hmhmhm,

[angela]

Like the JV hammer (after defending there like they did) and the position of STD’s vote for geraintm are quite revealing. I would eliminate both slots here and then really start thinking through what’s going on if we’re going astray. I don’t think I need to really consider geraintm as Scum here in the vast majority of circumstances, Enchant a few solid posts at the end of D2 that didn’t need to happen unless there really was some insistence to bus Scorpious (and why? Their AtE was succeeding in instilling doubt in my mind for example), and Nero Cain had a vote in there D1 which highlighted how Scorpious wasn’t reading that I’m not sure they make as a Partner.

i think we are currently viewing the game pretty similarly, i'm just working through the more extended worlds i guess, as we have lots of time and such

though i still think malcolmtucker has a lot of scum equity but i am not sure entirely what to make of jacksonvirgo's posts regarding malcolmtucker if more likely to come from partner or someone hoping town malcolmtucker will help them

[angela]

Well I’m not claiming haha I don’t agree that we need to claim at this point and I think it’s somewhat disappointing that you think I should be in the POE but like I said I’m not SR’ing you. I just think it would make the game a bit easier if you can land on me Town.

i guess maybe i have not communicated how i am viewing the game very well, as i think you are pretty likely to be town but there have to be two mafia still right and i am not like, certain you are town, if that makes sense

though i still think the claim isn't really about need but rather it is more likely to have positive outcome rather than negative, and waiting doesn't seem so beneficial to me either

but if multiple of the players who would be claiming are refusing to claim it isn't a strategy that can really be employed

[angela]

I’m not going to start quoting off of my own ISO but I do think you need to look at my earlier posts because I think it’s nonsense that I would be grouped with like JV or STD. Why am I shutting off geraintm at one point then instead of cheering that on the whole time as an alternative D2, before I ended up screwing up and going back on that? Like I can make mistakes and I have, but me going back on executing Scorpious D2 isn’t like worse than you blocking that execution D1, but you want JV to give you the full benefit of the doubt on that because you were possibly framed, but then don’t want to extend that to me when I very clearly was being pushed by Scorpious D1 in bad faith. So yeah I don’t get.

a three person claim doesn't yield enough information though, it would have to be at least four to be beneficial as someone can potentially be eliminated from poe and such, and four remaining eliminations, but five makes more sense for this reason, thus a five person list,

i will look at your earlier posts though like i said, i am going to i promise,

[angela]

like i currently think all of jacksonvirgo and save the dragons and malcolmtucker are more likely than you, but suggesting only those three claim seems not as beneficial to me but maybe that doesn't make sense

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

[angela]

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like if you'd prefer a full massclaim i am also pretty amenable to that

it just felt like the partial might be better to me,

[angela]

Well, we can just rally votes and force a claim no? Like I think there’s some sense in that strategy. Openly asking for multiple players that potentially maybe are Scum in marginal situations isn’t helping the Town - it just gives the Scum some targets and more information they can use to fake claim this early. We shouldn’t give them that.

one claim not going to necessarily give us enough information though,

i think it helps the town more than the scums as the scums having targets isn't too relevant as the scums already have potential targets,

but there is argument of like, a night action potentially still being relevant but, that doesn't seem super likely to me,

[angela]

and jacksonvirgo is also refusing to claim anyway, so

I wonder why

i mean if you're going to claim town roleblocker you can do so now

[angela]

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like we can think about the future and potential outcomes while still weighing other things for today more heavily, i guess is what i'm saying,

though i also get your reaction here, as i have often felt similarly in the past, so, yeah

[angela]

Uhm, are you reading what I was responding to? angela said Kitty had doubts about my slot. I simply said that as a priority, Kitty was clearly more focused on you. I’m not even getting into the argument about why they were executed (yes, surely them being Confirmed has a lot more to do with it than their perspective or reads), but if you’re going to be arguing that a Confirmed Town voice should be listened to, the immediate argument is then okay, then JV has to go. I’m not getting into an argument about Kitty’s accuracy or any of that, but I will agree that Confirmed Town voices are valuable and they shouldn’t be discarded. I just think in this game, I’ve done enough to be considered possibly a deep wolf option if you want to put your tin foil hat on and argue marginal cases, but not a main POE, and certainly not a partial mass claim.

right but i wasn't saying that jacksonvirgo shouldn't be eliminated, though i don't think it should be done hastily here, we have time,

but you would be the deep wolf option there, amongst that list, and it is better to work on deep wolf options now rather than later, for pretty apparent reasons, to me at least

like if you'd prefer a full massclaim i am also pretty amenable to that

it just felt like the partial might be better to me,

Okay but I was pushing Scorpious in a position when it was even less beneficial to the Scum than you.

If I want Town cred for bussing Scorpious, I don’t have to go back on that D2, ever. Maybe a bit like how Nero Cain has approached the slot at times. Regardless of what they had argued mechanically, I could have tried arguing against it to keep my distance but not push it too hard and look elsewhere. But look at my posts D1 and early D2. I was trying to get some finality to the whole situation, and I argued D2 that we should then just execute Scorpious (particularly after Kitty claimed) and that I would land there, despite what mechanically I had expected. I felt too much conviction behind geraintm’s posts and I was scared away from voting Scorpious (and they’re spewed Town at this point in my mind), but that was my only hang up. I don’t think I ever tried to build an anti-case, and even after the actual claim D1, I was insistent on it not having an impact on their alignment. I just don’t have to do that.

I’m making these arguments now because I really think we need to rally around a selection and I want more debate around STD, Malcolm and JV. I think that’s vastly more helpful than debating the potential for a mass claim, or whether I should be in the POE.

it kinda feels like you are saying “angela could you pretty please i am begging you to stay on task”

which yeah i can try,

and i was just also interacting with jacksonvirgo and would be attempting to interact with malcolmtucker if they were here

and i would like save the dragons to commit more than a vote to the game

though save the dragons probably third most likely to me of those three right now

[angela]

I don't think mass claim is the way forward, andni certainly don't think anders needs to.
Wish angela would focus their attention off anders, i have the pair of you 1st and second in my town pile- right now I have save the day at the top of my most suspicious list and i will, when I have time tomorrow, go back and loom at the votes on wagons now we ha e the extra info of scorpious being scum. Bed now though

my attention not solely or even mostly on andresvmb though? like i don't fully understand why andresvmb treated it that way nor do i understand why you are treating it this way

[angela]

also i don't really understand the objections to a massclaim

like i understand that there

are

objections to a massclaim

but i do not really understand why

but if everyone going to refuse i can certainly work without it

but that doesn't mean i understand why anyone is opposed to it

[angela]

i dont think jacksonvirgo is mafia it would make more sense for him to bus scorpius not heavily defend him the way he did

hmhmhm

it is like, if mafia,

they only needed one vote though

like when jacksonvirgo is fighting hard against the scorpious elimination there they would need one additional vote on geraintm, assuming geraintm town right

and jacksonvirgo angled almost exactly for that, in a way that did not really feel towny at all,

and but so enchant/nero cain were the only outstanding votes

and then nero said would hammer whoever was voted first

and enchant voted scorpious

and then jacksonvirgo went ahead and hammered before nero cain returned

as it's not like jacksonvirgo could be like, no i'll vote geraintm hammer this one instead! at that point

ya know?

[angela]

like i guess it feels to me like the heavy defense makes a lot of sense to come from mafia there

[angela]

right and then they could send mailman message and someone get it and say, see confirmed mailman!!!!!!

like if they win battle

ya know?

[angela]

Why would scum out themselves like I did just to protect their partner.

significant upside if you win the battle and with how well and hard scorpious played this game maybe mafia would feel more compelled to fighting for scorpious

[angela]

right and then they could send mailman message and someone get it and say, see confirmed mailman!!!!!!

like if they win battle

ya know?

You're saying it's a frame as the reason for no action, yet considering that they want to use their action to confirm themselves.
What

???????

the frame at that point would have not worked as i wasn't being eliminated there

like the frame was from a completely different point in the game

so updated to end of day two there they can then be thinking, okay well ascetic angle did not work but if we can get scorpious into day three we can confirm mailman for roleblock angle

like that's how the game works everyone has to adjust to things as they occur

i don't understand how you possibly think those thoughts are contradictory

[angela]

like mafia likely were not accounting for kittytacky being a friendly neighbour and kittytacky played quite well

and there isn't really much of a way for mafia to account for that thus why i was thinking maybe informed mafia yesterday when i thought the mailman claim was likely fake

like if you asked scorpious post game what went wrong here they'll probably say it was the friendly neighbour

[angela]

I didn’t treat it that way? I wanted to immediately counter the arguments you brought up because I’m not giving anyone an opening to derail the game here. Unless you’re willing to make a comprehensive argument balancing out my posts D1 and D2, I wasn’t going to let your comment about me acting in a Partnery way D2 just slide unchallenged. I really do think that if you look at the totality of my contributions and arguments, it’s a bit absurd. I’m also against a mass claim because there’s just no need for it right now. On balance, I think the Scum benefit more than the Town. Happy to have a mass claim if both STD and JV are Town.

Having said that, I don’t think I ever argued that you had spent too much time focusing on me. That’s just not anything I said. But it’s far easier for me to make points about my own play. And I’ve made my views clear and we don’t generally disagree so not sure what else I should be talking about.

mass claim much much worse at elo

like i do not think towns should mass claim because it is something they 'need' to do, i think towns should mass claim whenever it seems more beneficial to do than to not as having additional information makes the game easier to solve

and fair enough about the rest sorry about that, maybe it just felt that way to me,

[angela]

definitely absolutely mass claim tomorrow if town is eliminated today

[angela]

like today would potentially be a day early for the claim i am aware of that

but if not today always always always tomorrow if a town is eliminated

[angela]

like today would potentially be a day early for the claim i am aware of that

though i still think today better yeah

but alas

[angela]

oh i forgot jacksonvirgo hammered forget what i said

also noteworthy that jacksonvirgo in that moment

despite having heavily defended scorpious

did not seem to question the motives of either nero cain nor enchant there

[angela]

I'm against mass claim on d2.

it is currently day three

[angela]

feeling uneasy about push for votes here no need to rush elimination

will be around later

[angela]

why would that team ever bus scorpious there??

wouldn’t enchant always vote geraintm and count on jacksonvirgo hammering?

[angela]

if enchant voted geraintm jacksonvirgo would have likely hammered geraintm?

like enchant could have put either at e-1 there

and there’s little incentive to enchant choosing scorpious if partnered

[angela]

nero would have voted whoever went to e-1 first? which I’ve thought about and it seems possible that nero could have been hoping that this would lead to jacksonvirgo voting geraintm so nero could hammer, need to look at more

and jacksonvirgo could have hammered yes?

[angela]

nero was voting whoever went e-1 jacksonvirgo was pushing for geraintm but then hammered when it went other direction as there were no longer any outstanding votes

anyway like i said will be around later to look more closely at things and such can’t right now

[angela]

I replaced in slot who voted NM, noooooooooo

What do you make of STD?

I just realised he is in game, never saw him talking duh.

Okay, so what do you make of our posts above and of his ISO in general, given he's currently a main candidate for elimination?

He is one of counterwagoners so i would quickhammer him i quess.

please no on the quickhammer

save the dragons at e-2 currently i believe

okay to return!

[angela]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

[angela]

Angela, Andres, Geraint, Rathe and myself all to varying degrees either confirmed town or leaning very strongly town I'd say barring a huge gambit from mafia.

yourself only to you, or?

[angela]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

can’t be ascetic because got a negative result rather than no result

so i think these are the only options

and mafia already have multitasking and mailman and roleblocker

so ninja seems not so likely

[angela]

jacksonvirgo clear

or possibly a ninja i guess?

but this seems less likely

I don't think Jackson is any clearer than yesterday, STD was such an obvious elimination that it was probably time for their partner to cut them loose.

i do!! but i have information i did not have at that time, so!

[angela]

Considering you believe everyone else to be townie, where would you look now that I am almost fully cleared.

but what if i am fake claiming?

mon laferte smoking gif

[angela]

(i am not)

[angela]

@angela

, what's your pool at the moment

malcolmtucker, nero cain, x

would probably be my narrowed to three because that’s how many eliminations remain

but x is not particularly helpful here

and i was lazier during the night than i should have been as i knew that i would either be nightkilled or have additional information to work with

but on it now

[angela]

Considering you believe everyone else to be townie, where would you look now that I am almost fully cleared.

but what if i am fake claiming?

mon laferte smoking gif

Why would you fake-claim here? If you're Town, you think I am scum and thus fake-claiming a clear is foolish. If you're scum, you're removing me from the PoE which is also foolish.

sorry i do not think my meaning communicated very well due to my not actually posting the gif only the intention of my doing so as phone and things like that difficult

but yeah i am not

[angela]

I don't really get what angie is claiming on you but I guess it doesn't really matter as the last scum could just be in tucker/rathe/andre

tracker

though town power seems really high with cop

[angela]

My worry is that if town has 2 investigatory roles, seems like I am.missing what scum rolls could balance that?

well they had roleblocker and mailman

and neighbourizer and stuff can give me weird results,

but still seems high yeah

[angela]

I don't really get what angie is claiming on you but I guess it doesn't really matter as the last scum could just be in tucker/rathe/andre

tracker

though town power seems really high with cop

Exactly my thought, unless the mailman was to give that slot a fake clear against you?
I have no modifications to my roll, straight up cop every night

so we have 4 clears if you’re truthful

which is town win already

[angela]

so game is just about weighing truthfulness of geraintm here

as if truthful

me, geraintm, andresvmb, jacksonvirgo all town

three eliminations left

[angela]

i am gated but specifying how seems maybe unideal

everyone else should claim

[angela]

so game is just about weighing truthfulness of geraintm here

as if truthful

me, geraintm, andresvmb, jacksonvirgo all town

three eliminations left

and if not truthful than geraintm the last mafia

so yeah

[angela]

I claim gated TA

what’s a ta?

[angela]

Traffic Analyst. Sees if a person can do private communication in any form.

do you have any relevant results?

[angela]

i guess that could wait until the other three claim if you want

[angela]

angela - gated tracker
enchant - one shot neighbourizer
kittytacky - friendly neighbour
geraintm - cop (?)
jacksonvirgo - vanilla town (clear regardless)
nero cain - vanilla town
pooky - vanilla town
not mafia vanilla town
rathe - ?
malcolmtucker - ?
andresvmb - ? (clear regardless)



mafia ? - ?
mafia roleblocker - save the dragons
mafia mailman - scorpious


is what we have so far

i will also return when able should not be too too long

if geraintm truthful > malcolmtucker, nero cain, rathe

game solved

if geraintm untruthful > geraintm

game solved

[angela]

if we eliminated in truthful pool

isn’t game solved though

because geraintm either dies or gets clear?

[angela]

okay back soon sorry sorry will hurry

[angela]

if game doesn’t end with malcolmtucker elimination, then

if geraintm lives and claims a check on someone other than nero cain/rathe (or second roleblocker)

then it is geraintm (and if there really are two roleblockers then we still have 50/50 chance of winning)

if geraintm lives and innos one of them and it is not the other

then it is geraintm

if geraintm lives and guilties one of them and it is not them

then it is geraintm

and if geraintm dies it is nero cain/rathe

so game solved yeah

cannot force a 1v1

it is hard solved i think

we eliminate malcolmtucker and geraintm checks in {nero cain/rathe}

make sure geraintm acknowledges this before ending day

[angela]

does everybody believe geraintm claim to be town

yeah what jacksonvirgo said basically -

it doesn’t actually matter if truthful game solved either way right?

unless i am missing something but i am pretty sure from the information we have that game is solved as outlined in my last post

just need geraintm to acknowledge before we can end the day

which probably won’t be for a bit as geraintm said it was late for them

so you two can unvote until geraintm acknowledges and then we can just restack the votes after

just want to make sure we don’t miss the two centimetre putt here

[angela]

i guess it matters if untruthful if geraintm is lying about claim and! is town but that would almost have to be intentionally harmful to town here and not really worth worrying about

[angela]

Please no votes, before anyone gets eliminated I need to say who I am going to investigate so angela can work with that.
I am open to suggestions on who it should be

I am travelling most of today so can't post, but we have days to sort this out so I am in rush.

I need by someone cleverer than me to be told what to do

we need you to check either nero cain or rathe

same result either way

[angela]

Angela is just as much in the investigative bullshittery as gerain is.

i am not

game is just what i explained

we can probably follow the steps from here

[angela]

I really think you guys need to take into account me being on STD on D1. Mafia simply does not do that. I'll dig out later but I consistently pushed STD on D1 too and stayed firmly off the NM bandwagon. Again - what's the benefit to mafia in doing that?

are you just arguing to not go first? or do you disagree with the solve somehow?

[angela]

or do you disagree with the solve somehow?

and if you disagree with the solve could you explain where it is wrong to you

because it is hard to think of any situations where it does not work always

outside of a second roleblocker, and even that leads to 50/50

[angela]

if malcolmtucker mafia, town wins yay

and if malcolmtucker town

then if geraintm dies in the night
eliminate nero cain
if nero cain mafia, town wins yay
if nero cain town, eliminate rathe, rathe has to be mafia in that situation, so town wins yay

if geraintm does not die in the night
then geraintm returns a result
if geraintm checks outside of nero cain/rathe or claims no result
eliminate geraintm
if geraintm town, then was roleblocked or targeted ascetic, 50/50 between nero cain/rathe, this is only possible non-solved to me, and it is unlikely because it would require another mafia role,

if geraintm returns an innocent,
eliminate the other of the two possibles,
if other is mafia, yay town wins
if other is town, eliminate geraintm, yay town wins

if geraintm returns a guilty,
eliminate the guilty
if mafia, yay town wins
if town, eliminate geraintm, yay town wins

[angela]

You most definitely are. Why would you not be

because it accomplishes nothing other than unsolving a solved game to

like my fake claiming there would have been ridiculous anyway as already discussed

i'm a night 1/2/3 tracker

i tracked scorpious night 1, who did not target anyone,

already claimed this result and will find the post where i said as much so we can just stop with the 'what if angela tho'

i tracked malcolmtucker night 2, who did not target anyone,

i tracked jacksonvirgo night 3, who did not target anyone

[angela]

already claimed this result and will find the post where i said as much so we can just stop with the 'what if angela tho'

Again I'm still fundamentally not getting how we can be unsure whether Kitty is neighbour or not if you received a message informing you of this from them. And if you were uncertain, why the immediate trust for their claim at the start of D2 vs distrust of Scorpious? You both seem to absolutely be trusting Kitty's claim while also admitting there's nothing which says it is definitively town?

a) i do not know they actually sent it, though scorpious did not unless scorpious is also a ninja,
b) already explained that the paranoia creeped in later, and if you go back and read through the day you can see when that happened, as i stated it pretty much immediately after it happened
c) i became uncertain but it still seems notably more likely than not to me

here you go

a) is my claiming my result on scorpious unambiguously

[angela]

That is purely, and I mean purely, just from your own perspective. It is not unsolving a solve, because you could very much be just scum.

Also, why would you track a claimed mailman considering the exact role of what they claim.

no i could not please stop

wanted to check claim,