Large Normal 212: Korts' Geriatrics - Game Over @1831

[Tammy]

Hi everyone!

i have not been following this game very much to have many thoughts at the moment. I have read posts here and there, but not in any kind of depth. It will take me some time to catch up though. This is final exam week, and I am buried under a ton of grading that I've got to get through, so it will take me some time to get completely caught up, and I'll probably do it in chunks as I have a minute. Apologies ahead of time for asking questions that have already been asked and answered. If that's the case, no need to get after me for it, just ignore my question and I'll see the answer when I see the answer and ask if I have a follow up.

I do have a couple preliminary thoughts. Hito is probably town based on his "grubby little fingers" or "grubby little hands" comment or whatever he said. Think that phrase points more to him being town because I think he's a player that is in the same type of sphere I am in which town energy isn't quite matched when playing a scum role, and little tones of phrases like that are things that quite frankly I don't even think to say when I'm scum but come rather freely when I'm town. Yes, it's thin. Yes, I'm projecting a bit. It's what I've got.

I'm leaning scum on Tywin. I asked to be added to the replacement list back when Chamber replaced out because I wanted this slot as I was reading Chamber town. But I wasn't at the top of the list so boo. But I did get contacted when Tywin almost was replaced out, and I read through his posts and looked at a recent town game to see what I was getting ready to replace into and thought it was a scum slot. Tywin came back though before I could say yeah I'll replace, so shoo. But I'll need to look back at that and see if he seemed better upon getting back into the game.

Pine felt posturey earlier, but I'm not sure if that's just his play style.

Oh think the chiding people for probably being scum because they're using more words than they need to to say something/anything/nothing is head bangable. It's not an alignment indicative tell for most people, it's personality based so like I've seen that used a couple times on somebody and blech.

Axelrod - you're the same player from mtgs right?

[Tammy]

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in, I'm going to scream.

[Tammy]

Hi Tammy! Sorry you replaced into a scumslot!

No need to apologize. I read Chamber right and am in fact town.

I may be a bit rusty, but I don't think my town mojo is all gone, so that should be pretty obvious soon enough.

[Tammy]

Also if Magna doesn't pick up his prod and come back when he's one of the main reasons i even looked at this game and wanted to replace in, I'm going to scream.

Wow.

Not for me?
Here I thought we were friends.

I see how it is.

There's several people here I'm happy to play with! But Magna is the reason I looked at the game in the first place.

pedit: lol. I think my scum game is a little bit better than Creature's at least. Don't know about God at town, but yeah pretty much you guys got a free easy read here.

[Tammy]

Made it through the first three pages and that's all I'll probably get through tonight. I have other responsibilities and I HAVE to get some of this grading done tonight. If I make some progress and I have some time, I'll try to get another couple pages done before I go to bed.

I don't really get a whole lot out of early pages of games, especially when I'm not there, so there's not too much.

As far as Cooldog's claim eh don't care. I treat claims like that the same way I treat miller claims. Who cares, evaluate based on on play. I'm not sure I've ever seen a fake pgo claim before, but eh. Oh though I do remember reading someone talking about how it was more likely town due to normal roleset guidelines etc., and I do caution you from town clearing him based on that. Town clearing someone based on normal ruleset guidelines and how many non-normal rules are allowed in the normal games etc only works if you're playing with someone who has a clear understanding of said rule and what to expect/not to expect. I don't really play many normal games, so like I'm clueless to those rules and what roles are in them until it gets brought up in the random normal games I play from time to time and who knows what cooldog's experience or the scum team's experience with that is. I believe my one experience with cooldog was my first official game onsite (first actual got eaten by tigers ) and he played the role of too damn stupid to be scum but was scum so like there's my baseline. Anyway just wanted to point that one out.

I actually kind of liked the beginning game concern about pine and eddie not posting confirm in the game thread. There's a little part of me that thinks it's a good little paranoid look for Magna, but I'm not jumping in that hole that deeply because yeah. Also think the playfulness about lynching Old Man for being an alt was a nice early touch. Not enough for a town read there on either of those fronts, but no red flags yet.

I don't have any issues with Eddie as of yet. I'm not sure how I would have felt real time though; I do vaguely remember him explaining some of his early game stuff and thinking okay so that could be coloring how I think about his early game play.

Not a big fan of Pine's posts though. He's just felt posturey every single time I've read a post of his. (I remember reading a post of his a couple pages ago in response to pj I think that I kinda liked, so there's a bit of a disjointedness here, but welp that's what I get for creeping here and there on this game hoping for a replace out.) Anyway,

daaaaaaaaammmmmmmmitttttttt:

But even though I don't care about that initial tell I really don't like Pine's reaction here. Seems weird that he first offered the "reason" of PMing to "ask a rules question" about rule 4 in advance of anyone actually posting anything rough, then immediately get in to spats and then later say "oh, I always confirm by PM".

I thought I was feeling clever for feeling this reaction and then boom. Although far it could have been a post I read before and I thought I had an original thought I didn't actually have and unconsciously plagiarized it before I got to it again, but yes this.

The "I confirmed by pm for a ruleset question on enforcement of toxicity" felt weak. I look at this playerlist and I don't know really who he was hoping to check on that for? If you always confirm by pm as matter of course it seems that would be the first response, so the answer feels made up. I'm not the biggest fan of Pine's interaction with Chamber either; that's where I got my first ping of him feeling posturey. Chamber's early game frustration was so real that Pine's reaction to him read completely off.

Axelrod reads okay to me so far. If he is indeed the same player from mtgs, and I think he is, then it feels business as usual. Hopefully we'll get along better than the last game we played together when I had a near melt down of frustration over the way he was reading the game and me though!

[Tammy]

Prod acknowledged ... this last weekend has been a long and emotionally painful one so I haven't really had time to do much more than occasionally phone scan.

I might be able to put together a post of some size tonight depending and know I have some responses for OldMan, PJ and someone else escaping my brain ATM.

So, so glad Tammy replaced into that slot. I had Chamber as Town but Boon tried to kill that read. Just my scanning of Tammy's entrance gives me a solid feeling she's Town and I'm very happy to have a sounding board.

Tammy

- thank you thank you for joining and for seeing what I'm seeing so far with some of your last post's reads (Axel is of particular comfort as there has been a bunch of shade going his way I couldn't grok). As you work your way through if you have reads you feel very divergent on from mine please let's confab on them. Also - how good are you at reading Fire?

Hey hi hi!

I'm sorry you had a painful weekend.

I'm not sure of my ability to read firebringer. I don't *think* I've ever misread him, but I don't think that means I'm a good reader of him as we don't have a bunch of games together. (I think I got paranoid of him in our last game together when he was town, but I'm not sure if I voiced that in thread so I'll pretend it didn't happen.) I did skim his wall post sometime back and thought it sounded fine, but I don't remember why. The posts I've read this game were pretty much me going eh I don't really want to grade this right now, let me see what the latest post in the geriatric game is and if anyone's replacing out. So it's so here and there, skim and without context. Anyway, I hope I'll get a correct read though!

I read page four last night while laying down to fall asleep but I don't remember anything I read, so I'll have to read that again. And yeah, I'll talk about my reads/your reads as I get to them and have them. I should get another few pages read this afternoon/tonight. Not sure how much but some.

And Pine! Good luck and I hope she has the baby soon!

[Tammy]

I won't be able to give you a bit of a catch up post tonight after all. I did read pages 4 and 5, but I've been grading papers all day and got shit for sleep last night. My ability to be coherent is at an all time low. I could just grade people's posts I suppose, but that would only be slightly amusing to me and a waste of time actually. K, I'm gonna try to go to sleep before my lack of sleep loopiness kicks in and I decide that's actually a good idea :p

See y'all tomorrow!

[Tammy]

I’m a big fat liar, sorry. Getting through today’s stack of papers took longer than I thought; I always thi I can do more than I can. I’m done grading papers thoiugh! Grading exams is less mentally exhausting, so tomorrow shouldn’t be a problem, I hope.

[Tammy]

I'm just going to give my thoughts on pages four and five before I forget what I read. I've had a hell of a day and my mind feels very scrambled, so if I don't make sense I apologize. Just let me know and I'll reword my thoughts. I only have 75 final exams left to grade before I'm freeeee...until Monday when summer school starts. But once I get grades submitted and the summer classes set up, my schedule gets much more manageable, and I should be able to get on top of things and stay there better.

First things first though.

Congratulations Pine!!!

I'm glad that Lady Pine and Pinecone are healthy and well.

Yeah, I remember why I forgot reading page four in the first place, most of it was just bickering and things I don't agree with. Mostly things like how a pgo should be handled and what constitutes a newbie or what questions are valuable in the first place and some other theory crap. I have poked around enough to know that Old Man claimed day two IC and so I just kind of want to be lazy and not think about his posts because he's going to be resolved day two anyway. That and his posts are kinda condescending, which I don't always terribly mind when it comes in the case of someone whose mindset I can understand I can work with. Which well yeah that remains to be seen, but as of page four I have the bird's eye view of just knowing he's wrong and right or wrong that colors my view of how much I can trust the way they're looking at the game.

To clarify my stance on Pine: I

want

Pine to be town here, but all my professional mafia policies force me to keep Pine as a nullread for now.

Really liked this post because it's one I can sympathize with.

Absolutely detest Tywin's 99. I don't have much experience with Tywin; we played one game together where I largely lurked out most of day one and was a long time ago, but I remember thinking he was nothing like his namesake because he was so jumpy That doesn't have a whole lot to do with this game; I can't quite meta him and that's old meta but it is my backdrop. Anyway, he spends most of that post bitching about the Eddie RVS wagon. I do not understand why that RVS wagon would cause him so much angst, he had to be so rawr about it. It was day one of a large when almost all wagons are started for shit reasons, and this one was okay reason wise, and are just to get something started. The game has to start somewhere. But he's acting like the entire game decided to go HARD on eddie and were trying to quicklynch him when that's not what happened. Nobody went hard like he claimed. Chamber didn't claim to have the game solved, so eh. Axelrod started the Pine wagon; I don't see where he sheeped? I don't understand the reasons for the petroleum vote - shading a potential pr because he said he didn't believe the claim? So bleh, but if I'm remembering our past experience correctly I didn't much like many of Tywin's stances or arguments but I townread him because he was so jumpy and reactionary. Probably more reactionary than I used to be or and sometimes still am because I fail at being better a lot :/

Anyway that's a lot to say I just don't like the post, but when I meta'd Tywin before maybe replacing his slot I think I picked up something he's more likely to do as town than scum, so I'll have to come back to this.

I don't agree with Axel's town read on Insanity at this point for the reasoning, but I like the way Axel is going about it getting it. I can buy that he would have that read for the reasoning that he has. I don't agree with PJ that Axel's 31 was him trying to save eddie and then making an about face earlier. If anything that post is one that I liked from Axel early because it felt lighthearted. And I disagree with Kison that his vote looked like over-justification; think that's just how Axel plays.

I do not think that Korts posting the mod clarification on the anti-toxic stuff means that it's plausible Pine really did ask that question at the start of the game. I don't think for a second that Korts would do that sort of mod-interference to support a question that may or may not have been asked in private at the start of the game. That would be awful. My first thought was that Pine asked him to make some sort of post like that that would make it seem plausible because he felt outed that Korts started the game when Pine confirmed in the scum qt, and he did it to make up for the fact that he might have inadvertently outed them that way. That would also be wrong on the mod's part probably. But, I actually like Axel's thought on the reasoning for the post because it makes the most sense and is something I didn't even think of.

Insanity - What did you like about Tywin's 99?

OH I don't think it's weird that Axel pointed out that Eddie was at L-2. At his site L-2 is when people claim, and I don't think it's weird to not want to put someone at L-1 anyway? Oh and I also liked Axel's point on Eddie and what he may have been joking about. It feels like he's really thinking about why people might be doing things.

If I felt comfortable giving early town reads these days, I'd call Axel one. He's heading in that direction at least.

Still like Hito's "grubby hands" comment. Still know it's thin, still know I'm projecting a bit.

Like Magma's (can I call you magma?) posting so far. No red flags yet anyway. I believe that how I used to be able to tell when he was more likely town still holds, so I'm hoping that's still true and I'll see it soon. (I don't think this is negated by not having a huge issue on him in the Thing where he was scum. I had red flags I didn't push like I should have, but I seem to remember saying that thing that appears to make it clear he was town wasn't there. So I have high hopes I have high hopes I can get an accurate read there.)

Pine still feels a bit posturey, again wondering if it's a play style issue and chamber didn't have an issue with him so it might be a me issue? This will be something I'll have to flesh out besides that feeling.

Tywin is my biggest concern as of now.

I'll try to get more read tonight, but I get up super early and it's well past my bed time, so no promises you'll hear from me again until later.

[Tammy]

Can you provide an example of where you've played like you have this game, but were town?

I despise demands like that. The burden of proof for meta demands is on the accuser.

Why didn't you have this response to Magna here?

Also regarding 71 – can you link me to some other Town games where you give strong Town reads very early for what I would say is a NAI posting? Because there is nothing in that post that can’t be faked easily as scum.

I don't agree it's NAI. We can talk about it, but I'm not dumping an hour trolling through old games to prove a minor point. Your implied question is "Do you do this elsewhere?" Answer: Not often, but yes. Like kmd said, it's a mindset thing. There are better ways to play a PGO claim. I don't necessarily think claiming Doc is the right route, as that might provoke a counterclaim and backfire, but dropping heavy breadcrumbs and softing recklessly would do the trick. I don't think scum gets that crotchety about it, I think they have a debate in their PT about how to handle the claim.

*shrug* I think this s just a matter of us disagreeing on some points, MoI.

Why biting in response to Chamber asking

someone else

by the way but pretty tame and mollifying when Magna asks you for a similar thing?

[Tammy]

Four big differences. First, MoI's request was for a specific piece of meta, chamber's was for a much broader topic, thus harder to actually answer satisfactorily. Second, I tend to be more sensitive to fair play issues from the outside. I play hard, and I expect to be challenged. When it's happening to others, I'm more likely to call them on something I'd tolerate myself. Third, chamber was being a dick, making unreasonable demands, while MoI was being a lot more professional.

Fourth and perhaps most important, I didn't actually honor MoI's request. I provided summary meta, but declined to dig through my past games to find the one piece of proof.

I think all of that would show consistency, rather than the reverse.

They were actually for a similar thing. Magna wanted to know when you'd called people town early, Chamber wanted to know when Eddie had played specifically like this. Which I would guess is kinda lurky, sniping from the sidelines and not doing anything in general. I mean it's pretty easy to say yeah last game I took this approach as town was X.

Chamber might have been a dick about the newbie date thing in general, I agree there, but Eddie has been being a bit dickish himself.

He certainly wasn't a dick to say can you provide a town game where you played like this.

You did respond to Magna in a more amiable way though, while jumping in the middle of Chamber's questioning of someone else to crap on his attempt to get a read somewhere else. If you're on an anti-toxic kick lately, you're kinda doing that wrong.

It just reads wrong.

[Tammy]

Posts 140 and 141 are heading in the direction of what I expect from a town!Magna. That *thing* isn't there yet where I'm like yep without a doubt, but it's headed there I think.

(There is a game that RC linked in site chat a couple weeks ago where he thought that Magna did really well as scum that I've been meaning to read to make sure, so this is here mostly as a reminder for myself to look for it again to orient myself and make sure what I'm looking for hasn't made its way into his scum game.)

Not much to say on Eddie except I kinda liked that part where he talked about "carrying everyone" but without knowing anything about Eddie I'm not sure whether that type of bravado is actually alignment indicative.

I didn't really read much of Old Man's posts but I did catch him scoffing at Magna getting after him for his word count and that he comments on what he feels like he needs to comment on, which is ironic considering him chiding Chamber et al for the proper questions and such.

Probably won't get past page six tonight.

[Tammy]

Oh also fire bringer's walls read fine in what they say, but the way he's saying it feels off. And I'm not sure if that's because he's trying out a new style and using language that isn't natural for him so tonally it feels kinda stilted, and that kind of thing always throws me off.

[Tammy]

I’m suddenly understanding exactly why chambers replaced out.

You’ve been a dick this whole game Pine, just so you’re aware. That does not jibe with your anti-toxic kick you claim to be on.

[Tammy]

I offer you post 429 on a platter. I’m not going to go through quoting your iso, but you have to realize right? I mean I know when I’m being a bitch.

You’re calling me a dick and irritating for pointing out and inquiring about a very valid point in a mafia game as I’m trying to determine your alignment.

And it is absolutely about what I think is justified or not considering the fact that I’m trying to figure out your alignment based on what you are doing in thread. When you treat a very similar question in obviously different ways, it means something. Now maybe it means you’re being amiable to magna because you want to stay on his good side. Maybe you snapped at chamber because you wanted to shut down or discredit his Eddie questioning for some reason.

Maybe it’s not alignment indicative and you just like magna and dislike chamber and you wanted to put chamber in his place, which if the case then you know you’re just being a jerk and actually creating an environment less conducive to town solving the game, right?

It was odd, and just like you told chamber, your behavior is on trial too. Sorry not sorry if you don’t like it.

[Tammy]

Boon knows my town and scum games, we have played together a LOT. His predecessor was scumreading me on meta, which is explicitly wrong because this is my town game blatantly and why I was tryna get Chamber to link the games he looked at. Boon also knows scum!him probably can't 1v1 me. Its more that that slot was probably scum and Boon flaking rather than fighting definitely didn't help that. Tammy's stuff doesn't seem bad so far though so we'll see where that goes. The reason I worded it as "lets 1v1" is because every time I've 1v1'd Boon we end up correctly townreading each other or scum!him gets lynched. The one true 1v1 we had with screaming and shit was the former and we townblocked hard.

Hmm. Boon doesn't strike me as the type to just give up like that. But if you're right about the situation, I can see where it would be a tough spot for him. And I was scum reading chamber so...maybe.

I'm missing the context of who Eddie is replying to but uh that's not what happened or at least not how it happened. After Morality made that active lurking post he made like two other posts on site and then siteflaked for a few days. He got prodded, didn't pick up his prod and I got an email asking if I still wanted to replace in. Korts sent me the role pm and pretty much at the same time, Morality came back and began the 1v1 with Eddie. But since I had already been sent the role pm, Korts considered him already replaced, so the 1v1 got cut short because he was no longer in the game.

I don't know Boon very well, but he seems like he's got a pretty big ego about his game and I can't imagine him running away even if he were scum, but that's neither here nor there because it's not what happened.

Anyway just wanted to clear that up; I might be back tonight after graduation and festivities, if not over the weekend.

[Tammy]

Note to self: I want to check something in Tammy's meta and need to find a town game or two of hers. Meh, I should probably look at a scum game or two as well just to be sure I'm not misremembering the tell I think I'm picking up.

Absolutely detest Tywin's 99

I think I picked up something he's more likely to do as town than scum, so I'll have to come back to this.

Tywin is my biggest concern as of now.

Hmm. You said when you first replaced in that you're leaning scum and I'm assuming that's still your read (correct me if I'm wrong). Are you willing to say what the meta tell was and why your reasons for scumreading him might outweigh that? And why haven't you voted him?

Have fun looking at my meta We were scum together in one of the last games I played here btw. It was Nancy's Girls game where I was in a hydra with Nacho (Imperium) and flaked.

Yes, I'm still leaning scum on Tywin. I almost replaced into his slot so I had looked at his game and cursorily skimmed a couple other games to get an idea of what I was replacing into. Besides being jumpy and reactionary, what I believe I noticed was that when he was town he was paranoid and doled out scum reads like they were candy and felt pretty forceful about it whereas when he was scum he felt more subdued. I don't think I have a great meta understanding of him; they were skim meta readings just to see if I thought I'd be replacing into a scum slot or a town slot. I thought probably scum.

Basically I thought if I came to a place where I saw paranoia and him calling half the game scum then that might mean he was town, and if I came to that then I'd probably go back and check his meta to be sure that that tell I thought I saw was even a thing. I don't consider myself a great meta reader; I mostly look for a personality baseline and if there are any glaring differences.

I'm not sure what your question about what my reasons for scum reading him might outweigh that is referring to. I did mention that I remembered that in the game we played together, I did not like many of his posts but I townread him due to his paranoia and jumpiness which I thought overrode me not liking his take on the game regardless. Are you meaning that?

I'm not voting him for two reasons. I'm not caught up. I'm not even halfway through this game and am still forming my reads. And I'm not a big voter. I realize this frustrates some people at times until they're used to me, and even after they're used to me, but I don't vote until I'm ready. And when I do vote, it's usually because I have a scumread I feel comfortable with and they're the person I want lynched.

I'm missing the context of who Eddie is replying to but uh that's not what happened or at least not how it happened. After Morality made that active lurking post he made like two other posts on site and then siteflaked for a few days. He got prodded, didn't pick up his prod and I got an email asking if I still wanted to replace in. Korts sent me the role pm and pretty much at the same time, Morality came back and began the 1v1 with Eddie. But since I had already been sent the role pm, Korts considered him already replaced, so the 1v1 got cut short because he was no longer in the game.

I don't know Boon very well, but he seems like he's got a pretty big ego about his game and I can't imagine him running away even if he were scum, but that's neither here nor there because it's not what happened.

True, but he also admitted to actively avoiding the thread before all of that. I guess it's not really "giving up" so much as hiding. I guess I could believe that Boon would do that as scum.[/quote]

Right, and I said that in the post you quoted. He made the active lurking post, and then pretty much site flaked. He made a couple other posts on site before getting prodded and then replaced. There was no hiding involved though. People in hiding don't usually post in response to getting called out with "I'm active lurking; I'll post later" and when he came back when getting replaced he did go into the 1v1. He just got replaced in the midst of that. Maybe Boon would do that as scum, but he didn't.

(There is a game that RC linked in site chat a couple weeks ago where he thought that Magna did really well as scum that I've been meaning to read to make sure, so this is here mostly as a reminder for myself to look for it again to orient myself and make sure what I'm looking for hasn't made its way into his scum game.)

Tammy can you give me some context here? I don’t EVER go in chat so I’m a bit surprised I would even be brought up there and I kind of refuse to believe that RC would be posting about me in any sort of complimentary way. Thanks!

I rarely go into site chat myself, but I've been distracting myself from grading quite a bit these past few weeks. I believe they were having a conversation about who good scum players are. Not sure what started it, but I believe it was Spiffeh who mentioned how you wrecked him in The Thing. I mentioned how I still kick myself for only limply asking you about a couple things I was concerned about, not that I think I would have been able to actually catch you there because you played excellently, but I always kick myself when I don't play my best and let things go. And RC was there and said there was a recent game he thought you played really well in and linked it. My browser crapped out on me since then, so I don't have it open in a tab anymore and am too lazy to look for it right now, but I think you replaced into it and won.

I still have over 70 finals to grade . Think I'm gonna avoid it and procrastinate here instead!

[Tammy]

Last night when I was trying to fall asleep and was kinda reading, I got to Magna's 152 and misread it as him thinking that if Pine was town then he should be reading Magna town, which confused me because it's not a post I associate with Magna making. Me, sure? Magna, I don't think so. But it gave me a strong townread there because I thought wow that's just not a post I think Magna!scum would make, but later I realized he meant Pine should be scum reading him and lol never mind. I'm not going to tell you just how long I contemplated on what that meant for his alignment with my misunderstanding because embarrassing, especially since he literally says what he means in the post.

Pine - In 153, you say that Firebringer's "Let's be Masons" thing could be a prelude to pocketing. Why? I thought that was a typical type of Firebringer statement.

I don't agree with Eddie on his 156 that a KMD!town was pretty much obligated to come out and defend him from an rvs wagon on the basis that he's a good player, but I like what it says about Eddie. It reminds me along the lines of how I've expected for certain players in the game to interact with me based on past games/personal interactions, etc. Don't know why he thought Tywin was town in isolation. Don't know why he thought Pine was genuinely sorting him, but I'm pretty sure I remember that being brought up and hashed out, so if that was a dream this is something I'll come back to if not, eh.

Eddie - When you quote stripe interact/respond to people, what are you doing? Because I believe that whatever you are doing is cutting off who you are interacting with. And I think a couple times you break up their bigger posts to respond to several, but then the next one you reply to isn't the original person's post and is someone else's and it makes it very difficult to follow. I realize this in part is a me problem. I find it very difficult to follow quote stripe walls in the first place and have an automatic dislike of them, even if it's my favorite person in the world's preferred catch up method, but when you cut out who you are replying to it makes it even more difficult for me to follow your thought process and what/who you're responding to.

I'm more comfortable with Insanity town now. It felt like he was the person voting me who was most trying to sort me. Thanks ffery for your meta stuff.

Did ffery give you meta on insanity?

Old Man - It might be psychosis from a complete lack of sleep and nonstop grading, but you've said explain so many times that I'm now reading all your posts in Dalek voice. If you could just post "exterminate" whenever you vote, you'd make my geeky heart very happy.

Angleshooting was a MafiaUniverse generated term! Pretty sure anyway. Man people use that in all kinds of weird ways.

post 175, MagnaofIllusion"]

Be less smug and condescending. If you're so out of touch you don't have any idea who Magna is, you definitely need to fuck off of your high horse.

Pine I respect you want to make things less toxic but don’t feel the need if it is on my behalf. I think OldMan is specifically being insulting as a tactic. He’s clearly an alt and I get the feeling he thinks by being insulting he can “put me on tilt” as the poker term goes. It doesn’t bother me as I recognize it for what it is.[/quote]
See, if you perceive that OM is trying to put you on tilt in order to get scum!MoI to be reckless and make a revelatory mistake, that should obviate your scumread on him. But...it isn't.

Now I *do* suspect you, for this cogdis.

@OM: Everyone has their own style. MoI not conforming to mine is not a relevant reason to think anything about him. That said, see above dissonance-based suspicion of him.[/quote]

Okay so when I said earlier that Pine felt a bit posturey, one of the things I was referring to was that it felt like Pine already knew Magna's alignment and was trying to seem like he didn't. (I thought at a couple points that maybe they were partnered playing the I don't know about you game, but I don't think I feel that way actually reading through in context, though I do still wonder if Pine knows Magna's alignment.)

Anyway, I don't understand why you got this interpretation of the post. (This couple posts I did read before and might be where I thought the above actually) Because, huh? Why did you go to this interpretation? I mean I do know that Magna clarifies in a bit and you're like okay, but I don't follow where that was your interpretation. Usually when people talk about people putting them on tilt in a mafia game it's that people are attacking them in such a way to throw them off emotionally and they end up not making sense, not having any sort of clear understanding of the game and end up a mess.

Why did you go to him thinking scum him? (Maybe that's part of the ensuing conversation, so might not need to answer, but where you went felt off.

Oh as far as the game filling up quickly, etc and so Old Man had to be invited. Eh? I had plenty of time to hem and haw over whether or not I wanted to join. Saw the waiting for the people to confirm, hem and haw some more, so not so sure on the he was invited thing. Think any of it's not alignment indicative or worth caring about.

I think roflcopter may be my spirit animal this game. We seem to be pretty in sync.

where?

Magna's continued push for OldMan looks good for Magna. The energy of it feels good so far.

I can actually buy that Firebringer's 189 is why he's scum reading Magna. He did put down both Firebringer and Titus in The Thing when he was scum, but is something that is also a product of his town game. Magna is probably more cavalier than most to express his disdain for certain players/play styles. (I'll go back and check this just to be sure that it really isn't alignment indicative though) Maaaaybe a fair point on the outsourcing of the reads thing, though I think that's something that has to be looked at in context and how he goes about it rather than the fact that the does it. If that makes sense? I like the PJ read at the end here as well as the Eddie read and guess why you're a town read bit. Also I kind of like the "I should look for what I expect from a reaction test before I reaction test" sort of thing, but if I'm right that fire bringer rather often does the let's be in thread masons thing then I don't get that as a specific reaction test.

KMD - Turnabout is fair play. At the end of 192 why was there an unvote without a revote? Kinda felt like there should be a Jelly vote there.

I actually almost always get scum pings on MoI regardless of alignment, so me not getting them probably means he's town?

Oh this was one of my biggest question marks on you because I was wondering if Magna always bugs your gut, why him not bugging your gut meant he was town instead of scum was looming. But I missed the regardless of alignment thing first time around. Do you know what it is that usually bugs your gut that isn't bugging your gut this time? And why that doesn't make you feel more conflicted?

Breaking here because this is getting too long. I'll keep reading as long as I stay awake...might pass out before you hear from me again though.

tammy devoting a lot of effort to justifying her axel townread

Know I'm jumping ahead, but I forgot to respond to this before.

I'm providing my thoughts on the pages as I'm reading them. Is there a specific thing you disagree with?

[Tammy]

So why fib about that Fire?

If this is part of the basis for the fire scum read, it's probably thin. I'm reminded of the cross-town game at mtgs where DGB asserted she could always read Thor, and it blew up because she was wrong in her assertion but maybe believed it and I think ended in both of them getting mislynched. I think it's a thing to get properly annoyed about because it is frustrating when someone claims perfect read on you when they obviously and provably haven't, but isn't always alignment indicative.

My biggest takeaway from it is what I've already said: Axel, who didn't actually join the wagon but sorta kinda condoned it & threw his vote in with Pine instead. It really did read as "I don't want to be #7 on this thing."

But alignment-wise, how do you interpret not wanting to be #7 on that thing? To me, that seems to make sense for any permutation of alignments, but this post gives me the impression you have a specific takeaway you're drawing from it.

Sure, that's fair to say. Considering the vote would have put Eddie at L-1 on page 3, it would make sense not to place it.

What I don't like is the level of effort he goes into explaining his disdain for Eddie if he's not intending to vote. He spends more time talking about it than Pine. He's "almost ready to actually believe that" Eddie confirmed in the scum PT, but also says "it's thin."

Anyway I'll give this game a proper read tomorrow.

?

Pretty much all he said about Eddie was that he agree with Magna, but he had a different point about Pine, and seemed to give more thoughts about Pine? Seemed like that was what he was referring to as thin.

moi forgive me if you've done this already but can you explain why axelrod is your strongest townread? i also wonder why kison is categorized as not yet readable while i'm in the town list, because i feel like he and i have posted about the same amount of content and our opinions are largely similar so far. you're not the only one with this weird dichotomy of townreading me and nullreading kison though as far as i can tell. there's some kind of groupthink going on with people townreading me, which is giving me the heebie jeebies for some reason.

i have this vague suspicion that hito and axel are scum together but i can't really put it into words right now

I like this post from rofl. We haven't played together for such a long time, but the last two times I played with him/saw him as scum, he was like rawr rawr rawr posture posture as scum. It felt like when he was scum, which if I remember correctly was the weaker of his alignments, he felt the need to be definitive and aggressive rather than just play, and this just feels like playing.

MY SPACEBAR IS FUCKING UP IT'S ANNOYING!

I can see that, yeah. Axel (like OM) has given me the vibe of using a lot of words to say not much. Hito is giving me overtly wolfy vibes, but I don't think a pro player like him would be that obvious. Or would he? Christ I just WIFOM-bombed myself.

Why do you think the "use a lot of words to not say much" means scum?

Can you talk about Hito's overtly wolfy vibes?

I agree with Insanity's 232 that calling rofl town for 184 is weak sauce

My cat just threw up in like five places in my apartment; I don't like my cat so much right now.

Like Old Man's real writing voice. It's easier to follow. Disagree that scum don't disagree with town reads on themselves. See that given to people for reads all the time, seen scum do it - done it myself.

Old Man - What do you like about insanity's 232?

I could, but I choose not to.

posturing

End of page 10 - Kison, Insanity and PJ's posting all have that "this post says this, this says that, this means what" quality to it that is super duper easy to fake as scum cuz its just about literal words and is hard to get a read on. Kison's post to fire has a little fire so that's nice, and rofl's post where he's seems a bit annoyed that everyone is just writing him off as town but not really reading him is good.

I'm now halfway there!

[Tammy]

I think the scum pt for that game is here: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=72448

[Tammy]

I'm super interested in the thing you thought you saw from our scum chat, so I hope you point it out before i fall asleep!

Ah on Tywin - the thing I picked up that I thought he was more likely to do as town than as scum was the paranoia and way he pushed his reads. Neither of those things was present in his posts at the point when I was almost going to replace his slot, which is why I said I might be coming back to that. I don't know what his posts were like after the prod and almost replace point, so it he looked like town once he got into the game it yes would override my dislike of his first couple posts at my almost replace in point.

Did I understand your question there?

[Tammy]

fire's in my poe now ya i'll do an updated one in my next effortpost. doesn't help he ignored my questions immediately after his post and his last post was eh.

VOTE: KMD

its sad the two of the like three or four in this game im friends with (KMD and Boon) are my two biggest scumreads though

Awe I like this post

Tywin's 255 NO FIRE synopsis bullshit NO FIRE

Insanity - In 259 you say that you missed the context due to scrolling through ISO's. Are you not reading the game as it unfolds? Are you just going through ISO's?

Hito - You wanna know why your rofl town read for managing thread culture is weak sauce? It's personality dependent, but you don't seem to be taking that into account. I've done it, seen other scum do it, but you're taking it at face value it's just town cuz scum don't do it. I didn't think that you had those kind of superficial town do this/scum do this type outlook. Also why is Firebringer's 247 gross? Dig a little deeper. Why does it benefit scum him? I really like your 262 though!

Cool Dog thinks that Tywin's 99 is a good post. I was pretty certain Cooldog and I would not see eye to eye on anything to do with mafia and ayup called that one. And further reading tells me that's bluster with little value, we will personality/playstyle clash and his thoughts won't matter to me so boooooooooop moving on. Probably just work around this one until it matters. (Pine when I say I know when I'm being a bitch, yep right here I know it.)

Still fine with Axel.

I really should go to sleep.

[Tammy]

EDDIE - You just finished a game with town!Tywin, who am I wrong people thought was scummy, is his play here different?

Fire - You have ten posts a day that you can do your engaging people thing in you know! You're not required to be standoffish!

Does anyone know insanity well enough to know if she fakes this kind of thing as scum?

I don't think I've done anything to justify this read. What do you like about me?

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

There's nothing faceable about that and once it became a town tell it ceased being a town tell.

Also you couldn't find what you were looking for in the scum chat yet? There was so little that I posted game related, it should be easy!

2. I am attempting to profile you. chamber was accusing Eddie of being scummy, then asking Eddie to prove himself innocent with meta evidence that he performs the same behavior as town... guilty until proven innocent? Here is the difference: chamber is accusing Eddie of being scum, without proof. However, I am not accusing you of anything! How are the two relevant?

Actually this is false. Chamber himself said he wasn't done properly metadiving Eddie and his only real conclusion was that Eddie seemed to enjoy being town more than scum and thought he seemed like he wasn't enjoying this game very much. He wanted Eddie to provide him with some town games that were similar to here, but unless I missed a swath of Chamber posts, his read was inconclusive and he wasn't ready to call Eddie sure scum yet.

PJ I have not been active lurking. I have more posts than anyone else, including more than thrice your total.

As Axel said, the relaxed pace makes it easy to just coast for a while and see what develops.

More importantly, though I just haven't seen anything enough that makes me want to change my mind about reads.

Oh come on, you know vote counts don't mean shit especially when you've been mostly sideline sniping. It's the living definition of active lurking.

Oh eh I have to get up in two hours. Pick up from 310 later.

Tywin is still my biggest concern.

[Tammy]

*post counts don't mean shit

[Tammy]

I finished grading! Now I’m drinking and hanging out with my other half, so unless he falls asleep or decides mafia would be fun tonight, I’ll pick this up tomorrow.

But real quick -

Lycanfire - sometimes I do pretty decent about getting into the mind of my pred’s sometimes I suck. You can ask me a question thoigh, and I can maybe answer what he was doing? Can’t promise thoight!

Magna - I’m pretty sure it was miss list 2. I have a vague recollection of reading the begiinning of your third post and thinking/saying that it’s a game I would like to read later. I don’t really remember there being much more to the conversation than that though. (About you I mean, I think the conversation continued.)

Thank you both magna and fire for explaining each other, I’m sure I’ll comment when I’m read up/sober/actually engaging while not waiting for someone to get off the phone.

Fire - I’m sorry if I insulted your. I was responding to a post you made where you were talking abut up this type of thing feeling foreign and I think you could interact more and blend yr usual playstyle with this analysus thing, and make it the best of both worlds! And I am sorry I didn’t say hi specifically, but if I said hi to everyone individually it would have been like 10 people and that’s overkill! I didn’t give anyone 0s but I am done so yay!

Pine - I don’t have any issues with you activity-wise and I can’t imagine anyone else does either. I think ou should take care of yourself and your new family and come here when you are able. That’s far more important than a silly mafia game!

Okay maybe be here later!

[Tammy]

Given that you're voting Hito at the moment, how do you feel about Tammy constantly repeating that she has a townread on Hito based on making a comment about "grubby hands"?

Can you explain what constantly repeating means to you?

[Tammy]

Wait what would coming back from a v/la have to do with how you’re reading the game? Are you reading it straight through or via ISO’s or not? And if iso why not read it straight through?

[Tammy]

I'm super interested in the thing you thought you saw from our scum chat, so I hope you point it out before i fall asleep!

I've started a post about it, but needed a break because I had loud toddlers in the room and now I'm realizing I have to catch up again so that will take priority. But basically, it stems from what I said when you first replaced in: that you are good at scum, but appear to get stressed out playing it. I still need to look at meta and am struggling to figure out what was you and what was Nacho in nancy's game.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH

There's nothing faceable about that and once it became a town tell it ceased being a town tell.

Are you speaking generally or about Insanity specifically? Because for some people, it's still a town tell.

Thank you for thinking I'm good at scum it that's real! I do hate/get stressed out playing scum. It wears me down emotionally in a different way than playing town that I have a hard time with! (I'm not sure why people have such a hard time differentiating between Nacho and me; I feel like we're so different posting-style wise.)

In general yes. For some people it might be a town tell; is there a reason you think it is for her specifically?

Given that you're voting Hito at the moment, how do you feel about Tammy constantly repeating that she has a townread on Hito based on making a comment about "grubby hands"?

Can you explain what constantly repeating means to you?

Repeated with some frequency. This is something you've mentioned as the only reason given for a Hito townread 360 and 422. I find it strange that roflcoptor calls out an over-explained Axel townread, but not a similarly odd repeated explanation of a townread on Hito (who he is currently voting).

Now that you have read more of Hito's posts, what is your current read of him?

Repeated once isn't "constant" or "with some frequency"; it's why I caught my eye. I made a statement based on random reading here and there before I replaced in, and when I got to that point said I still liked my earlier point.

The way you phrased it feel like you're using rhetoric in a dishonest way. Like you're trying to get rofl to feel even better about his scum read there and in a way that leaves your hands clean.

My read on Hito is leaning town. It's not as strong as I'd hoped it would be if he were town as I hoped I'd feel like kind of energy strongly throughout. I see hints of it elsewhere but only enough to give me a lean, but I don't really feel comfortable with my day one reads these days and leans are about as good as I get.

If you think Tammy can testify for the decency of your towngame, please feel free to request her to make a statement to convince myself and the rest of the town.

Magna does have a good town game. I don't think that reading one or two games and seeing that someone tunneled on town means they don't have a good town game in general. There's more in general to being a good town player than always having the best reads, and people have games where their reads aren't the greatest. It happens, and everyone has weaknesses.

Anyway, this is probably not the most productive line of argument.

Eddie - I'm getting lazy about cutting down quote stripes and want to spend the limited time I have tonight trying to get past a page or two. I don't think you were being waged for your join date. I realize that a few players do focus on silly things like join dates, but I don't think that's what happened here, though I appreciate you may have felt that way. Regarding dickishness - We can agree to disagree at the level of people being a dick; I don't think it really matters to the alignment of the people here and has not created a toxic game state in general. I have a lower threshold of what I consider dickish behavior and really wouldn't have brought it up other than it being brought up first and me being accused of it from trying to figure out someone's alignment when I don't think I had been.

I think that's all the stuff directed at me/that mentioned me. I'm going to try to get another page or two read tonight but I'm nursing a slight hangover and am just mentally exhausted from the past week. And I've got to try to put my sleep schedule back together now that life is back to usual.

I get that mafia is frustrating, but I hope neither or you replace out I didn't actually read the case yet and what transpired but please stay!

[Tammy]

I'm sorry for grammatical/typing issues. My keyboard is sticking, and I'm not catching all the mistakes.

[Tammy]

Also, this just in, PJ is Town. Doing his research, calling people on their shit, making me actually re-evaluate. That's Townish enough, at least for now.

This was the post I read that I liked from Pine.

I'm not sure how alignment indicative it is, but I liked it.

Trying to figure out if Eddie would be so offended by PJ if he were scum.

Tywin's 320 is thrbt and besides that I don't understand his reads.

Actually I'm just skimming from here trying to get caught up. I need to reread this page, but it's coming up on the page I replaced into, so I don't really have THAT much to catch up on.

[Tammy]

I'm in the midst of a brain melt due to race to the end of the semester/no break/summer school. I'm gonna focus on the current stuff and might be able to proceed with catching up, but I'm not promising anything. I think I need one more night of going to bed super early to get my brain back in order.

HI Ginngie HI!

Tammy I think you've redeemed the Chamber slot.

Talk to me about Tywin. I never saw the SR on him, and Lycan looks fine to me.

What about Lycan looks fine?

With Tywin I'm just not seeing any real true attempt to figure out the game. His posts felt way more synopsis of what's transpired than trying to find scum. I think Tywin, in general, makes bad looking posts in that he looks generically scummy, but from my, very limited albeit, experience there's some actual drive or fire to figure out the game.

And I looked at Tywin's posts in that game that Eddie just finished with him because he was town there, and I believe was widely scum read, but take a look at the first few posts and tell me if something seems wrong to you:

Now I'll admit to the fact that confirmation bias in knowing he's town here affects how I read the tone, but still:

Tywin's ISO in Birth of the Necromancer

I link this because he's talking about a similar thing that happened in that other game. An RVS wagon that rose up pretty quickly, and there based on a joke, so similarly based on almost nothing as here. Now he does talk about how early RVS wagons are almost always on town, so that's his true feeling, but the way he approached it here just feels so different. There feels like legitimate scum hunting and here feels like synopsis, lectures, incorrect information - he gets wrong who is pushing who, etc, and this just feels over all wrong. And that's what I feel like his posts in general in this game were, a lot of synopsis but no real scum hunting or fire.

If you think Tammy can testify for the decency of your towngame, please feel free to request her to make a statement to convince myself and the rest of the town.

Magna does have a good town game. I don't think that reading one or two games and seeing that someone tunneled on town means they don't have a good town game in general. There's more in general to being a good town player than always having the best reads, and people have games where their reads aren't the greatest. It happens, and everyone has weaknesses.

What are Magna's strengths as town?

Yeah, not buying this. But does make me believe they probably aren’t scum together.

There have been a few times when I was about to call you out for attacking poor play over scummy play, but remembered that's pretty normal for you. You've done that with old man, myself, and firebringer. The other part of it is that as soon as you see something you think is scummy, you see the worst in everything they say after that point. So, like Hito, I do always seem to scum read you. Is there a reason you think I'm making that up?

That's probably the cause of his most recent failures as town where he tunnels on town for the entire game is generally a huge distraction to town win condition -- misguided scumhunting. I've been polite so far but it seems to keep going over Magna's head so I have no choice but to be blunt. And his ego is so big that he refuses to improve even after constructive criticism has been given. Honestly I'm getting rather frustrated of his tunnelling. Normally I would cease replying to such players because it only creates a huge distraction.

I'm putting both of these together because I skimmed at work and saw this post and I want to make one post about this and be done with it.

I think Magna's strength as a town player is that he is able to effectively lead as town and usually be convincing in his cases. He has a certainty in his reads, but a willingness to change those reads that is beneficial. He is active and reads the game in a logical way that is able to spot contradictions in logic.

Town needs players like that. It needs players like that to balance out players like me who waffle on reads longer than is necessary sometimes.

Are there also some weaknesses in that? Absolutely. If his reads are right, town is in a great place; if wrong, not so much. Having bad reads sometimes doesn't make someone a bad player; it means they had bad reads. I can't think of a player who is a good town leader type player who is effective at getting his reads lynched that has not sometimes had bad reads and contributed to a town loss. That doesn't make someone a bad town player, that means they had a bad town game because they're human and humans make mistakes.

If you have what you believe is constructive criticism to an approach, then maybe save it for post game? Because what you're doing right now is probably one of the least productive things to do in a mafia game. If you really are an IC, you have no clue what his or anyone else's alignments are in this game, so none of this matters to this game. Trying to make someone feel bad about the way they play does absolutely nothing to further a town win condition. I could see your argument if you believed he was tunneling on town for the same reasons he tunneled on town in a past game, and you're pointing that out as being a reason to make this argument, but it doesn't feel like that.

All the things are cut off so I don't know who the tunnel is referring to very easily, and if it's you I completely understand how frustrating it is to get tunneled on when you're town. I've had my own wall-off as town trying to argue my case to a town-Magna who thought I might be scum. I get it, but I don't think in general trashing people's play style is very helpful to town. (I know the desire and I've succumbed to it in the past, believe me, but in general it's bad practice.)

So if there are tunneling reasons that you think are in general and wrong with reasoning, please go in that direction; I can't imagine this one bringing any positive results.

(And there's a part of me that thinks this is really bad sportsmanship on your part. It's really cool to be an alt and all; I've got my own, and I'll never say you should out. But it's really easy to sit from your space where no one knows who you are and the mistakes you've made to judge other people.)

I'll read the pj case and responses later. I'd prefer to come at the case itself more organically.

In as much as I feel like I have a "meta" on anyone, being as cold as I am, I would agree with this: Tammy gets stressed playing scum. And what she's done here so far has felt relaxed and easy-going enough for me feel pretty decent about her so far. It no doubt helps she's giving me the 'old Town read, and if she's aware enough to know that's going to boost her in my viewpoint, then good on her, I guess.

Huh, I didn't know that about you. Though I guess I've never been in a game with you where I've done that type of behavioral analysis. I am feeling a little at the meta read though, because cold as you are, when I tried to point that out in our last game you were pretty indignant that it meant nothing. (Though I suppose replacing into a slot you were decently convinced was scum could have had an impact.)

I'll read Eddie's response to the case when I come to it organically.

Eddie, I also insist that you not use the word 'retarded' pejoratively. It is just as offensive as slurs which make light of race, ethnicity, orientation, identity, or status. I'm not sure why that isn't clear to you yet.

Cosign.

GINNNNNNNNGIEEEEEE

Eddie, I also insist that you not use the word 'retarded' pejoratively. It is just as offensive as slurs which make light of race, ethnicity, orientation, identity, or status. I'm not sure why that isn't clear to you yet.

The word dick is sexist, and people call people dicks all the time. This isn't the place for a philosophical debate. If people ask you not to use a word because it offends them, obviously respect that, but people some people being sensitive for whatever reason is not a reason to... not the place for a philosophical debate.

DUDE.

I probably shouldn't have had a wind-down vodka drink before dinner, but DUDE.

(I just realized you don't have a gender listed, but dude for me is a non-gendered term)

Tywin's 320 is thrbt and besides that I don't understand his reads.

What was thrbt supposed to be? Or is it new kid slang I just don't know.

I was trying to type my reaction when I read that post:



Shouldn't you also be lecturing me about my vote/lack of vote usage?

Ginngie moving her vote to Old Man relieves some of my concern that she came in buddying Old Man because she read in scum chat that he was the IC.

Which would mean they had day chat and this is a normal game on MS which means they probably don't? so yeah that was a far-fetched concern in the first place, never mind me.

OH looking at Lycanfire shows me that I think? I missed Magna responding to me about Fire. I'll respond to that later if I didn't already. The past few days are really just blurring together on me right now.

From what I read Chamber gave himself enough space to hit the gas at will, but broke down after his slapfight with OM making a series of nonsense posts that I'll detail after an important question.

In post 475, insanity018 wrote:
Are you scumreading both Chamber and Pine? Where do you believe that Pine has interfered with Chamber's push?


Sure, I read it as S+S (128-130). Just looking at the call from TL onto Chamber and Chamber's immediate need to justify his work, only to be immediately shot down by Pine is suspect. We don't have the same Chamber with us after this exchange, in fact he will leave soon after.

>150 chamber says he isn't trying to get people to vote for eddie, while voting eddie. then why are you voting eddie?
>157 chamber hasn't properly metadived eddie... proceeds to explain how they have metadove eddie. comes to a conclusion that matches their vote, but refuses to be definite or like in 150, get people to vote eddie.

And smacked the brake pedal hard 12 hours after his post on Eddie and requested replacement.

You never asked me any questions regarding Chamber after you asked if I'd be willing to get inside his head.

I don't know what you mean by he gave himself enough gas to fire at will.

He responded to an incorrect point on him from his point of view. Why are you positing that as "justifying his work" and even if he felt the need to why would that be scum?

Why is being shot down by Pine suspect?

The remainder of your points don't really make much sense.

Chamber voted for Eddie in post 62, even by post 150 we're still only on page 6 of the game. Now I hear tell from folks all around these parts that you're supposed to vote early and often. Your vote can change as much as you want it to and should be on your biggest suspect at that moment whether or not you're trying to go for a lynch. That is the basis of all the lectures I get when I sit without a vote for the better part of a day in most games anyway.

In post 150, what he actually says is that he's still trying to evaluate Eddie and isn't trying to convince anyone else to vote him (yet). That means he scum reads him, but it's an early scum read he's trying to make sense of and see if it still holds, so he's not trying to convince anyone else to vote him at that point in time.

In post 157, metadiving and properly metadiving are two different things. He says that he read through his iso's in about five games and his impression wast that he didn't enjoy being scum while he enjoyed being town. It makes sense as a preliminary meta dive of a very small sample size of five games. And makes sense why he asked Eddie to provide him with a game where he played in this particular way as town; he is looking for a game where Eddie played this way, maybe not enjoying the game, as town to disprove his preliminary meta dive.

He didn't come to something definite because as he says he's still evaluating him and hasn't *properly* meta-dived him yet.

The argument you just made there is really superficial.

I'm gonna try to pick up with my read through where I stopped, but I really should eat something and go to sleep soon, so I might not get very far.

[Tammy]

Hito's posts so far are fine. I like his Tywin stuff. Kison's posts are fine as well, but I like them less, probably because it's more about contradictions and those are things that are super easy to logically point out and look like you're scum hunting. I also am forgetting about Kison's existence in the game until I come to a post of his, which is something I'm trying to keep on my radar because I have a tendency to let scum in that position get by me.

I think where I'm at with firebringer is that he's null. What he says is fine, and I don't buy the advocating responsibility thing for voting for his town reads because he's sheeping. I just don't think that's a thing scum usually do in that way. If fire bringer is scum, he's doing it because it amuses him to do so instead of some nefarious purpose. (I do need to reread through people's reasoning besides that. I'll do that later and come back to it, hopefully tomorrow.)

Oh, I forgot to answer that question. In brief, I would fight a D1 lurker lynch of KMD, but not oppose Tywin. I think there are better choices than Tywin though

If either of Pine or KMD flip scum, this could mean something. I don't think KMD is really a lurker? But scum do like to discredit scum reads on their partners for reasons like being a lurker a bunch.

i don't like the tywin wagon

Why not?

And I'm through 14 and just about to the point where I replace in. Should be a lot quicker for me as I'm tying up loose ends and coming to posts with more context. Gonna stop here though and try to go to sleep.

Shouldn't you also be lecturing me about my vote/lack of vote usage?

Not moving it while catching up is fine, unless it's do-or-die time. The thing I'm trying to attack now is static votes that look like they're gonna sit until deadline scramble. If you have a strong definition of when your vote should come back in to play (ie when you're caught up) it's not nearly as big an issue. I just want to make sure the coalitions that will end up forming form in time for the pressure to get reactions and for folks to clearly declare for where they want to be, instead of the coalition building being panicky and last minute such that we get weeks of no-one-above-L4 and like one day of interesting pressure.

Which would mean they had day chat and this is a normal game on MS which means they probably don't? so yeah that was a far-fetched concern in the first place, never mind me.

Korts explicitly mentioned he closed scum chat, too, so I'm pretty sure he inadvertently confirmed no encryptor. Part of why I'm sensitive to what looks like in-thread coaching.

Fair enough on the first part, and hmm just went back and saw that on the second. That pretty much kills my burgeoning concern that my "most people feel fine" thoughts is due to multiball :/

Tammy

- when you finally get shaken loose from all this end of Semester stuff can I ask you to give me a dedicated Firebringer read when you are caught up. I've taken note of your comments along the way but need a sounding board from someone I can trust.

Yep! I have that on my to do list

[Tammy]

I don't need to be prodded!

I don't have much time tonight, but my goal is to be completely caught up by the end of the weekend. I'm not forgetting to look at firebringer, which I will do as well. I still think that Tywin's slot is the most likely to flip scum, and unless his replacement has been woosville, I can't imagine another slot I'd rather lynch.

[Tammy]

GGGGGGGINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGIEEEEEEEEEE

[Tammy]

I am caught up! Stopped commenting while I was reading because that was taking too long and I was getting annoyed.

I need to reread back through firebringer and kmd though and need to properly read rofl’s Big axel post because trying to understand what he’s saying will take me more than a minute of back and forth reading.

There are a few other things I want to look back at and give my thoughts on things as a whole. That should come this afternoon at some point.

Bye pine

I saw some comments/questions directed at me which I will get to this afternoon as well!

[Tammy]

Welp I'm going to ramble a little bit until my other half gets home from work and then I'll come back this afternoon after he passes out.

I do think that in general some of this game is suffering from people being attacked or feeling attacked for their play style or poor play, and in general that's creating an environment where it's harder to get reads and have a pleasant game. Regardless of alignment, people are going to get frustrated and that just confuses the issue. I do think that Magna's frustration looks town and Eddie's frustration looks somewhat town from it. Old Man pretty much gave scum!Magna an out for making bad pushes, and while I do think there'd be some pushback because barely anyone appreciates being attacked in that way, I'm not sure there'd be that much indignation there and continued through the other points of what he pushes. This reasoning felt a lot stronger in my head than when I type it out, but I'm leaning town on Magna anyway so that doesn't matter much really.

For Eddie, it's just the pure reactionary over the top ness of it that I think could be coming from town.

Eddie - What do you teach? Also, you said that you ran Tywin through the Elli program and there was something that could mean town here. I'm not asking you to out the tell, but how strong was that and what do you think about Lycan's posting so far?

Old Man - I don't think that Magna is tunneling on you; he's not trying to lynch you today and he's got other suspects. He's pointing out stuff he thinks is still suspicious because if he's town he doesn't believe your claim, if he's scum he's trying to look like he doesn't believe your claim. But see the thing is, if you are telling the truth and you are a day two IC, none of that matters because you have an ace in the whole. You're going to be confirmed town tomorrow and you can virtual middle finger the entire game who suspected you. So here's what I did when I was an IC once. I wasn't confirmed yet and could pop it at any time, but I was trying to hold off because I wanted to live awhile. But there was a player who thought every one of my posts was scummy or fake or something; I just laughed internally because they were wasting their time. (I also believe I trolled them a bit but I don't recommend that here.) Have you worked on getting your thoughts together on KMD or fire bringer? Maybe try to ignore Magna and focus elsewhere? When I get so irritated with a player I'm getting distracted, I try to stop reading their posts and work out my thoughts on other people.

Magna - I don't think that fire bringer lying about how well he can read you is a scum tell. I've not gone through him; it's on the agenda for this afternoon, but I don't think this is a scum tell in and of itself. I think I mentioned before DGB doing a similar thing to Thor in a crosstown game, and I'm pretty sure both of them got mislynched that game and I think part of it was over the argument that was sparked because Thor thought DGB was lying about her ability to read him. And I was looking for the game that Insanity said we played together in and I'm reminded of other times I've seen it. It's very frustrating because when it's happened to me most often is when some player claims they can read me perfectly, but actually as a bad record of it, and tunnels me while I'm town. Most of the time it's been town doing it because well who knows why they do it, but my point is that town do make that claim all the time while being provably wrong. Scum!firebringer would have to be lying about something he knows can be provably wrong while town!firebringer is using it for emphasis or because he thinks he has a better record than he has. I mean who knows; I just don't think it's a scum tell in and of itself.

Forgot the quotes for Tammy but she said this below
I link this because he's talking about a similar thing that happened in that other game. An RVS wagon that rose up pretty quickly, and there based on a joke, so similarly based on almost nothing as here. Now he does talk about how early RVS wagons are almost always on town, so that's his true feeling, but the way he approached it here just feels so different. There feels like legitimate scum hunting and here feels like synopsis, lectures, incorrect information - he gets wrong who is pushing who, etc, and this just feels over all wrong. And that's what I feel like his posts in general in this game were, a lot of synopsis but no real scum hunting or fire. - Tammy

I don't mean to be a pain in the ass, but could you help me follow where you're going with this?

I think that Tywin is probably scum. The problem with Tywin is that he has in general generically scummy posting. I thought that the way he has approached this game felt more about synopsis than scum hunting. Why I was comparing the two was because in this game there was a quick RVS wagon that formed on Eddie and in that game there was a quick RVS wagon that formed on Nancy Drew. The way he assessed that particular game and the reactions from the wagon was actual scum hunting (though yes I know I know he was town so that colors things.) But here, in this game, he felt like he was more summarizing and lecturing than actually scum hunting.

Do you have experience with either him or Lycanfire?

You've said you're basically caught up but you have given that many thoughts; what are your thoughts?

Also,

Yeah I'll be reading the last like 10 pages privately but consider me caught up enough

Also lol @ the old man for thinking I don't read the scum chat before I start posting in games.

If I was scum, why the fuck would I have even pushed you to begin with if I was told you were an IC beforehand

derp clear DENIED

Cooldog's case on Hito is basically Hito's playing the game so he's scum. Anyway that's how I read it. None of those things are scummy like ever, never have been never will be. My only real concern with Hito is it feels like he's policing votes and lecturing about proper vote play a little too much, which while I'm pretty sure I've read md discussions he's written these are his real thoughts, I sometimes get concerned he's using that as a way to look busy and productive. I don't get that feeling most of the time when I'm reading his other posts though so it's not a huge thing just a bit of a ping.

PJ's case on Eddie was okay. I don't understand why Pine liked it as much as he did. The first half of the case was weak, the last half fine as far as showing a thought process I could understand but didn't it was convincing overall.

Okay be back at some point this afternoon!

[Tammy]

However, what does point to town is a secret general tell I've used Elli's program to test that's been pretty effective in the past.

this doesnt mean I have a tywin tell, it's a general tell that kind of applies to tywin but Lycan is not being town so meh.

what are your thoughts on roflcopter tammy?

Ah okay.

roflcopter is someone I want to look at this afternoon as well. It's been a long time since I've played with rofl, but my memory of him is a player that relies on gut a lot, but that's pretty much it. I don't think he liked playing scum much iirc. So his pop ins every now and then just felt like rofl being rofl, but now he's put out an actual case and seeing what I think of that case and him will take me some time to go back and forth and look at context.

One thing I did realize the other day is that I've thought most people seem fine. I think the only people I haven't said are fine are insanity, tywin, pine, pj and kmd. I think. So I need to get a better handle on how I actually feel about people.

One thing I've been rolling around are people like rofl or pine who've just been Tywin's town or is fine when like he just reads so scummy. And I'm not typically a person who thinks you have to see exactly what I'm seeing, so it's not that, but it just feels weird. It's hard to determine what any of that could mean, if anything, until we have a flip or two there but it's on my mind right now.

[Tammy]

I'm digging Lycan for town tbh

Also Hito, word of advice that I've learned from Nacho.

If you don't know where to put your vote, put it on town.

Why are you reading Lycan town?

I've never heard nacho say that before, heh.

[Tammy]

I am drunk! Well not three sheets to the wind drunk, but a couple. I don't really drink much anymore so my afternoon excess did me in. I just tell you this because sometimes when I've been drinking I word things weirdly, so the things I want to say and the questions I want to ask aren't clear. I don't think I'm that far gone that it would be an issue, but in case I do just let me know it makes no sense, and I'll word it better when I'm sober. (I also just got some depressing news about a friend; I'm not sure how this is going to affect my posting mood, so apologies for possible weirdness in advance.)

Ginngie - I noticed earlier that you have Eddie Cane in your signature. Why haven't you been interacting with him?

Old Man - Apologies. I wasn't trying to tell you how to play, but you seemed a bit disheartened and irritated and I thought another viewpoint might help.

i completely do not care what tywin/lycan are even posting they could have posted a million ascii dicks and it would still be a day one mislynch wagon

But WHY DO YOU THINK THAT???

tammy post 623: tywin is someone who is always generically scummy

tammy post 627: it is so weird that rofl doesn't see tywin as scummy like i do

^ reason number 9000 why i don't care

also yeah tammy i totally do play by gut and usually don't even bother trying to put a case into words but y'all kept whining for me to do it and i've been in hibernation for so long that i guess i've lost my shine and people don't just sheep me anymore

like seriously i really want to trust my tammy townread but ffs stop pushing what you basically just admitted is a village idiot lynch

"this guy always looks scummy perfect day one lynch amiright?"

Why do you think I'm town when you earlier thought I was going out of my way to justify my axel town read???

Also if that's your takeaway from what I've been saying, you're either not reading what I've been saying, completely misinterpreting or I'm being unclear.

Have you ever played with Tywin such that you think that his scummy ass posting is town this time? Because I think I've made the point that while he is scummy in general, he does do things that are town indicative and the one time I played with him was able to identify that he was town, pretty early actually, even through the generically scummy posting.

I never said or even intimated that he's a village idiot, and if he is scum *noted* that you discredited it as such. What I have said is that his lack of actual scum hunting and focus on lecturing and synopsis posting does look like scum.

Why do you think he's actually town???

Magna - My vote is where it is because I didn't do the traditional

unvote

when I replaced in. As for your bolded on Eddie - I understand why you would think that coming from your point of view, but as someone who has had some pretty bad emotional reactions to cases made on me by people I think are scum, I don't think it's necessarily scum indicative. It's not logical and it's not good play, but sometimes emotions don't make sense. I guess I would see it as scum if he thought in this player list playing up his emotions would get him town read, but I think he has to be aware it would be the opposite here so it's not a good scum strategy. All in all it's probably more personality dependent than alignment dependent.

Well, I probably deserve this, as I can't seem to get motivated and have very little energy for this game. Just seems like there's always something else I'd rather be doing.

I have never replaced out of a game ever, though, so I don't imagine I'm going to start now. Maybe I'll get a second wind. Game is so dense though, makes re-reading take so much longer.

Probably the only post of Axel's that I've been huh over.

And Ginnnnngie - You say that you have Lycan as town, but you also said that as scum he lets the game go by him even though he has plans for what to do. Does the fact that he hasn't posted for four days, even though he's been on site, sound anything like him just letting the game go by him or?

Gonna try to get my reads on fire bringer, kmd, and axel/rofl fleshed out a bit better tonight.

[Tammy]

Erm Lycan this narrative you're building with Chamber and Chamber v Pine is hilariously and completely wrong. And I don't think my looking at you and going huh wtf are you talking about is completely off base because I was following along during that time and reading Chamber so strongly town that the literal moment he replaced out I requested to be a replacement because i wanted this slot and now that I know my read was right I'm still like HUH?

Chamber's 129 was fine. He was trying to meta Eddie and get a read on him. Surely you've seen people ask for people to link games before. What was Chamber's 138 supposed to be oh obi wan of understanding Chamber?

He didn't get demotivated. If you'd actually been reading Chamber's posts and trying to get a read on him, you'd have seen 39 and 42 and considering he replaced out immediately after 166 how don't you, if you're actually trying to get a read on Chamber, wonder or figure if that's why Chamber replaced out? (My armchair position is that he replaced out because while he can be quite a bit condescending, what with the newbie/join date thing and how useless town hunting is, he really was that bothered by the old man alt and his previous post which was really kinda personally condescending and felt more along the lines of a personal attack and Chamber just literally didn't want to be a part of the game anymore. He could have been frustrated by Pine interrupting his pushes too I guess, and maybe we'll find out just what it was later, but I'd put a decent bet on it being Old Man.)

Also, you can pedal whatever you want, but read my damn posts instead of two of Chambers to pedal your narrative. Have you ever played with Chamber? Talked to Chamber? I get that I'm a replacement and have to deal with what people though of Chamber too, but you sticking on two posts and building a narrative that is so wrong while not looking at my posting at all isn't really you trying to figure out the game. It looks more like you picking something you thought you could build something on.

I liked Axel's 67 and if you've actually read my posts, I'm prreeeeeeety sure I've been in agreement with both he and Hito's take on that with Pine.

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, Kison, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390
(3) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(2) Pine - Axelrod, Lycanfire
(1) Eddie Cane - Tammy
(1) Old Man - Ginngie
(1) roflcopter - Eddie Cane

not voting:

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

[Tammy]

Insanity - Thanks. I found that game earlier. It's actually what reminded me of people who claim meta knowledge and an ability to read me but tunnel me when town. She didn't do that that game exactly but it was a pretty standard frustrating as hell feature of our games together for a while. I did do a skim of you in that game, you hadn't had a completed town game at the time, and this might be a weird kind of question but do you think there is a distinctive difference between your town and scum game? (I have not meta'd you, and that game was quite a long time ago, but humor me if you don't mind?)

UMMMMMMMMMMM pretending to be drunk scum tell? I'm in an alternate universe someone save me. I feel like I remember Thor using that tell years ago on town if I might add. BZZZZZZZZ Not an actual tell. If Ginngie's scum it's not because she's drunk right now.

On firebringer - What I was hoping to see from fire bringer's new style for this game was the posting style he had early game in the Thing as Fire Assassin? Anyway, fire bringer I think that posting style would serve you in this style game. (They remade fahrenheit 451! I didn't know that.) Okay so I don't know really how to read fire bringer with this new style because it doesn't feel like him, so tonally off sure but is it because he's scum or because he's affecting a new style? There are times, like when he's interacting with people, that he feels light and airy and town. I actually like his end of 131 when he says he's not going to claim or vote until the end of day or sheep his town soulmate, and I'm probably in the minority in liking the guessing game he's playing with Eddie over his town read on him. I like his scum read on Magna insofar as it's twigging on Magna sourcing out the read on him. (This is something that I want to look into Magna's games if I have the time and the inclination because I believe I have a memory of Magna working with people on reads, so if I am right I can put that point to rest.)

I don't think him voting people he thinks are town because he's sheeping a strong town read benefits him or is necessarily indicative of him being scum. It seems like the type of thing that he decided to do before this game started and would probably do alignment regardless maybe? My recollection of his scum game is doing showy trolly stuff as a blatant show, but this is from afar as an already dead scum mate in Kids TV show.

The only thing that has made me really wonder about him is 583 because I felt like it could be joining in on the general feeling offended in this game about points being made. And I'm really super sorry if you're really offended and I'm wondering if it could be fake, fire, but it felt a little off in that department.

All in all, I don't have an issue with the posts he's actually making and he's probably just a positive shade of null. I think I'd be able to get a better read there if he was in an atmosphere where his play style could flourish or he was making more posts that just sounded like him, or at least the him that I've seen before.

[Tammy]

Ginngie - In Nancy's game you read KMD as scum correctly. Is that the only game you played with him and what's your read there?

KMD - I'm chuckling right now because you lost a post in our last game together. Not that it means anything, it was just amusing. Though I guess there you did try to explain what was in the post and you didn't here, not sure if that means anything. I looked at our last game because I thought I remembered you getting kinda caught up on a minor point in which you tried to push that someone tried to play up being drunk and the more you explained that the scummier you looked about it.

Anyway I did like his first 192 because he acknowledges that he tried to get something but didn't but was gonna go back and try again but thought it was all going to be fencesitty/iioa. Yeah I know it's easy to point that out, but he's capable enough as scum to paint things as scum/town and look superficially townie while doing, so that just felt honest to me.

Oh there was a weak point made by axel that I wanted to point out earlier. Part of Axel's case on KMD was that he explained why he wasn't here, or something along those lines, which I don't think is as scum indicative as people make it out to be. I do get that people think it's scummy because I've been on the receiving end of it, but it's more personality dependent than anything. So that's not scummy.

Liked the cross out on the fire bringer read in 310. I realize it's a small thing, but it feels like he actually thought about that read and came back.

And my other half just woke up. Gonna hang out with him before I go to sleep. I will pick back up here on my KMD read through tomorrow.

[Tammy]

What content do you believe Lycanfire has added to this game?

Spoiler: Is there content behind door #1?

Spoiler: Is there content behind door #2?

Spoiler: Is there content behind door #3?

where i'm at: end of page 6

@Axel: Pine budding in with Chamber seems to be a re-occurring theme. What's your read on the Chamber slot?

@Eddie Cane: Have you called anybody dogshit yet?

@Moi: How do you feel about OM defining Eddie Cane as lynchbait and encouraging Petro to make something of themselves?

@Roflcopter: You wanted no business in OM or Eddie in 143. What about Axel interested you so much that you'd sit on the vote for +/- 80 posts?

@Tammy: I'd ask Chamber what the fuck he's doing for half of his posts. If you want to play get in the mind of your pred I'm game~

@Woofbringer: Did you ask Pine to marry you just to make Moi jealous?

People I'm hard tring~

Hito made a roundabout post 124 that "leads back to zero". It reads like Hito had a good point and decided to keep talking until he discredited himself, which is something that would come from town opposed to a scumbutt that gets off on having authority.

OM. The gambit is good. He's the most sociable player on the list so far interacting with everybody besides KMD and Cooldog, and I feel like he's pushing people in the right places./ I'm only seeing good intent from him so far.

People I'm hard sring~

Chamber dropped a shitpost in 129 and Pine made the very reasonable reply afterwards... in 130.

cough

sorry if I leave it like that my point will be lost on people

Pine interfered with Chamber's push on Eddie. Make your good points™ all you like, I'll probably roll my eyes onto my touchpad. What shooting it down immediately does is remove any utility his poorly intended question had. Why'd you break up the fight Pine? Chiarire.

VOTE: Pine

Here is what I am referring to

I think his is pretty much the textbook definition of talking poorly about the Geriatric community.

This was actually a jab at MU/kids these days saying MU have stronger towns. I got Mulch banned, praise me god damnit.

I wouldn’t say it is a fascination as much as the most recent game we were both in and I don’t remember what alignment you were. So I wanted to refresh my memory of how you played and see if you were Town there or not. For example I will need to see if you were this over-reactive in that game.

You referenced Spyro in Mini Normal 1890 to let everyone know just how shitty at town you think I was (something about "strapping myself to vifam somebody who intentionally harms their towngame to help their scumgame") and how my reads were shit. Something you talked yourself into in Mini Normal 1890 because you simply wanted that to be true. Let's not talk Spyro any more.

I make everyone jealous with my hot dog buns. If you know what I mean

I suppose what I meant to say is simultaneously scumreading Moi and calling him a friend right afterward read as inflammatory and I was hoping to see your read on him on the live thread.

Your read here in 469 is a lot like 169. Actually, both of you are very happy to attack each other on word choice alone. Tone is bunk unless there's a motive behind somebody speaking the way they have. If someone is scum, they naturally have intent to do harm. We are exactly +300 posts from then to live. Can you frame anything Moi has said as being simply morally wrong?

Whats been up with you Lycan? Seems people don't really like your slot so much.
What your thoughts on people scumreading it?

I have few ideas of who is scumreading my slot and even fewer ideas as for why. I'd guess it's a continuation of early game of Hitogorishi "associative with Josh/Pine" and OM's "independent read on 99 being some fenceshit"/Hito later agreeing with that. I think the entirety of 99 were not awful positions to have (I disliked PJ's early shade of the PGO claim simply because consensus is good, if you're going to break from consensus, break hard).

TL's Chamber read here led to his 105 which poked at Chamber to correct his behavior. I have the 103-105 exchange noted down as "103 chamber being factitious and borrowing charisma is rarely good spirited. first interaction with TL" and "105 TL anti-meta freak vs meta-freak. yeah, i'm not in tywin's head here unless he's trying to prompt some amazingly townie post out of chamber about why meta is a god and he is a shepard." Basically, TL got set off just like I did by 103 and baited Chamber into proving his worth instead of talking big. Considering how mechanical Chamber is, the lowkey shit stirring TL did here was actually well intentioned.

From what I read Chamber gave himself enough space to hit the gas at will, but broke down after his slapfight with OM making a series of nonsense posts that I'll detail after an important question.

Are you scumreading both Chamber and Pine? Where do you believe that Pine has interfered with Chamber's push?

Sure, I read it as S+S (128-130). Just looking at the call from TL onto Chamber and Chamber's immediate need to justify his work, only to be immediately shot down by Pine is suspect. We don't have the same Chamber with us after this exchange, in fact he will leave soon after.

>150 chamber says he isn't trying to get people to vote for eddie, while voting eddie. then why are you voting eddie?
>157 chamber hasn't properly metadived eddie... proceeds to explain how they have metadove eddie. comes to a conclusion that matches their vote, but refuses to be definite or like in 150, get people to vote eddie.

And smacked the brake pedal hard 12 hours after his post on Eddie and requested replacement.

breaking here to praise the best siege weapon, the trebuchet.

On Axelrod

I have lukewarm feelings about the slot because he scumread both Chamber and Pine. My question to him was a lead off to put how he rationalized the two slots alignments for when I made my next post. I didn't get a response.

I could see him as scum with somebody like insanity from interactions, but I don't like the reasoning:

so ask yourselves, what the hell is axel's vote doing on pine at this point? there has never been momentum against pine, axel has done little to nothing to build any momentum against pine, while there has in fact been momentum against the tywin slot and against kmd. the answer is that both tywin and kmd are mislynches waiting to happen, and pine is axel's scumbuddy who he has no interest in actually seeing lynched, he's just building that sweet sweet distance.

Roflcopter's 588 can be summed as "TL and Kmd are town, [he] did other things while keeping his vote on Pine".

My feelings on this amount to "if I can come up with much better reasons to suspect Axelrod, should I trust you're working in good faith?"

-Straight-up I didn't like him calling insanity a he while defending insanity.
-I feel like Axel performed mental gymnastics trying to suspect OM's reluctance to townread Chamber for making a second vote. Chamber committed the cardinal sin of following into the trash heap tell I got from Wickedestjr in Perpetual Mylo III. I don't see anything inconsistent in OM's refusal to townread a second vote.
-"Hating when townies lie" could be a slip, or may have been looking for a reason to vote Cooldog in the future. I'd say they wouldn't be partners, but nothing came of it.
-I disliked the amount of words he used to read OM as "null". He's said a lot about and to OM already at this point, and I'd expect him to further his read instead of hold his chin and slowly say "null".

What I like

-The early wagonomics of Eddie Cane is something I liked. This is what launched us out of RVS, and I think a scumpartner doesn't put attention on this wagon again.
-He liked Eddie's reasoning for voting Kmd. As being on Josh's team in Team Mafia I know how he strongly he feels when people act differently from how he expects (LLD) or exactly how he expects them to (Ranmaru). Basically, I don't think they're aligned, but despite playing a dangerous game by touching the jokewagon matter he's removing morale for a continued wagon.
-I like the pressure he put on Moi. The misrep was pretty easy to see, but the "do you know his main?" bit was a poke I really liked because things feel personal between OM-Moi.

Basically: the things he was doing from early game to now had positive effects.

Sure: his interactions with Insanity are some kinds of awful. Insanity encourages TL's suspicion of Axel|Chamber|PJ in her post 112, and in 115 Axel begins to go hard on Chamber. Later, Insanity scrutinizes Axel in 113 which Hitogorishi points out in 124 saying the shade going Axel's way is best combined with a vote.

Roflcopter

With the above in mind, do you think it's as simple as a team of {Axel, Insanity, OM, Pine}? Can you give a more up to date read on OM?

Neddie

You said Axel and Insanity are both town. How'd you get there? You continually rate Insanity high in your readslists but all I see are pings in 156. Show me the way!

Moi

I'll give you a spicy take on Kmd when I catch up. Can you tell me your opinion on Axel's 117?

Pine

This is still the best vote today or what I would say if he didn't replace out. I never received an explanation on why he interfered with Chamber, and he definitely could have explained his push rather than ask Moi who he should vote.

Insanity

Why does it trouble you that I find 129+130 to be a S+S interaction? Yes, it's true that scum have no reason to stop a buddy's push, but the sheer fact of the matter is that Chamber left himself wide open with, IMO, an awful post 129 and Pine called him out way too early. I need to justify that somehow. If it were SvT, doesn't Pine run the risk of getting called by Chamber himself? This didn't happen- Chamber's rebuttal, 138 is

remarkably tame

. He had a chance of going with my approach, "why do you deny the utility of the responses I'd get to this/why are you interfering at all". Instead he drops him as a townread and projects that Pine is a

better player than he lets on

.

I despise demands like that. The burden of proof for meta demands is on the accuser.

1: this post is awful. You are no longer top town read (see, no credence).

2: You assume this is some backhanded attack against him. He has a better knowledge of his history than I do, if he can provide the counter example why wouldn't I want to see it?

Chamber then ran a slow churn of demotivation until he replaced out. That's indicative of somebody that wanted to play the game and had a teammate dick around to score lylo points.

Tammy

What are your thoughts on 67?

After strenuous use of clicking the ISO button, I could not for the life of me find one instance of Lycan doing literally anything this game.

What a damn shame

If you’re town, please stop posting like this. I get that posturing is your playstyle sometimes but it’s extremely hard to read because it’s just scummy and annoying as shit especially when I know you have the capability to actually just play.

You know damn well what she was asking.

But to expand on that why is Lycan making a couple posts with content enough to make him solid town but almost everyone else with content you’re just mixed about?

Also also why didn’t you answer my question about why you weren’t interacting with Eddie cane?

[Tammy]

Also I’m not going to do the kmd iso I was in the middle of. I am going to make my way through rofl and axel and look at that case, but one of the many reasons I took a break from mafia was that mafia was becoming more of a chore and an obligation rather than a fun hobby and a puzzle for me to figure out and I was putting too much pressure on myself to be really town looking and get everything right. I can’t change the way people treat each other, nor can I change people being so anti-town it makes it harder to win, but I can change my approach.

My reads suck day one, I’m not going to be able to force myself to have better reads and isoing isn’t going to help that at all. All it will do is make me annoyed with this game which won’t help any of us. I need to figure out a way to be lower volume/obligation but still be effective.

So I’m just going to break this up into who I am willing and am not willing to vote for today,

I know I’m not willing to vote: magna, CooLDoG, old man, Eddie cane, Hito, fire, pine, and probably not kmd or insanity or Kison.

These are not all town reads, some are just people who I’ve liked a post or direction or tone of theirs that I just think they’re not a good day one lynch. (Pine is here because day one pinecone pass)

Left rofl and axel out cuz I want to look at the case there. I still think axel for the most part seems fine and just like he has when we’ve played together; I don’t think I’ve seen him as scum, but. I’ve liked his lightheartedness in general, but I was surprised by the meta backup of me when he’s pretty solidly anti-meta and one of his last posts that felt a little defeated? that’s not really the right word, but overall he seems fine, but I will look at that case.

[Tammy]

UNVOTE:

[Tammy]

Axelrod - have you not been scum in two years? Am I missing something? Will you tell me your last one?

In other news, he still seems fine. I don’t see the corps-dis you guys are over the vote. It looks like he’s wondering why kmd kept his vote on an rvs wagon that got big rather than getting after someone for leaving their vote there. I don’t think wondering why someone left their vote on an rvs wagon is cogdus because he still has his vote on pine, who he’s stated is his biggest suspect. It doesn’t feel weird that he didn’t move it while also having other suspects because you only have one vote. (And if anything if axel was scum, him casing kmd but still voting pine would actually make me think kmd partner instead of line partner, because I recently caught scum doing that - casing their partner and punting away from voting that wagon). I don’t agree with the championing the Eddie wagon conclusion either.

So eh, meh. If he tells me where to look, I’ll look through his scum game to see if there’s a difference in style between alignments, but he seems fine.

[Tammy]

Erm Ginngie can you talk about what specifically you like about Lycanfire? Because I just skimmed, very briefly, two of his scum games - DBZ and Darkest Dungeon mafia, and while I did not do a proper actual meta dive, he doesn't look like he's unable to give content when scum. I was expecting to see a Creature type situation based on what you said, and I'm not, so what gives?

[Tammy]

(This is something that I want to look into Magna's games if I have the time and the inclination because I believe I have a memory of Magna working with people on reads, so if I am right I can put that point to rest.)

Ummm this is pretty awkward Tammy since Near Vanilla is a game and combined with Kids TV Characters Mafia why I feel pretty confident about being able to read your alignment.

Getting ready for bed, so I'll respond to whatever else tomorrow, but real quick. Maybe I wasn't clear what I was referring to. Fire bringer claims the reason you are scum is because you don't work with people or outsource reads. I believe that's wrong because I have a memory of you working with people for reads, but it's not a memory I can readily recall for verification purposes. I can't put the point to rest and say hey fire bringer you're wrong on that point when all I have is a vague memory.

Bed time.

[Tammy]

Whoops the above post was my response to Magna from his 701.

Fixed - Korts.

[Tammy]

Tammy, you’re involved enough to where you should be confident in putting a vote down, i don’t want to see anything non-committal

[Tammy]

Was starting to catch up earlier but got called away, so it’ll have to wait until tomorrow.

I have no interest in an axel lynch though!

[Tammy]

Bleh so I need to get my shit together and get caught up. Shooting for that tonight.

But I did just distract myself doing a little magna digging. Mostly because I wanted to satisfy myself that firebringer was just wrong on the idea that magna doesn’t outsource/take into account others reads and because while I have liked a bunch of magna’s play that *thing* that used to let me know he was town without a doubt hasn’t really shown up. The lack of it doesn’t mean scum; it’s just the presence of it made me near 100% certain he was town. I thoight I remembered him working with me and nacho on reads in near vanilla and he did. (That thing was also there in that game), but well that was a long time ago and things and people change. I looked at thaw that recently ended, and he did work with greyice on reads and at one point called him to help with parsing a situation he thought was scummy but was having trouble deciphering. (He also told Cheetory6 that the chapter was done on a certain type of moi play, and that thing didn’t really appear in the posts I read of that game so I might need to recalibrate my expectations and learn some new markers that help with certainty.)

I’m there with Hito too in that I thought if he were town that would be a read I’d be damn near certain on, but my in game experience is limited to Forest fire I think where he replaced in after a scum lynch and I was impressed by his insight. My expectations beyond that are reading games I was t in and reputation. My expectations might be unfair, but I thoight this was a read I’d see so clearly.

Anywho just a couple things I’ve been pondering.

I didn’t really understand most of Lycan’s post but I kind of liked the rants nature of it.

Old man - I didn’t vote Lycan/haven’t voted Lycan because I don’t know where I want my vote. I won’t vote until I figure that out. I’m not at all convinced that Lycan is scum even if his slot has been the closest I have to a scum read.

I’m trying to make sense of the ones who scumread axel yet town read Tywin. Something doesn’t feel right there and I can’t put my finger on it. Rofl’s case on axel and hito’s Reasoning on Tywin feel similarish in nature. Not the same, mind you, but similar. So that has me kind of hrm. I don’t agree with rofl’s interpretation of axel’s behavior and after he totally got wrong my posts about Tywin, I’m not inclined to accept his interpretation.

Some posts back insanity linked to a previous geriatric game with scum flaking out and said Tywin felt similar. (I think it was insanity, sorry if wrong). Anyway that post pinged me, and I’ve been trying to figure out why. I’ve certainly been in her shoes before where I’ve gotten paranoid of a scum replace out. But I think it boils down to this. If you look at the sequence of posts from 248-255, it doesn’t look like scum gonna flake. In fact, if scum goons flake he could have right there. The second post is over an hour after his first post, which makes it look like he is being truthful that he’d just spent an hour on catching up. When he says oh nvm didn’t see this, guess I’ll go, he could have gone and not looked back, but he’s back a few hours later and posting. Then a few days later, he sire flakes. His last log in date is may 5th. (Hope he’s okay by the way). If he was going to scum flake he could have done it when he was almost first replaced, so I don’t think his site flake is a scum flake. It’s probably not alignment indicative at all, and I think why the link to the last game pinged was because it tries to add to the Tywin scum case that he also scum flaked.

I need to reread lycans recent posts when I’m not at a phone, and I’m getting ready to go to a dinner date so that will have to wait, but one thing I liked from him was his reasoning for his Hito town read in his first content post. I was hoping to see other reads like that because that read felt like he was really trying to ascertain hito’s Alignment.

So those are some small things that have had me feeling reservations on Lycan being scum and I’ve been holding onto. It’s not enough to push me to town, but that’s where I’m at there.

Magna - Eddie already responded about the emotional reaction thing and said pretty much exactly what I was going to say.

Okay I was hoping to get further but I need to get ready for dinner so ciao ciao.

[Tammy]

I hope you have a wonderful vacation Magna! I love traveling!

That was me for the link to the other geriatric, but I didn't link it to Tywin! That was 391 in relation to Morality flaking out without posting anything substantial which reminded me of the scum player(s) in that game.

Oh! Well then never mind there! (Also though morality didn't flake/replace from this game. He didn't post anything here or site wide when he was prodded, was replaced for not responding to prod, came back but had already been replaced.)

~~~~~

Something occurred to me about Pine though. I'm wondering if he'd actually be doing better here as scum than as town. Axel's right that he is coasting. And my point that he's mostly been sideline sniping is something that's sticking in my head, but and this thought here is coming from his statement that he's better as scum and my *understanding* that he prefers scum to town. (I could be completely wrong on that and if so then this line of thought is probably completely wrong, but bear with me.) Now when people who prefer/are better at scum are under a lot of real life stress, they tend to find playing a scum game easier to do than playing town. Giving reads and looking like you're scum hunting superficially is just easier. Heck it's easier for me sometimes and I strongly strongly prefer town to scum - though why is something that barely anyone understands.

So I'm thinking that maybe as someone who prefers or thinks he's better as scum would be using this game to blow off steam, have some fun controlling the direction of the game, etc. I also kind of think that his appeal to people concerning pinecone and request to give a day reprieve might be a little below him as scum. Granted real life happens no matter what your alignment is; I've been there, but when scum I always feel especially testy about getting slack for it, and I don't even come close to identifying as lawful

The amount of times I've cleared scum players for reasoning like this is pretty high, so it's not something I'm completely sold on, but I'm just like yeah he might actually be having more fun here if he were scum.

Also, I'm wondering if that also means something for Axel's alignment because I was looking at his iso in musical mafia where he was scum. (HEY I was in that game and you guys inadvertently killed me night one!) But anyway his reaction to Pine today is pretty dickish, Ginngie's right there, if he's scum here. There someone he was trying to push a scum read on said that he needed some time from the game because something was going on in his life and Axel's response was to unvote and be very reasonable and say that real life was more important that mafia. Here he seems irritated. Like here if he's scum and Pine's town, he knows that Pine is dealing with having a baby and he knows Pine's actually struggling right now. While if town, he might behave a little irrationally about the situation and get frustrated at someone, who he thinks is scum, is getting a pass. So I understand that reaction much more if Axel's town here.

I need an anchor this game. It's a super rare game that I'm this far in and my reads are "most people look fine" but you know what I have no actual strong reads at all and wouldn't be surprised if any one of you flipped scum. Or town. Because most people just seem okay. Even the people I like and that I think are town, I'd not be surprised at all if they flipped scum.

[Tammy]

GGGGINNNNNNNGGGGGGGIIIIIEEEEEEEE -

Can you talk to me about your scum reads? I know you're voting Axel, why though?

Why was Kison one of your first, immediate town reads?

[Tammy]

Sooooo I've read Lycan's post three times now and I still can't really follow half of what he's saying or where all this is leading. I guess he's going for interactional analysis which is okay, but I don't have a key card to decipher and I'm lost. I've been trying to parse who he's scum reading there and I'm uh just don't know well besides Pine and Magna?

Anyway on interactional issues the reason why I was a bit squicked at gingie for not interacting with Eddie when she has his name in her signature was I thought they were friends, and the main reason I knew Gin was scum when she replaced into For Us was that she felt like she was a deer caught in the headlights in a game with Mastina and Nacho who were both town. I think I told Nacho that she felt like she was trying to figure out how to navigate a mine field and I wondered if she were experiencing a similar type of situation. Which in that case the relative ignoring of Eddie would really mean something.

In that vein, Lycan and Eddie should be interacting more or something I think.

[Tammy]

Hey Lycan - How do you feel about the fact that Eddie is voting you?

Vote Count

(5) Lycanfire - hitogoroshi, insanity018, Old Man, Kmd4390, Eddie Cane
(4) Axelrod - roflcopter, ManaofIllusion, Pine, Kison
(2) hitogoroshi - CooLDoG, Firebringer
(1) MagnaofIllusion - Lycanfire

not voting:

Tammy, Axelrod, Ginngie

8 to lynch

Deadline is 6 PM EST on Monday the 28th of May.

I repeat. Deadline is in

2 days.

[Tammy]

In the realm of dumb annoying tells, I actually think posting spreadsheet notes is scummy, but the last time someone did it he was town and I spent a good portion of the day pinged about it.

[Tammy]

FYREBRINGER - Why are you fixated on interacting with Magna? If he annoys you so and you think he's scum, why bother? Why not focus on people you enjoy this game? Because it kinda feels like you're using whatever personal animosity you have as an excuse to not play and it's making me feel very squicky with you.

Can you please please play?

[Tammy]

I was gonna suggest a cfd on KMD, but then I read his iso ...


... and it seemed FINE


just like everybody else

Insanity might be scum. It's that calm calm style...soothing you into an endless night of doom. I'm gonna sleep on it.

[Tammy]

Oh I forgot, you know it's a pretty weak reason to give someone a town read because they claim to disbelieve an IC claim, right? Like as scum it's so easy to act paranoid about an IC claim that's future to come, and if you're on a scum team with the IC fake claimer proper play is to lay some ground work for that day two claim you know isn't going to be coming.

[Tammy]

Oh Magna if you do look back at Clash of Kings, you should also look at Musical Mafia where Axel was scum and the more recent Kuribo in Wonderland where he was town. I thought Axel is playing a bit differently than Clash, a little more closer to Kuribo and not really similar to Musical.

All in all, in the middle and FINE

[Tammy]

Except it's not even meticulous. Granted Pine to Hito there's only a couple mentions in the first 299 posts, but Hito to Pine is quite a lot. So it makes even less sense.

Okay going to sleep now.

[Tammy]

@Tammy

- Thanks for the vacation wishes. I hope to enjoy. Here's the thing - I greatly appreciate that you are giving me feedback but I've reached the point where I can't really go anywhere with it. You are basically giving me "I think they aren't scum" to all my suspects and the only person you seem close to pushing is Lycan which I've already said I think is a Town slot. And while you seem comfortable having an idle vote I don't. Sorry I can't be the anchor you need to get oriented this game apparently.

Yeah, I know sorry. The anchor thing is a me issue; it's about a lack of confidence in my reads. It's just something that's been plaguing me in the couple games I played since taking a break. Played a game at my homesite with Regfan, who I normally can read pretty well and who was really obviously town in retrospect, but I spent the first two days of the game squinting at him. I think it probably has something to do with me adjusting the amount of time and emotional energy I'm putting into a game, and I've just got to figure out how to make it work.

I am listening to your suspicions, and I'm coming around on fire bringer as I'm concerned that his focus on the animosity? between you to is something that he can focus on, and that's bugging me.

I could easily see Inanity as scum. Her overall posting is generally fine and while she's fine tonally, it's not alignment indicative.

Something weird is going on between Lycan and Eddie.

The only thing that really is making me concerned about Axel flipping scum is the way other people in the game are treating him/this wagon. Axel himself just reads completely fine for me. This is something I need to flesh out a bit more in my mind.

Regarding your next post and wonder if I got over my hatred for scum and posting. I still hate playing scum as much as I ever did, but there was a time that I got passable at it and could post with frequency. Then a couple years ago I drew scum a lot and pretty much spent the year in scum role after scum role on every site I've played on. And my hatred for it skyrocketed again; I don't know what my posting frequency will look like when I draw scum again.

[Tammy]

Insanity - Are you still suspicious of KMD?

[Tammy]

I think I’m good. I think I’m fine. I don’t think I have any doubts anymore.

Eddie - you called Lycan your friend and said he probably replaced in to play with you, so I thoight you had more experience. My bad.

[Tammy]

What about kmd, you wrote a case on him earlier?

[Tammy]

heh I'm actually doing the same thing. I'm at the top of 19, so just about halfway, and I need to attend to real life for a bit, so I need to stop for now. I'm hoping to finish it today, but it could be tomorrow.

I'm not in-depth reading, as I don't have the time for that right now, but reading people's isos is just making me more lost feeling in my reads.

I'm also not reading Old Man's or Cooldog's posts or posts directed to either of them for a few reasons.

So this is roughly where I'm at at this point in the read through (I'm going to attempt an approximation of a reads list, which usually makes things worse for me but might help here?):

Town to varying degrees: Ginngie/PJ, Hito, Magna, rofl {Old Man, Cooldog}

Null but leaning positive: Firebringer, Eddie Cane, Axelrod, Pine, Kison

Could be scum: KMD, Lycan/Tywin, Insanity

That's too many people that I feel positive about I know, but I'm going to stop worrying about having everything correct today when my day one reads are often quite lackluster.

Like Hito and Magna for the same reasons I did before; I'm just gonna stop stressing about these two today because whether or not I'm right literally doesn't matter when I'm never voting them today and they're not getting lynched. The only thing that really makes a difference here is how much to take their reads into account to balance out mine, but I'll just have to not worry about that today either.

PJ's posts and questions looked better the second time around; I found them rather null the first time.

I liked rofl's posts about people town reading him but null reading Kison and getting the heebie jeebies about getting written off as town by most.

I still like fire bringer's beginning of the game posts for the same reason as I did before. Tonally feels a bit wrong except when he's playing the guessing game with Eddie, and I think the sheeping Eddie isn't really alignment indicative for fire bringer so I don't find it scummy like others do. The tonal thing could be the working out the play style for this game, so not going to worry about that part much today.

Eddie should really probably be a bit higher actually, I mostly just put him in positive null for myself because he's the type of player I sometimes feel a bit mindmeldy play style wise and like tonally and write off as town and then day three rolls around and I realize I've overlooked scum. So I want to make sure I don't do that anymore. (I want to look back on his Tywin/Lycan progression though.)

Pine's play looks pretty scummy for the reasons I've said before, but there was that little moment of aha I had yesterday that I do think points more to town. Not enough to say he's town from it because I don't want to call someone town based on a faulty assumption of someone's personality.

Kison was the one who used Tywin's replace out to supplement his already scum read. I didn't realize that the first time around, so meh. Tonally I've liked some of his posts, but I forget he's in the game a lot.

Axel is moved down a bit, probably in part from all the scum reads and I don't really like the KMD case even though I think that KMD has a decent chance for being scum. The case just felt weak in nature, but it also felt like he had more reasoning for KMD being scum and it felt like that's where his vote should have been. I think rofl is wrong that if he's scum he's leaving his vote on Pine for partner distancing; I think there's more of a chance of it being KMD as a partner and that being the attempt at distancing. I still don't see the scum reads there though.

Still don't like any of Tywin's posts.

Only three things I liked about KMD was the post where he said he didn't have a read on fire bringer and crossed it out and said town for now, wondering if Insanity questioning a town read on her was a town tell for her, and thinking he had a meta tell on me. I'm lukewarm about the first big content analysis post, felt a bit like busy work. I think Magna had a point about KMD kind of side stepping the Eddie question. I don't think a really big explanation was necessary at that point for an rvs wagon based on not very serious reasoning. I'd feel even better about the meta tell if he followed through on it. Several people have played with me in this game, so if he had the tell he could point it out or ask if it was something.

I didn't like Insanity's points on KMD either, the one about him not skimming ahead to see what's happened and catching up from where he was. That felt like a weak point to point out and could be a bit distancing. I did notice that he's not in her reads later, so that just read somewhat off. And the part where she missed context due to iso reading does read off to me. I know some people do do this as town, but I know scum players who focus on isos rather than thread catchup and so that pinged. I think here I just haven't seen anything that I think can't come from scum and nothing that I've been like hey this is just townie rather than this is scum!

[Tammy]

So I like insanity's last post. It had a nice bit of fire and oomph.

Also like Axel's posts. (Also, Axel, I so identify with the concept of feeling actively bad when wrongly accusing someone!)

So Ladies and Gents of Normal 212,

I invite you to pick up your canes

and help me cfd

VOTE: KMD

[Tammy]

Hey Lycan - In the white flag team mafia game, this was one of your earliest posts:

Subject: Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

llamarble is quite the confident player. Already isssued a warning about being NK'd if he's sorted. Not a fan of players talking about they'll get NK'd this early in the game.

This is the entire point behind Llamarble's play. This is a problem I see too often: players want certain other players to flip a certain way, so they stick with their first gut instinct instead of fully absorbing what other people are doing. This amounts to feely bullshit.

and in this thread on when townies should or shouldn't reevaluate you said "I'm firmly in the always re-evaluate camp, but I recognize that I need to pull the trigger and put my scumreads out."

But here you said:

Here's a hint to not being horseshit town: when you see something scummy, you don't keep reading and trying to sort the person. You put noose around their neck because they legitimately have to die. The more information you have, the more likely you are to gain a shit read. I can give numerous examples of how I picked a player out early game doing scummy things as scum and tunnel them. Even worse is getting talked out of it. Do I tunnel towns too? Not nearly as often. Towns town up, scums are scum.

can you explain this? Because I'm really trying to understand you and your play and some of the theories you've presented are kinda whackadoo and I'm trying to figure out if this is irrational town that thinks they saw something early or bullshitting scum trying to hold on to some narrative they think they can build.

[Tammy]

Tammy: If you haven't liked Tywin's posts at all, and least liked a few of KMDs posts, why start the new KMD wagon vs voting Lycan?

While I didn't like any posts of Tywin's, I did like some things from Lycan. One thing in particular I liked was when he was pushing a chamber scum read and called it a trash heap and linked back to another game he played where he correctly identified Wicked by calling it a trash heap. Knowing that he's just wrong on chamber, makes that a kind of bold move that feels a little like puffed up town.

I was also a bit skeeved by the way you made him saying more information was bad while making a spreadsheet. It felt like forcing a contradiction that wasn't really there.

[Tammy]

I'm trying to figure out if him claiming VT means he's actually town.

[Tammy]

Two scum games I found he tends to claim doctor, but one he claimed vt during a massclaim, so IDK.

pedit: Never mind.

[Tammy]

I'd have preferred that not happening right then, but I should have unvoted.

[Tammy]

People should not town read rofl for saying what proper protown behavior is, or getting after cooldog for claiming pgo, or being paranoid about Old Man not really being an ic.

I just looked back at NY 157 where we were scum together, and his play there does similar types behavior. You can look for yourself to see if it's similar to you, but if that's the crux of the town read, that's something that's very easy to do.

I still do like the early things I pointed out early game, but I still think Axel is probably town and if he thought I was using too many words to justify my Axel town read he shouldn't have me as a town read, and I didn't like his interpretation of my Tywin points. Probably only couple things that pinged me though.

I don't think that Axel spending a lot of time defending himself means he's scum. Someone made a case against him and he was getting run up, so many people defend themselves in those situations because what the heck else are you supposed to do? People get mislynched quite often because they defend themselves too much.

Eddie - I've never played with Kison before nor do I think I've ever read a game with him in it, so I don't have any meta knowledge of him.

[Tammy]

I wish I was at a farm with puppies and kittens and not somewhere with an unbearable heatwave!

And yeah I think that's a thing that fire bringer would do as town just to end the day. I do know, or at least think I do, that he gets frustrated? with long day ones and will hammer anything. Which makes it non alignment indicative and why people like reck and spyrex get away with doing it when scum too.

[Tammy]

Tammy (still don't think Tammy is scum but it's also true KMD wagon was more or less entirely birthed by Tammy not wanting Lycan).

There you go. I was a little weirded out that you left me off the first one. I'm quite a bit surprised at how fast that wagon went. I was expecting to still have to make a decision between Axel and Lycan today - Axel I did not want, and yeah Lycan I was getting cold feet on.

[Tammy]

There you go. I was a little weirded out that you left me off the first one. I'm quite a bit surprised at how fast that wagon went. I was expecting to still have to make a decision between Axel and Lycan today - Axel I did not want, and yeah Lycan I was getting cold feet on.

The first one was just the folks who actually voted the lycan wagon with me but then hopped. (iirc you gave lots of verbal support but never got on?) I mean, I don't agree with your cold feet just because I think the iso 13/15 misalignment is a strong point and don't agree that it's forcing a contradiction - esp. since you found another post that makes ISO 13 seem out of place - but the defecting voters is for me the biggest thing to eyebrow at for KMD town, Lycan scum.

Tammy play hypo reads on KMD flip with me I don't know what Tammy's ghost would want if you greenflip tonight

I don't do very well with hypo reads, but if KMD flips town then besides I suck, insanity moving over that quickly could be a thing. Lycan should be pushed regardless tomorrow and I want him to address what I asked today regardless because I think that's a theory point that doesn't make sense. In the post that I linked he said something about how he bullshits when scum while when town he doesn't have to, and he feels like he's bullshitting a bit of the time here. I don't quite like very much the vote that came on kmd after he claimed vt. The postscript on it from Magna felt off but I also think that's a thing from him? Some of rofl's play feels off especially if Lycan flips scum and his interpretation on Axel doesn't feel right. I still think Axel is town. Starting to doubt the Old Man IC claim just because if KMD flips town then I have too many town reads or positive feelings, and either scum's playing really well or he's lying about that, but that's a tomorrow issue so not worth anything really. Cool dog's reads are for really superficial things but that could just be cool dog. Think your twilight posting sounds good especially if Lycan is scum.

[Tammy]

If KMD is scum then IDK, Lycan could still be scum. I'd have to look back to when KMD voted him to see if it looked like a bus. Theoretically then Axel and/or insanity could also be scum because one of the things that had me wondering about KMD was that the two of them both had some early suspicion that felt kinda easy and looking like they were looking like they suspected him but didn't want to commit to it. So I wondered about a partnership there with some early distancing but not wanting to do anything about it. KMD could have jumped onto Lycan to detract from voting on Axel then. Which would mean his vt claim was potentially because he was claiming to save a power role partner from being lynched.

[Tammy]

(iirc you gave lots of verbal support but never got on?)

And yes, this is correct.

[Tammy]

None of the posts from the other game showed up.

I feel like I should respond since it’s about me, but it would be a big self-meta wall and I’m feeling lazy and want to go to sleep. I don’t think anyone would accuse me of being very confident in general though; maybe I fake it well sometimes!

You are correct that I hate being scum and it stresses me out, but I think you’re going wrong on how that gets expressed. Most people don’t know why it stresses me out, so they end up thinking various things.

[Tammy]

So I am not prophetic! I had a dream last night that Eddie Cane died last night, but only because he was one of two of us who passed the basic math skills exam. Not because the rest of us didn't know math, because we all got our math questions correct, but we didn't follow the directions properly. Only Eddie and one other person did, I don't know who, but mafia killed Eddie because he follows directions...and knows math apparently.

[Tammy]

Tammy starts the flash-wagon @ 869.

Looking back, she's commented a number of times that she doesn't see the case against me, and that I read fine to her. KMD and Tywin are both on her radar. So there's an interesting question here of why vote KMD right there, as opposed to throwing support behind the wagon that already had votes. I can think of a number of possible answers to this, but I'd be curious to hear Tammy's particular ones. I'll say I don't find it scummy on it's face though.

It's kind of the same "if Lycan is Town, the scum don't really care" situation, where there's simply no reason for a scum-Tammy to go and try and start up something completely new on another player. Rather, she would be

perfectly

able to hem and haw and lament about these crap choices she was being given, but had no choice but to pick one due to deadline, and etc. etc. No real reason for her to try and start a new wagon. Lycan-scum is

slightly

more likely for her to have tried something like this, given she has been expressing support for me, and probably wouldn't want to have to reverse herself and vote me, but given the deadline situation, I just don't think scum-Tammy would have been feeling the pinch or need to do something like that.

So, I was feeling it before, but this solidifies it more, than Tammy is just very likely Town.

Ginngie, you are a woman after my own heart! It is super exciting to read a post all about you!

My answer to your question is that I didn't really like the case against you and thought you were probably town. I also started getting cold feet on thinking that Lycan was scum. He'd made a couple posts that made me think maybe town? Some people I thought were likely town thought he was town, though Hito was one that squarely thought he was scum.

I almost started a wagon on insanity because i thought she might be scum, largely in part because she feels rather wooden, but her last post had some spark that had me doubting. So I started a wagon on KMD because that was my other question mark. I didn't expect it to actually go through like that and kinda started it to see what would happen. Both you and insanity had made earlier cases/arguments against KMD that didn't go anywhere and I found that puzzling. And I thought that the kind of things you guys brought up sounded similar to partnerish things brought up for distancing purposes but not designed to really push with. I thought that if KMD was either or you guys' partner and Lycan was town, the reaction to the wagon starting up at deadline for really no reason at all might tell me something or help to reason out that feeling I had.

But it didn't. That was wrong and by the time I came back he'd claimed and been brought to L1.

[Tammy]

Firebringer - I know you can be more involved than you have been this game. Please get in here and do something if you're town.

[Tammy]

can you explain this? Because I'm really trying to understand you and your play and some of the theories you've presented are kinda whackadoo and I'm trying to figure out if this is irrational town that thinks they saw something early or bullshitting scum trying to hold on to some narrative they think they can build.

That first quote was taken out of context in that game. My

gut reaction

("feely bullshit") was that Llamarble was scummy, because he was being egotistical. Rather than let that feeling form my final opinion on him I kept thinking about his post and realized that it stunk so badly that it was scum bait. Cogito Ergo Scum voted him shortly after and at that point I was pretty sure I found scum, but it was early game (page 3?) so I made a nonsense vote with a nearly broken vote tag to point to later as "yeah by the way I found scum but wanted you all to keep talking so we didn't speedlynch scum and ruin day 1". The town didn't really get it, because they all thought they drew scum PMs. See this post if you actually care ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

As for what I meant in this game: scums can town up if they have no pressure on them. Reading how they interact with others might be helpful post-flip, but all it does is make you wonder if that post comes from town. You have to focus on the posts that come from scum, and push them on that, get feedback, and work from there.

I would probably still be pushing you if not for that hand wavy post Pine made to you in 429. The whole point about Pine's "cogdis" is pretty weak considering the entire playerlist wants to dump on OM. Seemingly it's Pine that doesn't seem to give a shit about you as a person which was different to how he was talking Chamber into not replacing out. Now there's some dissonance I can get behind.

--

Don't really like how everyone is poeing insanity while kmd got lynched IMO.

That was Marble being marble. You probably found CES scum for the wrong reasons too if you think he voted marble because he was scum baited by marble being egotistical. CES would push and vote marble at the beginning of a game regardless of alignment because that's their history together. (I'm not trying to take away you catching scum there because you were right, but you are missing history.)

But I don't really think I took anything out of context? You thought marble was scum at first as a gut reaction but then thought about it and realized he could be town due to X. Which means you didn't go with your first thought, you considered the motivations of what marble might be doing and looked into it, which is different from what you said here and where I'm going huh because there re-evaluation, here you say more information is bad for reads. How does that not align with your other statement I quoted about you bullshitting as scum while as town there is no need to?

The belief in reevaluation/lack of belief in reevaluation is what I'm trying to figure out.

I don't understand why Pine not giving a shit about me as a person means that we're not partnered? And this is something I was thinking about overnight because your original stance on our slots being partnered and taking each other to lylo and then chamber just being so disheartened that Pine got after him about the Eddie meta question doesn't make sense to me. Chamber had offered up some pretty choice barbs to Pine - you've got not only the join date one but the town hunting thing - so why would chamber become so down that Pine sniped back to him about his meta request on Eddie get him to fizzle further and further until he replaced out mean they were partners? Even if you don't believe it now because of something Pine said to me, I don't understand your thought process there.

why do you think that insanity is town?

[Tammy]

[q
There you go. I was a little weirded out that you left me off the first one. I'm quite a bit surprised at how fast that wagon went. I was expecting to still have to make a decision between Axel and Lycan today - Axel I did not want, and yeah Lycan I was getting cold feet on.

thoughts on Lycan now?
[/quote]

I don't know. I don't do well reading players like Lycan without experience with them specifically and metaing games I'm not in doesn't help. He does not look like the town games I skimmed through, there he felt clear for the most part and I could understand him though the knowledge of his alignment does impact that. But he also doesn't look like his scum games either, so he's a medium crossing where I'm not sure and I'm pretty much looking to you guys' interaction to help me with that, and hopefully by the end of today that will be made clearer.

[Tammy]

I'm kinda squicked that there's not a Old Man is town post at the start of day two. If I were in his position and there were so many questions, I'd have requested that to be stated immediately. The fact that there's not is concerning.

Probably means that he's a #liarbigfatliar and I'm out of fucks given trying to determine whether or not it's scum or town fake claiming and will lynch that shit no looking back.

I'd like to see:

Fireberinger do shit today besides be disgruntled that Magna finds his play objectionable...there are more people playing than him.

cooldog do more than his mostly superficial bullshit reading

pine do more than sideline sniping

Axel still reads fine to me.

[Tammy]

EDDIE - Can you talk about why Lycan is scum?

[Tammy]

thank you But I was referencing Lycan saying a post you made to me meant you didn't give a shit about me as a person meaning we weren't aligned.

[Tammy]

Firebringer - I know you can be more involved than you have been this game. Please get in here and do something if you're town.

Yeah I could be, so what.
I am sitting here puzzled that hito was killed.

Like scum decided to just kill mislynch bait for no reason

My reads are probably mostly trash here.
I am going to rethink this game on weekend, work sucks with month end

Am I the only person who wasn't shocked at the Hito kill?
Like in my list of, if town these people are likely dying tonight, Hito was one of the most likely.

Though I wonder if that could help differentiate the scum team.

But yeah, if you're town get in here because I want to be able to read you.

I don't care if you don't wall; I'm not asking you to change who you are. Come in here and spitball for ten posts a day, and I don't care. I just want you involved in a way I can read.

(I mean get your month's end work done and all but then be readable please? Also, can i say that I find it amusing that you and Magna find each other just baseline objectionable when you're in the same line of work? I don't know why it's amusing, it just is.)

[Tammy]

I am quite drunk at the moment so sorry if I don't make sense, but I saw this claim/counter claim not really counter claim earlier and I've thought about the possibilities.

If Lycan is telling the truth, then you know what I'm pretty super happy I hipshot to KMD and people jumped on for some reason because I'd have probably picked Lycan over Axel. No that it really matters worth a shit because even night, but still. But one thing I do have to wonder is that Lycan was in serious fucking contention for being lynched yesterday, and I'll have to look but I don't remember anything in the way of you guys shouldn't lynch me I'm a fucking cop at all, so that's playing into my is this for real meter atm.

Lycan scum can't claim vig right now because hi only one kill

so Eddie - What do you think? Is he really the cop?

and I hate I HATE that I said I wasn't going to care about fake claiming possible townies and here I am debating old man's claim. It's pretty much one of the few reasons I'd accept a fake claim at this point. But still like he claimed under barely any pressure, which is hypocritical of me to criticize because i'm a notorious early claimer, but he had an actual reason which makes the jumpy preclaim a bit less eh hey townie jumpiness.

And it bugs me that neither of those fuckers stayed around or commented at all. And that Old Man was like "oops" had to be prodded. Like if I got a guilty result I'd be in here post haste and he's like salsa dancing over there in the corner while he knows damn well we're all sitting here waiting on his confirmation.

Old man just doesn't bother checking back in to see what his guilty says in his defense?

Lycan lays down a burm burm burm someone seemed like they didn't believe old man need to go check back on it fizzle thrbprt.

Can the fucking town in this town act like they're fucking town because like really???

I doubt they're both probably scum because and my first inclination was they're scum trying to out fake claims but then that really seemed stupid, but the only way they're both scum is they hail mary'd the fuck out of this and fiqured they'd get one of the other lynched and the other would sail to endgame golden as shit, but that seems like a stupid plan so its probably unlikely.

There's a part of me that is like odd-night gunsmith!scum / even-night cop!town makes a hell of a lot of sense, because gunsmith makes the most sense for scum to find the vig/cop but I'm like the gunsmith!scum pushed the fuck out of Lycan all day yesterday and just happened to find the cop? do I believe that scenario.

And for anyone who wonders if that coincidence could happen, yes it could so yes it could both be town.

I'm mostly just like where is the scum outside of those two?

[Tammy]

Also can everyone stop it with their dumb crumbing
I know what your crumbing and you might as well just come out with it
I don’t even hunt for crumbs or claims but you are both obvious @ tammy and @eddie cane

Also I should probably say I forgot to submit an action for this game even though I had an insane amount of time to do so, my bad

Also I haven't crumbed anything in case you think something I've "crumbed" is in conflict with the claims at hand.

[Tammy]

Oh look a wagon.

insanity

Why? Only times you have had a problem with me is 755 and 761, which I responded to here 804. What do you think of what I said there?

vote: insanity

i concur but i'm also gonna need old man to back up his bluff from yesterday or die

It seems like your scumread of me is mostly because you think I'm scumbuddies / has strange interactions with Axel. Do you have other reasons for scumreading me? Why vote me instead of Axel today?

VOTE: insanity018

Happy to park my vote here for now.

Why? What exactly feels 'off' about me?

Even though I wondered the same exact thing, I don't like that you asked rofl why he voted you instead of Axel.

I don't know why. It's a valid question. I just think I would have liked for you to ignore it. But that's hypocritical because i'd have asked to. mrgl.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Kison

I am finding Kison most problematic at the moment. Of every player's posting in the game, I felt that Kison is the player that I should be most mind melding with. He hasn't posted a lot, but he seemed to have a strong focus on pressuring rofl in relation to the Tywin read/wagon 367 441 495 567 609. This is something that I have focused a lot on as well.

Now, roflcoptor has still not provided any meaningful explanation on anything to do with his read of Tywin. Yet, for Kison, this hasn't translated into a scumread of rofl. Later, Kison moves onto a wagon being cheerled by Rofl (Axel wagon) and implies he has no issues with rofl (776). Instead, Kison now finds me skeevy or off.

I don't think this thought process is town-motivated. I think Kison is just moving his vote/reads to where the popular wagon is.

--
I still think roflcoptor is scummy.

I still have a scumlean on Tywin/Lycanfire based on their posting. 747 834 835 are making me uncertain about whether they are actually scum as I found the posts felt very authentic tonally.

I have gut reasons for townreading Eddie Cane and Axelrod because they expressed a townread on me

very

early in the game. I think I'm one of the easier mislynches in this playerlist, so I think it would be less likely that scum would try to buddy me early in the game.

If Axel is scum, I think Pine looks really bad. I really don't like his move off Axel onto KMD, saying that he thought that there was no traction on Axel 890. I'm fairly sure there were more people preferring an Axelrod lynch to a Lycan lyncha at that point of the game.

I like this post though.

[Tammy]

VOTE: Kison

I am finding Kison most problematic at the moment. Of every player's posting in the game, I felt that Kison is the player that I should be most mind melding with. He hasn't posted a lot, but he seemed to have a strong focus on pressuring rofl in relation to the Tywin read/wagon 367 441 495 567 609. This is something that I have focused a lot on as well.

Now, roflcoptor has still not provided any meaningful explanation on anything to do with his read of Tywin. Yet, for Kison, this hasn't translated into a scumread of rofl. Later, Kison moves onto a wagon being cheerled by Rofl (Axel wagon) and implies he has no issues with rofl (776). Instead, Kison now finds me skeevy or off.

I don't think this thought process is town-motivated. I think Kison is just moving his vote/reads to where the popular wagon is.

--
I still think roflcoptor is scummy.

I still have a scumlean on Tywin/Lycanfire based on their posting. 747 834 835 are making me uncertain about whether they are actually scum as I found the posts felt very authentic tonally.

I have gut reasons for townreading Eddie Cane and Axelrod because they expressed a townread on me

very

early in the game. I think I'm one of the easier mislynches in this playerlist, so I think it would be less likely that scum would try to buddy me early in the game.

If Axel is scum, I think Pine looks really bad. I really don't like his move off Axel onto KMD, saying that he thought that there was no traction on Axel 890. I'm fairly sure there were more people preferring an Axelrod lynch to a Lycan lyncha at that point of the game.

I like this post though.

[Tammy]

So I am not prophetic! I had a dream last night that Eddie Cane died last night, but only because he was one of two of us who passed the basic math skills exam. Not because the rest of us didn't know math, because we all got our math questions correct, but we didn't follow the directions properly. Only Eddie and one other person did, I don't know who, but mafia killed Eddie because he follows directions...and knows math apparently.

I am probably the least educated player here, and I failed grade 10 math.

I mean it was a dream, but maybe you can follow directions better than those more "educated"? :p

That was Marble being marble. You probably found CES scum for the wrong reasons too if you think he voted marble because he was scum baited by marble being egotistical. CES would push and vote marble at the beginning of a game regardless of alignment because that's their history together. (I'm not trying to take away you catching scum there because you were right, but you are missing history.)

Call it gut if you want. Lycan caught CES quick and our entire team agreed he was lock scum by like page 40. It was not cftww. /irrelevant sidenote.

[/quote]

Well maybe by page 40 he did actual alignment relevant things. I'm not trying to take away a catch from anyone, but I'm just saying what history was there that was probably missed because CES doesn't play much anymore and nobody knows how the two of them interact anymore or probably even marble plays anymore because he plays so intermittently.

But regardless my major point was that he reevaluated there and here was stuck on an early narrative that didn't seem in line with his professed beliefs.

[Tammy]

993 might be the least aligmnent indicative post in the history of mafiascum, pine is so full of shit his eyes are brown

I agree with this. I know that pine later calls this post gamesolvey, but I was like sitting in a men's suit shop waiting for my other half to get fitted, holy shit I now know what it's like to just sit and wait and wait for the other half to shop zzzzzz, and was just kinda following crap on my phone and had a visceral WHAT reaction to that post being solvey while nothing else was and that seemed generic.

[Tammy]

i can't get you a hippopotas eddie but i can give you this, one of my ten posts per day.

insert here a gif of brad pitt in troy saying "take it, it's yours"

the jeopardy guys must be getting tired of playing music waiting for old man to post

[Tammy]

So MoI is gonna vote and he'll be at 5 votes

and I'm hammering as soon as it reaches L-1

Magna is already voting him.

[Tammy]

Unvote

The only thing that will make me reconsider is if Lycan comes back and claims that "yes, I have a gun" (while presumably still claiming to be Town).

He denies that, Old Man is gone. Then, if Old Man is just a terrible, terrible Townie, Lycan goes tomorrow. And we have a nice big hole to dig ourselves out of.

???

Did you have such a strong townread on lycan at that point?

[Tammy]

You guys understand how horrifically unlucky we would have to be for them to both be Town? And how conveniently the claims now line up? It's too much.

Okay so what side are you coming down on?

[Tammy]

Mostly a prod dodge.

I mostly skimmed to get current, but I'll respond to anything tomorrow.

Old Man - Who do you think Lycan's partners are? Because even if you believe you have a guilty, there's more work to do.

Thought I had a question for Eddie, but looking back I misread Pine for Lycan, so NVM.

I don't care about the probably and math stuff at all. It is *possible* they are who they say they are, and that's all that matters for that to me. These types of things do happen from time to time. Whether or not they're telling the truth about their claims is another matter, but it is possible, so.

Be back tomorrow!

[Tammy]

Korts - I'm v/la until Sunday.

I have a few deadlines this week that I need to get on top of. I should be able to post before Sunday, but this is mostly so I can stop stressing about needing to get in here also.

[Tammy]

Tammy: how are those townreads coming along?

?

My reads are an absolute pile of shit at the moment, but I don't understand why you asked how my town reads specifically are coming along?

Also you had it wrong in your table, I wasn't pro-IC claim yesterday. I just didn't care about trying to figure out because it would happen or it wouldn't.

But I do have a question for you. YesterDay when I was looking into your meta, I thought I saw a game where you were lynched day one as the town cop. But I can't find it again. Did I dream that?

I'm not actually caught up on today yet, but from what I've seen as I've skimmed, you don't seem to have changed any of your thoughts or reads based on those early interactions or the fact that hito died, which proved you wrong on that. How come that hasn't impacted your reads at all?

Magna y u no vote Fire with me?

Because when I wanted pressure on Fire yesterday it was made clear to me that no-one else was really interested. I am not going to just be tilting at windmills pointlessly and Tammy has given me council that what was bugging me the most is probably a personality dispute as opposed to me seeing scumminess.

But sell me again on your Fire case because I've been talked out of scum reading him. Maybe I need to be pointed in the correct direction as to what makes him scum other than what I always thinks makes him scum.

I was starting to get a bit paranoid of him. Though I do think it's true that there are personality issues coloring reads there.

I'm really hoping his replacement is someone active and readable.

If we arent doing lycan, we can go from there. I'll probably end up sheeping Tammy.

Why? I feel like a complete mess with reads this game and hipshot at town yesterday.

-------

I just searched my name because i'm self-absorbed. I don't think I missed any mentions of me or questions to me I need to answer though.

I need to fully catch-up on today. I think I'm going to put off some of the stuff I need to get done real life until later though, so I'll try to get caught up today.

As far as the claims go, realistically they can exist and both be town. It is a game design that's pretty elegant as rofl said; they would theoretically work in tandem with one of them being able to catch what the other wouldn't. If we had a serial killer, for instance, one would get negative while the other might get positive - though with only one nightkill the chances of that are low but definitely not impossible. Likewise with a godfather. So, in the realm of is it possible, could they both be town? Yes, that's possible based on the claims. I don't really care about whether or not it could be that much of a coincidence because I've seen coincidences along this line happen, hell been part of them before.

People have also been mentioning team size. Now three scum in a 15 player game would seem a little low, especially with the two investigatives, and it's entirely possible it could be four - though that's a bit high. IF cooldog is actually a town pgo, I guess that could be a negative town utility role that would account for just having three scum - but without having a scum flip and seeing a role or goon there's probably not much point in debating the amount of scum we could be looking for. But one thing I was thinking of in regards to the number is the possibility of a traitor.

But you know what never mind that line of thought, not that there can't be one, but in the realm of is Old Man scum, I thought that he might be the traitor. Eh never mind that other train of thought either. I was trying to figure out if one of the claimants are telling the truth but are scum, it would only really make sense for Old Man to be scum because a scum gunsmith makes a bunch of sense, but a scum cop really doesn't unless we are in a situation with a serial killer but that's unlikely.

What I'm trying to make sense of is Old Man's stated belief that Lycan is definitely scum fake claiming, and quite frankly there is a part of me that is wondering if he's lying about his role AGAIN and tomorrow is going to be like JK guys I'm not odd-night, I just didn't want to be blocked or killed tonight so I could get in another investigation. Which would mean that Lycan's even-night cop claim was an actual lie.

And here I would like fire bringer's replacement to just out whatever it is he has that makes him not believe the claims. He's already hinted he has a role by saying that he forgot to submit an action last night, so he can talk about why he disbelieves it without outing his actual role. I mean he could be trying to softclaim because he's scum, or because he's fire bringer and that's fun, or because he's trying to pull a spiffeh and draw the night kill, but at this point I care less about pretending that fire bringer's "soft" doesn't exist than having some kind of disclosure if it helps make sense of the claims on the table.

I thought I had a pretty decent thought about Old Man being a potential traitor but that actually makes no sense with his IC claim so never mind that.

Actually yeah I'm just gonna stop there. I thought I had some thoughts and was trying to work out the claims but I don't. But play wise, I really wouldn't have either of them as town and but this is a problem for the majority of the game because I feel like I'm in waiting mode for something readable from a majority of the game. I realize that I'm part of this problem too and I apologize for that. Part of it is just being really busy, which should get more manageable after I finish submitting everything I need to, part of it is that I'm not really willing to put off real life stuff I need/want to do for mafia anymore, and part of it is that I feel like I'm in a big holding pattern on reads. I hate feeling like this because it makes me just want to stick my head in the sand.

Anyway, Magna looks decently town to me. He's still hasn't achieved that thing that he does that I'm just like yeah no he's never scum at all, but he's looked decently town here and I want him to be town. The only small small thing I saw yesterday that might be a tiny red flag is if he and Axel are partnered together, and he moved over to Axel after saying he was town because rofl kept pushing and he didn't think he could look good if he kept arguing Axel town. When he said that he felt he was the reason why the Axel wagon had increased in size, I worried that was him setting himself up to get credit for that wagon in the case it went through and flipped scum, but this is the only tiny thing that isn't really the greatest red flag and could be coming from him as town regardless of Axel's flip.

I feel less great about Axel today than I did yesterday but I still think he's likely town. His interaction with rofl yesterday and his analysis yesterday felt fine to me. I think why I feel less great about him has more to do with me wondering if both Old Man and Lycan are telling the truth and are town, then where are scum at? There's also my predilection for derailing a scum lynch on day one, and I'm wondering if that's the one? Only thing that bothered me yesterday was using meta for leaning town on me. But that's because the last game we played he argued hard against that very same meta, but fair I replaced into a slot who had fake claimed and lied about their role, and he couldn't seem to get over that. Which well hm. Other than that the only fear I had was that maybe he and rofl were doing a little scum theater with their interactions.

Pine is a weird one. I don't want to clear him for that thing completely because I don't know him well enough to know if that personality type tell I even had fits him, but I also think him appealing to Magna to town read him and he's wrong feels townish?

cooldog needs to post. My only experience with cooldog is him as scum playing the role of too dumb to be scum, but his play so far is mostly just superficially posturing. Board presence in general, I don't think I'd expect too much more from him so literally have absolutely no clue whatsoever. He's part of the reason I'm in a bit of a holding pattern because no game presence that I can feel like I get a read off him at all. (Oh I thought that Magna's posting towards him day one - trying to get him to post and be readable felt somewhat strange, but I don't know in what way I think it's strange, maybe because it felt performative sort of? This wasn't exactly a red flag, but an I don't know what to do with it flag.)

Old Man and Lycan - Claims? Don't know what to do with here.

Insanity - What she says sounds fine most of the time, but her tone is pretty wooden. I don't follow why ferry's meta of "lynchbaity but has good reads" would net a town read from Eddie here. I think she has very few town games here on site and think one of them is a game that ffery modded iirc, so not so sure here.

Eddie - Thought some things looked pretty town yesterday. Kind of in a holding pattern here because I'm interested in how the interaction between Lycan and him pans out. There is something weird and unresolved here and I don't know what to make of it.

firebringer - replacement needs to post. seemed townish yesterday

kison has some tonally fine posts

ginngie - liked her pred fine enough and nothing she's said has been terrible, but need to actually evaluate.

rofl - hellifiknow

Yeah this is a big pile of crap. I was trying to kind of mind map where I was at the moment. But thrpbt need to get caught up on today.

[Tammy]

I am finding Kison most problematic at the moment. Of every player's posting in the game, I felt that Kison is the player that I should be most mind melding with. He hasn't posted a lot, but he seemed to have a strong focus on pressuring rofl in relation to the Tywin read/wagon 367 441 495 567 609. This is something that I have focused a lot on as well.

Now, roflcoptor has still not provided any meaningful explanation on anything to do with his read of Tywin. Yet, for Kison, this hasn't translated into a scumread of rofl. Later, Kison moves onto a wagon being cheerled by Rofl (Axel wagon) and implies he has no issues with rofl (776). Instead, Kison now finds me skeevy or off.

I don't think this thought process is town-motivated. I think Kison is just moving his vote/reads to where the popular wagon is.

I'm confused by this line of thought and don't really follow it. The thing I was most concerned about yesterday was Kison moving his vote from Lycan to Axel because rofl kept prompting him to, but that didn't mean he was just going to wherever the popular wagons were because he was on Lycan, who was larger at the time, to Axel making it the larger wagon.

For me there was a moment where I was concerned that he was playing up to rofl because he felt like he needed to be where rofl was telling him to be, which is well why I'm finding it hard to follow your thought there. (rofl did make a case on Tywin, whether or not you agree with it doesn't diminish the fact that he made it.)

You also have issues with rofl, so do you think there's coaching involved in that rofl was trying to get a wagon on town Axel and was trying to get his partner Kison to join him on the wagon? Or what?

Why is it significant that Kison finds you skeevy or off?

_______

I hope you had a great vacation Magna!

_______

But after rofl is clearly not willing to give an explanation, why continue to keep asking for an explanation, if you didn't find rofl suspicious at all?

???

But he gave an explanation???

OHHHHHHH you're talking about an explanation for not liking the Tywin wagon.

Okay yeah sorry that was weird.

Now that I understand though, I don't understand this line of questioning. IF he didn't find anything wrong with rofl, why wouldn't he keep asking why he didn't want the Tywin wagon?

It feels like you're asking the wrong question here. Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with kison asking, even repeatedly, why rofl doesn't like the lycan wagon.

What is potentially weird is that rofl did not answer, not even convincingly, and yet Kison moved from Lycan to Axel when prompted by rofl.

So it feels like you're focusing on the actual non alignment indicative thing instead of the possible alignment indicative thing which is odd.

I might believe it too. But there's no way I don't vote him. I can't not. I won't lose to being bluffed out by a bold scum. I will lose to lying Townies.

Hence the hate.

I don't understand this post. Mostly the wording.

_____

I'd like the replacement to explain fire bringer's reaction to the claims

_____

I talk like a sailor when drunk :/

_____

I recently used the longer version of that clip as a rally/pep talk for the scum team in Turn of Camn.

You have some serious BALLS to choose Aristophanes btw. Good job and congrats on your win. I was following endgame and bounced around on everyone else because Ari was posting. Maybe you'll be the mentor he needed to start playing scum somewhat decently!

Now I need to go and rewatch Troy. Such a solid action movie, even if it makes Homer roll over in his grave a bit.

Yeah, he destroys Homer but it still gets the spirit of the Trojan War even if it destroys Homer. But I enjoy the movie nonetheless. (I also think they weren't going exactly for Homer but were mixing the various legends of the Trojan War from Homer to the middle ages - though the killing of Menelaus will always be too egregious for me.)

_______

Old Man - As has been said before, the PGO is definitely not a red herring to a gunsmith as you'd be dead investigating him. It's not a counterclaim for him to claim cop or be cop because you guys would check different things. I don't know why a doctor would protect me or scum kill me either; my reads are all over the place and I started a wagon on town to boot. Why aren't you suspecting me for trying to save a wagon on Lycan in that regard?

I have reasons for being okay with Lycan dying, but I genuinely believe both claims.

What are those reasons? Weren't you squarely against his lynch yesterday?

Leaving my vote on Lycan.

I'm confused. I read that post as you pretty much laying out why Lycan wouldn't be claiming the way he was as scum, but then you leave your vote on him. Granted my mind is a bit frazzled athlete moment from stuff I'm buried under, so maybe I'm misunderstanding, so halp?

I thought he'd deny having a gun and let the "gunsmith" get mislynched if he was scum, tbh. Lol.

halp?

Hito full stop didn't want to hear about Pine

How did you miss that Hito was scum reading Pine?

At that point I felt like you and roflcopter made insanity an acceptable SR and Hito plainly fingered her as scum on a KMD townflip right afterwards.

Now that Hito is dead and town, how do you feel about that?

Pick up at 45 in a bit. Have some stuff to do for a bit.

[Tammy]

Tammy – When you get back to the game I want you to give me some straight talk as to why I shouldn’t be voting Lycan if you think there is any.

I don't. I have none. His play makes absolutely no sense to me and neither does Old Man. I'm quite frankly at the point where I want to throw my hands in the air and say lynch them both I don't care!

Why would you ask me?

Okay I lied, I'll actually pick up from here in a bit. Page 45 was speculation/math I don't care.

[Tammy]

And I'm lying again, apparently I don't have anything to do tonight. :/

and I'm sorry for posturing more but seriously I want to siteflake and I don't want to gameflake and 1 month deadlines are honestly just excessive and boring. please lets not do a repeat of last day phase. town win rates do not go up when you use more time, but apathy flakes do!

Feels town.

And I'm caught up. Magna's frustration feels town too.

I'm in kind of a shitty mood right now. I'll try to put together some thoughts in a minute.

[Tammy]

i was really thinking that you guys were on the right track regarding Insanity being scum and I do think that her questions to Kison seem to be focusing on the non-alignment indicative thing instead of what could be alignment indicative and that feels wrong on a foundational level, but I spent a little time this morning trying to make sense of eddie cane's ferry's insanity meta and why that particular meta is making him read her as town. I also thought actually insanity!scum would be a perfect reason for the Hito kill, besides Hito just being a good kill regardless, whether or not Lycan is town. Although Hito's main focus early game was on Pine and then Tywin/Lycan, he had also made some points against insanity pretty early on. So that kill seemed like it would be one that would somewhat benefit her but maybe not directly relate back to her because there would still be Lycan to contend with.

I thought at first he was stretching a bit because there's a game ffery replaced into with Insanity that insanity was killed night one in, I don't know what her reads looked like. But ffery also modded two games with insanity, one in which insanity was lynched day one - goes along with lynchbaity - but she town read all the scum that game. And another where she replaced out, but did have a correct scum read. I still don't know how that meta in particular leads to a town read there.

That led me to looking at Insanity's last scum game which was the last geriatric game, and in that game she seemed very focused on making logical arguments for why she thought people were scum whereas here she feels a bit aimless? at times. So now I'm not sure.

pedit: Eddie I've been kind of avoiding talking a bit about Lycan today because I just don't know. I was hoping to get something out of the interaction between the two of you, and I just ended up feeling a bit more huh? One game that I was sort of semi-following was that spin off of team mafia that just ended with Lycanfire in it because while I was watching that game go on, he felt really town and certain and involved and I was constrasting that to how he was playing here because here I'm mostly like he's not making much sense. That game ended recently and he was town and he caught CES scum again, but people didn't listen to him. I feel very annoyed with his play, and I'm at the point where I just don't even care if he's lynched and is town and that's not a very good place to be. Dammit I had another thought I was going to say and I just lost it, but I'll try to pick back up this thought when I get back.

Anyway, what I did realize is that I'm spending way too much time reading through people's other games, because I also ended up reading through Magna's Thaw game as well, to try to make sense of my big pile of shit reads in this game. And I don't want to be doing that, so thrbpt I'm going to try to make my way through people's iso's to try to ground my reads.

When I've been this lost on reads before it's usually because I'm trying to town read scum making the rest of the game not make sense to me so I spin my wheels and/or there's a group of players who I'm waiting on to make sense of.

The group of [Old Man, Lycanfire, CoolDog, Firebringer] fit the bill for the people I'm trying to make sense of and in a period of waiting on. The town in that group need to make it obvious they're town because that would help to put the rest of the game into perspective for me. There's a part of me that more and more is wondering if Old Man is lying about his claim again, maybe not even being a gunsmith at all, and the reason why he's so convinced he caught scum is because Lycan formed his claim around Old Man's fake claim.

Anyway I've got some things to do today, but I think I'm going to try to make my way through some iso's and see if I can make sense of some things.

[Tammy]

that pedit should be at the end not in the middle :/

[Tammy]

tammy's mental gymnastics around insanity are giving me the same heebie jeebies i got when she went out of her way to find reasons to townread axel yesterday...

Yeah, an insanity scumflip leads me to Tammy.

I'm sorry that trying to figure out the game bothers you so much. Next time I play I'll try the tactic of lurking or sideline sniping while painting people with dishonest rhetoric instead of trying to actually read people's alignments. Maybe that brings more satisfaction.

Do look at that last insanity game, it's the last geriatric game that ran, and see for yourself if I'm insane if there's much of a difference. or don't.

[Tammy]

It's here by the way if anyone cares to look: viewtopic.php?p=9840790&user_select%5B% ... 7#p9840790

[Tammy]

It doesn't "bother" me, Tammy. I'm drawing associatives between you.

AtE strawman *noted*

OH good god.

Hey if you you know want to figure out people's alignments in this game, why not actually read what I had to say and respond to it?

Or sideline snipe buzzword.

Pretty much par for an unfun slog of a shitfest game this is.

[Tammy]

Besides - an Insanity Townflip negates the read...which if you're Town you have no inside information about. Why so nervous?

I'm not nervous about shit.

I'm annoyed.

roflcopter has this schtick where he paints people disingenuously which never looks to me like trying to figure out the game, but it's his thing so it's hard to read. roflcopter should never have been town reading me in the first place after he got after me for "going out of my way" to town read Axel.

You've been sideline sniping all game.

I wasted time this morning apparently trying to figure out someone's alignment and Eddie's claim about fferry's insanity meta. But does anyone in this godforsaken game want to actually talk about the things that people post? NO. Sideline sniping it is. False associatives it is.

I don't like wasting my time, but this entire game has been just me wasting my time.

[Tammy]

the lycan wagon was pretty dead at the point I switched anyways iirc

look over my insanity mentions when you iso me Tammy, I believe I've directly commented on what you're talking about

I saw where you had her as leaning town originally because she seemed like the only one on your wagon that was trying to figure you out and you thanked ffery for her meta there, which I guess means something for what ffery told you but this morning I didn't see that ffery had any experience with scum!insanity so i'm not sure what that could be. And then later you said she said she was lurker lynchbaity with good reads, but I don't understand how that meta left you with leaning town there.

[Tammy]

Without the knowledge she is lynchbaity and etc, her play is scummy. To cite Creature again, my first game with him I didnt know his playstyle and heavily scumread him even though he was obv town in retrospect. It was more to say okay,her posting style and lack of frequency is null, let's focus on what shes doing which is genuinely sorting me.

One thing I was looking for this morning besides getting a sense of what fferry's meta was was if she had questioned a town read on her like the way she did this game, which gave KMD the early town read on her. Not that it's a definite town tell regardless, but if I could find a similar situation and response, then I could discount KMD's reasoning for town reading her. What I found is that while she does well as scum, she doesn't get early townread declarations - or at least ones she's responded to.

Now, she is low activity regardless of alignment. And she doesn't always look really scummy because she has been a night one nightkill in games before but she's also been a day one lynch. In some games she's a bit more assertive than others, and her tone feels a bit more assertive than here, but I don't know if I'm reading it that way because I know her alignment in those games and so I read them with that in mind.

What she told me earlier this game about her scum style does seem to be the case in that the things that she chooses to pick up on when scum are things that look superficially scummy, or are "scumtells", or things she can look good pushing. It's not always the case when she's scum, but in the last game she played she made sure to have cases with evidence for the people she was pushing. (One thing I did notice was that in one game when she was scum someone pointe out something they didn't like and she answered with she didn't like the same thing about them, which read a bit like deflection and she sort of did that with me and kmd yesterday.)

Anyway my meta troll wasn't so much about metaing her for comparative value so much as it was trying to figure out what ffery told you about her and how accurate that was. i.e. was it plausible ffery told you that and are you using it correctly type thing? The other thing was just to see if KMD could have been onto something with the town tell and then it kind of snowballed from there.

Do you think in the way she has approached kison concerning rofl and magna's cherry picking thing that that fits with what you were told?

There just feels like there are a few nexus' this game and i've yet to figure out a worldview that makes the most sense to me.

There's the {Axel and Insanity} are scum

There's the {Pine, rofl, Magna} are scum

There's the {Lycan} is scum

I'm sure there are points that converge throughout all but none of the worlds that have been presented make a whole lot of sense to me.

pedit: MTGS, where Axel plays, uses 9 v 3, but this discussion probably won't get us anywhere.

[Tammy]

Here's something I came across which raised a tiny eyebrow for me. Interestingly enough from something Firebringer said re: Magna. In #247, Firebringer made this remark:

Old man: yes MOI does that regardless of alignment though, what is alignment indicative is his delegating read responsibility

It was not clear to me what comment of Old Man's Firebringer was responding to here, but what I took as the gist was that Firebringer saw a scum-modus operandi for Magna when he delegates his reads on people to other people. That stuck out to me in as much as it's largely what Magna did later when he ultimately decided to vote for me, delegating his vote to rolf who he was Town-reading. Magna and Firebringer had a little argument after about whether Fire actually had a good record of catching out Magna as scum, which was a little weird in as much as it would seem to be pointless for Firebringer to lie about his ability to suss out a scum-Magna. He could certainly me mistaken, or mis-remembering, but actively lying about it would seem silly.

Now Firebringer's gone and I can't ask him about this. I suppose I can ask Magna how often he gifts his vote to people he is town-reading without having strong feelings about whether the person he is voting is scum or not.

[Tammy]

Here's something I came across which raised a tiny eyebrow for me. Interestingly enough from something Firebringer said re: Magna. In #247, Firebringer made this remark:

Old man: yes MOI does that regardless of alignment though, what is alignment indicative is his delegating read responsibility

It was not clear to me what comment of Old Man's Firebringer was responding to here, but what I took as the gist was that Firebringer saw a scum-modus operandi for Magna when he delegates his reads on people to other people. That stuck out to me in as much as it's largely what Magna did later when he ultimately decided to vote for me, delegating his vote to rolf who he was Town-reading. Magna and Firebringer had a little argument after about whether Fire actually had a good record of catching out Magna as scum, which was a little weird in as much as it would seem to be pointless for Firebringer to lie about his ability to suss out a scum-Magna. He could certainly me mistaken, or mis-remembering, but actively lying about it would seem silly.

Now Firebringer's gone and I can't ask him about this. I suppose I can ask Magna how often he gifts his vote to people he is town-reading without having strong feelings about whether the person he is voting is scum or not.

Wooops I meant to comment on that last one.

It just so happens that I looked through a recent Magna town game this morning, and there was a moment when he sheeped GreyIce on a wagon based on GreyIce's case. IIRC it came at a point when Magna started doubting another of his reads and was willing to back up GreyIce for a while because he had made a case. The game I looked at this morning was The Thaw and it's in this forum, so you can check for yourself if it looks the same.

What I found when I looked into this before is that Magna does work with people on reads, so I didn't think that fire's point there was very strong and he never really fleshed it out or responded to my point about Magna working with other people on reads.

[Tammy]

Bye Insanity

and fire bringer but I wasnt' around when he replaced out to say bye.

Also, I almost made that same exact post this morning :/

[Tammy]

Bye Insanity

and fire bringer but I wasnt' around when he replaced out to say bye.

Also, I almost made that same exact post this morning :/

I just wanted to say that even though you scumread me, I enjoyed the way you post and playing with you.

If I return to this site in the future, I wouldn't mind playing with you again

Thank you! I enjoyed the way you posted too and would like playing with you again too. I'm sorry if you're town and I was all squinty eyed at you.

[Tammy]

Axel - are you going somewhere with this analysis?

[Tammy]

Semi-strong associative with Insanity imo

Explain this please.

Also did you actually agree with rofl that me having reasons to scumread insanity but becoming unsure after reading a scum game of hers was mental gymnastics? How does rofl's statement even come close to passing for an actual thought you want to cosign?

~~~~~


Magna - Will you take a quick glance at Insanity's iso in that game I linked and tell me if I'm insane to think it looks different?

[Tammy]

Yeah this just isn't worth it.

mod please replace me sorry.