Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Also, I don't think scum don't talk like this? Like, he's unnecessarily calling attention to himself. I dunno. It's a weak read, but definitely more town than scum.In post 14, Mitillos wrote:Hello everyone.
VOTE: Irrelephant for not confirming yet.
While I have your attention, please explain why you switched votes between your two posts.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Why?In post 32, skitter30 wrote:i think mtilos' post was low-key townie-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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What do you think of this, the worst?In post 56, Mitillos wrote:Until post 30, I was ready to convert my random vote on elephant to a real one. After that I no longer do, but I want to correct him. @Irrelephant: "whom".-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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That's not true, but whatever.In post 66, skitter30 wrote:and you tried to mislynch in mylo in the most recent one ...-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Why are you town on Nauci?In post 84, skitter30 wrote:town enough for page 4: mtilos, irrel, creature, nauci, shoshin-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Can you link the mafia game you're referring to?In post 90, Mitillos wrote:@the worst: I'm sure you're perfectly fluffy. Aggressiveness is a separate property altogether. We'll probably talk at length later. As for Irellephant, I've seen a ton of games he joined late or didn't talk for a very long time (ignoring these), and a bunch of newbie ones where he is the SC (ignoring these too). Other than that, looking at his recently finished games, I've seen three games where he doesn't wagonjump a lot as a townie, and one where he does as mafia. Unless someone else who has played with him a lot wants to provide additional data, I'm going with this and with the OMGUS on me, so now my vote is serious. Could you explain your Performer vote? I thought his post was pretty standard RVS.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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That's how I felt too, but I liked her reasoning on Nauci enough to leave the wagon for now.In post 117, Keyser Söze wrote:Maybe a townlean on Shoshin (but disappointed she left Skitter wagon) - I thought Skitter was sheeping Shoshin too RE: Mitillos-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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This feels like scum. Especially compared with everyone else.In post 57, Performer wrote:The guy posted itt as post #1 out of all us though....
VOTE: Mitllos
also who are you mitil? An alt?
but! He has probably more large theme experience than any of us!In post 18, Shoshin wrote:Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?
And he hasnt even posted yet-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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@Mitillos
I'm comparing Performer with players who have posted readable posts. Performer's post feels scummy because I don't get the sense that he's trying to sort alignments, his justification for voting you feels overly mechanical and careless, and his response to me feels really awkward in a way that feels scummy.
I disagree that it's "regular RVS" since we were already deep into sorting alignments (at least from my perspective, there was a lot of content to start analyzing). But even if you read it as RVS, that doesn't mean you can't use it to sort his alignment. So I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Weren't you reading pretty deep into an RVS post yourself?-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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His aggression feels over-the-top. His "disgust" towards townreads doesn't feel town at all, especially when comparing Varsoon's town game to his scum game. As town, he himself tends to townread certain players for seemingly nothing (e.g. his townread on Reck in TAZ Mafia), whereas as scum he does everything in his power to prevent lots of townreads from forming (can't reference a specific game yet but will eventually). His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none, since I'm town and when I'm town it's fairly obvious to anyone who has played wiht me before, and that includes Varsoon). And finally, his commentary on Nauci and others feels overly descriptive; as town he was more analytical and tended to make more concrete interpretations of alignment based on what players are doing, instead of just describing their behavivors and then saying he doesn't know what it means.In post 206, Mitillos wrote:Edit: Explain the new vote, please.
Having experience with both town Varsoon and scum Varsoon, I'm confident this is his scum game. His response to my vote is also pretty damning imo, since he's not even trying to sort me but instead just wants to start a pointless back-and-forth between us when he should know better - it'll just clog the game with stuff that isn't relevant, since we just disagree about how to play the game on a very fundamental level.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
- Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I'm pretty sure Varsoon is more interested in proving that I'm a bad player than he is in proving that I'm scum... so I'd appreciate having others weigh in on his alignment, because maybe I'm just biased.
Mitillos, check what I said about the Varsoon's attack on the easy formation of townreads. He himself forms them as town (as in TAZ) and attacks them as scum (reference to come, or you can check for yourself). It's a very clear difference between his town/scum game. And it also happens to be clearly pro-scum to attack the formation of townreads, since lots of townreads on townies make it very difficult for scum to push mislynches.
As for responses to Varsoon, sure, I can respond to his questions.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Remotely good? The votes create pressure on someone who hasn't contributed, forcing them to do something readable or get lynched. I think this is especially good because in recent games I've seen scum lurk out to a win doing nothing all game without ever facing any pressure or votes.In post 195, Varsoon wrote:What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?
This was sort of a joke post (notice that it's post 18), but it was also a way to test Irrelephant (I know he's against policy lynching) and a way to let people know that I have a fundamentally different way of thinking about the game than Varsoon. I never intended to actually policy lynch him.In post 196, Varsoon wrote:
What's the policy, even?In post 18, Shoshin wrote:Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?
the worst knows me enough to be able to make the call that I was a step townier than anyone else at this point in the game. This post was directed specifically at the worst, because I don't expect anyone else (except Irrelephant) to have the same read. It's based in large part on knowing my play as both alignments and knowing that I can't fake this type of play as scum.In post 197, Varsoon wrote:It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:
For what reason even?In post 46, Shoshin wrote:I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.
What's "spineless" about this? That's all in Varsoon's head. It shows that he's going after me from the start. I just happened to have similar feelings, yet somehow it's "spineless"? Lol...In post 198, Varsoon wrote:This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.
As for trajectory, did I need one? It's post 51 of the game. But sure, here's the trajectory: I asked Skitter a question about her read on Mitillos, because I felt that she was sheeping me. As you can see later in the game, when I explain the vote on Skitter, I state that the reasons I suspected Skitter were due to the way she was following my reads (as well as others) instead of forming her own, which felt very different to me than the way Skitter played as town in my prevoius two games with her. That was my trajectory. A question, followed by a vote when I saw someone else had the same feelings. I strongly believe that having others who share your feelings about something adds strength to the force behind those feelings, and in this case it did. That isn't "spineless," though - it's just smart play.
I asked her a question about a specific issue that had everything to do with why I suspected her.In post 199, Varsoon wrote:^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.
That's all of Varsoon's questions. He doesn't actually offer any reasons to suspect I'm scum. He asks some questions and then votes me without waiting for responses.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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This is the problem with discussing anything with Varsoon. It's always going to come down to a fundamental disagreement about something, at which point the discussion just clogs the game with pointless theory talk.In post 221, Varsoon wrote:Furthermore, me taking umbrage with people having easy townreads isn't even a scumtell or a towntell, it's literally what any player should do regardless of align when, within 6 pages, there are over a dozen thrown out 'this person is town' naked reads.
I think he's scum because of what he's doing. I think there's a clear difference in his meta on this point, and I also think this specific behavior reflects an anti-town mindset, even if unconscious.
But I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong, because I certainly don't hold myself out as knowing how to read Varsoon.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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My sense is that Varsoon's a lot more "angry" as scum than as town. Check meta please. You will be surprised.In post 236, Irrelephant11 wrote:great, Varsoon is likely town or else is very good at faking anger (someone let me know if so) my [redacted] was "tunneling on the most widely-townread townie and making alignment-judgments about other players based on his preferences for how mafia should be played all feel like town!him". Add "angry at the right moments" and it's town!Varsoon, imo-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Does his play there look anything like his play here?In post 239, Irrelephant11 wrote:viewtopic.php?t=77508-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Why?In post 302, Varsoon wrote:I do suspect that at least one of Irrel, Shoshin, AlmostNancy, and TheWorst is scum, yes.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I thought the humor in his posts around 250 were townish.In post 312, Keyser Söze wrote:Creature should be a null read for everyone right now.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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What're your reads?In post 316, Creature wrote:
Yeah, seems too easyIn post 311, Shoshin wrote:Performer, Xtoxm, and one of Teacher, Varsoon, or Not_Mafia as scumteam? Seems almost too easy.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Please mention. Join us townreaders!In post 318, Creature wrote:I remember having some handful number of townreads but didn't mention them through the thread because it felt too obvious-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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the worst, what's your take on this? town or scum?In post 327, Creature wrote:
but I didn't keep track of them :/In post 322, Shoshin wrote:
Please mention. Join us townreaders!In post 318, Creature wrote:I remember having some handful number of townreads but didn't mention them through the thread because it felt too obvious-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Irrelephant isn't Gustavo. Can't compare.In post 331, Performer wrote:gustavo-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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And then there's games where blocks are composed solely of town... and those blocks crush scum...In post 334, Varsoon wrote:I don't believe in blocks this early, I've modded (and played in) too many games where scum have infiltrated D1 townblocks and coasted on it hard.
Your response doesn't answer my question. It's fine if you don't believe in forming blocks as a matter of theory, but once they've been formed, you need to sort them. Why are you assuming the block has one (or more) scum instead of actually trying to figure out the players' alignments?-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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That's not what I did, nor is it what Nauci's talking about.In post 337, Varsoon wrote:@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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That was an impressive read, actually.In post 342, Irrelephant11 wrote:viewtopic.php?p=10493177#p10493177 - replaced into a game I'd been barely skimming in which shoshin was pretty widely scumread (and not playing very well) but I was correctly >80% sure she was town-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I didn't call for your policy lynch. I didn't even vote you until much later in the game. What I did is jokingly ask Irrelephant a question about you, after which I didn't mention you again until we started building pressure to get you posting. Besides, I didn't think you'd care since you've seen town do this before without thinking twice about it (e.g. RC in TAZ). I don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this...In post 374, Varsoon wrote:
You literally called for my policy lynch on D1.In post 343, Shoshin wrote:
That's not what I did, nor is it what Nauci's talking about.In post 337, Varsoon wrote:@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.
Did you not think I would respond to that?-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Yeah, maybe "sheeping" is the wrong word. I'm just not used to having you agree with me as much as you did, so it felt off, like you weren't forming your own reads like you usually do. And when Nauci felt it too, I followed up her gut ping. In retrospect, I think the fact that we were all agreeing about things early on in a very natural way is a sign that we're on the right path, sort of like what happened in American Presidents. And I think the people trying to prevent us from forming a townblock are more likely to be scum. I certainly can't imagine the scum just sitting back letting us form a townblock like this without at least one of them attempting to instill paranoia.In post 386, skitter30 wrote:i disagree that i sheeped you
i had similar conclusions as you did.
that doesn't mean i had them *because* you did, or that i was trying to mimic you on purpose
like i'm not sure how you can even possibly distinguish sheeping you from forming my own reads that incidentally were similar to yours at that stage and i dislike that you assumed it was the former instead of the latter (i've previously told you how i feel about sheeping even ...?)-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I'm constantly reassessing reads. But I think there's more than enough information so far to find town/scum among the active players.In post 397, Varsoon wrote:But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Excellent decision. Thanks for trusting.In post 406, Varsoon wrote:
That's good. I have good confidence that you'll find 'em.In post 403, Shoshin wrote:
I'm constantly reassessing reads. But I think there's more than enough information so far to find town/scum among the active players.In post 397, Varsoon wrote:But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.
That's why I'm following you.-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I agree with this. He's not someone I'm townreading yet, which worries me. But he's also less scummy than players like Performer & Xtom.In post 418, skitter30 wrote:that's why i was a little confused when keyser said a few pages back he was struggling to form townreads because i feel like there's people in this playerlist that he shouldn't have *that* much trouble reading - it was just like a completely differnt understanding of the gamestate that i was a little bit surprised-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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This post actually has a "too scummy to be scum" vibe. Ironically.In post 264, Performer wrote:
Fixed.In post 197, Varsoon wrote:It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst + Performer deny it outright
I dont like policy lynching (and for that matter I dont believe in the notion of "too scummy to be scum")-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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I've got Irrelephant, the worst, Nauci, Nancy, Skitter, and Mitillos as town.
Creature, Varsoon, NM, Key, Saudade, teacher, and xtom are varying degrees of null, some leaning town, others scum.
Performer's still scummy, but the "Fixed" post actually has me rethinking whether scum would actually play this badly. So I want to reevaluate a few things.
As a starting point, does anyone disagree with my townreads?-
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Shoshin Jack of All Trades
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