Warrior Cats Mafia [Game Over!]

[catboi]

LET'S

FUCKING

GOOOOOOO

[catboi]

VOTE: Datisi

I'm the only catboy here

[catboi]

ur not even a catboy anymore

ur just

cat

[catboi]

I am a cat.

VOTE: Bell

[catboi]

I’m very confused as to how many factions there are and whether the dark forest cats are *the* scum team or *a* scum faction.

That

should not be question if you actually read your role PM

[catboi]

did bell actually try to fake a derp on page 1 lmao

[catboi]

Catboi should be familiar enough with my typical opening posts to note that I always derp about set up early game and ask the most basic questions that are usually also “town slippy” but not actually sloppy and I actually don’t know the answer.

To me it looks like there is: the star clan which is town. The river clan which I’m apart of that may or may not consist of town( a neighborhood) and it tells me I need to kill the dark forest cats to win. But it doesn’t really tell me anything else, whether there are additional factions, whether the star clan and the river clan are the same etc.

So I’m asking for basic flavor information.
Is the river clan part of the star clan.
And if so why are they both clans which makes things confusing?

It's been over half a year since we last played and I barely remember any of KtaNE except the bad stuff.

My question is that the PM is pretty unambiguous about the win condition being the elimination of all dark forest cats so I don't follow the logical thread that leads you to wonder if their

could

be other scum giving nothing suggesting the possibility.

[catboi]

Catboi should be familiar enough with my typical opening posts to note that I always derp about set up early game and ask the most basic questions that are usually also “town slippy” but not actually sloppy and I actually don’t know the answer.

so are you sussing him?

Yes. But I don’t know if they’re playing it straight or just acting to pressure early game.
I think they know I’m smarter than to try to fake a town slip page 1 as scum, which makes their comment confusing as they could be intentionally dumbing themselves down. But sometimes I do that to push at someone. So.

My expectation is that you'd be more likely to try something like that to get cleared over faking social read which you notoriously have a distaste for

Can you just walk me through why you asked about that stuff?

[catboi]

It’s not clear to me.
The dark forest clan doesn’t have a faction color the last line implies that the protectors of the star clan win when the dark forest cats are dead. But it doesn’t seem clear that there are only 2 factions. Or only two win conditions. I don’t know whether the star clan is *all* of the town or only aligned to certain clans.

Which is why I asked for clarification because I do, in fact come out asking the obvious questions early.

*see, lost*

oh you were thinking that dark forest could be a catchall for scum rather than a singular faction

I get it now, that makes sense

[catboi]

My goal is to get eliminated within the first page for having a dog avatar.

Task failed successfully i guess?

Am i the only one in the thunderclan, nobody posted anything yet apart from me?

I've posted in the ThunderClan PT. I don't see your post in there. Double-check that you posted in the right PT?

Would appreciate an answer to this!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Charloux

[catboi]

My goal is to get eliminated within the first page for having a dog avatar.

Task failed successfully i guess?

Am i the only one in the thunderclan, nobody posted anything yet apart from me?

I've posted in the ThunderClan PT. I don't see your post in there. Double-check that you posted in the right PT?

Would appreciate an answer to this!

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Charloux

I was just messing with him?

Messing with him why?

[catboi]

I don't understand what the problem is. I saw him being the only one to post in the pt and was like "Is there anybody in the thread" to have fun.
Was going to keep playing dumb but i guess it's better not?

So you were just trolling?

[catboi]

I don't understand what the problem is. I saw him being the only one to post in the pt and was like "Is there anybody in the thread" to have fun.
Was going to keep playing dumb but i guess it's better not?

so you faked you posted in the neighborhood at start to mess with people head who can see you didn't post there? That kinda makes no sense

More likely that you confused PTs and posted elsewhere first instead and then started acting like you were messing with people in some way when called out?

VOTE: Charloux

That would imply no one else posted in the scum PT though which seems incredibly unlikely?

[catboi]

is the postcap what's making y'all jumpy because it feels like you keep going off on things that are more arbitrary than scummy

Hi, welcome to RVS

[catboi]

He posted at 6:27 in pt
I posted at 7:56 in main thread
This is my local time obv.

After thinking about it i have to admit my joke would mainly be funny among teens, sorry about that.

thank you but please don't reference timestamps

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ceph

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Ceph

this vote will not help you divine my alignment because either way i know you are just doing it to see if i will overreact

you'll need a few more votes to see if i claim scum or not

Interesting you assume that's why I voted you.

[catboi]

first takes

- dann bell misty towny
- charloux FA eh maybe towny
- catboi SS hmm
- datisi marachu scummy

VOTE: datisi

why am i "hmm", and why is marashu scummy?

[catboi]

first takes

- dann bell misty towny
- charloux FA eh maybe towny
- catboi SS hmm
- datisi marachu scummy

VOTE: datisi

why am i "hmm", and why is marashu scummy?

vibes

i thought the entrance felt light and jokey but since then you seemed kinda stiff and serious and like... quick to jump on things early in a way that i think of as more scummy for you

for marashu just gut something about the entrance felt off. like immediately going to snark as a reaction just doesnt feel right to me? i feel like the natural town response to something like that would be to be more inquisitive, it doesn't really feel sort-y

If anything I feel like I'm more jokey to begin the game as scum but meh no going to debate this. Me getting serious was p obviously a factor of the things I saw being posted.

I actually feel like the remark from Marashu was towny? Like, the whole paranoid world "did you post in the wrong pt?" suspicion seems way more likely to come from a townie, I don't think it's a thought that is very likely to occur to scum.

[catboi]

But, Dr Worm wasn’t a really doctor. So you’re not really scrrrd.

SHARP PENGUIN. DO YOU WANT TO VOTE SOMEONE IN OUR CLAN TODAY?

STOP.GIVING.INFO.WHEN.WE.DONT.KNOW.MAJORITY.OF.SETUP.
VOTE: SCRRRRBEAR

I wish what happened in my hood stayed in my hood...
So 4 clans, 5 scum. My current theory is that scum are in 3 clans, and preventing them from knowing who the strays are is the key to this game.
That means no saying who the clan members are and no saying who the leaders are.

But you had no problem with claiming your claim right away so why are you now acting like it's a bad thing?

Further, if scum are in the cleans they're going to

know

who the clan members are, so why would any of those identities be hidden?

[catboi]

If anything I feel like I'm more jokey to begin the game as scum but meh no going to debate this. Me getting serious was p obviously a factor of the things I saw being posted.

I actually feel like the remark from Marashu was towny? Like, the whole paranoid world "did you post in the wrong pt?" suspicion seems way more likely to come from a townie, I don't think it's a thought that is very likely to occur to scum.

i mean i don't get that feeling from it at all tho?

like there isn't a town curiousness behind it, it doesn't come off as a serious paranoid wondering if he actually did post in the wrong PT. it's more of a sassy response, feels to me like poking fun at someone they know is town

Meh, I guess. I don't love the fact that he sort of walked the read back and basically treated it as unserious but I wouldn't vote him over it.

[catboi]

IF ALISAE TRUSTS NORWEGIANBOY AND VAL AND ALISAE ARE BOTH STARCLAN DUE TO THEIR IMPULSIVITY AND CONVICTION, WHO IS LEFT IN WIND CLAN? WINDCLAN SEEMS EASY TO TRUST OVERALL AND IS THE GROUP I FEEL SECOND-MOST-COMFORTABLE HUNTING DARK ONES IN.

I don't think impulsivity and conviction are towntells for Alisae but I do feel like the way they responded to Val's case on them was towny in that it has a dose of self-righteous townie indignation to it and I didn't really grok what Val's arguments were supposed to be. (I am admittedly biased because I'm happy to be in a game with Alisae again though)

[catboi]

This has the potential to be a really dumb read but Norwee seems relaxed, which I think is townie? He seemed pretty stressed out when he left the site and I think if he drew scum he'd be feeling a lot of anxeity but the way he's posting just feels like he's self-assured of his own innocence. Does remind me a bit of how he was playing in the game where I tried to shitpush him as scum.

[catboi]

something_smart prob town, btw.

SCRRRRDBEARD feels town although I have no idea what a SCRDBR scumgame would look like

Fine with my vote being where it is.

pedit: dammit bell you're not supposed to say my reads before I do!

[catboi]

This is a boring post that people will not want to listen to but in all likelihood given a setup of 4 clan hoods of 5 players + 1 stray, which seems very probable at this point, alignments were distributed randomly between all players rather than being mod-assigned. It is possible, albeit unilikely, that a hood is pure.


If you want to use the clans as mental bracketing for sorting a group of people it's fine. Just please for fuck's sake don't start chain-limming people in endgame because "we haven't found the scum in their hood yet".

[catboi]

i don't feel like i have a confident read on alisae or norwee, i do lean town on val

Why's Val town

[catboi]

290

im not like super confident on it but i think he feels like town val to me

That's really kind of vague? Like what in specific have you seen that makes you think that? Elaborate a little for me.

[catboi]

Bell and Datisi kinda feels like scum theatre (or at least something's off about their interactions).

That's a pretty out there take. Why's that?

what makes you think catboi town?

Why did you ask about the least interesting part of the post, lmfao

[catboi]

DO YOU HAVE ANY EVIDENCE FOR THIS? WHY SHOULD I BELIEVE ALIGNMENT IS RANDOMIZED BETWEEN SUB GROUPS RATHER THAN WITHIN SUB GROUPS? IT'S INTUITIVE FOR ME TO ASSUME THEY ARE RANDOMIZED WITHIN THE CLANS RATHER THAN BETWEEN. I STILL BELIEVE 4 CATS WILL DEPART TO FORM SKY CLAN, AND THERE WILL BE 1 DARK ONE WITHIN THAT SUBGROUP OF CATS AS WELL.

HOWEVER, I HAVE NO EVIDENCE THIS IS THE CASE, THIS IS JUST WHAT MAKES SENSE PERSONALLY TO ME FROM A DESIGN STANDPOINT. CAN YOU ELABORATE ON WHY IT'S MORE PROBABLE ALIGNMENT IS RANDOMIZED BETWEEN SUB GROUPS?

basically I think having a designated amount of scum per hood is bad design practice because it rewards people for making arbitrary assumptions about neighborhood just because they exist. In particular with the whole game being this setup it just makes more sense things would be random and it couldn't easily be metagamed - like, trying to answer the question "would to mod make the stray be scum" isn't really mafia because you're trying to guess what someone who isn't a player in the game was thinking. Whereas if it's purely randomyou have to actually bother to sort that player. I don't know ydrasse's design sense specifically, I'm not claiming to have any insider knowledge, but I imagine she'd trend toward not letting the setup be easily metagamed like that.

But I just scum read Datisi because their approach aligns with what I think of as their scum game.

Go on?

[catboi]

290

im not like super confident on it but i think he feels like town val to me

That's really kind of vague? Like what in specific have you seen that makes you think that? Elaborate a little for me.

i mean i already explained the specific aspect of his play that was reminding me of his town play idk what more you want

like i can go pull up the posts from invictus that i think are similar if you really want me to but idk what you're hoping to accomplish here

feels a little weird i wouldn't expect you to care about this

No, I don't want to read his posts from invictus, I want to read the ones from

this game

you think are towny. If you

have to

, you can draw a comparsion between butt I want a little more than one sentence from you on why he's towny.

I'm literally just asking you to elaborate on your read, why are you getting so defensive?

[catboi]

@Marashu, UNACCEPTABLE! *lemon* Yeah, that's fine.

@Catboi, but it's embarrassing to give my opinions on people.
In general I tend to think Datisi is workman-scum. They think content+Activity = a shield.
And it's their go to shield. How they approached my poke and their generic statements this early felt like they were aligning with that approach.
I'd like to sit on it, but I just never can help myself.

The important part to them was getting in my face and saying I was wrong in an active manner, rather than seemingly anything else. Because they thought it would look the best.

Then again, my brain is broken

sometimes.

all of the times. Please don't listen to me. Now I'm remembering all of the times I suck and it's really discouraging. Even though, technically I've not misread Datisi yet, but when you think about it, that's like 3 times which isn't credible and also I was a lot more patient there.

Nah it's fine, I don't have a read on him yet, I was just interested in hearing why you had that read. That helps, thanks.

[catboi]

276. like i said, i think it's towny bc he is like, viewing the game as if it's revolving around him, that alisae has this master plan to start suspecting him prior to him pushing a case on them so that they can be the one to do it first. and just the overdramatic 294 is kinda the same vibes. it's just like, really over the top in an almost conspiratorial way? and that feels like something that is not super easy to replicate as scum bc replicating it would require being self-aware of it as town and i think it's kinda inherently something that you wouldn't be very self-aware about. and additionally this matches up with my previous meta knowledge of val

and im just kinda weirded out by your approach to me here bc it feels v different than past experiences when you were town

idk if you've ever asked me to elaborate on a read in that way lmao

Okay,

thank you

. See, this is the thing, I wasn't super interested in Val in particular, I was interested in

why

you were reading Val that way and wanted to hear more on it. It's easy to give one sentence on a person but it's a lot harder to fake an in-depth thought process. That explanation tracks, thanks. That type of read is very similar to ones I've made before. I'm not

sure

it applies to Val but also my track record reading him is, uhm, not very good so I'm reserving judgment.


I don't think i'm obligated to play every game the same way, because that wuld be boring, and sometimes my mood dictates I play differently. Also, I have not been great at reading you in the past! So of course I would try something different! Like, sorry if that was annoying but I'm

literally

just trying to get a read on you.I don't know why people tend to freak ot like this when I interrogate them on their stances.


Anyway you can be town~

[catboi]

139 - 148 doesn't feel real to me and I think I'm fixating on it.

VOTE: Marashu

I went back and thought about this. Those posts just look like regular early game banter to me, I could see an exceptionally paranoid mind going s/s there but the "I think I'm fixating on it" is a very odd choice of verbiage. It feels like a bit of self-narration meant to make it

look

like Marashu is thinking about things but comes across as unnatural. It's more concerned with talking about

what

he's doing over

why

he's doing it, if that makes sense.

[catboi]

IS IT POSSIBLE TO GET FURTHER CLARITY FROM THE MODERATOR ABOUT WHEN/HOW ALIGNMENT WAS RANDOMIZED?

basically I think having a designated amount of scum per hood is bad design practice because it rewards people for making arbitrary assumptions about neighborhood just because they exist. In particular with the whole game being this setup it just makes more sense things would be random and it couldn't easily be metagamed - like, trying to answer the question "would to mod make the stray be scum" isn't really mafia because you're trying to guess what someone who isn't a player in the game was thinking. Whereas if it's purely randomyou have to actually bother to sort that player. I don't know ydrasse's design sense specifically, I'm not claiming to have any insider knowledge, but I imagine she'd trend toward not letting the setup be easily metagamed like that.

I UNDERSTAND MUCH BETTER NOW AND WILL KEEP THIS IN MIND MOVING FORWARD. THANK YOU FOR EXPLAINING. I FEEL LIKE YOU ARE PROBABLY CORRECT. I MIGHT GO BACK AND RE-EVALUATE SOME OF MY READS.

fwiw it's roughly an 80% chance of at least 1 scum in a hood if I'm right so it's totally fine to solve people in groups based on hoods, at least in the early game, if it helps you to think about things better.

I'm personally not paying much attention to the hood groupings outside my own though.

[catboi]

VOTE: kittytacky

[catboi]

I've had a long day at work and haven't had time to read the whole thread properly but that kittytacky post is the worst I've seen in this game by quite a bit.

[catboi]

Every game lately is like this. I try play in a way that makes me have fun and also can solve at the same time. But i always end up feeling annoyed. I didn’t even really want to sign up to this in the first place. But now i’m here and just as expected i’m first wagon. All i can do is grit my teeth and bear it. I don’t even know why i manage to continue despite feeling miserable. It’s some kind of strange stubborness that never let’s up.

i'm not really sure what you're intending to accomplish with this beyond dragging the thread mood down

What were

you

intending to accomplish with

this

post?


FWIW I think in almost every game I've seen norwee gets pushed early and after a while he got sick of it. I'm assuming that was part of why he left the site earlier this year. I don't think him expressing frustration is inherently alignment indicative because it'd be genuine regardless, but his play here seems more or less like NQN2, where I tried to push him when I was scum. My general vibes are toward him being town but in general a post like this seems pointlessly inflammatory toward him

[catboi]

I've had a long day at work and haven't had time to read the whole thread properly but that kittytacky post is the worst I've seen in this game by quite a bit.

the worst? how so?

its a bunch of quote stripes followed by one-liners with no thought put into them, half of them don't even say anything important, and he ends it with a really obviously opportunistic vote on half baked reasoning - just "I'm convinced" and absolutely nothing more which doesn't feel like he had real thoughts about norwee's alignment at all

It's about the most classically newbscum post you'll ever see

[catboi]

FOS SHIIDAJI

YOU WILL NOT BELIEVE WHAT HE JUST POSTED IN HOOD OH MY GOD

ok I think I have parsed this post.

townreads bell for 24. (Honestly, not bad)
31 gives him "bad vibes." Guy goes on to say it comes from the formatting of the post (You cannot make up how he described what it is he did to describe what he felt about the formatting/spacing)
likes 41
doesn't agree w/ 51
52 i just don't get what is going on with his commentary here at all??? (I think this guy is reading into RVS stuff way too much)
likes 61
doesn't like 73 (???????????????)
said 99 was tmi (??????????????)
liked dann
liked 112
likes fa feels like she is explaining her push well (whatever the fuck that means)
says ceph could be scum for being snippy (Isn't that just how Ceph is. I mean can't blame him for not knowing)
likes 204
doesn't like 234
likes misty

is putting all solving in hood more likely to come from town or scum

open question i honestly dont know

I mean my first reaction was "omg are we actually reading hard into posts pre 100. Are we ACTUALLY saying SS is scum and that Charloux is DEFENSIVE??? What is going on in this post" but as I was reading along with it, there were somethings that made, sense, somethings that didn't and somethings about the post that just seemed townie?

Honestly, if he is scum, and he reads the hood, I'm not sure why he would post that??? Maybe it just makes more sense that the intent is to spew himself to his hood??? Honestly that makes more sense if he's just a villager doing his thing and posting that kind of post, it seems, out of touch if anything?

Alisae can you explain what was it about his post that made you react the way you did in this first post? Because your description of it makes it sound pretty benign to me

[catboi]

I've had a long day at work and haven't had time to read the whole thread properly but that kittytacky post is the worst I've seen in this game by quite a bit.

the worst? how so?

its a bunch of quote stripes followed by one-liners with no thought put into them, half of them don't even say anything important, and he ends it with a really obviously opportunistic vote on half baked reasoning - just "I'm convinced" and absolutely nothing more which doesn't feel like he had real thoughts about norwee's alignment at all

It's about the most classically newbscum post you'll ever see

why does this (specifically the part about the vote) apply about kt's vote on norwee but not norwee's vote on char

VOTE: Charloux
I think there’s been major off vibes from this slot. They’ve been involved in multiple shifty scenarios now and their responses always pinged me as weird.

This vote? There's a structure of an

actual thought

there, even if it doesn't say a ton and amounts to a gut read - it doesn't strike me as being nearly as clumsy as kittytacky's and the explanation in 440 is basically fine? I can believe norwee finds those posts scummy as town. It's not the same as "yeah I agree" VOTE:

[catboi]

catboi is town on a tell that i just made up

always the best kind

Alisae can you explain what was it about his post that made you react the way you did in this first post? Because your description of it makes it sound pretty benign to me

369 covers it more detailed but it just looked like newbscum at a first scan. On a first scan I thought it was reacting a bit too much about stuff that happened in rvs. Talking about rvs posts that didn't really do anything and on top of that coming to really weird conclusions so it looked scummy at a first glance. 364 was me actually trying to read and parse the post along with my reactions to some of his thoughts. Like, at a glance, if one read the conclusion he came to off of post 31 without reading what he had to say about the post itself, it looked weird. Like getting "bad vibes" from SS' 31 I just don't see how that happens but the way he sells it makes it look like it could be something that he actually believes.

Does this help?

yeah I was just really confused at what could have possibly provoked that reaction to begin with, but I guess I get it that sometimes your first impression of a post can be way different than how you feel about it after you stop to think about what it says

[catboi]

i would argue that actually makes it worse? norwee's reasoning feels really thin to me - it's there but it doesn't really feel like it was a genuine thought and not just an after the fact justification, and i feel like scum would go to more effort to at least look like there's some solving happening

so i think a follow with thin reasoning is worse than one without reasoning

I don't know the thing is I've played a bunch with norwee so I don't necessarily expect deep reasoning from him, at least early on. I have almost definitely mis-elimmed him for reasons similar to this.

[catboi]

Rookie scum mistake to overreact to me expression my feelings on a fos.
Like do you self-consciously believe that a case was like coming onto you??? That's what I think is going on in the head of scum!you.
I did not vote you, and I asked Ceph "is this actually scum, or am I just reading everything as scummy"
But I am advancing a case on you???

Like, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Newer player rands wolf.
Newer player starts to feel like they are being suspected
Newer player overeacts and attacks the person in response to suspecting them
The person in return attacks them harder because the newer player is acting unnatural and unreasonably to the attacker.

i don't really understand what about this makes val scum tbh
like this narrative is one that could have happened if he was scum, but what makes you think that's most likely? what about it is not believable as coming from town?

Exactly, fire.

You'd know exactly the sort of reaction I think this is and why it's scum from you having made this sort of reaction when you were scum.

I think Alisae is scum here for similar reasons I thought your reaction to my claim made you scum. It's not

identical

, but it's

similar

--Alisae's reaction is overblown. Alisae's reaction is disproportionate. Alisae's reaction was a snap-reaction that was fairly OMGUSy. Sound familiar to you?

Because to me those are the hallmarks of scum that made a somewhat-panicked snap-decision to react to a town player hitting a nerve.

A town-Alisae WOULD put thought into how it could come from town. A town-Alisae would know the narrative was wrong, but not know that it came from scum. The instant judgement of Val being scum is incredibly damning for Alisae as being Alisae as scum having made a bit of an impulsive reaction that e wouldn't have made as town.

Yes, I know Alisae is impulsive regardless of alignment.
Yes, I know Alisae is reactive regardless of alignment.
Yes, I know Alisae can make OMGUSy moves as town.
Yes, I know Alisae can make snap-decisions and instantly come to a conclusion.

But there's a difference between 'can', and 'would'.

I believe a town-Alisae would not have the impulse to overreact to Val and instantly pivot to the OMGUSy push there. A town-Alisae might react to it, but not in the way e did.

I think there's a world of difference between the scenario from datisi's cafe that you're talking about and this game. In that game fire's reaction was to a

faked guilty

which carries a significant degree of weight to it - people are very likely to vote you for it and you can't really ignore it. Scum panicking and overreacting in that scenario is very understandable. By comparison a singular vote on Day 1 carries not much weight at all - it wasn't like val's case was particularly likely to get alisae killed on its own so I don't believe they would overreact in such a panicky way as scum. I

would

buy it if this was being done by a more raw or inexperienced player who would be more likely to feel threatened by minor suspicion. But someone who is actually good at scum knows 1 vote on day 1 doesn't mean all that much and isn't going to overreact. I just don't buy the argument that "alisae panicked because val was close to the truth", because my impression of alisae's scumgame is that they are significantly

less

impulsive (although this is secondhand knowledge). They might

fake

being impulsive since it's what people expect of them but a move like that doesn't strike me as particularly considered or tactical.

I also think describing it as "instantly pivoting" to an OMGUS doesn't really sum things up accurately - alisae had clearly shown suspicion of val prior to that point, and the response to val was an escalation of the read rather a sudden change of any sort. I think in particular the expression of "Rookie scum mistake to overreact to me expression my feelings on a fos" feels way more likely to come from town who feels like they've caught scum out with their suspicion and have baited them into a scummy response. I think it comes from a place of alisae having confidence in their own innocence and believing val's attack on them had no validity and must be coming from scum rather than any sort of survival instinct.

[catboi]

something something good scumgame big paranoia etc etc

i did vaguely read your thoughts on him but they didn't really resonate with me one way or another, so

i was hoping to gain insight by seeing his read on me but apparently he has NONE so far so idk i will just be vibing there for now

That is probably because you haven't done something that makes me feel like giving a read on you yet!

In our last game you were obvious town to me very quickly but I haven't gotten that same feeling from your posts here. However, you also haven't done anything I've read as scummy, either. So far I think your thoughts on the game have been

fine

but they mostly just exist. I haven't seen anything I'd regard from you as a unique or complex thought I could definitely mark you as town by so I'm mostly reserving judgment.

Like, do you think you're out of scum range right now? Because so far I think you're in the middle of both your ranges.

[catboi]

i like catboi's posting on this page quite a bit more than previous stuff which is a nice surprise. not enough to lean town yet but im less worried there i think

kitty doesn't feel scummy in quite the same way that he felt scummy when i played with him when he was scum but he still feels kinda scummy so sure

VOTE: kittytacky

I should apparently write more half-assed ramblings at 2 AM, then

[catboi]

I don’t have a scum PT to share this with my
Pals, but fire says he thinks marashu and catboi are scum buddies.
You heard it here second.

This is kind of funny to read right after he says he likes my posting after I decide I found a better vote than Marashu

So my wagon looks like this:
Frozen Angel, Something_Smart, Titus, Mistyx, Datisi, Kitty, Norweigan.

FA is obvtown imo;
SS didn't show as much passion as FA, but is always keeping an open mind for other things which is a town mindset.
I don't understand Titus vote on me. It feels more like an OMGUS rather than a scumread. The setup itself makes her really unlikely to be scum.
Kitty's vote seems too opportunistic, just hopped on the biggest wagon quoting a random post and affirming that i'm scum.


Mistyx, Datisi, Norweigan; What is even your goal with my wagon? Do you want me to explain my thought process for yesterday? Claim all my role details?
Explain my theory in detail? Do you want to get me to L-1 and act shocked when someone hammers?

I do think this is an okay post from Charloux that has kind of a believable solving mindset and the response to pressure feels towny. I am okay with the assessment that he seems to be getting run up for being weird rather than actually taking actions that make sense as scum. If anything him now knowing what he's talking about is more likely be town indicative, I get the sense there's a potential language barrier thing going on

Anyway it's nearly 3 AM so I think I'm gonna stop here for the night and finish reading everything else tomorrow morning

[catboi]

Yes no?

Amazing

[catboi]

I find myself with less and less things I want to comment on as I'm reading up. Dunno if I'm just tired b/c it's saturday or what.

I don't see anything that particularly pings me about Marashu from what is evident in this thread. Anyone from Thunder able to give me a TLDR on what's happening in there to want to wagon Marashu, or point me to it if it's already been given and I've missed it?

I THINK IT WAS A POE READ BECAUSE I WAS OPERATING UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT THERE WOULD BE 1 DARK ONE IN EACH HOOD, AND I QUICKLY BELIEVED THAT CHARLOUX AND PENGUIN WERE TOWN.

This is, uh, an Interesting statement considering that I would not expect that read on Penguin from most players. I ?probably? have the best read on Penguin out of anyone in this game and I think he's been decidedly null so far. He gets more readable as the game goes on and I expect by the end of Day 1 I

should

have a strong read on his alignment But I don't so far. What did you see from him you thought was towny?

---

I didn't really like 102, it seemed to be explaining away people's reads instead of engaging with them. 164 is pretty shallow (in particular I think most of what I was doing was not particularly towny but easy to throw a townread at), 232 and the followup feel TMI-y because Titus did not in fact confirm it, and I have a silly tinfoil that she mixed up PP and FA in 297 because they're both her partners (and a less silly one that she mixed them up because they are both town).

I feel like the setup spec stuff is a not-impossible assumption given my own thing was along those lines but I can agree the early posts you highlighted feel a bit stiff.

---

also, why wouldn't i be clam? i get pushed for nonsense in the early game practically every other game nowadays. i didn't think the current pushes on me were very notable or interesting. i still wanted to address them.

This is true, but I feel like you've tended toward being more paranoid of those pushing you than what you've shown here?

---

also, why wouldn't i be clam?

BECAUSE TOWN-YOU IS UNINFORMED WHICH CREATES UNCERTAINTY, SOMETHING YOU ARE NOT DISPLAYING.

i get pushed for nonsense in the early game practically every other game nowadays. i didn't think the current pushes on me were very notable or interesting. i still wanted to address them.

THIS IS A FALSE NARRATIVE INTENDED TO EXPLAIN AWAY YOUR SCUM TELLS. IT IS TRUE THAT YOU ARE OFTEN PUSHED EARLY FOR BAD REASONS; HOWEVER, TOWN-YOU DOESN'T REACT THE WAY YOU ARE REACTING NOW BECAUSE TOWN-YOU HAS TO SORT THE PLAYERS PUSHING YOU. YOU AREN'T TRYING TO SORT PLAYERS LIKE ME WHO ARE PUSHING YOU, YOU ARE JUST TRYING TO APPEAR NONCHALANT AND HOPING TO GET TOWNREAD RANDOMLY ON ACCIDENT BY BEING PRESENT IN THE THREAD.

NEXT, ONCE YOU REALIZE THAT I WILL NOT BE TALKED AWAY FROM MY TONE READ ON YOU, YOU WILL FLIP YOUR READ ON ME AND MAKE BAD EXCUSES WHY MY READ ON YOU SHOULD NOT BE TRUSTED.

Bear's just a townie, I was feeling a slight twinge of doubt but I don't think this case is particularly likely to be coming from scum. The conviction shown appears real and the little bit of little bit of pre-emptively anticipatin Datisi shifting tactics feels like town who believes they've really caught on to something.

---

pedit - fire, is that thought supported by meta or is it independent of it? what feels off to you?

meta in the sense that it doesn't feel like, natural for you, i guess

like the nonchalance feels kind of awkward and ingenuine, in a way that feels off based on just knowing you

idk about if it's supported by meta in the sense of does this feel more like your town or scum game, but the way you approach games as scum seems to vary widely and ive wrongly let go of suspicion before bc it didn't necessarily match up with prior scum experiences. it doesn't really match how id expect you to act as town, though

I like the fact that fire is making this observation because it pretty much lines up with my own thoughts, this isn't really the response I'd expect Datisi to have to pressure as town and it's good that we're on the same page here. I wouldn't say it's damning or anything for Datisi because every game is different but consider me raising a skeptcal eyebrow at it.

---

Misty: Your standards for what you think is relevant is too high if you think there is one total player with alignment indicative posts so far. I’m not here to coach. But you’re going to be dead soon if you don’t alter course.

I consider gimmicks to come from strange people.@Bear.

VOTE: Mistyx

*stares gently at Datisi*
I’m not sorry.

not sure what to think about this

part of my gut wants to call the first post tmi on me since it’s not like he townreads me but maybe it’s just a weird style thing

I don't really understand how that's supposed to be TMI Like, him saying you have too high standards is speaking from the implicit POV you are town? I don't think that's really indicative of anything, people very often tend to speak from that perspective in games and I've seen more than one person get run up because of making a statement with supposed TMI. I feel like that particular type of scumread is very rarely true.

val is probably town, the commitment to the alisae case and then cooling on the read unprompted didn’t feel like agenda (on phone so not grabbing postnums)

I don't think this is particularly good rationale given scum can easily soften/temper a scumread they aren't finding any support on and I

kind of

think that was what was happening with Val - the overall response to his Alisae case seemed to be a collective shoulder shrug and in that instance I think scum typically doesn't keep trying to argue something they know won't work. I think that

might be what have happened, actually, but I'd want to go dig in the ISO first.

[catboi]

val is probably town, the commitment to the alisae case and then cooling on the read unprompted didn’t feel like agenda (on phone so not grabbing postnums)

I don't think this is particularly good rationale given scum can easily soften/temper a scumread they aren't finding any support on and I

kind of

think that was what was happening with Val - the overall response to his Alisae case seemed to be a collective shoulder shrug and in that instance I think scum typically doesn't keep trying to argue something they know won't work. I think that

might be what have happened, actually, but I'd want to go dig in the ISO first.

Nah, I went to look at Val's posts and I'm not feeling him as scum, the stuff about reporting on posts in the hood and feeling like alisae might be pocketing norwee dosen't feel like scum trying to make a point, in particular because trying to base arguments on posts a majority of the game cannot see is really unlikely to gain traction with anyone and I expect as scum he'd be a bit more conscious of optics and making arguments that might actually be persuasive. Far more likely he believes he's actually caught on to something. fwiw though I think alisae and norwee are friends, iirc? and I would sort of expect that type of interaction between them as he described it. So. Not really feeling the case but don't think val's scum for it.

[catboi]

This is true, but I feel like you've tended toward being more paranoid of those pushing you than what you've shown here?

on average, yeah. but the thing about being so self-aware of your towngame and whether you're in the flow of the game is that it's impossible for me to be paranoid when i explicitly feel i'm not in the flow and i don't feel malice from those pushing me. i am fairly certain that you should be aware of this, that i don't exactly show paranoia towards those whom i'm townreading and/or feel are reasonable in townreading me.

i'm not quite clear whether you think this is scummy from me? do you think i show (or at least try to show) that same paranoia as scum?

I said it later in the post (while not speaking to you directly) but I *do* think it's slightly suspicious but not enough for me to vote you for it. From memory, I think as scum you're less likely to to respond aggressively to suspicion.

---

ok I think I have parsed this post.

townreads bell for 24. (Honestly, not bad)
31 gives him "bad vibes." Guy goes on to say it comes from the formatting of the post (You cannot make up how he described what it is he did to describe what he felt about the formatting/spacing)
likes 41
doesn't agree w/ 51
52 i just don't get what is going on with his commentary here at all??? (I think this guy is reading into RVS stuff way too much)
likes 61
doesn't like 73 (???????????????)
said 99 was tmi (??????????????)
liked dann
liked 112
likes fa feels like she is explaining her push well (whatever the fuck that means)
says ceph could be scum for being snippy (Isn't that just how Ceph is. I mean can't blame him for not knowing)
likes 204
doesn't like 234
likes misty

IDK I'VE THOUGHT ABOUT IT AND I THINK THIS MAY BE KIND OF SCUMMY?

What about it is scummy

IT SEEMS LIKE IT COULD BE BOTH FISHING FOR TOWNREADS AND SHOWING A FEAR OF POSTING IN THE MAIN THREAD?

He's a 2011er who has played one mafia game in the past 3 years so the most natural explanation is he fell behind on the game, not that he's frozen and crying in wolf chat. I get the sense he' probably not coming back so /shrug.

[catboi]

This has the potential to be a really dumb read but Norwee seems relaxed, which I think is townie? He seemed pretty stressed out when he left the site and I think if he drew scum he'd be feeling a lot of anxeity but the way he's posting just feels like he's self-assured of his own innocence. Does remind me a bit of how he was playing in the game where I tried to shitpush him as scum.

sure but how you concluded they are

relaxed

? low post count? less reaction to getting voted?

It was more in relation to what he was saying and the way he was saying it in relation to my mental model of who he is as a player. There wasn't a sense he was, like, playing with ulterior motives he just seemed to be casually posting stuff about whatever interested him. I realize "vibes" is not a particularly satisfying answer but that's basically what it boils down to and I don't know how cinvincing it'll be to anyone else.

something_smart prob town, btw.

I need you to elaborate this one for me

This, also is something tht is going to be hard to explain without getting into everything about his playstyle but in the simplest possible terms, he's involved and has actual thoughts about the game ad is trying to figure things out. By his own description his scum playstyle is "basically treading water". I realize he's consciously altering his playstyle this game because normally he never gives this many reads or is this proactive as either alignment but I lean toward believing it's real and town-motivated, because he's self-aware of how his own meta is perceived and is able to play into that as scum, and I think he'd be less likely to try a playstyle ateration as that alignment. There's also little things about who he's choosing to give reads on and the stuff he's saying about being paranoid of the people he likes solving with that rings very real to me.

---

FIRE GETS MORE POWERFUL BY THE MINUTE. ALWAYS KNOW WHERE THE FIRE EXIT IS!

ANY REASON YOU CAN'T SHARE ABOUT YOUR READ ON

Crap I wanted to get caught up tonight, but I'm running out of steam.

I'm sorry, I don't think I can.

I got half-way, to page 9, but I don't think I can get everything done tonight, sorry.

VOTE: MASTINA?

Why did you choose the most NAI post imaginable from mastina to quote with a vote?

---

well there goes my plan to fakeclaim leader and draw a kill that would've been awesome

I kind of have trouble believing this was a real thought you actually had

---

honestly i see her solving the game and having any town motivation and my previous experience was watching her mail in a scum game in ktane that was so obvious i was voting her uninterrupted for like, 4 game days

this was also most of my reason for townreading misty fwiw

she's probably more capable than that as scum but in that it just didn't feel like there was any solving happening under the hood at all, and here it does. but also just like a relaxedness of not needing to force anything

I don't think townreading someone for,like, having a pulse is great reasoning and nothing she's said is partcularly impressive to me.

[catboi]

I have a ~spicy scumread~ I will not be discussing at this point in time. But it exist, just so you know. I will give towncred if anyone can get there before me.

[catboi]

Why did you choose the most NAI post imaginable from mastina to quote with a vote?

BECAUSE I INFERRED IT MEANS MASTINA IS AFRAID OF HOW SHE WILL BE JUDGED IN THE THREAD, SO SHE'S PROMISING MORE ACTIVITY LATER. I GUESS IT COULD BE NAI BUT IT SEEMS LIKE A SOLID LEAD CONSIDERING IT'S STILL RELATIVELY EARLY ON D1. DO YOU TRUST MASTINA?

Okay you're an alt so I don't know if you've played with mastina but she literally always ends up behind in games and writing massive catchups that take her a ton of time so it is usually a while before she gets current with the thread. Saying that stuff about promising content later is a nulltell for her. My read rate on mastina is not very good but I think she's been fairly towny so far.

[catboi]

It is possible, albeit unilikely, that a hood is pure.

Actually, statistically speaking, a hood being pure is the

most

likely rand.

For no clan to have 0 scum requires that each scum gets distributed to a different spot, with the final either doubling up on one or being the outsider.

In other words, it's basically guaranteed that there IS a pure clan, and it is likely the Mistyx/Bell/fire/Cephrir/FA clan.

Also, Alisae and Norwee are scum in the same clan, so......

I was thinking entirely in terms of individual probabilities (i.e. any given hood is unlikely to be free of scum)

...you are correct, though. I wouldn't say

basically guaranteed

but it's likely.

---

Would be crazy if Mastina was scum and sacrificed their reputation by mislimming me on D1. But i think it could work.

Mainly because it’s so easy to argue: "Oh but why didn’t he play like (insert game from 1942 where i acted differently day 1 here)? Guess it was his fault we killed him"

I don't really think these are scum posts. I just feel like this kind of conspiracy reasoning is more likely to come from town.

---

I have now technically caught up to where I re-entered the thread, so probably just going to pop back to where I left off last night.

[catboi]

This is kind of funny to read right after he says he likes my posting after I decide I found a better vote than Marashu

it was a half joking theory but unironically i think if you had decided you wanted to bus marashu (i did think your trajectory into him was kinda weird) then you wouldnt be super likely to just go somewhere else in the way you did, felt more like towny exploring new options than scummy agendaposting

so yea it did kinda factor in actually

I look forward to rolling scum against you if

that

is enough to make you change your read on me. Because while it's the correct conclusion it's pretty bad process that can be pretty easily exploited - like if I was scum with Marashu why

wouldn't

I try to move off him?

Like, do you think you're out of scum range right now? Because so far I think you're in the middle of both your ranges.

no, no i don't think so. though, out of curiosity - if i had answered "yes, i do think i'm outside my scumrange here", then what would you do?

ftr, my poke towards you wasn't meant as a "catboi *should* have a read on me by now," it was a "i hoped he'd have a read on me by now, as that will potentially help me read him."

It would kid of depend on the justification you had although I think in your own words "I would never do this as scum" is, like, your go-to defense as scum, lmao (although usually used when you have literally nothing else to stand on so less likely day 1)

Also I actually think your reads look mostly decent although I'm still in wait and see mode on penguinpower, so

you're probably fine? (I know this is responding to a post from over a day ago and we've had conversations since then but w/e lol)

mastina's case on Alisae/Norwee is very compelling. I feel like her arguments on Alisae are stronger so it's interesting that she's more sure on Norwee. VOTE: Norwee

so given this, why are you voting norwee and not alisae, if you think the case on ali is stronger?

Okay, this is goodposting from misty. Marashu's response of 693 underwhelms because if Marashu thought the case for alisae was stronger he easily could have put a vote there to begin with to try to shift pressure, but instead it just feels convenient, and the fallback of "if they're both scum" is discordant with the case on ali supposedly being stronger

[catboi]

Catboi is probably just wrong town tbh. I strongly TR him in spire of everything because I understand why someone would SR me for my weird playstyle. But with me, you gotta look at the motivation behind my posts.

How am I supposed to look at your motivation based on what you've offered? Because so far what you've offered is content that looks scummy to me followed by complaining about the game being hard for you when you got wagoned.

I got reminded of one of my first games that I remember well, Baseball I think, where Norwee was scum and they played pretty similar to how they play here.

Why did you not say this in the first place when you voted norwee? Can you explain to me what you think is similar between those games?

[catboi]

KittyTacky's response to pressure is a lot different from what I remember of scum!KittyTacky in turing test

here there's a lot more indignation "This is my town game!!~" sorta stuff

there it was "sorry, I'm playing so poorly"

I went and took a look and I don't really see the difference you're talking about? Here's a few select posts from turing test:

Spoiler:

Dear God, this whole "I don't get scumread" thing is insufferable.
I don't think it's necessarily scummy, because the same thing happened somewhat in Terminator, but it IS obnoxious and makes the game way harder to follow for anyone else.


Anyway,
VOTE: Greeting
Ignoring the actual substance of posts in favor of superficial "tells" is probably as scummy as it's gonna get D1.

Did a reread of the whole game so far, yeah I can sheep this.
VOTE: Greeting

I think KittyTacky is a better vote tbh Bell

VOTE: Kitty

Why do you think he's scum?

He is shading without specificity - which tends to be scum going through the motions rather than actually thinking about who is mafia

I do this as town tho.

Don't like Dannflor, mostly.

I have trouble believing you actually scumread Dannflor because you have done literally nothing to push or sort him.

I was busy IRL and feeling out of this game, and I think Greeting is scummier at this point anyways.

@Kitty, I would really like your read on Vivax. Can we not run him up before this gets answered please?

Rather scummy.

I just... do poorly in mountainous games as I found out. It's slightly demoralizing having no play around PRs to find scum/town with.

Here's some posts from this game:

Spoiler:

Re: The whole Norwee case
You know, I'm convinced, VOTE: Norwee.

VOTE: kittytacky

I've had a long day at work and haven't had time to read the whole thread properly but that kittytacky post is the worst I've seen in this game by quite a bit.

I've had a long day at work and haven't had time to read the whole thread properly but that kittytacky post is the worst I've seen in this game by quite a bit.

the worst? how so?

its a bunch of quote stripes followed by one-liners with no thought put into them, half of them don't even say anything important, and he ends it with a really obviously opportunistic vote on half baked reasoning - just "I'm convinced" and absolutely nothing more which doesn't feel like he had real thoughts about norwee's alignment at all

It's about the most classically newbscum post you'll ever see

If you ever played with me, that's how I play as town lol. Lots of one-liners. I'm struggling to adapt to this post restriction. And if I legit had nothing to add to a case I agreed with, what would I say besides "I agree"? Sheeping is not scummy.

i like catboi's posting on this page quite a bit more than previous stuff which is a nice surprise. not enough to lean town yet but im less worried there i think

kitty doesn't feel scummy in quite the same way that he felt scummy when i played with him when he was scum but he still feels kinda scummy so sure

VOTE: kittytacky

Yes because this is my fucking town playstyle and now I'm being wagoned by someone who never played with me. I legit had nothing to add to the case, why on Earth would I say something else?

I'm legit trying but it's hard. I also never played a large theme before.

I'm town, I play weird but I'm town. Nothing else to say, if anyone has any questions you can ask.

I guess you could squint and say there's a bit of a tonal difference where in the other game he was more defeatist but the thing that's standing out to me is the over-reliance on excuses for lack of content - in the other game it was being busy and the setup being mountainous, here it's the game being a large theme and the post restriction (which makes no sense given him barely having any posts to begin with). Like, are these really all that different?

[catboi]

catboi, do you have a solid read on fire?

could you answer this catboi?

Yeah sorry, I didn't miss that post but I am incredibly busy today so it's going to take me a while to get to things. I thought his response to me badgering him about his Val read was towny and the explanation was satisfactory and the paranoia about me earlier felt believable. I haven't gotten around to fully processing his posts from last night but right now I'd say town.

[catboi]

no problem sorry, I didn't realize you hadn't read

I look forward to rolling scum against you if that is enough to make you change your read on me. Because while it's the correct conclusion it's pretty bad process that can be pretty easily exploited - like if I was scum with Marashu why wouldn't I try to move off him?

I only asked because this feels... like a vaguely incurious thing to say to someone and I was wondering if the reason was that you had a very strong town read on fire or something. Because it reads like you're talking to someone you know or think is town pretty strongly, because generally I feel like my reaction to seeing a bad process would be to interrogate it a little more?

There was a time I would have jumped on that comment but I've seen bad process come from town a lot so I've cooled on attacking that thing. I'm not sure what you interpret that question as other than an interrogation, though.

[catboi]

it felt more rhetorical than not to me but it's possible I was just reading what I wanted

how do you feel about marashu right now / the marashu wagon

I'd lean scum still but I think that he tends to be on the lower activity end as either alignment so could easily be a miss. There was an anon dance game where I paired with him mainly as a "whatever" and kind of slowly came to townread him but it took a bit. Kind of feel like giving him time.

Do you think Marashu is the best vote right now?

[catboi]

Is activity the main reason you have him as lean scum?

No it's not activity but his posts have felt a bit hollow so far

[catboi]

I have also used a postcap as an excuse for low volume as scum lol

and I remember dwlee doing it in the geriatric game I modded

[catboi]

can anyone who knows bell tell me whether "i got the impression you're scum in the first 5 pages and i'm gonna stick to it" kind of behaviour is more like his town or scum game

because i can currently think of (1) reason it's townie and (1) reason it's scummy

I would say that description makes him sound like lock town tbh

[catboi]

can anyone who knows bell tell me whether "i got the impression you're scum in the first 5 pages and i'm gonna stick to it" kind of behaviour is more like his town or scum game

because i can currently think of (1) reason it's townie and (1) reason it's scummy

I would say that description makes him sound like lock town tbh

i think the part of town bell that is hard for scum bell to imitate is the natural evolving thought process

and like not just sounding stiff and wooden and forced and obligatory and like he doesn't want to be there

i think him sticking to a scumread from the first 5 pages is none of those things and i don't know why it would make him locktown, do you really think that's the thing he can't do as scum?

Not in any iteration of scum-him that I've seen. It's possible he decided to actually up his game but I think it's less likely than him being town here, because generally as town he just gets a scumread and then harps on it until someone listens to him.

[catboi]

I have a ~spicy scumread~ I will not be discussing at this point in time. But it exist, just so you know. I will give towncred if anyone can get there before me.

No one wins the prize.

VOTE: Dannflor

[catboi]

I kind of expect this to not be that convincing to most people, but if there was a player here whose play I would most accurately describe as 'going through the motions', it's Dannflor. It felt like prior to the point I posted 724, he was making posts to give the appearance of doing things, but it wasn't really building to anything useful, just the occasional stray read or question, nothing showing any depth of thought, pretty trivial to fake. Since his v/la ended he's dropped a few walls, but the thig I have to question is

why

he chose to write thosee walls - it's three towncases on Datisi, SCRDBEAR, and fire. And while I think those are

fine

reads to have I question why Dann feels the need to post about those reads in particular - I think SCRD and fire in particular are close to consensus townreads and no one actually needs to read anything. The Datisi one is at least more relevant in the fact that several people are scumreading Datisi so I

could

see town making that defense but the placement of it in the rest of his body of work still feels unnatural to me - it feels more broadly like he's positioning himself to be 'correct' on Datisi rather than doing anything else.

It doesn't really feel like he has scumreads he actually cares about. The thing is, I feel like by his questioning, he should be skeptical of me, and he placed me as a scumlean in his reads list, but he also seems to have latched on to my kittytacky scumread way too easily. And I don't believe that town, who is suspicious of a players, sees that player scumcasing someone and decides they're okay with the case. I'd expect him to show a little more skepticism if he was actually suspicious of me. I've noticed that when I'm wrong on a scumread Day 1 scum pretty frequently latch on to my push and the way he progressed from defending kittytacky to starting to agree with me felt unnatural - like he wanted to be able to push the wagon but not look opportunistic in doing so. By comparison, look at how much he's putting out on his towncases versus his scumreads - 854 and 856 are effusive. 901 is pretty empty by comparison, and the reasons are all pretty generic. It doesn't really feel like a read he actually believes in. In my experience, while it's reasonably easy for scum players to fake believable sounding townreads - because after all, they know who is town and will always be correct in their reasoning - it's a lot harder for even good scum players to fake believable scumreads. They don't actually have that internal thought process, the drive to find scum, and in general townies are much more inventive with how they try to find reads while scum just repeat cliches. And that's what dann's scumreads feel like to me.

There's other stuff too but it's related to hood stuff so I don't know how persuasive it would be - his posts in there felt pockety in that he was townreading people rather early for rather simplistic things and it felt more like he was trying to get in their good graces than actually sort them. It's also a case where Datisi and S_S are practically trying to rip each other's throats out, mastina at least suspects s_s, and Dann has just been kind of...there, and it feels like he's more trying to stay out of the fray with how he's been acting. Again, obviously I can't show you this stuff so I don't expect it to be convincing, but I think it's important that people know it's there. Do I actually think this game yeets Dann Day 1? Probably not, but he's probably the player I feel is most likely to be scum right now.

[catboi]

The Datisi one is at least more relevant in the fact that several people are scumreading Datisi so I could see town making that defense but the placement of it in the rest of his body of work still feels unnatural to me - it feels more broadly like he's positioning himself to be 'correct' on Datisi rather than doing anything else.

can you elaborate on this? what exactly is unnatural about it? why am I positioning myself to be "correct" on datisi vs someone like alisae. I feel like if that were the case I would've been largely defending datisi from the beginning?

those posts came about because I finished reading at 2 am and decide my time was best spent putting the reads I felt strongest about into words

Like, sigh, okay, you can say that. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't, I can't really tell. I just read that post and feel an inherent distrust for that read because of the effort proprtionate to it over hunting for scum. My feeling is that scum are

more

likely to make a big show about defending townreads? Because they particularly want credit for it and if they ever flip people are often going to go after level 0 associatives and yeet the person the scum was defending. By contrast I feel like scum are a lot

more

likely to be hesitant in their defenses of someone because they have imperfect information and are afraid of being wrong

I might have thought a little differently of it if Datisi seemed to be explicitly in danger but I don't really think he is even if a few people have been tunneling him.

it's true that I don't have any confident scum reads. my most confident is marashu and I feel mostly just ok about that.

KittyTacky I never town read

I was hesitant and am still hesitant about their wagon. they feel like the type of player that is going to get run up pretty easily no matter what, so I was surprised they were your most confident scum read

KittyTacky occupies a space of... I would not be surprised at all if they flipped scum and they are overtly scummy, but that I have a hard time telling whether that scumminess is just a facet of their personality or not. and so I feel there are bigger and better fish to fry

852 felt like a town read, or at least a defense, although you certainly didn't stick to it for long

[catboi]

I tend to think their catboi is a different playstyle and I dunno if they do it purposely or I just don't understand it but I think it slightly controls for the approach.

This is basically correct fwiw, I attempt to play differently on different alts. Nice of you to notice.

[catboi]

Catboi keeps asking questions that I don't believe he actually cares about the answer to. 606 is like a fun sounding rebuttal and looks surface-level curious but I don't think a townie actually looks at Mistyx's post and asks themselves that question. I think it's fairly obvious what Mistyx was trying to accomplish. I find still find his response to fireisredsir in 825 skeevy. I don't think you tend to talk to someone like that unless you know they are town. I think even if you are townreading that person, you still interrogate that process because that is the point I would consider maybe someone slipped up. Catboi claims he did interrogate fire but the tone and phrasing of the question, again, does not make me believe catboi is actually interested in an answer. I don't know what catboi hoped to gain from asking me if I felt Marashu was the best vote in 900. It feels like a good productive question but I feel a townie goes the extra step of realizing, hey, Dannflor is voting Marashu, what other answer is he going to give but "yes."

Now it feels like you're trying to nitpick me because it's really not hard to see what I mean by these, I don't think.

The thing about misty's question is that it looked pointlessly inflammatory to norwee - it didn't really look like a question aimed at sorting him in any sort of fashion, just trying to provoke an already upset target. That kid of thing often results in a townie flailing themselves into an elimination. Misty did give an explanation after but I'm not sure how much I buy it.

I don't know what I can tell you about the question to fire except that I did, in fact, want an answer? Like what the fuck am I supposed to say to that, lmao. I can get cheeky about not being out of my scum range as town from time to time. Don't know what to tell you. As scum I usually just shrug and move on at a bad townread.

The question about Marashu is because

I wanted to know why you were voting Marashu

. To that point You had given literally no elaboration on the Marashu read and it felt like you didn't really care about your vote.

The other major problem is that I feel like his pushes are inorganic. 352 looks like its designed to showcase that catboi is continually thinking about the game and rereading. I don't see a believable thorough line here as to why he went back to this post. My vision might be colored a little bit here because I've been nurturing the theory that catboi/Marashu is S/S for some time now, but it really reads to me like catboi made that push because he realized he hadn't interacted with Marashu well enough yet / his interactions with Marashu were bad. And again, I don't feel like catboi is looking for anything in particular from Marashu. He doesn't wait for a response before moving on. I don't think catboi got anything out of that.

Possibly this is happening because I

am

continually thinking about the game. When my brain gets in mafia mode it's hard for me to turn it off, and sometimes I'll have a thought about the game and want to go back and check it and when I do so I get new ideas from reading posts over again, because things aren't always apparent to me on my first reading.

What

actually happened

there was that I was starting to feel like my Ceph vote was stale, and not a good one because it was both unlikely to start a wagon or get anything useful out of Ceph, plus I felt less confident about him being scum then when I made a snap gut vote in RVS. And that Marashu post was made

in answer to a question I asked

and had only been made roughly an hour prior. My intial reaction to his answer was "eh, whatever", and then I went back and thought a little more about it and decided the response was unsatifactory.

The question is why the fuck would you expect a town thought process to have a "believable through line" to going back to a post? Do you believe everything a town player does should be neatly traceable? I could have spelled all this out in exacting detail going "hey you know what, I don't care for my ceph vote anymore and actually now that I've had time to think it over Marashu's answer to me is unsatisfactory" except I don't do that, literally no one does, because I don't need to lay out literally every thing that goes through my head.

It's borderline insulting that you believe I'm that bad at faking interactions that I'd feel obligated to make that vote to force an interaction with Marashu, as opposed to...I don't know, simply interacting with him. And if my goal was to

create an interaction with Marashu

, why do I then move on

without a response from Marashu

? The theory doesn't even hold up to its own internal logic. I really don't believe this is something you actually believe is true. As it stands, what happened was kittytacky made some posts I thought were bad, so I moved my vote to him instead of Marashu. It's not very complicated. I vote hop a fair bit on Day 1 and the idea that I'm obligated to keep my vote on Marashu until he responds to me is nonsense. (as it was, I kind of came to feel like I was forcing the case after a while)

My first reaction to the KittyTacky push was that I did not expect town!catboi to jump on KittyTacky so aggressively. I still don't think the case for KittyTacky scum is very strong. I realize this is contradictory as I wouldn't really be surprised if KittyTacky flipped scum. But my scum read there is more lazy than anything else. I don't feel passionate about it. I don't think there's really a good reason yet to feel passionate about it. I think KittyTacky's 583 is surface level scummy, but the hop onto the Norwee wagon would give me pause. I would expect "newbscum" to be a lot more self conscious about votes that don't have personal reasons attached. The underexplaining of the vote makes me reconsider. It feels like a very easy thing to jump on and I just... am surprised catboi felt more passionate about that than anything else in the game. I expect prodding at that or even voting it. I don't really expect the aggression catboi displayed. It feels like the exact type of thing I would jump on as scum because whew it's so easy and so obviously scummy.

My response to all of this is...so what? Like, agree to disagree I guess. You can call it surface level and obvious but sometimes those type of reads are just right. I'm not you, I don't think about the game the way you do. But to start off in a large game I'm going to probably push players like that that look 'easy' until they either towntell or I decide they're scummy and I want them dead.

I also am

very confused

as to why you're being critical of me feeling passionate about that read when you have no scumreads you're passionate about yourself? Like, I'm not making a banal hypocrisy attack here but I have no idea why you expect me to care more about *waves hands* something else, when you don't feel strongly about many reads yourself.

I feel like catboi has been the one holding our PT at arms length the most. I feel like I'm ripping this straight from catboi's post, but he feels so supremely "just there." He's been doing some mediation between Datisi and S_S which feels so unnecessary and LAMIST. The thread health of our neighborhood isn't a big enough issue, Datisi and S_S weren't even getting heated. It felt like doing catboi was doing something because he knew it looked towny not because he actually thought it was going to help the game. Like, I also thought their spat in our hood was making it very obvious they were both town, but I did not want to stop it because it felt very very revealing the more they got down into it. I also just think before then catboi has had a disturbing lack of reactions to anything happening in the hood. Mastina had a huge entrance. Datisi had a big emotional reaction at the start of the hood. Catboi has been deliberate in not giving early reads on either me or Datisi, and for some time I gave catboi the benefit of the doubt that he was just in information gathering phase. But I don't really get the sense that catboi has been like, genuinely responding to these events, even in a very delayed fashion.

Now, catboi is accusing me of the same thing which... I think is accurate to an extent. I have pretty deliberately been on observation mode so far this game. Partially for lack of time and partially because I haven't felt very confident on any scum reads yet. I don't get the sense that catboi is lacking either confidence in his pushes or that he's deliberately being more passive. For some reason his hood presence is just way less than his main thread presence.

The thing about holding the hood at arm's length is absolutly true. The thing is, I'm pretty sure I explicitly said as much in there. While the neighborhood is fun and all, I am not typically someone who talks a bunch in neighborhoods. I don't like them very much. This is verifiable fact for anyone who knows me.

In particular with this game, I believe that there is a

high likelihood

of scum being in your own neighborhood. To that end, I see basically no sense in having conversations in the neighborhood that are separate from the main thread because I am treating the hood as

innately compromised

. Having conversations in the hood that are not seen by the main thread just means there is a 100% chance your posts will be relayed to the scumteam while most of the game thread doesn't see them. I wouldn't say anything in the hood I wouldn't say in the main thread. (and yes, I know I softed my role in there).

(I've also been tremendously busy the past few days because I've had a deadline at work I've been crunching to meet and basically did not have the time to respond/interact in real time or in detail)

1) don't like the way catboi outed the read. the leadup to it > to outing it when I outed my scum read of catboi feels overly performative. catboi hasn't really trying to poke or prod me at all outside of me beginning interactions with him. that's not what I would expect from someone who has been nursing a genuine scum read on me for a majority of the game.

I mean, I did prod at you a little but I just really didn't have much to ask about, because you didn't do a lot that was interesting to me. It was your

lack

of content I found towny that was notable and when you don't get me much to work with I'm not going to be poking at things.

2) don't like the way catboi seems to not actually want me dead. continues to feel performative. I think if catboi genuinely scum read me to the strength he claims, he would campaign for my elimination. and he should. He is already undercutting himself by saying he doesn't think I will get eliminated D1. I have been eliminated D1 as scum before. I don't think catboi is someone to get hungup on player charisma or popularity or whatever. I think if catboi had a strong scum read on Datisi, he would do his best to make that elimination happen. I don't think it's any different for me. as such, this push feels more about discrediting me and looking town then actually either sorting me or trying to kill me

If I wanted to bury you I would absolutely be doing so. But the thing is I don't really like trying to strongarm games on Day 1 anymore because it's too much of a pain in the ass and I feel like the stuff that is convincing to me is rarely as convincing to everyone else. I can already feel people's brains turning off to this argument. I'm also not at a confidence level where I

want

to hijack the game because if I'm wrong then I'd feel shitty and the game would become miserable. If I thought you were lockscum I'd be absolutely trying to murder you but I don't think it's impossible I might be getting overaggressive here, but at the same time I read you writing all this stuff about me and my instinctual response to it is just "this is bullshit"

[catboi]

okay, I'm probably wrong

I'm sorry I feel like that was a waste of time

Let me know if there are any bits of that you would particularly like me to respond to catboi. I don't want to write another wall that makes the thread less fun.

I'm town. I'll show it eventually.

no it's fine this is probably a big waste of energy like I thought it would be

[catboi]

would you mind explaining your town read on mastina, catboi

I thought that her reads made sense for her mainly in the fact that I disagreed with her scumreads

[catboi]

that is not a read I would apply to any other player but for mastina I just find she thinks in ways that are completely orthogonal to what I think

I also thin from memoryk as scum she's more prone to just perpetually stay in catch up mode and fade into the background

[catboi]

idfk

i'm not going to claim to have a good track record of reading her

[catboi]

And if my goal was to create an interaction with Marashu, why do I then move on without a response from Marashu? The theory doesn't even hold up to its own internal logic. I really don't believe this is something you actually believe is true. As it stands, what happened was kittytacky made some posts I thought were bad, so I moved my vote to him instead of Marashu. It's not very complicated. I vote hop a fair bit on Day 1 and the idea that I'm obligated to keep my vote on Marashu until he responds to me is nonsense.

i mean this was more or less my thought process for why your moving your vote off marashu didn't make sense if you were s/s with him (you likely wouldn't have an awkward pivot onto a partner if you didn't actually want to commit and get anything out of voting there) and you told me that was bad process but ok

no it's fine this is probably a big waste of energy like I thought it would be

what did you mean by this

do you still scumread dann

i mean big wall wars literaly never resolve anything and no one pays attention to them

i stillthink dann is scummy but i'm not as confident in it as i was last night

[catboi]

the catboi/dann thing is interesting ig. it feels like they're both kinda puffing their chests up a lil bit, maybe just bc it's all very... cordial? it feels like there's a slight lack of. something. behind the posts, intensity or conviction maybe. some of it feels a bit like writing for the sake of writing rather than like, a true reflection of a passionate scumread of the heart

Could be theater

It has occurred to me that Alisae hasn't played in a full year and their approach this game doesn't really reflect that at all, which is pretty confusing to me. They're confident they can read Norwe better than anyone else, but Norwe has been playing an additional year of mafia while they haven't. It doesn't make sense to me, but I actually don't think it's scummy. Just weird.

What is the ideal of me that you have in ur head?
I don't really have anything else to go off of other than what I know.
I feel like what I see is clearly in line with what I know of town!Norwee. I remember Norwee as scum being pretty aggro but I don't know how that developed but I also know that however that did develop, that's probably not what I am dealing with here? Seems more likely he's just town that's the simpler conclusion to come to right now and I imagine Norwee will only get easier to read as time goes on so I am happy to leave it at that.

--

maybe ig, it just kinda feels like if it was theatre then it was clearly orchestrated and way planned in advance, since catboi had his "secret spicy scumread" for a while to build up to it, and it just kinda feels to me like they'd go at it a little more?

i don't really know what dann scum looks like tbh though

are you saying you think this looks like how dann does theatre? what's your read on the two of them

Why would they go at it more and waste their own posts when no one cares?
I'm not necessarily saying it is theater, I didn't read because it looked fucking obnoxious, and you know what, maybe that's obnoxiousness is intentional, maybe it's not, it's not easy to tell with that posting and asking me to find out I would rather bang my head against a wall while drooling
I remember liking Catboi and Dann seems fine but they're also good scum players so it's not like something like this can't be theater

I mean if you're not scumreadig us why would you bring up the possibility of it being theater?

[catboi]

I feel less like yeeting kittytacky after these most recent posts. They feel a little more substantial than his previous ones.

[catboi]

This, also is something tht is going to be hard to explain without getting into everything about his playstyle but in the simplest possible terms, he's involved and has actual thoughts about the game ad is trying to figure things out. By his own description his scum playstyle is "basically treading water". I realize he's consciously altering his playstyle this game because normally he never gives this many reads or is this proactive as either alignment but I lean toward believing it's real and town-motivated, because he's self-aware of how his own meta is perceived and is able to play into that as scum, and I think he'd be less likely to try a playstyle ateration as that alignment. There's also little things about who he's choosing to give reads on and the stuff he's saying about being paranoid of the people he likes solving with that rings very real to me.

this was about SS btw. I wanna know what posts gave you such impressions. can you be more specific about how you got there?

416 is actually probably more in terms of reads than I've ever seen from him as scum. The analysis in 473 feels very real for him as well. Stuff like 743 and 757, while entirely fakeable, shows him having a continuous stream of takes that he'd feel less obligation to make as scum, that's why it's a bit hard to point to a singular post from him because I think the overall body of work shows him continually trying to evaluate the game.

This is also

after

I posted my townread on him but he's been suspicious of Datisi in a way I feel is very genine and showing legitimate paranoia of Datisi's motivations.

[catboi]

I should note that that's a game from 3 yaers ago - in all his more recent scum games I've seen (holiday dance, PYP) he's played significantly more to what people expect of him by not giving many reads and basically treading water. (of course he still played better than me in pyp IMO, have to give credit where deserved). Might be that he's just more confident playing to an expected 'meta' now in games. I still think when he has some part of the game he actually really cares about it shines through pretty clearly.

[catboi]

T3 is certainly posting like T3

[catboi]

If marashu is scum then catboi's scum equity goes way up

...................why?

[catboi]

I don't have the brainspace to devote time to post properly to this game right now I'm sorry, in a day or so I should have more time, sorry



The Datisi wagon is bad, I actually feel reasonably confident he's town now

I would probably vote penguin atp

I thnk misty's posting in the last few pages has been good

[catboi]

does T3 tend to struggle as scum

bc they're kind of reminding me of myself when i sub in as scum

My memory of his play as scum was that it was not good but I've also misyeeted him literally every single game I've played against him when I was scum. From looking at his more recent games he doesn't seem to have trouble posting as scum

[catboi]

...................why?

iirc you were the first person to propose that 47 was towny

maybe I am improperly putting the blame on you for me just accepting that uncritically, but I did, and I know this has happened to me before where a comment like that has thrown me off of a scum for a while.

I'd quibble over this but it's not really worth it when marashu hasn't flipped yet (and is apparently clear?)

[catboi]

it's not impossible I was overly generous in my read of mastina but the push against her feels like it's borne more out of annoyance than, like, an actual case

[catboi]

it's not impossible I was overly generous in my read of mastina but the push against her feels like it's borne more out of annoyance than, like, an actual case

these posts are fucking bad man

why, because I dared to disagree with your scumread?

[catboi]

oh my bad

why are they bad

[catboi]

(more particularly, why are they

scummy

bad and not "i disagree with this" bad)

"she scumread me" is not a valid answer

[catboi]

who all do you think is scummy right now (outside of me) catboi

titus
ceph
penguin

[catboi]

Hi I am a mason.

@Mastina: are you a mason?

Obviously.

mastina do you not have multiple abilities

I have one ability.

Clans aren't an ability. Everyone has that. It's not a PR if everyone has it. Saying a neighborhood is an ability in a game where everyone has it, is basically like saying a Vanilla Townie with the power of their voice and vote, is an ability. It's literally something even a VT would have.

Being an apprentice aren't an ability. That's a restriction on the abilities. A gate.

I have only one ability. Gated by being an apprentice. But only the one.

So to clarify, you're rescinding your mason claim? I get it was probably a joke but I just want to be super clear on this.

she claims mason whenever she's in a neighborhood it's not a real claim

[catboi]

VOTE: penguin

[catboi]

scrdbr, Something_Smart, fireisredsir
Datisi, NorwegianboyEE, Bell
Charloux, Mistyx, Frozen Angel, Shiro?, Marashu?
KittyTacky, mastina, Alisae, Val89
T3
Dannflor, Titus, Cephrir, PenguinPower


I don't feel amazing about these reads given I haven't had time to read properly but I wanted to put the names in the player list in some kind of order. I don't feel strongly confident in any scumread right now but there are peole who have been less town than others.

I disiked alisae randomly suggesting dann and I could be theatering without seemingly actually suspecting either of us

T3 gets his own category because while his content so far is underwhelming I want to give him time

[catboi]

Dannflor, Titus, Cephrir, PenguinPower

Why all of these except Ceph.

I mean I put out a lot of words on Dannflor that you ignored. While I'm less confident on him being scum now I feel worried that him counter-casing me and then pulling back with an "oops may bad I think I'm wrong" when I pushed back at him was a move to get me to doubt my own read on him, because I've done moves like that as scum


Titus has done basically nothing memorable at all beyond claiming not being in a hood

I don't get the sense PenguinPower has real reads where usually I can see the spark behind his posting when he's town

[catboi]

There is almost nothing I want to commont on in the last few pages my brain is dead

big thing for me

think the fact that nobody seemingly cared about or questioned the fact that shiro was clearing marashu is weird

from scum's perspective that's two free lurker flips off the table so one would think that theyd be somewhat upset about it but everyone kind of just

moved without a second thought?

i also think scaredbear's response was pretty iffy so hm

I see basically no reason to discuss it right now

[catboi]

I have an important announcement.

Due to things that have come to light and

Unforeseen Circumstances

, we as the wind clan have come to a decision that we must act with quick haste.
In part of this decision, we will now attempt to back the following motion.

VOTE: T3

It gets better if you vote him before he shows any signs of life

why, though

his notes look bad but I always think his posts look bad

[catboi]

Something came up that I am being intentionally cagey about.
Because of said thing, we believe there is a priority to attempt to eliminate scum in our neighborhood, since we believe that there is 1 scum in hood and it is likely that me shiro val and norwee are just town. At least try to flashwagon him before T3 shows life.

I'm extremely not worried about T3 "showing life" and fooling everyone this game. I actually think he is harder to sort under pressure because as town he usually starts just making nonsense posts that make people want to kill him. I guess it being a POE read within the hood is acceptable reasoning though.

[catboi]

why is it scummy?

[catboi]

I'm not sure why seeing a null read wagoned is so bothersome

[catboi]

I have a headache but I'll get back to this game later today.

[catboi]

wow this day has really died huh

am I going to have to contemplate mastina's posts right now

[catboi]

Maybe if vanity votes realized the timeline and actually were productive with their vote but….

I assure you I'm aware of the timeline but I'm not in a rush

[catboi]

and now after checking I see that this behavior repeated by bell lets go over the votes:

VOTE: datisi?

VOTE: Mistyx

*stares gently at Datisi*
I’m not sorry.

VOTE: Mastina

Oh. I’m fine killing norwe if mastina is 97.5% certain they’re scum.
VOTE: Norwe

VOTE: Datisi

*FOS Mastina*

Nevermind. It fits. Nothing to be paranoid about there.

VOTE: T3

Sure.

Okay,
so
I'll be real here.

My meta on Mastina is basically:
Will Mastina have a meltdown?
Y: Scum.
N: Town.

They had a meltdown.

I'm fine with this. For the day.
VOTE: Mastina

Ah, I see what you're saying for plot reasons one kitty leaves the clan/is evil.
While Titus is the good rogue kitty that comes in to shore up the clan that had a loss/betrayal.
Makes sense from a plot point perspective.

...I forgot what Ydra said about this. *shrug* I'm sure someone will dig it up.

Why is this guy so easily convinced of everything? even stuff his suspects say?!

The vote movement is all over the place and chaotic and most votes had no context. he votes mastina and has fos on her throughout the day without explaining much about it yet instantly jumps on norwee when mastina says she is 97% sure norwee is scum. and then responds to alisae this:

I don’t understand Alisse well, but currently. I’m neutral to lean town on them, I think.
Their engagement style conflicts with what I think scum would do. But I can’t quite articulate why.

I am going to have to ask you to move your vote that is currently on Norwee. If you trust mastina's 97.5% read on Norwee, then you should be trusting me 100% tr on Norwee as the player who is probably the best player at the table at reading him, ESPECIALLY because I have a hood with him.

I don’t trust either of you tho.

but we trust mastina because?????????

I meant, I trust neither you nor Mastina. I dn't have to trust someone to vote with them.
Infact I almost never vote with someone because I trust them.

But if mastina was hard for why would you trust what they say in first place?

and then bell moves vote and plays on other heated players here and there without asking questions to sort them

and votes T3 cause asked by alisae without any questions out of nowhere just to jump back on mastina again?

I can't follow this mindset progress from a town perspective. It seems incredibly inconsistent in development

and there are these posts:

What if I’m scum? Then technically, I’m right.

@FrozenAngel: why aren’t you scum this game?

that are pretty bold joking and is a thing town would be way less comfortable saying in general. and the questions that have 0 value in evaluation (that's just an example he asked same kind of questions multiple times)

VOTE: bell

pedit: will respond to you in next post

Okay, I'm going to be real with you, I think a lot of the stuff you're scumreading Bell for is playstyle-indicative rather than scum-indicative, but if I didn't think that, a Bell wagon is just absolutely not happening with the time we have left. If you want a counterwagon to mastina I'm open to hearing options because I

also

feel like people are voting her more to being annoyed by her than actually finding her scummy but we need to be realistic here

[catboi]

Mastina having a meltdown isn't really the problem. It's that they are not changing their reads, not responding to a lot of very valid arguments that is questioning their conclusions, and then having a meltdown.
Which combined is so bleeping scummy.

my problem is a game just finished where she basically did exactly that as town sooooooo

[catboi]

Maybe if vanity votes realized the timeline and actually were productive with their vote but….

I assure you I'm aware of the timeline but I'm not in a rush

Okay? Then stop whining?

I wasn't whining?

[catboi]

Have you seen Ousama Ranking? That show is the bee's knees bro

I watched the first couple episodes and they were neat but my friend watched the whole thing and hated it so I haven't touched it

[catboi]

VOTE: kittytacky

I can go back here just because his last posts about the T3 wagon were more or less nonseensical

and looking back at this ISO it feels like he's faded into the background since the pressure on him went away

[catboi]

Are you talking about Datisi's cafe? Because I don't really think Mastina has played here how they played there.

elaborate for me then

[catboi]

I have basically not been thinking about this game at all because it pained me to do so but I am back now so let's go

why is it scummy?

Because T3 doesn't seem to be faking imo and just seems to be genuinely struggling with catching up.

Yes they are a null read but the wagon is still strange because I don't see a good reason for it.

Might as well disclose it since scum likely know by now.
Titus joined Wind Clan and I asked in wind clan if we could potentially flashwagon T3 since I townread everyone else in hood. This makes sense since we were talking about if there was scum in the hood and I thought if there was scum in our hood its probs just T3.
Norwee agreed with the idea so I went with it. I obvs couldn't get to check in with Val or Shiro about it since time was kind off of the essence. It was an idea worth trying because maybe if we did say eliminate T3 and flip him before he could tell scum that Titus joined Wind Clan, that would be a huge edge to have over scum. This is assuming he does flip scum ofc.

Ah. Well I think you're scum, this wagon is scum-motivated, and so T3 is more likely town unless it's a bus. :shrug:

I have a big issue with this and it's that the reasoning is essentially circular - alisae is scummy for wagoning T3, T3 is null but he's more likely to be town because alisae is wagoning him, there's no root reasoning for any of it. I thought alisae's reason for the vote was basically fine even if the declaration of "we gotta flashwagon T3" was weird

and as far as I can tell kittytacky has basically never, at any point, had a coherent reason for calling alisae scum?

"I think Alisae is pretty scummy too tbh." + some suggestion that alisae is chainsawing for norwee
"OMGUS"
"Charloux, Alisae, Marashu, Norwee varying degrees of scummy."
"Opportunism." (for voting him)
"Scummmmmmmmmm."
"How about you or your scumbuddy?"
"Aren't you supposed to be AFK?
*gives a thumbs down*
"The T3 flashwagon is so weird. I'd say it's +scum for Alisae but they are already rock bottom scummy along with Norwe, so."

Like, looking at this stuff...I don't get the sense kittytacky is actually trying to evaluate alisae's alignment at all, there's no case, no examination of posts, literally no substance to the read, he's just repeating alisae is scum ad nauseam without actually explaining why at any point. There's only so much you can fall back on "this is my playstyle" as a defense. Even less talkative players usually have some visible line of thought but I'm not really getting that at all with kittytacky, I can't tell where the scumread actually originated from and everything past that point has basically been accusing alisae of scum for pushing him. The stuff about T3 basically set off a flag for me because it's basically starting from the presumption alisae is scum and then painting everything they do as scummy. I'm just not seeing the substance here, at all.

[catboi]

pages leading up to the elim are basically useless to comment on

I still think norwee's response to mastina is more likely to be frustrated town more than aggro scum, but not impossible. Have to see how he resets after he doesn't have mastina deathtunneling him I guess

[catboi]

Willing to move my vote to mastina in the morning.

Don't think it's to our benefit to risk having the day end too early if someone fasthammers.

Dunno, I'm too drained to think right, but it feels like a risk anyway so I don't want to without clarity of mind.

This also feels really needlessly performative


Marashu - can you explain why you went from having mastina as town to being willing to vote her?

[catboi]

actually I'm just going to say it because I think holding it is very unlikely to be beneficial - I don't think shiro's claim of information on Marashu is real at all. I think it was probably some kind of gambit to see if scum would shoot marashu. But I think continuing to play along with it atp is antitown. I straight up do not believe it's at all likely based on what I've seen of this setup that Shiro would have any sort of information from his role that would tell him that.


I'm probably going to take a look at the mastina voters and their rationale later today when I'm off work and have time to properly deep dive.

[catboi]

would it be Bad and Wrong of me to think that the FA kill makes it more likely that one of the leaders is scum

I had basically the opposite thought to this - if you're all town I see 0 incentive for scum to not start killing you off whereas if one is scum they're narrowing themselves down via the NK. I basically think eliming a leader is -EV right now.

[catboi]

Titus

is town. Her posts show a pretty decent progression and a town motivation.

2. Sure. Datisi is strongly town as I think only town would push this hard on someone. There's a genuine conviction there. Scum would be a bit or a lot more cautious pushing a townie. Titus is town. Her posts show a pretty decent progression and a town motivation. Bell and fireisred too for the same reason, the latter I have doubts on though. SCRRRD is pretty obvtown for me from the motivation I see behind their posts, looking past the aggressive post gimmick.

where is the decent progression and town motivation from titus?

what has impressed you from fire? i'm still waiting for him to excite me

1. The stuff early D1 pinged town for me on an ISO read, and

I am not a beacon of obvtown, but do not consider giving me warrior powers until I say I'm eligible. This is not a fakeout.

seems very town-motivated.

2. I liked the exchange around the late 700s. Sent town vibes.

snip

I'm sorry look at this - kittytacky describes titus in the absolute most generic terms possible, and then when questioned on it by ceph gives a nonanswer about "their stuff early on Day 1" without citing anything. He claims to like her "progression" but never says on

what

. Then he pulls up literally one of the most recent posts she made for the argument. I don't believe this is a real read from someone who is trying to solve the game, at all.

(relatedly, kind of like that ceph is asking these questions)

[catboi]

Not just for wagoning T3, also for pushing me with a very fluffy reasoning, like she just jumped on a forming LHF wagon.

(don't embed replies in quotes it's goddamn unreadable)

so let's pull alisae's quotes to see if that reasoning for voting you is actually "fluffy", as you say it is:

Spoiler:

I'm struggling to adapt to this post restriction.

I'm legit trying but it's hard. I also never played a large theme before.

So like, are you just lying?
Because I don't believe you considering at a cursory look at your games where you don't even break past 200 posts in COMPLETED GAMES and we're only in d1.. Like, there are players in here that post way way more but you're the one that's struggling??? Like, 200 is such a lenient post cap I don't see how anyone can struggle as long as they show some restraint and like, actually post with purpose.

But with me, you gotta look at the motivation behind my posts.

So...you're scum? If I look at what you post and what I think your motivation could be, the first thing I think is that your Norwee vote is comes from scum who is either working with mastina or hiding behind her which is something that would realistically make sense in a gamestate where town!norwee is true, which to me, it is?

1. It's a psychological effect.
2. Normally I do a lot of stream-of-consciousness posting that takes up a lot of posts, I can assure you I'd have made like 100+ posts if I played like I usually do.

Ok but like, what you're saying, and what is like, happening, is like, completely opposite of each other and actions say more about a person than what they say so...

--

Why is this your first conclusion instead of me just... sheeping a case that makes sense to me?

Trying to eliminate someone vulnerable pushing your scumbuddy?

Because I'm town and Norwee is also town???
How are these questions real things being asked??? You think you are sheeping something that makes sense and I think you are using that to justify hiding behind mastina.

1. It's a psychological effect.
2. Normally I do a lot of stream-of-consciousness posting that takes up a lot of posts, I can assure you I'd have made like 100+ posts if I played like I usually do.

Ok but like, what you're saying, and what is like, happening, is like, completely opposite of each other and actions say more about a person than what they say so...

--

Why is this your first conclusion instead of me just... sheeping a case that makes sense to me?

Trying to eliminate someone vulnerable pushing your scumbuddy?

Because I'm town and Norwee is also town???
How are these questions real things being asked??? You think you are sheeping something that makes sense and I think you are using that to justify hiding behind mastina.

1. How? I explained why I feel the post restriction stifles me a bit, even if it's mostly a mental pressure thing.
2. Explain why you think Norwee is town.

lmao ok I’m done talking to you goodbye
VOTE: kittyTacky

Ok but like, what you're saying, and what is like, happening, is like, completely opposite of each other and actions say more about a person than what they say so...

wouldn't that make him town then? or why would he pretend to be overly worried about the post cap as scum?

the postcap here is 200. i don't really think any town here should be genuinely worried about it rn if they put any actual thought into it (unless they are a huge spam poster which we don't really have any of here), which is what makes it feel kinda faked concern

I am feeling the same thing he is talking about. I make a lot of borderline useless posts. Even though I doubt I'll hit the cap, I still feel bad making those posts. It is, indeed, a psychological thing.

Kitty sounds fake you sound genuine don't ask me why. I don't particularly care about your argument and that line I think is reflective of Kitty up that point in general not just that 1 individual point. Like he says he's town and to read his motivations but when I do that I just see scum and it feels like his words do not match his actions.

This looks...basically fine? I think alisae's main points against you are that:

1. your claimed excuse for being inactive early day 1 doesn't make much sense because there's no reason to believe your usual output in games would be at risk of getting postcapped.
2. your vote on norwee looked like an opportunistic scum one (something I also agreed with)

And after that, okay they get fed up with you and just start mudslinging but I can actually feel this looks like a real thought where you just seem to be calling alisae scum because you're pushing you, which is basically the level 0 move for caught scum. I don't think these reasons are actually as weak as you're trying to describe them as and you come off as significantly worse in this argument.

[catboi]

btw, you wanna hear how you do cancel culture right?

There's this misconception about cancel culture that to cancel someone you start personally attacking them.
That doesn't make a whole lot of sense cause that's just being a shitty person.

Here is what you do.
Take who you wanna cancel, so KittyTacky in this case, and you do not engage with him. You do not interact with his posts. You do not engage about the topic other than telling people that you're not engaging with it and these are the reason's that you shouldn't engage with it.

Because this is the person that wrote this post.

VOTE: Kitty
Norwee abandon ship

Opportunism. Scum.

There is no talking to this person.
Talking to this person in main thread means you are wasting yours posts.
I MEAN JUST LOOK AT THIS

I called it. I fucking called it. Now let's catpile Norwe.

VOTE: Norwegian

This person is not worth your posts. He is only worth your vote.

ik this seems like not an entirely serious post but i still don't really like the approach, kitty seems like someone who is more sortable by talking to them and trying to get them engaged in the game

in their past scum games they usually struggled to respond to pushes on them and questioning of them consistently. they've already done more here in that respect than they ever have before

idk what the point of not engaging with them would be. if you think that everything they post is obvscum then what's wrong with people trying to talk to them and having them post more

When you say you don't like it, do you mean in a "I disagree with this being a good way to play the game" sense or a "I think this is scummy" sense?

[catboi]

I think Datisi's avatar is making his posts look scummier to me

[catboi]

my only vibe from Titus previously was "disengaged" but I don't think that's AI

DAMN THAT'S TOO BAD BECAUSE I WAS SCUM READING THEM FOR IT.

ive correctly townread titus for this in the past tbh and i kind of was early in this game. idk if its like a strong towntell or anything but i kind of think it's a lean at least

some of the more recent posting sketched me out a bit more tho

fwiw I have absolutely seen Titus play a diengaged, unmotivated scumgame, motivation level for her is not alignment indicative

VOTE: misty

Explain this vote? I thought her posting was good overall

[catboi]

et tu, brute?

goddammit i know this avatar makes me look scummy but i didn't want to be the one to say it lmfao

i could have had some bitchin anime cat fanart avatar but ydrasse had to give me this IT'S HER FAULT

[catboi]

I really don’t care about the meta of some troll if that’s how u sort them good for u.

Other people can do whatever the fuck they want, I just think that engaging with the slot to me is a waste of posts. I mean I think the guy posts like an open wolf npc but I mean maybe more people need more time to reach that conclusion? I’m just saying why I’m not engaging with it, and you shouldn’t either it’s not worth ur posts.

i don't think they're actually a troll,

they just often get eliminated.

and there's a difference between saying that you're not going to engage with the posts anymore and encouraging other people not to. that's the part i don't really get. i get it in situations where the person is like spamming or just being a nuisance or whatever, but i don't really feel like that applies here?

idk maybe im just sensitive to the sentiment he gave of getting discouraged by feeling like people are ignoring him when he tries to get more engaged, so then seeing you basically telling everyone to ignore him is like... feels like targeted towards shutting down any chance of him showing himself as town if he is

So, like, mind telling me where you got the bolded from? Because I went though his games and I had to go back to March of 2021 to find a game where he was mis-eliminated as town and since then he's had 7 straight where he's either NKed or endgames. The times he frequently gets eliminated are...when he's scum.

[catboi]

my previous standards for her scumplay (based on ktane) were way too low of a bar

the MU people keep telling me she is in fact a good wolf but I have not yet seen it

[catboi]

you're catboi and not some noob rando with a crappy cat avatar

cue 3 separate posts in the spectator PT going "but those are the same thing!!"

[catboi]

catboi, how serious are you in saying my posts are scummier to you, and if any amount serious - why and how can i help you

maybe i'm confbiasing but seeing catboi actually lay out things that i was vaguely feeling were wrong with kitty's posting is like, nice

that was mostly a tongue in cheek sentiment but I did realize I was feeling that way about your posts on some page I was catching up then realized I didn't have anything I could actually rationally point to

[catboi]

So, like, mind telling me where you got the bolded from? Because I went though his games and I had to go back to March of 2021 to find a game where he was mis-eliminated as town and since then he's had 7 straight where he's either NKed or endgames. The times he frequently gets eliminated are...when he's scum.

i was actually surprised how little he got eliminated when i looked, you're right

what i (and i think alisae) was referring to tho was a comment where i think he called himself limbait or something. so even if he doesn't actually get eliminated he still is like regularly in that pool of people who are suspected

but true my bad, that is not strictly correct, i think the sentiment is tho

okay so that's kind of a weird response because I'm not sure what "the sentiment is correct" is supposed to mean? like if he does not get miseliminated often as town it does not happen. we're arguing facts not feelings here.


and I had this really dumb theory forming in my head that kittytacky told the scum PT "I suck I always get eliminated" and fire just came in assuming kittytacky meant as

both

alignments when that is not actually true

and this whole argument by fire is him trying to divert pressure off kittytacky because he's usually pretty averse to bussing but he didn't bother to actually fact check like he would as town

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

i voted kitty because i thought scum gameplan coming into today would be to try to push mastina's legacy to get miselims over and kitty's post was like, word for word what i was expecting, and felt inconsistent with what a townie in that position would think

with the T3 flash happening in the way it did im not convinced thats true anymore

feel like theres a lot of energy being expended in the same places it was yesterday and im not sure how to feel about that

@catboi do you have anything updated about dann to talk about?

not really

well I guess I do have something updated in that I'm not really sure he's scum anymore

In that I don't see why scum-him helps lead an elim on mastina when she's a free pocket for him, and also because him shooting frozen angel if he's a scum leader feels like shooting himself in the foot

and I also just...started to feel like I wasn't right, I don't know how to explain that, I didn't want to let go of the read for stubborn baby reasons at first but over the night phase I realized I was being overreactive to his posts

[catboi]

my previous standards for her scumplay (based on ktane) were way too low of a bar

the MU people keep telling me she is in fact a good wolf but I have not yet seen it

Game 1 Thread 1
Game 1 Thread 2
(can link thread 3 if needed but i was dead by that point, also i was playing on the rue account)

Game 2 Thread 1
Game 2 Thread 2

(pretty sure these all lead to the bottom of the threads but just click the title at the top and it should take you to the top)

think these are my best recent performances

i've been sitting on these all game since i didnt think they were particularly relevant but they kinda are now and i wanna brag so

well I wasn't planning on doing homework tonight but...

let me ask you: if I read your posts in those games and then read your ISO in this game do you think I'll be able to see a difference?

[catboi]

idk its just not really relevant to the point? i was talking with alisae when she called him a troll bc he made a comment somewhere that he ruins games. and i was saying that he made that comment bc he views himself as limbait and often gets pushed, not because he is actively trying to troll. like the point is the same whether he gets eliminated or not, and it also wasn't a point that has anything to do with his alignment in this game, it was a point about whether he deserves to be ignored or not. this isn't a gotcha lol

and i mean i did look at his games earlier when i was checking postcounts i feel like thats p verifiable

and when i looked again later i did focus more on looking at his scumgames to see how he responded to pressure in them so maybe that made me forget how often he actually gets elimmed

im also probably more likely to fact check as scum tbh, as town i know that it isn't relevant to the point im making so i don't care

I guess I get that it's inessential to your main argument about kittytacky's posting style and how alisae responded to it but it's still a

weird

point to bring up in his defense. I dunno what else to say about it, "not a troll but limbait" is an argument that can definitely be made for some players but it feels liker a stock argument that's more likely to be made if you're not really investigating kittytacky's play. I guess you can fall back on the self-perception argument but that's A. unfalsifiable and B. I see literally no reason he should actually believe he's limbait as town??

I wanna comment on the alisae stuff but I still need to catch up to the argument with Marashu you referenced before I do

[catboi]

im only saying that bc im p sure he has said it about himself as town before

i can go look and try to find the comment later if you want me to

and my point is it wasn't in his defense. you're treating it like a defense. the point didn't have anything to do with his alignment in this game

also are you saying you disagree with the characterization of "not a troll, but limbait" bc i find that kinda hard to believe

yeah sure you know what, show it to me. again my point is not that the characterization in and of itself is unbelievable, it's that you making that defense reflexively feels unearned. although I guess "not a troll" isn't a hard defense to make

IDK, I might be focusing way too much on that one particular clause about him getting eliminated often and this is super pointless, it stood out to me in the moment but now I feel stupid talking about it


and are you not defending kittytacky? it read to me like you were defending him given you were critical of alisae's handling of him

[catboi]

I completely forgot where I was last reading the game thread this was dumb of me to get into lmao

[catboi]

Please ask me questions because I’m also having trouble formulating my thoughts.

How about: why are you scumreading the players you're scumreading?

[catboi]

Been busy with other shit let me get back to things here

[catboi]

Hey val, do you mind explaining for me why you voted mastina on Day 1?

[catboi]

CATBOI DO YOU KNOW THE PROBABILITY THAT BOTH T3 AND KITTY ARE TOWN?

Like, mathematically or by my own estimation?

Anything's

possible

but I wouldn't guess that it's

likely

.

[catboi]

Don't worry folks, we have over 7 days to the deadline, that's enough time for T3 to actually explain his reads on...*counting on fingers* 16 players!

[catboi]

In all seriousness, I think the confidence with which people are calling T3 scum is overblown, I think he is basically =rand right now. I'd still be fine policy yeeting him out of the game if he's going to literally not play it but I also would be entirely unsurprised if he flipped green. Shrug.

[catboi]

Don't worry folks, we have over 7 days to the deadline, that's enough time for T3 to actually explain his reads on...*counting on fingers* 16 players!

holy shit, how many fingers do you have

I use a very complicated system

[catboi]

Other than that, there's not much I actually want to comment on...I still need to actually read this PP/Titus argument that I haven't gotten the opportunity to. I don't have any actual thoughts on the info from fire right now. Not much else is even being discussed.

[catboi]

Hey val, do you mind explaining for me why you voted mastina on Day 1?

I got the distinct impression she was ignoring what I was saying about Alisae and Norwee being unpartnered, despite trying to engage her on the issue several times, and I was being told that was meta for scum!Mastina; and matched what I remember about the only experience I have with scum!mastina in Control.

Perhaps I fucked up by not checking that out in more detail, but I wanted an answer as to why she was disregarding evidence that didn't fit her mental model, and the most likely answer I could see was that she was scum and had a specific agenda to push, and I was small-fry enough she could just disregard and think I would not be threat.

I know "I thought she was flipping scum" is a bit of an unsatisfying answer, but that's basically what it boils down to.

o...kay. I still feel like that's a really puzzling shift given your suspicion of Alisae unless you thought they were lolbussing each other (which admittedly is not an impossible thought). I was mainly struck by your progression when I was going back to look at mastina voters and found it hard to make sense of.

[catboi]

In all seriousness, I think the confidence with which people are calling T3 scum is overblown, I think he is basically =rand right now. I'd still be fine policy yeeting him out of the game if he's going to literally not play it but I also would be entirely unsurprised if he flipped green. Shrug.

who specifically would you say has overblown confidence

I went back to actually look at the votes on T3 in detail and it was funny to me because most of them aren't actually expressing a strong level of confidence, just that he's potentially scum. I was mainly thinking of misty going "this can die" and scrdbear going after t3. you also seem decently confident from what I'm seeing.

Actually the people who are the most confident on T3 being scum probably have the least amount of experience with him so that tracks.

It still feels kind of weird that his wagon is that big this early in the day? Especially when the reasoning doesn't strike me as especially strong. But it might just be a repeat of Ircher.

[catboi]

this sounds... weird? why are they fosing him for that?

I have no idea, and I've not been able to get a decent answer.

It started because Alisae said they suspected Dann and Catboi were partnered, and they fos catboi. I asked why they fos'd catboi independently and was told it was because they feel like catboi is scum for pushing kitty if kitty turns out to be town. I've not really been able to get to the bottom of where that feeling comes from - I've tried a few times but got various answers (lightly paraphrasing: makes sense for catboi to push KT if catboi is scum, I think catboi has a scum agenda in pushing KT) that seem to me to be variations on 'gut', which doesn't make sense to me from someone who is apparently also scumreading KT.

To be fair, Alisae also pointed out that catboi hasn't really pushed or interacted with any of Cephrir or PP who were listed as bottom scum reads in 1454, which I haven't checked yet to see if that is true, but if it is could well be a valid reason for scumreading catboi - I just don't know why "they are pushing KT" was the first answer I got to the question of why Catboi?

which doesn't make sense to me from someone who is apparently also scumreading KT.

???????????????????????

Alisae is there a reason you're saying this shit in the PT and not to my face?? Why does it need to be said in a backchannel rather than actually addressing my arguments where I'm making them? Why would Kitty being town make me scum?

[catboi]

- fwiw, I think his reactions to me trying to cancel him and get people to just not engage with him, honestly, I buy it, I think it's genuine and doesn't come from a wolf.
- I also buy that one post he also made where all of the normal q players have meta on him but no one else here does. That seems more real than him saying he is anxious about going over post cap.

- So what's probably more likely is wolves are jumping to KT like dogs to a bone.
Way more people suspect KT than Norwee and I mean, just look at his posts.
Guy plays like newbtown.
Listening to him explain his reads makes me think he doesn't understand the game at all. This is why I've been saying that his reads are actually just below random. The way he talks about his reads, how he got them, and like, why, is just incredibly weak and makes me think he would actually just be better off RNGing his vote.

None of this is particularly convincing to me, it's just multiple variations on "he seems real" when I've had very specific issues with his posts that I've brought up and you haven't really bothered addressing. I don't buy that the emotionality is something that's unlikely to be faked in this instance.

And how did you go from thinking his posts were basically scum trolling to this? I don't get what flipped you around.

[catboi]

ya bro u mad

Dear Ali, you still ain't called or wrote, I hope you have a chance
I ain't mad - I just think it's fucked up you don't answer fans


but on a more serious note if you think my points against kittytacky are bad then actually say so to my face? Because otherwise it looks like you're just letting me go off on kittytacky while shit talking me to your clan

[catboi]

In all seriousness, I think the confidence with which people are calling T3 scum is overblown, I think he is basically =rand right now. I'd still be fine policy yeeting him out of the game if he's going to literally not play it but I also would be entirely unsurprised if he flipped green. Shrug.

Nah I feel coughing up a weird and mostly unexplained list after catching up for so long is scummy and not =rand.

This is a player specific statement FWIW. Like, yes, I think what he's doing is basically awful and completely unhelpful if he's town.

But in my experience T3 basically almost never explains any reads he has as town and when he does his justification is usually "it's just vibes" or something similarly empty. This happens basically no matter how much you prod him. He gets yeeted for it a lot, regardless of his alignment. Somehow this has not motivated him to stp doing this. If it were a completely unknown player I'd agree it's scummy in a vacuum. I'm just saying my expectations for T3 are not very high.

[catboi]

okay, this is going to be a lot to deal with, I apologize in advance

Because otherwise it looks like you're just letting me go off on kittytacky while shit talking me to your clan

I mean...Ya...I've been limiting my engagement with the thread ever since I voted T3, only really engaging with Datisi since that was something I started and only when I felt like I have something to add to thread.

Are you saying like I'm not allowed to observe you doing your thing? I have been for the most part radio silent when it comes to putting out content since I finished my engagements with Datisi. Am I not allowed to take a step back and remove myself from the game? Do I have to post about it like Norwee did to let everyone know that this is something I'm doing? I don't get why you think I have to immediately engage you just because I think you could be a wolf.

And you want to know what I see?
What I see is you making the extra effort to try to push a person I think is probably going to flip town in response to big T3 wagon.
I also see you trying to discredit anyone who claims to have a strong read on T3.

I mean, no, you're not obligated to engage with me. But if you believe I'm scum trying to push a counterwagon, I have no idea why you wouldn't be trying to shut that down here? Like, that feels like something I would consider

worthy

of addressing in-thread, in my opinion.

Your narrative is nonsense, of course, because people were trying to push kitty in the beginning part of the day, I had been voting kittytacky yesterday, I vocalized that suspicion of him early in the day before I'd even seen there was a wagon on T3. And if I'm supposed to be countering that I'm doing a poor job since I have

literally said

I don't care if people flip T3, I'm not standing in the way of that wagon at all.

In fact, me writing this out made me ISO you ant ctrl + f T3 and I see you're first read on him lmfao im ded
guy gets his own category
says needs to give player more time
Heck honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see T3 flip wolf and you be aligned with him given your very first read on T3. That's the kind of read I give my wolf buddies who need time to become players but then never eventually play. Put him in wolf pool, fos him, never vote him. It's a fucking tale as old as time.

And this is just disingenuous as fuck??? like, at the time of that list I'm pretty sure T3 had 5 posts or something, of fucking course he's null because he had no alignment indicative content. Trying to suggest I'm scum with him because I wasn't scumreading him off of nothing is bullshit and you should know better than this.

I wouldn't even say my read on T3 is strong just PoE since it doesn't make any sense for anyone else to be a wolf in wind clan unless it's like Val or something and I'm not buying that.

And again this confidence is weird to me because...I can easily see Val being scum given his vote for mastina was pretty bad, and shiro has hardly done anything, at all, so I don't exactly think everyone else in your hood is super townie or anything, unless your justification is that they've done more in the PT than the main thread this is weird to me.

I also don't get this thing where I have to apparently "read your posts" to have a fos on you.
Like you can say whatever the fuck you want, I'm not going to find you if you're scum because of the things you say.
I am going to find you based on your actions and reads because that's way more worthwhile than the nitty gritty small details of your posts.

I...what? I'm saying it feels like you

are not actually reading what I am saying

because you haven't actually given any counterargument to my KT read, just called him town for ???reasons. But also the idea you don't need to read the posts of someone in a mafia game is fucking baffling? Like I don't remember you playing like this at all?

- fwiw, I think his reactions to me trying to cancel him and get people to just not engage with him, honestly, I buy it, I think it's genuine and doesn't come from a wolf.
- I also buy that one post he also made where all of the normal q players have meta on him but no one else here does. That seems more real than him saying he is anxious about going over post cap.

- So what's probably more likely is wolves are jumping to KT like dogs to a bone.
Way more people suspect KT than Norwee and I mean, just look at his posts.
Guy plays like newbtown.
Listening to him explain his reads makes me think he doesn't understand the game at all. This is why I've been saying that his reads are actually just below random. The way he talks about his reads, how he got them, and like, why, is just incredibly weak and makes me think he would actually just be better off RNGing his vote.

None of this is particularly convincing to me, it's just multiple variations on "he seems real" when I've had very specific issues with his posts that I've brought up and you haven't really bothered addressing. I don't buy that the emotionality is something that's unlikely to be faked in this instance.

And how did you go from thinking his posts were basically scum trolling to this? I don't get what flipped you around.

I mean you decided to remove the bit that REALLY gave me pause. Ya know, the bit about how I think all of the people who voted Norwee D1 are probably town and how literally 3 players, mastina, SS, and Kitty, never moved their vote at all during the course of the day? That's the kind of stuff that REALLY made me reconsider along with the other more weaker points and I mentioned this (just the voting stuff) to Titus and she told me to take a step away from the player SO THATS WHAT I DID.

How do I go from this guy is scum trolling/openwolfing to this??? I mean who fucking wouldn't when they get told to reconsider and the nature of the read and the player??? You think I can't at all consider the too wolfy to be a wolf angle and that I should just be locked into this read all day??? That sounds like something scum!Ali would do honestly.

[/quote]I removed the bit about norwee voters being town because as best as I can tell it's completely arbitrary and I have no idea why you believe that or why I should believe that? It just seems like you made that assumption at random?

And like, okay, I get that you were told to reconsider the read I'm just really not understanding what prompted the change at all

[catboi]

Vote someone btw.

[catboi]

so

I actually think 2471

might

be townie

something about the way KT is talking about himself in this post feels genuine to me, the stuff like "At least I'm trying" and "Maybe you're right and I actually am an idiot" feels genuine to me, those feelings of like, selfdoubt etc when it comes in relation to how he's reading the game feels more like it comes from a real town perspective

Like, not really impossible to fake but for a player at KT's experience level it

does

feel authentic

[catboi]

Mine, also that response by catboi sucked.

the meme or the response to alisae

[catboi]

Alisae, dw i think you’re very funny.

sorry but I think trying to tie me to T3 preflip is really fucking disingenuous? Alisae says all this shit about how I'm trying to save T3 and I'm probably teamed with him and then they say they aren't even strongly scumreading T3? That just seems kind of obviously contradictory

[catboi]

Oh goddamnit, now you’re shaking cephrir who i’m sheeping.
Can’t you just pretend you’re confident.

i am a quivering pile of jello

[catboi]

I'm going to be honest here I got to the alisae/datisi shitfight and I just flat out do not feel like reading most of it

[catboi]

What was the point of the last 5-ish pages, it's just running in circles.
I'm waiting on Shiro to come back from V/LA, T3 to post some reads.

If we need info we should flip Alisae, she is the eye of the storm of a lot of stuff that happened this game.

Kitty is still scummy, but his posting is consistent which i find harder to do as scum. He also never had a "moment of clarity" so can't call him faking it either.

Anything specific that needs commenting on?

Excuse me? Aren't you voting with alisae right now? What?

And what about kitty's posting is "consistent"? That word doesn't really mean anything to me by itself.

[catboi]

So chances of at least one of them being clean are actually quite good

it's about 72% without accounting for titus

also: i feel like maybe titus' role is scummy? the fact that the hoods don't list occupants means she could have pretended to just be alone and used it to spy

but idk maybe that is overly obvious game design

and i can think of a (deeply, deeply niche) town use for that ability too

obv this turns out to be incorrect but I like the fact that ceph's mind went there in the first place

[catboi]

UNVOTE:

?

[catboi]

okay I'm basically caught up

I have cold feet on kittytacky now but I also trust the players voting him significantly more than I do the ones on T3

[catboi]

okay I'm basically caught up

I have cold feet on kittytacky now but I also trust the players voting him significantly more than I do the ones on T3

this post is giving me anxiety

do you still support those wagons? who do you want if not them?

No I'm not really happy with them which is basically how I felt when mastina was the lone runaway wagon Day 1

If you made me king I'd probably run up alisae because the way they're handling the T3 wagon feels off. More realistically I'd want Titus for wagons people would actually support. That one Charloux post I quoted was pretty awful. Marashu is another one I'd do.

[catboi]

lollin at the moment I say I'm having doubts on kittytacky bear starts calling me scum

[catboi]

hey T3 what do you hope to accomplish by playing this way

Wdym?

like

you're getting wagoned but you don't seem to care

you aren't really pushing anything

it seems like you're just posting to post

I’m posting because I’m trying to gauge reads and not get limmed.

are you ever going to actually explain your scumreads?

[catboi]

lollin at the moment I say I'm having doubts on kittytacky bear starts calling me scum

a big thing for me on this slot is that he started pushing marashu after marashu made a post about how they weren't confident on bear being town

and also did something kinda similar to me

and idk how i feel about it it feels powerwolfy but also bold to do as scum

I don't actually think it's scum-indicative ftr, just petty because I'm not falling in line with his wagon

[catboi]

fuck it

VOTE: alisae

[catboi]

Hmm i want to push Alisae but i also don't want to leave the T3 wagon empty handed. Decisions decisions...
VOTE: Alisae

why do you want to push T3 when alisae is one of the people driving the T3 wagon

why do you even want to push alisae in the first place?

[catboi]

Because T3 is objectively scummy while Alisae is objectively most informative.
Comparing these two i'd bet my money on T3 flipping scum, but Alisae is a great source of information while also being a great potential scum slot.
T3 flip on the other hand gives us... what exactly?

What is alisae's flip supposed to be "informative" about, exactly?

and why would you not want to flip the player who you would "bet your money" on flipping scum? Isn't a player flipping scum the most informative thing possible?

[catboi]

Also, I can’t recall if it’s in the rules. But no betting in game amongst players.

I mean that's obviously being used as a figure of speech

[catboi]

VOTE: charloux

[catboi]

Every time my feet start getting cold KT posts again and I remember why my vote feels so comfy.

There are a lot of players I'd like to vote for tho.

Pedit we are not voting charloux stop it.

I too enjoy not voting players who make horrible posts

[catboi]

That's assuming i have complete confidence in my reads and T3 will flip scum without a doubt. What information does a T3 flip bring us then?

you literally said you'd bet money on him flipping scum and now you're not confident enough to vote him?

Alisae has a lower chance of flipping scum than T3 imo, but it's still a considerate rate.

And if you read the game you would know how much stuff she put herself head first into.

Why do you think that won't bring us any information?

What does this even mean - you say "alisae has been at the center of a lot of stuff" but that does not tell me why he's supposed to be scum. It makes quite literally no sense at all. Don't turn the qusetion back on me - what "information" are you getting out of flipping alisae?

Are you going to push for a kitty execution tomorrow if T3 flips town? Who next then, Shiro's slot maybe?

What the fuck are you talking about? I'm not pushing

either

of those slots right now

[catboi]

i feel similarly to charloux here so i don't really get what catboi thinks is so bad about the post

you feel similarly to that dogshit word salad explanation?

[catboi]

i think in general, especially lately, their pushes have felt like they're more motivated by agenda than stemming from anything natural

elaborate on this?

[catboi]

Comparing these two i'd bet my money on T3 flipping scum

Yes i look really certain in my reads.
Won't bother telling you concrete stuff just because you are too lazy to read her ISO. From the top of my head Van, Norwegian, Dann, T3 are all tied to Alisae one way or another.

That looks like you are expressing certainty, yes

people generaly don't bet money on things they are not confident in


why do I have to fucking read alisae's ISO to understand

your

read - you literally haven't given a coherent explanation. I was scumreading alisae for my own reasons, but I thought your stance on her loojed horrendously scummy and made no sense, so I'm questioning you on it. What does alisae's flip tell you about those players' alignment, exactly?

[catboi]

i feel similarly to charloux here so i don't really get what catboi thinks is so bad about the post

you feel similarly to that dogshit word salad explanation?

yes

i think t3 is scummy but he feels kinda like, isolated. it doesn't feel like anyone is really on his side even if he's scum. if he flips scum it feels like the kind of flip where scum are fine with that happening

whereas alisae if scum feels like she's hard pushing scum agenda, has a lot of pushes that just vibe weird and could be looked at further to see what her goals might have been, that kind of stuff

so a scum alisae flip i think gives us a lot more info than a scum t3 flip. usually i kinda prefer to flip the lower content players bc they give us less to work with but in this case i think alisae kinda has been contributing to making the thread vibes unpleasant so i don't think it's really a bad thing either way

alisae if scum is more dangerous than T3 but that's not what charloux is arguing

he's arguing that somehow he is most confident in t3 being scum but alisae is "informatve" and if you haven't learned the words "info yeet" are a massive red flag I don't know what to tell you

he can't actually justify the read of why alisae is actually likely to be scum it just seems to have materialized from nowhere??

[catboi]

i think in general, especially lately, their pushes have felt like they're more motivated by agenda than stemming from anything natural

elaborate on this?

can't really iso dive rn, i can do it later, but one aspect of it was the way their read on kitty flipped and it felt like the reads they were expressing in hood (based on what val said, at least) were different than the reads they were expressing in thread felt like... positional. like they were angling for things rather than expressing natural thought

and i also don't like the way they've tried to shut down people from posting or people engaging with them, i don't think that feels town motivated, bc its not like scum!kitty or scum!bear are gonna charisma-post their way into getting townread by everyone. so them posting and engaging more is likely to be a positive thing for everyone's ability to read them

I don't think shuttign people down and getting emotional/being negative is a scumtell

I'm more likely to do it as town if anything

the stuff about the reads being positional is at least far and kind of similar to what I was hinking


But this also isn't really what charlox has been saying at all so I don't know why you're supposedly agreeing with him

[catboi]

why do I have to fucking read alisae's ISO to understand your read

"If you're trying to feign shock or anger, it's much harder to do over a long period... "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_( ... ame_theory

oh for sure man

[catboi]

The current game state is that people are pushing for potentially easy miselims. Alisae was the one who started the mastina wagon and the T3 wagon.

So is T3 a likely scumflip or a potentially easy mis-elim?? he can't be both

[catboi]

god I love when I finally catch someone doing some real scummy shit and the entire game goes "lalalala I can't hear you"

I love mafia

I love the games on this website

[catboi]

why do I have to fucking read alisae's ISO to understand your read

"If you're trying to feign shock or anger, it's much harder to do over a long period... "

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_( ... ame_theory

oh for sure man

god I love when I finally catch someone doing some real scummy shit and the entire game goes "lalalala I can't hear you"

I love mafia

I love the games on this website

what are you even trying to do right now dude

[catboi]

Okay I'll skip the fire scum case for right now because I don't actually know if I feel confident in that right now and I don't want another catboi situation

as far as Kitty and T3 goes

here's my gamestate read

If Kitty and T3 are T/S, I absolutely think scum are going to be bussing their scum buddy here, and thus I think scum is going to be the bigger wagon. I don't think as a scum team you see scum!T3 and town!Kitty and say, oh! We can get a miselim onto Kitty! You just burn all your town credit doing that and burning T3 for credit is way more beneficial than jamming Kitty through. Like, I really don't think you play the way, for example SCRRRDBEAR has been playing, if you are scum with T3 here. If T3 is town and Kitty is scum, the same logic applies. I don't think either slot realistically has a ton of legs in this game. The flip side of town!T3 and scum!Kitty I think means we'd be looking at a gamestate where it's almost all scum on Kitty and mostly all town on T3, which I don't really think makes sense.

If Kitty and T3 are S/S, I'd ask why the hell there hasn't been a 3rd counterwagon for so long. I guess recently there's alisae, but my gut says that's a lot more likely to be motivated by town getting restless than scum deciding they need to change the gamestate and save their buddies. I don't think scum lets themselves get into the position where the top two wagons are two scum for so long. Maybe I'm overestimating town but the fact it took this long for any sort of counter wagon to even be proposed makes me think this is unlikely.

If Kitty and T3 are T/T I'd actually expect Kitty to be the main one getting pushed here? T3 is producing virtually nothing to town read whereas Kitty actually has some life in him. Both would be viable miseliminations but T3 is nice and easy to save for later, he's never gonna town it up more than he is right now (or at least I doubt it). Whereas Kitty is actually showing life and might actually get harder to kill later on.

okay now I have actual play related reasons to think T3 is scum and Kitty is town, which I will post shortly, but I wanted to get that out there before my power goes out again

Honestly, I don't feel like you can really neatly predict what scum are going to do at all in a situation like this, because scum do weird shit. As an example I would've expected Ircher was bussed into the ground in Datisi's cafe but that wasn't really the case. I think if T3 town/kittytacky scum you get maybe mostly town voting T3 and a few scum while 1-2 positioned themselves on KT for cred ater, hoping town shoots itself in the foot. that's really pretty common I think. in the case of T/T...maybe they just get more people who agree that KT is town, IDK. point being is that this type of stuff is rarely as simple as it seems and that's why I don't like making these types of predictions.

Who are you even suggesting is potentially bussing T3, besides fire?

The stuff about T3's play is ~fair but even then I just think he's....very not good and I can see this coming from town-him but I don't know what the fuck you

do

about that

[catboi]

cool I'm out see you

[catboi]

like why the fuck do people who KNOW I do not like them and do not want them in my games keep trying to join games I am in

[catboi]

grats freedom

sorry for the replace out that was really unsportsmanlike of me i shouldn't have done it that way. should have just toughed it out.