Micro 800-A: Double Day Unlimited [Endgame]

[Katyusha]

Hi I'm the best
VOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Katyusha
VOTE: singersinger
VOTE: Plotinus
VOTE: Dunnstral
VOTE: Pine
VOTE: Not Mafia
VOTE: Ausuka

[

B

]

lease

[Katyusha]

VOTE: redflavor

townreading ausuka btw

[Katyusha]

ms is full of egos

[Katyusha]

it's 2 am here

[Katyusha]

Mastina and I both wanted the Normal. I don't like Open setups. We're both flexible and comfortable as either alignment, so seeing who was in each game was more important. I was specifically looking to avoid certain player(s).

To clarify, that means your feelings were the impetus for your decision? Or are you just stating why you went with this game and both Mastina and you had reasons to ultimately go the way you did?

[Katyusha]

chivalry

I’ll take that as a “the former” to my question

Pine, any specific reason you didn’t answer me directly?

[Katyusha]

Yup!

[Katyusha]

Pine is L-1 btw but he is most likely scum so good

Don’t really see what warrants that read yet, help me out?

[Katyusha]

RedFlavor’s at L-1 too btw

Slightly prefer redflavor over pine

[Katyusha]

was, SS is off now

She’s voting both you and CES

This is why I never really liked the “unlimited” part of the setup lmao, double votes are pretty anti town in general

[Katyusha]

Pine is L-1 btw but he is most likely scum so good

Don’t really see what warrants that read yet, help me out?

Red just let me know if you're going to ignore this, thanks

[Katyusha]

i dont go on gd so i cant relate

nor does he give the impression he's awkward?

[Katyusha]

Ausuka what do you think of rf?

[Katyusha]

What was he more like? Aggression is usually town indicative so if that’s a significant difference between his scum/townplay I’ll look into that

[Katyusha]

What was he more like? Aggression is usually town indicative so if that’s a significant difference between his scum/townplay I’ll look into that

viewtopic.php?t=75613&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go
he's more, like, passive there? laid-back. not like what he's doing here.

UNVOTE:

going from that and polygamist (which i just skimmed his iso of since i know mathdino misread him there for a while) yeah there's a pretty stark contrast here

who do you want to wagon instead? i'm townreading you and singer right now, i'll give redflavor some space, and pine is at l-1 and im not super crazy about the lynch there. kind of dont want to wagon dunn since he's an easy read when he actually posts so i dont really need the pressure/risk being stupid and misreading him when his alignment usually clears up after a few posts

[Katyusha]

Not worried about getting hammered, Pine?

actually here's your answer

VOTE: ces

Where were you getting the impression Pine was worried?

[Katyusha]

LMFAO

[Katyusha]

vote: CES

i liked the timing of this vote, i wasnt too crazy about ces's post above it (i thought his rvs stuff was like. tonally ok and wanted to stick to my draft read on rf first so i didnt bother joining)

pressure on you felt legitimate as well - what's your qualm there?

[Katyusha]

I'd like to vote for scum as annoying as that is, Pine. Do you have any reads besides that?

[Katyusha]

[

B

]

lease no

Dunn is town btw

[Katyusha]

RedFlavor looks scummy to me. Not a huge fan of Singer's opacity.

Honestly it's way too early for sophisticated reads.

Is opaqueness scummy in your experience? It’s not really my style but I usually can see why people are like that early on

vote: CES

i liked the timing of this vote, i wasnt too crazy about ces's post above it (i thought his rvs stuff was like. tonally ok and wanted to stick to my draft read on rf first so i didnt bother joining)

pressure on you felt legitimate as well - what's your qualm there?

well, unless Pine is town there was probably scum on him, and the wagonhop from singer there feels like a likely candidate. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the CES post, and I think you probably misread it? The pressure on me doesn't really feel that legitimate; she's saying I'm scum because I don't want Pine quickhammered on page 2 and because I forgot about the double-day mechanic? And I'm not even sure it's meant to be pressure on me, considering she's voting Pine and CES but not me.

I agree the voting everyone thing is anti-town but am unsure NM is scum for that. I almost hammered Pine earlier tbh because I didn't realise the wagon was L-1

I don’t think she was calling you scum for it lmao, just picking at your head. If she disagrees though I’d like to hear her POV

And, nah, didn’t misread CES’s post. It feels like if I guess... inflammatory? (Not really the right word) and the value call of pine doesn’t really make sense to me

Gonna look again at the wagons

[Katyusha]

I guess rn I’d pick n_m as the most likely scum on pine if pine is town, I don’t think singer’s vote was particularly opportunistic like you say

Like I’m townreading her ces vote more and can plausibly see scum!singer making her pine vote, but her pine vote is null to me

n_m > rf > ploti > singer

[Katyusha]

i forgot the word not and didnt call myself out lmao

I feel like there are better ways to poke the guy at l-1, though. Like it kind of feels like a non-question to me. What would have been an AI response, for example?

More to the point though I don't really see how Pine should have reacted. 45 and what I assume you mean in 47 seem like pretty typical posts of someone getting wagonned and if anything I'd argue he's at least doing something with his wagon scumhunting wise. I don't think it's outside of his scumrange but the line of questioning here doesn't sit well with me.

[Katyusha]

mean in 47 seem like pretty typical posts of someone getting wagonned and if any

Er 48 lol

I’m not even whelmed by Pine’s posting

Are you expecting to be?

[Katyusha]

I’ve always thought he was just great scum and average town idk

Makes me feel like him feeling mediocre is like. Not scummy.

Wouldn’t shed a tear if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb to me.

[Katyusha]

N_M do you have any other scumreads?

[Katyusha]

If pine flipped scum for sake of argument then

[Katyusha]

I mean that’s reasonable

[Katyusha]

Ploti doesn’t like scum, right?

[Katyusha]

If the above it’s true it might actually be Pine/CES

You feel legit so far, Dunn and ausuka are obvtown, singer is townie, rf is apparently town by meta i’ll trust in

So sure after like last minute reads and some discussion i’m no longer opposing this

[Katyusha]

Do tell.

[Katyusha]

I’ve always thought he was just great scum and average town idk

Makes me feel like him feeling mediocre is like. Not scummy.

Wouldn’t shed a tear if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb to me.

I mean I outright said it here

Do you think a shitty wagon with townreads on it is a real reason to townread someone?

[Katyusha]

Ploti doesn’t like scum, right?

This is meaningless now though lmao

[Katyusha]

I am fully committing to those reads.

It’s called having a trajectory!

[Katyusha]

It’s currently a scumread.

Trajectory basically went

Scumreading redflavor for draft reasons, don’t agree with n_m’s vote on you and usually syncing with him is how I read him. Singer is townie and Ploti is maybetown from the draft but otherwise null. Didn’t really like how CES interacted with you but I was ok with his dunn interaction. 1 townread isn’t the sexist wagon composition and I don’t really align myself with the reasoning that hard, all my other townreads that I felt more confident were off it

After talking with Ausuka and looking a little bit into RF’s meta that turned into a townlean, and I don’t think n_m scumreads me as scum since he knows I’m usually a difficult mislynch as town. Wagon composition turns townier and I mostly nullread you so no point in pushing against the wagon when I can just sort you off of your reaction

Your push on me feels like scum though, I think my thought process here is pretty transparent and I don’t really see why this doesn’t make sense. Treating me like I’m fanning the flames subtly when I outright said “Wouldn’t really care if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb” since there’s L-1 like less than 24 hours into the game is pretty disingenuous

[Katyusha]

Like do you think I ask the questions I ask just for fun?

I’m obviously trying to get somewhere and when I looked at my reads you had more scum equity than I originally thought

[Katyusha]

Man if you self hammered here I’d lose all my faith in your scumgame lol

A scumlynch gives town more mislynches, I highly doubt anyone is a deep enough wolf to attempt the game solo right now

Go ahead and work with me if you want, I pride myself in being willing to engage with my scumreads and sometimes even feel I let people off easy. I’m not like actually ready for a hammer but my reads make sense to me right now

[Katyusha]

cogdis between what she's saying and what she's doing

er

?

no?

[Katyusha]

It’s currently a scumread.

Trajectory basically went

Scumreading redflavor for draft reasons, don’t agree with n_m’s vote on you and usually syncing with him is how I read him. Singer is townie and Ploti is maybetown from the draft but otherwise null. Didn’t really like how CES interacted with you but I was ok with his dunn interaction. 1 townread isn’t the sexist wagon composition and I don’t really align myself with the reasoning that hard, all my other townreads that I felt more confident were off it

After talking with Ausuka and looking a little bit into RF’s meta that turned into a townlean, and I don’t think n_m scumreads me as scum since he knows I’m usually a difficult mislynch as town. Wagon composition turns townier and I mostly nullread you so no point in pushing against the wagon when I can just sort you off of your reaction

Your push on me feels like scum though, I think my thought process here is pretty transparent and I don’t really see why this doesn’t make sense. Treating me like I’m fanning the flames subtly when I outright said “Wouldn’t really care if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb” since there’s L-1 like less than 24 hours into the game is pretty disingenuous

help me see why this doesnt match up with what i am doing, this is exactly what went on in my head and it makes perfect sense to me

[Katyusha]

Because voting for you would hammer you? Do you want to be hammered?

[Katyusha]

Talk to me about why? I can buy the emotions as either alignment but I don't buy the me read and if it's real i'm like actually disappointed in mastina

[Katyusha]

that doesnt really help me out :/

like do you see why i dont think the cogdis point is real for example and understand my explanation of my trajectory?

[Katyusha]

I'd really like some expansion on Ali and your Pine meta reads, Ploti. 120 has nothing to do with the conversation at hand and is just posturing, 119 and 128 were both actual questions that got no response and a fake answer respectively. like how the fuck is not hammering pine contrary to moving my read of his slot from "null, but the wagon is scum or based on bad reasoning. a scum flip here feels cheap but isn't impossible" to "push on me is garbage and i townread the wagonners"? The progression there doesn't feel natural to me and Pine doesn't actually seem to care about engaging me, he's just calling me scum and not making any effort to think critically. I also dislike the fact he's still calling me scum while his other scumreads are both voting and scumreading me without making any effort to consider why that's happening. Unless he thinks I'm partnered with singer, I guess? Who the fuck knows. If this his town meta let me know so I can stop trying this game and just eat rope.

like at this point if he's town im just going to accept it's apparently ok townplay to not talk to your scumreads if you're a geriatric enough player considering how often ive played with "good" players like reck moi hintu and other names ive probably blacked out at this point because "i dont answer my scumreads xd" is a fucking awful mindset to have to deal with when i'm town but i feel like every time i'm in a game that doesn't have a shitty playerlist there's SOMEONE who thinks it's ok and it's literally intolerable to me

i still prefer a ces lynch, his last post felt pretty illuminating that he was going nowhere with his pine question. if pine is town then i think rf is more likely scum than n_m. everyone else is town

[Katyusha]

I'm not pretending. Please explain to me how ignoring 130 is engaging me, or how your answer to 128 makes any sense.

You're talking to me like scum. Help me out here if you're town.

[Katyusha]

also i highly doubt anyone actually cares about my opinion of you in general lmao

[Katyusha]

I'm unsure if Pine!scum just accuses of you of cogdis without a basis?

Scum!him thinks he has a basis, I was shaky around his wagon to him (even though I think my stance was pretty clear and not waffly until I changed my read). It's just that the basis doesn't line up with what happened.

At least that's the impression I get. That's why I asked him what was wrong with my thought process but the only issue he gave was that I wasn't voting him, which is outright terrible considering that'd mean he gets hammered lmao

vc in ~1 hour

the suspend

[Katyusha]

For example, she keeps going on and on about how this is scum!Pine just attacking her without reason or explanation...yet I don't see a vote on me.

again, do you want to be hammered? Right now?

[Katyusha]

and AGAIN, interacting with people changed my reads, I townread not_mafia's interaction with me, by poe that makes you more likely scum

like how does that not make sense

[Katyusha]

Pine is saying it’s scummy that I’m not voting him while scumreading him while he’s a l-1

????

[Katyusha]

Missed that. He still said that when he was at l-1 though so the point still exists

VOTE: Pine

What do you think of the situation CES?

[Katyusha]

Before I respond to posts and update my own thoughts in-thread, I'm going to dump Lycan's summary of his thoughts here really fast since we just talked last night and I think it's important to see where I'm coming from emotionally/trajectory-wise rn

---

Really felt his description of the game as "everyone else is roleplaying as scum" was apt lmfao

In terms of reads, Lycan actually feels that CES is town. He vibed with most of what he was doing and he'd vote in the same places at the same time as him.

He also disagrees with me strongly about singer!town. I'll touch upon this below since I'm going chronologically and he didn't really elaborate until I told him my POV at the time.

We're basically in sync with Ausuka and Dunn. 147 is a townie reach out with me (as is ausuka's attempts at working with me in general), her thought process is just generally honest and Lycan feels she's right about CES/Singer and thus is positively pushing me in the right direction. Lycan felt it was especially important to note it was obvious Ausuka's intentions were to work with me genuinely before she even stated she was trying to work with me. 87, while the misrep of Singer was iffy, was clearly trying to get me to townread CES in a way that it felt like she cared and was talking with me rather than to me, so to speak. Dunn's 85 he felt was a good way to jog Ausuka's thought process while I was only mostly townreading her for draft reasons, and he pointed this out as an instance where Dunn is trying to work with me (I had noted in our discord that I was shocked Dunn has barely interacted with me). He also thought 93 was the best question to ask singer while he felt she was being self-conscious. I don't really know if I agree with describing singer as self-conscious but I see where he's coming from (though my way of reading dunn tends to be more... soulread-based, where i'd cite 28 and 83 as obvtown dunn posts).

he wrote a whole essay on his pine scumread which i'll bullet real fast

• 142 he felt was evident of a scum thought process, Pine basically forgot entirely about his n_m scumread just to start a strongarm on me
  
  
• Dislikes how his only interactions with Ausuka, like in 152, are to boost lynch morale on me since Ausuka is still clearly trying to work with me.
  
  
• He pointed out that Pine's scumread of me didn't come into place until I thinned out my poe to suspect him in 108
  
  
• There's a dissonance in 142 and 144 in term of how fatalistic Pine is. Lycan says specifically that he might even townread 144 if it wasn't for 142.
  
  
• Lycan pointed out that Mastina's read in 126 is incongruous with what she had said about me in her Team Mafia PT. Link here, screenshot courtesy of Edward Cannis. Where has Pine bothered to interact with me to get to Mastina's scumread of me? The only purpose of the posts Lycan and I agree could be considered "interacting with" were posts 109 - 142 were to take wind out of my push. Clearly not motivated by putting any effort to sort me, but to take wind out of my push. I had 10 interactions with Pine, Pine only has 6 with me at the time this was written and they're mostly just answering me. It's passive, not active.
  
  
• While Lycan independently scumreads Singer, he felt that 120 comes from bussed scum, where threatening to self-hammer is a middle finger to town. Lycan didn't like that singer unvoted in 137 instead of earlier.
  
  
• Disagreed with the "too early to gather sophisticated reads" bit and the Singer's opaqueness read.

As for singer, 165 he noted as "if pine is tonedeaf, singer is blind" which is

and honestly what started changing my own read. Felt 49 was an attempt to get CES to townread her and thus indicative of them not being aligned. Doesn't like how she goes for what he called "pine's meatball" (apparently this is an expression people use? tbf lycan is like a vampire and probably over 100 years old so maybe back in 1718 they did but this is 2018) in 68 which he felt was like a mindlessly easy post to criticize. Felt 94 was too self-conscious of a response to Dunn, as well. With 96 we argued for probably longer than we should have on whether or not it was townie or scummy. He felt the triple negative was apologetic, I felt it was sassy. Is sassiness town indicative? Is singer a good enough scum player to react like that or is my threshold too low? Sometimes I really hate the way the conversations about these games sound when you actually write them out LMFAO

---

On another note, congrats Pine! <3

Hope everything goes well for you and your wife and your new baby! Sorry if my callousness has rubbed you the wrong way yesterday btw, I was kind of in a mindset where I felt isolated and didn't really have anyone to fall back on and it just kind of festered into... that. I know that's not a real excuse to be a binch (is anything...?) but yeah.

I liked CES's latest and I'll go into why as I go through all of the posts, so

UNVOTE:

I mostly want to keep my vote on Pine rather than both Pine and singer and maybe even rf, while the morale for a Pine lynch is going down I want my perspective to be seen. I'm not letting this go and if I get roped town is making the promise that Pine goes next.

Deuces.

[Katyusha]

Cogito, how serious was your dunnstral vote in 27?

I was taking the "Hey" as a very lazy scum tell.

his last post felt pretty illuminating that he was going nowhere with his pine question

I think you pretty much could've gotten that from the original post.

What do you think of the situation CES?

I think mainly that I really appreciate getting to talk to chamber to keep myself sane.

Pine's cogdis point feels pretty off to me (but I wouldn't expect anything else from mastina's team); if I were to give a reason for why you might be scum, it'd be pretty much the opposite - you seem to be commenting a lot about how you stand in relation to other people and how your reads change from a slight remove (e.g. in #143). Maybe that's just what you're like but the whole cogdis line of questioning sure feels uninteresting.

Both responses to me are town.

I like the admission he was going nowhere with his question, when scum are asking questions they're generally doing it to emulate scumhunting and thus usually have some sort of planned trajectory in mind. This just feels earnest and town to me.

His assessment of the situation is also probably the most valid take I've seen so far besides my team's. I think scumreading me for that specific reason is reasonable, even Lycan noted he felt some of the reads I made were questionable (obviously singer, and n_m). Unlike Pine, who is going out of his way to paint my trajectory in a way it just... isn't, this is an entirely fair way of seeing things and it's not even his ideal push if his votes are anything to go by.

I agree that the cogdis point on my end is getting kind of trite, but I feel it's the best way to show how Pine isn't actually making any real effort to re-evaluate or scumhunt, he's thinking with an agenda in mind and it's to just mindlessly tunnel me.

Not sure how I want to follow up on this but this post gave me a lot of clarity.

[Katyusha]

Missed that. He still said that when he was at l-1 though so the point still exists

VOTE: Pine

What do you think of the situation CES?

The point doesn't really stand because at the time you responded, you could've voted if you really wanted to, and even if you had responded before when he

was

at l-1, you never declared intent or preference to vote him.

Again, this is just being blind.

When I first asked Pine if he wanted to be quickhammered, Dunn had already given intent. What the hell is the point of giving a

second

intent when it's already going to happen? And like, I factually did respond with that question originally when he was at L-1. Nothing makes sense about Pine's criticism about not voting for him, and now he's just milking that I missed singer's unvote.

[Katyusha]

Yeah...probably.

also bop'ing singer here shamelessly

[Katyusha]

UNVOTE: Singer
UNVOTE: Ploti
UNVOTE: Dunnstral

and for what it's worth this is a town n_m post I think

preferred lynch order rn is like

pine > singer > rf > one of n_m/ces that i'd decide on later or expect town to reevaluate if i'm lynched at some point

for what it's worth im not 100% on ploti being town, if i squint really hard i can see a universe where ali doesn't take a scum pm in a game i'm in since e used to complain about how I constantly tunneled them when I rolled town. I'm assuming that while Ploti doesn't like scum, them winning a Don Corleone is at least indicative of them being capable of taking it if their team tactically needs it. That does require Ali to actually give a shit about what I think or em to not have an ego and think that they can outsmart me or even get me to townread them, so it's more like Ploti is 90% town, but I'd just feel shitty if town lost to a scum!Plot before they really posted anything alignment indicative just because of draft shenanigans. I don't have a real reason to townread Plot's content but I don't scumread it either.

Pine is also more likely to be scum on draft shenanigans which didn't really dawn on me until now

pedit: cool cool~

[Katyusha]

@Kat...why are you townreading Ausuka?

Started with draft reasons (Ausuka is obvscum and she also doesn't like playing it, Unah is more comfortable as scum), turned into because of how she's probably the only person who's genuinely tried to work with me and get somewhere.

[Katyusha]

Dunn, talk to me. Seeing as you're the person in the table most familiar with me I kind of need a rock here besides Lycan and I want to pry into your head






fwiw i want to see more from rf too

[Katyusha]

but like why does scum!Pine think he has a basis while town!Pine can't be wrong about having a basis? they both require seeing some sort of cogdis, right?

I think "Katy isn't voting for me while she scumreads me she has no conviction xd" is a very easy and simplistic way of pushing a "cogdis", so Pine definitely thinks he has a basis here regardless of his alignment. It's scummy because a basis like that requires a deliberately surface-level mindset to actually take it seriously.

Do you think Pine's argument makes sense here?

[Katyusha]

also lol i forgot the most AI part of ces's post

the part about appreciating having chamber was just Relatable^tm, gonna feel like shit if I scumread that rn when Pine is just flat out scumposting lmao

[Katyusha]

also also wanted to point out the staggering irony of mastina supporting a push on me for "flagrantly pushing both sides" when that was literally what reck scumread me for in team mafia, and where I flip flopped on which side of rc/mastina vs reck/chesskid to be on like 3 times

[Katyusha]

Ausuka hasn't wowed me this game after having just played with them, I'm not seeing them as town right now - Not Mafia vote is lazy

Really? What are some differences you're seeing right now?

w rf I can agree with that, like I can kind of see him voting for Me/Pine at the time he did as having a real trajectory but besides that I need more from him.

Rest I can empathize with tbh and dont really have any comments. I think I need more from singer to really feel like I'm going somewhere with that read since rn it's just a "most likely partner/'you're better than this'" read but like while I was townreading her I see where you're coming from

[Katyusha]

also i just realized i unvoted both ces and pine LMFAO

VOTE: pine

[Katyusha]

cool

[Katyusha]

let it be known that if plot actually hammers me here that all of you are scumclaiming if you dont








im going through the game you sent rn

[Katyusha]

Day One, Lynch One

Votecount 1.4

Cogito Ergo Sum (3):

Not_Mafia, singersinger, Katyusha

Katyusha (2):

RedFlavor, Not_Mafia

singersinger (2):

Not_Mafia, Cogito Ergo Sum

Plotinus (1):

Not_Mafia

Dunnstral (2):

Ausuka, Not_Mafia

Pine (4):

RedFlavor, Plotinus, Not_Mafia, singersinger

Ausuka (1):

Not_Mafia

RedFlavor (2):

Not_Mafia, Pine

Not_Mafia (1):

Pine

Not Voting (1):

Dunnstral

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline:

(expired on 2018-05-20 01:00:59)

Mod Notes:

It’s currently a scumread.

Trajectory basically went

Scumreading redflavor for draft reasons, don’t agree with n_m’s vote on you and usually syncing with him is how I read him. Singer is townie and Ploti is maybetown from the draft but otherwise null. Didn’t really like how CES interacted with you but I was ok with his dunn interaction. 1 townread isn’t the sexist wagon composition and I don’t really align myself with the reasoning that hard, all my other townreads that I felt more confident were off it

After talking with Ausuka and looking a little bit into RF’s meta that turned into a townlean, and I don’t think n_m scumreads me as scum since he knows I’m usually a difficult mislynch as town. Wagon composition turns townier and I mostly nullread you so no point in pushing against the wagon when I can just sort you off of your reaction

Your push on me feels like scum though, I think my thought process here is pretty transparent and I don’t really see why this doesn’t make sense. Treating me like I’m fanning the flames subtly when I outright said “Wouldn’t really care if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb” since there’s L-1 like less than 24 hours into the game is pretty disingenuous

help me see why this doesnt match up with what i am doing, this is exactly what went on in my head and it makes perfect sense to me

Well, for starters you're only voting for CES.

Because voting for you would hammer you? Do you want to be hammered?

[Katyusha]

felt that was a good post to have on a pagetop

[Katyusha]

dunn lycan wants your thoughts on 165

sorry for spamposting btw lmao, i'll stop when scum stop leading

[Katyusha]

but like that's the thing

singer should be more than capable of coming to the right conclusion that what i did there was, in fact, not scummy. literally anyone should

there's nothing difficult about coming to that conclusion, and when there's a dissonance in getting there it needs to be solved

the obvious answer is that it's scum. i dont see how misguided can solve it honestly, the answer's blatant


also with your ausuka meta lycan and i both agreed that there's a match between here and there. she's not fencesitting as hard as she does as scum (for the unaware she's mm4), she's townbloccing and interacting with her townreads equally strong. She's more tryhard in the normal, sure, but she even acknowledged she was going out of her way to do so. I'd say it's inconclusive at worst, town indicative at best.

[Katyusha]

What precludes me from finding 165 a bad post and realizing I should listen to what Ausuka and Lycan were saying as town?

Like, sure in a vacuum that could be a correct interpretation of what happened, but how do you intend to differentiate between the town version of me thinking my initial reads were wrong?

[Katyusha]

Apparently there are right and wrong ways to catch scum

[Katyusha]

The post was made on the 19th and choosing games was finalized the 21st so I’m pretty sure it was meant in a general conext. I’ll admit I haven’t read the pt besides that screenshot being discussed in our team’s pt some time in post game, but that was the basis of Lycan’s argument there. It makes sense to me as a general thing anyway.

And yeah n_m’s shtick is still stupid, but I’m reading it more for the trajectory being shown. I think at the time those unvoted were made it makes sense for n_m to have come to those reads and when he’s not obvtowning read quality is usually the only way to sort him. Singer read might be wrong in my opinion but I don’t think it’s implausible to have gone that route.

[Katyusha]

Scumreading redflavor for draft reasons,

:thonk:

cheeky never takes scum which means you're >rand scum lol

why are you townreading pine?

[Katyusha]

i feel like im speaking to bricks then i guess, i feel like i've laid out every issue that exists with them

dunn can you just wk me or something

cheeky never takes scum which means you're >rand scum lol

Do you think I would take scum???

Yes? Cheeky absolutely hates playing scum and has been on a scumstreak, i'd say of all the duos she's the most likely to avoid a scum pm. Even more than Ausuka.

[Katyusha]

do you also have some meta of hating scum? i dont think this is an unusual opinion to have and im sure the rest of the table would vouch for me regardless of their read on me

[Katyusha]

part of me wants to ask why even bother going for 2nd draft then but i have a feeling it'll turn into pointless drivel and i only know you from discord so i wont really bother prying because i dont really have the grounds to verify or refute you

[Katyusha]

the more i look at that votecount the more i want to vote for singer but i really want pine to be lynched today

[Katyusha]

dunn can we be mason buddies this game

[Katyusha]

I guess? I feel like it’s Lycan’s point to defend anyway what I told you is basically what he said. If he follows up I’ll let you know

VOTE: Singer

Probably won’t go anywhere since I’m getting lynched but what the hell lmao

[Katyusha]

I’ll help you out Plot

I’ve always thought he was just great scum and average town idk

Makes me feel like him feeling mediocre is like. Not scummy.

Wouldn’t shed a tear if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb to me.

If Pine feels mediocre then it seems possible to me that he’s town if his scumgame is better than his town game. That’s not a real reason to townread someone, especially someone you have never played with.

The wagon was legitimately stupid and if he flipped scum at that time it’d feel cheap. The most reason anyone gave to wagon him was “he didn’t feel like this in GD” which I think is self-explanatory on why it’s dumb. I think it’s entirely possible Town pushes dumb reasons like that on page two, but that doesn’t make Pine town. I had no reason to think Pine was more or less likely scum at that time so to me if he got flipped I’d just feel the same way about it. Like there was no reason for me to care about his wagon

[Katyusha]

Part of it is how early Pine was wagonned, because Alisae thinks that as a wolf, Pine wouldn't get wagoned so early and that are probably wolves wolfreading him.

^ Reminder that Pine’s wagon composition is identical to mine

[Katyusha]

It’s far more reasonable for scum to bus in an RVS wagon that’s not going to go through than it is on a wagon like this when I literally have the stronger case here

Every slot that’s even remotely posted anything town (Ausuka, Dunn, CES) have all shown they’re not going to go support this. Please remember that when I flip that both scum are voting me and are not hiding it. Pine is obvious scum and I really hope it’s crystal clear why after this shit lynch.

[Katyusha]

Dunn is an IC as soon as I flip. This is his town meta to a T and you’re scum if you push him.

CES and Ausuka are like 90% town, no real reason to scumread them but I don’t have the same solid foundation as I do for Dunn

Plot I’ll act like I townread but like note Ali throwing away eir reason to townread Pine when it should also apply to me is notable and should be scrutinized after I’m hammered

N_M and RF are just bad town I think. They’re LHF, not scum. Like they’ve at least shown an attempt to look like they have real thought processes and are gamesolving. More confident n_m is town than rf but it’s not promising.

Pine is the next lynch. Singer tomorrow.

[Katyusha]

Subject: Mini Normal 1850 | The Penguin Mafia | Endgame

Giga can be really hesitant at times and is very transparent about her read changes
Scum always try to exploit this and write her off as an easy scum read....it's almost a scumtell at this point

Deuces.

[Katyusha]

Just take it into consideration now?

Like the wagon on me is horrible and there’s zero opposition to it since Ausuka/Dunn/Ces are all playing passively and they’re also all town

[Katyusha]

Anyway regardless of what anyone flips I still stand by my play and don’t think I deserve this

I don’t really have an ego but I know a shit lynch when I see one

[Katyusha]

Just reread my iso and I have no clue where people even got the impression I townread Pine

[Katyusha]

All mentions of Pine before I scumread him:

Pine is L-1 btw but he is most likely scum so good

Don’t really see what warrants that read yet, help me out?

Sure it’s clear I don’t scumread him here but I also don’t see why RF is confident in his read here

RedFlavor’s at L-1 too btw

Slightly prefer redflavor over pine

“Slightly” should key people in that I didn’t have a strong read one way or the other

i dont go on gd so i cant relate

nor does he give the impression he's awkward?

“I don’t agree with your toneread” is not “I townread the person you’re pushing”

I'd like to vote for scum as annoying as that is, Pine. Do you have any reads besides that?

Not a question specifically asked to townreads? Like Pine’s vote was entirely policy and I wanted to see if he had scumreads

RedFlavor looks scummy to me. Not a huge fan of Singer's opacity.

Honestly it's way too early for sophisticated reads.

Is opaqueness scummy in your experience? It’s not really my style but I usually can see why people are like that early on

Hanging question that never got followed up on btw, singer scumread disappearing is a nice meme and more evidence Pine doesn’t have a real trajectory if you needed it

I guess rn I’d pick n_m as the most likely scum on pine if pine is town, I don’t think singer’s vote was particularly opportunistic like you say

Like I’m townreading her ces vote more and can plausibly see scum!singer making her pine vote, but her pine vote is null to me

n_m > rf > ploti > singer

I don’t think “who is the most likely scum on Pine if he’s town” is a particularly wild thing to think about when he’s at L-1

mean in 47 seem like pretty typical posts of someone getting wagonned and if any

Er 48 lol

I’m not even whelmed by Pine’s posting

Are you expecting to be?

Totally reasonable question regardless of my read on Pine

I’ve always thought he was just great scum and average town idk

Makes me feel like him feeling mediocre is like. Not scummy.

Wouldn’t shed a tear if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb to me.

Again I still stand by saying this, and the explanation for it is above if this still perplexed people how you can be OK with a wagon on a nullread

[Katyusha]

Ausuka you’re fine you just haven’t been active that’s what I was saying

Let’s get singer

[Katyusha]

What's LHF?

Low hanging fruit

[Katyusha]

N_M and RF specifically felt that Pine was scum and Singer and you were individually voting Pine iirc

The lynch morale was clearly in favor of a Pine lynch at the time

Ali misreading me doesn’t surprise me. If someone off my wagon changes their mind or I make it to D2 hopefully e gets out of their pocket.

[Katyusha]

Singer lynch is still better and eir points on her were actually good fwiw

[Katyusha]

Why not me?

[Katyusha]

If I’m your top scumread I don’t understand why you wouldn’t want me lynched but ok

Losing n_m’s vote means the me lynch is basically done but I’ll give you your space to do whatever

[Katyusha]

Yeah, sorry thought everyone here knew Giga is my main bc of Team Mafia/discord and that was meant to be like my last post (kraska was a really close friend of Lycan and mine so like giving her a shout-out was supposed to be like an overly dramatic way of going out and joining her in the afterlife since this is dynamic duo mafia. It sounded cooler in my head lmaooooo and probably lost any impact from not getting lynched)

[Katyusha]

Good lord...

Finals suck and I’ve spammed the game enough

[Katyusha]

Thanks! I’l try Not to Die

[Katyusha]

I agree with CES it might be a personality thing because I can be the same way

My instinct here is that if you're trying to find my posts relatable or whatever this would click at a different point in time? Is CES stating as much when you first considered that? If not, when?

Dunn is being a bit dodgy and not at all playing the same way he was in White Flag.

My Dunnmeta says he's town here, please expand on this.

[Katyusha]

These both strike me as SUPER agenda-driven. I've been having a hard time reading singer all game, but this is setting off alarm bells.

this is like the worst possible reason to scumread singer

[Katyusha]

What I'm reading is that you're basically trying to discredit the WF observation from every angle while distancing yourself from a wagon you know will flip town.

I'm discrediting the observation too lmao

the more pine posts the less im convinced anything he writes is real - is the lynch morale here really gone?

[Katyusha]

@Kat...I'm specifically interested in your comparison of Dunn's play to WF. Where's the pro-town intent and conviction to push his reads?

Him lacking conviction isn't scummy, I think for most people outside of my own slot this would be a difficult game (Pine/singer, if that is the team, are more than capable of playing a townie game as scum. If I'm wrong on one of those, CES is playing very differently from white flag and is like gradually getting more and more townie, Ausuka manipulated the draft meta and has been generally reasonable and has had strong engagement, N_M is faking a good trajectory. only RF i have no reason to really peg as townie and even then I agree with Ausuka's observation from earlier. From Dunn's town!pov some fencesitting is expected). What I do see is how he's intermixing his shitposting and his scumhunting, if need be I'll make a dump post on this but he has a super easy to follow thought process and is visibly trying to move the game. That's town indicative of Dunn.

[Katyusha]

Shit.

Singer's looking Town. Irritated with myself that I almost pulled the trigger earlier today.

Hammer threat rescinded, pending discussion with Mastina.

what's the thought process here

she feels like a constant to me, like literally nothing changed about my read on her from the last page or so

[Katyusha]

Singer lynch is still better and eir points on her were actually good fwiw

are you still scumreading singer?

Yes.

To achieve a mislynch and quietly lower the threat on his buddy.

^ do people see this shit or is it just me ^

[Katyusha]

Obviously, something she did set me off, and then she allayed my concerns. Preeeetty clear on my process there.

Right, what are the things that allayed your concerns and why did they?

The former is easily answered and I can kind of see where you are getting at but the value call doesn't jive with me.

[Katyusha]

I'm sorry, but what exactly do you know about my scum game, and how can you even remotely draw that conclusion about me?

Wrt your other points on Dunn visibly trying to move the game and transparent thought process, hard disagree. You'll need to make that dump post for me.

Answer to the former is personality analysis, just from like a general vibe of what I've seen from you in TM and here regardless of your alignment you have like. a somewhat competent scumgame.

And I'll get to that soon, somewhat busy at the second and this'll take a bit since it's cross-referencing games.

[Katyusha]

I townread your play earlier so it's possible for someone to misread you if you are in fact scum here. Looking townie is not all there is to scumplay, I don't know how well you think tactically or how well you can anticipate town's trajectory which is something I'd actually have to see you flip in multiple games to say. At bare minimum, yes, you have a "somewhat competent scumgame" which means that you are "more than capable of playing a townie game as scum". You can write in a way that doesn't get gut-scumread, which generally is more than enough to get townread.

Where are you getting the impression this is a justification for my vote?

[Katyusha]

My instinct here is that if you're trying to find my posts relatable or whatever this would click at a different point in time? Is CES stating as much when you first considered that? If not, when?

Can you respond to this though? This is important.

[Katyusha]

Because if you think I'm town then you wouldn't be voting for me, which feels like what you've been arguing by saying I'd be townie as scum with nothing to back it up. And you're still saying you townread my play earlier, so like...why are you voting for me again??

• townie wagon composition/it's mostly been town scumreading you (CES and Ausuka mostly, dunn's shadow vote will be there and i like loosely tr n_m)
  
• highest pine partner equity/poe
  
• 165 was when I first considered you!scum as a real possibility, felt you missed the entire point of why "Do you want to be hammered?" meant anything. Dunn already gave intent, there was really no point in giving a second intent and voting him would have hammered before town reached any sort of consensus. It just was a shit time to vote for Pine, and him trying to hammer it in as an example of cognitive dissonance was just really stupid and I was trying to highlight that.
  
• 168 annoyed me I guess, I really felt like town!me should have been clear at that point but it took longer than that for N_M to unvote me so idk, maybe it means nothing. I think I'm still in the right to BoP you for scumreading me earlier and now that my lynch is inevitably not happening due to the fact it's impossible for us to get enough votes for that, I don't think you changing your mind is particularly alignment indicative.
  
• 173 had kind of lazy/"meatball" questions (to use lycan's archaic lexicon). I think the question to RF was the only one I can really see as useful in terms of scumhunting, I guess the question to Plot is useful for defending yourself if you're town.
  
• 207 still doesn't strike me as a real read. There's a plausible town narrative there that sticks out like a sore thumb, and I even had reasons where my you/ces reads changed afterwards. Lack of followup on my question there also is kind of puzzling, I still don't really know what makes you think the resolution in dissonance is more likely scum motivated besides the fact that you previously scumread me (which is like. a valid reason I guess but I think for things like that asking yourself "is the town narrative here plausible? why is it less likely?" is just something that should always be asked when you're scumreading someone).
  
• 209 "caught for the wrong reasons" is dumb^tm but i guess not alignment indicative since people actually believe there are right/wrong reasons to scumread someone. If I'm caught because I did a shit job faking a town thought process that I thought was good, that doesn't make it "wrong" to scumread me for it. Just highlighting for ~reasons~, not particularity important for my read.

and you townreading me for "relating" to me felt it came a little late for that to make sense, most people think from their own perspective first, so why wouldn't that register earlier? it just rubs me the wrong way and seeing that you didn't originally think of it and then shoot yourself down kind of solidifies that take.

pedit: lol aight

last will basically hasn't changed, see posts after plot's intent if this goes through while i'm gone

[Katyusha]

dunn dump is like halfway through

not lynching rf unless one of singer/pine flip green, havent worked out the math if passing the lynch is effective or not in this setup (i know after a scumflip there's a valid argument to iirc) but if it's not i'll hammer that in deadline i guess, nothing else

[Katyusha]

yeah i dont want to lynch rf off of wagon comp alone

[Katyusha]

Alright it’s time for my META wall on my favorite player to META read - yes, reading dunn is genuinely that fun to me!

So, the most important thing about any sort of meta read is to understand the general personality of a player. Through playing a lot of games with him and being friends with him, the most important things to take into account while reading Dunn are:

• He’s a town player first and foremost. Dunn is the kind of person who likes to sit down and really work out the puzzle and has fun solving. When we first joined FakeGod’s D&D campaign for example, Dunn had almost no tabletop experience and yet basically built up a systems mastery in a relatively short period of time. Dunn’s engagement is also just much more higher and nuanced when he’s town, it’s clear he enjoys scum less than he does town. Putting things together, seeing how the big system works in conjunction with itself, solving and finding solutions… these are all things Dunn relishes in.
  
  
• He’s a cheeky fuck with a great sense of comedic timing despite his nearly deadpan delivery. There’s actually a lot you can tell about Dunn’s feelings of a game based on how often he makes quips on someone, assuming he has someone he bounces off of well (myself, Claire/MariaR, Zachstralkita, probably more but biggest examples off the top of my head). Usually when he’s deep in solving and trying to take a game seriously, you don’t see much of it besides in the early game. When a game is clearly a memegame or just a not hyper serious game, it’s generally more apparent when he’s having fun and engaged.
  
  
• The above two combined usually lead to Dunn incorporating his shitposts into gamesolving. This is actually the biggest tell for him - he’s more than capable of putting 2 and 2 together and faking this as scum, but what he generally has trouble with is getting the whole flow together or knowing
  when
  to try to rile people up. He’s a player who relies a lot on getting reactions out of people. What makes Dunn so enjoyable for me to read as a player is that even when he says so little (as both a lurker and spamposter, more on that later), the whole story just makes so much sense in a holistic sense
  
  
• Dunn has two distinct eras in his play history that I haven’t bothered to work out the timeline for. He used to be a spamposter, which made reading him nearly Creature-levels of easy because the flow was just so obviously there. Now he’s a lurker, which makes reading him a little bit more complicated. I’m sure a lot of you while reading the above were like “how the fuck is this relevant to
  this
  iteration of Dunn, wouldn’t that make him scum?” Thing is, Dunn is still the same person, you just have to work out the bits that are relevant and try harder to see the bigger picture. It’s not as easy as it used to be for me to read him, but I’m still confident in how it works.

So main takeaway: Cheeky fuck who gamesolves in a terse, deliberate fashion as town. Cheeky fuck who does nothing as scum. Some games where this is true:

Town

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=71230 - One year anniversary of this godforesaken memegame. Literally one of the easiest spam!Dunn reads ever though, this is like the posterchild for town!Dunn despite the awfulness of this game (Yume is a great mod lol). High levels of incorporating shitpost into gamesolving, super easy to follow trajectory, just obvtown in general.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=69868 - I misread him in the early game because I overestimated his scumplay but in the mason PT he turned into a top townread eventually (GuiltyLion outright told me to shut up so I forced myself to stop posting sitewide for 24 hours, and since I was in a really fucking strong hypomanic episode at the time that like physically hurt LMFAO, I had at least there to vent but still. Nothing against guilty tho we’re cool lol). Same thing, heavily reactive, reaction-based player who uses shitposting to gamesolve.

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=67549 - My first non-newbie game and also my first game with Dunn. My play in general was shit until the first scumflip so like ignore that LMFAO but same shit here.

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=69418 - I’m getting repetitive at this point but town REALLY wanted to lynch Dunn for no reason here (and did once I died since I had the game solved :/). Same towntells as always.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=71931 - I misread Dunn since this was a low energy game for him at first, but once I started to engage him it became clear he was town. Just linking because this is proof I can still read Dunn when the tells aren’t 100% present.

Scum

viewtopic.php?p=8774085#p8774085 - I… personally don’t count this game in my Dunn-reading record because I was like emotionally compromised half of the game and yelling at Creature because I didn’t understand his reads the other half. But this is Dunn playing a non-lurker scum game and if you ISO him it’s really apparent his cheekiness isn’t conducive to his scumhunting like. At all. He just uses it in a very different fashion that I never really bothered to pick up on. 100% a in-retrospect read and I’ll own up to that though.

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=70233 - Scumgame where Dunn basically does nothing gamesolvey. Spectated bc lycan + dunn were in the game

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=71471 - wow same thing hyperposting dunn posts a lot but doesnt do any gamesolving wowowow!

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=69447 - :thonking:

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=73968 - didnt instavig him for being useless and a lurker here because i had a tell on zachstral and the concept of lurker!dunn was confusing to me, figured he’d be readable as he posted but he never did and eventually guiltied himself so

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=72889 - super obvious scum!dunn game, i was a non-entity this game because of kraska getting harassed out of the site killing my motivation to even look at the game BUT this is a super typical scumgame for dunn


SO BASICALLY the point here is super apparent, in the games he’s town he’s obviously so and we vibe HARD together, in the games I’ve spectated he’s generally done not that much with his posting, even if he has a high volume in post count.

This is just not a read I’m wrong on. And, of course, here’s the stuff in this thread that makes me confident in this read as well.

---

Heyy

^ Typical Dunn cheekiness, liked the interactivity with CES but not enough to townlock him

Pine (4): RedFlavor, Plotinus, Not_Mafia, singersinger

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

HMmmmMM

Example of using cheekiness to gamesolve, follow-through on this shows he’s clearly trying to get a rise on Pine and read him from that

WQhat do you think of this Ausuka? You've got him pretty low in your reads

Singersinger, do you think Pine deserves to be at L-1?

intent to hammer Pine

^ all good gamesolvey questions + follow up to the above. This is town engagement, timing and relating to Ausuka shows he genuinely cares about her response and the singer question makes a lot of sense

Dunn is being a bit dodgy and

not at all playing the same way he was in White Flag.

Really bad example. And not sure it's true either, on top of that it doesn't mean anything.

Hard agree with this btw

Apparently you pushed T-Chill for lurking and posting in other games, but aren't doing that here for some reason.

Who's lurking and posting in other games?

but now that there's a wagon on me, you're interested in voting for me?

My partner thinks you are scummier than I did

^ town snark on the above question, and sidenote DUNN LISTEN TO CLAIRE ADSLfjkas;kdlfjas;ldfjas;df

I mean there isn't really a reason for that, I just haven't done it

Don't expect me to start pushing someone for lurking because you told me to

^ same here

VOTE: Plotinus

This is bad.

Singer, I'd listen to a Dunn case if you have one. I'm weakly TRing him, but I do not like that Plot vote.

Alright, then what's a good vote?

NM, Katyusha.

Both town

^ similar cheeky question and town bravado

This is just a town dunn iso. I’m sorry but i’m not wrong on this.

I got lazy on this bc five pages on google docs but like holy shit

The only reason singer’s pushing here is because of a lack of viable mislynches. I’m not getting lynched without N_M or Ausuka/Dunn/CES changing their read on me which is highly unlikely, N_M is obvious LHF and also what her partner is pushing individually, RF is who she’s pushing besides Dunn, CES/Ausuka are not viable mislynches this game and the nightkill is between the two of them (probably CES because spk but I don't think either is a bad play), she can’t afford to lose Plotinus because badreads and also widely townread, and Pine is her partner. Let’s fucking rock and roll and hammer this.

[Katyusha]

i got lazy at the end lmao i just wanted that out there

[Katyusha]

i'm not but i weakly townread them and think the way pine interacted with them is more buddying that partner indicative

{Dunn}
{CES, Ausuka}
{N_M, Plot}
---
{RF}
{Singer, Pine} - pretty sure this is just the team

[Katyusha]

Dunn what did you think about the point I made about how Singer basically needs to suspect you in this gamestate, especially if it's Singer/Pine?

[Katyusha]

Also singer hasn't really been capitalizing on my read of Singer/Pine as the team so either she's town or scum with Pine.

I'm honestly more confident in Pine!scum but we need CES and Ausuka to be on board with a pine lynch to make it happen.

[Katyusha]

i mean you dont have to read it you already know how i read you LMFAO










right

[Katyusha]

huzzah

[Katyusha]

fuck

[Katyusha]

Ces, talk to me about why you preferred singer over pine?

[Katyusha]

im annoyed too like i reread the game and felt my CHAKRAS blitzing everything just added up

[Katyusha]

probably will start with a talk with lycan because i kind of just want to lynch pine here when i probably should be reevaluating

[Katyusha]

dunn is still always town here, ausuka is usually town here

i'm less sure about ces!town and n_m!town by wagonnomics, wagon felt organic and had stupid strong resistance so probably only 1 scum here max

pine's me read still is fake, rf hasn't done anything townie to me and singer's vote being town makes the wagon townier, plot i need to look at again

^ status quo reads before i talk to lycan

[Katyusha]

Considering I've literally only seen town do it, you'll have to explain why it's scum motivated.

[Katyusha]

You really think I'd fall for a fake hammer when Plot already voted? lmao

still havent talked to lycan, if i get quickhammered powerlynch pine but i'm sure you already knew that

there's still a fuckton of work that needs to be done

[Katyusha]

Ces, talk to me about why you preferred singer over pine?

^ i feel like im getting nowhere with a reread and so i'd really like to start here

everyone just looks like theyre scum or scum in a townslot and ive never had to sort through this much garbage before

[Katyusha]

(felt, partly, #324's straying into bad faith argumentation)

see what bothers me about this specific point is that... surely Pine is experienced enough to know it's terrible reasoning and obviously not his place to speak? i felt that post alone was worth a scumclaim even pre-singer flip

at this rate mentally though it's probably better for me to not consider the world where you're the deepwolf pocketing me (which is what i'm like. mostly concerned about, especially because that's my blind spot in this game typically and why I don't get nightkilled even when my reads are otherwise generally >rand or at least decent) since you take me to lylo if at all possible (ie i don't get mislynched today or the next day if pine is town or we lynch someone else who flips town) in which case i'll acknowledge it then

my only issue with casting a vote for pine right now though is that it winds up being the same exact wagon composition that mislynched singer - if n_m is in fact the partner, how does he plan to get even more mislynches after this flip? (he has to get 3, and who is viable after a pine scumflip? I'm definitely not and even become a contender for a nk at that point because I highly doubt anyone would argue we're SvS, Dunn's not as a result, Ausuka's not... He's basically forced to lynch RF and you, and either contest my Dunn meta, pull together an Ausuka!scum case which i anticipate to be an uphill battle, or argue that I'm scum with Pine. None of those are good for scum, which means a Pine/N_M team is just hoping I get mislynched now which with you avidly against the wagon is impossible yet again unless Ausuka changes her opinion?? I have faith in her town game so I'm assuming no on that)

There's also "Pine never busses (buses?) xd" which points away from N_M here and closer to RF or you (or Plot) as the partner but I kind of feel like I have more reasons to townread both of you independently which feels gross. RF's townieness coming from independence and aimlessness in his trajectory (lol @ ces is scum > dunn/katy is the scumteam!!) fwiw but I'm not going to act like that's a hard townread. plot just feels like by play and pine's interactions they're playing the role of the third scum in a pine/x scumteam but i guess it's kind of a serendipitous outcome for plot!scum for ali to flip when e did. ftr i still don't buy that plot never picks scum here if that's not clear but theyre probably town either way

am i worrying too much about finding the second scum? it's obviously possible the singer wagon was all town but i dont know how probable that is (besides scum wanting singer alive for pushing bad reads/as a mislynch candidate after a me-flip or something, I guess?)

[Katyusha]

man i rambled into completely irrelevant stuff huh

[Katyusha]

i dont like having 4 days to figure this out

[Katyusha]

Dunn, this seems like something you'd have a good answer to:

If deadline runs out and we don't get an alternative to me by then, should I self-hammer?

So far I'm at yes because scum just shoot in {CES, Ausuka, Dunn} who are also the people I trust the most to gamesolve after I'm lynched and losing two people from that pool from a forced nl D2 is probably disadvantageous but I think most scumteams literally need my lynch to have a chance at winning

[Katyusha]

I'm probably trifling over details too much though

VOTE: Pine

this always flips scum as far as I'm concerned but I have nothing on the partner which I don't like and I'd honestly rather lynch there unless it's Plot.

I'm ruling out RF/N_M as the team for the record

[Katyusha]

Shit.

Singer's looking Town. Irritated with myself that I almost pulled the trigger earlier today.

Hammer threat rescinded, pending discussion with Mastina.

what's the thought process here

she feels like a constant to me, like literally nothing changed about my read on her from the last page or so

last post in this spamset but ^this^ is still also scummy as fuck

why would Pine?? even consider hammering singer in the first place if he was super confident that I'm scum? It's obviously the mislynch my slot needs if I'm scum and my trajectory on Singer was blatantly not of a partner's, like literally nothing about this adds up and I honestly think it was just done for show before singer flipped town. I thought it was a last ditch attempt to save a buddy or distance since neither the reasoning to scumread her or the presumable reasoning to townread her reaction made sense but whatever

[Katyusha]

Like, she's mentioned before that she enjoys playing scum a lot more than town and she's definitely been very active here, although that's also explained by the fact that this is a more serious and effort-based game than normal due to the playerlist and the team nature of the game

I like playing as both alignments and am spammy as both, if anything on-site my scumgames tend to be more inactive but that's more because I've been in depressive episodes during them rather than anything to do with the gamestate. I can link my off-site scumgame with nancy and ginngie if you need the meta or something for an example of how I seem active as scum

I think the easiest way to read me is by how shortsighted my trajectory is. I'm not good at predicting people as scum so I have a tendency to not be good at faking the reads I should be faking. I think, for example, scum!me townreads Pine by his wagon but then I'd have to defend his awful posting right now which would just feel extremely awkward and noticeable. I'm not sure how I am tonally as scum (probably not very good but all of the games I've been in have been bad indicators). In the referenced game above I basically got guiltied because I was forced by gamestate to lynch someone I previously stated as a strong townread (game was in evens, the lynchbait I wanted to lynch had zero momentum despite not being townie at all) and did a bad job moving my vote over in terms of waffling (and also because nancy suggested bad night actions but i can't really talk because i was v/la during that night lol).

Lycan did a massive gamesolve that I'm leafing over through right now, one conclusion we both agreed on that I feel needs emphasis is that pine!town = n_m!scum almost always so keep that in mind if we get to LYLO.

[Katyusha]

Actually one thing that's important:

I would like Alisae and Plot to tell me where they would be after I flip town in terms of reads.

[Katyusha]

Pine, can you explain how singer's posts after your intent were "towny as all shit" because even in retrospect I legitimately do not see it.

[Katyusha]

Btw, Mastina is spinning wild conspiracy theories about you and Kat in our thread, about you two working together to push singer as a cw to Kat, then discrediting the Katyusha wagon.

Also, when did this begin? Like which post/around what timestamp if we're allowed to/what point in the gamestate

[Katyusha]

How? That's an entirely fakeable post. The meta on Dunn is just flat out wrong, the change on singer could be interesting/meaningful I guess but it's nothing I think that's impossible for singer to post as scum.

[Katyusha]

Your point is?

[Katyusha]

I'm not prosecuting a case, I'm trying to understand why you read singer a certain way because your thought process doesn't look natural or genuine whatsoever. If we had more time I would have still done this before singer's flip (I even attempted to but, as always, you give shit non-answers)

[Katyusha]

Scum can whiteknight mislynches and nothing about why you even gave intent to hammer (your top two scumreads are pushing the same lynch and you want to

hammer

?? in what universe is that good play??) made sense in the first place so I'm trying to figure out if I should even consider the off-chance your slot is blacklist worthy town.

If me trying to sort you hurts your feelings or something I'm more than happy to drop the issue and just prodge until you're lynched. Until then I don't want a single loose end tied up and I don't want to be wrong on a second lynch.

[Katyusha]

Bolded is what you're pretending not to see.

No, I see it plainly. That doesn't change the fact that you've literally been gunning for my lynch the whole game and called n_m my partner for ??? reasons (yes, i know what you

said

those reasons were, it doesn't change the fact they're outright terrible). If you're going to hammer a wagon being pushed by your scumreads you better have a good reason to explain why scum are bussing.

Plus those dont even look agenda driven lmao

Is it weird to be frustrated that a townread scumreads you? What was wrong with that dunnstral vote after singer townread me and felt Dunn was playing differently to WF? Like again completely fakeable but that doesn't mean that it's townie. Nothing about those posts were pingy or townie.

[Katyusha]

Because it's cheap and easy towncred and Dunn was going to hammer anyway because the wagon composition is primarily town? This is a dumb line of questioning and you know that.

What I want to know is the substantial stuff that actually lets me tell the difference between scum whiteknighting/trying to get towncred off a lynch and town.

Why

was her content townie? You've literally just said it

was

townie and pointed to a post. I am obviously looking for something deeper.

[Katyusha]

Then why ask why scum!you gives intent if you know it's a bad line of questioning...

[Katyusha]

It's funny because you're grilling me for also changing my mind about my read on you, lmao

But, no, I don't think you're understanding what you're getting at because I understand

what

your trajectory is, I want to know

why

your trajectory went that way. Because I don't see WHAT about the post you linked made your read into a satisfied hard townread.

[Katyusha]

I'm really regretting not lolhammering you when you were begging me to.

[Katyusha]

also giving intent on a soft tr (you said at one point you were scumreading her earlier so i don't actually know where it went from scumread > townread > scumread > townread) because of a few offputting posts feels a bit nonsensical when your hard scumreads are the ones pushing that lynch

[Katyusha]

Of course I don't have to agree with it, I just want to fuckign KNOW the logic holy fucking shit

[Katyusha]

like in what world is "Why did you townread this post" an absurd fucking question

[Katyusha]

The solution here Pine is to explain to me that it's 4 and not 5 by explaining to me what addition is or drawing a picture.

Me: 4? How did you get 4?
You: I already told you the answer is 4! Fuck you!
Me: I don't get it, please explain.

This can easily be solved by, oh I don't know, drawing a picture?

Here are two dots: '', and here's another two: ''. Now count them - wow, it's four!

Now you said 296 was townie to you. Cool! I explained why even in retrospect that post looked entirely fakeable and felt why I explained that way. I want to know what about that post you found townie. Draw the fucking picture. If you want to make the thread toxic or just be a steaming pile of garbage that's your prerogative, just give a non-answer like "gut" or something and I'll get off your case. I won't even ask the inevitable followup of "well what about it pinged your gut" I'll literally shut the fuck up because you obviously don't give a shit about the possibility we've just been tvt'ing the entire fucking game and letting scum walk to their win because you can't reevaluate or engage with people you scumread. I think the likelier answer is that you're not an incompetent town player who relies on misrepping people's play and has the ego the size of a fucking train, but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong!

And fucking lol about "I don't trust people who change their mind" that's LITERALLY why you're pushing me in the first place like actually fuck out of here

And Plot, I'm glad to know that Ali is at least willing to reevaluate Pine if I'm mislynched. I wasn't sure how strong that meta read was and the possibility Pine was town is honestly 90% of why this game has been mentally taxing on me. Lycan offered to replace out but I refuse on principle because i think I need the experience dealing with players like this to become a better player. Or I might just stop playing Mafia if Pine is town here. I haven't really decided yet.

[Katyusha]

felt why I explained that way. I

*explained why I felt that way

[Katyusha]

Dunn has literally played with me in half of my games he KNOWS this is my town game holy shit

[Katyusha]

Someone hammer Katy then

why do you not care about figuring out which of us are scum

[Katyusha]

Mastina's suddenly worried about him being super lowkey scummy, active-lurking and ghosting onto wagons which might go somewhere.

he's also v/la :/

That's what the flip is for

oh fuck off

[Katyusha]

it's a trap, decentralizing pressure only hurts town's ability to scumhunt

[Katyusha]

i mean

so does misrepresenting people's play and patronizing them but lmao

[Katyusha]

alright fuck it

this game is actively hurting my mental health and making me a more toxic person so it's probably better if i distance myself

@NSG, please swap me with Lycan

Pine, I'm still 100% serious about blacklisting your play if your town here. If you're scum, fine, getting on my nerves is an entirely valid strategy and I'm probably just not at a good place mentally for that but if you're town and you play like this I'm not dealing with that.

Deuces.

[Katyusha]

plus it's probably better for the thread, lycan isn't a spamfucker like I am

[Katyusha]

sigh

it feels nice to have your play grossly misrepped and to constantly feel like you're yelling at a bunch of walls when you make any effort to move the gamestate along. sorry for the mislynches and the apparent ate (i never tried to appeal to anyone and i replaced out specifically because i didnt want to feel like i was resorting to that by being frustrated by pine refusing to engage me like a person) but i still stand by my play. hell before the pine fiasco i had correct reads (my lynchpool being ces/pine, and plot only after meta'ing which i never did since i took mastina's townread at face value)

town was never winning this because bloccing with just dunn and ausuka was never enough. was never going to see ces scum until lylo as a result - he had an awesome opening to finesse lycan and i. we probably lost as soon as singer got lynched instead of pine

town probably also would have had a better chance if i had just stayed in, i wasn't expecting rf to replace out and i think cheeky and i would have probably been able to engage and townread each other. rf doing nothing and having garbage reads kind of agitated me into replacing out so...

sorry if i should save this for post game but this was literally one of the most miserable games of mafia i've had the displeasure of playing. sorry to nsg and dino for being a bitch 90% of the time, your modding was at least on point.

[Katyusha]

Prob should work on that.

Meh, I feel like people should realize that when you're uninformed that your reads will change based on the events of the game. Whenever I make sudden flips like that I'm always careful to make sure I explain why my reads are changing and I feel this game was no exception considering I feel like 90% of my D1 posting felt like I was just explaining what I was doing and asking why it was scummy and having it fall on deaf ears.

With singer (the mislynch was obviously terrible and 100% my fault for deciding to use the double vote thing when I already knew it was a trap in the first place but that's besides the point. only ml this game that actually hurt town imo even if the n_m lynch did make cheeky misvote I guess), I tend to make personality profiles for people as I play with them and just felt that from singer's posting she'd have an okay scumgame and probably doesn't scumclaim by tone in her posts? I don't really know if verifying that is worth doing for this game and I don't really base reads off of cold meta when someone doesn't seem like a lynchbaity or exceptionally quirky player which singer definitely isn't. Honestly don't even know if that value call is right but it didn't even tie into my reasoning for my vote so double checking that really wouldn't have impacted anything...

[Katyusha]

for the record while i will probably be distancing myself from pine in future games for sanity's sake i don't think less of anyone as a result of this game

[Katyusha]

That's fair! No one is going to have perfect reads and no one should expect others to, that goes without saying.

It's just frustrating though when people don't want to expand on their issues with said flips (eg why it seems opportunistic rather than genuine), which was the crux of my annoyance with Pine's slot.

[Katyusha]

Which reads? You've essentially given both TR and SR for me.

Which is it, and why aren't you pushing it?

It’s currently a scumread.

Trajectory basically went

Scumreading redflavor for draft reasons, don’t agree with n_m’s vote on you and usually syncing with him is how I read him. Singer is townie and Ploti is maybetown from the draft but otherwise null. Didn’t really like how CES interacted with you but I was ok with his dunn interaction. 1 townread isn’t the sexist wagon composition and I don’t really align myself with the reasoning that hard, all my other townreads that I felt more confident were off it

After talking with Ausuka and looking a little bit into RF’s meta that turned into a townlean, and I don’t think n_m scumreads me as scum since he knows I’m usually a difficult mislynch as town. Wagon composition turns townier and I mostly nullread you so no point in pushing against the wagon when I can just sort you off of your reaction

Your push on me feels like scum though, I think my thought process here is pretty transparent and I don’t really see why this doesn’t make sense. Treating me like I’m fanning the flames subtly when I outright said “Wouldn’t really care if this is town but the wagon just feels dumb” since there’s L-1 like less than 24 hours into the game is pretty disingenuous

Like do you think I ask the questions I ask just for fun?

I’m obviously trying to get somewhere and when I looked at my reads you had more scum equity than I originally thought

Dude, I'm about to be lynched and flipped.

Scum!me self-hammers and says fuck off, or at least doesn't piss off the one person who's shown any kind of resistance to lynching me.

I've made my peace here, and I'm scumhunting. Sitting down to dinner now, I'll go through every player after dinner.

---

help me see why this doesnt match up with what i am doing, this is exactly what went on in my head and it makes perfect sense to me

Well, for starters you're only voting for CES.

Because voting for you would hammer you? Do you want to be hammered?

---

For example, she keeps going on and on about how this is scum!Pine just attacking her without reason or explanation...yet I don't see a vote on me.

again, do you want to be hammered? Right now?

and AGAIN, interacting with people changed my reads, I townread not_mafia's interaction with me, by poe that makes you more likely scum

like how does that not make sense

Pine is saying it’s scummy that I’m not voting him while scumreading him while he’s a l-1

????

---

Shit.

Singer's looking Town. Irritated with myself that I almost pulled the trigger earlier today.

Hammer threat rescinded, pending discussion with Mastina.

what's the thought process here

she feels like a constant to me, like literally nothing changed about my read on her from the last page or so

Obviously, something she did set me off, and then she allayed my concerns. Preeeetty clear on my process there.

Obviously, something she did set me off, and then she allayed my concerns. Preeeetty clear on my process there.

Right, what are the things that allayed your concerns and why did they?

The former is easily answered and I can kind of see where you are getting at but the value call doesn't jive with me.

---

I want a Not_Mafia lynch above all else.

This "vote everyone" nonsense is blatantly scummy.

VOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Katyusha

Plotinus doesn't take a scum role while Alisae takes the Town role. That doesn't happen. Don't be dumb.

Considering I've literally only seen town do it, you'll have to explain why it's scum motivated.

---

Spoiler: Literally an entire page of me just asking you to answer a simple fucking question I STILL don't have an answer to post-game

How? That's an entirely fakeable post. The meta on Dunn is just flat out wrong, the change on singer could be interesting/meaningful I guess but it's nothing I think that's impossible for singer to post as scum.

"Entirely fakeable"

Singer flipped Town

Your point is?

That you're prosecuting a case against flipped Town

I'm not prosecuting a case, I'm trying to understand why you read singer a certain way because your thought process doesn't look natural or genuine whatsoever. If we had more time I would have still done this before singer's flip (I even attempted to but, as always, you give shit non-answers)

I sensed a mislynch coming and moved off of it. I was right, while you kept on lynching.

Remind me how I'm the one on trial here?

Scum can whiteknight mislynches and nothing about why you even gave intent to hammer (your top two scumreads are pushing the same lynch and you want to

hammer

?? in what universe is that good play??) made sense in the first place so I'm trying to figure out if I should even consider the off-chance your slot is blacklist worthy town.

If me trying to sort you hurts your feelings or something I'm more than happy to drop the issue and just prodge until you're lynched. Until then I don't want a single loose end tied up and I don't want to be wrong on a second lynch.

Yeah I just don't see why you think that makes me scum...

Which is frustrating because Ranmaru and I both think you're town.

unvote: Katy
vote: Dunnstral

These both strike me as SUPER agenda-driven. I've been having a hard time reading singer all game, but this is setting off alarm bells.

Intent to hammer.

Singer, please give a final readslists and comments.

Bolded is what you're pretending not to see.

Bolded is what you're pretending not to see.

No, I see it plainly. That doesn't change the fact that you've literally been gunning for my lynch the whole game and called n_m my partner for ??? reasons (yes, i know what you

said

those reasons were, it doesn't change the fact they're outright terrible). If you're going to hammer a wagon being pushed by your scumreads you better have a good reason to explain why scum are bussing.

Plus those dont even look agenda driven lmao

Is it weird to be frustrated that a townread scumreads you? What was wrong with that dunnstral vote after singer townread me and felt Dunn was playing differently to WF? Like again completely fakeable but that doesn't mean that it's townie. Nothing about those posts were pingy or townie.

So you disagree with my reasons for SRing her

Even though you were voting there

I was satisfied when she posted better content, and eased off

She flips Town

Why does scum!me just keep the vote?

PE: Bite me, Dunn. Given a Town and Scum Ali/Plot don't go Town/Scum

Because it's cheap and easy towncred and Dunn was going to hammer anyway because the wagon composition is primarily town? This is a dumb line of questioning and you know that.

What I want to know is the substantial stuff that actually lets me tell the difference between scum whiteknighting/trying to get towncred off a lynch and town.

Why

was her content townie? You've literally just said it

was

townie and pointed to a post. I am obviously looking for something deeper.

Yes.

I agree.

This is a dumb line of questioning.

Then why ask why scum!you gives intent if you know it's a bad line of questioning...

*eyeroll*

I was trolling you, Kat. THIS is a bad line of questioning. You're grilling me and splitting hairs over a position I held for about five seconds, going from soft TR to suspicion to satisfied hard TR. It's not rocket surgery.

She made a couple of suspicious posts, I got nervous, and her subsequent behavior calmed me down and solidified my original read.

Stop being obtuse. My manufactured scumreads are way more coordinated than that. It's arguably the biggest tell I haven't been able to sand away.

It's funny because you're grilling me for also changing my mind about my read on you, lmao

But, no, I don't think you're understanding what you're getting at because I understand

what

your trajectory is, I want to know

why

your trajectory went that way. Because I don't see WHAT about the post you linked made your read into a satisfied hard townread.

I'm really regretting not lolhammering you when you were begging me to.

also giving intent on a soft tr (you said at one point you were scumreading her earlier so i don't actually know where it went from scumread > townread > scumread > townread) because of a few offputting posts feels a bit nonsensical when your hard scumreads are the ones pushing that lynch

It's funny because you're grilling me for also changing my mind about my read on you, lmao

But, no, I don't think you're understanding what you're getting at because I understand

what

your trajectory is, I want to know

why

your trajectory went that way. Because I don't see WHAT about the post you linked made your read into a satisfied hard townread.

You aren't required to AGREE with my logic. I've explained myself, and am quite done with this absurd interrogation.

Of course I don't have to agree with it, I just want to fuckign KNOW the logic holy fucking shit

like in what world is "Why did you townread this post" an absurd fucking question

like in what world is "Why did you townread this post" an absurd fucking question

In a world where I've explained it several times and you've rejected the explanation. Then asking AGAIN becomes absurd.

I SEE YOU SAID 2 + 2 = 5

Yup

AND THEN YOU CHANGED YOIR ANSWER TO FOUR

Yeah I miscounted

BUT WHY DID YOU SAY FIVE

I miscounted. By the way you were saying five too, and didn't figure it out

BUT YOU SAID FIVE AT FIRST! I DON'T TRUST PEOPLE WHO CHANGE THEIR MINDS

Dude I miscounted. Also, we know the answer is four now. I reassessed and got the right answer, while you derped your way into saying five the whole time

YES BUT WHY DID YOU SAY FIVE THEN FOUR. EXPLAIN IT AGAIN SLOWLY

The solution here Pine is to explain to me that it's 4 and not 5 by explaining to me what addition is or drawing a picture.

Me: 4? How did you get 4?
You: I already told you the answer is 4! Fuck you!
Me: I don't get it, please explain.

This can easily be solved by, oh I don't know, drawing a picture?

Here are two dots: '', and here's another two: ''. Now count them - wow, it's four!

Now you said 296 was townie to you. Cool! I explained why even in retrospect that post looked entirely fakeable and felt why I explained that way. I want to know what about that post you found townie. Draw the fucking picture. If you want to make the thread toxic or just be a steaming pile of garbage that's your prerogative, just give a non-answer like "gut" or something and I'll get off your case. I won't even ask the inevitable followup of "well what about it pinged your gut" I'll literally shut the fuck up because you obviously don't give a shit about the possibility we've just been tvt'ing the entire fucking game and letting scum walk to their win because you can't reevaluate or engage with people you scumread. I think the likelier answer is that you're not an incompetent town player who relies on misrepping people's play and has the ego the size of a fucking train, but I'm more than willing to be proven wrong!

And fucking lol about "I don't trust people who change their mind" that's LITERALLY why you're pushing me in the first place like actually fuck out of here

And Plot, I'm glad to know that Ali is at least willing to reevaluate Pine if I'm mislynched. I wasn't sure how strong that meta read was and the possibility Pine was town is honestly 90% of why this game has been mentally taxing on me. Lycan offered to replace out but I refuse on principle because i think I need the experience dealing with players like this to become a better player. Or I might just stop playing Mafia if Pine is town here. I haven't really decided yet.

---

I don't mean to be petty but the issue here isn't you agreeing or disagreeing with me - it's that every time I did anything I was either ignored or basically told that I was an idiot and the question itself ignored. You thinking this is an issue about the thickness of my skin is exactly why I don't have any interest in playing Mafia with you for the time being because our personalities just don't align - maybe it's a byproduct of the bullshit I've gone through for basically my entire life and seeing my hobbies as a way to break away from that but I generally hold expectations over people and have zero tolerance for bs like this when I'd otherwise not give a shit in a similar real life situation. I need to be able to interact with people when I play Mafia because that just seems like how the game should be played (??), so playstyles that think "engagement" is just going like "ur scum xd" and feel that their scumreads are a good reason to not interact with people in good faith are just not fun for me to play with. Sorry but I play Mafia for fun and you're not fun for me to play with. And I say this while other town players have disagreed with me in this game and obviously other games and I'd still play with them again. Agreement and disagreement is a natural part of the gamestate but that's not a reason to throw a game when our TvT was entirely preventable by not misrepresenting my play or actually bothering to have a conversation with me in good faith.

I realize this looks petty to outline but I think it's only fair you know why I feel this way because you still think it's something personal when it's not and that's basically why I took the time to write this out anyway.

pedit: I think it's like team mafia and your group is considered to have a win and a loss?

pedit: if it makes you feel better alisae i thought you were scummy because you townread our slot and didn't make any mention or factor my wall on dunn's meta into your read. it made your read seem a lot less genuine to me but i was concerned it might be because you wouldn't care about my read on Dunn if you were town in the first place. i know i wasn't in the game at the time and lycan didn't push this angle but that was the reason I had in my head and in discord to consider you (not your slot, I scumread some of plot's content as well but let you come in on a clean slate). Had I not replaced out I probably would have asked you to dispute it and read you off of that (and even suggested Lycan do the same). I completely empathize with you otherwise though if that's not clear

[Katyusha]

I’m glad we agree then? I literally just said i understood it wasn’t personal or malicious on your part, I just dislike the way you play mafia and not you as a person haha

And yeah definitely seconding that CES played the situation fantastically

[Katyusha]

this was legitimately one of the worst played town games i have ever seen