Mini Normal 2016 | Otters vs. Penguins | Endgame

[Nosferatu]

VOTE: performer

ego and 6 is my fav number

[Nosferatu]

@BBT - are you gonna actually give a reason for your push? You are creeping out of ~reaction testing territory imo. What do you make of Invis and the other guy wagoning you instead?

y so serious?

[Nosferatu]

The dude called for more votes on my wagon like 2-3 times. I’m allowed to ask lol

not saying you couldn't

[Nosferatu]

Gustavo: "I’m down for a fast day. I’m getting ready to play a game that ends in 36 hours so I need practice"
FOS: gustavo
This post just screams of suspicion. There's a difference between too fast & too slow.
How can you say this and think We can get something substantial in a fast day of 36 hours?
That's like saying "oh let's quickhammer." If you get lucky, you get a scum flip, if you get unlucky, you get a town pr flip.

thats a little hurr durr dontcha think?

[Nosferatu]

not saying you couldn't

Was there a point you were trying to make here?

its your tone

Oh yeah Nosferatu you got any reads yet or not? (and if so can you give us some?)

no but ill read the past few pages and get back to you

[Nosferatu]

Im actually kind of inclined to agree. Last time I played with Town!BBT, they pushed a mislynch (me, grrrr) several times, but at least provided reasoning.
VOTE: BBT.

thats literally just not a reason to vote someone. RVS wagon is not a mislynch.

There may be something that tells me you're town - but I want to ignore it for now.

OK now my vote is serious.

ok uhh, back it up, why does scum say that? They don't, move on. Withholding information argument is dumb and never applicable in like 90% of circumstances.

Im actually kind of inclined to agree. Last time I played with Town!BBT, they pushed a mislynch (me, grrrr) several times, but at least provided reasoning.

VOTE: BBT.

BBT - strongest scum/town read, why, and +rand on it?

now this could be scum... You really expect a reason for pushing a wagon before page 5?

VOTE: teacher

^^

Meta this. Meta that. Meta Everything. Meta is not a good scum-hunting tool. PEOPLE CAN MANIPULATE THEIR META. Stop it. Stop. It. Now.

I agree with this. But then why this:

Unfortunately, secret alts are all over the place. I'd sooner policy lynch em all!

bad post
VOTE: GEO

bad post.

VOTE: BV

107 is a commentary. Provides no information, communicates nothing, asks nothing, leads to nothing. So why make such a long post?

wtf are the votes in this game. We voting for commentary now?

Ok I also wanna join in on this 1 scum 1 town read thing we're doing.

Townread: Lefty - Can really follow the thought process in a lot of his posts, and I like his reaction to BBT's wagon.

Scumread: BBT - Says stuff with no reason, and then when asked to elaborate he just ignores them or makes a snarky comment. It's probably me having a personal gripe, but withholding information from town is one of the scummiest things you can do imo, and this is a prime example.

Pedit: Key word: Withholding. You're keeping information that could help the town away from the town, just to strengthen your push on Lefty (which isn't even a thing but still the point stands) I may have said hiding at some point, in that case I apologize as I meant withholding.

ok uhh, its not one of the scummiest things you can do (see above)
its probably a personal gripe. That's what it looks like.

Jesus christ you just love using OMGUS don't you? Learn some respect jesus

It's definitely a personal gripe. That's what it looks like.

VOTE: ByronVilla
this is scum

bro

I play to win, not to survive.

you know you don't really have to choose. One is pretty in the way of the other.

VOTE: Invisibility His just opportunistically jumping on what wagon may take off. I see no real thought process of his own.

his thought process is the problem

it's like that stuff about calling BBT scum for being "an ass" i don't like

case in point

Bbt: asked people to follow him in the wagon on lefty - see below for the read on lefty. Said byron was scum. I don't see why. He's null more than anything to me.

Byron: not sure what to make of his interaction with bbt on pgs 5-6.

this just looks like you don't know who's on the right side of history yet

[Nosferatu]

{invis, GEO, performer} can go.

[Nosferatu]

Is this attitude of lynching players who are likely bad Town instead of scum common here?

yeah...

FR he pretty much just regurgitated commentary that’s been hashed out pages ago. The only original take was calling out GEO.

^^mood

[Nosferatu]

{invis, GEO, performer} can go.

i'm surprised teacher isn't in this.

he's clearly a newb ill wait it out before i look again

[Nosferatu]

for the record they're not ordered merely color coded

BlueBloodedToffee

ByronVilla

Lefty

Gosrir Elmer Odels

Nosferatu

Garmr
Invisibility
Gustavo
Tchill13

Tommy Egan

Performer

teacher

can you order them?
I'm colorblind

[Nosferatu]

oh ok they were basically already in order

[Nosferatu]

I don't have a strong enough reason to town read Performer (and thus fight his wagon) but that post isn't enough for me to understand how he is the leading wagon either. He needs to get in this game so we can get more from him.

his interpretation wrt to the byron debacle looks like he's trying to play it too safe. he should have had some stance on one of you two.

[Nosferatu]

performer is my top scumread?

I didn't know that

[Nosferatu]

He did. He said he saw that I thought Byron was scum but didn't see why.

Is that a stance to you? That doesn't mean anything. He made no conclusions as to the probable alignments of either of you. "I dunno" is not a stance.

[Nosferatu]

I was on his slot since before he became a wagon. I just left it there. Placing a vote is more important than where it actually is.

[Nosferatu]

I'm saying lynching Performer D1 is sub-optimal play (almost regardless of alignment) because we have nothing else to work with atterwards. I'm saying that anyone who is town on that wagon needs to seriously question the motives/reasons behind it.

obviously this performer wagon is leading to a lynch

its page 18 bro pull it together.

[Nosferatu]

The intention is clearly there and now I have kicked up a fuss about it nobody will be leaving is easily/quietly.

I have forced people on the wagon to defend their position on it. They had the chance to get off - and didn't take it. Now they're committed.

yeah ok but there was no reason to do this. People don't get lynched on page 18.

[Nosferatu]

ok just cause it happened in one game 6 years ago where the setup practically incentivized it doesn't mean it happens enough to actually worry about

maybe stop making headass pendantic arguments to justify you kicking up dirt on a push for no fucking reason whatsoever. You seemingly intentionally attempting to force a committal on a wagon that you shouldn't even really give a shit about is not town motivated.

[Nosferatu]

Performer (4): Nosferatu, Tchill13, Gustavo, wavemode
Invisibility (4): Garmr, Performer, ByronVilla, BlueBloodedToffee
Gosrir Elmer Odels (1): Invisibility

how does this make you guys feel?

[Nosferatu]

Performer (4): Nosferatu, Tchill13, Gustavo, wavemode
Invisibility (4): Garmr, Performer, ByronVilla, BlueBloodedToffee
Gosrir Elmer Odels (1): Invisibility

how does this make you guys feel?

Considering how hard bbt was trying to get the teacher wagon back, I don’t like his vote on invisiblity. I feel
Like he completely abandoned it and went with a popular counter just to keep performer from being lead wagon.

that's sort of against the point of the things I chose to include.

The two leading wagons are not cross-voting.

[Nosferatu]

be careful scumreading gus

you might just be a closet bigot

[Nosferatu]

That’s also interesting but could be nothing

well it means they're not scum together.

[Nosferatu]

Yeah, of the 4 on my wagon, disliking Nos the most. Added to sr . Feels like he's sliding by and just keeping his read there on me.

gonna do something about it?

[Nosferatu]

That’s also interesting but could be nothing

well it means they're not scum together.

How?

Well if they were both scum they would probably cross-vote to distance from one another. They're not, one is on a vanity wagon, and thus they're probably not scum together.

[Nosferatu]

Using my opinion on game speed isn't bad logic, it is straight up stupidity as my opinion is completely unrelated to my alignment.

are you completely aware of the game we're playing my dude?

I feel like you're not reading the game properly when I see comments like this. Gus has fully defended his position as being based on content, as has Wave. Nos refused to leave the wagon despite claiming that Peformer isn't even his top scum read.

I didn't refuse...it's not like anyone asked me to and I said "nah fam"

I'm not satisfied with what this wagon has gotten so far and quite frankly I don't even think it'll give much more

VOTE: GEO <-- not my top scumread either if you were wondering.

[Nosferatu]

are you completely aware of the game we're playing my dude?

Yes I am. Are you?

ok but if you were completely lucid you'd know that opinions that you give are alignment indicative... This game is entirely based on judging people based on opinions they have on the game state and actions they make over perceived opinions

you're pretending like opinions and alignment are completely unrelated which is like the farthest thing from the truth.

[Nosferatu]

are you completely aware of the game we're playing my dude?

Yes I am. Are you?

ok but if you were completely lucid you'd know that opinions that you give are alignment indicative... This game is entirely based on judging people based on opinions they have on the game state and actions they make over perceived opinions

you're pretending like opinions and alignment are completely unrelated which is like the farthest thing from the truth.

I’m thinking you don’t know. Because the post I made and performer FOS’d me for is completely unrelated to my alignment and anyone who tries to use it against me is straight up scum imo.

your judgement is clouded. I know what you're talking about. Performer's FOS on you for it wasn't that out there. Promoting a shorter deadline is not completely unrelated to alignment. You flipped out for literally no reason. It's the same concept behind scum self-hammering to cut discussion short.

[Nosferatu]

Promoting a shorter deadline is not completely unrelated to alignment

Yes it is.

obviously you're delusional. You have no sense of objectivity whatsoever. Have fun with this game.

[Nosferatu]

eh that's a little excessive

well whatever agree to disagree y'know?

[Nosferatu]

NOS, Gus would be my best bet IF scum had one good player.

that's your guess for the good player? doubt.

[Nosferatu]

oh well thank you

[Nosferatu]

Im not asking you who it is yet, but can you elaborate on why you arent pushing your strongest scumread? Also, way back when you said that Invis's first vote on GEO was a bad post, but now youre there on a fairly bald vote. Why?

I'm not pushing one cause I don't have one, not concealing my top scumread for ~reasons~, that would be weird and dumb

As a general rule I don't really join a wagon cause its my top scumread, generally weigh each scum read equally in that I don't care which one gets lynched first. That's not to say there's not an order, but I don't really have a strict order as to my scumreads right now.

I'm not voting GEO for that bad post in the past nor am I voting him for any new reasons. It's a pressure vote to help sort. Questioning him is unnecessary.

If the performer wagon wouldn't have stalled like it has I would think pretty clearly that invis is scum. I feel pretty good that performer maybe scum.

See, you can't say that because BBT forced the wagon into stalling.

[Nosferatu]

You should have posted stanzas separately if you wanted to really help

[Nosferatu]

I’m not sure how MS handles this tell, but seeing as how Gus is nearly at his post count on D1 as his recently completely scum game, I sort of doubt he’s scum here. I’m of the type that don’t believe scum (minus a very select number of players IME) can maintain that sort of activity.

It gets surprisingly easy if you complain about the same thing over and over again.

@Nos - do you have scum reads? Like your philosophy is cool and zen af but you haven’t expressed any sort of suspicion that I remember thus far.

I mentioned them earlier

[Nosferatu]

Oh look Nos still literally providing nothing. I know that's rich coming from me but active lurking is 100% worse than not posting at all. The fact people are town reading this active lurking genuinely concerns me.

2/3 of those aren't what i consider active lurking

you would lynch byron? why?

[Nosferatu]

Oh look Nos still literally providing nothing. I know that's rich coming from me but active lurking is 100% worse than not posting at all. The fact people are town reading this active lurking genuinely concerns me.

2/3 of those aren't what i consider active lurking

you would lynch byron? why?

Show me what isn't active lurking? And can I get that reads list I asked for?

the last two. One of them is actively trying to speculate about the alignment of relevant players with another person, and the other one is attempting to provoke someone with a scumread on me. I don't think either of those are active lurking.

Active lurking implies that I'm not reacting to the gamestate and giving information on it which isn't really true I think.

Oh and BV would be a half decent info lynch with a possibility that it's a scum slot aswell

Top 10 useless fucking answers
No shit. Why do you think there's a possibility that it's a scum slot.

Oh and BV would be a half decent info lynch with a possibility that it's a scum slot aswell

UNVOTE: Teacher
VOTE: ByronVilla

??? What happened?

[Nosferatu]

Also, saying you"re applying pressure with a vote kind of relieves the 'pressure' you're supposed to be applying.

this is true to a pretty good degree and i was aware of this, but someone asked so I was obligated to respond.

[Nosferatu]

I'm not trying to approach this game from a readlist perspective like I usually do, but I'll do it once to give perspective

{Tchill, Lefty, Byron, Gus}
{BBT, Performer}
{Invis}
{GEO, teacher}
{wave, garmr, tommy}

Normally I start from the middle and branch out but I wanted to start from the bottom and grow up instead, so the bottom rung isn't necessarily just the scummiest of the earth to me, but instead they're people that haven't shown themselves as town, since the number of things I'm juggling at once right now sorta necessitates townhunting in most of my games.

pedit: see i knew you would ask that so ^^^

Then you lie. Or withhold information.

Unless you're scum, then you can just spout some shit that you think will look town.

you have a point, but if there enough votes on a slot that they're in danger of getting lolhammered, the knowledge that there is a pressure vote is not exactly gamebreaking. I also didn't ask him any questions and he's aware I stuck on performer's wagon just because I could, so in this context it didn't really matter.

[Nosferatu]

Sorry didn’t realize this was a newbie game. I thought experienced players could figure things out like that

experienced players vote null slots because information is more important than acting out on personal grudges, but here we are.

[Nosferatu]

town ascetic is a very possible role. It's just not particularly useful.

[Nosferatu]

I was at college at this point.

Are you outside of the US? I assumed that we were the same age.

[Nosferatu]

I was under the impression that

how did i accidentally type assumed

[Nosferatu]

So his previous scumreads are in the middle of the list So i'm just going to assume that means wave,tommy and I are null judging from his wording. So nothing really changed. Everything else feels fake a bland here. Nothing in his previous post indicate a thought process that leads up to this. Also would like to mention he positioned himself where he could vote Invis yesterday if needed but didn't touch it. He also barely interacted with the invis wagon and put himself in a position to lynch it if need be.

Are you saying I had invis in my scumreads? How did I position myself to vote invis?

[Nosferatu]

4.Post like 484 seem to lack drive he doesn't captalise on it.

idk what you mean by this.

Nos why did you sr garmr? Garm , I think nos is town - my read on him hasn't changed since I last posted about him.

The posts on pg 38 are alarming. Hmm.

I just don't townread him. I'm in several games and am occupied irl atm, scumhunting is a pain, I'm townhunting in 3/4 of my games rn.

[Nosferatu]

Good Morning!

I daid I was done with Mafia for a while but apparently i just can't stay away.

Nice vote BBT.

oh shit
that's a name i havent seen in a game for a minute now

VOTE: wavemode

[Nosferatu]

@nos thoughts on byron and bbt?

It comes off as a TvT to me. If either of them were scum it would be byron just off of really cursory VCA, but I'd rather say TvT.

[Nosferatu]

i will have to ask some friends after the game is over but i feel like to an experienced eye byron's play this game should be very obviously town. it even lines up with his town meta, if you care about that sort of thing

wave has reached #1 TR status btw.

ytho

@nos thoughts on byron and bbt?

It comes off as a TvT to me. If either of them were scum it would be byron just off of really cursory VCA, but I'd rather say TvT.

this is good. Now why did you vote Wave? Teacher is looking like scum here imo.

It doesn't really matter to me. wave posted more recently iirc.

Nos why is wave scum?

idk i voted them to see what they'd do but they didn't really care?

ALSO.... Garmr tried to push nos and that was largely ignored. Thats very interesting.

give it a sec.

[Nosferatu]

You had Invis in your scumreads earlier on in the day then you gave no indication that you town read him or his position changed. You positioned yourself to vote invis because you could default back to your earlier reads if you needed to also in that position you could wait to see what happens. You would think a town nos would interact with the wagon of a scumread/former scum read, instead of watching to see what happens.

you don't remember what town nos is like then lol

I would never position myself to vote someone as scum, especially given the playstyle I've decided to go with this game. I'm townhunting, so I'll vote legit anyone as long as they're not in my stronger townreads. Positioning myself to vote invis is unnecessary because I put myself in a position to vote literally anyone pretty early on in this game. In fact, I was actually planning on voting invis, but he got hammered when I was afk.

I also did give an indication that his position changed.

You asked the question but didn't push it any further. You don't seem bothered if you get info out of them or not. You haven't done anything with the questions you asked to form any reads.

I don't really ask questions for the purpose of forming reads. Pretty rarely at least.

the post in question isn't even really directed at anyone in particular, and I continued the line of thought (pushing it further), so I'm not sure why you chose it to go with this point. I'm sure there are other posts I've made that would go along with this better.

Didn't really address the rest of my post through.

Well, I kinda did coast d1, I don't really have scumreads so arguing against the consensus thing is just ??? and a good measure of my posts are filler.

So there were no questions I could ask you about the other points.

[Nosferatu]

The combination of events has made me change my tr -> null -> sr for nos. It looks like nos is trying to vote the people with least resistance & when I analyzed my wagon & garm pushed a case against nos, nos reacted bizarre, which didn't look like it came from town.

I voted almost randomly. Wave was the closest person above me who I didn't townread. I'm not analysing wagons and looking for the lowest resistance ones. I could have just dropped a townread overnight and voted BBT or Byron and enabled their TvT.

[Nosferatu]

oh ok

[Nosferatu]

But what locked it was 842, with a cherry on top for 1012’s willingness to admit his push was weak.

Why are those posts scum?

[Nosferatu]

*town, sorry I subconsciously said his actual alignment

[Nosferatu]

*town, sorry I subconsciously said his actual alignment

Why is Garmr scum

That's a joke

I just accidentally typed scum

[Nosferatu]

just for that i hope panama wins

[Nosferatu]

Lets all be honest here

The nos wagon lost steam with out the main points being shut down for a mediocre at best wagon.

Teacher post have been kinda bland null. Because lets be honest the people that are scum reading him are going his to null. Literally search teacher and see how many times the word null pops up. I honestly don't mind lynching null reads but when a null wagon shuts down one with actual legitimate reasoning behind it that's suss

your reasons suck bro0oo

[Nosferatu]

VOTE: garmr

[Nosferatu]

tommy saying he pushed me isn't a problem cause he did lmao

[Nosferatu]

If he's really about townhunting, he should be more transparent about his townreads.

how have I not been?

[Nosferatu]

you never responded to me

[Nosferatu]

Lets all be honest here

The nos wagon lost steam with out the main points being shut down for a mediocre at best wagon.

Teacher post have been kinda bland null. Because lets be honest the people that are scum reading him are going his to null. Literally search teacher and see how many times the word null pops up. I honestly don't mind lynching null reads but when a null wagon shuts down one with actual legitimate reasoning behind it that's suss

your reasons suck bro0oo

Is that even worth responding to?

earlier

[Nosferatu]

1.Meta saying you would never postion yourself that way as scum is pretty much useless as it doesn't make everything null. Saying if you were ready to hammer invis or not also enforces my point about you waiting to see the out come; I would suspect in your town games you would of put some input about how you saw his claim or not, even a willingness to hammer to show the wagon would go through. Also it shows you can say anything day 2 to adjust to town. Nothing in your answer accounts for those.

2.484 does nothing to push the game forward and you didn't even use any information to push out any more information.

3.This reassures me how?

1. thats not meta. its a direct consequences of things ive said this game
2. you picked a stupid post to have this argument with. it was a rhetorical question to the whole that only one person responded to. i dont have to force people to engage with me.
3. coasting is whatever. its practically nai.

[Nosferatu]

@Nos: The burden of proof is on your shoulders: Where do you have a townread that was presented in a persuasive way? You might be townhunting, but if so, then not in a way in which town could actually benefit from it.

You're right. I don't feel that I need to cater the presentation of my reads to help the town.

if you think that's scummy you can lynch me.

[Nosferatu]

1.Why did you even bring up meta then? I said using meta as a defence is useless, my case isn't built on meta. But here's a question for you. If your actions direct consequences benefit a scum nos. Then why wouldn't I get the idea that you are scum? Shouldn't you be giving your town motivation to your actions or why it doesn't benefit scum nos, not arguing semantics of my point?

2.Was just one example. Find me a post where you actually did something with a line of questioning where it got results and I'll drop this point.

3. I think coasting can be alignment indicative when taken as a whole with someones play. Also If costing is nai then what do you think of tchill trying to say I was coasting (which I wasn't) as his only scum point?

1. To answer this your question, the reasons you scumread me are because your definition of towny play doesn't fit my playstyle which is whatever, I don't really care. I'm not arguing the semantics of your point, you think that (and correct me if I'm wrong):

- I was vague on my invis read to position myself to vote him.
- town!me would interact with the wagon that was going down instead of just watching.

This is bullshit because
- I was not vague on my invis read, and saying that I was positioning myself to vote is fucking dumb when I didn't even vote.
- town!me would not interact with the wagon, because I don't do that as either alignment. I have to bring up meta because you're asking me what I would do and I'm telling you that in the past I've never done that and thus why would I here? If you don't want meta in this then don't literally force me to bring it up.

2. Since you insist on this:
viewtopic.php?t=66305&f=54&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go
Here is a game where I was town. You were in this game.
Find a line of questioning.

Lines of questionings are not things I do. They're pointless bullshit to make yourself look towny, they don't actually make you change reads because people inherently ask pointed questions. If you think that you need a line of questioning to be town, then lynch me, cause I'm scum then.

3. If you have to look at the rest of their play to find out if it's alignment indicative, then it's not really alignment indicative. I think Tchill is making a shitty point if he's taking your coasting to be a scum move, especially since you didn't even coast D1, you just weren't there.

[Nosferatu]

this is tiring.

1. Your missing the point and just dragging this in circles.
-I explained why it could of been taken as vague as he was in the middle of the list and you didn't update the read and you didn't mention him when he was getting lynch or showed indication of voting him.
-Sure meta away. But I feel you haven't had the same situation as this.

2. I literally had to confirm you as town that game with my cop powers. Also you made me read beeboys posts again groans. Also you seem to be more proactive with your stances and even defended a scum read of mine (it flipped scum). There's slight differences with that game and this one as well.

1. How am I missing the point? Your point is dumb. It's not vague if he's in the middle of the list, that's fucking stupid. Vague would be if he wasn't on the list. Vague would be if I didn't make a list. Putting how I felt about him in a graphical format for ease of interpretation is not fucking vague. Before I made that list, I made no mention of my read on invis. If I wanted to position to vote invis, I would have literally just left him where he was. Saying that I was somehow fucking ambiguous about how I felt about it is disgusting, not to mention when you're saying that I positioned myself to vote invis

and then didn't vote invis. Like what the fuck?

But I feel you haven't had the same situation as this.

You don't get to say that though. Either you accept meta as an excuse for my actions, or don't use a point that I have to use meta to respond to.

2. What stances I had and is beside the point. There were no lines of questioning in that game yes or no?

[Nosferatu]

I'll get to the rest but

You never actually said you scum read invis you just said he could go. That could of been for any amount of reasons Like you could of null read him and wanted him out to be sorted or a policy lynch ect. Also you said geo and performer weren't your top scum reads either.

don't be fucking stupid

why would i have wanted to policy lynch invis? If I clearly said I wanted him to die, it's cause I scumread him. You're just coming up with random shit now.

[Nosferatu]

1.If you don't get my point you're dumb or playing dumb I think it's the latter. The way you wrote the list would could be the same or a read change to null unlike your two previous scum read who are clearly represented as scum. Also you keep cherry picking points to try and shake off my argument.

A.You keeped silent about your intent to vote him or not. Fact
B.You were in a position due to your actions to jump on his wagon or not. Fact
C. You can't deny the fact it doesn't benefit a scum or put a town intent and you haven't tried to argue these points. Fact
D1.Instead of focusing on the core argument you focus on the word choice saying I found your reads vague (which I found you were). Fact
D2.Even if you show you weren't vague Facts A and B are the stronger points and stand on there own don't try to present my argument as crumbling by cherry picking.

I'm not cherry picking shit

STOP SAYING THAT I WROTE THE LIST IN A VAGUE WAY OR TO CHANGE IT LATER. IF I WANTED TO POSITION MYSELF TO VOTE INVIS, I WOULD HAVE KEPT HIM IN MY SCUMREADS PLAIN AND FUCKING SIMPLE.

what you're saying is the most dumbfuck shit I've ever heard and a terrible way to position myself to vote someone.

I'm already transfuckingparently playing in a way that allows me to throw my vote around.

someone asked me to provide a readslist when invis was L-3 and already the likely lynch. You tell me why the fuck scum!me logically would put invis as a null read, when I had commented on exactly 0 of his posts beforehand and thus had no ostensible reason to change my reason.

A. you keep fucking framing it as i should have given a definite for sure "i will/won't support this" lynch. the sheer fact that i didnt oppose the wagon and that i previously vote should be clear enough fucking evidence to show that i either dont fucking care or want the lynch. now including the fact that i DIDNT EVEN VOTE THE WAGON THAT YOURE ACCUSING ME OF POSITIONING MYSELF TO VOTE, there should be OVERWHELMING evidence as to how much i cared about the invis lynch dude

B. I wasn't positioned to do shit. I could have voted everyone in {Invis, GEO, teacher, wave, garmr, tommy}. You act like I was in some scheme to vote invis specifically, when it literally could have been all of these people, and that's how I know you're talking fucking bullshit. Any reasonable person would say that I put myself in a position to vote any of these people, but you're specifically pushing invis, which is because he specifically flipped town and it's thus seemingly an easier argument to convince everyone else of. But it's fucking dumb to say I positioned myself to vote invis when I could have voted LITERALLY HALF THE FUCKING PLAYERLIST WITH EASE. AND ON TOP OF IT I DIDN'T VOTE HIM. If I were scum I would have just fucking voted before I went afk. What you're saying is anti-scum in that I'm literally just not voting a town mislynch.

C. My actual actions may benefit scum but what you're arguing is not that. You're arguing something fucking stupid, that I positioned myself to vote someone specific when in reality my playstyle (and this isn't meta right here) this game pretty transparently allows me to put my vote in a lot of places. The intentions you're accusing me of taking just didn't happen and aren't able to be inferred from my actions.

D1. BEING VAGUE IS YOUR CORE ARGUMENT

you're telling me that I made my stance on invis VAGUE so I could VOTE HIM

AND NOW I CAN'T TELL YOU THAT I WASN'T BEING VAGUE?

what the actual fuck?

D2. I legitimately cannot fucking believe this. How the fuck am I cherry picking or misrepresenting your headass argument?

So that leaves us with two situations

-Invis was your so called top scum read and you didn't react to his wagon or his lynch and held back
-Invis wasn't your so called top scum read and you never mentioned your top scum read or voted for him/her. Showing you didn't care about lynching your top scum read at all. If you actually had one

Neither of these scream town to me.

- you can't say this when I gave an ordered list where there are people below him. period
- I didn't have one and I said it in plain fucking english. You're trying to act like you have to infer it when it's literally right there

2. Let's rewind to exactly how we got to me "strawmanning your argument", and stop me when I'm wrong.

You quoted 484 AS AN EXAMPLE of me not getting info out of someone else to get reads.

I said "that's a shitty example for this point, but I don't do what your point is talking about"

You then said "find me an example where you did something with a line of questioning"

and I then gave you a whole game where I didn't use a line of questioning as town.

Then you bring it back and frame it as something else, that this one post does not push them game forward, but your original point was

You haven't done anything with the questions you asked to form any reads.

which I answered in a perfectly legitimate fashion: That I don't do that regardless of alignment.
I didn't strawman shit, you made a wrong argument with a bad example, and now that I've shown why your argument is wrong, you're trying to frame it around the example that had nothing to do with your actual point. And to boot, I did answer the argument with regards to the headass example as well.

[Nosferatu]

I'm literally just not going to read garmr's wall

too fucking aggravating

VOTE: tommy

[Nosferatu]

Would your actions yesterday benefit a scum around the invis wagon benefit a scum nos yes or no? 9I think it's pretty clear all the ways it would of)
What benefit did it bring to a town nos?

For the sake of just answering this question, I'll assume actions mean "being vague" or haphazard or whatever around the invis wagon, and that it was intentional.

No they didn't benefit scum nos because it was an unnecessary action to begin with because I was already in a position to vote invis, and scum nos could have just voted instead of positioning to vote and then not voting, which is just weird. It could work if you played dumb and were like "I didn't know how I felt on the slot and ended up not voting," but why would you do that lol?

It had no benefit to town nos other than maybe if I didn't know how I felt about the slot, but that's not a cause that's a symptom.

[Nosferatu]

Answer me this: what percentage of people townread Garmr, and what percentage scumread Garmr?

Well if I continued to vote garmr after ignoring his wall, that vote would be in bad faith so I'm switching from garmr until my anger subsides and I can go back to reading it.

[Nosferatu]

I just wanted to say in short if you not jumping on invis and waiting to see what happened would benefit a scum nos. Finally what benefits that would bring to town nos.

That's what I assumed being vague meant. It still stands.

What's the point of seeing where it goes when I can hammer to stop it from going anywhere?

[Nosferatu]

>.>

[Nosferatu]

Active lurking and seems to ask questions for the sake of looking like he's doing something.

honestly asking questions for the sake of looking busy is a bit gratuitous since I don't think I've even asked any questions lol

[Nosferatu]

Damn it...

So nos is scum right?

VOTE: tchill

[Nosferatu]

garmr is literally conf town which kinda sucks but tchill's wagon behavior has been transparently scum.

[Nosferatu]

What? No. They're equally likely. (I have a BA in maths.)

ostensibly yes but no.

if there are 11 people in the game and 3 are scum (its a mini so)

there's a 1/10 chance that you pick the person submitting the kill

but the since scum can't shoot themselves, only 11-3 = 9 people in the game are in the pool to be shot

so there's a 1/8 chance that you prevent a kill

[Nosferatu]

its possible that garmr is scum but its more likely that he's town so he shouldn't be lynched today but defo can't make it to LyLo

[Nosferatu]

i forget this was N1 with no scum kills, but the math is still the same

What? No. They're equally likely. (I have a BA in maths.)

ostensibly yes but no.

if there are 12 people in the game and 3 are scum (its a mini so)

there's a 1/11 chance that you pick the person submitting the kill

but the since scum can't shoot themselves, only 12-3 = 9 people in the game are in the pool to be shot

so there's a 1/8 chance that you prevent a kill

[Nosferatu]

You CAN'T conftown garmr because he was jailed n1. It's just as likely that he was supposed to be the guy who killed for scum. Some MIGHT actually thinks that's even MORE likely here.

Well as I said in the post above, its ~40% more likely that he was the night kill target

Nos who's scum and why? Tommy pursued you on a regular basis and was town. Why am I scum for pursuing you?

scum is in {wave, tchill, aristo}

You're not scum for pursuing me, you're scum for your behaviour around the wagons. You're flighty, inconsistent, on both town lynches.

That list is not intended to be a team, but based on VCA, it makes sense as one.

[Nosferatu]

{bbt, NM, teacher, garmr} are a solid town block as far as i can see

{performer, geo} could go either way.

pedit: I two of my games ended so I should be good to switch to a bit of a more readable playstyle

[Nosferatu]

other than the gamma push, performer has been town

[Nosferatu]

Tommy consistently pushed nos. Hopped on invisibility because it was inevitable. Pushed nos more. Scum has no reason to lynch or nk Tommy unless nos is scum.

This implies that you think tommy was a scum-driven wagon

Tommy Egan (7): BlueBloodedToffee, wavemode, Nosferatu, teacher, Performer, Tchill13, Ircher

Your scumreads would have me believe you think me and wave were the driving force of tommy's lynch

[Nosferatu]

Where did your push of geo and wave go nos?

wave didn't react at all, which in itself is kinda scummy but not that much. He's still not town so it doesn't really matter.
geo never really got that big of a wagon.

we don't need the other mason to claim. the other mason is kind of obvious.

[Nosferatu]

pushing is also a strong word

[Nosferatu]

performer as town implies that BBT is also town: there's not that much of a reason for scum to forcefully break up a town wagon

[Nosferatu]

there's also no way this is my mylo rn guys, there are 10 players rn

[Nosferatu]

Tommy consistently pushed nos. Hopped on invisibility because it was inevitable. Pushed nos more. Scum has no reason to lynch or nk Tommy unless nos is scum.

This implies that you think tommy was a scum-driven wagon

Tommy Egan (7): BlueBloodedToffee, wavemode, Nosferatu, teacher, Performer, Tchill13, Ircher

Your scumreads would have me believe you think me and wave were the driving force of tommy's lynch

also what do you think of this @tchill

Uh....I'm saying bbt is not town, I've been paranoid about him all game. Those were literal paranoia posts.

i know you're saying that
im saying otherwise

[Nosferatu]

Wait hold up

10-3 = 7v3

yeah it is mylo my b

[Nosferatu]

1498 - not caring about one naked vote isn't scummy. double yawn

that's just the thing isn't it

especially when im literally asked to explain what it was for 2 minutes after i put it down

it takes away the weight or curiosity

[Nosferatu]

How did we get 10-3?? Isn't it 10-2 if we mislynch?

10 total players - 3 scum = 7 town players vs 3 scum

and mislynch = lynching town

[Nosferatu]

also i was right the first time smh

[Nosferatu]

Yeah wave is off for sure.

Wave is probably scum though so it's OK.

@performer you realize that if the next day phase is mylo it benefits scum to counter claim Mason with the other player and all we have is your word versus his right?

I get the strong feeling that no one will be doubting the actual 2nd mason claim

[Nosferatu]

or, we don't because scum either won't counterclaim because of what i just said, or they will and we lynch them?

[Nosferatu]

weak points of what?

[Nosferatu]

If everybody knows who the other Mason is I don't see the point in that Mason not claiming.

If scum cc in mylo or lylo it comes down to performers word in a scenario where performer could be scum.

I'm saying that for scum to cc a mason that is braindead to check, it stops being performer's word and starts being plain as fucking day.

[Nosferatu]

Haven't read everything yet, but I must ask: are Perf & Nos just having a really long stroke right now? Nos's faux maths about the JK was bad enough, but this mylo-lylo fuckery is even worse.

bro please stop flexing your math ba

if we're wrong and they're equally likely just post the math

[Nosferatu]

tho unless you're arguing that scum can shoot themselves i dont see how your math can possibly check out

[Nosferatu]

There's 1 player who's NK'd, & 1 player who executes the NK. Obviously the JK has equal chance of using their night action on either of them.
Do you also want me to spell out why today is neither mylo nor lylo?

bruh

do you not understand that its not the same pool of people

scum can't shoot themselves or their team mates so they're not shooting from the entire playerlist
the jk is

get a refund on your tuition bills

[Nosferatu]

SIGH

THIS IS AN IMPROVEMENT

[Nosferatu]

What the hell. Throwing shade on an teaching degree? I've never seen that before.

UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS OF SHADE

WE'RE THROWING WHOLE TREES IN THIS BITCH

[Nosferatu]

Try to behave yourself. Do you believe the mason claim?

There's exactly one player I can imagine as mason to Perf. If they claim, I believe it, otherwise not.

basically same

[Nosferatu]

im just trying to figure out

how the fuck would performer's claim get cc'd?

Say he's scum and there is no second mason

his scumbuddy claims mason at massclaim time

who the fuck cc's him?

Say he's town and there is a second mason

scum cc's the mason claim

Literally a cc confirms Performer's claim

[Nosferatu]

it would, but i dont think that scum will shoot performer today

[Nosferatu]

tonight*

[Nosferatu]

A quick day is a scum agenda

where was the vote on gustavo d1 my dude

[Nosferatu]

I'm not sure whether the CC comment is directed at me or not. It'd make sense for scum to CC the 2nd mason claim once Perf's dead. Not today, though.

its not btw

[Nosferatu]

Huh? Day 1 and day 3 are completely different situations and require different approaches... Imo.

so a quick day is only ok on d1? pls elaborate

@Nos: That's wifom, so I don't want to get into it.

aight

[Nosferatu]

Yeah I think for the most part a quick day is only OK on the day with the least amount of information.

but if d1 is a quicklynch day, d2 has way less information than usual

[Nosferatu]

true

i believe performer's claims and teacher has been town for a while now imo

[Nosferatu]

town {bbt, NM, teacher, garmr, performer}
scum {geo, wave, tchill, aristo}

garmr is effectively mechanically town unless geo drops that sick math proof
in which case i would flip garmr and geo cause why would scum!geo put garmr in the dirt like that

[Nosferatu]

no if one of the scum claim mason then ill assume that its a scum gambit

[Nosferatu]

or a scum cc

[Nosferatu]

Lefy was town and aristo is more of a VCA thing than a scum thing

I'd totally accept him as disinterested town because I've seen him play pretty decently as scum.

[Nosferatu]

As to why aristo is possible scum off of VCA alone, his was on the lynch for invis but not on tommy, and they were both town wagons.

scum usually compensate for being on a town wagon by being off the next one.

[Nosferatu]

not to mention the whole gustavo thing that can easily be scum trying to create content by just picking a NAI fight

[Nosferatu]

never played with him myself

[Nosferatu]

Is there any world where Bbt is scum?

If performer is town, definitely

if performer is scum, probably not

that seems counterintuitive, but no one buddies scum

[Nosferatu]

seems pretty plausible to me

[Nosferatu]

him thinking ari and nm are more town than you that is

[Nosferatu]

lefty was a near universal town read and its easy to read ari as null

gustavo's outbursts could be interpreted as town frustration

im not saying i agree, just that i can understand

[Nosferatu]

you town read me but im in 6/10 of your scum teams?

damn

[Nosferatu]

aight

VOTE: aristo

[Nosferatu]

OBVIOUSLY

[Nosferatu]

im sorry my dude i am town

and we should be lynching aristo today 100%

[Nosferatu]

i dont think i said that but today its very role related

[Nosferatu]

tr-tr-tr-tracked

[Nosferatu]

nos what is your full role

x-shot tracker

[Nosferatu]

obviously x means something but its for the wifom

[Nosferatu]

Tracker claim from Nos is funny.

What is full role and who did you track each night?

N1 I tracked performer

[Nosferatu]

If teacher was town I think they would of been lynched already with my vote.

i mean if there were 4 scum you would be correct

[Nosferatu]

If Nos and Aristo are both scum this is a decent play from them.

Scum!Nos 'tracks' scum!Aristo to a kill. Lynch Aristo, he flips scum and Nos carriea the cred the following day for a scum win.

Hunh? I was tracked somewhere??

I call bullshit if this is actually a current claim.

be my guest my dude

[Nosferatu]

i was also being rhetorical

[Nosferatu]

any vote outside of me and aristo is a scum claim btw

there's no room in this setup for any scum role that tampers with my results here

pedit: no, i did claim a guilty on you, i just knew what you would say

[Nosferatu]

You misunderstand. I didn't realize we has masons, but that's awesome. They often replace tosn investigatives and this strengthens my belief that Nos is Scum Invest. I am merely saying they should not be coloured in!

Also they usually replace Cop specifically so Oddnight Cop and Masons is odd.

no, YOU misunderstand. for you, ari, to consider a scenario where the masons are scum and nos is also scum, you are NECESSARILY considering a scenario where town's only power is odd-night cop and jailkeeper, minus the negative utility of an ascetic who can't be protected or investigated. in your opinion is that balanced?

im so confused by what you just said here

Nos, who do you believe is the scumteam

it would pretty necessarily be some combination of {aristo, garmr, bbt/teacher}

[Nosferatu]

same