Starcraft Mafia -- Game Over!

[Shoshin]

Seems pretty town for Irrelephant.

[Shoshin]

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

[Shoshin]

Mitillos feels townish.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant's town, too.

C'mon the worst, these are obvious things. Mitillos was getting discussion started with a fair question to Irrelephant, how is that scummy?

[Shoshin]

Hello everyone.

VOTE: Irrelephant for not confirming yet.

While I have your attention

, please explain why you switched votes between your two posts.

Also, I don't think scum don't talk like this? Like, he's unnecessarily calling attention to himself. I dunno. It's a weak read, but definitely more town than scum.

[Shoshin]

i think mtilos' post was low-key townie

Why?

[Shoshin]

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

[Shoshin]

Hey Nauci, excited to play with you again! What're your reads so far?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

[Shoshin]

Skitter's reads just feel sort of diplomatic and go-with-the-flow of what others are saying, which just feels very different from town her.

[Shoshin]

Until post 30, I was ready to convert my random vote on elephant to a real one. After that I no longer do, but I want to correct him. @Irrelephant: "whom".

What do you think of this, the worst?

[Shoshin]

I've played in two games where you were town...

[Shoshin]

and you tried to mislynch in mylo in the most recent one ...

That's not true, but whatever.

[Shoshin]

What feels similar to Labyrinth, Nancy?

[Shoshin]

Nancy's town.

[Shoshin]

town enough for page 4: mtilos, irrel, creature, nauci, shoshin

Why are you town on Nauci?

[Shoshin]

@the worst: I'm sure you're perfectly fluffy. Aggressiveness is a separate property altogether. We'll probably talk at length later. As for Irellephant, I've seen a ton of games he joined late or didn't talk for a very long time (ignoring these), and a bunch of newbie ones where he is the SC (ignoring these too). Other than that, looking at his recently finished games, I've seen three games where he doesn't wagonjump a lot as a townie, and one where he does as mafia. Unless someone else who has played with him a lot wants to provide additional data, I'm going with this and with the OMGUS on me, so now my vote is serious. Could you explain your Performer vote? I thought his post was pretty standard RVS.

Can you link the mafia game you're referring to?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Performer

[Shoshin]

Maybe a townlean on Shoshin (but disappointed she left Skitter wagon) - I thought Skitter was sheeping Shoshin too RE: Mitillos

That's how I felt too, but I liked her reasoning on Nauci enough to leave the wagon for now.

[Shoshin]

Hello everyone.

VOTE: Irrelephant for not confirming yet.

The guy posted itt as post #1 out of all us though....
VOTE: Mitllos

also who are you mitil? An alt?

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

but! He has probably more large theme experience than any of us!
And he hasnt even posted yet

This feels like scum. Especially compared with everyone else.

[Shoshin]

@Mitillos

I'm comparing Performer with players who have posted readable posts. Performer's post feels scummy because I don't get the sense that he's trying to sort alignments, his justification for voting you feels overly mechanical and careless, and his response to me feels really awkward in a way that feels scummy.

I disagree that it's "regular RVS" since we were already deep into sorting alignments (at least from my perspective, there was a lot of content to start analyzing). But even if you read it as RVS, that doesn't mean you can't use it to sort his alignment. So I'm not sure what that has to do with anything? Weren't you reading pretty deep into an RVS post yourself?

[Shoshin]

Hey Nauci, join me on Performer!

[Shoshin]

Forgot you were on Performer, excellent!

[Shoshin]

Do you agree with my reasoning? Why are you on him?

[Shoshin]

Bad vote from teacher.

Good votes on Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Varsoon

[Shoshin]

Edit: Explain the new vote, please.

His aggression feels over-the-top. His "disgust" towards townreads doesn't feel town at all, especially when comparing Varsoon's town game to his scum game. As town, he himself tends to townread certain players for seemingly nothing (e.g. his townread on Reck in TAZ Mafia), whereas as scum he does everything in his power to prevent lots of townreads from forming (can't reference a specific game yet but will eventually). His vote on me feels thoughtless, like he's just trying to go make an against-the-grain vote instead of having actual reasons to suspect me as scum (there's none, since I'm town and when I'm town it's fairly obvious to anyone who has played wiht me before, and that includes Varsoon). And finally, his commentary on Nauci and others feels overly descriptive; as town he was more analytical and tended to make more concrete interpretations of alignment based on what players are doing, instead of just describing their behavivors and then saying he doesn't know what it means.

Having experience with both town Varsoon and scum Varsoon, I'm confident this is his scum game. His response to my vote is also pretty damning imo, since he's not even trying to sort me but instead just wants to start a pointless back-and-forth between us when he should know better - it'll just clog the game with stuff that isn't relevant, since we just disagree about how to play the game on a very fundamental level.

[Shoshin]

@Mitillos

What do you see as the key differences between Varsoon's town/scum game, and why is this closer to his town game?

[Shoshin]

If anyone other than Varsoon has a concern about me, let me know. But otherwise I'm not going to waste my or your time responding to him.

[Shoshin]

I'm pretty sure Varsoon is more interested in proving that I'm a bad player than he is in proving that I'm scum... so I'd appreciate having others weigh in on his alignment, because maybe I'm just biased.

Mitillos, check what I said about the Varsoon's attack on the easy formation of townreads. He himself forms them as town (as in TAZ) and attacks them as scum (reference to come, or you can check for yourself). It's a very clear difference between his town/scum game. And it also happens to be clearly pro-scum to attack the formation of townreads, since lots of townreads on townies make it very difficult for scum to push mislynches.

As for responses to Varsoon, sure, I can respond to his questions.

[Shoshin]

What's even remotely good about the votes on me, Shoshin?

Remotely good? The votes create pressure on someone who hasn't contributed, forcing them to do something readable or get lynched. I think this is especially good because in recent games I've seen scum lurk out to a win doing nothing all game without ever facing any pressure or votes.

Hey Irrelephant, want to policy lynch Varsoon?

What's the policy, even?

This was sort of a joke post (notice that it's post 18), but it was also a way to test Irrelephant (I know he's against policy lynching) and a way to let people know that I have a fundamentally different way of thinking about the game than Varsoon. I never intended to actually policy lynch him.

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst deny it outright and ask you why
You hard dodge
Then post this sort of thing:

I think I should be higher on the town list, the worst.

For what reason even?

the worst knows me enough to be able to make the call that I was a step townier than anyone else at this point in the game. This post was directed specifically at the worst, because I don't expect anyone else (except Irrelephant) to have the same read. It's based in large part on knowing my play as both alignments and knowing that I can't fake this type of play as scum.

VOTE: Skitter

I had similar feelings.

This is spineless.
You asked Nauci for a read just to sheep it.
I see no trajectory that'd lead you to have this opinion on skitter, even.

What's "spineless" about this? That's all in Varsoon's head. It shows that he's going after me from the start. I just happened to have similar feelings, yet somehow it's "spineless"? Lol...

As for trajectory, did I need one? It's post 51 of the game. But sure, here's the trajectory: I asked Skitter a question about her read on Mitillos, because I felt that she was sheeping me. As you can see later in the game, when I explain the vote on Skitter, I state that the reasons I suspected Skitter were due to the way she was following my reads (as well as others) instead of forming her own, which felt very different to me than the way Skitter played as town in my prevoius two games with her. That was my trajectory. A question, followed by a vote when I saw someone else had the same feelings. I strongly believe that having others who share your feelings about something adds strength to the force behind those feelings, and in this case it did. That isn't "spineless," though - it's just smart play.

^ Like you say you 'had similar feelings' but you haven't mentioned skitter once before in your ISO.

I asked her a question about a specific issue that had everything to do with why I suspected her.

That's all of Varsoon's questions. He doesn't actually offer any reasons to suspect I'm scum. He asks some questions and then votes me without waiting for responses.

[Shoshin]

Furthermore, me taking umbrage with people having easy townreads isn't even a scumtell or a towntell, it's literally what any player should do regardless of align when, within 6 pages, there are over a dozen thrown out 'this person is town' naked reads.

This is the problem with discussing anything with Varsoon. It's always going to come down to a fundamental disagreement about something, at which point the discussion just clogs the game with pointless theory talk.

I think he's scum because of what he's doing. I think there's a clear difference in his meta on this point, and I also think this specific behavior reflects an anti-town mindset, even if unconscious.

But I'd love for someone to tell me I'm wrong, because I certainly don't hold myself out as knowing how to read Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, what do you think of Key so far?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, yeah. 109 definitely feels towny, forgot about that post. I was getting scummish vibes from 175, what do you like about it?

[Shoshin]

In the future, please don't sign up for games I'm in, Varsoon.

[Shoshin]

great, Varsoon is likely town or else is very good at faking anger (someone let me know if so) my [redacted] was "tunneling on the most widely-townread townie and making alignment-judgments about other players based on his preferences for how mafia should be played all feel like town!him". Add "angry at the right moments" and it's town!Varsoon, imo

My sense is that Varsoon's a lot more "angry" as scum than as town. Check meta please. You will be surprised.

[Shoshin]

viewtopic.php?t=77508

Does his play there look anything like his play here?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Performer

[Shoshin]

You gotta exercise your brain, Varsoon. Stretch it a bit, until you understand.

Do you suspect there's scum in Irrelephant's "unbreakable townblock"?

[Shoshin]

I do suspect that at least one of Irrel, Shoshin, AlmostNancy, and TheWorst is scum, yes.

Why?

[Shoshin]

Performer, Xtoxm, and one of Teacher, Varsoon, or Not_Mafia as scumteam? Seems almost too easy.

[Shoshin]

Creature should be a null read for everyone right now.

I thought the humor in his posts around 250 were townish.

[Shoshin]

Performer, Xtoxm, and one of Teacher, Varsoon, or Not_Mafia as scumteam? Seems almost too easy.

Yeah, seems too easy

What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

I remember having some handful number of townreads but didn't mention them through the thread because it felt too obvious

Please mention. Join us townreaders!

[Shoshin]

I remember having some handful number of townreads but didn't mention them through the thread because it felt too obvious

Please mention. Join us townreaders!

but I didn't keep track of them :/

the worst, what's your take on this? town or scum?

[Shoshin]

gustavo

Irrelephant isn't Gustavo. Can't compare.

[Shoshin]

I don't believe in blocks this early, I've modded (and played in) too many games where scum have infiltrated D1 townblocks and coasted on it hard.

And then there's games where blocks are composed solely of town... and those blocks crush scum...

Your response doesn't answer my question. It's fine if you don't believe in forming blocks as a matter of theory, but once they've been formed, you need to sort them. Why are you assuming the block has one (or more) scum instead of actually trying to figure out the players' alignments?

[Shoshin]

@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.

That's not what I did, nor is it what Nauci's talking about.

[Shoshin]

viewtopic.php?p=10493177#p10493177 - replaced into a game I'd been barely skimming in which shoshin was pretty widely scumread (and not playing very well) but I was correctly >80% sure she was town

That was an impressive read, actually.

[Shoshin]

Hey AlmostNancy, can one of you sign your posts? I can't tell which of you is posting.

[Shoshin]

@Nauci: Baiting someone into exploding, especially when you know that player explodes and looks bad for it as town, is not great play and, is, in fact, really scummy play.

That's not what I did, nor is it what Nauci's talking about.

You literally called for my policy lynch on D1.
Did you not think I would respond to that?

I didn't call for your policy lynch. I didn't even vote you until much later in the game. What I did is jokingly ask Irrelephant a question about you, after which I didn't mention you again until we started building pressure to get you posting. Besides, I didn't think you'd care since you've seen town do this before without thinking twice about it (e.g. RC in TAZ). I don't understand why you're making such a big deal out of this...

[Shoshin]

i disagree that i sheeped you
i had similar conclusions as you did.
that doesn't mean i had them *because* you did, or that i was trying to mimic you on purpose

like i'm not sure how you can even possibly distinguish sheeping you from forming my own reads that incidentally were similar to yours at that stage and i dislike that you assumed it was the former instead of the latter (i've previously told you how i feel about sheeping even ...?)

Yeah, maybe "sheeping" is the wrong word. I'm just not used to having you agree with me as much as you did, so it felt off, like you weren't forming your own reads like you usually do. And when Nauci felt it too, I followed up her gut ping. In retrospect, I think the fact that we were all agreeing about things early on in a very natural way is a sign that we're on the right path, sort of like what happened in American Presidents. And I think the people trying to prevent us from forming a townblock are more likely to be scum. I certainly can't imagine the scum just sitting back letting us form a townblock like this without at least one of them attempting to instill paranoia.

[Shoshin]

But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.

I'm constantly reassessing reads. But I think there's more than enough information so far to find town/scum among the active players.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, what're your reads so far?

[Shoshin]

But I generally play with players who are willing to reassess their reads constantly and don't put a ton of stock into page 10 reads.

I'm constantly reassessing reads. But I think there's more than enough information so far to find town/scum among the active players.

That's good. I have good confidence that you'll find 'em.
That's why I'm following you.

Excellent decision. Thanks for trusting.

[Shoshin]

A thought: Nancy once called me "shamelessly bad," "atrocious," and "a blight on the ecosystem" in the middle of a game, and maybe other things I forgot about? It was quite harsh. But now we're friends? So I hope that all the players who dislike me will one day come to enjoy my playstyle.

[Shoshin]

that's why i was a little confused when keyser said a few pages back he was struggling to form townreads because i feel like there's people in this playerlist that he shouldn't have *that* much trouble reading - it was just like a completely differnt understanding of the gamestate that i was a little bit surprised

I agree with this. He's not someone I'm townreading yet, which worries me. But he's also less scummy than players like Performer & Xtom.

[Shoshin]

It's kind of baffling that you propose a policy lynch on me and when Irrel + The Worst + Performer deny it outright

Fixed.

I dont like policy lynching (and for that matter I dont believe in the notion of "too scummy to be scum")

This post actually has a "too scummy to be scum" vibe. Ironically.

[Shoshin]

I've got Irrelephant, the worst, Nauci, Nancy, Skitter, and Mitillos as town.

Creature, Varsoon, NM, Key, Saudade, teacher, and xtom are varying degrees of null, some leaning town, others scum.

Performer's still scummy, but the "Fixed" post actually has me rethinking whether scum would actually play this badly. So I want to reevaluate a few things.

As a starting point, does anyone disagree with my townreads?

[Shoshin]

I take back all my claims about Varsoon's meta after looking a bit deeper than two games.

[Shoshin]

Also, "disgusting" is such a strong word to use.

It's a strong emotion.

Who is more likely to feel disgust, town who sees a bunch of townreads floating around, or scum who sees a bunch of townies townreading each other?

[Shoshin]

I'm adding Varsoon to my list of strong town.

[Shoshin]

Come on, Shoshin. You played both me and my naughty twin brother (AP).

Can you remind me when we played together?

[Shoshin]

So you're sold he's outside his scum range here?

Irrelephant's response to my wagon should clear him. As scum, he'd express a townread on me but allow a wagon to unfold without working this hard to prevent a mislynch.

Based on my recent games with Irrelephant (TAZ, and the Schadd game you were in), Irrelephant knows that I'm mislynchable even in games where it seems like I'm the most widely townread player (TAZ) and that mislynches sometimes happen quickly without time for a town response (Carmen's lynch in Schadd's game). Knowing this, I doubt scum Irrelephant completely shuts down any possibilty of my mislynch when it's potentially picking up steam (I was the largest wagon when Irrelephant started defending me).

[Shoshin]

I think scum!Creature is more likely to just throw out townreads for the sake of having made them and is less likely to mention them at all if he's going to freeze up. Imo his reentries to the thread are something scum!Creature avoids. [refer Heroes Wanted, possibly his strongest scumgame in ages]

he's >rand town and >rand not scum unless his scumgame has developed again in a really unusual direction. I'm kinda being pretty cautious with this tho

Good analysis.

[Shoshin]

Performer, can you link me your most recent town/scum games?

[Shoshin]

I didn't think your wagon was 'legit' though, it didn't have any of the 'town block' powering it. Only the nulls/low posters on it. Plus, Relly was already committed to a hard town read of you. He wasn't gonna step down from that and try to "shut down" your lynch.

The "town block" isn't majority of players. Plus NM quickhammers. This is precisely the kind of game where scum Irrelephant keeps options open in terms of allowing my lynch to happen while calling me town. I just don't see him going out of his way to defend me in the way he has as scum. What's he gain from it?

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, what's your read on Xtom?

[Shoshin]

I still believe if he’d reversed on his 99% t/read on you that would have looked bad on scum!Relly (and I don’t think that’s my confirm bias speaking)

I'm confused. I'm saying Irrelephant would have townread me at 99% as scum. It's the extra step of acting like a bodyguard that he wouldn't have done. It's the level of engagement behind his defense.

If Irrelephant scumreads me at any time in this game, immediately lynch him.

[Shoshin]

It's a fast game. We probably need to slow down a bit for others to catch up.

[Shoshin]

Performer wagon has played out.

VOTE: Xtom

[Shoshin]

I'd want some pretty spicy meta to lynch a one-poster

There are some players who I'd feel confident townreading or scumreading based on zero posts.

[Shoshin]

I'm adding Varsoon to my list of strong town.

Talk to me about this? Or if heavy meta influence do y9u have some recommended reading?

All the games. The list Varsoon provided me in TAZ is a good start.

[Shoshin]

Also, I was wrong about his "anger" coming mostly from scum. I'd say on balance it's actually more likely to come from town Varsoon, though it definitely shows up in his scum games as well. His scum games vary quite a bit in their tone.

[Shoshin]

Do you have too many townreads? If not, don't worry.

[Shoshin]

Seems right to me. I'm also at eight.

[Shoshin]

Where else do you play mafia, the worst?

[Shoshin]

I want to see this game of best town players to learn too!

[Shoshin]

jagged audacity

I like this description.

[Shoshin]

This feels good

VOTE: Nauci

What're your thoughts on Xtom & Performer?

[Shoshin]

Oh this started, who’s scum?

Not_Mafia is town.

[Shoshin]

Yeah this is the kind of play that's so drastically different than mine that I scumread it by default.

Stretch your brain a bit. I could tell you why this is town for NM, but it'd be cool if you figured it out yourself. It has to do with his established meta and the likelihood that scum NM makes this post with the inherent advantage of playing under his meta.

[Shoshin]

I need to reread xtox for why he's being voted.

I find this sort of post very scummy. I haven't looked into it before but I have a sense that scum talk about needing to "reread" a major wagon without weighing in a lot more often than town, and it's especially common when the scum is posting about a whole bunch of stuff yet avoiding the main wagon he should be focusing on.

But I'll meta Performer before coming back to him.

[Shoshin]

Let me rephrase. Stretch your "mind." There's on limit on mind expansion.

[Shoshin]

What's the difference between town/scum Nancy? I haven't seen her scum games.

[Shoshin]

Let me check my role pm one sec

Why you pretending not to see the PM? Now I'm questioning...

[Shoshin]

Note: the fact that Not_Mafia didn't hammer means he's either town (as I said) or partnered with Xtom (if Xtom flips scum).

[Shoshin]

Personally, I'd have left Xtom at L-1. I feel like the only risks for hammering were NM and Saudade, and in both cases it would have been insightful as to their alignment.

[Shoshin]

Current reads (towny to scummy):

Irrelephant
the worst
Varsoon
Mitillos
Creature
Nancy
Skitter
Not_Mafia
Mew
Key
Performer
Saudade
Xtom

I'm probably wrong somewhere but I'll need more information to reevaluate.

[Shoshin]

This isn't LYLO, shoshin.
It doesn't work that way.

I'm talking about the player Not_Mafia, not some abstract notion about how mafia is supposed to work.

[Shoshin]

Current reads (towny to scummy):

Irrelephant
the worst
Varsoon
Mitillos
Creature

Nauci

Nancy
Skitter
Not_Mafia
Mew
Key
Performer
Saudade
Xtom

I'm probably wrong somewhere but I'll need more information to reevaluate.

Fixed.

I forgot to add Nauci.

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, feel free to challenge me on the reads. I do want to refine them.

[Shoshin]

And Varsoon is right. Scum don't just lolhammer on D1 after making only a handful of posts, that would be suicide.

I can refer you to multiple games where scum Not_Mafia has quickhammered town days before LYLO. It's tough to read his quickhammers because he quickhammers as town too. But that same quirk also gives a lot of insight into his alignment when he chooses NOT to quickhammer. I'm also fairly confident it's not a fake town-tell on his part. Not_Mafia is one of those players that people think is hard to read (kinda like Pork) but actually is pretty transparent when you just take what he's doing at face value.

[Shoshin]

I think Saudade should be higher and Nauci lower, but I'm not great at this.

Why?

I think the fact that Saudade hasn't replaced out points to him being scum. But maybe you have more experience with him that says otherwise? You can also stop denigrating your play in every post.

[Shoshin]

Scum!NM doesn't hammer Town!Xtoxm here, regardless.

Thanks for making me an excuse to do this

lol

[Shoshin]

Xtom, what're your reads?

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin: If N_M quickhammers as both mafia and town, then wouldn't the fact that he didn't do so here be non-alignment-indicative? Scum-N_M might avoid hammering because Xtoxm is his buddy, or because he wants to avoid being suspected by those who don't know this meta of his (e.g. me), or because he is worried that Xtoxm is vengeful. The last two reasons would also be valid for town-N_M.

If Xtom's town, not hammering should clear NM. If Xtom's scum, it could go either way. I don't think NM would ever worry about vengeful, regardless of alignment.

[Shoshin]

Willing to thought dump on mostly everyone that's been active so far at this point, some more extensively than others - so feel free to ask.

Who do you scumread?

[Shoshin]

I'd much prefer a lynch on Xtom.

[Shoshin]

Who are his buddies?

[Shoshin]

Shoshin how do you feel about xtoxm’s self-referential townreads on other players? I sorta townread how his reads on other players leaned on knowing his own alignment to be town

I don't think that's towny for him (check his scum games). I also think his lack of paranoia about the people defending him isn't towny for him.

[Shoshin]

I found Mew's catch up posts to be nice but much more hollow tbh, so I'm more inclined to go there

Shoshin do you have a different reaction to those posts? What about performer?

I think Mew's town.

I'm still open to lynching Performer, but I really need to check his meta more before feeling comfortable with it. I started reading his games but need more time and have been a bit busy the last couple days.

[Shoshin]

I think Mew's town.

Why?

Very similar thought patterns as his town play.

[Shoshin]

Trying to think about how scum would approach the Varsoon v Shoshin as TvT keeping in mind how it went down and I'm inclined to think that scum would simply not post or skirt around engaging with it wholly to allow the possibility of paranoia to foster between those two players, leaving it as an option to easily push on later.

At the same time, I think it would be disingenous to call players scummy on the basis of talking about other things other than the interaction even while it was happening a few posts beforehand (eg. Creature).

This would indicate that Irrelephant11 is mildly more likely to be town here.

This in particular feels town for him.

[Shoshin]

Or maybe she's not a townbeard and actually just scum.

Tunnelling me since my first post and the read doesn't evolve in response to literally anything.

You're going to have to stop putting blind faith on this at some point.

Seems like you're projecting.

[Shoshin]

I recommend anyone who scumreads Mew take a look at his play in the recently finished Fortnight game.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: shosin

I was already getting scum vibes from calling a bunch of different people town for no reason and campaigning for a policy lynch is just a dick move

Xtom's been voting me since this post.

At first, I'm scum for townreading players (a simple check of my meta would confirm this isn't scummy for me) and because of "campaigning for a policy lynch" (I did no such thing, as later posts should have cleared up).

But now I'm scum because... I'm tunneling Xtom despite his newer posts? Isn't that what he's doing to me? Tunneling me despite a lot more information that should have cleared up both his reasons for scumreading me in the first place?

[Shoshin]

I disagree with Performer's post where he votes Shoshin, but I think that his phrasing in that post among others indicates that it's more likely to come from town than scum (but this is a weak thought and I'm not willing to go in on a town read of this nature).

What part of his phrasing are you referring to here? And why more likely town than scum?

[Shoshin]

This is hype.

So Varsoon I wonder if this finally the game where we're on the same team at like the 7th attempt?? Don't let me down man.

VOTE: shosin

I was already getting scum vibes from calling a bunch of different people town for no reason and campaigning for a policy lynch is just a dick move

@varsoon. I'm not downgrading skitter (I mean I don't have much in the way of reads on anyone yet). What I notice is skitters were a bit more spread out, so perhaps that's why I didn't see her doing it

Lol @ having 2 strong instant scum reads in a large game. Get ove4 yourself.

Yeah, because anyone claiming strong reads this early in the game is more likely to just be lying.

You know if varsoon wasn't in this game I would just replace out at this point because the attitude coming from many players is totally disgusting

if it's because he's losing

It's D1

Anything can happen

Yeah he nailed me and my entire scumtean in rvs and thats why i got so upset

Its like you're the only one with a brain in this game

Altho I think varsoons just doing his own weird shenanigans and doesnt actually believe in this so I'll let him off

What're your thoughts on Xtom?

[Shoshin]

Oh, I was gonna comment on some of those, ugh... I always forget it gets posted when I quick reply.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Key

[Shoshin]

yo, Xtoxm, this sort of "I never did that" denial thing Shoshin does is 100% a playstyle thing and not really indicative of alignment.
Even though they literally did post "Hey Irrel do you want to policy lynch Varsoon" and even though people outright interacted with and questioned it as a serious response, it did not happen, it was just an Irrel reaction test in Shoshin's eyes.

Intent matters.

[Shoshin]

@shoshin mew’s play in that game you mentioned seems maybe intentionally poor? Town has very little incentive to town it up in that setup, since they don’t need to sort themselves. OTOH here it feels like he’s trying his hardest... and getting less done

I don't think his play was intentionally poor in Fortnight... And besides, I'm comparing the thought patterns. Look at how he comes to the conclusion that you're town here, and then compare that with his thought patterns in Fortnight. The way he's thinking about alignments is very similar. Also, I think try harding is towny, not scummy. And I don't see him getting less done in this game, quite the opposite. He replaced an inactive slot, read everything, gave his thoughts on the important points, and answered follow-up questions (with fairly thoughtful answers).

I mean, I dunno. I could be wrong about him, but he's not who I want to lynch today.

[Shoshin]

Xtom, can you give me a quick rundown of where all your reads are at the moment?

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, you know from experience that I can read Irrel so trust me on that, please.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, join us on Key!

[Shoshin]

When does town ever claim doc, since presumably doc can’t protect itself?

To out who they protected from a nightkill.

[Shoshin]

Why is Key scum though?

Because he's not town.

[Shoshin]

Why is he not town?

He's done nothing towny. Everything he's posted feels much more careful than I'm used to from town Key, less willing to put himself out there, and none of it has any hint of towniness. He's also much less present than usual. It's a far cry from his play as town.

Do you townread him?

[Shoshin]

Xtom, can you give me a quick rundown of where all your reads are at the moment?

So I tried starting one but realised I'm not confident enough in reads to really do this yet

I don't really care if you're confident in the reads, you can change them later, but I'd like to know where you're at.

[Shoshin]

Nulltown
Nauci, Keyser, spotter

Why is Key leaning town?

[Shoshin]

@shoshin re:mewtaph I see what you’re saying about his townread of me, but I kinda feel like his reasoning implicated himself as scum in the process, and I’m not currently very lynchable, so it’s not a very exciting read to arrive at. I want more before I have anything resembling a townread (whether or not it’s based on meta)

How'd he implicate himself as scum?

[Shoshin]

Pedit: “I was thinking about how scum would interact with the shoshin/Varsoon thing and I think scum would just *not interact with it*” which just so happens to be true about his slot

Wouldn't that be towny for him to say, since scum tend not to use reasoning that implicates themselves?

[Shoshin]

Going into this game all I see I about her are people worshipping her town game, and herself boasting about the perfection of her town game.

And then she death tunnels me.

So given the knowledge of my own alignment.

Do I respect her reputation, therefore indicating she's tunnelling me for a mislynch.

Or disregard her reputation and call her a townbeard.

Please explain how I not scum read shosin here.

Where do you see people "worshipping" or me "boasting"? Quote specific posts for evidence of both.

Where do you see any sort of "death tunnel"?

If someone's good as town, do you automatically assume they're scum anytime they're wrong about a player?

[Shoshin]

My record speaks for itself and it's not just Labyrinth. In my initial newbie game, I called scumteam on D1 and was named MVP. In American Presidents, I called scumteam on D2 after which I was nightkilled. Town went on to win. I played a key role in winning Supp Mafia, pushing lynches on scum from D2 to the last day phase, when we won. I lynched scum in the recent Epic game, after which scum used their sole kill in the whole game on me. I've won all my town games on this site except the one that you were in, where again I told you not to mislynch Irrelephant (you did), told town not to mislynch Reck (they did), and then got screwed by Nos trolling.

You really need to get over yourself.

This is the definition of boasting

That's not this game. WTF?

[Shoshin]

1. Shoshin who gets what Shoshin wants will lose games--see TAZ.

I was voting scum on the last day phase and never mislynched. If I got what I wanted, town never mislynches Irrelephant, never mislynches Reck, and lynches NSG (who was scum).

[Shoshin]

And varsoon has steeped your every vote this game and says you never mislynch. And others have steeped you too

So one of your strongest townreads is the player who sheeps scum's every move and props up scum as worthy of sheeping?

[Shoshin]

But you gotta look beyond Shoshin's mentality/approach and

stretch your mind

a bit further.

Varsoon copying my language. Progress!

[Shoshin]

she does have moments of absolutely intense accuracy tho. also lol at scum!shoshin replicating this posting

It's not just that I can't replicate this level of posting, it's that I just don't care to. I hate being scum and just don't have the will to put this much effort into doing something I hate.

And thank you for defending my read accuracy. Regardless what anyone says, I stand by my reads being above average in comparison to the other players in my games, regardless of the game you look at.

[Shoshin]

1. Shoshin who gets what Shoshin wants will lose games--see TAZ.

I was voting scum on the last day phase and never mislynched. If I got what I wanted, town never mislynches Irrelephant, never mislynches Reck, and lynches NSG (who was scum).

I was specifically referring to going with the No Lynch over lynching conf-scum NSG.
But that's neither here nor there.

Yeah, your problem is that you want to ignore everything I've ever done to focus on a single play that I made that didn't actually cause the loss of a game but in your mind did because you're just sort of obsessive about this point as a matter of mafia theory.

I'll admit that no lynching was worse than lynching scum on that day phase, but that doesn't somehow suddenly mean that I caused the loss in that game, nor does it mean that my reads weren't above average in that game compared to the other players in the game (they were undeniably better than yours on D1, when you were alive), nor does it mean that my reads and play in OTHER games was bad (as I admitted in the endgame to TAZ, that was a bad game for me in large part because I just didn't put anywhere close to the effort or thought that I usually do). And again, I was voting scum at the end of the game. Blaming me for that loss isn't fair at all and I take serious issue with it.

[Shoshin]

Xtom's a bullshitter.

[Shoshin]

Revised reads (towny to scummy):

Irrelephant
the worst
Nauci
Varsoon
Nancy
Creature
Mitillos
Skitter
Mew
Not_Mafia
Saudade
Key
Performer
Xtom

Everything above Saudade is towny. I think it's very likely that the scum are among Key/Performer/Xtom/Saudade, though if I'm wrong about that, then we'll need to seriously reevaluate everyone.

Whatever the case, I'm never lynching Irrelephant, the worst, or Nauci.

[Shoshin]

Actually, the entire re-focus to Xtoxm over Key makes me very uncomfortable about Nauci.

I'm confident Nauci's town, but I would like to see a wagon build on Key. I think competing wagons on any of my bottom three scumreads would benefit this game a lot.

[Shoshin]

Is Key a force of nature as scum? I feel like he's much more aggressive as town, in a way that he hasn't been in this game, even when he's been here.

[Shoshin]

Varsoon, why are you still townreading Xtom despite totally bullshitted reads?

[Shoshin]

It's just like
I see a lot of myself in Xtoxm in this game
And it bothers me when so many people can justify scumreading him but not me.

He's been pocketing you all game, so maybe try to separate yourself from that for a moment.

What specifically do you see of yourself in him that makes him towny this game? Like, he could be similar to you as a person and still be scum, right? What's the specific towny response that you're seeing?

You've done a lot of things that he hasn't done. If all you'd done was play like him, I'd be scumreading you. You've dropped some massive town tells in this game. He hasn't.

From my perspective, Xtom is scummy because he's acting on the basis of things he doesn't actually believe and he's doing it with a pro-scum intent. He doesn't actually believe that I have perfect read accuracy, for example, yet he holds me to that standard and then scumreads me for being "wrong" about him. To me, that looks like scum acting on the basis of things he doesn't actually believe in order to push a mislynch. Why would town do this?

[Shoshin]

Actually Xtoxm is reminding me of usual large game me as well. Check gunner mafia or heroes wanted. I seriously don't think this is scum coasting so much as town who isn't super comfortable / ~~in the zone~~

Maybe. I don't mind leaving him alive for a couple days to see how he plays.

How are you feeling about a Performer lynch at this point?

[Shoshin]

Who's to say I'm not scum and haven't just pocketed you by dropping those 'towntells' and AtE'ing like a caught chump?

I don't like this. This is the sort of thing you tend to say as scum.

[Shoshin]

Also like Xtoxm is such an unlikely townread for Creature to call before the wagon fully dissipated. Just noticed this

Yeah I think this is a good point on town Creature.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Kokichi

[Shoshin]

the worst, you around for a bit?

[Shoshin]

What's the point of this?

I don't want to lynch Key today.

[Shoshin]

Nauci's paranoia of me feels pretty towny. I think faking that sort of subtle paranoia is one of the hardest things for scum to do.

[Shoshin]

What's the point of this?

I don't want to lynch Key today.

So that ruled out everything but the freshly replaced slot?

Like, it's hard to imagine scum Nauci engaging in this line of questioning close to deadline when she knows it's very unlikely that scum ever get me mislynched. And it's also very hard to imagine Nauci thinking that she'd manipulate me into townreading her with this line of questioning. This is very towny from her. And there's other instances of the same thing throughout the game. Her questions have been on point, kinda reminds me of myself.

I have Nauci up there with the worst & Irrelephant as really strong townreads. So I'm very curious about these scumvibes that others get from her??

[Shoshin]

the worst, who is in your lynch pool?

[Shoshin]

I love starcraft..anyone wanna tell me anything I should know?

Your lack of disappointment (about alignment, among other things) feels very telling at this moment...

[Shoshin]

I'm never lynching Nauci, so unless you think I'm that wrong about a townread (which has literally never been the case), don't lynch her.

[Shoshin]

I still think Varsoon's town.

[Shoshin]

I think scum is among Kokichi, Xtom, Performer, Key, Not_Mafia, Mew, Skitter, and maybe Mitillos.

I think Irrelephant, the worst, and Nauci are town to the point where I'm never lynching. If they're scum, they can win because they're playing beyond anything I've seen scum ever do.

Varsoon, Creature, Nancy are likely town. It's hard to see them as scum. Possible, but very unlikely.

Varsoon's rage is within his scumrange but he's usually more angry as town, as a general matter. I don't think it's indicative in this game, especially in relation to me. I think his approach to the game since the rage has been exceptionally town motivated -- he easily could have justified derailing this game in a much more pro-scum fashion, continuing to push a back-and-forth and nitpicking everything I said. Instead, he's actually doing his best to work with me, and I think the way he reevaluated everything, as well as the timing of it, was very towny. There's a few other things I picked up from reading his games that I think are strong town-tells for him, though I'll keep those to myself for the moment, because I'm fairly sure he's unconscious of them.

If any of my top townreads (Irrelpehant, the worst, or Nauci) strongly townread any of the playeres in my poe (Kokichi, Xtom, Performer, Key, Not_Mafia, Mew, Skitter, Mitillos), then I'd remove them from the poe. I think if we work collectively, we should be able to narrow this down for a very high probability lynch.

[Shoshin]

Average reading speed is 200 wpm.
You haven't posted at all on-site between the replace-in filling and you posting here, so I'm to assume you took the 1 hour and 46 minutes to read the scum PT and formulate a response.

That puts us at 20800 words
The average post in a scum PT is about 27 words,
so 770 posts
25 posts per page
30 pages?

IF that's the case and you flip scum then I know your scum buddies are very vocal scum threaders, so...

Real talk though thoughts on the game?
Have you read any at all?

This is one of the most absurd ways of scumhunting I've ever seen.

[Shoshin]

I'm never lynching Nauci, so unless you think I'm that wrong about a townread (which has literally never been the case), don't lynch her.

I’m pretty much mindmelding with you on your Nauci townread.

Good. Keep her alive when I die.

[Shoshin]

Everything is NAI for me.

Process of elimination points to you...

[Shoshin]

Not_Mafia feels town to me. I'd rather lynch Performer.

[Shoshin]

I can give you a couple reasons NM's town. His opening post isn't how I expect him to enter the game as scum. He didn't quickhammer when given the opportunity, which is very towny for him unless Xtom's his partner. And he just felt much less awkwardly self-conscious than when he's scum.

[Shoshin]

Fun game!

[Shoshin]

NM reads self conscious and awkward to you when he's scum? that's weird, he plays it safe but I don't think he's all that restrained tonally as scum

I think all scum are more self-conscious than their town counterparts. Even you, and you're pretty unrestrained as scum.

[Shoshin]

Creature, this applies to you too. Too close to deadline to be making fun of existing wagons or joking about being wagoned or self voting. Who are you scum reading?

Also

Scum on this site self votes a lot

Actually I've been selfvoting because of Mini 2044, where I happened to give good reads under pressure.

This made me laugh.

[Shoshin]

Can we lynch Irrelephant pls?

Never. Why are you trying to lynch town?

[Shoshin]

How much time do we have before deadline?

[Shoshin]

And the main lynches are Kokichi, Performer, Not_Mafia, and Mew?

[Shoshin]

Hmm, tough decision between them.

I'd say exclude Mew. Lynch between the other three.

It would definitely be helpful to know how everyone sorts between these three, from most scummy to least.

[Shoshin]

We're not lynching Mew today.

Skitter, can you talk to me about why you prefer Koki over Not_Mafia?

[Shoshin]

I think we're overthinking this.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Shoshin]

Irrel, can you clarify your role for me? I read the wiki but I'm still confused. What exactly do you do? You shoot anyone who visits you, regardless of the type of role?

[Shoshin]

Everyone voting Not_Mafia is town. But I'd still like to see a competing wagon on one of our other suspects.

[Shoshin]

Koki & Perf are viable counterwagons to Not_Mafia. Creature & the worst aren't.

[Shoshin]

the worst is scum, mark my words, write it in stone

Why?

[Shoshin]

I think we're overthinking this.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

The game state was so weird I felt like I needed to start exploring zanier ideas

I have this feeling like regardless of who the d1 flip is if it's town I'm gonna yell FUCK FUCK FUCK FUCK regardless and this resonates deeply

Not a scummy feeling to have. Nor a scummy way to read Nauci's feeling.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Kokichi

Let's lynch this.

[Shoshin]

He asked Shoshin 2-3 times why she is townreading me, and even though she never responded (this will come up again when I do my Shoshin read) he didn't do anything about it (as far as I can see).

I feel like I responded to this.

[Shoshin]

Koki, what exactly is your role & character?

[Shoshin]

If not them, who?

[Shoshin]

Who is Performer's partners, Nancy?

[Shoshin]

I am not voting NM today. That slot is almost certainly flipping green.

Why?

[Shoshin]

I don't like the idea of lynching Mew.

Can someone explain why the sudden townreads on Not_Mafia?

[Shoshin]

The only reason I see to think Not_Mafia is town is Koki expecting a town flip as if Koki knows what's coming. And that turns on Koki actually being scum, which isn't clear.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

[Shoshin]

@Nancy

NM's "scumhunting" is much more superficial/petty than his usual scumhunting as town.

I understand that you're worried he's mislynch bait. But you can't just assume anyone who plays like NM is always mislynch bait. You have to learn how to read that type of player, because there are differences between town/scum.

I'm fairly good at reading these types of players. And in the past, I've strongly townread NM on the basis of one or two posts, in situations where nobody else saw it. I haven't been wrong about him yet. Is there any reason you think he's town here other than because RC told you to be careful about mislynching this type of player?

[Shoshin]

@Skitter

NM's first posts gave me a town vibe. I thought he would have entered the thread differently as scum. Then I saw the non-quickhammer. So I had him as town. But then he started pushing Irrelephant, which tells me N_M isn't actually scumhunting. And here we are lynching him.

[Shoshin]

The fact that ur on this wagon makes me uneasy

Exactly my response.

[Shoshin]

Can you help me understand why you're scumreading Mew?

[Shoshin]

Can you help me understand why you're scumreading Mew?

Because. He isnt acting like last game. Tough to explain

You don't have an explanation.

For the record, the reason I'm defending Mew is because I just finished playing with him, and in trying to sort him as town/scum when he was one of the last 3 players in my poe (basically just like in this game), I decided to go and read a bunch of his games and I actually think I have a pretty good grasp on his meta, since I was able to correctly read him as town last time.

I don't believe for a second he played different than another town game, at least not in a way that makes him scummy.

[Shoshin]

Lack of original thinking and nuance

No real opinions.

Coasting since he got wagoned

Not pushing any scumreads

This basically feels like half his games as town. Is he doing anything here that is actually scummy for him?

[Shoshin]

Can you help me understand why you're scumreading Mew?

Because. He isnt acting like last game. Tough to explain

You don't have an explanation.

For the record, the reason I'm defending Mew is because I just finished playing with him, and in trying to sort him as town/scum when he was one of the last 3 players in my poe (basically just like in this game), I decided to go and read a bunch of his games and I actually think I have a pretty good grasp on his meta, since I was able to correctly read him as town last time.

I don't believe for a second he played different than another town game, at least not in a way that makes him scummy.

Skitter just modded a game he was in. She scumreads him. He was town that game.

Skitter's scumread doesn't explain why you scumread him, nor why it's "tough to explain." She seemed to have no problem explaining, so I assume your reasoning is different?

[Shoshin]

Lack of original thinking and nuance

No real opinions.

Coasting since he got wagoned

Not pushing any scumreads

This basically feels like half his games as town. Is he doing anything here that is actually scummy for him?

lack of being townie

What specifically does he always do as town that he's not doing here?

[Shoshin]

I've yet to incorrectly read NM, so maybe that will sway you, Nancy.

The problem with N_M is that he's not actually scumhunting. And when he's town, he actually scumhunts.

[Shoshin]

Lack of original thinking and nuance

No real opinions.

Coasting since he got wagoned

Not pushing any scumreads

This basically feels like half his games as town. Is he doing anything here that is actually scummy for him?

lack of being townie

What specifically does he always do as town that he's not doing here?

has original, nuanced thoughts

has opinions (soemtimes controversial ones)

doesn't coast; keeps up the game

has scumreads and pushes them

He doesn't always do these things as town, so that's not a very good reason to scumread him. Why are you maintaining that scumread?

[Shoshin]

I've yet to incorrectly read NM, so maybe that will sway you, Nancy.

The problem with N_M is that he's not actually scumhunting. And when he's town, he actually scumhunts.

But that’s my issue, I disagree with you on this and in YGM, he did absolutely nothing and still flipped town.

There's a difference between N_M appearing to do nothing but actually thinking about the game in a meaningful way and N_M trying to appear like he's doing things while actually doing nothing.

Can you link YGM so I can see specifically what's on your mind here?

[Shoshin]

Irrelephant, Shoshin: reads list before EOD?

Never lynch Irrelephant, you, or the worst.

Reevaluate everyone else after the flips.

[Shoshin]

I'm very sad that Irrelephant died. Didn't expect that at all. Part of me suspects Koki is a scum bulletproof or protective of some kind that allowed scum to kill Irrelephant.

I'm thinking all the scum has to be amoung Kokichi, Performer, Mewtaph, Mitillos, Xtom, Key, and Varsoon. Everyone else is pretty town, especially the worst & Nauci.

I know that doesn't narrow too much. If anyone has strong reasons to townread any of the players in my scum pile, that would be helpful at this point. I'll also reread and see what I can come up with myself.

[Shoshin]

Why Performer?

[Shoshin]

Why are you assuming scum killed Creature?

[Shoshin]

Creature wasn't a potential mislynch. Not even close.

[Shoshin]

I think NM was trolling us. He can do that sometimes, I guess.

In terms of the kills, there's three possibilities: town has another killing role, there's a third party killer, or mafia had two killing powers.

I think the onlyl people who suspected Creature were scummy players -- Performer, Mew -- and Creature wasn't actually on the table as a mislynch at any point. So I don't see his kill coming from town unless one of Performer/Mew is a townie that killed him (and if they are, they should claim ASAP because they're top suspects for lynching today either way).

[Shoshin]

I was wrong. Get over it.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: AlmostNancy

Her belief that NM would flip town didn't have any connection with the reality of the game.

[Shoshin]

When does town!Shoshin ever ignore the extremely confident reads of a dead townie?

Remember when I let a confirmed townie die because I thought their reads were wrong? You know better than to wonder why I'm ignoring the reads of a dead townie. Why are you questioning me for things you shouldn't ever be questioning me for?

[Shoshin]

I think Performer/Mew are the only townies who would have killed Creature. If either claims responsibility for killing Creature, I'm fine leaving them alive as long as they agree to be leashed.

[Shoshin]

@Shoshin: By the same argument, neither did Kokichi's townread on N_M track. I think AlNan was just townreading N_M correctly (though I'd argue it was for a bad reason), and isn't necessarily scummy for it.

Koki isn't Nancy. Town Koki throws out random townreads for reasons that don't have any connection with reality; town Nancy doesn't. Why isn't Nancy scummy for townreading NM? Is there something about her play in other games that makes you think she'd townread NM in that situation? My sense is the opposite, at least based on the sorts of players she scumread in Labyrinth (e.g. TP letters, Chick, Angel, etc.).

[Shoshin]

the worst, Nancy is scum. Please trust me on this.

[Shoshin]

Scum try to stop mislynches all the time, so I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

The questions I'm asking are why Nancy townread NM, does her reasoning fit with her way of thinking as town, and why is she throwing shade at my slot based on a behavior that she knows I do as town (i.e. ignoring the reads of dead townies).