Newbie 1908 [Game Over]

[Nauci]

Harro

[Nauci]

Boonskies we meet again I see

That explains why doughboy replaced out

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Haven't caught up yet; will do so later tonight

[Nauci]

Do you think it’s better to clutch at some straws (which instinctively I feel exist - you are free to disagree) or to vote someone because their name rhymes?

VOTE: rosterfoster for mixing metaphors

[Nauci]

Hmm. Neat. Roster’s at L-2 now.

Who are you masons with this time bruh

[Nauci]

Man, back in my day (so like just over a year ago ) newbie games weren't filled with such tryhards!

Y'all ridiculous

Can't even get RVS to page 4 any more

[Nauci]

Hmm. Neat. Roster’s at L-2 now.

Who are you masons with this time bruh

Roster

@Roster: can you confirm or deny?

Hmm. Neat. Roster’s at L-2 now.

Who are you masons with this time bruh

I just won a 26 player game as SK, so I’m redeemed from that now, haha.

U fockin' wot m8

[Nauci]

so I’m redeemed from that now, haha.

Apparently not in Doughboy's eyes

[Nauci]

A boy who's makin' dat monay

[Nauci]

It kind of warms my cold, dead heart that players in the newbie queue take the game so much more seriously and try so much harder than most of the regulars

[Nauci]

Hmm. Neat. Roster’s at L-2 now.

Who are you masons with this time bruh

Roster

@Roster: can you confirm or deny?

Can I ask why did you follow up on this?

Banter and jokes

Flavor fake claimed Mason with scum in a game I recently modded and even when he flipped vanilla town, the scum who didn't object to the claim won the game

Doughboy was in it and was uh... Not happy about that.

Boon can be nutty but at least it's always entertaining, even if mildly infuriating

Was hoping to provoke the game to be a bit more lighthearted

[Nauci]

why do you want a longer RVS?

I think it's fun and promotes better camaraderie and positive spirits

It also sometimes gives PRs room to crumb a little, but that's maybe 2%

It also often has telling moments because it's harder for scum to act truly casual than to provide information laden analysis or grandstanding

[Nauci]

I think jumping immediately into analysis posts by definition means nothing will have a whole lot of grounds

And it ends up looking more like showing off rhetorical skill than productive sorting

Besides

I've never had a game where a bunch of analytical people didn't need something more crazy or dramatic or nonsensical to get real conversation started, like a Miller claim or debate about policy lynching or something

Reactions to sensible stuff is less telling, compared to reactions to low hanging fruit posts

[Nauci]

Hmm...

Komodo is town.

Nauci is a nice person, but nice person and town are not the same thing.

I’m getting good vibes from xwing due to their openness

The game is more fun when everyone is a nice person and no one is building up frustration

Yet

Being frustrated and angry is the most sortable content for many players

:Thinking:

[Nauci]

what do you think of salamander and jim?
are you good/accurate at reading flavorleaf?

I don't have enough thoughts to post anything meaty right now

And no I don't think I have a good read on flavor leaf, except that he's vastly unpredictable and prone to shenanigans (but probably much less so in a newbie)

[Nauci]

This is a good batch we have right here

Happy holidays everybody

I'm baking cookies and cooking the rest of the day

But not before doing this VOTE: FLAVOR LEAF

[Nauci]

@Flavor Leaf: Since you play so many newbie games, can you link a couple of town and a couple of scum games you think would represent your play style?

[Nauci]

Spiderverse was 11/10

Go see it

That is all

[Nauci]

I’ve also played in newbie games throughout the past year and a half and have never rolled scum in a newbie.

U fockin' wot m8

Side note, @everyone:

If you highlight a portion of a post and hit quote, it'll quote just the highlighted portion. Super useful!

Unless you're on mobile and accidentally hit Report 3 consecutive times and get mad and give up

Not that I would know anything about that

[Nauci]

versus Day 2 Page 16

You'd be amazed how many newbie games are over by page 16

[Nauci]

I'm leaning town on vivit and Nauci

Y tho

[Nauci]

I like how the game where I have been the least serious has been the one where I've been taken most seriously

[Nauci]

Not to say I've been lying or anything; I just haven't put my effort pants on yet

Part of why I joined a newbie is because I wanted more experience reading players without doing extensive, hardcore meta dives

Instead of looking at whether or not a player's habits and tone match their previous games as whichever alignment, it's almost purely about figuring out who has the most genuine posting and consistent and clear read progression

Flavor Leaf is only an exception here because I have enough experience with him outside of newbie games that it would confuse my understanding of his probably dramatically different demeanor as a teaching role in newbie games

[Nauci]

She*

[Nauci]

He said I seemed townie, yet decided to put me to L-2. Interesting.

VOTE: Munch

Why munch when she said basically the same reasoning as Komodo?

[Nauci]

She, sorry. Also, you wanted newbie games of mine, right?

Ones that you feel represent your play well

But it's kind of moot because I asked due to not easily finding a scum game and you said you haven't had one o_o

[Nauci]

when Nauci suggested wagon on Salamander

I did what?

[Nauci]

Munch is a town lean

The rest of you got work to do

But not on Christmas

[Nauci]

What makes you say Munch is a town lean? I'm not getting any scum reads on her, but I'm not getting any town reads either.

I second this question.

That's for me to know and for y'all to learn

[Nauci]

Hope everyone had a great holiday!

I saw spiderverse again but with more people

Oh hey look what I just found in my pocket VOTE: Jim Hawkins

[Nauci]

im picking up some negative gut feels on munch slot, but i'll sort her as town for now..

Oh?

[Nauci]

Why would you town sort someone you have gut negative feels about?

Do you see logical town indications that overpowered "gut" negative feelings? What are they? Which posts pinged your gut?

[Nauci]

should explain himself

What do you want him to explain

[Nauci]

Also I saw the new Spiderman movie and HOT DAMN it was so amazing. One of the few movies that almost made me cry

Stan Lee bits made me cry 4x now

[Nauci]

I like Munch so far but this post makes me lose confidence in her as town

Regardless if you agree or disagree with her analysis

Do you think it is town motivated or scum motivated?

[Nauci]

I've been getting scum reads on Jim all game, and with Salamander's more recent posts my suspicions of him have weakened a bit; his posts seem more scrubby than scummy (though that could be exactly what he wants us to think, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now).

VOTE: Jim Hawkins should explain himself or walk the plank.

jim hawkins has been prodded

I am hopping on the Jim wagon, I feel he's lurking, like someone said earlier. I also don't believe that he's offering much (like someone said earlier about me lol) I also would like to state that now that it's after the holidays I will be way more active on here . I'm pretty new and may not understand all the meta so bare with me .

UNVOTE: rosterfoster
VOTE: Jim Hawkins

I love that magical moment when I develop scum reads

VOTE: salamander

[Nauci]

The more I look at Salamander's recent posts the scummier he looks after all, especially taking into account Nauci's analysis of him here. Since the day is drawing to a close, I think I'll follow xwing and Nauci: VOTE: Salamander.

I find it especially interesting that Salamander went on the offensive, following me, immediately when I remove my vote from him...

That vote was L-1

Roster and munch are my town reads (I've actually been town reading roster since like page 3, but I'm not over the mixed metaphor yet, okay)

Jim is... Probably enjoying the holidays? Idk. His posts are a tad lacking but not highly egregious.

Vivit is null but I didn't like the "explain himself" phrase for whatever gut reason

But that post from Salamander right after the prod alert felt like going after low hanging fruit, while his earlier posts had the praxtice-in-rhetoric feel I previously mentioned

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Nauci]

especially taking into account Nauci's analysis of him here.

All I did was quote 3 posts

So... what did you glean from it? What did you think my "analysis" was?

Rorschach quotes test

[Nauci]

I'm highly suspicious of Flavor so far but I haven't had time to read his past IC games

[Nauci]

salamander and vivit have each recieved their first prod, and have 24 hours to post before being replaced

jim hawkins has been prodded

Side note

[Nauci]

Munchmellow, are you scum reading Salamander?

[Nauci]

With 3 days left we may be in intent-to-hammer/claim territory

[Nauci]

btw, how do you link to a post, so you don't have to quote the whole thing?

You can use the tag around the local number of the post ([post]171 in this case). Or you can use [post=######] where ###### is the site wide post number. You can pull this out of the URL of the post by clicking on the local number. The url will say something like viewtopic.php?[b]p=10631666[/b]#p10631666. This is super useful if you're linking to a post from a different game (like when posting meta content).

Also, if you are quoting from another thread, if you hit the MSG button on a post to send a PM to the person who wrote the post, it will auto generate not only a quote of the post, but a link to the game it was in. I frequently use this just to copy and paste that generated content, like if I want to pre-write a post but it's locked during night time and I can't otherwise quote, or if I'm quoting from a different thread and want to make it obvious where it came from.

Example:

Subject: Newbie 1908 [Day 1]

We have the four on wagon, plus xwing and Munch willing to give intent to hammer.

That is 6 of the 9. Take out Jim since being the wagon, that only leaves Komodo and myself.

I feel if Jim is scum, scum is closer to the end of the wagon/in the intents.

If Jim is town, then I like to think both scum are in that 6, either way, I feel that makes Komodo town.

I feel that because Jim happened kind of out of nowhere, that Jim is more likely town than scum.

However, @Jim, it’s time for you to claim, bud.

[Nauci]

We have the four on wagon, plus xwing and Munch willing to give intent to hammer.

Xwing is the first person on said wagon

[Nauci]

We have the four on wagon, plus xwing and Munch willing to give intent to hammer.

That is 6 of the 9. Take out Jim since being the wagon, that only leaves Komodo and myself.

I feel if Jim is scum, scum is closer to the end of the wagon/in the intents.

If Jim is town, then I like to think both scum are in that 6, either way, I feel that makes Komodo town.

I feel that because Jim happened kind of out of nowhere, that Jim is more likely town than scum.

However, @Jim, it’s time for you to claim, bud.

The wagon on Jim dissipated and moved to Salamander after I voted Salamander for his vote on Jim. Jim I think has 1 vote on him? Salamander has Xwing, me, Roster, and Vivit I think.

[Nauci]

I'm pretty active right now so I'm going to unvote until I see Salamander post, and give Jim (or Jim's replacement, if need be) some time to actually participate before we potentially end the day. I've seen too many accidental or intentional hammers in newbie games to go to bed with a -1

UNVOTE: Salamander Consider my vote on there in spirit, however.

[Nauci]

i thought you wanted to hone your skills without the use of meta?
dont read his meta, just read him as he is here..

Because I have meta knowledge of the very different version of Flavor Leaf outside of newbie games, I needed to read his IC style as a sort of palate cleanser, if that makes sense?

Everyone else I'm going to have to cold read, which is nice.

[Nauci]

Hmm, then that means Jim probably is scum, and someone helped transfer wagons.

When I voted Salamander, I thought the 2 votes from Roster and Vivit followed

really

quickly. What do you think of their votes?

I didn't like the way Roster switched his vote but I was otherwise town reading him. I'm not sure how I feel about Vivit's. On one hand, it wasn't unreasonable. On the other, it feels way too eager to sheep me and cast my empty quote post as analysis.

[Nauci]

I still haven't decided what to make of the instant town reads on me

I mean I was really burned out and when I came back I've been taking a much more lackadaisical approach, so I sauntered all up in here like I

own

rent the place, and I've never been so quickly town read or had my posts taken so seriously in my life

I'm not sure if it's alignment indicative but it feels like I fell into the mirror dimension

[Nauci]

Looks like Jim is probably going to need replacement

[Nauci]

Day 1 lasting fewer than 12 pages or so would be adorable at this point haha

I've seen too many games (13-15 player, though) with >100 page day 1s. It feels like we've had woefully few interactions in this game in comparison though: like we're strangely comfortable lynching a player from a couple of signals.

I look forward to the text wall, pvtUrist

[Nauci]

This might be a matter of playstyle or experience, but I found your analysis extremely surface level. A lot of it seems to be based on the percentage of serious posts, or serious-looking posts.

Do you think there's scum motivation to making a joke/rvs entry post

immediately after replacing into a game

, commenting on an RVS post as I caught up?

In addition, even though you clearly read the post where I explained my comment about Doughboy replacing out, you left your "scumslip?" comment untouched: intentional misrepresentation, or laziness?

Do you actively see scum intentions behind anything I've said, or do you simply see only that banter = scummy, and skipped past all of the posts where I've actively contributed and helped drive the pace of the game and drawn out alignment indicative content? Or maybe this is just what you thought would be a potentially easy way to fake scumhunting walls of text by just posting the fluffier quotes from me?

Why do you think that giving a player who has, by your own account, only made 3 posts, some room to defend themselves, is scummy? Why do you dismiss the idea that 3 posts can be scummy posts at the same time?

[Nauci]

I find this an odd line of reasoning. You felt that Jim was likelier town because of the speed of the wagon (I don't disagree with this), but then you say he's probably scum because it dissipated over to Salamander. The person who helped transfer wagons was really Nauci (for me anyway), yet she is a townread for you.

That line of reasoning is something that is pretty commonplace for more experienced players on the site to have.

Analysis on wagons and how they form is often counter-intuitive. Scum is less likely to actively push a counter-wagon to their partner, but more likely to follow one. Wagons that form on scummy people but seemingly inexplicably change to a counter-wagon often contain scum voting to save their partner. But sometimes, it happens because the initial wagon contained scum, for scummy reasons.

It's a piece of the puzzle, and town/scum reads of who the voters are, plus when and why they voted, are the other pieces.

I think there are reasons to question Flavor's comment on the wagons in that it ignores some of the narratives that were happening with these 2, but the rule-of-thumb he's implying isn't illogical.

[Nauci]

You implied that Vivit was lying by saying she was scum reading Jim based on just his 3 posts, which would imply that it's basically impossible to scum read a player if they only have 3 posts. But when she said that she wanted him to come defend himself, you said it was fence-sitting. That seems excessively hypocritical.

[Nauci]

Wagon/vote count analysis is too big a topic for me to just explain.

Here's a primer on it, but understanding what Flavor meant comes from a lot of research/experience.

[Nauci]

Ok but where are they?

There's an ISO button next to the post number on each of my posts. You can find them there.

It's a comically bad misrepresentation of my play to quote 6 casual posts from my early entrance, then confidently imply that none of my 54 posts have any contribution

[Nauci]

However, my point wasn’t really about the wagon-reading, but more that Flavor implies that scum would be the catalyst for switching the wagon (if I misunderstood this point, then it makes sense). To me the catalyst for the wagon-switching was you, yet flavor townreads you quite strongly.

Gotcha.

Valid question.

[Nauci]

{roster, Munch, Komodo, Salamander, xwing} lean-town

either reads throughout the thread (example being roster + salamander TvT interaction on page 1), or nothing of their posts pings my suspicions yet.

The latter seems like very shaky grounds for a town-lean instead of null read.

[Nauci]

that is what I imply.
Also "seeming excessively hypocritical" is an opinion, not a proper argument

Oh gee oh boy let's break into a semantics discussion; everybody's favorite!

I can restate all of my sentences as if they're the objective, scientific truth, if you'd like.

Or we can continue to play mafia, where almost everything is a viewpoint, an opinion, an evaluation, and a suspicion.

I don't need to prove you've misrepresented me because everyone else has read my posts and actually digested the content. It's up to you to process them yourself.

You said you've caught up entirely, but your reads all seemed to be formed on your reactions to the first 100-150 posts in the game. How did those reads progress?

[Nauci]

I've got to go to bed since it's 7:30 AM, but I'll leave y'all with this:

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is quite possibly the hallmark example of scum trying to fake scum hunting.

-Town reads given with no stated basis
-Case(s) formed from low-hanging-fruit behavior (the case on me, due to my fluff posting for several pages)
-Lack of read progressions (no read progressions/comments on anything between the first 100 posts and the live engagement with Roster and I)
-Misrepresentation that is more in line with an agenda than a misread (doubling and tripling down on implying I've not made any contribution instead of re-evaluating)
-Doubling down on

not

providing basis for reads (in a hypocritical way nonetheless! Literally one post after criticizing me for posting "an opinion, not an argument," he goes with the defense that his town reads are an opinion?)

It's an evolution from newb-scum play though, which involves struggling so hard to form scum reads on players they know are town, that every post comes out as hand-wringing in alphabetic form aka fence-sitting.

[Nauci]

UNVOTE:

Thanks for all of the live responses, Pvt. I'm pretty satisfied that your slot is probably-town.

Real-time interaction is absolutely the best way to sort people (with a sprinkling of mild infuriation)

Sorry for all the snark!

-_- I can't even go to sleep; gotta go run errands now

[Nauci]

Tell me, Urist. If you think Nauci is scum as strongly as you seem to, why aren’t you voting him?

I am confused as to why this got so heated so fast.

Pedit: Oh. That’s why.

Am a her

[Nauci]

I'm pretty satisfied that your slot is probably-town.

For the record, this is because I'm fairly certain that almost no scum would be capable of both real-time defense without being too nervous/crumbling, and simultaneously making minute read updates like in 239 on vivit's post. It'd be an awful lot of faking to juggle at once. Plus, this is probably town-tunneling.

[Nauci]

Hat tip to Shoshin for being the great sensei of aggressive 1v1 sorting

[Nauci]

I’m getting misrepped pretty hard. I clearly told Nauci that I don’t believe the people sheeping me is necessarily alignment indicative because of the pull he has.

I feel like at least one of the pronouns here is a typo because I'm mildly confused

[Nauci]

Also, flavor, you've told us some meta analysis of the wagons, but what did you make of the merit of those scum reads themselves?

[Nauci]

I’m getting misrepped pretty hard. I clearly told Nauci that I don’t believe the people sheeping me is necessarily alignment indicative because of the pull he has.

I feel like at least one of the pronouns here is a typo because I'm mildly confused

I told you that, then I got misrepped and said I was saying the opposite of what Roster said I was saying.

You don't believe people sheeping

you

is necessarily alignment indicative because

he

has a lot of pull?

Who's "he"? And why does their town pull have anything to do with sheeping you?

I'm so confused

[Nauci]

Oops I shouldn't have responded mid-Lyft without fully catching up lol

Flavor, I mostly got confused because you said he. I'm a woman.

[Nauci]

you seem very scummy. I won't push a wagon on you yet

Por que no?

Also, why mention the case I made against him without mentioning that I now town read there?

[Nauci]

My only regret is that other people weren't awake during it all

[Nauci]

I was also thinking, what if Jim and Nauci were both scum and with everyone reading Nauci as town and following her and Jim being so inactive, it would be easy for Nauci to change wagon to Salamander. Than after PvtUrist replaced Jim they had to create a distraction, so it wouldn't be obvious that Nauci changed the wagon. And what better way to do it than to accuse her of being Scum. I mean, there was no real danger, since everyone trusts Nauci. We would also expect if Jim's slot would be scum, a scum would be happy with Salamander wagon and so he would lay low - so going after Nauci would also make him look townie. And after some bickering, they were both happy to say - ok, I think you are town for now. So it could be just a scum vs scum interaction to keep us of their tracks. I don't know if I am making any sense here, but it is just a thought that I had. I don't want to act on it, because it kind of seems complicated to me right now and I think we need to see what happens in N1 before we act on that theory.

I literally dream of simultaneously having scum game this good AND having a partner who'd actually be around to execute it with me

But alas

No

[Nauci]

it helps you hide a litttle)

Not if she announces she's not changing it

[Nauci]

Oh oops I think I associated avatar with pronoun

I don't think either are bad wagons but it's pretty disappointing that we're getting closer to the end of day and salamander never came back

I do find it odd for vivit to latch on to my scum read of Pvt without considering the follow up, but I'm not sure if that's something scum would do since it's kinda sloppy

[Nauci]

Vivit, I follow your train of thought because that was the reaction I first had. Everything he post was so superficially based that it must have been out of trying hard to appear to be scum hunting instead of actually doing so.

And those sentiments still hold (strongly, even), but idk if newer scum could have held up like he did under the amount of scrutiny I put him through, while re-evaluating some of his reads.

[Nauci]

VOTE: Salamander Since we're at just about 24 hours left

That's an official L-1

[Nauci]

I think if those slots need replacement, we should probably get an extension so that the replacements have time to read the game and interact. But idk if that will happen if they are not replaced? It's hard to say because their prod timer kinda coincides with the end of day timer a bit.

[Nauci]

I have a bad feeling that Salamander's gonna flip town.

Do you have a conscious reason for this?

[Nauci]

Thanks, Skitter!

[Nauci]

UNVOTE: until I have time to finish reading the day

I can't even explain how much loathing I have for not being around when lynches are hammered as of late

I'll be back in a few hours

[Nauci]

Welcome, nikk!

Not sure how the extension will affect everyone's reads and if people still want you to claim

I appreciate the catch up; I'm going to go back and ISO munchmellow

When you say you disagreed with my assessment, do you mean you scum read PvtUrist? Who else?

[Nauci]

We've got the extra time munchmellow; why not re-evaluate the game state based on Nikk's posts?

Being resigned to that lynch order is not productive

In fact, the number of people who were willing to lynch Salamander because of meh reasons makes me rethink the slot

[Nauci]

I believe xwing's push on salamander and I thought salamander's push on Jim was scummy but since before pvturist replaced in, a lot of the rest of the game became complacent about today. I expected this to change with the news of the extension, and am surprised it has not.

[Nauci]

My town reads are xwing, roster, and komodo at this time; the rest I need to re-evaluate

[Nauci]

Welcome, nikk!

Not sure how the extension will affect everyone's reads and if people still want you to claim

I appreciate the catch up; I'm going to go back and ISO munchmellow

When you say you disagreed with my assessment, do you mean you scum read PvtUrist? Who else?

I had thought you flipped that to slight town am I wrong?
I believe Pvt came out of the gate hot but could have just been excited to play. Neutral.

I was saying I town read pvturist

So I assumed that your disagreement meant you scumread him/didn't think there was reason to town read him

[Nauci]

Happy New year everyone!

[Nauci]

Read updates;

{Urist} conf town
{Nauci, roster, xwing, Komodo} strong/lean town
{Nikk, FL} lean town/null
{vivit, Munch} lean scum

Feel free to ask why

I feel plagiarized

[Nauci]

Lazily hitching? Really?! I was very open about my thinking and I explained every vote or scum/town reading I made.

I'm struggling to think of a universe where town!Munch makes this comment

Nah, indignation like that is pretty frequently towny

Or at least

I'm guilty of it all the time

[Nauci]

ISOed Munchmellow

Still basically think that the slot is almost unparalleled in expressing a transparency of thought process in this game; the interactions with Pvt reinforced that.

Pretty much the opposite of Flavor, who has read as very opaque to me. Not sure if that's alignment indicative for him but he's certainly in my PoE pool.

I have at many times been able to understand Vivit's posts and points of view; the only posts I was scum reading were the nervous over explanations for several actions. Unlike munch, who confidently pointed out that she was never wrong, vivit has repeatedly tried to over-explain actions. It's hard for me to say if this is alignment indicative either, I guess.

I'm rescinding my town read on Pvt because A: it was kind of a reaction test to hard town read there, B:

[Nauci]

Ugh I hate when I accidentally hit post on mobile when I meant to just go back and edit things

[Nauci]

I'm rescinding my town read on Pvt because it was kind of a reaction test to hard town read there. I wanted to see if other people would sheep it blindly. I wanted to see if it would make PvtUrist feel overly comfortable/complacent.

I'd say that pvturist's subsequent posts have continued to have very shallow reads, and generally kinda sheep the game state/my reads. I don't think most of the people happy to vote vivit have explained that read, and I don't think most people have justified why they have town reads on roster or others.

I'm struggling a bit with scum reads here, I guess.

My town reads are xwing, roster, and munch, though I want to see xwing's updated reads after the last 4 pages of content.

I think vivit/flavor is a possible scum pair, and Nikk/PvtUrist could also be paired with flavor or each other.

Vivit had good posts for the first half of the game but has largely been just trying to push *any* lynch through for the 2nd half, to the point where I doubted the salamander wagon.

Flavor going after roster is odd to me because I don't feel like roster was misrepping so much as trying to get clarification.

PvtUrist hasn't contributed anything since our 1v1 that I think could be town transparency/depth of thought.

Nikk I'm kinda null on and will need to reread. There were some kinda hypocritical bits and some towny bits.

I'm going to ISO all of the above later tonight and see where it leads me, but I really want to see xwing post before I do.

[Nauci]

I’m fairly certain Nikk is town now.


I would much rather we lynched Vivit today, so if people could start making moves towards that outcome I would be happy.

What are your thoughts on the arguments against pvturist? Do you disagree with them since you're voting with him?

[Nauci]

The latest posts by Pvt feel like pocketing me if anything lol

[Nauci]

hey nauci, why is komodo a town read for you?

I thought several posts, including 162 and 192, showed a depth of thought that would have been pretty hard to fake

[Nauci]

The shading is real

Well yeah. That's part of my explanation for why I don't town read you any more.

There's nothing since then that can be construed as outside of a scum range.

I'm not sure what the point or implication of that comment is.

[Nauci]

VOTE: nikk

[Nauci]

I reread Vivit's ISO and it actually contained more towny/transparent looking trains of thought than I remembered. I think that the over-explaination of actions is not so suspicious because it's in response to people instead of pre-emptive?

I'm not really satisfied with Nikk's posts in the thread, which mostly involved a groundless push on munchmellow because her most recent post was potentially scummy (and I had a post somewhat shading it). It read more like an opportunistic push than scum hunting.

I think pvturist's defensive stance, real time or not, might be more a matter of style than alignment. Despite being capable of lively self defense, it has involved content more akin to "no u" than depth of analysis. I think that my initial analysis that all of the content has been either groundless or based on extremely superficial reasoning stands.

[Nauci]

if someone seems scummy, no shit you would push them on it.

I can't tell if you're intentionally misconstruing all of my sentences or not.

One post was potentially scummy but only if the rest of her posting was ignored, which is why it seemed opportunistic. The follow ups were very superficial questioning about something she'd post already.

Me updating my reads on vivit has nothing to do with them? I mean, I don't see how vivit could possibly compel me to defend them to you. That doesn't make any sense unless you think we're both scum, which you don't seem to.

[Nauci]

I'm not sure what the point or implication of that comment is.

(literal) "hasn't contributed anything" =/= (opinion) " can not be construed as outside of a scum range" if that's what you're asking.

My words were "PvtUrist hasn't contributed anything since our 1v1 that I think could be town transparency/depth of thought."

As in, since the 1v1, you haven't contributed anything that I think contains the kind of transparency or depth of thought that constitute obvtown posting.

I don't understand exactly what you mean by the above statement either; the syntax is a bit confusing.

[Nauci]

My flavor read hasn't changed

[Nauci]

I reread Vivit's ISO and it actually contained more towny/transparent looking trains of thought than I remembered. I think that the over-explaination of actions is not so suspicious because it's in response to people instead of pre-emptive?

Is over-explanation of actions considered to be scummy behavior? If so, then I'm probably toast in any game no matter what alignment I am.

Vivit had good posts for the first half of the game but has largely been just trying to push *any* lynch through for the 2nd half, to the point where I doubted the salamander wagon.

Any lynch? I haven't voted for any slot other than Jim/Urist or Salamander/Nikk!

I had the impression that you had made multiple posts about being willing to vote X for the sake of having a lynch, even if you hadn't yet

Did I confuse you with someone else?

[Nauci]

Nikk’s interaction with Munch screams town to me. Especially 365 332.

Deadline is at 5:30am for me btw, so I’m not going to be around when it comes. Slightly concerning that we have no real wagons any more.

What's your view of pvturist?

[Nauci]

VOTE: vivit

7 hours left, that's

L-1

[Nauci]

I wish there were enough to switch right now

Flavor, who do you scum read other than roster

[Nauci]

Like with this many people around we could viably switch to PvtUrist, I think, since the vote on him isn't from or on anyone who seems to be around right now

[Nauci]

That's fair. Fingers crossed!

[Nauci]

Hopefully vivit isn't a TPR

[Nauci]

Aww, sorry Munch

Good job everyone!

I am having a bit of a crisis of faith about my mafia skills after Krazy's Starcraft themed game so I'm mega tilted right now Like, I was way too forgiving about the many times Vivit tried to over-explain every action, which is claaaaaaaassic scum play. Also, I'm very busy with some IRL stuff with deadlines, so not going to be as high activity through Saturday.

I think that Flavor Leaf is almost definitely town because it would be nuts for him to openly and repeatedly defend his scum partner like that throughout the day while essentially only contributing towards a vanity wagon on Roster.

I also rescind my town read on Komodo; Komodo and Nikk are my primary suspects to shake out for the day.

[Nauci]

The WIFOM is high in you. I don't think we can rule this out.

It would be insane for the IC to play scum this badly and try to ride to victory on that path

I literally don't think Flavor Leaf would do that; there's no circular reasoning on this one, it's a raw deduction

[Nauci]

OTOH, town Nauci could well honestly have read Vivit as town (it's not like Vivit played badly, at least one town experienced player (Nauci and Flavour) townread him quite hard) and was trying to avert this lynch, But why to PvtUrist?

This is part of my current crisis of faith in my play

I legitimately should have scumread there, hard, because of the

constant

over-explanation of every action. It's like scumhunting 101 to pick up on people worrying that hard about how their actions look

But I've been letting people shake me by just challenging my assertions, where previously I'd have dropped a wallpost in support of my read

Instead, I went through Vivit's ISO, and couldn't find exactly why I felt like they were pushing multiple times to just about let any lynch go thorugh, and was shaken, thinking maybe just newb players of any alignment would over-explain their actions

I thought I had explained why I suggested pvturist instead yesterday, but here's the detailed combination of reasons and thought processes:

-The reasons I listed in my scum case for him still applied; his pushes were based on fairly shallow reasoning (I thought it was absurd to insist that I had only fluff posted or focus on the fact that I had fluff posted, when I had contributed a ton to the game state, even if indirectly). I dunked scum in my first game on here by dissecting their grasping-at-straws scum case on me and concluding it couldn't possibly be sincere/real scum hunting
-The real-time interaction was very towny because most new players would crumble under the pressure, but I didn't feel like the content of the rebuttals were substantial enough to be town content. It felt like a lot of "no u" and just defensiveness, instead of showing thought processes. I was wavering on my scum read of vivit because I was still wavering on the scum read of pvturist and therefore didn't find it entirely absurd when vivit latched onto that part. In hindsight, the way vivit tried to explain not accounting for my change of heart by saying at first that they didn't read it, and then later that they read it but didn't want to account for it because their post was already too long, was practically scum claiming.
-There were 4 active players in the thread and 5 votes were needed to lynch. Besides Vivit and PvtUrist, every other wagon with 1 vote on it was one of the 4 players whose votes would have to move; presumably, none were about to self hammer, so it was the only possible place to divert

[Nauci]

Anyway, I'm incredibly shaken about my mafia skill right now and uncomfortable with the amount of town pull I had yesterday for reasons that are still unclear to me for the first half of the day

so I'm going to let others dictate the content pace a bit for today

[Nauci]

I will continue to explain why I believe Nauci to be scum. First I'll explain my town reads;

I thought that this meant you were going to follow up with a wall post on the reasons you think I'm scummy

but did you mean that this POE was your case?

[Nauci]

doesn't the same thing apply to Flavour?

What :thing" are you referring to?

[Nauci]

My repetitive stress injury is getting too rough to go into a lot of detail, but basically, I should have scum read Vivit for behaviors: exceptional self consciousness/over-explaining of actions to the point of self contradiction to try to justify actions done on bad faith is one of the 2 main behaviors of newb scum (with the other being fence sitting on every read, because it's too hard to fake strong reads and they want to leave routes open for future mislynches).

I town read Flavor because it's a choice, not a behavior, to only push a vanity wagon and repeatedly declare town reads on someone who flipped scum. It would be highly against his wincon to be relatively passive except for massive association posts about a newbscum partner. It would be absurd to bank winning 7v1on this sort of WIFOM: and it definitely would have been banking on it, because these 2 hard defense posts were right after I put Vivit at -1.

Also, Vivit all game has been providing a lot of content, and looks to be trying to solve this game. Vivit is incredibly townie to me.

I don’t understand how someone can look at Vivit’s ISO and go, “oh yeah, that looks like the best lynch for Day 1.”

Vivit has so much, and it doesn’t even look like fluff.

I don’t see scum posting like Vivit has been here. Someone’s taking advantage of it. Roster and Pvurist. This wagon has done enough to make me lose my town read on Pvurist.

[Nauci]

That he *should* scum-read Vivit.

What I have repeatedly learned in this game is: town can and frequently are wrong. Dead wrong. I was wrong enough on Vivit at the time that I pondered pivoting the wagon.

But scum play with an agenda.

[Nauci]

What would people think about actually mass claiming?

No thanks

[Nauci]

Also as I have said, I find it really hard to get any sort of read from your posts for some reason.

Nothing wrong with this

I don't see much TownPosting™ from Flavor

I'm basically town reading him because I don't think scum flavor would be so

apathetic

nonchalant

[Nauci]

vca seems right/townie too, but might be just NAI as it's mechanics stuff?

VCA =/= mechanics

[Nauci]

This is a good batch we have right here

Happy holidays everybody

I'm baking cookies and cooking the rest of the day

But not before doing this VOTE: FLAVOR LEAF

VOTE: Flavor Leaf

Wait really is this honestly the last vote Komodo cast this game

[Nauci]

What would people think about actually mass claiming?

No thanks

Yeah, I don’t want to that anymore, but I do dislike the anti-mass claim mind set. I’ve solved many games throughout the years from early mass claims.

I got a whole large game in Day 2 to mass claim once.

But yeah, I don’t think mass claim is best here anymore.

I'm not against them on principle

[Nauci]

I don't see much TownPosting™ from Flavor

Actually, that might be a reason to town read me in itself.

That's literally what the rest of that post said

[Nauci]

I'll wait until he actually comes in and posts today before I make any decisions

Plus I'm excited to see Pvt's scum case of me

[Nauci]

I don't think I can remember the last time I was scum cased by non-scum

[Nauci]

But the wagon analysis is just so right. I mean it's the first time he's put in any effort this game, but this is good effort.

Also, I didn’t really have anything to offer Day 1. I wasn’t sure with my reads, and I was kind of just absorbing everything. Once we got some flips, I was ready to go.

I used to play like this, and it worked out well

But I'm trying out Shoshin-Style and doing zany things on Day 1 because otherwise it's just rhetoric all the way down; only genuine reactions to unexpected stuff creates sortable content, I'm

I frequently make lousy cases on people just to see who becomes eager to hop on, or even the great sin of empty voting

Can't read the tea leaves if no one shook them all out

P.S. yes do see spiderverse

I've seen it twice and Stan Lee makes me cry every time

[Nauci]

Komodo hasn't post in 5 days, 6 hours as of right now

[Nauci]

VOTE: komodo

L-1

[Nauci]

Lmao I didn't recognize my own new avatar so I thought that someone else accidentally hammered, thinking it was -1

Derp

Turns out there have been only 2 new posts since my 16 hour nap

[Nauci]

Now that the game is over and I can mention it:

The reason I town read pvturist here is because I had just seen scum!Pvt get flipped here after replacing into both of these games around the same time:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=78126&start=500

If you ISO PvtUrist there, his scum game was highly obvious fence sitting/hand-wringing/worrying about what people thought and therefore trying to justify his play.

While I obviously disagree with him here, his play is like the opposite of those things. But I had doubts about whether it meant he's town here, or that, since he replaced in here just after he was lynched in that game, he learned to never look like he's fence sitting and change his play entirely. Regardless of play style, it didn't seem that he held up under scrutiny there versus here, which is why I had changed my read after the 1v1.

[Nauci]

I'll wait until he actually comes in and posts today before I make any decisions

VOTE: komodo

L-1

@Nauci; a little meta thing that you don't need to respond to here. If you aren't vt, then what are you?

I'll save the juicy stuff for until komodo/his replacement chimes in. Until then expect no hammer from me.

If you're referring to what I said post game in the other one, I specifically did not include this game because it is unfinished (my phrasing was "first game I finished").

[Nauci]

UNVOTE:

I'll wait until he actually has time to post, now that he's said

something

in thread.

[Nauci]

Apparently I play drastically different on each of my accounts, though.

Every time you say this

I imagine that one day we'll unmask Not_Mafia, scooby doo style, and it'll just be you underneath

[Nauci]

Nikk, do you have other thoughts on the game?

If Komodo isn't scum, who would your read pivot to?

Can you state why you scum read komodo?

[Nauci]

Komoooooooodoooooooo

where aaarre yoooouuuu

[Nauci]

And I’m so sorry

what

[Nauci]

I'm going to vote Komodo tonight if he doesn't turn up because the game has ground to a halt

[Nauci]

Komoooooooodoooooooo

where aaarre yoooouuuu

And I’m so sorry

I cannot sleep. I cannot dream tonight.

I need somebody and always

This sick strange darkness

[Nauci]

I'll save the juicy stuff for until komodo/his replacement chimes in.

VOTE: FL I'm convinced.

Does this mean that you won't be posting the scum case of me after all? I was so looking forward to it.

[Nauci]

Oh lol bc as I was writing it I was at my parents house for the holidays and realized I was about to be late to catch the bus back to my city which is like a 4 hour drive and I knew I wouldn't have the energy to post. That's why the last 5 people ended up just being reads with no reasonings. I knew that if I waited until after the bus I wouldn't feel like finishing it up until the next day. Kinda slipped my mind after writing it though.

I read this section as the exact same sort of over-explanation that Vivit was doing, tbh

[Nauci]

Yeah, I don't like vote hopping that much.

There's vote-hopping, and then there's never voting again after hopping onto a vote I made in a joke post.

The latter is a pretty good indicator of not being able to fake scum-hunting. In combination with the fact that you said you strongly scum read there without even thinking to move your vote, it seems like you weren't sincere about your read.

[Nauci]

Nah, I thought that about the next section.

I thought that as well.

It was so odd to me for him to say he was about to post a ton, and then spend half of that "ton" digging into scum POV.

It also wasn't really a ton.

[Nauci]

I mean, you could interpret what he's saying as "I play differently in newbie games than I do in other games", but that answer was in response to "Show me other newbie games you do". He literally contradicted himself in the span of 8 posts. I don't trust this kind of posting, and now that I think about it, his wagon should have been pushed harder. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I feel like you'd have to ignore an awful lot of context, including many of my posts, to represent what Flavor said this way.

I literally said that he had a game where he fake claimed masons with a scum player (in a game I had just finished modding not long ago)... which is NOT normal or straightforward. Boon/FL outside of newbie queue is like the wild wild west of Mafiascummers. Since his response was directly addressed to me, it made sense because of my meta knowledge of him.

The day 2 conversation was all about why Flavor Leaf is town: because he

could

have done a lot better if he were scum, instead of being laid back and letting his scum partner eat rope while just casually tossing out town reads on her to the last page. If he was scum, he could have very easily motivated town to switch to a different wagon here.

In addition, I find it strange how you haven't commented at all on associations with the Vivit flip: how has it influenced your read of Salamander/Nikk, or Jim/PvtUrist?

[Nauci]

Intent to hammer between now and when I have jury duty tomorrow morning

[Nauci]

Xwing is town because scumxwing could have just went on my wagon, and then that would further a TvT Komodo/FL double mislynch path.

Pvurist is the only one who can be scum at this point if Komodo isn’t, tbh.

Eh

The way it was left kinda open keeps him in the 5% what if Komodo isn't scum pool for me

[Nauci]

Because of his content or the counter associations?

[Nauci]

Is it hammer time

[Nauci]

Well played, everyone!

[Nauci]

I thought about that being a thing, but at the same time, I wanted to believe you actually had that strong a town read on me.

I did, but since there was

some

wifom element to it, and the flip ruled out everyone else but komodo, I checked to be sure.

[Nauci]

noo I did another TvT tunnel

thought xwing crumbed cop because;

wont be giving you a townread yet, but that made a lot of sense..thanks..

Haha no worries

the conviction to which you held the read made it easier to town read you

but I do stand by my assessment that much of your scum reading was based on very shallow content.

Try to analyze what people say that focuses more on the meaning and narrative of their posts: do their pushes have depth and genuine thought? Do their reactions make sense from a town POV? Would it be advantageous for them to push X over Y, and do they have genuine conviction in their scum reads?

It takes most people on the site a long time to sort between town and scum except for players who are super obvious and make giant town wallposts (a la dongempire the other game), but if you analyze based on narrative and POV, it'll be easier to evaluate even the less serious or less vociferous players.

[Nauci]

It takes most people on the site a long time to sort between town and scum except for players who are super obvious and make giant town wallposts (a la dongempire the other game), but if you analyze based on narrative and POV, it'll be easier to evaluate even the less serious or less vociferous players.

this is interesting--i usually have a difficult time sorting people who write short posts..what do you mean by narrative and POV? i mean could you go more in depth, if you have time, please?

Well, as an example just in this game, Nikk's posts weren't quite town wall posts, but it was obvious that situationally, he wasn't scum.

But usually, the motives behind what people post is telling. Even if they don't say a lot, what they do say can show if they're clueless town trying to figure things out, or have some sort of agenda with who they're pushing/voting vs ignoring

This doesn't apply to players like Not Mafia who I will never understand

But it helped me with players like Creature