Prey Mafia - Game Over

[Persivul]

LOL

[Persivul]

VOTE: Enter

[Persivul]

A50 hasn't claimed yet, so he's probably 3P.

[Persivul]

Does A50 usually claim early?

Yeah, he likes to play games with fake claims. I believe he does so as both town and scum, so I'm calling him 3P for not doing it yet.

Also don't understand the Enter wagon at all.

I thought he was a newbie being too tryhardy. BUT, I'm in a hood with him (also Papa and Fish) and from interactions there I don't think that's valid.

[Persivul]

Why does everyone that builds a case, no matter how big or small, have to place a vote?

It helps later with VCA.

[Persivul]

@Percy:

I haven't played enough recently

Does this phrasing tell you he's a newbie or an old player with a new alt?

It came up in the hood. It's an alt. He's tr1ckster, aka extrapolated eagle. I saw that he replaced into a newbie slot in a newbie game, but that's allowed if no real newbie replacements are available.

[Persivul]

OK, so your voting him because he's NOT a newbie? In other words, you would have given him some slack had he been a newbie, but you're not accepting his play as an experienced player?

The experience came up after the vote, as already explained in 81. My vote's on him at this point mostly because I just haven't changed it yet.

[Persivul]

To people not taking this seriously, please put me back at L-1.

Yes people, put him back there. The histrionics have become annoying.

[Persivul]

I rescind my intent.

Big surprise.

[Persivul]

I can render myself voteless for the day, yeah.
When I was discussing my PM with the mod, I said I wanted to do it for D1 but since I never sent the action in specifically, he hadn't counted it and now it's been retroactively applied.

Why would you want to be voteless?

[Persivul]

Having a vote is a huge responsibility man
I wanna see how much I can do without a vote.

Why do you wanna know?

I didn't see the point in voluntarily giving up power. After I posted it, I realized it probably triggers some other power, so if you're going to go voteless a day, D1 makes the most sense.

[Persivul]

Anyway, it did get people to react as if I had put an RVS flash-wagon at L-1 so it worked as (sort of) a reaction test. Dunno what that says about Chara and Enter, though.

UNVOTE:
you're right, that does explain things.

No it doesn't. It's not worth giving up your vote for the whole day just to get a reaction test a few pages into D1.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Fish
this is more fun, actually. for 48 and the next three posts in his ISO.

What do you think of 50?

That post is IMO the key to the interaction, but I have additional insight from the hood.

[Persivul]

Why would you be worried about a co-ordinated in-PT push that was fabricated solely for reactions?

Where does Fish look worried?

[Persivul]

If you were in the hood, you'd read that as fish kinda mocking enter, not fish worried about enter. I noted in hood that 66 shows that fish isn't worried about enter. You'd get it if you were in there. Enter's all like

I'm getting people riled up and they don't know how to react

, and we're like

No, that's not really happening

.

[Persivul]

As the neighborhood seems to serve little purpose, I suggest we simply don't use it so that there's no confusion about what's being said where.

That's fine by me. This he said/she said is a pain.

[Persivul]

VOTE: minhyuk

[Persivul]

i'm assuming you find Enter scummy for it? it looks overeager, but i don't see the scumminess.

No, the point is that I think it explains fish's posts to an extent. Enter's coming on like a bsd, and fish isn't having any of it.

In general scum don't start out like enter has, hence my change in vote. BUT, a bsd (or wannabe ) might, so I need to check his scum meta when I have time.

[Persivul]

Big swinging dick - someone very (perhaps overly) confident in their abilities and not shy about it.

If you watched Breaking Bad, the guy whose car Walt set on fire at the gas station was a bsd.

[Persivul]

sorry, who is this?

That's my title. I earned it in a kingmaker game.

[Persivul]

alright skitter is town probably. I agree with like all of the sentiment in her posts in the past couple pages. I am curious what she sees in redtea.

I could go for a flashwagon on a50.

[Emphasis added] None of his posts yet have really made me feel anything at all.

All of the speculation about how many scum are in the neighborhood is dumb.

alright skitter is town probably. I agree with like all of the sentiment in her posts in the past couple pages. I am curious what she sees in redtea.

I could go for a flashwagon on a50. None of his posts yet have really made me feel anything at all.

All of the speculation about how many scum are in the neighborhood is dumb.

redtea's posts kinda feel like they're equivocating without actually saying much. or kinda like they're talking to talk? idk might be a playstle thing but like look at the number of words they're using to say ... not much at all really, or to cite someone else's opinion as a reason to think something

or like they'll ask questions and then do nothing with the answer

What are Almost50 and Robert's thoughts so far? Other than passive commentary and band talk.

and i'm pushing a50 and papa zito is trying to wagon robert but there's like no interaction with these pushes really; makes me feel like the questions are there to look busy

i could flashwagon a50, sure

VOTE: a50

==

lynching someone based on whether or not they're in a hood is dumb, no offense

VOTE: a50

Implosion's like,

I could go for a wagon on A50...but only if someone else votes him first.

[Persivul]

actually no, i'm a fool.
VOTE: minyu
he's still voting skitter and liked my explanation.

Nice to finally get some company, but he's prolly gonna be replaced. It's been almost 3 days.

VOTE: Robert

[Persivul]

So I take you haven't read the thread, BEF?
What could I do to convince you to read it and give reads?
Would you do it for a BEFFY snack?
How'about TWO BEFFY snacks?

What's worse - him not knowing you don't have a vote...or you actually not having a vote?

[Persivul]

A50, why do you have a vote parked on skitter?

[Persivul]

According to my own personal stats elbrin is scum for being the 3rd person on the redtea wagon and I TR redtea, so...

VOTE: Elbrin

Just reading in real time I was getting the feeling that fish was lynchbait. Reading ISOs I'm not so sure.

Fish, how do you vote elbirn without making any comment on 409 (his most substantial post)? I get that he didn't look good at first (just goofing around) but that reads list was pretty good - lined up fairly well with my own thoughts, didn't look like the obligatory reads list from panicked replacement into scum slot. I was particularly impressed that he put me (and A50) into a "feel nothing" category, as I know that I've been neglecting this game and needed to get back into it. He could easily have justified putting one or both of us as scum leans for lack of activity, but didn't. It reads like an honest assessment.

So...what about 409 don't you agree with?

[Persivul]

Not sure what the hesitation is on Robert. Read his ISO. It stinks. If you're too lazy to bother:

13 34 - RVS stage stuff, doesn't vote. Personally I generally don't read much into the first couple pages.
152 - over a day later he comes in, NOW just posts a RVS vote (he specified it's random). That reads as scum trying to milk mileage out of RVS because he's not sure what to do otherwise.
172 196 - band talk
308 - 2-1/2 days later, comes in with a prodge, by asking what a prodge is
312 - butts in to another conversation to appear engaged
364 - VLA announcement
378 - "This game is confusing. Unvote"
459 and following - Puts a policy vote on mcqueen for placing a naked vote, defends that policy
576 - "So why is there a wagon on RedTea after I'm no long on him....?" His vote on redtea was explained as random back in 152
577 - fluff with the mod
581 - non sequitur response to zito that goes nowhere
591 - "Soulread?"
668 - this is his one post that's more than a couple of lines. Now, mcqueen goes from a policy vote to a scum read, and he throws out a bunch of weak reads with no reasoning.

It isn't rocket surgery. He's doing nothing to scum hunt and advance the game. You can say that he's not actively pushing a scum agenda, and I'd agree, but in the absence of someone who IS actively pushing a scum agenda (I haven't seen one, but I'm willing to listen), this is a good lynch.

[Persivul]

Your trying really hard to paint me as scum.

If I were trying to paint you as scum, I wouldn't have said, "he's not actively pushing a scum agenda."

How far will you go to try to continue to twist what I say?

There are no twists. What I said was accurate.

[Persivul]

Compare/contrast to redtea, the other wagon. She has fewer posts, but they actually have content:
124 - questions mcqueen
130 - interaction with mcqueen, pressure on implosion
140 - follow up with implosion, interaction with skitter
And it goes on.

I really don't get why anyone's voting redtea over Robert.

[Persivul]

Something the players should look at is the fact that no one from our PT is voting for redtea right now.

Why? It's not active. They should be on Robert over redtea because Robert's ISO sucks, tea's doesn't suck.

[Persivul]

It isn't rocket surgery.

This is enough for me to have you in my "I don't want to lynch EVER" list.

Thanks, although actually my favorite is,

Why pay for milk when you can screw the cow for free?

[Persivul]

I know Zito wasn't asking me, but Persivul sounds like he's trying to lead people along, and using the pressing deadline to obfuscate the sudden push.
Would rather lynch him, actually. Decent SR on him anyway. This doesn't have to do with any read on Robert, for the record. This could easily be a bus.
VOTE: Persivul
More pending

I could see you being sus of me defending the person who's L-3 and pushing the L-4 if you thought the L-3 and I were both scum. But

you're

the L-3 . There's no scum motivation for me to defend you at this point.

[Persivul]

VOTE: redtea

[Persivul]

5 hours 40 minutes. Just sayin'...

[Persivul]

i mean i'll switch back (which will make it 5:4 towards redtea) but i don't think there are two more votes for redtea rn

You switch back, that will make it L-1 for redtea. Surely someone will hammer before deadline.

[Persivul]

Enter, there's really not much time for wink-wink nudge-nudge.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Robert

[Persivul]

Share your info or shut up about it.

He's said enough. Something more specific won't help anyway as it's a closed setup. Vote Robert, there's not time to do anything else.

[Persivul]

Me, PZ and Persivul are the only ones left in the hood, which seems to be locked now.

VOTE: Persivul

Oh, I forgot context.

Enter claimed lovers with Redtea in our hood PT. That's why I think scum choose one of them for the NK.

We had night talk.

I didn't even check the hood thread until now, as it had been pretty dead for days.

You forgot a little bit of the "context." You didn't tell people that there were 2 pages of back and forth between you and Enter last night (Zito had a few posts, redtea came in toward the end); Enter only claimed out of frustration with that conversation; and Enter still thought you were scum and said he was going to push you today.

[Persivul]

I see that, but do this real quick.

Do a quick ISO of Persivul and while reading it just assume he is scum. It will make sense.

Do a quick ISO of Persivul and while reading it just assume he's a town PR laying somewhat low to avoid the NK. That will make sense too.

[Persivul]

@Percy/BEF/Zito: Did Enter also claim his Commute shot in the PT?

He said he had some means of protecting himself but didn't get specific.

[Persivul]

i sort of like the subtle accusation of Fish here, like you're saying he's scum who was hoping that somehow Zito and yourself would just not mention that he was fighting with Enter, and kept it secret on purpose to avoid looking bad.

Where do you get subtle? I thought that point was pretty blatant. The reason I'm not pushing Fish harder is because he also said in PT that he can conftown himself today after a couple of unnamed people post. I'm giving him time for that. Wouldn't you?

[Persivul]

did Fish claim that publicly?

He claimed it in the hood, where at least four other people could see it.

why did you out it? (if not.)

Because you were casting shade at me for being open about what happened in the hood, and that piece of info explains why I gave info which could be damaging to Fish, yet didn't vote him.

Do you have a problem with me being transparent about what happened in the hood? If so, why?

[Persivul]

What bothers me is that BEF thinks there is scum in the hood but worries about his soft-claim being outted to town outside the hood.
Doesn't make sense.

Exactly.

And, Chara implying that I'm scummy for accurately reporting what went on in the hood.

[Persivul]

do you think there's scum in the hood?

Assuming a standard 10:3 setup, and assuming no unknown neighbors, then probably 1 in the hood, 2 out. That means 1/3 and 2/7 in and out of the hood respectively.

i mean there probably is, and scum knows about it already probably, so i can see why you think you aren't outing anything new but
it's a little ??? to claim something sombody else said in private in the main thread

Not at all. First, as you note above, it's highly likely that there's scum in the hood. Second, you, like Chara, are locktowning BEF from his D1 play. I had him as a town lean as well, and even defended him: 237 239. But, unlike you guys, I'm taking in new evidence with an open mind.

Consider if Fish is scum:
- fights with enter
- enter claims lovers
- enter says he's pushing fish tomorrow
- fish decides to kill enter, both to get the twofer and to avoid the push
- fish claims he can conftown himself tomorrow as cover
- enter and redtea die
- fish says that people are scummy for divulging his PT conftown claim

Sorry, but I'm not giving him a pass on all that just because he seemed townie for most of D1.

like i'm kinda thinking that if i were in bef's position i wouldn't want somebody to say what i claimed in the hood in the main thread on the offchance there *weren't* scum in the hood, even if it was likely that there *are* scum there

That's because you locktowned fish from D1 play. I haven't. Things change.

[Persivul]

If hood really doesn't have a userlist though, I bet dollars to donuts that scum just didn't post there, but in that case, I wonder why the N1 kill wasn't on someone in the hood.

Huh? We're only in D2. Last night was N1, and the kill was on someone in the hood.

[Persivul]

i just don't really see him as scum. i'm not locktowning him but i don't understand why the conftown-claim-in-hood thing incriminates him either?

- fish claims he can conftown himself tomorrow as cover

as cover for what?
like i don't really see why he, as scum, does this bit here?

Seems obvious to me. Enter said he was going to push fish hard. Enter dies. That makes fish the prime suspect. Fish says he can conftown himself - that gives him cover for the kill, because he wouldn't be afraid of Enter pushing him if he really can conftown himself.

So, I want to see if he can. If so, fine. If not, that looks like a scum fakeclaim that wasn't thought through far enough.

p-edit: cool, someone gets it.

[Persivul]

What's the

town

motivation for claiming you can conftown yourself - at night, when you're in no danger of being lynched?

If there's scum in the hood, why didn't they kill

that

last night, and save redtea/enter for N2? That would have triggered a surprise D3 mylo.

[Persivul]

and Persivul: i'm not locktowning Fish. i'm townreading him. it's easy to "consider if he's scum" and then talk about what he's done if scum.
consider that he's town and had a TvT fight. and consider that he was fighting with Enter, in a PT that has enough people in it to be considered public. would you think this was scummy if he'd been fighting with Enter in the main thread as much as the PT?

Fish does need to out what he's talking about, though.

if it's bullshit, don't pretend it isn't bullshit. and you didn't answer why you claimed it in the hood you think contains scum, Fish.

And that's all I'm asking. As I've said, I'm giving him time to prove himself. I don't see why you have a problem with that.

Guess what - yes, it looks bad for fish that he got enter to claim, enter said he'd push fish today, and enter ended up dead. You are indeed locktowning him if you can't admit such a plain fact.

[Persivul]

I used my day action on my top TR and it was unsuccessful.

I'm struggling to come up with a role that you would target on your top TR.

[Persivul]

I used my day action on my top TR and it was unsuccessful.

I'm struggling to come up with a role that you would target on your top TR.

Cop

No one uses a day cop D1 on their top town read.

Doctor
Bodyguard

He said he was told his action was unsuccessful. You don't get notification from mod if a protective action is blocked. It just doesn't work.

Neighborizer

On top of a neighborhood that already has at least 5 people in it - and he's already one of them?

I don't see how this is a struggle.

You're not reading and thinking it through.

[Persivul]

Alright then, round 2.
Friendly Neighbor
Inventor
Double-vote Enabler

Mod doesn't tell you the action was unsuccessful on these.

Why are you bending over backward to make bad defenses of his claim?

This is getting ridiculous.

VOTE: BEF

[Persivul]

I give failures to players on refunded shots of limited shot abilities.
/shrug.

Fair enough, but I still don't get why you're doing his defending for him. If he's scum caught in a lie, you just gave him an out.

[Persivul]

By the same right, though, scum can just hold off on voting for any town player because they will be implicated by the flip so they'd look way better if it was all town mislynching and, more likely, town just can't get a lynch.
So I really don't like people who have pretty much ghosted and haven't been using their vote. Willingness to vote reads more likely town than scum to me, except if those votes are on scum that's inevitably going to get lynched, ie: a bus.

Says the guy who gave up his vote.

It'll be really obvious why I can't vote once I do get my vote back.

I can explain it...later.

It's another fish.

[Persivul]

VOTE: Persivul
that's l-1.

I see that, but do this real quick.

Do a quick ISO of Persivul and while reading it just assume he is scum. It will make sense.

Do a quick ISO of Persivul and while reading it just assume he's a town PR laying somewhat low to avoid the NK. That will make sense too.

[Persivul]

the best argument against Persivul scum i can come up with is that he seems to have no defenders here aside from Elbirn, who i townread if he's scum.

Yep. The scenario being pushed is that scum took a risk in killing the lovers, knowing it would focus attention on the hood, but had no plan for day and left their buddy hanging.

[Persivul]

like, most of his posts on the whole feel still very unreadable to me. But his reaction to the wagon pressure is really weak.

That's how I usually play town PR. I play VT or scum much more actively, and as scum I go balls out on defense. I recently forgot to tone down as TPR in this game where I was cop, and I got killed N1 for it and town lost. I was trying to avoid that here.

[Persivul]

I'm a Phantom Cop. Each night I can learn whether someone is a Typhon Phantom. From discussions with mod I think that scum are all Typhons, but not all are specifically Phantoms. He wasn't perfectly clear. I asked straight out if I'm a Goon Cop but he wouldn't confirm. I targeted A50 last night but got a No Result.

[Persivul]

I'll bite, how do you get no result?

Not sure what you mean. It's nothing with my role. I get Typhon Phantom, Not a Typhon Phantom, or No Result, like a typical cop. Either I was blocked or it's something with A50.

[Persivul]

Why didn't you target BEF on N1?

Because I mostly town read him D1.

[Persivul]

Persivul you didn't soft anything on Day 1 did you?

No. I don't soft without good reason. In my first game here, the scum IC (goodmorning) softed more than one role, so I don't see the point. It doesn't prove anything, but good scum will spot it and kill you.

[Persivul]

i think scum votes on this wagon most-to-least likely is:

mcqueen > implosion > a50 > chara > bef

so i'm going to start here

VOTE: mcqueen

FWIW I investigated mcqueen last night and got NOT a phantom.

Has anyone played this game? Is phantom a big thing or a minor thing?

[Persivul]

no, i'm glad you came back. it's really annoying dealing with your lack of vote. now we finally have a margin for error on today's wagon.

You're that sure that he's town?

[Persivul]

Persivul, what are your reads like now?

Elbirn town based on posts and votes.

You and skitter likely town based on posts. Two caveats: A50 made some scum speculation based on playing with you. He didn't press it much, and I don't trust that he's town, but it stuck in the back of my mind.

Varsoon is a special case. Based on his posting I would have him as scum, but he proved that he was able to make himself voteless, and if I were scum, that's not something I'd want to do. BUT, he might do it as scum if he was really confident that his buddies weren't going to be in danger (that's my second caveat on you/skitter).

BEF - still scum. I don't buy the too dumb to be scum argument. I've been scum with people that did really stupid things without asking about it. It happens. His claimed role would be negative utility for town, and you already claimed a negative utility role. That doesn't fit with common sense or especially with current site meta. Unfortunately he seems to be unlynchable.

mcqueen, implosion, A50 - what I'm working on. I can never read A50, but at least I have some idea of what he's said. mcqueen and implosion have left no real mark. It's generally a red flag when someone's been posting but is still a null by D3. That's why I targeted mcqueen last night.

[Persivul]

BEF
You asked why else there'd be no NK other than fishing that a protective role might have been on you
Despite my claim existing
And here you are
STILL trying to get town protectives/anti-kill roles outted
VOTE: BEF
I just can't

Yabut chara and skitter have feelz, so it doesn't matter what fish does.

[Persivul]

I'm thinking I was probably a strong option for a NK

So you think I'm town?

[Persivul]

How did you come to that conclusion from that quote?

With the attention that's been given to the hood, scum!pers wouldn't want to kill the only other known member of the hood, thereby putting himself at risk. That's why yesterday you came out of the gate gunning for me, then were willing to switch to zito...but now I'm not a priority.

[Persivul]

How is BEF's role a -ve utility for Town?

It's not a regular motivator. It gives multitasking, which is generally a scum trait.

[Persivul]

How did you come to that conclusion from that quote?

With the attention that's been given to the hood, scum!pers wouldn't want to kill the only other known member of the hood, thereby putting himself at risk. That's why yesterday you came out of the gate gunning for me, then were willing to switch to zito...but now I'm not a priority.

I switched to PZ with just a few hours left to deadline it had nothing to do with you or the hood.

Wrong. Yesterday you came out gunning for me, with zito also in your pool, specifically because of the hood and the kill on Enter:

Scum is in our neighborhood.

Me, PZ and Persivul are the only ones left in the hood, which seems to be locked now.

VOTE: Persivul

And the reason I decided to vote Persivul over PZ was due to Persivul's spot/vote on Robert.

You've given no reason why your assessment of scum in the hood has changed. With known hood members down from 3 to 2, you should be

more

convinced that I'm scum. Yet, today you said I'm not a "top lynch candidate." The logical explanation for that is that you're scum, but you think that if you lynch me today, that means you're the default lynch for tomorrow.

VOTE: Fish

[Persivul]

i really hate massclaim normally, but more and more i'm thinking about advocating for it given the claims we already have and that if we wait until LyLo, massclaim will be completely useless.

i don't think implosion using that cop shot (which i'm sure he got because skitter can verify it) in the way he did is AI, but it's good to know.

Or we could just lynch Fish.

[Persivul]

I have no idea why you asked me question 2 above if you're asking me this, because you should have known the answer. I literally assumed you weren't the person who gave me the shot because you asked me that question. If you are and things are gonna be this way, let's just be nice and unambiguous.

I received, and used, a cop shot.

I was trying to soft an investigative role, but you've kind of ruined the ability to do that now.

I have an innocent result on a50, which I thought would be obvious to whoever gave me the cop shot by the fact that he was suddenly at the top of my reads list despite me constantly calling him null earlier.

If you received a single shot, what's with the soft claim? Why not just put out the result immediately?

[Persivul]

@skitter: I think implosion is correct. Persivul looks like the scum in the hood now. Here's why:

1- Someone did pick on the Lovers thing and got 2 kills for the price of 1 on N1.
2- Percy is persistent on lynching a TPR (BEF) and ignoring all arguments that he is

mechanically confirmed

1. No, he's not mechanically confirmed of anything.
2. If I'm scum and Fish is town, killing fish would make me top suspect tomorrow. If this were mylo/lylo, I could understand your suspicion, but it isn't. Hood scum's motivation now that it's down to two is to take the focus off the hood, and that's exactly what Fish is trying to do.

3- (and this is the last nail in the coffin) I don't believe Persy would check me on N1 and mcqueen on N2 when he's all gang ho about BEF's lynch. What Cop wouldn't try to check his main suspect who had claimed a TPR and is being defended by half the Town, yet still practically tunnel them?

1. Investigations are primarily for hard nulls and lurkers. Unfortunately you're correct that it's site meta to use them on people who are overtly scummy. I don't subscribe to that. Those people can be pushed without a guilty.

2. Maybe you don't recall, but D1 I was defending Fish. Yesterday I voted him but that was partially OMGUS. It's his behavior so far today that has me gung ho on him. There's no reason beside him being scum for him to change his mind about scum in the hood, now that we're down to two known from the hood. Look at his excuse for the change - "lynching from the hood as been a town massacre." What does that mean - we've only lynched one person from the hood.

[Persivul]

i also strongly believe that fish's role is +town utility.

And yet he hasn't actually used it.

[Persivul]

Where was he asked to claim first?

WTF, he quoted it in the very post in which he claimed. RTFT.

[Persivul]

Nothing to add to my claim.

[Persivul]

Chara proposed a sequence, then skitter requested an amendment and it was accepted. We go in this order:

mcqueen
implosion
Varsoon
Fish
Persivul
Elbirn
Almost50
Chara
skitter

Now if you wish to go before implosion I -personally- have no problem with that, just to speed up the process. I don't want to spend the next 48-72 hours stuck at this.

Your turn A50.

[Persivul]

Almost claimed ... of course it was fake.

Simplified it for you.

[Persivul]

Percy got a no result on you

Which still isn't explained.

[Persivul]

I’m gonna sound retarded but I didn’t see contradictions.

Yes, you do, but I'm pretty sure that's not appropriate language on this site.

[Persivul]

1. I targeted BEF and got not a phantom.

2. I had no problem with a chara/skitter town bloc, but then yesterday A50 somehow wormed himself into it. They decide we're having mass claim, but when it gets to A50's turn, they decide we no longer need to mass claim. I've never seen that happen before. I need to go back and see who first said that the bloc didn't need to claim. I was going to raise this point yesterday, but...

3. That lynch happened unusually fast.

[Persivul]

@skitter: If you see this before you do, please do NOT claim.

I just LOVE to mess with scum's thoughts.

@skitter: If you see this before you do, please do NOT claim.

I just LOVE to mess with scum's thoughts.

you think i oughtn't claim?

(i'm like three pages behind still but i'm keeping vague tabs on this page)

[Persivul]

2. who on earth comes up with a day-motivating-neighborizer claim as scum and then *puts themselves in a position to fuck up using it and make themselves look bad* by not being able to verify it when he could have claimed like anything else on the planet, like vt or something

Can you clarify your position on this? It seems like you're saying that the role makes no sense as a fake claim...yet does make sense as a real town role. Mod gave fakeclaims. If a role makes sense to you as real for town, then it should also make sense as a mod-supplied fake claim for scum. That's the point of mod fake claims.

[Persivul]

if bef was scum why did the wagon go from him to implosion

Probably because you and chara have the nost town cred and went on implosion:

VC 3.12

[4] BrightEyedFish:

Elbirn, Persivul, Almost50, Varsoon

[2] implosion:

Chara, skitter30

[1] Persivul:

implosion

[2] Not Voting:

BrightEyedFish, mcqueen

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

The Day 3 deadline is in

: (expired on 2019-02-21 19:00:00)

Spoiler:

From: Alex Yu
To: Sylvain Bellamy
Cc:
Subject: Morgan's Solutions
Over the past several tests Morgan has used different solutions to the same problem, even though we've been controlling every possible variable. Room A, for example. In Test 9 he/she exercised precise control to move the boxes one at a time. In Test 10 he/she simultaneously levitated them all straight up a few inches, technically completing the test. Then, in 14 he/she incinerated them. If not for the safety glass, you'd be dead.
What is happening after reset that's leading to this variance?
-Alex

If bef is town, why didn't implosion hammer when he had the chance? (TBF I haven't checked to see if imp was online during the L-1 on fish.)

[Persivul]

OK...

I am the FlexyFoam Guy. It is NOT an alignment thing (i.e. I am neither Loyal nor Disloyal). I hit Percy, Elbrin & BEF, and I though Percy was scummy for not claiming it. He said he was Roleblocked, which should not have prevented my shotn from going through (since it's not a kill), AND I couldn't have been RB'd myself.

Why couldn't you have been roleblocked?

[Persivul]

Btw, I'm still hoping this FlexiFoam is more than just a "fruit" I deliver at random, but I wasn't told much about it in my role PM. Based on Varsoon's explanation though I wouldn't be surprised if it paved the way for a Vig to shoot someone and they only die if they have it on them, which is why I want to lynch mcqueen over both Elbrin & BEF anyway.

If mcqueen is scum (and I think he is)

we are good. If he is somehow town, and there's such a Vig, then they know where to shoot already.

You think mcqueen is scum? What changed from:

VOTE: mcqueen
UNVOTE:

OK. IF this wasn't hammer then I'm ready to move on.

You don't give scum a LOVED modifier

, and you don't make a TOWNIE voteless on top of that. Varsoon & mcqueen are definitely the same alignment.(I mean, if mcqueen is indeed loved)

(I mostly agreed with 1839 BTW.)

[Persivul]

yeah the motivation was basically for me then
(or implosion)

i don't believe that's a scum fake-claim

Again - why not? If a role makes sense as provided to town by the mod, it necessarily also makes sense as a fake claim provided to scum by mod. I don't see how you don't get this point.

[Persivul]

I think I believe A50's claim for now. Back to BEF VOTE: BEF

How is fruit vendor AI?

[Persivul]

So you're just assuming Phantom is not goon cop, then, but limited flavor-cop that catches like 1 scum?

I'm assuming that only one scum is a phantom, otherwise I'd have limited shots. I'm not assuming whether that scum has a power or not.

[Persivul]

Alright, so who do you think the remaining scum are?

rn I think BEF is non-phantom scum. Phantom scum is someone I haven't pressured much yet, so that's changing.

You seem to be implying BEF is an implosion partner but I'm not seeing a vote there.

With chara/skitter leading on implo, yes, a bus is possible there. Considering the speed of that wagon it's very possible. Five town coming together that quickly seems unlikely.

Do you think it's probable that implosion just... wasn't around to hammer town-BEF? Or maybe that implosion saw the BEF wagon and didn't hammer because he figured it'd end in him getting turbo-lynched the next day?

Possible, but my read on BEF isn't based on those wagons, it's based on the fact that he wanted my head D2 but then wanted nothing to do with me after the zito lynch.

[Persivul]

Why couldn't you have been roleblocked?

Because you bloody were? Unless you think there are 2 Roleblockers in play!

1. You were speaking of your mindset at D2. I said I got a no result. A no result can be caused by things other than RBs. So, no, you didn't know I was roleblocked at that point.

2. Yes, actually we've had two of them flip already. Multiple RBs (including a JK as an RB as you are) aren't uncommon. You know that.

[Persivul]

Mate.. if I was Roleblocked then you wouldn't have been, and if you haven't been blocked you would get a result on me even if I was RB'd. The fact you didn't get a result on me = YOU were RB'd regardless. What was confusing me was if you were RB'd that doesn't stop MY action from resolving on you. Got it yet?

No, I don't. Why couldn't one of us have been jailed and the other blocked?

[Persivul]

(including a JK as an RB as you are

As I am?

Yes. You say I was blocked N1 when it appears I was jailed.

[Persivul]

Did a search and found:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78019

This game had a "Vengeful Loved Prankster" role.

I was in that game. It was over-the-top bastard. It's not precedent for this game.

Also came across this post by Dino: viewtopic.php?p=10141169#p10141169

The statement clearly suggests nothing wrong in making a goon loved (i.e. scum could have a Loved Modifier).

This is one person saying maybe he'd do it.

Regardless of what you/I think, it seems like some mods feel it's OK to make anti-Town roles Loved.

It seems more like you're reaching far and wide to try to support a read change.

[Persivul]

And what id the effect of the JK on you? Huh? What does that do to your action??

It blocks you. I agree that it makes sense to include JK when discussing RBs. That's not the point. The point is that we've had two RBs flip already, and you act as if that's unheard of. That combination was one setup in Matrix 6, which ran for a long time in the newbies. I find it hard to believe that you immediately assumed I was blocked (I could have targeted an ascetic, commuter, etc) AND that you could NOT have been blocked because two blocking roles are out of the question.

[Persivul]

I could have targeted an ascetic, commuter, etc

You said you targeted ME, and I'm none of this.

I hadn't said that at the beginning of D2, and that's the point in the game we're discussing.

Should I repeat that a few times in larger text?

[Persivul]

You think mcqueen is scum? What changed

Did a search and found:

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=78019

This game had a "Vengeful Loved Prankster" role.

Also came across this post by Dino: viewtopic.php?p=10141169#p10141169

The statement clearly suggests nothing wrong in making a goon loved (i.e. scum could have a Loved Modifier).

Regardless of what you/I think, it seems like some mods feel it's OK to make anti-Town roles Loved.

Can you see how it seems really unlikely that you went out, found these, and changed your read on mcqueen without mentioning your research...
but much more likely that you either forgot about the read or changed it to fit an agenda, then when caught posted these as a (very weak) justification?

[Persivul]

im gonna sound dumb but phantom=scum right?

No, it's my understanding from discussions with mod and what varsoon has said that scum are typhons, with phantom being one type of typhon. Note that implosion flipped Typhon Nightmare.

[Persivul]

bruh so this is multiball??

No, the Nightmare or Phantom add-on is just flavor.

[Persivul]

@ mcqueen:

@Almost50: So there's the Typhon, which is a whole race of mimic monsters that are ostensibly at war with humanity. Phantoms are just a kind of Typhon. They've got different 'types' like Cystoid, Mimic, Moon Shark, Nightmare, Phantom, Poltergeist, Telepath, Technopath, Tentacle Nest, Weaver, and Apex.

As far as I can tell from the flavor of this game of mafia, we're probably all just the humans aboard the spaceship that the game of Prey (2017) takes place on. On the most basic level, the conflicts in the game are between humans and Typhon, but there ARE human enemies that you can fight in the game (and mind-controlled ones, at that) as well as robot enemies that exist. I think the goal of this game of mafia is to depict the surface-level conflict between the humans and the Typhon, though. There's some pretty huge twists later on in the game that kinda make you question who's the good guys or not but based on flips so far I think we can probably just approach this flavor as if it's non-mindfucky for now but don't rule anything out.

So, TL;DR: Typhon are the main bad guys, but robots and humans can be bad too.

[Persivul]

@Percy: Yes.. I am scum. You're absolutely correct, my friend. I am not moving my vote off mcqueen though, so do whatever you please.

OK.
VOTE: Almost50

[Persivul]

Varsoon is a50 the scum that snowed me? Can you dumb down like I'm 5 why he's scum?

Explain his change from reading mcqueen as mechanically cleared town to scum. Do you believe his bullshit about finding a loved scum in a blatantly bastard game named Everything is Still a Lie, and concluding that's reasonable precedent for loved scum? It's utterly ridiculous. That question is to you too, skitter. On the face of it, this is scum thinking he needs more mislynch options down the road, and so setting one up and hoping the complete contradiction goes unnoticed. Tell me what else it is.

[Persivul]

The thing is you're the only one here who knows the flavor well enough to judge, and I claimed my flavor, so -if you were town- you'd know

it's true beyond doubt,

and thus it matches the abilities (unless Xtoxm didn't make it that way).

Mod. Gave. Safeclaims.

You know that. Why are you pretending that a claim with reasonable flavor must necessarily be authentic?

The fact that you overlooked that is reason enough for me to have no doubt about you being scum.

How should we react to the fact that you overlooked safeclaims?

[Persivul]

Hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on hold on
Who was the first person to mention 3P in this game?

Not sure if it was first, but in reading skitter's ISO she responded to a redtea comment about the possibility here:

Spoiler:

Hi my entire neighborhood has not had power at all today and i dont know when i'm getting it back; vla until i get power back

I was about to say "What neighborhood" but then I realized this is not a comment on the neighborhood in this game.

==

@skitter30 because Almost50 has said just about nothing useful the entire game despite having a presence. Maybe he is third party?
Related to that
VOTE: Almost30
Until he decides to respond to me.

not sure why you keep bringing up 3ps
also i don't think that's there's more than one scum in {redtea/a50}

==

actually no, i'm a fool.
VOTE: minyu
he's still voting skitter and liked my explanation.

your last three votes have been on people that, if town, i consider lynchbait

==

actually no, i'm a fool.
VOTE: minyu
he's still voting skitter and liked my explanation.

Why is it bad to leave a vote on someone -even you no longer SR them- when: A) You have not thought of a better wagon to join, and B) the wagon you're on is

@L-5

???

this post feels scummy for a50

[Persivul]

Is this the 1st post about 3p?

No, see my preceding post. redtea speculated that A50 might be 3P pretty far back.

[Persivul]

No, see my preceding post. redtea speculated that A50 might be 3P pretty far back.

In fact, the post you quote references redtea.

[Persivul]

Ok. I just did a quick search and that was the earliest post I got. But I suck with the Ms search function. Is there a wiki page or something like that to help with searches?

I don't know how to search the entire game. I go to ISOs and just use the chrome ctrl+f function.

More importantly, where are you on A50? With his read changes and late vig claim, I'm getting extremely nervous that he's a SK and has skitter pocketed.

[Persivul]

A50 hasn't claimed yet, so he's probably 3P.

Actually I was first to mention it - and on A50. I was largely kidding, but I still want props if I was right.

Also something I remembered now that may or may not have anything to do with the game: redtea hinted there might be a 3P role in-play. I went back to reread his PM (and Enter's) and could find any redacted info, and the phrasing of either doesn't suggest any 3P roles. This is irrelevant in itself, but IF there is a 3P killer then they may have been the one to have shot redtea, and the group scum kill may have been saved (If there's a Doctor/Jailer .. etc, please keep this in mind and use it IF we ever flip a 3P killing role)

This was really weird at the time as there had been no double kills. Now it's still weird - not really sure what to make of it.

[Persivul]

I don't know what I did

You hammered a town PR who was playing scummy af. Me too. Between the change in read on mcqueen and the late night kill claim, I thought for sure he was SK setting up his end game.

[Persivul]

Town to scum:

mcqueen
Elbirn
Varsoon
BEF

Going to bed now, will give the reasons tomorrow.

[Persivul]

Town to scum:

mcqueen
Elbirn
Varsoon
BEF

Going to bed now, will give the reasons tomorrow.

First, I have no result. I'm out of shots. I didn't claim that in order to try to draw the NK away from skitter.

mcqueen - this is based on the role. He actually confirmed he's loved, and I have a hard time thinking that a scum was made loved, particularly in the current meta of designing games assuming that towns suck. Based on his posting, he's not particularly townie or scummy. After a couple days that's scummy in itself, which is why I checked him. But I really can't get past the Loved. That's like 99% town.

Elbirn - based on shared reads, and particularly that he's the only player to be consistently on BEF, and didn't abandon that after the zito lynch - see below.

Varsoon - his posting is bizarre. It's frequently like he's not even reading the game or is confusing games. I don't find that scummy per se, but after mcqueen and elbirn, POE makes him scum. He was on the implosion lynch, but was on it early - looks like scum who was distancing, then the wagon moved too fast for him to get off.

BEF - Scum. After the redtea/enter kill, he was sure there was scum in the hood, and came out gunning for me. Zito was lynched. Next day, he should have been even more sure that I was scum, as we were the only two left in the hood. But, he said he had no interest in lynching me. This makes absolutely no sense if he's town. If he's scum, it makes a lot of sense, because once he's the last hood alive, he knows he's an auto lynch. Since I've been pushing that angle, he knows he can't reverse himself and go back to pushing me today, so he's using skitter's read on me as an excuse. Also he was the last person on the implosion lynch, which looks like a bus.

Does anyone really believe that mod made a 5 person hood that was all town?

[Persivul]

Dollars to donuts, BEF is scum here. I really don't like how he's like "Skitter was prob right" and then Percivul pegs him as scum and he's like "I can take away that townread on you!"

Damn, you're making this difficult. I saw that too, but didn't mention it to see if anyone else would.

[Persivul]

As sure as I am that you're scum, you should take that vote down until there's a consensus.

[Persivul]

Meh, maybe you're right.

VOTE: Elbirn

[Persivul]

Woot!

Good setup, great modding, timely with VCs and opening/closing phases.

[Persivul]

Memories of this game are already mercifully fading fast.

Yeah you got screwed when I made that fake claim. I was just amazed at the traction I got out of that, and that town then just said

heck with it

regarding the hood.

[Persivul]

Thanks guys!
I really enjoyed enjoyed modding it.
The players were great too - I think I only issued 3 prods all game, and 1 replacement.
Couldn't have gone better. ^^
I appreciate all the feedback too, which has been almost entirely positive so far.

Here are the PTs:
Coral Neural Network
Fatal Fortress
Missing Persons
Mod PT

I don't have access to Missing Persons.

[Persivul]

Yes thanks!

[Persivul]

Persivul, congrats on being the scummiest town player who was indeed scum.

Thanks. I usually play scum better than that but I had too many games and too much work going when this one started. BUT, I can take credit for claiming goon cop. I don't get why that saved me given that mod stated he had supplied safe claims. In general I don't get why there was so much setup spec in a closed game with known safe claims.

Also don't get why town abandoned the hood as a thing after killing zito. A 5 person hood has to have scum in it. That meant me and you were 50/50.

The funnest part of course though was lynching A50. IMO lies in general do a lot more for scum than they do for town.

[Persivul]

At this point I think it's probably better that we Lynch anti-town play than allow it to live just because we townread it. Letting play like BEF's in this game survive to lylo because we decided he might not be scum and voted elsewhere lost us the game in the long run. I'm not entirely sure, but I would like to see some discussion on sacrificing possible town reads over lynching other stronger town players on the idea that numbers alone will win us the game.

I agree, but few others do. Personally I'd PL A50 D1 if I could. All the lies add confusion, and confusion benefits scum. It wasn't very difficult to whip up a lynch on him when we needed to.

[Persivul]

I'd have also stuck to my guns on persivul being scum by hood PoE, like from your perspective I couldn't have come to any other conclusion.

Yeah that made no sense. I didn't really like pushing him for it, because if he got lynched I'd be next, but as town I would have been all over it, so I really had to.

[Persivul]

that thought is something i townread from you, Fish. logic = scum in the hood.
but we don't always play with perfect logic, i certainly don't.
i should have gone after Persivul again but his investigative claim really got me. i do wish Elbirn hadn't lied during massclaim, it was his claim as it was that made me suspicious.

Why massclaim at all in a closed setup?

[Persivul]

i think towns as a whole really have to think about if lying is a good idea or not.

Nope. This paragraph from the wiki was written in 2011:

Lynch All Liars is a longstanding mantra in the mafiascum.net community. Quite simply, most Townies have no reason to lie about their actions, motivations, or roles. Many newish Townies will attempt to lie in attempts to gambit, and fail miserably by hurting the Town in the process. These lies can be indistinguishable from deliberate scum gambits, and leaving them unpunished reinforces the behavior as a viable option for scum.

It's still valid today. It's more valid, as it's not just newish townies who do it. People are in love with the gambit, but gambits usually don't work well for town, and they leave the door open for scum.

No one blinked an eye when I said I had lied about being unlimited and was only 3X. Why would they? That was mild compared to what others had done.

[Persivul]

I think, by design, all closed setups should heavily penalize town for mass-claiming.
To me, a core part of playing town is having less information. Being able to 'clear' people solely off of claim/role is obnoxious and contrary to the game of mafia I'm trying to run.

But I acknowledge this is pretty far from how most people tend to feel--that mass-claiming is a strategy like any other and me being against it is just me not liking that sort of strategy being effective.

^This

[Persivul]

what do you mean "nope"? i just said lying wasn't a good idea.

To clarify, I meant that towns shouldn't even have to think about whether it's a good idea or not.

[Persivul]

I think there's been a general falling away from solid and town play over the past couple years.

Yep. I've been preaching it, but it mostly falls on deaf ears.

[Persivul]

Oh, and if you're going to massclaim to try to solve the game...actually massclaim. What was with the people at the bottom of the list saying

nah...we don't need to claim

?