Micro 898 | Forest Fire | Over

[january]

heyo! yes, i've read around 2/3 of the game

current reads are (town to scum)
Dann
banakai
pyrrha
penguin
bs
gamma

will go on to explain them but i like starting out with reads first to save everyone time

[january]

also: im aware that my slot has been pretty heavily scumread but in my (completely unbiased!) opinion psyche was actually quite towny and would place him around 2nd or 3rd on that list^

i feel like he was scumread mostly for the way he posted rather than the content itself... if that makes sense? like to me dann is obvtown because he's more active and leader-y but i feel like theres a few of psyche's posts that were quite towny but ignored

[january]

i can talk about those later ^ but 727 is the strongest imo

most of my scumreads are based on PoE because i have trouble actually sorting anyone into scum

[january]

yep for sure

ok next post will be a little bit long and very slowly answers your question... sorry for wallposting so soon (not really)

but one thing is that i would have placed pyrrha higher except
1. i feel annoyed for psyche just reading pyrrha's tunnel on him
2. i feel like there's been some places where it just seems to me that pyrrha is just following dann (i.e. 1020)

[january]

but i'll get back to my pyrrha read later. it might just be paranoia?

ok read on banakai
all kinda centers around a discussion in d1 i think(?)

Spoiler: quotes

Also, if someone is about to argue that I'm the BS scum buddy in this situation trying to push an alternative. I would counter that by saying the BS vs. RC situation never happens if I'm BS' scum partner and just leave it at that.

Out of curiosity, how would you stop me?

Let's not leave it at that since you brought it up. It happened over the course of 2ish hours - read: quickly. Very likely that you weren't even present before or during the interaction.

yes I agree with penguin please explain this

That's fair. I'd hope in a theoretical scum PT I'd be able to talk to him before hand and maybe dissuade that plan.

But you're right in that I wasn't present for the actual interaction. So, bad defense. I guess I could be the potential BS scum partner here. But uh, I'm not.

it sorta seems to me like all 3 of u guys (PP, Banakai, Dann) all townslipped by assuming maf had daytalk
but of the 3, i felt that banakai was the most... lowkey(?) about the assumption of daytalk
i think if he was mafia there he'd either try to make the "townslip" more obvious by explicitly mentioning daytalk, but instead he just says "yeah answer PP's question"

[january]

oh that was way shorter than i thought it'd be lol

[january]

there was definitely another reason i townread banakai i just dont remember it atm

[january]

oh also i really dont scumread BS that much so my list should be more like
BS
.
.
.
.
.
Gamma

[january]

this is a somewhat unpopular opinion maybe but i feel like pyrrha has a pretty high scum potential.. i would actually put her lower on the list but i feel like she has both scumtold AND towntold which is confusing my reads atm

idk what's up with my slot and being the only one who scumreads pyrrha lol

[january]

actually, january, do you have any recent completed scum games?

I feel pretty confident your slot is town but I still must pay my dues

nope sorry
this is my 2nd game on this site and the 1st was town

i'd like to think my towngame is pretty strong town and my scumgame a lot weaker? but nobody's would trust me when i say that lol

[january]

yeah fair i felt like pyrrha's early d1 was a lot scummier than the rest

i did base most of my reads on early game just because i skimmed through late d1 and early d2

i just feel like her playstyle just seems a bit... different? feels like her reads are a bit too jumpy. i'm a bit lazy to compare meta rn but if anyone has info i'd appreciate it

oh and also i feel like she's relying way too much on meta to make reads. for example the sheep read - felt like if she had disregarded meta then sheep would have been pretty obvmaf to her. forgot if she ended up changing her mind but my point is just that meta does not go nearly as far as you might think it does

[january]

@Pyrrha who is that at?

[january]

nevermind

i guess that means u scumread sheep in the end?

[january]

well the link's broke and it clearly says 727... so

Spoiler:

yeeeeeeeeeeet

No one is tr your enthusiasm for your blatant attempt at trying to mislynching me. If I wasn’t already sl you, I’d be convinced you had no clue how to scumhunt but then I wouldn’t want to get into trouble for insulting your

intelligence

ability to play mafia properly.

Ethos’ spamming up the thread with multiple posts of blatantly faked enthusiasm, really clinches it for me. Out of nowhere, he decides to drive a mislynch on me as a extremely thinly veiled OMGUS. I don’t know whether to be amused or smdh that he seriously thinks everyone has suddenly gotten lobotomies.

But I’ll humour him anyway just for the lulz.

Okay @Ethos, what exactly do you find scummy about my play and be forewarned, I refuse to accept “YEET” as a valid answer.

Your entire ISO is devoid of actually doing anything but trying to seem busy...

(1) Asking questions when the answers are readily available

,

(2) saying something is important but not really pressing it or doing anything with it (299)

,

(3) voting Psyche but not engaging with him at all

, not really pushing anyone really...even your catchup was a regurgitation of the game state and not really your stances.

(4) What are they by the way?

You said you would be willing to lynch 3 players but didn't actually take the time to say who they were.

And, sorry - why are you voting Psyche again? And, I swear to god, if you say opportunistic in your answer I am going to GIFslap you so hard.

1: Citation needed.

2: are you really suggesting that I had no purpose with that? Or that perhaps the answer given didn't do anything to progress where I was going? Weak point.

3: I really thought the reason I voted pine was pretty self-explanatory

4: what are yours? I remember a readlist with no explanation and some side commentary but.. that's about it

penguin can be scum with pyrrha tbh

I still think you’re scum here fr but I really want to see if any towngames actually exist where you are seriously this bad at mafia. Probably more scum flailing than dumb town but eh?

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=80259&start=100

Oh Lol, this explains so much. I think I’m townlocking Penguin and never unvoting Ethos until he’s flipped.

Lmao @ Penguin. Okay Banaki, I’ll let it go. It’s just that I find meta really helpful when I haven’t played with someone before.

If Ethos flips town here, I will be legit shocked. Penguin nailed it, he isn’t doing any actual sorting. He acts like he’s invested but his reads are basically empty with very little logical reasoning for pretty much anything.

@Banaki, sure it’s “dumb” and I’m sure he is well aware of it. He is making this out of left field nonsense push on me out of basic desperation to get tr for hard pushing anyone, whether he has any actual reason to do it is apparently besides the point. He’s counting on someone tr him for this, based on just that: it being so unbelievably dumb.

Your entire ISO is devoid of actually doing anything but trying to seem busy...

(1) Asking questions when the answers are readily available

,

(2) saying something is important but not really pressing it or doing anything with it (299)

,

(3) voting Psyche but not engaging with him at all

, not really pushing anyone really...even your catchup was a regurgitation of the game state and not really your stances.

(4) What are they by the way?

You said you would be willing to lynch 3 players but didn't actually take the time to say who they were.

And, sorry - why are you voting Psyche again? And, I swear to god, if you say opportunistic in your answer I am going to GIFslap you so hard.

1: Citation needed.

2: are you really suggesting that I had no purpose with that? Or that perhaps the answer given didn't do anything to progress where I was going? Weak point.

3: I really thought the reason I voted pine was pretty self-explanatory

4: what are yours? I remember a readlist with no explanation and some side commentary but.. that's about it

penguin can be scum with pyrrha tbh

This 100% reads like a scum post. Town rarely reacts this way. Town asks why do you think this? Here is why I did ___. Scum otoh hands just deflects and turns it on the accuser. How dare you express even the mildest suspicion me for my uberscummy play? You obviously have to be scum. If I AtE loud and long enough, maybe you actually might be fooled into actually believe I mean anything that I’m saying.

eth0s, can you expand on why you think Pyrrha is scum?

I’m not really seeing it off that one post you quoted

I would really love to know that too. What is abundantly clear to me is that he views me as both a threat to him and he’s trying to push my mislynch to save himself.

His push on me is 100% a scum push. Not even a single iota of any attempt to correctly sort me or re-evaluate anything. I could post my role pm and he would still find a way to try to convince all of you that you’re colourblind.

A couple things really obvious from these posts:
- Pyrra suggests in 714 that her push of the eth0s lynch was primarily a matter of poe. This is clearly false.

No one

D1 was more confident that eth0s was scum than pyrra. Absolutely no one.

- Pyrra says that she'd be absolutely

shocked

if eth0s ends up flipping town. Does Pyrra's D2 posts provide any evidence of

shock

?? Like, the actual emotion? There's no clue of it at all. Instead, we see the evidence of the exact opposite: a muted reaction in the short term, and increased self-assurance, increased confidence in her grasp of the current gamestate in the long term.

I'm not saying that there should have been some big mea culpa; I can appreciate that my own has seemed awkward and overwrought. What I am saying is that there's no evidence even

implicitly

of the sort of emotional impact you'd expect from the eth0s mislynch given pyrra's D1 iso. This is

in addition to

her clear misrepresentation today of her mindset surrounding eth0s yesterday.

We're left with two possibilities. The first is that Pyrra, along with having a

far

more tenuous grasp of the gamestate than she thinks she has, has a very powerful self-serving bias that leaves her not just to interpret but to

remember

the past in the way that flatters her most. The other is that she's playing a muscular scumgame ITT, performing towniness with all these posts seeming to sort and lynch scum while actually trying to orchestrate mislynches.

In either situation, ego plays a big part in explaining why Pyrra's playing the way she's chosen to - whether she's just that confident in her townplay that she shrugs off any mistakes, or sure enough of herself that she's deigned to play for the center of attention as scum. The personality read is easy. I still don't know a reliable way to convert that into an alliance sort.

and lmao can you read psyche instead of saying that he's scum because of someone who posted literally 2 times
is that where your read originally came from bc i feel like you've been tunneling my slot for quite a long time and it reads as justifying an already-made read rather than an organic read

[january]

I thought Pine was extremely scummy.

Pine had 2 posts...

And yeah I'm gonna case Gamma but not tonight

january trying to push me here, is pinging me pretty hard. If he tries to push a mislynch on me, he’s defacto scumclaiming imo.

did you quote the wrong post too lol

and idk why you think that someone scumreading you makes them scum...
its not like you've been towny lmfao

[january]

wait sorry that's mean i don't mean to provoke you

you have towntold but you also have done some scummy things and i think good town players are usually willing to accept that there might be reasons for people to scumread them

[january]

yeah fair i felt like pyrrha's early d1 was a lot scummier than the rest

i did base most of my reads on early game just because i skimmed through late d1 and early d2

i just feel like her playstyle just seems a bit... different?

feels like her reads are a bit too jumpy.

i'm a bit lazy to compare meta rn but if anyone has info i'd appreciate it

oh and also i feel like she's relying way too much on meta to make reads. for example the sheep read - felt like if she had disregarded meta then sheep would have been pretty obvmaf to her. forgot if she ended up changing her mind but my point is just that meta does not go nearly as far as you might think it does

Making meta reads makes you sr me, why?

i never said that i scumread you for making meta reads?
they're two different paragraphs because they're two different ideas

bold = why i scumread you
last paragraph = a comment on your playstyle

[january]

ok well that's quite annoying lol

if i was to randomly start this day scumreading dann, i think he'd ask me why rather than just quickly calling me scum
and i'd townread him more for that

[january]

I thought Pine was extremely scummy.

Pine had 2 posts...

And yeah I'm gonna case Gamma but not tonight

january trying to push me here, is pinging me pretty hard. If he tries to push a mislynch on me, he’s defacto scumclaiming imo.

did you quote the wrong post too lol

and idk why you think that someone scumreading you makes them scum...
its not like you've been towny lmfao

Hey, are you willing to go 1v1 with me and get me stumped and you follow because I won’t hesitate to do that if you continue to push me? Because I think Dann is wrong and I’m willing to bet the game on it. Are you?

is this a trap question lol

no i don't want to stump you but if you keep misrepping my posts (or just ignoring half the stuff i say maybe?) then i'm willing to lynch you if all you're gonna do is tunnel me because i don't think a genuine town would be so unwilling to rethink their reads
and no i'm definitely not gonna follow you (whichever meaning you're talking about there). a) i'm not gonna follow your reads i'm gonna make my own / b) i'm not gonna get lynched because i'm towntelling

and no i'm not trying to stump you? i'm trying to lynch you if you're maf and i think you might be maf!
but also you're refusing to even read me and all you've done is omgus me.. and psyche

if you need proof on the above statement: are you aware that i called gamma my strongest scumread? or are you just ignoring it?
bc that means that i want to lynch gamma over you rn!

[january]

That last paragraph is entirely NAI, hence at least part of the reason I’m suspicious of this.

it's fking intended to be NAI

i'm just commenting on your play and trying to say that you should base your reads less on meta

and you scumread me for saying something NAI? everyone's said something NAI and i don't think this makes me any more scummy than everyone else?

i get it if you don't like me criticizing your reads... if that's the problem i'll stop...
but don't say that my criticizing reads without making alignment conclusions is scummy because it sure as hell isn't

[january]

ok well that's quite annoying lol

if i was to randomly start this day scumreading dann, i think he'd ask me why rather than just quickly calling me scum
and i'd townread him more for that

Yeah, if you started this day sr Dann, I’d probably also call you scum. You’re lhf yes? So, why wouldn’t I sr for pushing

anyone

whom I read as obvtown?

it's a hypothetical and i wasn't talking about you i was talking about dann

and oh idk because people have different reads maybe?

[january]

im more than willing to 1v1 you if you for some reason make the mistake of forcing it (:

if only because i know for a fact i'll win and i want to prove it

but that's beside the point... i don't think that'll get anywhere except for improving my ego

[january]

what's lhf?

and no i said i'll win the 1v1 and then at the end of the post i say "it won't get anywhere except improving my ego" which means that it would just be to improve my ego and not to further the game

[january]

sorry i'll spell everything i say out very very clearly

beating you if you forced a 1v1 would improve my ego because it would mean i'm townier than you
this would prove that you are incorrect about you being more "obvtown" than me and therefore mean that i am actually more "obvtown" than you
thus improving my fragile ego by proving that i am better than you
QED

[january]

it has nothing to do with your flip and everything to do with me being townier than you (:

anyways this isn't getting anywhere i'm going to sleep

[january]

no its not the same thing at all
at this exact moment of time where i am very annoyed with you, my ego does not care about winning the game and cares much more about proving you wrong
hopefully that changes tomorrow!

i already explained the banakai read so if you reread that it'll save us both some time
and gamma's mostly PoE but i'll quote some stuff tomorrow

[january]

exactly! you're supporting my point rn!

if i win the hypothetical 1v1 then it proves you wrong, thus it's an "ego lynch" rather than a game-furthering lynch. i come from a site where people accept these as 2 different things, so maybe we're just using different vocabulary. maybe "annoyed with you so i lynch you without regard to whether or not i think you're scum" is a better description of what i mean by "ego lynch"?

of course your ego didn't feel good lynching eth0s he was obvious town lol

[january]

well can u ask questions instead because if you're just asking me to explain the banakai read again then i'll literally just copy and paste what i just wrong bc nothing's changed

i'm fine with doing react-y posts but if you want me to actually quote anything you'll have to wait till tomorrow bc i'm in bed

[january]

I’m still not sure how Banaki “townslipped” here?

i think he did. is there anything you want to discuss?

What did you think about him saying that Ehos wanted to be stumped?

didn't read this, can you quote it?

Also, it still bugs me that he was equally gung ho about the Ethos’ mislynch, yet he still inexplicably blamed me for leading it.

idk what this is either... didn't read it. i definitely based most of my read on what i believe to be a townslip

Being first on a bad wagon /= “leading/driving a mislynch, so both of those things still ping me.

being the very first on a bad wagon tends to be a town thing imo. scum usually is too scared to lead the wagon? obviously not true all the time but reads to me that banakai probably would not have done that on d1. imo this is at worst NAI but at best a towntell (ish)

Plus his play recently has been seriously underwhelming. Also, him accusing Dann of “fake townslipping”, sounded like a weird thing to say.

so like... i also did not read this? maybe the townslip clouded my judgement but i've been skipping over his posts.

Like if we lynch Gamma and game doesn’t end, it’s 100% not me. I can’t see a world where it’s Dann and I hard tr Penguin and I still don’t see how Gamma is a sheep buddy. So that’s where I’m at.

fair enough, i agree with some of your reads and i get why you'd be scumreading me and/or banakai if only because there's literally nobody else to scumread
but i do think i've towntold and so has psyche so i'm asking you to reconsider

[january]

can you quote the interactions where u think gamma can't be buddies with sheep? i have a vague idea of what you're talking about but i'd like to see if it matches with me

i don't think gamma towntold and i feel like their scummy-ness outweighs the read that they don't partner with sheep but maybe there's something i misssed

[january]

Okay, I’m starting to get what you meant by the ego thing but if I did a 1 v 1 with town, my ego would take a massive beating because then I obviously died for nothing.

well the ego of the person who died would be hurt for sure... but not the one who wins

[january]

How was he “obvious town”? He was death tunneling me and trying to hard drive my mislynch?

it seems we just have really different methods of making reads tbh

he was obvtown to me upon reading (and i didn't check who the d1 lynch was, just to see if my reads lined up)

and i believe that sometimes town deathtunnels town. hell, i've done that myself.
it's just a product of having bad reads and i wouldn't auto-scumread someone just for scumreading me, EVEN if i thought myself to be obvious town. sure, i'd ask for their reasoning and be a little insulted, but i'd only actually scumread them if i didn't feel like their logic lined up.

example: you scumreading psyche who i felt was obvtown. i didn't scumread you for thinking psyche was maf, but rather a combination of what felt to me to be faulty logic and other interactions.

[january]

tbf i did consider that that might've been a fake townslip from one of them and dann did feel the most likely (to be clear, i decided it probably wasn't, but i did consider it)
and banakai considering it actually makes HIS townslip even more towny imo

feels like u might be doing the thing again where u scumread banakai for scumreading your top tr
bc i think it's a valid consideration

oh YEAH and i townread banakai for going after dann when nobody else did. i think he's wrong but it's way too contrarian(?) to be scum imo

[january]

i think it's too hard to try to read for interactions w sheep and clear someone based on it, bc interactions are pretty unpredictable whenever there's a mafchat, even if it's only nightchat (i've had games where there's no chat and it's quite a bit different)

do you think gamma is independently scummy?

[january]

i feel like this would just all be solved with a gamma lynch...

i'm trying to find second candidate for scum and i'm just.. not finding anyone??

[january]

tmi isn't scummy necessarily it's just a playstyle
some people just put all their unfiltered thoughts in the thread

can't talk for banakai but 742 seems... fine? to me at least.
if i genuinely believed someone was scum but everyone else thought was town, i'd say something along those lines somewhat out of frustration. i've definitely done that in games before where it's like "this person seems like obvscum to me but everyone else says their town... do they have to continue leading mislynches before people realize they're town?"

pretend it's someone else and not you. it seems normal to me?

[january]

tldr;

i think he has (very) bad reads but i don't necessarily feel like he's maf

[january]

thanks for the quotes and summaries btw

effort's too hard for me rn

[january]

yeah thats fair

i'll think about it later... signing off now

everyone else u better contribute too

[january]

(completely unbiased!)

This means you read the game before recieving PM?

partially yes but that was mostly sarcastic

[january]

@january, can you link me one of your town and scumgames?

actually, january, do you have any recent completed scum games?

I feel pretty confident your slot is town but I still must pay my dues

nope sorry
this is my 2nd game on this site and the 1st was town

i'd like to think my towngame is pretty strong town and my scumgame a lot weaker? but nobody's would trust me when i say that lol

r.e.a.d. p.l.s.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=81110 is towngame

feel free to compare... but i don't think it'll get you that far tbh

[january]

if it was permanent then it’d be even more impossible for scum to win lol

[january]

and um..
wrt whatever post you said you need one of my scum games?

what do you expect me to do here? find a game and pick scum and finish it before today ends?

like i said earlier (where you accused me of being NAI!)... you rely on meta way too much

[january]

(completely unbiased!)

This means you read the game before recieving PM?

partially yes but that was mostly sarcastic

Partially means what?

it means i read part of the game
i think it was the first 10 pages or so? a few of psyche’s lines and i got a general sense of towniness?
kinda forgot exactly when i got the pm and i didn’t really make it a point to distinguish pre-PM reads from post

[january]

pls read

go back to my post
and look where it says “this is my second game”

if my first game was town, and this is my second game (also town!! who would have guessed haha!) then do you think i have any completed scumgames? (answer is no)

[january]

never said you shouldn’t use it at all
otherwise i would have said, “you shouldn’t use meta”

but alas i did not say that
i just said that you rely too much on it which suggests that you use more meta than you should

[january]

nope that’s also incorrect meta

nobody said i’m a newbie and i’m pretty sure that’s clear based on how i’m playing
so actually no i’m very capable of being towny as scum (:

[january]

oh my god there’s other worlds besides mafiascum and i’m pretty sure i said that more than once already

[january]

alright

taking a page from psyche’s book and tryyyyying to be nicer...

but hey i don’t blame a single person who scumreads you because some of your posts, if they were from any other player, would be really really realllly hard scum

and i’m not sure why you refuse to acknowledge that

[january]

anyways... back to reads

this is a bit confusing i thought there could be no other scum than gamma but apparently there is?? literally... nobody else can be maf wtf

all this does is increase paranoia on the towniest slots

might end up rereading banakai bc there’s a chance i’m just townreading him because i feel like the scumreads on him are faulty/incorrect. fallacy fallacy or something i think?

[january]

sure, doing that right now

from what i remember though i would have said pyrrha d1 and gamma d2 (i know gamma’s clear but it felt like sheep was trying to implicate them?)

i’ll let you know upon reread if that changed

[january]

sure, doing that right now

from what i remember though i would have said pyrrha d1 and gamma d2 (i know gamma’s clear but it felt like sheep was trying to implicate them?)

i’ll let you know upon reread if that changed

I’m not sure why you’d think that? Not Gamma obviously but I viewed his locktown read on me as a blatant pocket, as was the case with Dann and probably also BS.

this was based on my memory of reading of the first few pages before i replaced in

i could explain why i thought that... but it's extra work and honestly won't get us anywhere except into an argument
i no longer believe that read and it was made before i knew alignment, so it really has no relevance to the game

@Dann
whoops i got distracted but

sheep, bs, pyrrha, banakai, dann all some degree above null

leaving gamma, ethos, pine, penguin

i think this is the post that would give me the most partner-interactions if i could think straight rn...
maybe? idk

if i were sheep i'd probably put my partner in the null pool unless i thought my partner actually did towntell. so that would mean penguin would be scumpartner?

bc i don't think banakai actually towntold at that point. so putting partner-banakai in the tr pool seems like a bad idea for sheep.
the only alternative is that one of the actually towny people is maf. and i don't really think that's likely

not very confident about this but i do think i've skimmed over penguin and need to read them more... whenever i can commit to doing that...
i'm on holiday for the rest of the week so i may take a while

[january]

VOTE: bankai

will go through him again when im on a laptop

and i feel like this interaction could go either way so i'd say disregard this part

on one hand, this could be an attempted halfhearted bus between sheep and partner-banakai bc the reads backing this are kinda lacking

on the other hand, could be an attempt to make it seem like a bus. or it's just sheep's attempt to get a scummytown lynched

love wifom

[january]

i've never heard the term endgame before but i'm assuming it means something like surviving till the end?

in that case, yes i agree that sheep was probably not expecting to survive to the end bc of dann
so yeah, sheep was probably setting his partner up. not sure how thats relevant to what i said though, i was talking about scum partner distancing

Nothing in sheep’s interactions with Penguin suggest he’s being set up to endgame.

but this is exactly what i'm trying to say?
sheep putting partner in null reads would be an attempt to distance, which means that he's setting them up for endgame, right?

putting banakai in his townreads could also be set up to look like buddies?
so i don't really think your read quite works bc sheep had buddy-ish interactions with literally everyone

i mean this is basically what i already said in 1396
that i think scum would be more likely to put the people they want to buddy in their TR's and the people they want to distance from in their SR's/null
^ or at least, that's what

I

to do

but i guess it could be the other way around if they're trying to wifom?
i generally don't like making reads purely based on partner interactions because it's quite easy to fake an interaction one way or the other

[january]

Another thing that makes Banaki very likely scum is that scum frequently play this game of having diametrically opposing reads on a slot, so for example, sheep locktowns me and Banaki targets me or you or BS as scum. depending on who thinks he has a snowball’s chance of mislynching outside of whom he perceives is his biggest threat, which is obviously me.

this tends to be true, but it's not really any indicator or justification of who is mafia...

the fact that someone has opposite reads than a confirmed scum doesn't mean that they're mafia. lots of town could accidentally end up with opposite reads from scum.

it might work the other way where two people with identical reads are likely not maf.
but your logic here is confbiased and not actually logical

[january]

But Banaki’s play during most of the sheep wagon, wasn’t townie. Do you as town, just make a wolfy pop in and do jack, while your presumable “straongest townread” is getting (according to you) “mislynched”?

In what world does that ever come from town?

conversely:
is mafia just gonna do nothing when their partner is being lynched?
- I, as scum, would either flip to bussing or attempt to defend them.
or:
is a self-conscious mafia going to act so blatantly scummy and let their strongest townread get mislynched?
- I, as scum, would definitely try to be somewhat towny and either make an excuse of a "changing read" or something, rather than just let my townread die and make me look bad for not doing anything.

------

i feel like a lot of your evidence is interpreted in a way that justifies your pre-existing reads, because you tend to ignore that the evidence can quite easily be used to argue the complete opposite. and that's why reads completely flip way too quickly

i'm trying to make you consider your reads more and not necessarily dissuading the bw (yet)
but i really feel like even if you're right on this, your reasoning for it isn't correct

[january]

does anyone who tr's penguin wanna give me a towncase

bc im not sure i see why the tr is so strong

[january]

i mean... i get parts of it, but i don't see how nobody's even considering him

[january]

oh and btw this is kinda late and mostly irrelevant bc i hope we can lynch maf in less than 3 lynches

it was better for FF not to out who they (poured water on? i forgot what the power was called)

bc if mafia thinks they're successful with dousing every night, then they'll try to ignite after ML #2, which would decrease our lynchpool and increase odds purely statistically

I counted the lynches and stuff that we have left so I might as well post it here even though hopefully we don't need to get that far

Spoiler: lynch math

D3: 1 maf, 6 town... 2 town primed (assuming worst case)
mislynch on D3 -> D4: 1 maf, 5 town...

mislynch on D4:
Worst Case: 3 town primed - Loss
* Ignite: 3/4 living town were doused < worst case scenario, where all douses were successful and still alive
Otherwise - we get an extra lynch
* Ignite: 1 maf, 2 town (1 maf prime failed)
* No ignite: 1 maf, 4 town... 3 primed

tldr - we have 3 chances to lynch maf if any one of the douses failed or died

[january]

to be completely honest i was kinda hoping to hear someone else's read on penguin and then make my read based on that... probably laziness or something idk

but since you asked i'll try

i think there were spots where every player did towntell, including BS (and i'll explain that later). in hindsight, i guess gamma just seemed extra scummy because they weren't actually trying to towntell (i think)

clearly will have to adjust my reads more and i think i mostly just didn't read the rest of the people since i was stuck on gamma being scum or something

[january]

i hate people who self vote there's quite literally no reason to ever self vote

this is like the one thing that's an automatic reason for me to lynch someone

i can see this likely flipping town but now i'm obligated to vote him

[january]

working on the penguin case btw

just been distracted today, promise i'll do it soon enough

[january]

january I am somewhat paranoid about your slot and honestly it's because you don't really have any scum reads

that's fair but i usually never have scumreads, only townreads and non-townreads

and i do think everyone HAS had a few towny posts which is kinda why im struggling

but....
here's my penguin case (sorry it's long, tldr is at the bottom)

Spoiler:

spends first 20-ish posts with one-liners (mostly NAI at this point, just a different style of play)

I townread you, Dann.

this is the first read he has and it's not really justified or explained. that'd be fine normally especially since dann WAS towny. but i still feel like up to this point penguin's been extremely low-energy
same applies past this point too, but i think the general thing that stands out to me is penguin's reactive-ness. majority of posts are like 1 or 2 sentences reaction to other people's posts or gifs (love the gifs btw, just don't think they're particularly towny)

Last Night Tomorrow

i feel like penguin's reads this game lacked reasoning behind them. wasn't sure if this was just a habit of play, or an actual scum play. i compared it to the game pyrrha mentioned (viewtopic.php?f=56&t=78060) and i think he actually does give justifications for why he's trying to lynch people in that game.
basically: penguin's reads are phrased as very strong reads but i feel like if town!penguin genuinely wanted a scumread to be lynched, he'd be giving reasons and actually trying to convince people

from what i can tell, 433 is the only real reasoning that penguin has made for a read/lynch

oh and i realize that my read on eth0s is quite different than the majority of people's read, but i think penguin's push on him can be read as pushing a scummy player without genuinely attempting to classify them. the stuff he used as reasoning for the FOS were things like "eth0s didn't read and asked a question i already answered" ([post=#p11364905]426[/post]) which generally might appear scummy but isn't really a reason to sort someone as scum.
essentially: eth0s was lynchbait (sry) and i don't think penguin was un-confident enough on that push to be town

if you don't agree w that last paragraph its ok i kinda disagree with myself a little. but tell me what you think on the rest pls.

tldr; penguin isn't genuinely trying to convince people to vote his scumreads which i think is unusual as town who seems to be presenting their own reads as very strong

[january]

i hate people who self vote there's quite literally no reason to ever self vote

this is like the one thing that's an automatic reason for me to lynch someone

i can see this likely flipping town but now i'm obligated to vote him

And like there can be reason to self vote
I have self hammered a few times as town to avoid deadline no lynch or just take myself off the table

i exaggerated. but i still don't think he has a good reason here as town and the only reason that makes sense is it's a very badly constructed scum bluff thing (idk what it's called)

[january]

january I am somewhat paranoid about your slot and honestly it's because you don't really have any scum reads

that's fair but i usually never have scumreads, only townreads and non-townreads

and i do think everyone HAS had a few towny posts which is kinda why im struggling

but....
here's my penguin case (sorry it's long, tldr is at the bottom)

Spoiler:

spends first 20-ish posts with one-liners (mostly NAI at this point, just a different style of play)

I townread you, Dann.

this is the first read he has and it's not really justified or explained. that'd be fine normally especially since dann WAS towny. but i still feel like up to this point penguin's been extremely low-energy
same applies past this point too, but i think the general thing that stands out to me is penguin's reactive-ness. majority of posts are like 1 or 2 sentences reaction to other people's posts or gifs (love the gifs btw, just don't think they're particularly towny)

Last Night Tomorrow

i feel like penguin's reads this game lacked reasoning behind them. wasn't sure if this was just a habit of play, or an actual scum play. i compared it to the game pyrrha mentioned (viewtopic.php?f=56&t=78060) and i think he actually does give justifications for why he's trying to lynch people in that game.
basically: penguin's reads are phrased as very strong reads but i feel like if town!penguin genuinely wanted a scumread to be lynched, he'd be giving reasons and actually trying to convince people

from what i can tell, 433 is the only real reasoning that penguin has made for a read/lynch

oh and i realize that my read on eth0s is quite different than the majority of people's read, but i think penguin's push on him can be read as pushing a scummy player without genuinely attempting to classify them. the stuff he used as reasoning for the FOS were things like "eth0s didn't read and asked a question i already answered" (426) which generally might appear scummy but isn't really a reason to sort someone as scum.
essentially: eth0s was lynchbait (sry) and i don't think penguin was un-confident enough on that push to be town

if you don't agree w that last paragraph its ok i kinda disagree with myself a little. but tell me what you think on the rest pls.

tldr; penguin isn't genuinely trying to convince people to vote his scumreads. i think this is unusual since he's presenting his reads as strong reads. as town with strong reads he'd be trying to convince people more

edited some dumb formatting thing and the tldr that was written in gibberish

apologies if it's somewhat incoherent, was kinda just noting things as i read so the thought progression kinda... progresses throughout the post

[january]

anyways upon reread i really really do not see any posts that justify the strong townread that everyone has on him

the only reasoning that i would use (and have been using until recently) to townread penguin was the apparent townslip about daytalk
but that's not really as strong as i thought it was anymore

[january]

My issue with a lot of his posts, is he keeps saying things that sound contradictory. Like, “people will listen” once he’s flipped - clearly implying that he’s correct on my being scum, then his comment about people calling him “bad town”, implies that he’s wrong on me.

Because if he was right, no one would be calling him bad town for that. This post says to me that he is acknowledging trying to push a mislynch on me. If he really thought I was scum, he wouldn’t then make that comment about people calling him “bad town”. Therefore I view his comment about people listening to him when he flips as disingenuous.

The thing is, if he really is “bad town” here and not scum, where is the self-awareness of that? I really don’t see any. It does definitely seem to me that he doesn’t honestly believe in his sr on me.

1. clearly he thinks he's correct on his read? not sure if anyone would make a confident read and then say they think they're wrong lol
2. he's saying that people will call him bad town and ignore his read. that's not him saying he thinks he's wrong. he's saying that OTHER PEOPLE will say he's wrong and ignore him. i think you're completely misreading everything at this point. it seems extremely clear to me that he's saying "i know Pyrrha is mafia but people will ignore me after they lynch me"
3. why would he need to be self-aware of being "bad town"?? most people don't think they're bad but that doesn't mean they're mafia...

[january]

anyone wanna read my penguino case or comment or something i put so much work into it

bc i seriously have no idea how penguin is townread and i really want to know

[january]

aight sorry if that came off as aggressive or annoyed, not really sure why i sounded like that earlier

definitely not expecting people to be online today, just wanted to make sure nobody skipped over it

happy thanksgiving for those who celebrate it!

[january]

If he was right on me, no one would call him bad town, so I disagree with you that isn’t contradictory. If he was right, people would call him a GOAT. You’re making the assumption that he’s specifically referring to immediately following his lynch as opposed to post-game. I don’t think it’s clear.

he said that he thinks people will call him bad town and not vote you. so that means he's not talking about post-game, since people don't pick lynches in post-game

anyways, i don't think this part of your read is valid

[january]

Who do you think is scum if you’re wrong?

Like just assume you’re wrong for a moment, where do you look next?

I obviously don’t know. Obviously one of my tr would have to be wrong.

All I know is I’m grateful january replaced into this game because I very likely would have mislynched Psyche. While I thought Pine scummy and Psyche bordeline, january is super townie. The sheer level of nuanced thinking is not something I can see scum replicating.

I do think he has a point about Penguin’s not really making the same level of deep reads he did in LNT. In every game I’ve played with scum!Penguin, he’s played more like he did in Excalibur and No Dead Person but then he says, his meta is different in larges than in micros.

So, with january slot, being super townie, I have to reconsider anyone who’s not townlock and january really seems obtown to me.

Sheep and Penguin were Banaki’s top townreads iirc?

*i prefer if u use she instead of he. ty <3*

and ok do u think my point applies to this game or not? and u did say that penguin was a strong-ish townread earlier (iirc) so can u explain that read a little bit

[january]

penguin - i realize that the case seems biased towards already reading you as scum - that was actually my purpose

it was kinda with the purpose of challenging the general townread on you and i didn’t think that would be possible if i just said “all these things effectively make him null”

as for my actual read on you - i seriously just don’t think you’ve towntold as much as anyone else so that’s why I think you’re scum

[january]

She assumed I was scum and then read my posts with the intention of finding supporting evidence...admittedly.

i’m talking to
and penguin assumed that i was scum because he didn’t understand the point i just made was
assumptions suck don’t they...

i made a case with the sole purpose of challenging the majority of people’s townread on you
it actually starts out quite unbiased to be fair. the stuff i say at the start is like “eh this is kinda null”

and then through making that case i decided you were scum

[january]

^ idk what the “i’m talking to” is for oops mobile

damn what the heck changed i haven’t even done anything in the last day and suddenly you scumread me??

[january]

now it sucks because if i was to ever back off on the penguin read everyone’s just going to point to me as scummy lol

i acknowledge that you voting sheep makes you slightly townier, but i don’t think it’s strong enough to townread you based on that. bussing does exist and it’s not like there were any other lynch choices at that moment iirc

[january]

preferably not me after i’ve towntold a lot

and yes i would like to lynch penguin but i know i’m not confident on that

(no that’s not scum setting up for a mislynch, i seriously don’t feel confident in any of my reads. i just have a gut read that banakai isn’t scum and penguin reads as scummier than me)

[january]

thinking that Bs and Banakai were bastions of town compared to me.

this is a straw man fallacy i never said anything close to that

[january]

pyrrha put yourself in my spot why wouldn’t i be throwing shade at dann after he’s said i’m towny up until he suddenly votes me...

pyrrha you said earlier that there was no chance you’d lynch me. but when dann suddenly scumreads me you’re scumreading my slot again (and based on posts like 800 posts ago which you already pushed on earlier)

was your townread on me solely based on dann’s stated read on me?

[january]

i’ll answer u later BS but i’d say reread his sheep vote and the ISO i’ve read doesn’t seem that towny to me, if he had pushed on sheep or done anything except for vote it i’d say it’s towny
but it’s not

[january]

If I was scum, I would have driven the bus on sheep.

and i really don’t think you should townread him purely for voting sheep

and afaik nobody has any other reason to townread him besides the vote

[january]

aren’t you trying to get towncredit right now lol

[january]

That’s why I’m voting her, she really hasn’t. She’s just calling him scum for no reason. She unlike you, is making no real effort to try and sort him.

GOD you’re so annoying saying I’M the one with revisionist history lmfao

you’re just ignoring the whole case I made and then saying I have no reason to scumread penguin LMAO

i know you disagree with my reads but you’re completely lying to yourself and to everyone else when you say I have no reason to scumread penguin

i honestly can’t believe how easily you just ignore parts that don’t fit your read and only include parts that do. how come you never mentioned psyche’s “slip” when you townread me and then when you scumread me you suddenly start mentioning it? it’s not like it wasn’t there before??

[january]

oops don’t wanna start a fight again that’d be annoying zzz

[january]

That’s why I’m voting her, she really hasn’t. She’s just calling him scum for no reason. She unlike you, is making no real effort to try and sort him.

1. like i said before that’s a flat out lie
2. hey i gave that as one of the reasons i scumread penguin (bc he didn’t try to sort anyone)... oh wait i apparently don’t have any reasons... what’s this then...

[january]

if you lynch me then you better follow my reads but i know you’re just gonna call me bad town... oh hey this sounds familiar

and @ethos no i don’t really want to vote banakai because i think they’re less likely to be maf than penguin

i’d rather lynch my mafread so i don’t have to deal with this game anymore

and if banakai flips town i’m just gonna have to do this again tomorrow

if it comes to me v banakai when the days almost over, sure since i’m not nearly confident enough to protect him with my life lol
but not right now when i still have a chance to convince people (albeit a small chance i guess)

[january]

I very much doubt town!me would react the way you did. It made your initial sr on Penguin look faked because you just pretty much dropped it and had you really thought it had some merit, I think town!you would be walking it back, not just simply dropped it and then shade Dann.

If you have a real read on someone and you begin to doubt it, you don’t just abandon it like that unless something like a claim happens to suddenly dismantle it and you did admit that you sr Pengin first and then scumcased him, as opposed to the other way around. Also, why no comment on Penguin’s posts since then? Wouldn’t town!you have an opinion on your biggest sr?

ok i admit that the question about putting yourself in my place wasn’t well thought out. we clearly play different and if i had acted the way you did i’d probably sound super scummy lol

which initial scumread on penguin? i don’t recall ever dropping any read?? i was suspicious of penguin and then i made a case on him and upon reading, convinced myself he was maf, and i don’t think i’ve ever dropped that read? sure i’ve had doubts but that’s a towny thing last time i checked

and i’m not exactly sure what “shading” dann means but no i never called him maf or indicated a scumread on him after he voted me

you’re misrepresenting me now and it’s a little bit annoying

[january]

also:

Also, why no comment on Penguin’s posts since then?

huh? are you seriously scumreading me for not responding to penguin when i have been?
once again you’re just trying to fit everything into your own narrative and it really doesn’t fit here

[january]

This is an example of how town reads Penguin. See the nuanced read on Penguin, Gamma does here?

nu·anced
adjective
characterized by subtle shades of meaning or expression.

no not really. where’s the subtle shades of meaning?
gamma’s read: they tr penguin less than Dann
my read: i scumread penguin more than everyone else

i know nuanced is a nice buzzword but i’m not sure how it’s relevant or even related to whatever your point is?

gamma’s read isn’t any more nuanced or town-minded or whatever you’re saying (at least not that part that you quoted, idk didn’t read the rest). just because gamma’s read is... well... useless bc nobody tr’s penguin more than dann, or that it’s less confident than mine (is that what you’re scumreading?) doesn’t make it any townier than mine lol

[january]

That’s why I’m voting her, she really hasn’t. She’s just calling him scum for no reason. She unlike you, is making no real effort to try and sort him.

GOD you’re so annoying saying I’M the one with revisionist history lmfao

you’re just ignoring the whole case I made and then saying I have no reason to scumread penguin LMAO

i know you disagree with my reads but you’re completely lying to yourself and to everyone else when you say I have no reason to scumread penguin

i honestly can’t believe how easily you just ignore parts that don’t fit your read and only include parts that do. how come you never mentioned psyche’s “slip” when you townread me and then when you scumread me you suddenly start mentioning it? it’s not like it wasn’t there before??

This isn’t helping. Calling me “ annoying”. Saying I’m “lying to myself”. What?

What case did you make? You said he wasn’t town because he voted sheep. Am I missing something?

NOOOO that is not my whole case this is a wild misunderstanding. it sounds like you’re saying my read is fake bc you thought that was why i scumread penguin? ya if that was my only reason that’d be the dumbest read and i get why you’d scumread me...

that part is my one concession that his vote on sheep MIGHT be towny but then i counter that with “i don’t particularly think this is something that he should be strongly townread for” (aka this is not the reason i scumread him, it’s me bringing up a counterpoint to my read and then deciding it’s not strong enough)

i gave a whole case on him and i’m not sure if you remember it but i’m pretty sure you did read it

check 1462 there’s actually reasons there

[january]

no wtf where did i say i hard tr banakai

and lol i’m not the one who puts clears in my townreads that’s someone else

u and dann are my townreads like i said forever ago. and i would have told you if that changed

i think you’re interpreting me arguing with you or dann as a scumread on you, but it’s not...

[january]

Why do you think january has a mental condition?

He seems like a person who thinks like a mathematician to me.

lmao

*if u don’t mind could u use she instead of he

[january]

responding to all of gamma’s stuff, sorry quoting doesn’t work on mobile so it’s just a big block of stuff
—————
i did explain the reads i think? they definitely changed since then but if you have questions on a specific read it’d be easier to explain

i can show u the quotes i liked. i townread him more for the “what” and i think his delivery was just perceived as weaker? idk how to explain it exactly but i’ll find the quotes

can also explain this in more detail. but i think i just townread everyone else more than you. i made a list of reads and i had at least one post that i was like “i’m pretty sure this person is town” for everyone except u. clearly that was wrong but at the time it seemed valid to me

yeah i was annoyed and i kinda still am. self meta but i do it more as town. it frustrates me when i get scumread for something that isn’t even scummy. won’t say more just cuz... don’t say things when you’re annoyed right

no i think both of u misinterpreted my point. i said that DANN would not immediately scumread me if i said i sr him. the hypothetical has nothing to do with pyrrha, it was just me criticizing her response by comparing it with how someone else might respond. i’m quite aware that pyrrha would probably respond the same if i was to scumread dann

eth0s had one particular post that was Very Towny to me, i’ll find it. sure i think he was probably stronger early d1 than the rest but at that point i had set him aside as town already. don’t see how having this read makes me scum and i can’t be that bad at making reads if it’s right...

[january]

no you really just ignored the rest of that post lol

the case was to CHALLENGE the weird townread on you. when i started the case i was only wary of you

and then when i made the case it convinced me that you were maf

but keep taking things out of context lol

[january]

i think i'm at L-1 right now?

do you mind at least letting me respond to gamma and waiting for dann to come back if you're gonna hammer

thanks.

[january]

predetermined purpose? yes, to find out if there was a potential for you to be scum. dann quite literally asked me to do it.

predetermined read? no, i was just wary of the townread on you because i didn't find you outstandingly towny

there's a difference. i tried to make my case on you unbiased and if i had decided from reading that i thought you were towny i would have just said "i can't make a case on penguin bc i think he's towny"

of if you read as null to me i would have said that. i would not have just made up a read.

but instead when i made the case i believed what i found was scummy so that's why i called you scum

[january]

is this any clearer or not

[january]

Did someone manage to break the argument, that Penguin "bussed" Sheep without making it obvious, so he is very likely to be town?

just to be clear, by "obvious" are you talking about him not pointing it out(1) or him not pushing very hard on sheep(2)?

1. if you're talking about him not pointing it out: i sort of suggested this earlier but it was sorta snarky so people probably just disregarded it or said i'm scum because i said that (lol). but i'm not sure when else someone would point out that they bussed, except when someone decides to call them scum. i'm not sure where else it'd be useful to get towncredit except to discredit any pushes.

2. if you're talking about the push: i don't think scum normally hard-pushes their partner. from my experience bussing usually occurs when your partner's very likely to get lynched, so you follow along with the vote to get towncred. personally, i would never put too much into a bus just in case someone else backs off and there's potential to lynch someone else. definitely don't think (most) people bus for the sake of towncred, it's usually just the better alternative to protecting partner and then seeming like really obvious scum buddies.

just to be completely clear and prevent any misunderstandings or misrepresentations...

I DO NOT think penguin's vote on sheep was scummy. it's just that i don't believe it's towny either and i don't think it's accurate to say that he could not have been bussing there

[january]

ok responding to gamma now.

just to be clear i'm giving reasoning for my very FIRST read and NOT my current reads.

some of these are based on notes i took but there's a few from memory and those might be slightly tainted by current reads.
anyways:

Dann

- top townread, don't think this needs too much explanation? he led on sheep and he was pretty consistent with high-effort posts and i thought that was towny. wrote that i was paranoid but probably overthinking

banakai

- mostly this, which i'll call the "townslip" interaction. i think i might've re-explained it later but i can't find it atm.

ok read on banakai
all kinda centers around a discussion in d1 i think(?)

Spoiler: quotes

Also, if someone is about to argue that I'm the BS scum buddy in this situation trying to push an alternative. I would counter that by saying the BS vs. RC situation never happens if I'm BS' scum partner and just leave it at that.

Out of curiosity, how would you stop me?

Let's not leave it at that since you brought it up. It happened over the course of 2ish hours - read: quickly. Very likely that you weren't even present before or during the interaction.

yes I agree with penguin please explain this

That's fair. I'd hope in a theoretical scum PT I'd be able to talk to him before hand and maybe dissuade that plan.

But you're right in that I wasn't present for the actual interaction. So, bad defense. I guess I could be the potential BS scum partner here. But uh, I'm not.

it sorta seems to me like all 3 of u guys (PP, Banakai, Dann) all townslipped by assuming maf had daytalk
but of the 3, i felt that banakai was the most... lowkey(?) about the assumption of daytalk
i think if he was mafia there he'd either try to make the "townslip" more obvious by explicitly mentioning daytalk, but instead he just says "yeah answer PP's question"

pyrrha

- purely based on first 150-ish posts i marked her as maf, just felt like she was making reads too fast and too confident for town. townread her for 246 bc i didn't think scum would stick their neck out for partner that much. and i didn't think she was lying about having meta, probably just misread the meta.

i would have placed pyrrha higher except
1. i feel annoyed for psyche just reading pyrrha's tunnel on him
2. i feel like there's been some places where it just seems to me that pyrrha is just following dann (i.e. 1020)

penguin

- slight townread bc of the "townslip" interaction (which is why i put him higher than BS). dann's tr on him may have also influenced this a little bit.

bs

- "town (weird start but seems towny? or... just crazy?)" <- lol that's what i wrote, i basically townread him for the weird start bc i didn't think maf would be nearly confident enough to

intentionally

be scummy at daystart

and then gamma was just fully null

[january]

Spoiler: long quote sorry

yeeeeeeeeeeet

No one is tr your enthusiasm for your blatant attempt at trying to mislynching me. If I wasn’t already sl you, I’d be convinced you had no clue how to scumhunt but then I wouldn’t want to get into trouble for insulting your

intelligence

ability to play mafia properly.

Ethos’ spamming up the thread with multiple posts of blatantly faked enthusiasm, really clinches it for me. Out of nowhere, he decides to drive a mislynch on me as a extremely thinly veiled OMGUS. I don’t know whether to be amused or smdh that he seriously thinks everyone has suddenly gotten lobotomies.

But I’ll humour him anyway just for the lulz.

Okay @Ethos, what exactly do you find scummy about my play and be forewarned, I refuse to accept “YEET” as a valid answer.

Your entire ISO is devoid of actually doing anything but trying to seem busy...

(1) Asking questions when the answers are readily available

,

(2) saying something is important but not really pressing it or doing anything with it (299)

,

(3) voting Psyche but not engaging with him at all

, not really pushing anyone really...even your catchup was a regurgitation of the game state and not really your stances.

(4) What are they by the way?

You said you would be willing to lynch 3 players but didn't actually take the time to say who they were.

And, sorry - why are you voting Psyche again? And, I swear to god, if you say opportunistic in your answer I am going to GIFslap you so hard.

1: Citation needed.

2: are you really suggesting that I had no purpose with that? Or that perhaps the answer given didn't do anything to progress where I was going? Weak point.

3: I really thought the reason I voted pine was pretty self-explanatory

4: what are yours? I remember a readlist with no explanation and some side commentary but.. that's about it

penguin can be scum with pyrrha tbh

I still think you’re scum here fr but I really want to see if any towngames actually exist where you are seriously this bad at mafia. Probably more scum flailing than dumb town but eh?

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=80259&start=100

Oh Lol, this explains so much. I think I’m townlocking Penguin and never unvoting Ethos until he’s flipped.

Lmao @ Penguin. Okay Banaki, I’ll let it go. It’s just that I find meta really helpful when I haven’t played with someone before.

If Ethos flips town here, I will be legit shocked. Penguin nailed it, he isn’t doing any actual sorting. He acts like he’s invested but his reads are basically empty with very little logical reasoning for pretty much anything.

@Banaki, sure it’s “dumb” and I’m sure he is well aware of it. He is making this out of left field nonsense push on me out of basic desperation to get tr for hard pushing anyone, whether he has any actual reason to do it is apparently besides the point. He’s counting on someone tr him for this, based on just that: it being so unbelievably dumb.

Your entire ISO is devoid of actually doing anything but trying to seem busy...

(1) Asking questions when the answers are readily available

,

(2) saying something is important but not really pressing it or doing anything with it (299)

,

(3) voting Psyche but not engaging with him at all

, not really pushing anyone really...even your catchup was a regurgitation of the game state and not really your stances.

(4) What are they by the way?

You said you would be willing to lynch 3 players but didn't actually take the time to say who they were.

And, sorry - why are you voting Psyche again? And, I swear to god, if you say opportunistic in your answer I am going to GIFslap you so hard.

1: Citation needed.

2: are you really suggesting that I had no purpose with that? Or that perhaps the answer given didn't do anything to progress where I was going? Weak point.

3: I really thought the reason I voted pine was pretty self-explanatory

4: what are yours? I remember a readlist with no explanation and some side commentary but.. that's about it

penguin can be scum with pyrrha tbh

This 100% reads like a scum post. Town rarely reacts this way. Town asks why do you think this? Here is why I did ___. Scum otoh hands just deflects and turns it on the accuser. How dare you express even the mildest suspicion me for my uberscummy play? You obviously have to be scum. If I AtE loud and long enough, maybe you actually might be fooled into actually believe I mean anything that I’m saying.

eth0s, can you expand on why you think Pyrrha is scum?

I’m not really seeing it off that one post you quoted

I would really love to know that too. What is abundantly clear to me is that he views me as both a threat to him and he’s trying to push my mislynch to save himself.

His push on me is 100% a scum push. Not even a single iota of any attempt to correctly sort me or re-evaluate anything. I could post my role pm and he would still find a way to try to convince all of you that you’re colourblind.

A couple things really obvious from these posts:
- Pyrra suggests in 714 that her push of the eth0s lynch was primarily a matter of poe. This is clearly false.

No one

D1 was more confident that eth0s was scum than pyrra. Absolutely no one.

- Pyrra says that she'd be absolutely

shocked

if eth0s ends up flipping town. Does Pyrra's D2 posts provide any evidence of

shock

?? Like, the actual emotion? There's no clue of it at all. Instead, we see the evidence of the exact opposite: a muted reaction in the short term, and increased self-assurance, increased confidence in her grasp of the current gamestate in the long term.

I'm not saying that there should have been some big mea culpa; I can appreciate that my own has seemed awkward and overwrought. What I am saying is that there's no evidence even

implicitly

of the sort of emotional impact you'd expect from the eth0s mislynch given pyrra's D1 iso. This is

in addition to

her clear misrepresentation today of her mindset surrounding eth0s yesterday.

We're left with two possibilities. The first is that Pyrra, along with having a

far

more tenuous grasp of the gamestate than she thinks she has, has a very powerful self-serving bias that leaves her not just to interpret but to

remember

the past in the way that flatters her most. The other is that she's playing a muscular scumgame ITT, performing towniness with all these posts seeming to sort and lynch scum while actually trying to orchestrate mislynches.

In either situation, ego plays a big part in explaining why Pyrra's playing the way she's chosen to - whether she's just that confident in her townplay that she shrugs off any mistakes, or sure enough of herself that she's deigned to play for the center of attention as scum. The personality read is easy. I still don't know a reliable way to convert that into an alliance sort.

it was really long but this felt very uh... nuanced lol
analysis of pyrrha's play, and i think the emotions thing was something i didn't notice but is a really good point. still considers pyrrha as town and gives some justification to explain her play but also considers possibility of scum

and honestly i think a lot of people missed it in favor of responding to the short semi-argumentative posts right after, which i don't really blame them for. that's what i meant about not liking the "how" of delivery that much. but i genuinely (completely unbiased!) think psyche would have never made this post as maf

[january]

oh yeah and the post is kinda a personality read which i think is what pyrrha responded to later (iirc) so i think the actual content of it got missed

[january]

oh actually *edit on 1667*
i felt like gamma made a read on dann a little too fas. they gave dann as a townread by post 99 and it just felt a little early to be sorting. maybe it was just me and my read method but i'd have been wary of dann at that point just for being too active (maybe?). not saying u should have scumread dann obviously but just felt too fast and lacking in progression

[january]

january I am somewhat paranoid about your slot and honestly it's because you don't really have any scum reads

that's fair but i usually never have scumreads, only townreads and non-townreads

and i do think everyone HAS had a few towny posts which is kinda why im struggling

but....
here's my penguin case (sorry it's long, tldr is at the bottom)

Spoiler:

spends first 20-ish posts with one-liners (mostly NAI at this point, just a different style of play)

I townread you, Dann.

this is the first read he has and it's not really justified or explained. that'd be fine normally especially since dann WAS towny. but i still feel like up to this point penguin's been extremely low-energy
same applies past this point too, but i think the general thing that stands out to me is penguin's reactive-ness. majority of posts are like 1 or 2 sentences reaction to other people's posts or gifs (love the gifs btw, just don't think they're particularly towny)

Last Night Tomorrow

i feel like penguin's reads this game lacked reasoning behind them. wasn't sure if this was just a habit of play, or an actual scum play. i compared it to the game pyrrha mentioned (viewtopic.php?f=56&t=78060) and i think he actually does give justifications for why he's trying to lynch people in that game.
basically: penguin's reads are phrased as very strong reads but i feel like if town!penguin genuinely wanted a scumread to be lynched, he'd be giving reasons and actually trying to convince people

from what i can tell, 433 is the only real reasoning that penguin has made for a read/lynch

oh and i realize that my read on eth0s is quite different than the majority of people's read, but i think penguin's push on him can be read as pushing a scummy player without genuinely attempting to classify them. the stuff he used as reasoning for the FOS were things like "eth0s didn't read and asked a question i already answered" (426) which generally might appear scummy but isn't really a reason to sort someone as scum.
essentially: eth0s was lynchbait (sry) and i don't think penguin was un-confident enough on that push to be town

if you don't agree w that last paragraph its ok i kinda disagree with myself a little. but tell me what you think on the rest pls.

tldr; penguin isn't genuinely trying to convince people to vote his scumreads. i think this is unusual since he's presenting his reads as strong reads. as town with strong reads he'd be trying to convince people more

edited some dumb formatting thing and the tldr that was written in gibberish

apologies if it's somewhat incoherent, was kinda just noting things as i read so the thought progression kinda... progresses throughout the post

isn't this my post...

[january]

ok but?

you were saying earlier that I had "no reason" to be voting penguin. and when i give u a reason then u say u disagree with it. but u have to admit... i DID have a reason whether u disagree with it or not

[january]

aren’t you trying to get towncredit right now lol

This doesn’t look townie. You haven’t come up with even a single reason why he’s scum. Banaki has terribad reason for sr me otoh but fhpov, it actually looks like reasons. You’re just shading Penguin with no basis whatsoever.

ok do you at least take this back then

[january]

please can you please READ the context of what i said. please.

gamma asked me why i said eth0s was obvtown

and i responded with "i'll explain why i thought eth0s was obvtown"

and here it is rn. thanks for the segue.

-nuanced and detailed attempts to sort (lots of info and thought)

Spoiler: re-read

BS - First person to really break away from RVS and it was in his first two posts. Suggests lynching and sheeping RC if he greenflips.

RC - Clearly agitated by BS, probably NAI as a whole and someone later mentions it is within RC meta to be upset when targetted like he was. I have also dealt with this firsthand but am still not convinced that it can be found as AI.

Pine - Immediately jumps on BS for his suggestion against RC. Could be opportunistic.

Pyrrha -

I think we should lynch RC, if he flips town, we should hard sheep him.

I just finished a game with RC where scum wanted him dead. Policy lynching good scum players will just result in scum gamethrowing, so a really terrible idea, always.

not really sure what this means. Elaborate?

BS - 27 really lays on the "scummy player" flavor more than I have noticed from him in the past. Page 2 as a whole is where I get the sense that he thinks his logic is townie regardless of alignment.

24 is a really confusing post

yeah

Gamma - "You see you don’t BoP PL a player on D1, you do it D3 when they haven’t led a lynch on scum yet" this makes quite a lot of sense and even if it's his own slot he's talking about I still like the post.

Dannflor - 82 is good. I think it eliminates the idea of a BS/dann team. It could be very wolfy but I think it's too early to tell, so I will take it at face value as town.

Pyrrha - 89 and 91 read very awkwardly. And a simple unvote feels forced, or like she did it out of fear/pressure from dann? 94 feels like beating around the bush and doesn't do anything to answer why she is sticking out an RVS vote while having a legit FoS on BS. 96 feels out of place.

Wait a second.

Forest fires create CO₂

CO₂ destroys the ozone layer

The ozone layer preserves the arctic regions

The arctic regions are where penguins live

UNVOTE:

His power is for the good of tree-kind this game. Or he's one sick and twisted penguin.

Time will tell.

You aren’t by any chance a Jingle alt, right?

I am not a Jingle alt

-- on a side note I think that dannflor should be the one held to any sort of BoP PL if that's what it comes down to. Even if that happens I would like to follow Gamma's rule of thumb --

On a more serious note I get what BS was saying. I thought the logic was sound although I was uninterested in joining him. Dannflor does make me realize that the logic wasnt great. But I'm not sure if that's something BS was considering. I kinda think he truly believed his own logic regardless of his alignment

Gamma was right, the logic of lynching RC on D1 without even a single cause for suspicion, really made very little sense. I don’t know if he’s scum though. His reaction to it isn’t pinging me but the thing is he self-voted and put himself at L-1, so if he’s scum and that lynch would have gone through, it would look great for RC, so I’m thinking bad town over scum rn. I wish RC hadn’t have replaced out, because then we would know if BS continues to hardpush for this. If he did, it would be more than reasonable to assume he was probable scum. So now, we’ll never get to find that out.

I think given BS behavior up until replacement it's pretty safe to assume he was going to push RC as long as he felt the lynch possible

-- Pyrrha's page 5 continues to feel overly cautious --

sheep - 117 essentially restates what Gamma said in a roundabout way, regarding BS. But also essentially restates what I said regarding the genuinity of BS logic. However he does come to conclude BS as town as a result, which I don't think either I or Gamma explicitly did. On the whole I don't really understand or agree with sheep's logic on page 5. I think something is lost in translation between sheep and pyrra here and kind of makes the discussion feel useless.

BS - in 131 "I didn't vote, because I wanted to discuss whether lynching RC is good idea day 1, rather than directly pushing his lynch." I actually start second guessing my assumption that he thought the logic was genuine. If he really thought it was a good move I think he would have voted him. I somehow missed the fact that BS self-voted and never voted RC. I need to think about this slot more now. Continues to lay on the scummy flavor in an awkward way in 139 and 141.

bs not having wolfed on this site reinforces my read on how confident and unreserved he opened considering this a pretty respectable playerlist

This seems like a pretty genuine thought

linking this very game as his scum game, self-voting to L-1, and his general tone read rather forced to me. It's hard for me to see townie motivation for those things.

meh agree to disagree
i find that this type of erratic behavior is generally too rash to be w shrug

The main reason I disagree with his behavior here as making him town is he's sort of a walking contradiction. "Let's PL RC because town paranoia could get him (mis)lynched at a more pivotal point in time if we don't" yet he is creating a bunch of paranoia over his own slot by acting intentionally scummy, which in turn sets himself up to be lynched over paranoia. I think town!him would consider how a potential mislynch while also cementing himself as a liability is a bad way to handle D1.

what i meant was that if i was a wolf theres no way i'd make a rash decision in calling to lynch rc for no game-specific reason off the bat

There’s the fact he didn’t vote there though. I feel like he

would

have voted RC had he gotten support. That part seems wolfy to me.

i disagree but i like this read from you

@sheep

why do you disagree with this?

Banakai - 169 to 172: Weird gut feelings about 169 and 170. They both feel manufactured at a glance. 171 I disagree with actually. I think as town in RC's position I would not be as concerned as I would as scum. At least if I read Blatant's early content as genuinely believing the logic to be sound (like I did) then I would just allow the lynch to go through as I will have a strong towny voice for the rest of the game. Or make the scum waste a prime on a stump. Yes it's annoying to be ML'ed like that but you can still contribute to the game.
However if I'm scum in RC's position and still read BS the same way then I would be panicking because town being in agreement with BS could simply take me out of the game early and severely hurt my team's chance at winning.
It's hard to say how this applies to RC though as he undoubtedly plays this game in a different way than I do. I guess knowing how RC would read blatant scum would be the only real way to gain any real AI intel on him.
172: "Blatant scum would be my biggest vote RN but I won't vote and leave him 1 away from death. -- also he's potentially just one of those trolly players, which I would normally like to lynch anyway (but in this game if we lynch him and hes town he sticks around)" This assumes BS to continue "trolling" after death which I heavily do not agree with.

Penguin -

Also, if someone is about to argue that I'm the BS scum buddy in this situation trying to push an alternative. I would counter that by saying the BS vs. RC situation never happens if I'm BS' scum partner and just leave it at that.

Let's not leave it at that since you brought it up. It happened over the course of 2ish hours - read: quickly. Very likely that you weren't even present before or during the interaction.

This is a hot take. I believe this also eliminates the possibility of a PP/dann team?

Banakai - 185 is good at face value but I will want to revisit it later

I mean you didn't talk about why you found anyone else above null - and it's pretty easy to pick up on - so, no I don't really feel like it.

I find it laughable that you and pyrrha have such strong reads right now. Two slots haven't even generated any content and one is just creating noise.

Sheep being dann's lynch of choice and Penguin being skeptical of dann makes me feel a little weird about this interaction as a whole. I can't put my finger on my feelings yet.

genuinely believes that everything he's been doing is protown

Yeah uh sheep you kinda have been contradicted by the person you are defending

me too though? although I wouldn't call it defending in my case as I haven't TR'ed BS

-and this. but i realize now that ofc u wouldn't be able to sort sheep interactions on d1.

@sheep

what i meant was that if i was a wolf theres no way i'd make a rash decision in calling to lynch rc for no game-specific reason off the bat

There’s the fact he didn’t vote there though. I feel like he

would

have voted RC had he gotten support. That part seems wolfy to me.

i disagree but i like this read from you

@sheep

why do you disagree with this?

I want this question to stand out because I think the answer is important.

[january]

there's more than that ^ but i guess pyrrha is right that it's not that important.

maybe i had some hindsight bias now that i think about it

still definitely don't think lynching him d1 made any sense and i feel like a big part of it was just that he pushed on pyrrha and then people pushed back on him lol. it's like an omgus except collectively (lol)

[january]

preferably not me after i’ve towntold a lot

and yes i would like to lynch penguin but i know i’m not confident on that

(no that’s not scum setting up for a mislynch, i seriously don’t feel confident in any of my reads. i just have a gut read that banakai isn’t scum and penguin reads as scummier than me)

You really seem to have a lack of conviction here
You seem to be super doubtful of your scumreads and you are giving reasons that aren’t very strong
This kinda doesn’t mesh with the confident persons you have been putting forward imo

That’s precisely why I referenced your post re: Penguin as an example, because at the time you made it, it was clearly an accurate read on him and definitely non-agenay.

So, that’s what’s also concerning me about january, I really cannot tell whether she has conviction on Penguin being scum or not. Problem for me is Banaki isn’t playing. If I could clear him, it would make this a lot easier. Her preferring Pengin over Banaki is probably what concerns me the most because why would we want to lynch an active player who is very clearly sortable over one who refuses to help us correctly read him? So, that is the most concerning part of this for me. She is saying me and Dann are her strongest tr, so why is she so opposed to Banaki being lynched here? It’s very clear that whatever he is, he is dangerous to have in LYLO, so why isn’t she acknowledging this?

Like if we lynch january today and game doesn’t end, I am 100% powerlynching Banaki and I’m also not happy that Penguin would prefer BS over Banaki but at least he gave a valid albeit not the best reason for that.

I dunno, I’m still torn between january and Banaki. Her case on him doesn’t really make sense but is it scum indicative or not? I still can’t tell.

but why would scum!january try to lynch someone other than banakai here? why not just go along with the lynch and then get someone else lynched tomorrow? scum!january would be sticking out their neck completely unnecessarily

and the case does make sense to me lol!

[january]

pyyrha stop being preemptively cocky about "figuring out" I'm scum

Ooh, for someone who gave up on playing, is suddenly tilted when I call him out on his bs.

We’ll find that out when I’m ultimately proven right, won’t we?

confidence is cool and all but i really do not understand how it doesn't bother you at all to be wrong on a read.

and sometimes confidence clouds your reads and makes you ignore evidence against you if its inconvenient

psyche scumread you for overconfidence yesterday. although i don't scumread you i do think you're overconfident (in general) and i wish you didn't go from "i'm confident player A is the last scum to i'm confident player B is the last scum"

and the more you push on banakai like this makes me want to empathy-defend him lol

[january]

interactions reads are really subject to a lot of wifom in any game where there's a mafchat

so i'd rather just read everyone individually and if it happens to line up with an interaction read then even better

[january]

wrt BS - i had something copy and pasted but i accidentally lost it whoops
really have no idea how confident i am on penguin, so whatever % unsure-ness on him is probably on BS

thought bs was towny at game start bc maf probably wouldn't be so confident to literally claim maf for half a game. but hes intentionally trying to create that meta and he'd probably be doing the same thing as scum or town - he's intentionally making himself unreadable i guess?

wary of him for keeping on the "claim scum" thing for way too long, but i think he'd be more likely to do that as town so

i hope hes town? that way my read is right? but at the same time i hope he's scum bc he's easier to lynch (lol)

[january]

ya sorry was responding

but that's super fencesit-y so i'll say town for now

[january]

i have a somewhat similar mentality as u on banakai although maybe a little more confident on it flipping town?

i've wasted too much energy fighting the lynch and at this point it might just make me feel better to confidently say "I told you so" afterwards.
i do wish that banakai put more effort in so that it's not just gonna be "well he was scummy" tomorrow with no discussion bc he never tried to fight the lynch

[january]

anyways

very interested for your reasoning of voting me bc i was quite a bit surprised by that

[january]

will respond in a bit but does tmi stand for something other than “too much information”? i’m not what u mean by TRing someone as too much info

[january]

Am I allowed to vote Banakai yet
Would still kinda prefer Jan but I also like the reasons for Banakai

Well, one of them is probably scum, so if game doesn’t end with one flip, we lynch the other. I obviously prefer Banaki first.

if this is really how you’re going to play then i’d rather be flipped first so you listen to me. banakai’s saying the same thing but i think his read’s wrong

i really think you’re all just completely oblivious and if it takes my flip to wake you up then that’s fine lol

[january]

I did feel that you coming into Psyche's slot were doing exactly what a scum!january would need to do to win the game however. Like you come in with one hard scum read on Gamma, basically just sheeping me, and then when Gamma turns out to be an IC you kinda flounder for a while and from an outside perspective it felt to me like you were panicking a little bit. The jump to challenging the Penguin town reads instead of say, Blatant Scum, who was next in line on your reads list seemed off to me, like you needed to break up the consensus town reads first instead of going for the lower hanging lynch bait in order to win. There's also the fact that you're paranoid of me at first, and then when I express suspicions of you, you completely drop that paranoia which sorta read like a desperate attempt to pocket me?

responding to most of this from memory rn
i don't think i sheeped you... i might have been unconsciously affected by your reads but i'm pretty sure i came to the conclusions on my own? i think my reasoning was pretty original and i think 1667 explains most of it? if anything, the read that was affected by you was probably the penguin read (explained in that post too)

assuming IC means clear or something like that? if so, not sure where i seemed panicky. it took me a while to realize that gamma had claimed (only noticed it after pyrrha quoted the gamma - BS dousing interaction thing iirc) honestly, i don't see any reason i would panic about that as scum either. i think i'd be happy that the clear was forced or pushed to claim

like i said b4 i had put gamma way at the bottom so i hadn't really put too much consideration between BS and penguin. but yeah i do have a habit of challenging consensus reads as both town and maf (this game re: both the Penguin and Banakai reads).
best feeling is when everyone has a consensus read on someone and you're the only one who's right (: that's not really why i do it) but back at my home site there was a player who'd always challenge other peoples reads before making their own and their playstyle rubbed off on me i guess

i feel like it'd make more sense for me as scum to go for the lower lynch bait? makes the most sense to me at least not to stand out way too much with the reads when scum

i don't think the timing is right about the last bit? when i said i was paranoid of u i was talking about a d1 read i think? one of the in-progress working reads when i started reading the game but decided to use occam's (or whatever its called- the "simplest answer is most likely right" thing) i don't remember my read on u ever changing since like... before d3 started

[january]

will respond in a bit but does tmi stand for something other than “too much information”? i’m not what u mean by TRing someone as too much info

Meaning, I don't think your reasoning for Banakai!town is enough to justify the strength of read you seem to have on him. So that leads me to believe that maybe you have that read because you know his alignment.

ohhhh... that's what tmi means here. i thought it meant i was

giving

too much info but that makes a lot more sense

honestly i think that's the weakest part of my play this game. the problem was that once i got into the penguin read a few people just started pushing on me and i felt like i couldn't mention another FoS without getting called even more scummy for "trying to back out of a tunnel after realizing nobody would support it" or something like that. so i just... don't want banakai to be maf so i'm making myself pretty confident that he's not

but i don't think banakai has a higher scum potential than like
penguin or BS... or even pyrrha at this point

i know that there's a slight possibility that i'm embarrasing myself by hard defending scum but i think it's unlikely enough that i'm doing it

but the strongest argument i have against this is:
what benefit do i get from protecting banakai if i'm scum here? i'm honestly not gonna get townread if he flips town anyways so the whiteknighting (is that the right term) has literally no positive payoff for scum!january

[january]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: january

Town!january doesn’t ask to be flipped first.

neither does scum!january

oh wait one of us is wrong and it isn't me

[january]

will respond in a bit but does tmi stand for something other than “too much information”? i’m not what u mean by TRing someone as too much info

Meaning, I don't think your reasoning for Banakai!town is enough to justify the strength of read you seem to have on him. So that leads me to believe that maybe you have that read because you know his alignment.

Yeah, she keeps hard defending Banaki and throwing

shade at everyone else.

Maybe I’m wrong and january is the scum and Banaki really is just horribly bad town? These recent posts just don’t make sense coming from january town.

lol stop misrepping i'm sure all 1.5 people ive said are possible scum is "everyone else" right

[january]

@january if I’m scum here, I don’t unvote you and switch to Banaki. You’re making this extremely difficult for me to persuade Dann into lynching Banaki over you. :/

where did i call you scum what

[january]

Town!january doesn’t ask to be flipped first.

also: remember when you said this about banakai

well we can't both be maf so you're gonna have to rethink that

[january]

also since pyrrha really wants me to get lynched accidentally

I'm at L-1 right now

[january]

The obvious “benefit” is you’re TMIing him town and you wanting to be flipped first isn’t exactly giving me confidence that it isn’t. If you’re scum here who knows he’s town,

why wouldn’t you insist on being flipped first?

because you know he’s town and you’re getting lynched after? Your response just doesn’t make sense if you’re town.

uh because that would make me lose.....
why would i want to be lynched today instead of taking my chances tomorrow?
Your logic just doesn't make sense if you're logical.

[january]

oops i was going to lynch january guess i'll wait

[january]

it is really hard to objectively look at slots when Pyrrha swings her vote every time someone implies there’s a chance she could be scum

Like I think she’s never scum here

But also it makes it hard to read the game because I’m not sure which parts are a genuine read

i’ve noticed and i’ve avoided triggering this reaction on accident

i have no idea why i got swung on again? i didn’t even call her maf this time

[january]

oops i was going to lynch january guess i'll wait

You’re not joking? You were seriously planning to self-hammer? Why? Why would you do that? You don’t KNOW Banaki’s alignment if you’re town, so why fall on your sword for him?

???

i know its really hard to read sarcasm over the internets but you don't really believe i meant this do you...

[january]

well before one of u hammer happy maniacs hammers me

i feel like my reads have been completely disregarded this game and any contributions i've made, for example, to sort banakai or penguin has just been labelled as scummy

to make it clear, when i said i wanted to be flipped before banakai, it was mostly out of frustration that all my (admittedly contrarian) reads weren't really considered and were just labeled as scummy by the majority of people (thanks to dann for trying to read it though)

i feel like it might just be my massive lack of ability to communicate my opinions, but they seemed coherent and clear to me and i'm honestly not sure why they were shut down so quickly. i admit i might be wrong about penguin and some of the push was just pushback... for the pushback.. on my read. like i felt like people were resisting my scumread for the wrong reasons so i just felt the need to sound confident on that?

but i still do stand by my banakai read. i think you're all scumreading him for lack of content. maybe u think i'm willing to "fall on my sword" defending him but i'm pretty sure if i was any of you i'd townread me for doing that. so i'm a bit surprised i somehow got scumread for defending him instead?

but if i'm going first i hope that you guys plan to listen to me on banakai tomorrow. and consider someone else.

[january]

just a second i feel the need to respond to one of gamma's posts

if i'm gonna get lynched i can't really say this ever again without sounding arrogant or bitter or... whatever

so

[january]

I agreed with what you said on the matter: it looked like Jan was playing the way scum should play coming in. My own personal spin on that is the fact I think she was given pointers in the scum PT about what to press, which led to some rather incongruous looking thought processes.

uh no offense but that's pretty massive confirmation bias and i hope you look back on this and see why that literally doesn't make sense

first: i read the game on my own and made some of those reads before even getting my role PM, so some of those "bad reads" are completely unaffected by my alignment and maybe just... me.

second: what you're suggesting is that even though sheep didn't know if psyche was getting replaced, or who he was getting replaced by, sheep left a full roadmap of what reads to have and what reads not to have in the maf PT. from what i'm aware of, most players don't do that because it comes off as control-freaky and, well, a waste of time.

third: i'd like to think i'm quite self-aware as a player and i wouldn't be trying to force reads that i knew would sound scummy just because a dead scumpartner left a last-will of what kind of reads to make. kinda goes with #2 but i would hope that i'd never be stuck with a maf partner who'd force me to pretend to have particular reads.

it's cool that you scumread me for the bad reads and all but you're reaching here and i hope you're aware of that

[january]

last ego post and then i'll answer (i might kinda be avoiding your question bc i honestly don't know what i think rn)

pyrrha - i didn't misrep you and i'm pretty sure dann didn't either. if anything it might have been a misunderstanding? but i do believe a lot of our comments on you are mostly true.

but you said this

@january

if I’m scum here,

I don’t unvote you and switch to Banaki. You’re making this extremely difficult for me to persuade Dann into lynching Banaki over you. :/

which suggests that you think i'm calling you scum?
and i don't recall ever saying or thinking that in any recent posts

[january]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: january

Town!january doesn’t ask to be flipped first.

And I also expect a fucking apology for your continual discrediting of my reasoning for making reads.

me too! can u apologize to me for misrepping me and saying that i

haven’t come up with even a single reason why [Penguin] is scum... no basis whatsoever.

ok im done

[january]

jk not done

Otoh, it’s not at all suspicious if she instead were to say, “I refuse to vote Banaki, even to self-pres”, because that could even be seen as town indicative but to actually say, she should be flipped before someone no matter how confident she may be on their alignment, she can’t actually KNOW it unless she’s scum and that’s WHY I voted her but stop pushing her wrongheaded

beliefs about me,

especially when I clearly laid it out for you in black and white, EXACTLY what my reasoning was.

well first of all that's what i thought i said? or implied? or something?

second of all this setup is quite different than traditional setups bc me flipping myself doesn't mean i'm removing myself from the game. it means that i can actually make reads without worrying about you calling me scum for making reads you don't agree with (that's a collective "you" - not targeted at one person specifically).

and right here in bold you said you voted me so that i would stop holding some (idk what?) belief about you. so did you think i scumread you?

can you answer this bc it really sounds to me like you're saying you voted me for having a read on you (which i think you also misunderstood)

[january]

If you’re wrong on me (hint: you are) and you think Banakai is town, then who is scum?

uhh PoE says its BS
definitely don't think it's possible that dann is maf here and i'm pretty sure pyrrha is maf too

[january]

If you’re wrong on me (hint: you are) and you think Banakai is town, then who is scum?

uhh PoE says its BS
definitely don't think it's possible that dann is maf here and i'm pretty sure pyrrha is town too

oh oops thats embarassing
EBWOP

[january]

at this point i'm like
55% penguin 35% BS and 10% paranoid

[january]

it makes me happy that you're interacting with me rn so i gave you some townpoints

and i guess there's some "majority's probably right" influence and i'm extra un-confident because everyone agrees that i'm wrong

but i still dunno what exactly you've done to make yourself so supertown that i get scumread for pushing on you

[january]

but i still dunno what exactly you've done to make yourself so supertown that i get scumread for pushing on you

if i am lynched i will force you all to answer this question tomorrow

so if you don't want to/don't know how to answer this question then you should not lynch me

just kidding

mostly

[january]

when did your read on banakai change?

don't remember you ever indicating you townread him

[january]

but i still dunno what exactly you've done to make yourself so supertown that i get scumread for pushing on you

if i am lynched i will force you all to answer this question tomorrow

so if you don't want to/don't know how to answer this question then you should not lynch me

just kidding

mostly

Already answered...

meta is a vague answer. i want an uncomfortable level of specific-ness.
and i want one of

them

to answer

[january]

ya i mostly meant everyone else

[january]

i would be willing to lynch BS but

@penguin can you answer this

when did your read on banakai change?
don't remember you ever indicating you townread him

[january]

feel like being contrarian today

well its actually a lot harder to show gamethrowing in this setup which is kinda funny

theoretically if someone thinks they have good reads but they're considered super scummy it's in their best interest to lynch themselves

so hey we don't call this gamethrowing we just call it

annoying

(:

[january]

Also, BS pretending to fake CC Gamma is kind of a strange thing for scum to do.

this part is most likely NAI, pretty sure it was 100% a joke claim and it was just something to fit along with his meta

In most games I’ve been in, scum hard defending a slot to the extent sheep did and more significantly - never walked back on - usually winds up being town. In the MU game I was in, scum hard defended a player we mislynched who he whiteknighted.

So even if sheep initially hard defending BS didn’t look good, his not walking it back later does.

this might be true but i usually don't think u should put too much stock in these types of reads cuz it's not too hard to force if scum is intentional about it

[january]

Like both are being antitown but which one is scum?

one's antitown just based on lack of contribution

the other is actively scummy

i'm going to say it makes a lot more sense for the active scummy one to be maf

[january]

i think misread penguin out of annoyance @ everyone's townread on him

he's towntold a bit so i'll back off but you guys still honestly should not have townread him so easily based on d1 and d2

VOTE: BS

L-1

[january]

i hope this is right

[january]

Good job all. Sorry for the little spat, jan.

gg everyone

sorry for pushing on u so much... i have a bad habit of tunneling town in order to read them

[january]

Yeah Plot, you're totally the worst for modding.

[january]

sry for leaving
i only saw suffering in everyone's future if i had stayed
also wow plot you sure know how to mod

thanks for letting me steal your spot
seriously do think u towntold a ton and somehow nobody saw it

[january]

Only thing surprised me, is that sheep never attempted to distance BS, when he was no longer in jeopardy.

hence my argument against relying on interaction/partner reads

Unfortunately town say the same garbage too

If they’re actually trying to push you out of the game as a pl and not because you’ve actually done anything to warrant it, I’d lean scum on that over town.

BS was maf this time but he probably would have acted pretty similar as town lol
it's just him trying to make meta consistent and unreadable

[january]

fun playing with y'all & thanks for the game plot and the worst!!