Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[fwogcarf]

do you even lift bro

[fwogcarf]

Also I know this dude so
VOTE: fwog

i cannot wait to solve the game day 1

[fwogcarf]

wait what

each day phase is 10 days long

[fwogcarf]

oh

i guess i misread it then

is there like a votecount you can check or no

[fwogcarf]

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

[fwogcarf]

im gonna make a public note that i will be looking for distancing/socializing between a certain two people

going to help readmaking imo

[fwogcarf]

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

[fwogcarf]

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

One's formatted like this one (town of salem forums) and one's formatted completly different (mafia universe)

rvs is fun but i havent done it in a 9er because i assume that most noobs will want to get straight to the point instead of joking around to try and earn towncred early

[fwogcarf]

pageget moment

[fwogcarf]

Spoiler:

ok then

i might just shitpost day 1 until actual content comes up

We can make content. What hidden role game experience do you have?

Ive played in 22 games across two forums

I have won four

i dont consider myself a bad player i just get incredibly unlucky

That's fair, are they similar to this forum?

Do you not like RVS (Random Voting Stage) or do you not know about it?

One's formatted like this one (town of salem forums) and one's formatted completly different (mafia universe)

rvs is fun but i havent done it in a 9er because i assume that most noobs will want to get straight to the point instead of joking around to try and earn towncred early

I'm a little confused, how does not participating in RVS get us 'to the point' faster? Or am I misunderstanding your point here? Are you afraid that some new player will drop the hammer accidentally on an RVS wagon?
VOTE: fwogcarf

in my experience playing mafia more often than not people playing in their first game will usually not joke around at the beginning. Doesnt matter what alignment they are, but they want to get their juices flowing early.

I have never seen a noob hammer an rvs vote before lol

we can still do rvs for the funzies

[fwogcarf]

for example i have The Heavy is Dead on repeat

[fwogcarf]

i am now watching a dub of sonic adventure lol

[fwogcarf]

gonna sleep

when i wake up there better be 4 votes on me

[fwogcarf]

im gonna make a public note that i will be looking for distancing/socializing between a certain two people

going to help readmaking imo

Have you played with these two people? :thonk:

Well i meant just two people in general

[fwogcarf]

Ive played 2 games w JV. Idk any1 else

same but with jackson

[fwogcarf]

Vote Count 1.1

fwogcarf (2) ~

JacksonVirgo, Tuxedo Mask,

JacksonVirgo (2) ~

Micc, Petrichorus,

amercelo (1) ~

72offsuit,

Petrichorus (1) ~

bv310,

72offsuit (1) ~

Gypyx,

Not voting (2) ~

fwogcarf, amercelo,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

you promised ((

VOTE: Tuxedo Mask

[fwogcarf]

my disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined

[fwogcarf]

Ive played 2 games w JV. Idk any1 else

same but with jackson

I am JV tho?

oh lol

[fwogcarf]

owo content

[fwogcarf]

VOTE: Tuxedo mask

I think his vote was pretty bad and the follow up attempts at explaining it aren't great. Of all the things to pick out from fwogcarf so far, I don't see how inconsistency can be the issue to focus on. fwogcarf was pretty clear the whole way that he was spend his time cracking jokes even if he suspected there'd be people on the playerlist who weren't up for that.

I also don't think Tuxedo's framing of his vote as a reaction test quite fits when the read he got off fwogcarf's reaction is neutral. I'd say players in general ignore RVS votes they get more often than giving any kind of reaction, so if Tuxedo's reaction test wasn't prepared for that, its not a very useful reaction test. And also since he's still got the vote there, was it really a reaction test at all?

Okay, let's try again.
fwogcarf has a goofy play style, that's fine. I read that as going no specific way or the other. Him ignoring my vote is consistent with that play style, IMO. So to me, it's neutral. I was hoping the conversation would evolve, as they say in #20 they're going to shit post till there is content. When I prod him for an RVS vote or two explain why he doesn't have one, he gives me the run-around. Saying he's all for it and not giving one, that to me reads inconsistent.

Though maybe I didn't put enough thought into getting ignored. I mean he's once again saying he'll wait for content but doesn't even acknowledge my vote onto him. That's a bit scummy.

As for my vote still being there, I can vote someone I think is acting scummy (even when no one else has acted) while simultaneously hope the vote sparks a reaction. My vote remaining there is because I'm happy with it, and have nowhere else to move it.

In a final attempt at making my POV absolutely clear, he has a jokey playstyle, so jokes to me are neutral. Outside of his playstyle, he mentions waiting for the game to get serious and have content while avoiding making content himself. And again, that's not the jokes, having a meme playstyle is just that a playstyle, but there is a disconnect between what they say and what they do.

i thought your vote was rvs so it didnt deserve a reaction from me. if its serious though then usually i ask what the reason behind it is.

[fwogcarf]

ok that's fine then

[fwogcarf]

hey gypyx how you doing

[fwogcarf]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

[fwogcarf]

how dare you steal my pageget

[fwogcarf]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Yeah, I just like Petri's and Micc's posts right now tonally.

But yeah I also agree we need more content from everyone

[fwogcarf]

if you think no lynching on day 1 is a good idea, you're insane

[fwogcarf]

But I don't wanna tunnel on you, so if other people can start posting that'd be great. I'm very bored in quarantine.

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

And I like Petrichorus's intro.

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

That said, nice to hear some new voices and Gypyx, nice to have you around.

Imo I'm used to quicker games (36/12) so I develop reads early and wagons usually form to lynch someone for info. Think about it this way

No lynch usually means 7/2 -> 6/2 with no information other than rvs votes

Lynching someone actually gives us more info because it reveals some peoples intentions that day. You can catch scum for their votes sometimes

Lynching town means 5/2 with potential pushes off of scum motivated votes

Lynching scum means 6/1 and it can go two ways if this happens. Scum concedes, or we lynch a town for more info as to who's town and who's scum

[fwogcarf]

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

First I'd like to clarify that a wagon does not equal a lynch. I am not advocating we quick lynch someone at random to end day 1. That would be bad.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

Currently, we have a bit of stagnation, which has more to do with activity than anything but would probably help if votes weren't so spread around randomly. Especially since a few players have signaled reads without moving their votes.

this is also a good tonal explanation

[fwogcarf]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Two things wrong here.

1. Almost ALWAYS people in their reads will list themselves as town if they include themselves. Why would you put yourself as null or scum? It wouldn't make any sense.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

[fwogcarf]

is tuxedo on an agenda or smtn

[fwogcarf]

Could you explain?

The amount of questions you're asking is disturbing to me considering that's the only attempt at solving you've done this game

[fwogcarf]

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

While I'm not entirely set on him defending me I see your point here.

[fwogcarf]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

thanks

[fwogcarf]

Oops, forgot.
VOTE: Petrichorus

Pedit:

I like asking questions, they help flesh out the other players in my mind. I think I've been doing that. Is there something I've missed, or have I completely missed your point. To be honest I feel I am trying game solve be interacting with people and attempting to establish groundwork.

What I'm trying to get at here as that you seem very on-edge. Asking questions is fine, it's a good way to help solve a game or get a conversation going. But with the rate you're going at with these along with overexplaining a decent amount of posts, it equals up to something that I don't see as townie.

Using multiple posts to try and move attention to one post is also not a great way to go about at things.

[fwogcarf]

Oops, forgot.
VOTE: Petrichorus

Pedit:

I like asking questions, they help flesh out the other players in my mind. I think I've been doing that. Is there something I've missed, or have I completely missed your point. To be honest I feel I am trying game solve be interacting with people and attempting to establish groundwork.

What I'm trying to get at here as that you seem very on-edge. Asking questions is fine, it's a good way to help solve a game or get a conversation going. But with the rate you're going at with these along with overexplaining a decent amount of posts, it equals up to something that I don't see as townie.

Using multiple posts to try and move attention to one post is also not a great way to go about at things.

Okay, if it's off-putting I can try to slow down. I don't much like talking about myself and my actions in these games if not directly asked because I think that info is generally not helpful. But in this case, I will say, I generally get pretty easily obsessive, and being stuck in quarantine has only made this worse. So even while doing other things I have the ability to check this game anytime all day, leading to a mentality where I'm trying to squeeze blood from a stone.

If this is negatively impacting the game for others, I'm sorry.

Take it one step at a time, it's something I try and do

[fwogcarf]

we are pogging

[fwogcarf]

Define pogging in regards to MS please.

PogChamp

[fwogcarf]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

[fwogcarf]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

Please define 'pocket' in this context. I think I have an idea but I'd rather know for sure. Regarding scum v scum, I agree it would be a grave mistake to make such a rash what-aboutism, but that does not entirely vindicate fwog.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

Pocketing is when a member of the scum team buddies up with a town member. They do this in several ways.
1. Constantly townreading them (sometimes silently, sometimes they're open about it)
2. Defending them when that person needs defending (Although half of the time that person doesn't need "defending")
3. Agreeing with most of their content.

It's a strategy that usually doesn't work because I've played with a lot of people who spot pocketing very easily.

[fwogcarf]

Micc/gypyx is never W/W. I don't see the scumteam getting into an argument over judgement with the way they've been talking.

[fwogcarf]

Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on.

All in all,

Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest

, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed.

When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack

, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with

a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

Hmmm

Will refer back to this if Tux is scum

[fwogcarf]

we are pogging

what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

I have scumread Jackson more times than I have fingers and toes. He does things as town that I would never see anybody!town doing in a game. He's fakeclaimed a ton, most of it resulting in complete failure. I think I only played one scum game with him (don't remember the exact details), and I believe he was much more solvy in that game.

I'll let you know on how his content looks if he posts it later on and full-on meta read him later

Him saying he's inactive is probably NAI.

Spoiler:

Hopefully the quote format doesn't mess up

[fwogcarf]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Disagree. Scum are careful and calculating, they are informed and have an agenda.
Town are in the dark, and more likely to be reckless.

You think scum only plays in one way?

[fwogcarf]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

This sounds like fence sitting.
I think !townfwog would feel like the intent/vibe of my post was pocketing or not. You don;t seem to make a call either way, just leave it open there as if you want someone else to pursue this.

Sure lets go with that.

[fwogcarf]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

I don't think Luciano meant 72's last messages, so you can't use his recent posts as evidence to answer that question.

[fwogcarf]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

well yeah, associative reads work better with flips, but i personally think that not having flips shouldn't be a reason to not make associative reads

and also, from 72's last messages, i'm not really seeing the "carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

I don't think Luciano meant 72's last messages, so you can't use his recent posts as evidence to answer that question.

yes, i'm aware of that, but I pointed out how 72's playstyle evolved, and that it contradicts his read that :
"72 is careless, therefore he's towny"

So given that he's got new content, what would be your final read on him.

[fwogcarf]

I never like doing this but I'm too busy, Town will be netter off with someone that isn't as inactive as I am

@Mod I request replacementerino

F

[fwogcarf]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

i forgot i was voting someone lol UNVOTE: TuxedoMask

Dunno where'd I place my vote now, I'd want to reread the entire game if i want to start tryharding

[fwogcarf]

Vote Count 1.5

Petrichorus (2) ~

Tuxedo Mask, Micc,

72offsuit (2) ~

Gypyx, Petrichorus,

fwogcarf (2) ~

JacksonVirgo, bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

Not voting (2) ~

LuckyLuciano, fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

lol

[fwogcarf]

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

what the flip floppity fuck kinda question is this

[fwogcarf]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

So what is your take on a slot that was inactive, stated a reason for inactivity, then asked to replace out.

Scumlean? Townlean?

You should never take replacing out as AI.

+1

[fwogcarf]

Ngl, I've been waiting for somebody to defend Petri. Part of me wondered if in the case that Petri is scum, his partner would be within the inactives. bv310's post feels like a casual redirection from Petri to fwog. Do you agree?

i dont feel like its casual given that they've used an entire paragraph to explain why I'm suspicious.

Feels like a forced push than casual redirection

[fwogcarf]

hot take there's a scum in Micc/Luciano

[fwogcarf]

Lucky, I don't mean this accusatorily, but you sound defensive. I don't think Micc meant anything (correct me if I'm wrong) and more came off as a teaching moment for newbies like me.

oh god oh fuck he's playing the noob card

somebody call the casino owner

[fwogcarf]

Regarding the last point, are you asking if my appearance to follow louder voices matters? If so, then yes, in that it has been a point of suspicion.

As an insight into me, in Meat Space, myself and several compatriots share effectively the reasoning behind statements and behaviour.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

Happy to. In my MeSp games, myself and a few other vets go into detail behind what we say and how we say it. It's just the meta. In describing why we think what we do it's easier to pull apart fallacies and sniff out scum as it is harder for them to make a valid case without incriminating themselves. As such I'm sure I've shared more on how i operate than the norm here, including times where I have changed my mind. This is not meant to build a case or or against me, just to share how I operate, apologies if it came across as more meaningful.

I did want to see if there would be more content to read before building that wagon. There wasn't and so I did.

I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on flipping.

As it is I've been pulled up on inconsistency, which may indeed be worse. That's the reasoning behind it. Was it a poor decision? Probably.

This implies you know that 72o is town.

Can I just check I'm using the term 'flipping' appropriately? I used the word flipping to describe changing my vote. I struggle to see which part of this implies that I know 72o is town. If you could elaborate I would be more than happy to go into more detail.

I think flipping is regarded by most players as if somebody dies they either flip town or flip scum

[fwogcarf]

I might turn into tunnel mode in a second

brb need to get stuff

[fwogcarf]

Hello Guys, Pleased to join this game. Will read through the thread and post soon.

It's been a while since my last game so super excited to be in this game.

aight bet

[fwogcarf]

@fwog, did you ever find what you were looking for in 239?

No

Tunnel mode is sadly not happening

[fwogcarf]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

Agreed with Micc that this looks scummy.
VOTE: BV

Any other reason on this or are you straight sheeping

[fwogcarf]

Once i get time, I'll provide thoughts on the game overall

maybe even solve the game lol

[fwogcarf]

yeah i need to reread this entire game

ive completely forgotten half of it

[fwogcarf]

12 - Petri starts off with vote on JV without any explanation

22- still my goal

Jackson actually is trying way too hard to townread me
@enomis how would you have read jackson before you subbed into his slot?

also i thought rvs and memephase were the same thing, turns out they're slightly different

nothing worth my interest happened in the next couple of posts

67 and 70 - I like the amount of content Tuxedo provides here. It really does get their PoV across and doesnt seem forced

74 - good reaction by gypyx

78 - Weird question because they disagree with my reads entirely as it seems

82 - Petri doesn't want a lynch??

84 - while quick lynching yes is a bad idea we don't need to use up all 10 days of our deadline. Things will be forgotton and scum slacks to a win

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

gypyx is probably going to be the type of player that gives up easily to pressure

109 - Tuxedo really does seem very nervous and apologizes for something that shouldn't be apologized for. It's a part of mafia to ask questions. It wasn't a response I was expecting

119 - Luciano coming in with a bang and immediately focuses their attention onto Petri. This likely isn't scum motivated

128 - Petri suddenly switches from me onto 72 after i made 122

132 still stands

I've also started to notice just now that Petri is responding with a "Hi, ____" to every post they get pinged to. Probably NAI but i kind of want to look into this overfriendliness that is Petrichorus

135 (Specifically the second response) How things are run in here? Hmmm, something feels off about that phrase.

139 - Scum!Luciano potentially pocketing Town!Tuxedo (just a possibility). This is further proven by 141

144 - This also applies if Luciano flips scum

72 comes in and posts forward-thinking posts. I like that

Normally i wouldn't make a post like 171 because "sure lets go with that" is not the post i make there

194 - Another sudden pivot towards me, this time from BV. I would disagree that I haven't provided content up to 194, there are plenty of other things to look at from me besides a Tux vote that I forgot about

This is where Luciano/Micc mindmeld about BV (213-220)

My lynchpool after this would be BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc)

[fwogcarf]

@Fwog could elaborate on these reads a bit more? I appreciate the insight into your thoughts, but I'm having trouble following them.

BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc) are the names in brackets less scummy than the other two? Or are they the two teams you're thinking of?

Your mentions of Gypx is one post you like and then saying they'll bend easily to pressure. 78 seems fine to me, they can disagree with your reads but still ask you to define them. What places them in your lynch pool?

What about Micc, I don't see them mentioned at all, why lynch them?

Besides pocketing me has Lucaino done anything else you find scummy?

You seem to scum read Petri, is tere any reason they aren't in your scum pool?

Of the four you listed, who would you vote for?

I'll elaborate on only the ones that I feel should be noticed

First off, the issue I have with Jackson is that he only responded to my posts, whether or not they provided content or not. It's why i want enomis to read his own slot because if he was originally in the game, I wouldn't be targeting him for Jackson opening his pocket up for me.

Petri has provided some awkward content, doing something I call vote jumping. It's a tactic I see noobs do when they're trying to play their first games in order to 1. engage with the thread in some way, and 2. Get their vote on the board. I can imagine a new player constantly checking the votecount to try and overanalyze things only specific to voting. In Petri's case, they've managed to sort of outgrow this mindset of voting. They're voting with explanation, but I feel as if they're just trying to generate content. I think they see their own content as towny enough and are trying to get people on the same page, but it's not working.

I'm also seeing potential pockets which i want to look more into as the game progresses to see who in the two players that are involved in said so pocket is the likelier option to be scum. There's only two scum in this game so I don't know if my tactic will work, we'll have to see.

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Myself and Tuxedo/72 don't need to be looked at until tomorrow with the content that we've got here
I have no opinion on the rest of the players

[fwogcarf]

Spoiler: Micc Post 261

I can only think of a single time I was 'super confirmed' on someone being scum day 1, and this isn't it. That said, I do think bv310 is far and away the best lynch right now because I see almost no town equity in his posting, and a ton of scum equity. Add in a low level of engagement and that's exactly what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.

Disregarding engagement since he is most likely getting replaced, would you still scum-read BV if petri was town? Afterall, if petri was town, wouldn't a scum BV usually stay on the wagon?

@Fwog

: I don't really think reading my own slot is going to help as I have no need to analyse jackson when i know his alignment. I basically skipped his post.

Spoiler: Fwog post 266

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Could you explain more about BV? since he is your top scumread. Your whole logic of mind-meld about other people then having BV to be lynched seems super weird.

I was going to explain but then I saw how dead the BV slot is.

This actually messes up my entire list so much holy shit

[fwogcarf]

will catch up soon

[fwogcarf]

Spoiler: 213

VOTE: bv310

Big scum pings from this. for one it's not really a catchup. second, unvoting a scum lean is a move reserved for moving yourself from a small wagon you believe in to a bigger wagon you believe in. bv310's vote change here goes in the opposite direction which is not productive at all.

Two parts to this.
1) What is a "catchup" to you? What about my posting doesn't fit your criteria?
2) Unvoting a scum-lean to vote for a different scum-lean is not in any way sketchy. The fact that there wasn't any momentum on my read means I can watch that spot for later.

Spoiler: 214

You never gave a read on Petri. You RVS voted him, stated you disliked Gypyx and 72o, then disappeared. Literally nowhere in your ISO do you mention Petri outside of the RVS vote. Have you been following the thread without posting? When did the Petri read develop? When did it degrade?

pedit: Amen Micc. I love that we're on the same page here.

In order, 1) Yes. I've been following but lurking because I don't believe posting 20-odd one-liners is needed when there's already others taking that role. I feel comfortable right now looking at interactions and trying to spot inconsistencies.

2) My scum-read on Petri came around post 111. He uses reference to a reputation that we can never check into as a way to try and discount a bad opinion. Even if that's true, it's not an actionable piece of information. To me, that looked suspicious, and was worth keeping my vote parked.

3) Honestly, it kind of didn't, but I was looking at the current in the game and it seemed like no one was interested in continuing there. At that point in the game (page 7 or so), we have plenty of time to look at the opinions after a flip to see if those opinions look better or worse.

Spoiler: 236

hot take there's a scum in Micc/Luciano

I believe this is correct.

Spoiler: 266

I'll elaborate on only the ones that I feel should be noticed

First off, the issue I have with Jackson is that he only responded to my posts, whether or not they provided content or not. It's why i want enomis to read his own slot because if he was originally in the game, I wouldn't be targeting him for Jackson opening his pocket up for me.

Petri has provided some awkward content, doing something I call vote jumping. It's a tactic I see noobs do when they're trying to play their first games in order to 1. engage with the thread in some way, and 2. Get their vote on the board. I can imagine a new player constantly checking the votecount to try and overanalyze things only specific to voting. In Petri's case, they've managed to sort of outgrow this mindset of voting. They're voting with explanation, but I feel as if they're just trying to generate content. I think they see their own content as towny enough and are trying to get people on the same page, but it's not working.

I'm also seeing potential pockets which i want to look more into as the game progresses to see who in the two players that are involved in said so pocket is the likelier option to be scum. There's only two scum in this game so I don't know if my tactic will work, we'll have to see.

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Myself and Tuxedo/72 don't need to be looked at until tomorrow with the content that we've got here
I have no opinion on the rest of the players

So to be clear, your argument on Petri here is mostly a gut read? Saying that his content looks like busy-work to try and seem helpful and towny is an entirely valid one, but it really is just gut at the end of the day.

Your point on the Luc/Micc interaction is valid and worth looking in to. Do you think their suspicion on me is questionable, or is it the immediate agreement that concerns you? Why does lynching me provide better information than one of them?

Spoiler: 271

Could you explain more about BV? since he is your top scumread. Your whole logic of mind-meld about other people then having BV to be lynched seems super weird.

I was going to explain but then I saw how dead the BV slot is.

This actually messes up my entire list so much holy shit[/quote]

Why's that? How does me being less engaged with this game than others affect your other opinions? What was your gut read based on before? Do you think that it's more or less likely that a scummy player would push a vote on a less-active slot?

So, it's worth noting that the exact same thing that kicked off Micc's suspicion of me (a short catch-up post that doesn't show enough content) is the same thing that Enomis brought into this as his game catchup. Look at the difference in reaction from micc.



As much as I hate lists, I feel like I need to include more of my opinions, because I'm having a heck of a time getting them out elsewhere. This is where my suspicions stand right now, going just off my immediate thoughts at 1:30am after a VERY long day of RL junk. This isn't intended to be pure scum/town, just what concerns I have with them in the game:

Fwogcarf - A whole pile of easy town-ish content. Takes 60 ISO posts in the thread before he posts anything serious. After being called on that, he flips into actual useful content and detail.
LuckyLuciano - Comes in decent and holds there. His and Micc's alignment on me is very quick, but also doesn't come with a vote on me. Why not?
72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.
Gypyx - Mostly inactive. Not a huge amount to go on here, but what's there is decent.
Petrichorus - I stand by what I said up-post here.
Tuxedo Mask - Falls back on not understanding a lot. Right now I think that's honest confusion, but I've flip-flopped on the honesty of that every few posts I've read through.
Enomis - So far fine, not a lot to pull from.
Micc - Currently a big suspicion for me. The lack of concern at Enomis' entry post suggests that he was leaning town on JV before replacement, but he had no interaction or information posted to pull from to get that.[/quote][/spoiler]

The thing is I thought you had posted a lot more than what you had before, so I was going to construct an entire argument against you. Once you had flipped, Luciano would have been on the chopping block next regardless of flip. If both of you were town, then my strategy is a lost cause because I'm about 70% sure Luciano is scum at this point.

Since you had literally no content, my readlist fell apart since it was completely based around the scumread on you.

I fixed some tags, I hope my edits reflect the original intent

[fwogcarf]

See 323 ~ Karnage

EBWOP and hope this works

[fwogcarf]

well that didn't fuckin work

[fwogcarf]

See 323 ~ Karnage

FINAL EBWOP PLEASE WORK

The thing is I thought you had posted a lot more than what you had before, so I was going to construct an entire argument against you. Once you had flipped, Luciano would have been on the chopping block next regardless of flip. If both of you were town, then my strategy is a lost cause because I'm about 70% sure Luciano is scum at this point.

Since you had literally no content, my readlist fell apart since it was completely based around the scumread on you.

[fwogcarf]

Ok since it's literally not working this was supposed to be my response:

The thing is I thought you had posted a lot more than what you had before, so I was going to construct an entire argument against you. Once you had flipped, Luciano would have been on the chopping block next regardless of flip. If both of you were town, then my strategy is a lost cause because I'm about 70% sure Luciano is scum at this point.

Since you had literally no content, my readlist fell apart since it was completely based around the scumread on you.

[fwogcarf]

@Gypyx, are you going to spend the entire game popping in, promising a post, and disappearing?

@fwog, can I get an update on how your thoughts have changed since 271.

@enomis, I'm going to need you to expand upon your reads list in 253. Why are Petri and 72 scummy to you?

probably something like

{fwog}
{micc, 72}
{everybody else}
{Luciano, Gypyx}

[fwogcarf]

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

what the flip floppity fuck kinda question is this

Tbh i feel the same way about your question, what is the point in what you said about 72's question?

Spoiler:

you answered the question before making this post but ok

Asking a question like "Hey, who'd you think are the two scum? Let's roll some dice and find out! Look, it's Elon Musk and Donald Trump!", is by no means a way to make meaningful content/questions that help the game.

[fwogcarf]

So basically what you are saying is that I am your strongest scum read, so you were going to build a case against somebody who is not your strongest scum read, so that after they flipped, you could use that flip to push your strongest scum read, independent of whether that flip is red or green? What kind of backwoods hickory stick kinda gameplan is that?

that's not my plan now

[fwogcarf]

3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.

Could you explain how you reached that conclusion that either micc / me should be the 3rd lynch? I don't see you talking about that part

Micc is there because I didn't like their interaction with Luciano

You're there because you seem frozen

[fwogcarf]

@fwog / Tux, you both have noted that scum!Lucky could be pocketing town!Tux. Tux initially voted for Petri for minor reasons and essentially started his investigation. When I voted Petri I have my own, independent reasons for voting him. Later on Tux provided more reasons to suspect Petri, which at the time I agreed with. This came after I was already pushing Petri. Do you universally find players agreeing with other players scummy? I ask this in part because of fwog's 'mind-meld' read. If the town never agrees with one another, we will never lynch scum and never win. Basically, I'm asking you to look at the motives for player's agreeing or disagreeing with one another rather than the agreement or disagreement itself. Players do all kinds of things on both sides of the aisle, what's more important than the

what

of a player's actions is the

why

.

I spent a disproportionately large amount of time playing with colors and finding the perfect shades when writing this post...

Players agreeing with other players isn't scummy when put in a general aspect. I like to look for how their tone sounds when they interact in the first place. Having a discussion where both players share their opinion on an agreed read while maintaining a conversation is good. Spending a couple of posts agreeing with a one-liner that doesn't state what your official position is, is not how you agree with a townish view (i hope that made sense).

I like mindmelding particularitly in this setup because mafia wouldn't dare try bussing. You'd have to have the balls of steel to do that.

[fwogcarf]

Dammit i have to catch up later

be back in 40

[fwogcarf]

A couple of things I don't want to get lost and would like answered:
@Enomis,

Are there any interactions in D1 that you think are scumxscum or do you feel that they've avoided prolonged interaction?

@Fwog

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

RE: 92 - Please define 'locktown'. I'd like to know before I answer so as not to be misconstrued.

@72offsuit, with the exception of your 'gut read' on Gyp, you haven't posted any other content that I can see that gives any other read. You've asked plenty of people for their reads, but given no others from yourself. You say your gut read was to move us away from RVS but you've taken no other steps since your return to continue that momentum. As such, I would like to know whether your read on Gyp has changed and if not, who else do you read as Scum.

Can someone explain the jargon 'chainsaw' to me?

In addition, new questions and answers:

Spoiler: @bv310

72offsuit - The opposite of Fwog for me. Comes in early with reads and details, then drops off that entirely when other people start arguing.

What details or reads does he give at the start of the game before his disappearance with the exception of a single 'gut read' post on Gyp. You're giving him a lot of credit for all the nothing he did and seem to be reading into his drop-off when it seems NAI.
I'm getting some bad juju over this.

@BV, are there any contributions from 72 that you think are particularly notable or that show any leaning to you? I personally see mostly conjecture and bs.

Spoiler: @Lucky

I want to see more of this version of fwog and less of the mid-D1 fwog.

Seconded. That said, Do you find that the change in behaviour itself is AI or not?

@Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus? What are your thoughts on the other players and the different pushes made so far, both against you and against others?

I think that the questioning from yourself, Tux and fwog seem to be in good faith. To contract the state reasons for the votes of Tuxedo, Micc and Gypx are as follows:
Tuxedo: 103

When it comes to the 72/fwogcarf thing, I'd like to know what people are getting at in the 'defending' argument.

Is it suspicious for 72 to 'defend' a player on his own? Or do you think 72's defense is suspicious because you think fwogcarf is suspicious?

This has been a thoroughly discussed interaction and the interrogation was thorough and in good faith. I think the questions he asked were pertinent and aimed at building useful content.

Micc:

VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

Micc did not engage with the wagon at all. After stating that he thought it was a good direction he then jumped off the wagon to chase bv. I don't think scum would have got off the wagon that quick, but it isn't entirely helpful.



Gyp: 202 -

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

but it feels to me that he's just hoping that someone else will get the wagon rolling for him, in order to avoid suspicion

I think the reasoning is a little weak and he is late-ish to the wagon. He didn't interact much with the wagon after voting, but had some good posts on it before he jumped on.

I don't think any scum has jumped on the wagon. Whether it's because they're mostly inactive or because they don't want to jump on too late, I don't know.

72 is still my primary focus, but we'll see if he comes back or gets replaced. If he gets replaced, then maybe this will change. I'm happy while this is happening to move to BV as I concur with much of the discussion. I find his read on 72 specifically of note as a point which I don't think has been brought up yet.

Spoiler: @enomis

I'm still waiting on JV's replacement to react to the Petri push.

I'm also curious as to what a new perspective brings. Enomis, please can you exlain your reads and why you thought BV was more of a priority to push with a wagon?

Weighing in on Gyp:

I think the formatting and questions is NAI. When catching up, it's easy to re-ask questions. It's strange that they're so close together but I don't think it's a major suspicion.
301 seems to be well reasoned and a good answer to Lucky's question as far as I see it. As previously discussed I'd personally focus on who we want as a D1 lynch.

locktown is when someone decides to townread a person as hard as possible, never planning to change their read on them.

There's mechanical locktown and emotional locktown. I'm sure you can tell the difference.

[fwogcarf]

Spoiler: 213

VOTE: bv310
Big scum pings from this. for one it's not really a catchup. second, unvoting a scum lean is a move reserved for moving yourself from a small wagon you believe in to a bigger wagon you believe in. bv310's vote change here goes in the opposite direction which is not productive at all.

Two parts to this.
1) What is a "catchup" to you? What about my posting doesn't fit your criteria?
2) Unvoting a scum-lean to vote for a different scum-lean is not in any way sketchy. The fact that there wasn't any momentum on my read means I can watch that spot for later.

I don't have hard criteria for what a catchup is, but my expectation is that by the time its done it will be clear the person has read the thread completely and spent some time thinking critically about the posts and offered a reaction. Post 194 feels very surface level, to the point where I think its more likely you did a skim than a catchup. You didn't comment at all on about half the players, and the one place you went sorta deep could have easily been cherry picked out of an ISO in less than a minute. The second point here is maybe the best evidence that you hadn't really considered the game deeply enough to have caught up.

Petrichorus was L-2 on the votecount and actually L-1 because Lucian's vote was missed at the time you made this post. There was more momentum for Petrichorus at this point than anyone else at any point of the game. It's definitely a sketchy vote change.

So, it's worth noting that the exact same thing that kicked off Micc's suspicion of me (a short catch-up post that doesn't show enough content) is the same thing that Enomis brought into this as his game catchup. Look at the difference in reaction from micc.

This ignores the fact that one of you spent the entire game not posting and the other replaced in less than 24 hours before. I think it would be unreasonable to judge anyone's catchup content this quickly after replacing into the game. In your case that burden does exist because your catchup is making up for lost time. It's also not clear to me that Enomis is claiming to be entirely caught up at any point, while your post does do that.

Does this mean that Petri's not a wolf?

[fwogcarf]

Hmmm

Gypyx/Luciano is hard for me to deduce because I can see wolf theater as well as legitimate reactions here

[fwogcarf]

Chainsaw means to defend your scummy buddy by pushing their attacker. Fully called Chainsaw Defense.

Spoiler: Chainsaw Defense

Chainsaw Defense
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

why would anybody chainsaw defend in this setup

[fwogcarf]

I might be misunderstanding then. When you said "at this point", is "this point" 271.

Either way, help me understand how that being your plan

at any point

is a good strategy. I'm not seeing why you didn't hard push me if you were confident that I am scum. I'm also concerned with how you seem unaware at how badly you are looking to confbias a read when your plan is to build a case against somebody else with the intent of using their flip, no matter what it is, to push me in the following day phase.

Yeah that seems right.

I haven't pushed you yet because I never got the opportunity to
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

[fwogcarf]

Could you link me to one of your offsite games where you are town and propose a 5-day lynch chain, or something similar to what you did in 266?

Never done a specific lynch chain but here you go

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/threads/25572 I was a recluse wolf this game

https://blankmediagames.com/phpbb/viewt ... 7&t=106970 I was town this game (ignore port mafia flavor)

These two games are the ones that would reflect my behavior now.

[fwogcarf]

Does this mean that Petri's not a wolf?

No. I have no idea how you'd get that idea from that post.

Using your own words: Petrichorus was L-2 on the votecount and actually L-1 because Lucian's vote was missed at the time you made this post. There was more momentum for Petrichorus at this point than anyone else at any point of the game. It's definitely a sketchy vote change.

I don't know if that was what you meant but that's what i got

[fwogcarf]

fwog, I hate that vote btw. why are you ignoring L-1 bv310 right now?

Do you want me to hammer him?

[fwogcarf]

Does this mean that Petri's not a wolf?

No. I have no idea how you'd get that idea from that post.

Using your own words: Petrichorus was L-2 on the votecount and actually L-1 because Lucian's vote was missed at the time you made this post. There was more momentum for Petrichorus at this point than anyone else at any point of the game. It's definitely a sketchy vote change.

I don't know if that was what you meant but that's what i got

bv310 was arguing that there was no momentum on the Pertichorus wagon at the time he unvoted. My statement is about how that was not true at all, it wasn't meant to say anything about how I personally feel about Petrichorus. I'm pretty neutral on Petrichorus right now, but I see a bv310 flip as a good piece of information to be used to solve Petrichorus. bv310 is also a good lynch on its own, so yeah slam dunk lynch imo.

fwog, I hate that vote btw. why are you ignoring L-1 bv310 right now?

Do you want me to hammer him?

I mean, you said you thought he was scummy right? And there's 3 days on the deadline timer. This is the point in the day we should be looking to give intent to see if there's a PR claim coming and move the wagon...ect. I guess if giving intent here isn't your play I'd like to hear exactly what your looking to make happen here. If its a Lucian lynch, you have a lot of work to do to convince me to move my vote, and I think thats probably true for most the playerlist.

1. How does a BV lynch solve Petrichorus when you have expressed a neutral read on them this entire game. I don't follow your thought progression on trying to have someone lynched to solve a neutral slot.

2. I'd rather wait for Luciano, Enomis, and Gypyx to come back. Maybe one of them can hammer if they aren't voting BV already.

[fwogcarf]

ok that's not my thought progression at all. bv310 is scummy entirely on his own. I think i've made that clear? And if I'm right about that read I think it makes Petrichorus look scummy because bv310's decision making would make sense as protecting Petrichorus. But on their own merits, I'm pretty neutral on Petrichorus.

What's your resistance tho? I'm town reading you, you seem to be town reading me. If you have reservations I'm willing to hear them. On the other hand, if you just don't want to be involved, that's a position I don't really understand.

I want to wait for more people to speak their mind about BV

[fwogcarf]

2. I'd rather wait for Luciano, Enomis, and Gypyx to come back. Maybe one of them can hammer if they aren't voting BV already.

2 of us are on the wagon. You are so disconnected from the game and so deep in your confbias tunnel it's insane.

it's not like I'm used to weeklong days

[fwogcarf]

I don't want to lynch BV anymore because they're a dead slot

[fwogcarf]

How exactly do you intend to resolve this dead slot going forward? Do you really think something is going to change?

I hope so

[fwogcarf]

However this whole argument is useless if 72 hammers BV right now

[fwogcarf]

I might be misunderstanding then. When you said "at this point", is "this point" 271.

Either way, help me understand how that being your plan

at any point

is a good strategy. I'm not seeing why you didn't hard push me if you were confident that I am scum. I'm also concerned with how you seem unaware at how badly you are looking to confbias a read when your plan is to build a case against somebody else with the intent of using their flip, no matter what it is, to push me in the following day phase.

Yeah that seems right.

I haven't pushed you yet because I never got the opportunity to
VOTE: LuckyLuciano

What does this mean? Shouldn't you be making your own opportunities? Why wait so late, and after your plan fell apart for this?

Also, could you try explaining your plan more clearly? I don't know what your lynch chain is supposed to accomplish, or even why it's set up the way it is.

Ok, I'm going to be brutally honest.

I've never had a plan in the first place. I supposedly waited so long because I never had any solid scumreads to try and push. Now that I have Luciano as a definitive scumread, it's become way too late in the day for people to switch to their wagon because I wanted them to. It wouldn't make any sense considering I haven't pulled up a lot of proof other than interactions I hated.

So yeah, I'm pissed.

So yeah, I'm fucking up again like I always do. Sue me.

[fwogcarf]

I'm unbelievably frustrated that I can't read more than 1 person as scum

[fwogcarf]

Hey man, it's cool, just a game. I'm wrong all the time. On a different site, I just mislynched, but also regretted the lynch at the last second. So now everyone thinks I was trying to look good by getting off a bad wagon at the last second.

Hell in this game, I directly questioned BV about his weird RVS, and never followed up. That was something I could have pursued way earlier in the day but tunneled Petri way too hard.

But we can talk now. What do you think Lucky is scum, and why do you think BV isn't?

Oh please, you haven't seen my worst games.

The Lucky scumread comes from his interaction with Micc and the buddying up with you. Micc and Luciano's conversation didn't seem town motivated at all to me, more like filler content to pass the time i guess.

BV I don't want to lynch purely because I want more content out of them. Seeming as they have given up trying to defend themselves, I don't think that's gonna happen.

However I've seen and been the guy who's given up as town multiple times. I will not trust anybody on the BV wagon if he flips town, which I think he will.

[fwogcarf]

I've also somehow managed to fill up about 1/4 of this game with my shit

nice

[fwogcarf]

I'm not mad