Open 812 Guardians of the Fortress - Game Over

[absinthe]

Hello!

Wall > Gate > Keep is my preference

Keep > Gate > Wall for me

[absinthe]

Hello!

Wall > Gate > Keep is my preference

Keep > Gate > Wall for me

You're confident you can towntell? Or that you don't want to be in a 3-way with me

Either one is cool

I'm pretty confident in my ability to townread town and to be transparent as town.

What are your strengths and weaknesses that drive your preferences?

Whoops!

[absinthe]

I'm curious about my question, though!

[absinthe]

How do you see those attributes working for your preferences?

[absinthe]

Wall seems the most traditional-mafia like to me?

[absinthe]

Night 1, the mafia team must choose two players and swap their locations such that exactly one Mafia Goon is at each location. Location assignments are public.

I assume this means that the mafia team can move at least one town player from one mini-game to another.

Since 3 mafia in the same mini-game at the end of day 1 results in a mafia loss, the distributions are either 2-1-0 or 1-1-1 at the end of day 1.

Lots of potential wifom in the movements.

[absinthe]

I can provide my thoughts on the setup if people want, though I was thinking it might be better to let some other people weigh in first, because I suspect that people will probably be taking my opinions pretty seriously

Also I'm ngl I was a bit excited to play with absinthe because she was someone I remember being around way back in the day (though I don't think I ever played any games with her).

Only a handful of games from back then, and I don't think anyone in this player list was in one of them.

[absinthe]

On Day 1, there is no elimination. Instead, at any time a player may sign up to guard the Gate, the Wall, or the Keep. You may sign up for a location by voting for it (ie VOTE: Gate). Each player may only sign up to guard one location, and players may not change their chosen location. The locations are first come, first served. At most three players can be signed up at any one location. Day 1 ends when all players except one have signed up for a location. The last player will be forced to the last location without three people at it. Then, if all three mafia members are at the same location, the town wins immediately.

Yeah I've been reading some tidbits myself, do we want to have the last person chosen the person we scumread the most?

How to enforce choice order? Stating the obvious, but today we're dealing with a higher than usual mafia numbers influence, though it's somewhat negated by individual townie choices.

[absinthe]

I am very happy I opened my role PM and it is wonderfully green!

I scumread this post. :/

[absinthe]

Two scummy posts in a row. I'm not really anxious to wind up in a day 1 tunnel, but I suppose it could be worse.

[absinthe]

Two scummy posts in a row. I'm not really anxious to wind up in a day 1 tunnel, but I suppose it could be worse.

I think your mindset might be wrong for how you are approaching this game.

Rather than finding those who you can trust, you are trying to spread suspicion.

I'm unsure if this is scum motivated for now.

I call them like I see them.

Usually my page 1/2 reads are townreads, though.

It could be a playstyle clash that's clanging so hard. It's not just your entrance post declaring your green role pm. The way you phrase things also clangs.

You've earned a skeptical eye, but not a blind one.

[absinthe]

Seeing as they are probably not so stupid as to do that, perhaps we should try quickly putting all the good people into two locations and then the bad people will be stuck going to the last location?

Using the the locations as a one-shot scumteam guess is... a thing we could do, but probably not the most efficient use of it given that the odds of actually getting it right are so low.

the slightest shades of Tenet.

[absinthe]

a proper votecount and an improper one. The co-opting was the deadly issue, though.

[absinthe]

I think your activity is decently pure absin but I'm well aware of your capability as scum,

eh. Only one of us has lost to the scum-other afaik and it wasn't you.

so I'd like to extend a mutual agreement and assume you're not holding a knife behind your back

I'm cautiously optimistic about your alignment.

[absinthe]

After some careful thought I think using Gate is the best null/trashpile, mostly because if we're wrong on a base assumption we can clear a wrong read or confirm an unknown

Sending hard-to-read people to the Gate is probably a good idea, yeah.

Who are the hard-to-reads at this table?

[absinthe]

Okay, everyone cool with it? Cool.

VOTE: Keep

Let's get this.

Not particularly cool with it.

[absinthe]

Okay, everyone cool with it? Cool.

VOTE: Keep

Let's get this.

Not particularly cool with it.

Why not?

Because you haven't put enough into the thread at this point to look like you're easy to read.

I'm holding off my own vote because neither have I. Though I'm a known quantity, at least.

[absinthe]

sure Absinthe but if she's not easy to read by the time the voting comes around she will not be voted the Keep Representative so why would it matter?

Because we could wind up with 3 hard to read players in the Keep if people just jump in there without establishing themselves in the game first.

I think scum would probably like that.

[absinthe]

Please don't call me dear.

[absinthe]

These cross-currents are rapidly becoming not my cuppa tea.

[absinthe]

Seeing as they are probably not so stupid as to do that, perhaps we should try quickly putting all the good people into two locations and then the bad people will be stuck going to the last location?

Using the the locations as a one-shot scumteam guess is... a thing we could do, but probably not the most efficient use of it given that the odds of actually getting it right are so low.

Oh this was kinda the purpose of my suggestion, also

it ties scum's hands a bit if 2 scum end up in the same place.

yes and no. If I'm reading the notes correctly, regardless of how the mafia arrange themselves, they still have to move 2 players. And town has to figure out what's behind the moves.

[absinthe]

She seemed warm to you, mentioning that you seem to understand her. I felt a lot of emotional resonance between you two

I do too, regarding the resonance. It doesn't feel particularly anchored to gamethreadstuff.

[absinthe]

She seemed warm to you, mentioning that you seem to understand her. I felt a lot of emotional resonance between you two

I do too, regarding the resonance. It doesn't feel particularly anchored to gamethreadstuff.

I assure you that our only interactions are in this game thread.

The possibility that this is not the case has crossed my mind, but mainly the emotional content just doesn't feel this-game-related.

Which is confusing.

[absinthe]

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

[absinthe]

The possibility that this is not the case has crossed my mind, but mainly the emotional content just doesn't feel this-game-related.

Which is confusing.

Why is it confusing for two people to vibe?

think about it.

[absinthe]

I feel like I've probably played with a bunch of people here but I don't know who they are

Agree that unwnd feels town, briar's "I'm gonna obvtown" comes from town more often than not I think and I'm getting some townvibes from ana as well

ffery could be scum, mostly because she hasn't townpinged me yet

you should tune up that pingdar, then.

[absinthe]

I'm not changing my avi for you this time, S_S.

[absinthe]

I think that I personally would prefer the Gate. But there appears to be a discussion on the best way to assign people to groups, so I can wait for that conversation to happen before I lock in my choice

What drives that preference?

[absinthe]

you should tune up that pingdar, then.

You think I should have townpings from you at this point?

kinda depends on how your towndar works, if you're town. I'm not obfuscating my alignment or playstyle at all. I had intended to see if I could reprise the absinthe playstyle for this game, but that's out the window.

This will be a swan song game.

[absinthe]

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.

[absinthe]

I think I've been more irritable than unwnd has regarding the vibe stuff.

It's curious that he's gotten stick and I haven't.

[absinthe]

dinner is on my mind.

later.

[absinthe]

you still haven't explained why you liked Absinthe's statement that she could town-tell confidently when you have seen her absolutely murder a town solo by herself as scum.

more like barely squeak by.

I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'

I wish to just let be things how they are for right now

It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.

Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.

She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep.

I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.

This is...fiction.

I mean, I wish I were this kind of scum player.

Your exaggerations are alarming.

[absinthe]

~scumread intensifies~

I'm not sure which minigame I'd be comfortable having Anastasia in.

[absinthe]

I don't think you give yourself enough credit for how you dismembered that town.

I give myself the credit I'm due, and no more. That town mostly dismembered itself. Not only did I not lead miselims, half the time I didn't even put a vote down. I got away with it because I'm badly vote-skittish/indecisive as town.

[absinthe]

absinthe - in 54 you said you were cautiously optimistic about unwnd's alignment, but in 120 you suggested Dunn saying he "feels" town is "a little premature". What's the difference there, exactly?

I answered this directly to Dunn.

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.

Dunn and I went back and forth for much of the Warehouse 13 Day 1 about which early-early townreads on me he was calling weird and why, among other things. He thought the townreads on my hydra with Nacho were incautious and unwarranted.

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

Mostly I was heckling him, but I do wonder about the ease of that read.

[absinthe]

I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'

I wish to just let be things how they are for right now

It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.

Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.

She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep.

I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.

Okay, this post helps clear things up for me and puts it in simple terms, I actually like the logic here

You think this is accurate?

[absinthe]

How would one say that with said undertones?

The way I said it?

[absinthe]

You got away with it because you were town read by enough townies that you were never really in danger at any point during the entirety of the game.

It means you can be town read as scum - hence why I don't think he should've taken your offer of town telling at face-value.

If you know me half as well as you imply, then you know that as town I often wind up the N1 kill because I do usually towntell pretty emphatically as town.

I'm not saying that I can't put in a decent scum game when the chips are down. although I never plan to be the go-deep scum player, when it happens I'm highly motivated not to let my team down. It probably says something about me and them both, that I've only managed that kind of misdirection with players who know me really, really well.

In my last scum game, which was abandoned by the mod, I was probably getting day-1 elimmed, which would have lost the game for my team.

[absinthe]

absinthe - in 54 you said you were cautiously optimistic about unwnd's alignment, but in 120 you suggested Dunn saying he "feels" town is "a little premature". What's the difference there, exactly?

I answered this directly to Dunn.

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.

Dunn and I went back and forth for much of the Warehouse 13 Day 1 about which early-early townreads on me he was calling weird and why, among other things. He thought the townreads on my hydra with Nacho were incautious and unwarranted.

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

Mostly I was heckling him, but I do wonder about the ease of that read.

I see, so your comment was more about potential discomfort with the ease of him giving the read, based on his personality, rather than the actual substance of the read?

My comment was about 60% razz and about 40% pulling a thread to see what happens next.

[absinthe]

In my last scum game, which was abandoned by the mod, I was probably getting day-1 elimmed, which would have lost the game for my team.

There were enough people townreading your slot in that game that you were unlikely to be eliminated.

You are very good at getting enough people to believe the lie.

I was resigned to being the game-losing miselim and felt terrible for my scumteam. I was indescribably relieved that the game was abandoned.

You're spending a lot of time discrediting me and building me up into a scary monster.

And not very much time trying to figure me out.

I don't think you need to figure me out.

[absinthe]

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

You keep saying this as if I am trying to harm you in some way.

I haven't done anything of the sort - I simply do not want to bet the Keep Mini Game on your slot.

It's not even a condemnation of your play or a scum-read on you.

Some players are easier to town-read accurately than others are.

You stating that you could town-tell adequately to be the Keep Chosen should not have been accepted by unwnd at face value

because he's literally seen you dismantle an entire town solo by yourself almost.

You can't run away from who you are.

I do think you're trying to harm me.

[absinthe]

I do think you're trying to harm me.

How?

All I said about you was that I wouldn't trust you to be the Keep representative.

What's wrong with that even if you are town? There's five other townies who can represent the Keep.

If Bell was in this game and he had definitively town-told, would you want to be the rep instead of him?

You wrote a bunch of bloviating exaggerations about my scum game. That and the tone is scaremongering. This doesn't just affect where I decide to vote myself. It impacts other players trying to read me and it's well-poisoning.

Your posts reek of manipulation.

[absinthe]

I was resigned to being the game-losing miselim and felt terrible for my scumteam. I was indescribably relieved that the game was abandoned.

You're spending a lot of time discrediting me and building me up into a scary monster.

And not very much time trying to figure me out.

I don't think you need to figure me out.

It wasn't even about you...

I was talking to unwnd about how I don't think he should've accepted your statement about town-telling at face value since he's seen you wreck a town before as a scum.

I was trying to figure out unwnd's thought process on why he just accepted it.

I haven't even made a statement this game about you being scum as far as I remember?

Where did I say you've made a statement about me being scum in this game?

[absinthe]

You wrote a bunch of bloviating exaggerations about my scum game. That and the tone is scaremongering. This doesn't just affect where I decide to vote myself. It impacts other players trying to read me and it's well-poisoning.

Your posts reek of manipulation.

Seems a bit harsh.

I am sorry you feel that way.

I'm not.

I think you've revealed your alignment.

[absinthe]

If they are reading this game, there are some seriously gifted scum players wondering what the hell you've been smoking.

In the post that I'm responding to?

You say I am "discrediting you and building you up into a scary monster."

I didn't even call you scum so I don't know where you're getting that from.

I keep pointing out your inaccuracies about my scumgame and you keep doubling down. That is a discredit.

You don't actually have any control over whether I wind up in the keep or not. What you do have some control over is how the other town player in that scenario would read me, and what you've done here so far is indeed a discredit.

Here are a few posts where you're building me up into a scary monster.

Spoiler:

I liked Absin's mentality early and was willing to give it a pass.

She's one of the best scum players on the site. I would not trust her anywhere near the Keep.

Your reaction to her self-meta of towntelling easily gave me chills.

you still haven't explained why you liked Absinthe's statement that she could town-tell confidently

when you have seen her absolutely murder a town solo by herself as scum.

I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'

I wish to just let be things how they are for right now

It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.

Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.

She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep

.

I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.

You got away with it because you were town read by enough townies that you were never really in danger at any point during the entirety of the game.

It means you can be town read as scum - hence why I don't think he should've taken your offer of town telling at face-value

.

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

You keep saying this as if I am trying to harm you in some way.

I haven't done anything of the sort - I simply do not want to bet the Keep Mini Game on your slot.

It's not even a condemnation of your play or a scum-read on you.

Some players are easier to town-read accurately than others are.

You stating that you could town-tell adequately to be the Keep Chosen should not have been accepted by unwnd at face value

because he's literally seen you dismantle an entire town solo by yourself almost.

You can't run away from who you are.

In my last scum game, which was abandoned by the mod, I was probably getting day-1 elimmed, which would have lost the game for my team.

There were enough people townreading your slot in that game that you were unlikely to be eliminated.

You are very good at getting enough people to believe the lie

.

[absinthe]

I think you're being incredibly mean to someone who thinks the world of you for no good reason.

If you're town you should at least consider my point of view instead of lacing into me with these words because you will regret them.

If this is how you genuinely feel, then the feeling is mutual, and you are going to have some regrets, too. Even if I come to a townread somehow down the road, given what you've already put in the thread about me there's very little chance I could give your opinions any weight.

[absinthe]

I liked her early impressions, wasn't specifically a statement. Hence I said 'mentality'

I wish to just let be things how they are for right now

It is rare for a scum to have the ability to be the most townread person in a game - most good scum excel at hiding or pushing through a mis-elim etc.

Absinthe is one of the few scum who are good at being townread while scum.

She is absolutely the most dangerous person to put in the Keep.

I think you know this, so that's why your reaction to her statement just doesn't make sense for me.

Okay, this post helps clear things up for me and puts it in simple terms, I actually like the logic here

You think this is accurate?

I think...the mindset here is a town solving mindset.

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

[absinthe]

I'm done with the recent line of discussion with anastasia.

[absinthe]

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.

I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.

As Briar and unwnd have demonstrated, for the most part there's no "putting" townreads or scumreads anywhere, unless they buy in.

[absinthe]

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.

I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.

As Briar and unwnd have demonstrated, for the most part there's no "putting" townreads or scumreads anywhere, unless they buy in.

Well, I think people should cooperate and collaborate and would have said so if I'd been here at the start. Is there some point you're trying to make?

Not really. Just feeling a little deflated that it could be really easy for things to go south in this phase without town cooperation, and feeling that day 1 can be warped more than I'd initially thought by the presence of 3 scum instead of 2.

My optimism's taking some hits.

[absinthe]

I want some time to think about the game and players holistically.

[absinthe]

Luke, do you have much experience with non-standard mafia game setups?

[absinthe]

Luke, do you have much experience with non-standard mafia game setups?

Not sure what is defined as "non-standard." I have played a game with a cult in it, and I have played a game with 2 mafia groups. I guess those are non-standard?

To some extent. I meant games where the mechanics are different from "vote the bad guys out"/"night kill the dangerous townies".

[absinthe]

I need to think on it before I'm sure I agree with you, Briar, but I like that on first read.

[absinthe]

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.

I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.

I don't know that I agree that it only matters where we put out top town reads. I was thinking about how we can organize the groups, and if we put our collective top scum reads in the same area, we can analyze the mafia switch.

I don't know how it is best to distribute the scum reads, like should we pick out our top 3, or just put our top 2 in the same area, and I'm still thinking about which area would be best to do this experiment. Would love for us to talk about this lol

But basically, I don't like the idea

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others.

I suppose you can try, but I'm not sure how useful it's likely to be. But I'm a little bit fatalistic about the idea of trying to corral scumreads in this phase. I suppose it can't hurt to try?

I'm thinking of it more as an information gathering strategy.

Like as a thought experiment, with the scum swap, they have 3 things to juggle. They must put 1 mafia in every zone. They want to cherry pick an IC, and put them into the Gate if they are not there already. And they want to murky the read in the zones.

If we just go with "do whatever" for the others, then we might let them achieve all of those goals more easily.


And If we put our scum reads all at the wall, lets say we get 2 right and 1 wrong. Suddenly, they don't have free choice of swapping any more, we force their hand. They must target a town player, and move them to the wall to swap with the mafia there. Which means they have 0 ability to cherry pick an IC, because they cannot move a town player to the Gate.

<3

[absinthe]

Maybe that logic makes no sense, and I am over thinking it, but the idea of "just doing whatever" feels wrong to me

I like it. Making it happen is non-trivial, but I like it.

[absinthe]

Okay, thoughts readswise:

I like unwnd's early energy

I townread Infinity's 52 - something about that mindset fees like it's coming from town

I think Lukewarm's posts have been solidly town and he'd be my first pick for someone to send to the wall right now

No particular scum pings yet

Not sure how to feel about this, because last game you scum read every post I made all the way up to MeLo.

Wait let me double check my notes here

Spoiler:

VOTE: catboi

No this is not a RVS vote.
Yes, I do already hard scum read him.
Yes, I will tunnel on this all game

Yeah, I do already know how to respond to this.

I mean, I think given prior exxperience I'm less likely to make the same mistakes. But I think your whole process of self-examination and trying to figure which location would be the most helpful for town to be at felt very pure. The way it evolved in-thread felt like it was coming from genuine thinking. I don't know how you'd play as scum given IRL experience, but most newbie scum players tend to just hang in the background and hope to not get noticed, and your play so far has been more forward than that.

really I just don't want to be in the same location as you, no hard feelings I swear~ (jkjk)

I like this post.

[absinthe]

In 24? or what post are you referring to

I missed this question earlier. Yes, my 24.

[absinthe]

Is it non-trivial currently? I mean, we do have one group still that has 3/3 spaces in it and in theory if we blitz the other two groups full with snapshot townreads we'd leave them all in the Gate, which I don't think is the worst group to have at least 1 conftown come out of.

I don't think it's a winning strategy because getting 3/3 sounds far-fetched though and I'd rather have like, 1 scummy person in each group if possible for obvious reasons. Save for the Keep.

Actually I don't know why I'm speculating about this, it's fun but not gonna happen realistically.

6 town finding each other well enough and quickly enough to agree on 3 scummy players, and not have that conversation subverted by scum seems like a stretch.

I went back through the thread to see if I could firm up any reads and didn't come away with much I didn't already have. :/

[absinthe]

I want to go to the wall since that's the only place my scumreads will matter unless I obvtown, which I probably won't cause I don't have super high motivation for mafia atm. Otherwise, I'd rather go to the wall (again, cause I probably won't obvtown)

Having a UTR decide who goes where should increase our odds of winning (of forcing someone to scumclaim by not following the plan) right?

Do you have a candidate for UTR?

[absinthe]

This may be the shortest reset period in my mafia career.

and this may be my last post of the night.

[absinthe]

shortest time from tilt to regaining objectivity/equilibrium, basically.

[absinthe]

right now I think a briar/anastasia/me group would get broken up during the night phase.

I'll probably have to unpack that change of heart, but I'd like to wait until morning.

Anastasia, I'm unsure about Dunn being town. I want to townread catboi but I don't think he's done anything unequivocally town. The body of work, feels town, though.

I need to think about unwnd and sift through his iso a few times.

[absinthe]

My near-term goal is to get Keep won and have my card flipped as town so I don't have to deal with Absinthe suspecting me and my reads can be taken as Gospel Truth.

your near-term goal doesn't need to address dealing with my suspicion.

initially, the way you backed off really bugged me. It took a couple rereads of the whole interaction to see it as genuine. You hit a sore spot, and an alt hitting the spot so precisely should have been a bigger flag to me than it was. I said way back on page 2 that your phrasing clanged, and I think the reason it clanged was because it was kind of a persona -- the way you play on this alt. You later dropped that, or it became less pronounced, and your posts started to feel more genuine to me.

I think I know who you are. your posts about my scum game are consistent with that guess. seeing that kind of description from basically anyone else would never sit right with me. from who I think you are, it's frustrating, but I don't see it as for sure manipulative.

If you're who I think you are and scum, though, this game is going to leave a mark. :/

My read flip gave me whiplash.

[absinthe]

I'm ok with going to the Keep.

my heart isn't in it, but it's due to annoyance at feeling* so provoked that I wound up dropping a megaton-sized Empire tell when I wanted to just be unequivocal town from the way I approach the game.

The Gate is still my second choice.

*this is an internal thing. I don't think anastasia set out to provoke me.

[absinthe]

I have a lot of frustratingly null players I want to figure out however. I think the pairing of (You/Absin/Briar) definitely has one scum but that being said one of you has partners. I'd like to see what catboi has to say to my retort and go from there

It's just my gut when it comes to the situation. We could be playing a game where something like S_S/Infinity/Dunn could simply be overwhelmed by townies but I don't see the evidence in that world. I think the most likely answer is that scum is fully committed in you 3. Do you disagree?

Who's the fully committed scum?

[absinthe]

I'm ok with going to the Keep.

Putting 3 towny players in the Keep seems like a massive waste

Oh yeah, for the record-- another part of Ana's gambit could be hoping (or knowing, if absinthe is her partner) that absinthe doesn't end up picking Keep.

Also unlikely, but worth mentioning.

I'm confused.

[absinthe]

My thought is that putting 3 town (very likely town) into the keep forces the Mafia to use one of their swaps there. And the lack of the swap if that were to happen would force a massive reset on all of town, which would be crucial to not screwing up day 2.

[absinthe]

I'm ok with going to the Keep.

Putting 3 towny players in the Keep seems like a massive waste

I think I agree. We only need two in there, 1 as the main vote choice, and 1 as the back-up in case the main vote is swapped out.

Are people comfortable with Briar as the main vote, and Ana as the back up? if so, we could leave the third slot for the "left over" player.

So I guess the question is really, does anyone scum read Briar or Ana?

To answer this explicitly, I do not scumread either of them.

-------------------------

I'm scumreading S_S mostly for cold meta reasons. The only game I've played with scum-S_S, he was in a hydra and it was years ago. I don't think that meta is useful at all.

After coming back from hiatus last summer, I've played with town-S_S twice. I wound up doing a fairly detailed (for me) meta dive during the first game. In the second game, although I did work on reading him, it wasn't critical because one of my strongest non-confirmed townreads was vouching for him (Cabd crumbed they were masons to me, though it wasn't confirmed until we were all dead).

Anyway. I should review the games I meta'd (and see if there's a more recent scum game out there) to lock in the read or convince myself I"m wrong.

[absinthe]

My thought is that putting 3 town (very likely town) into the keep forces the Mafia to use one of their swaps there.

That's true of any location. If we really could identify 3 town, wouldn't it be best to put them at the Wall to force scum to swap in a scum to get voted off?

That would probably work out at least as well, but I feel like that ship has sailed.

I'm scumreading S_S mostly for cold meta reasons.

What reasons?

The lack of some stuff I associate with your town game, and (I think) the presence of some things I associate with your scum game. That's as detailed as I want to be atm.

Right now I'm trying to map your interactions with anastasia last night onto either behavioral set, and that's making me think I need a refresher on your scum play.

Most of the cold meta I looked at during the Illicit Substances game was in open setups. All of my direct experience playing with you (unless I'm forgetting something) is in closed setups.

And I just realized I blanked out playing with you in Tenet. I need to think about that game, too.

[absinthe]

I'm confused.

About what?

There's elapsed time that might explain it, but that felt contradictory to me. Like, you're discouraging that combination in the Keep because you think it's 3 town, while earlier you were positing potential me/anastasia as scum. It almost felt like you would scumread us NOT going through with that combination for the Keep when I read your earlier post.

[absinthe]

because we can win the game if we get a 3-3

But we won't.

I'm actually slightly hopeful that if you and infinity go to the wall with unwnd that we will win the game immediately.

The implication is that you want one of Luke/me, Dunn and Catboi at the Gate?

[absinthe]

That Gate combo is kinda scary to me. :/

[absinthe]

My thought is that putting 3 town (very likely town) into the keep forces the Mafia to use one of their swaps there.

That's true of any location. If we really could identify 3 town, wouldn't it be best to put them at the Wall to force scum to swap in a scum to get voted off?

The more I think about it, the more this post bugs me.

[absinthe]

The more I think about it, the more this post bugs me.

Because it's mechanically wrong, or because it's infeasible this game? (Or some other reason that didn't even occur to me?)

Because it's infeasible, and yet is apparently the best you've got for nixing Anastasia's choices about the Keep.

Do you have a preference for how to fill the 3 minigames?

[absinthe]

Infinity, what's the basis of your earlier read on me? And what made you feel better?

[absinthe]

Infinity, what's the basis of your earlier read on me? And what made you feel better?

I'm not sure. I think I was expecting a kind of warmth/drive to your posting that wasn't there. Right now you feel like you're thinking about the game but being reserved not putting everything into the thread, which usually comes from town.

Warmth was unlikely here given this isn't a player list I automatically vibe with (which is by design -- I wanted a player list I don't know super well since I wanted to play it on this account. unwnd joined after me, but I don't think we particularly vibe in games). Drive though, it surprises me that you didn't read that in my early posts.

I would never voluntarily sign up to play as an alt with a bunch of people who know me well. That would introduce subterfuge that I'm not interested in exploring as any alignment.

[absinthe]

Wall: Me, Unwnd, Absinthe (aye, a repeat of our last game together )

We're not doing this if I have anything to say about it.

[absinthe]

I wanted a player list I don't know super well since I wanted to play it on this account. unwnd joined after me, but I don't think we particularly vibe in games

I think that issue more comes with our circumstances. Last time we played I was trying to appeal to your sensibilities by undoing Bell's replacement. The other time (from memory) we were in separate threads and I eventually tilt-replaced out. I suppose there's that other game you won where I got limmed as your partner, but I digress.

I agree. There's also the Xeno game, but I was in that game for a very short day 1, and was posting in a 3 headed hydra. And as far as I knew/know that's the first game we've ever played.

The potential to mindmeld is there but it hasn't happened in a game so far. It doesn't feel like it's going to happen here, but it's early days, so.

[absinthe]

@ffery You don't feel like you have a ton of drive here, it feels like you're applying a light touch. You had an early scumread on ana, but you didn't express it as "ana is definitely scum" or continued questioning. Another way I see drive manifest is extended analysis, but you didn't feel the need for that, instead you gave the thoughts that came to your mind and didn't feel the need to say more.

That read process got totally tangled up in my reaction to Anastasia's characterization of my scum game. It was a painful way to refine that eventual read, but here we are.

The level of analysis I've put into this game so far (whether it's entirely explicit or not) is miles beyond the Penultimate game. I don't expect town-you to be able to confidently read me off of 2 data points but holy shit you have to at least recognize there's very little room for comparison between these two games. Part of the reason I'm nowhere near townreading you here is because you don't seem to be drawing anything from that game with respect to this one.

[absinthe]

Wall: Me, Unwnd, Absinthe (aye, a repeat of our last game together )

We're not doing this if I have anything to say about it.

I am curious why you would be adamantly against it.

Like the one game the 3 of us played together in, was also my first game with you or unwnd (and my first game on this site period). If we were doing a repeat grouping, I would be a bit more equipped to handle it I think. I would be going in with two players that I have experience with personally, and 2 players I have seen interact together as well. Which is better then me going to the gate (and being IC'ed) with two people I have never played with imo

I really don't need the trauma. Given the reads on the table in that game, I recognise it probably wasn't town-winnable, but it was the first game in over 5 years that I was miselimed in elo, and I'd have to go back nearly another 5 years for another game where I was the game-losing miselim.

You're not townreading me here, so why should I expect a better outcome?

I like this game design because 1) I can't be N1K'd and 2) there are two minigames that don't involve the standard ELO.

[absinthe]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

[absinthe]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

I was against it, because I had a scum lean on Ana before she locked herself in, and as a knee jerk reaction, I thought "I should not let her single handedly decide the make up of the Keep" and almost locked myself in for the sole reason of denying her the set up she wanted. But when I stopped and examined how her suggestion would play out (Post 511), I concluded that even though I did not like the play she made, it was probably coming from town.

Basically, I was thinking about the suggestion in terms of Ana being the person making it, and not in terms of you being in her suggestion.

Why are you townreading me in this game?

[absinthe]

really I just don't want to be in the same location as you, no hard feelings I swear~ (jkjk)

Wall: Me, Unwnd, Absinthe (aye, a repeat of our last game together )

We're not doing this if I have anything to say about it.

I am become pariah

regardless of the actual composition, this is the minigame I least want to play. But working under the assumption that you aren't townreading me played heavily into my allergic reaction to the suggestion.

[absinthe]

But I was townreading you here

then I don't understand why you were against briar/anastasia/me in the keep. Can you clarify that?

I was against it, because I had a scum lean on Ana before she locked herself in, and as a knee jerk reaction, I thought "I should not let her single handedly decide the make up of the Keep" and almost locked myself in for the sole reason of denying her the set up she wanted. But when I stopped and examined how her suggestion would play out (Post 511), I concluded that even though I did not like the play she made, it was probably coming from town.

Basically, I was thinking about the suggestion in terms of Ana being the person making it, and not in terms of you being in her suggestion.

Why are you townreading me in this game?

To be fully honest, I had you as a town lean, not a hard read, but it was primarily your earlier interactions with Ana. Which is also when I put Ana as a scum lean. This quote from Briar felt like she was reading my mind on the exchange tbh

there's a bit of me that wonders if Ana's bit off a bit much for her to chew if she is scum and is trying to placate absinthe who was not having it if that is the case

That post resonated to me, too, before I realized who Anastasia probably is. And it's a testament to how dense I can be that I didn't figure it out much, much sooner.

The interaction makes a whole lot of sense coming from town-Anastasia's-main. I can see the scum equity in sowing paranoia about me while ostensibly pursuing someone else as a scumread, but it was an extremely ungraceful disengage and came after the bridge was already engulfed in flames. And I wouldn't characterize their scumgame as ungraceful. AT ALL.

[absinthe]

@ffery I don't really agree that your analysis is miles beyond the penultimate game accounting for the activity of the thread. I don't see a reason to expect you to be incapable of faking this level of analysis as scum, because you seem like an analytical player in general. But that's not to say I didn't take into account the penultimate game--that's part of where my expectation of warmth came from, along with the interactions I've had with you out-of-game. You played well in that game and I was townreading you there by the end, and that game just doesn't really give me much useful data (especially without a town baseline really). I don't expect your scumgame to be blazing obvtown but besides that yeah.

If you want to continue this interaction ffery, I actually thought it was useful.

I started to reply to it, but felt like from my end, the interaction isn't useful at all. I feel like continuing to pursue you about this is just going to cement the read I've already half-formed when I want to stay open to the possibility I'm wrong to scumread you for not seeing the blindingly obvious differences between my play here and my play in that game.

Even though I'm not trying to play inside (what I remember about) the absinthe persona. since I alt slipped (for the first time since...2016?) in my 2nd post of this game, I am kind of channeling those aspects of my mafia persona more strongly than usual. absinthe was meant to be a throwback to brash, arrogant 2013 me, prior to the usual level of play at MS taking my confidence down several notches.

S_S doesn't like the anime avatar, but that image looking back at me in every post encourages a little brashness.

[absinthe]

Yeah I do feel you're different, and you do feel towny here, but I'd expect scum!you to be different here because the game is more active and you'd feel the need to try to keep up. Actually, one of the biggest reasons I feel you're town here is that you're not trying to look town.

One thing I never struggle with as scum qua scum is keeping up. There are alignment differences in

what

I post, but not at all in

how much

I post. If I'm not keeping up, it's real life getting in the way of my hobby, not my alignment.

I can manage pretty well in a page-restricted game, but it's not my playstyle to sit back and watch.

[absinthe]

From observation absin is very sweet but just wants to win, which doesn't interfere with how she treats people outside of the game. I think as time goes on that attitude has become more detrimental because people expect you to have an emotional response at the ready. I have to admit that way of playing in my opinion isn't very thrilling. I'm not going to say something so stark like 'I don't play this game to make friends' because that's probably impossible. There are a lot of people I end up liking both for game and personal reasons, but the personal reasons feel much more trivial. This plays in part in how I've been handling some other issues. In laymen's terms, I expect something out of my teammates and I don't want friendship to come before the objectives. I've genuinely refused to do that for a long time.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about my playstyle in this post. Felt the same way about a previous post, too. I feel like it's some kind of compare and contrast with your own style, but I'm not sure what I'm supposed to take from it or what other players are meant to take from it.

[absinthe]

I realize I wasn't invited to your conversation and that I'm holding a raincheck but

What's your read on me right now absin? You mentioned that you're not sure if this is the game where we mindmeld, but I can't see that being totally untrue

You seem opaque here. It's like you're trying to explain stuff about your playstyle, but it seems tangential to the game and I have very little window into what you're thinking about other players and the minigame distributions.

I liked your initial reachouts to me, but I don't know what to make of anything since your interactions with Anastasia. That initial disconnect was probably my fault for getting so tangled up in what Anastasia was posting about me to you.

I almost feel like you're trying to run interference for me, or you're using my play as a compare and contrast for some reason, like I mentioned in my last post.

[absinthe]

That's an unfortunate trait I've taken on this game where I'm running on 3 hours with a head full of thoughts

Welcome to my world. Last night was my worst night's sleep by far since that newbie game.

[absinthe]

What's your read of me? Or is that covered by the raincheck?

How do you feel about Luke's idea of a rematch at the Wall?

[absinthe]

That's rainchecked for now

It felt a bit (without offending) like an excited child. I don't think he really thought through what it would mean to either of us and just sort of threw it out there. Do you think that lack of consideration is more telling of him as scum?

It fits with his personality/playstyle, imo. I think it comes from the same place that his decision to vote me before egix had a chance to vote him in the newbie game came from.

[absinthe]

That's rainchecked for now

It felt a bit (without offending) like an excited child. I don't think he really thought through what it would mean to either of us and just sort of threw it out there. Do you think that lack of consideration is more telling of him as scum?

I mean, I am slightly offended by that tbh. I did think about it, like I considered my how I would feel if neither of you were swapped out, and I also thought about what it would mean for me if one of you were - I just did not voice those thoughts because I was told that having that information out in the thread would be detrimental to town.

Regardless, I am reconsidering my suggestion.

Hmm. True.

There's just a small part of me that doesn't trust her despite everything because as a player I feel this is the sort of thing she would do as scum so holding her accountable to her willingness to vote someone who's not herself makes me more comfortable with her. Like, I'm pre-emptively neutering her as scum.

But I guess that her willingness to do that only extended to me/absinthe I think?

Like, hm.

Specifically, if Briar is unsure about having her+ana be the vote block in the keep, think I might be the best person to go there??
I may be wrong, but I think I have been townread by over half the lobby, so maybe I would make sense to be that person.

Unless people object to that / have a better candidate?

I still want to go to the keep.

If you preempt that, I'll likely cast a grumpy Vote Gate immediately, and then I probably stew in my concerns about a Dun/catboi/me Gate trio unless/until reality overtakes that.

[absinthe]

That's rainchecked for now

It felt a bit (without offending) like an excited child. I don't think he really thought through what it would mean to either of us and just sort of threw it out there. Do you think that lack of consideration is more telling of him as scum?

It fits with his personality/playstyle, imo. I think it comes from the same place that his decision to vote me before egix had a chance to vote him in the newbie game came from.

I assume that his personality would lean more towards town then in your book, given that's what he was in our last game lol

I am leaning town on him, but I think the personality/playstyle would push toward grasping for agency regardless of alignment.

[absinthe]

Do you think that lack of consideration is more telling of him as scum?

What do you think about it?

[absinthe]

Briar who do you want as the third in the Keep?

[absinthe]

only if my reads are wrong

I think it's pretty silly to have a value judgement on play that is only determined after the game is over. We want to know now what's good and what isn't; so I think that it is bad play to commit yourself to a read like that, even if the read turns out to be right in the end.

I think you are stuck in a weird place where you can't decide whether you want to shade me as bold genius scum gambitter or bad town tunnel reader and it makes you sound funny

since I think you are scummy it makes me feel I'm on the right track with this briar/absinthe plan

I think you're probably approaching reading s_s not great, though he's still leaning scum for me atm. Like, he loves to talk about things in a vacuum and not come to firm conclusions,

though the way he's doing it here I feel is +scum for him.

Re the bolded what makes the way he's doing it +scum? How does it vary from his townplay?

Also, you've repeatedly said that you're not motivated enough to obvtown this game.

What's dampening your motivation?

[absinthe]

If Briar and Anastasia are both town, Why doesn't anybody care/want to be in the keep? Shouldn't mafia want to put a member in there so they can swap more effectively?

Have you missed that both Luke and I want to be in the keep?

[absinthe]

I don't have a large sample on s_s (at least that I can remember), but I think he does seem a bit more goal-directed as town and I can see the purpose of his questioning a bit more easily.

My motivation to play mafia comes in waves and right now it's at a low point

Was there something about this game that overrides the motivation slump?

[absinthe]

you guys both think that Ana is town or no?

I do.

I'm also townreading Luke, though not to the same level.

I'm expecting scum to have to swap players from/to the keep and I think the swaps will be informative.

[absinthe]

I'm finding I quite like this playerlist.

So, you're feeling more motivated?

[absinthe]

If me, Infinity, and unwnd don't all end up at different locations post-swap, then we are 100% ruled out as a team. So if scum don't ensure that we do all end up at different locations, you got your wish at eliminating that team, without having to strongarm the locations. And if scum do ensure that we all end up at different locations, it means they couldn't use their swap to do whatever else they wanted to do.

Am I misunderstanding what constitutes a swap?

[absinthe]

If me, Infinity, and unwnd don't all end up at different locations post-swap, then we are 100% ruled out as a team. So if scum don't ensure that we do all end up at different locations, you got your wish at eliminating that team, without having to strongarm the locations. And if scum do ensure that we all end up at different locations, it means they couldn't use their swap to do whatever else they wanted to do.

Am I misunderstanding what constitutes a swap?

[absinthe]

Am I misunderstanding what constitutes a swap?

Doubtful? The swap exchanges the locations of two players, such that there's exactly one scum at each location afterward. Are you having trouble following my post?

So one swap = two players moved.

You said something about all 3 of you winding up in different mini games if you're grouped together on Day 1 and I don't see how that's possible.

[absinthe]

If I weren't very much consensus minded, I would already have voted myself into the keep.

The only thing that holds my vote back atm is Briar's preference.

Also, I'm all in on Anastasia-town. Fite Me

Much as I dislike the idea of winding up at the Wall, I'm willing to entertain reasons why that would be a good thing for town.

I'm going to link this post from broseidon because he gets me as a mafia player and he's also able to verbalize what I'm about better than I can, myself. This is what I strive for in every town game. And this is absolutely what I'm doing here.

It's also what I strive for as scum. I vastly prefer being a supporting actor to a don corleone over carrying a team myself.

[absinthe]

ok but like if Briar and Ana are both town don't we want scum to take the last slot?

I want to get the day 1 clean win tho

I feel like the chances are low, even though I think your solve is probably close.

This isn't a player list full of slouches. It's not full of larger than life personalities for the most part, but I think everyone here is in it to win it.

[absinthe]

oh my.

I think this may be the very first appearance ever of drunk-absinthe.

[absinthe]

I feel like the chances are low, even though I think your solve is probably close.

I can't believe I need to suggest both of you that it isn't lol

Aside from yourself, what do you think is wrong with Anastasia's solve?

Spoiler: keep in mind

my Anastasia read is at "fite me" level of conviction.

[absinthe]

I would even go so far to say I like S_S's input

what do you like about it?

And how experienced are you with S_S?

[absinthe]

unwnd. :/

[absinthe]

More than five.

But you seriously expected town-me to go "screw strategy, I'm gonna yeet myself into the Wall just to prove Ana wrong!"?

you have to pick somewhere for for some reason. where else and why?

[absinthe]

I would even go so far to say I like S_S's input

what do you like about it?

And how experienced are you with S_S?

Decently? I've never been scum against him or even the opposite way. Somehow we end up being the same alignment. To me his advice/frustrations towards Ana wanting to do what she's doing is genuine, and I think the way he's talked about the setup again is more 'heady analysis' I don't really feel like scum would bother with at this point

I've never been scum against him either.

There are things I've noticed about his scum game that I feel like would have manifested by now? And I'm not seeing them.

I'm trying to remember if I ever spoke any of my most cogent scum-S_S meta observations into to the MS database or if it's purely in my head/in morphtalk.

[absinthe]

If I were scum and Briar/Ana were both town, I'd already be in the Keep

I'd treat this as a scumclaim

Go on

It's not town-motivated at all to lock in a vote without discussing here, especially since it encourages scum to do the same.

And if I do scum claim, what are you going to do about it?

What the hell is this bravado man

It's not bravado, this is a continuation of me saying what I'd do if I were scum here, and why I sort of doubt briar + ana as town

Personally if I were scum I'd be trying to throw doubt onto the two townreads already at the keep

This is a good thought.

I'd really like to see something about how you'd like to see the minigames set up today.

[absinthe]

I've half a mind to just jump to the gate right now - I actually didn't mind lukewarm's suggestion earlier that I be the third at the keep, because I don't see scum motivation in Anastasia's play and although briar's play didn't make a ton of sense to me I feel as though she's threadspewed from the townreads on her, but, selfishly, I want to stay in the game longer and I think the keep should be resolved first. I feel like I'm able to play better after flips are on the table.

hi.

[absinthe]

From my own end I shut down the talk about Ana because it's been talked about enough.

sigh.

[absinthe]

From my own end I shut down the talk about Ana because it's been talked about enough.

sigh.

I'm not sure what this is for

rainchecks not submitted.

[absinthe]

So.

What I said about 'there has to be scum in Briar/Absin/Ana' didn't really get as much attention as I'd thought. Sure Absin talked about it with me but that's because she's apart of it. It's just more likely you respond to someone calling your name out regardless of alignment. I finally got a decent nap in so I just want to say I feel a bit more prepared. I'm not willing to call all 3 town but do I agree with the majority on Ana. The initial interaction with her was my own impetus. I don't really think Ana comes in ready to die as scum and hopes the gambit just works out. She basically would have to assume Absin/Briar would feel bad for her and tinfoil the other. I also think everyone's response to her claims makes me believe she doesn't really have partners to go along with the "Plan" either. I don't really know where she sees me/s_s/infinity and my biggest guess would be that she thinks S_S is frustrated that Briar/Absin/Ana all happened to find each other as town. Placing those 3 in 'have to have scum together' was more of a comfort to me as I didn't want to believe S_S/Infinity/Lukewarm/Catboi/Dunn comprised a whole scumteam. Mind you there's more than 3 there. I still don't really feel that way, even if the person I suspect the most out of there is catboi.

underwhelming.

[absinthe]

So.

What I said about 'there has to be scum in Briar/Absin/Ana' didn't really get as much attention as I'd thought. Sure Absin talked about it with me but that's because she's apart of it. It's just more likely you respond to someone calling your name out regardless of alignment. I finally got a decent nap in so I just want to say I feel a bit more prepared. I'm not willing to call all 3 town but do I agree with the majority on Ana. The initial interaction with her was my own impetus. I don't really think Ana comes in ready to die as scum and hopes the gambit just works out. She basically would have to assume Absin/Briar would feel bad for her and tinfoil the other. I also think everyone's response to her claims makes me believe she doesn't really have partners to go along with the "Plan" either. I don't really know where she sees me/s_s/infinity and my biggest guess would be that she thinks S_S is frustrated that Briar/Absin/Ana all happened to find each other as town. Placing those 3 in 'have to have scum together' was more of a comfort to me as I didn't want to believe S_S/Infinity/Lukewarm/Catboi/Dunn comprised a whole scumteam. Mind you there's more than 3 there. I still don't really feel that way, even if the person I suspect the most out of there is catboi.

underwhelming.

savage

credit to the old rasputin

[absinthe]

In terms of generalised strategy or particular people?

either.

both.

any.

talk to me.

[absinthe]

In my heart I think it was a good post and that's what matters, even if you found it 'underwhelming'

Love yourself before you can love others

assuming you've met your basic maslow hibachi of needs and can love yourself, then what are your thoughts on the rest of this knot?

[absinthe]

and lukewarm? he's part of the knot.

[absinthe]

S_S as a main townread is spicy.

[absinthe]

His abacus and numbers is appealing to me

I get this.

But.

The only time I really, genuinely townread S_S he was pursuing the player that Syr and I had basically outed as the likely traitor in a dethy. Even then it took his mason buddy crumbing like crazy to keep my concerns at bay the next game day.

My impression of town-S_S is that he has trouble getting his foot into a game, and when he does, he seems almost more concerned about the health of the gamestate than about working out his reads.

Although I'm not seeing the stuff I noticed about his scum game when I meta'd him a few months ago, I'm also not seeing some of the stuff I associate with his towngame.

Maybe my glasses need adjustment.

[absinthe]

catboi.

[absinthe]

In terms of generalised strategy or particular people?

either.

both.

any.

talk to me.

Hmm, my feeling was that I was content to slot townreads in the keep and then to let the chips fall where they may - I felt like there wasn't a lot of point in trying to micromanage everyone and I felt like letting peopl decide on their own might be more revealing. It's easy for scum to simply defer their decision to others and thereby abdicate responsibility for their actions, whereas here they'd have to justify it. Having read a lot of the arguments about straegy on the previous pages, I would agree that putting multiple scumreads in one location seems preferable - although trying to force a 3/3 is impossible, any potential swap is valuable in terms of the information it provides. As thngs stand now though, unwnd is feeling a bit...cornered in his responses. I don't mind ana's suggested groupings although I'd probably swap in dunn at the wall in place of something_smart. I'm fine with either you or Luke being at the keep.

Where do you want to be?

[absinthe]

I don't have an objection.

I feel like players are getting poe'd into minigames and I'm curious if they're copacetic.

[absinthe]

absinthe - in 54 you said you were cautiously optimistic about unwnd's alignment, but in 120 you suggested Dunn saying he "feels" town is "a little premature". What's the difference there, exactly?

I answered this directly to Dunn.

Unwnd feels town to me

Sure this isn't a little premature?

Why would it be?

That was a gentle jibe about your objections to me being townread quickly in WH13. And a note-to-self that you've put out an early townread on a skilled player.

Dunn and I went back and forth for much of the Warehouse 13 Day 1 about which early-early townreads on me he was calling weird and why, among other things. He thought the townreads on my hydra with Nacho were incautious and unwarranted.

It's basically a meme that I give out easy townreads during the first few pages of a game. It's very rare for me to get a scumread that quickly. So rare that I'm not even sure what my accuracy rate is. I have no idea who anastasia is, but she's obviously familiar enough with me to string together some exaggerations that don't look too off base to players who don't have a lot of with me.

Mostly I was heckling him, but I do wonder about the ease of that read.

I don't think it's hypocritical, all I said was they feel town, I didn't assert that they're for sure town like people were doing in W 13.

In W13, the town needed to decide who would get an artifact (an invention of unknown benefits and drawbacks) during the first 48 hours of every game day. On day 1, there was very little data upon which to make those decisions, and I think that alone led to more emphatic reads (or at least more emphatic written expressions of reads) than would be typical during early-early day 1.

There were a few strongly stated reads early on in this game and they didn't seem to bother you. This is a totally different sort of setup, but the stakes are also pretty high.

I'm not shading you here, particularly for having different behaviors, just noting the differences and wondering what I can do with that info. I wish I had more of a read of you.

[absinthe]

I feel like the chances are low, even though I think your solve is probably close.

I can't believe I need to suggest both of you that it isn't lol

This stance is balanced on your S_S read. :/

[absinthe]

My head hurts from trying to figure this out. Can someone I TR just tell me what location to lock myself into (personally preference of keep>wall>gate)

This is what I'm waiting to see from Briar.

[absinthe]

I feel like the chances are low, even though I think your solve is probably close.

I can't believe I need to suggest both of you that it isn't lol

This stance is balanced on your S_S read. :/

It..does?

I don't think my comment was earthshaking. more like, so trivial why did I even post it?

"close" implies at most 1 bad read in the 3p solve.

You say anastasia's solve isn't close.

From your perspective, if you're town, the solve not being close means you're townreading at least one other person in the solve.

You've expressed a townread of S_S.

[absinthe]

I'm finding it kinda hard to pull out the main points/themes of your iso. Maybe it's a leftover impression from when you were rainchecking.

[absinthe]

if you have one now, what is your direction?

[absinthe]

I think right now I should stop trying to force an outcome. My direction is basically just respond naturally to things instead of proving points and getting into 10 page arguments over expectation

I'm turning a new leaf, my reads haven't changed regardless

This post emphasizes to me how much trouble I have (in general, not specific to this game) in understanding how you approach mafia. Like, I doubt that our approaches are so different as to be mutually incomprehensible, but I'm never sure if we wind up on the same page.

I think it's a me problem, because I don't get the impression that other players have trouble figuring out what you're doing.

"forcing an outcome" in this setup suggests to me "forcing how the three mini-games get filled", but I don't think that's what you mean. Maybe it's more about not wanting people to just ~decide~ which mini game they're joining and for there to be some kind or rigor, or process, or consensus involved.

I'm still mostly focused on figuring out which minigame I'll be able to do the most good in, and I'm anxious to make that choice and I'm frustrated about waiting to see if I'm welcome in the keep group.

I think my approach almost always is something like "responding naturally to things", though I'd probably not describe it that way.

[absinthe]

explain the reasons?

[absinthe]

I'm actually a bit surprised you have some trouble with me, given you've seen me from a mod perspective I think twice now? Maybe once

One newbie game, I think? It probably did help, but there's a huge difference for me in being above the fray and informed versus sifting through a game uninformed.

And your not knowing that I struggle to figure you out isn't too surprising given that this is the first game where I've felt like figuring you out asap is needed. I don't have the luxury of waiting for data to come to me, and I can't rely on a stake in the ground's reads to jump-start my own reads process.

Like, say, Anastasia's issues with your approach to me come down to their feelings about my scum game. Those are feelings I wouldn't expect you to share. I'd expect you to approach me as just another player with a 33% likelihood of being scum, whom you probably have some decent level of confidence that you can read (mostly because I consider myself to be a fairly easy townread as town unless I'm having a really, really off game for some reason).

Anastasia's a town read, but I'm skeptical of any read of theirs that is based on someone showing or not showing outsized paranoia of me.

So, there goes my easiest stake in the ground.

And writing all this helps me articulate my overall difficulty in seeing into your play. I have all these expectations, but I don't get a lot of confirmation that the expectations are met, or are even correct when I look at your posts. I sometimes feel like your reply doesn't map obviously back to my post (or another's post sometimes if you're replying to them).

I get that sometimes a reply just uses a post as a jumping off place into what you actually want to say. It feels like a high proportion of your posts are of that nature, though, and I wonder if that's the disconnect -- that you are actually making a straightforward reply and I'm just failing at seeing it that way.

I'm not sure what this conversation nets for me. I want to get better at following what you're saying about the game. It's critical info and if you're town and you're on a roll, then I'm missing out on really valuable stuff (thinking about the Tenet game here). I've been just struggling along with it, because I don't get the sense in others' conversations with you that they are having similar issues.

Anyway. Like I said. Probably a me-thing.

[absinthe]

One of them was already explained, which is that it's good to have no more than two townread players at the Keep, seeing as we only need one to end up there post-swap.
The other is that the Wall is the hardest minigame and you're the kind of person who would give us a good shot at winning it

I don't think you have any idea just how little ELO practice I get, statistically speaking, especially as town. I'm good enough at obvtowning that I wind up nk'ed early A LOT.

[absinthe]

Briar has expressed some reservations about Anastasia, yeah.

I think I'm more strongly townreading Anastasia than Briar is.

If I didn't have a healthy respect for the scum game of the player I think Anastasia is, I'd go so far as to say I'm more strongly townreading them than Briar, herself. Part of the issue is having no freakin idea who Briar's main is.

[absinthe]

I've always said that I'm an ideosyncratic player. And my obvtownness is also ideosyncratic, and not everyone sees that wavelength.

But, absinthe IS very good at obvtowning! Probably has something to do with the amped up brashness.

I'm a little sad about this being a swan song.

[absinthe]

yeah, absinthe was mostly cursed with my tendency to die early, too.

It sounds like knowing who your main is won't help me all that much so, don't unless it suits your needs to do so.

[absinthe]

feeling very third-wheelish atm!

Anyway, I'm flattered at the suggestions I should be in the difficult minigame. Maybe I'm being a bit twice-stung if not downright cowardly about wanting to be in the Keep.

I seriously doubt I'd be IC'd in the Gate. Maybe the Wall isn't the worst possible fate of these scenarios.

[absinthe]

Luke would be my choice of the uncommitted players.

I'm going to give it a few hours for serious objections and then vote keep unless convinced it's super suboptimal of me. I guess the main objection would be that I wouldn't be around very long to weigh in on the rest of the mini-games.

[absinthe]

Luke would be my choice of the uncommitted players.

I'm going to give it a few hours for serious objections and then vote keep unless convinced it's super suboptimal of me. I guess the main objection would be that I wouldn't be around very long to weigh in on the rest of the mini-games.

I don't think it's suboptimal and I'm fine with it personally because like... even if it is suboptimal at worst I think what happens is that one of the three of us gets shuffled somewhere else and we have to deal with it.

I don't think that's "at worst". That's at best IMO. At worst, we all three wake up in the keep day 2 and a paranoia spiral ensues.

[absinthe]

Luke would be my choice of the uncommitted players.

I'm going to give it a few hours for serious objections and then vote keep unless convinced it's super suboptimal of me. I guess the main objection would be that I wouldn't be around very long to weigh in on the rest of the mini-games.

I assume by this choice you don't townread him as much?

As much as whom?

[absinthe]

That's rainchecked for now

It felt a bit (without offending) like an excited child. I don't think he really thought through what it would mean to either of us and just sort of threw it out there. Do you think that lack of consideration is more telling of him as scum?

I want to come back to this. I was curious how you felt about playing out that wall composition first, with your thoughts about lukewarm for suggesting it or about my reaction to the idea secondary.

[absinthe]

I seriously doubt I'd be IC'd in the Gate.

Why? It feels like you're pretty widely TRed

Just my thoughts about what I'd want in an IC there if I were scum.

[absinthe]

lol that's such a breakthrough for me and there's no one in this player list to appreciate it.

[absinthe]

Honestly I feel pretty good about my TRs on briar and ana, which means I think I like putting someone I also TR strongly at the keep. Absinthe would not be that player for me, but I do feel better about her than I did before.

The chances of any specific group of 3 being town is about 18% if I did my math right, which seems like something that's reasonable to try and go for. I also feel like it's reasonable to try and go for putting 2 scum in the same group (probably the wall) if we can. Then the gate could contain some null reads. Thoughts?

I'm having difficulty engaging readswise and my reads feel pretty stagnant though I feel like some are wrong. (To summarize, that's unwnd, absinthe, ana, luke and briar as town, dunn as null, and s_s and catboi as scumleans).

So let me try to work through the mechanics at least. If we try to put a third townread at the keep, we have a decent chance of putting 3 town in there. Say it's ana, briar, and absinthe. If we succeed, the best swap scum can do is probably putting one of those 3 into the gate. Ideally we'd put 2 scum in the wall if that's the case, which lets us have an extra townie in the wall and some WIFOM info about who we think scum would swap. I think I've talked myself into wanting a scummy player in the keep though, because if we have 3 town in the keep and 2 scum at the gate it's not great for us anyway. Especially since I TR unwnd and they're already at the wall.

Infinity, your read of me changes. Your strategy for how to stack the keep changes, and all of the changes seem to come down to the same answer for you.

[absinthe]

That I shouldn't be in the keep?

[absinthe]

Where do you want to be now?

[absinthe]

The problem I have with you being at the keep IF you're town is that it vastly simplifies who to move out of the keep

I feel like a briar/anastasia/me keep is 1) 100% town and 2) a bit more of a challenge for scum to work out the best swap.

[absinthe]

I feel not quite as good about a briar/anastasia/luke keep but I think it's more of a conundrum for scum than briar/anastasia/you.

[absinthe]

One of them was already explained, which is that it's good to have no more than two townread players at the Keep, seeing as we only need one to end up there post-swap.
The other is that the Wall is the hardest minigame and you're the kind of person who would give us a good shot at winning it

I don't think you have any idea just how little ELO practice I get, statistically speaking, especially as town. I'm good enough at obvtowning that I wind up nk'ed early A LOT.

I have found that the key is obvtowning, but with terrible reads. I have yet to be Night Killed in any game I have played in, despite being widely town read Day 1 in a couple of them

Spoiler:

I have yet to be in the ghost chat of any game I have been in. That might be neat one day

Yeah, bad reads are often a ticket to further into the game. It kinda depends on the composition of the scum team. kinda. Also depends on whether PRs have been forced to out.

[absinthe]

<3 Luke

With Luke's decision, there's no one else I'm willing to entertain as a Keep choice.

VOTE: Keep

[absinthe]

(also, I have a guess about Briar and Ana's mains, which I am looking forward to figuring out if they are right)

I do too.

Tempted to PM my guesses to the mod as a postgame "game".

[absinthe]

With Luke's decision, there's no one else I'm willing to entertain as a Keep choice.

Wh-

Well okay then.

You're surprised?

[absinthe]

VOTE: Wall

Interesting.

[absinthe]

I don't know what I'm supposed to make of Dunnstral picking the Wall if anything.

You can make of it that S_S just said he wanted Infinity at the wall and Dunn made a move that makes it impossible.

[absinthe]

You're surprised?

Well I thought you had Ana and Briar both as town?

I do. And I think this forces an unhappy choice on scum.

[absinthe]

[absinthe]

Not what I expected.

Not what I wanted.

[absinthe]

I was ready to flare up my confbias on catboi but over the night my thought on S_S has diminished a little bit

Explain?

[absinthe]

Not going to accept that as a townslip.

[absinthe]

Oh wow I was wrong

About what?

[absinthe]

Hahaha, okay.

I miss you absinthe, and I am so sorry Infinity.

Can I still have a glass of wine?

[absinthe]

Okay, so my strategy is basically I think we should just like, let the three of us at the Keep throw around our reads a bit and then hammer in there; I am almost positive Infinity is scum, but on the off chance Ana is being a rapscallion playing in her silly ways I don't want to freeze out Infinity entirely; that and she has to try and to like, do /something/ unless she's just not going to post at all and concede the point to town to avoid associatives.

Infinity is confirmed scum because absinthe is confirmed town at the keep

Look, you don't know Ana. She's a real trickster. An imp. Prone to the most chaotic of moves you've ever seen. She'll do something you'll never expect as scum just because she can. Because she wants to. For the thrill of a good gambit. There's nothing that could tame that wild spirit within her that just wants to see the world burn down and I am the only person here armed with a fire hose ready to extinguish it if she's on a path of destruction.

I agree with this assessment of Ana's scum game. but I kinda doubt she's scum. But it doesn't matter. I'm townreading Briar. And this is not the worst of all possible worlds!

[absinthe]

absinthe, would you say you're the kind of person who would make your own decision or would you pick what others are saying?

Or at least, how do you think you would be perceived prior to being swapped into the Gate and turned IC. I think Ana would have went with their own reads

How would you have perceived me coming into Day 2?

[absinthe]

Anyways, last two scum are Lukewarm and catboi

I don't think Luke is scum. To me, the wall comes down to you or unwnd.

[absinthe]

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

Tell me about your S_S, catboi reads then.

[absinthe]

remember the scum on the Gate can't really bus the scum on the Wall if the Keep is already townsided.

I mean they can if they don't expect to be believed...

Right now I'm leaning unwnd scum at the Wall

I remember the bit about thinking he was trying to tie you two together. Is there more?

[absinthe]

Like, reading over this it feels like Infinity actually wants S_S dead versus catboi who is a scumread but like, not a lot of meat there?

Is infinity fairly inexperienced as scum?

Spoiler:

I feel like the amount of direct "you" posts re S_S vs more 3rd person re catboi could mean something.

How's this for a towntell

If I'm scum then we had six options and this seems like the literal worst one. Not only would we have chosen me over Infinity to try to carry the Gate, but we would have picked the IC to be someone who has demolished scum-me before and whose towngame I respect immensely. I don't know who Briar and Ana are but I highly doubt that I would be more scared of them as scum than I would be of ffery.

That demolishment was a long time ago. In our more recent games, I haven't been so much a ball of town fire.

[absinthe]

That demolishment was a long time ago. In our more recent games, I haven't been so much a ball of town fire.

you were good in antechamber!

We nailed the traitor, yes.

my hesitance about scum-Bell, and my not pushing harder for a DS elim, though. Sad.

Do you feel like your scum game is weaker than Infinity's?

[absinthe]

Not what I expected.

Not what I wanted.

I saw this as a possibility. Part of the reason I decided against going Keep, and gave it to you. But yeah, lots to process

It was a possibility, yeah, but I thought Briar was far more of a UTR than I was on day 1 and was more likely to be swapped out/IC'd. I spent N1 thinking about Anastasia vs {any/alla yas} in the Keep, though I thought the Gate was more likely to have 2 scum than the Wall.

Personally, I'd rather we solved the Gate first

Tell me about your S_S, catboi reads then.

s_s is towny because he made good points when he said we shouldn't talk anymore, and realizing it was correct for him to hammer the gate without talking.

catboi is close to null but leans scum because he was focused way more on talking about how I was shading ana/briar than what I was actually talking about. Notable is that the scum team completely gave up on winning the keep. Today, catboi talked about flipping the keep first as if it were the most natural thing when I don't believe that is the case, and I think that's calculated

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Absin do you really think I'm just being double-bussed lol

heh. It could be worse. You could have to figure out which one to vote.

Would this game have been harder if scum had scumclaimed and locked themself in the keep day 1, yes or no?

I don't see anyone here who would kamikaze as scum

That includes ana

I would. I would have locked myself into the keep. It's not like I was particularly townread.

That's also not what I asked, I asked if it would be harder, not if scum would actually do it

So what, like a feint? Scumclaim just to prove a point?

...Do you still not understand?

I'm saying that on day 1, mafia would have a greater chance of winning the game if they put someone in the keep.

It 'sacrifices' somebody, but

in reality, that player was lost anyway

, so they're not losing anything. If they don't do that, they'll have to send someone to the keep, and it's very unlikely that the person they send gets picked or even treated as anything other than mafia.

This is what happened here. They let absinthe take the slot, and then infinity got sent over and they confirmed absinthe as to have the least impact because it doesn't matter who of absinthe or infinty was scum if the keep was resolved first by choosing briar or ana, and then that reveals the alignment of infinity and gives an idea on absinthe.

If they had put infinity in during day 1, the day would have probably ended in a 1-1-1 split, or maybe some variation of 2-0-1/0-2-1. The wifom potential would be there, either way, making it a lot harder to figure things out.

Right now there's 2 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep (as scum)

If somebody had sacrificed themself:

There would be 3 people being considered in the Gate, 3 people being considered in the Wall, 1 person being considered in the Keep

No, there was always going to be an IC at the Gate.

[absinthe]

and I mean my opinion of your skill is not going to go down over time unless I've seen you play badly, which I wouldn't really say I have? you were good in Illicit too

pedit: @absinthe

Illicit was not my best game. :/

And there's Tenet.

I'm more interested in why this configuration was the least bad for scum, and what that says about who the scum are.

[absinthe]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

[absinthe]

Have you said which you want to flip first? Is it the Gate?

Yeah, the gate

I'm not likely to be in a hurry, so.

You think the wall is better?

I think it should be Keep-->Gate-->Wall

[absinthe]

I think his point is that two scum in the wall is better than two scum in the gate because it gives us an extra IC

Not following this?

[absinthe]

the scum are forced to swap you into the 2 scum group.

if the 2 scum are at the wall, then you get swapped into the wall but dont become an IC, they must give us an additional IC at the gate.

if the 2 scum are at the gate, then you get swapped into the gate and become an IC.

ah ok. a sort of pseudo IC.

[absinthe]

See now you're just trying to win my heart, saying that in my time of need

I mean I've played plenty of positions sitting in the seat you are now where I'm being held to some absurd standard because my opponents happen to be able to clear themselves off things that shouldn't exist so I feel a great deal of sympathy for you.[/quote

~grumble vanilla cops grumble~

[absinthe]

In the interests of not having half this table informed tiptoeing around my identity/meta when I’m not actively hiding it: I’m Ydrasse.

I was right!

[absinthe]

Speaking of votes: when is the best time for us to flip? Assuming Keep first is still the preferred move — the other groups will be harder to resolve but I don’t know when it’s best to give up our presence vs. confirmed flips.

I want your and anastasia's thoughts about the Gate (catboi vs S_S as town) for my own sake, and of course ALL the thoughts about the Wall in case I screw up the Gate.

I have more of a handle on S_S's towngame. I played twice(?) with catboi in 2013-2014. I haven't gone back to look at those games, but iirc in one he was town and in the other he was scum (and ironically I replaced into an IC slot). I feel like meta that stale is probably not all that useful. I've spectated a couple games that town-catboi played and I feel like there's a lot of alignment ambiguity in his town game.

[absinthe]

S_S you might be surprised at what is most concerning to me about you this game.

[absinthe]

Hm, it's actually to my advantage to guess it, isn't it.

Is it the way I've been talking about mechanics?

No.

[absinthe]

No.

Mm. My only other guess would be that I seem too confident in my unwnd scumread but I'm not sure if you know me THAT well.

That's not it either.

[absinthe]

Welp, I'm out of ideas then. Guess I failed the pop quiz.

It has to do with your interactions with me.

[absinthe]

I'm back to dunn being scum I think, I think luke and unwnd are both outside of any reasonable assumption I can make of their scumrange

How would you describe unwnd's scum play/range?

[absinthe]

You can call it a soulread I guess.

Ok, what specifically about his play looks beyond the scumrange of 90%+ of MS players?

[absinthe]

It has to do with your interactions with me.

Hmm. I feel like my interactions with you have been pretty typical? Get an early townread, and then spend the rest of the game flattering you.

I don't think it's been typical. But, I think the fact that this is the first open game I've played with you pushes things a little off the "typical" map of our interactions.

From meta, I've seen how incredibly focused town-you can be on mechanically solving a game.

I don't think you've ever spent any part of a game flattering me. I've always felt like I make the initial reachouts, or we don't interact much at all.

[absinthe]

You can call it a soulread I guess.

Ok, what specifically about his play looks beyond the scumrange of 90%+ of MS players?

For unwnd to be scum he would have to have crafted a seamless narrative of how he can and can't approach reading people in this game. Every time there's something that's opaque for him he comes in with the perfect emotional tenor, perfect level of frustration, and incredible depth of his thought process. It would be such an immense talent to be able to put yourself in a town mindset so deeply to be able to fake that.

Can you give a couple of examples of this?

[absinthe]

I am floundering re getting a read on catboi here.

[absinthe]

964 and 1456 (and the progression after that) were really good examples, I can find others if you want @ffery

964 confused me because I feel like the differences in how unwnd and I approach the game outweigh the similarities. I felt more able to read him as a waller than how he currently plays. And he plays a considerably more opaque game than I think I do (from my viewpoint, I'm too transparent and usually have already blurted something out by the time I realize I might should have held a card closer to my vest).

1456 - I tend to townread irritability, and I sense the irritability in those posts, but the content is objectively NAI to me.

[absinthe]

Luke, do you have a Gate solve?

[absinthe]

Luke, do you have a Gate solve?

Same question to unwnd

[absinthe]

I don't think you've ever spent any part of a game flattering me. I've always felt like I make the initial reachouts, or we don't interact much at all.

I definitely have flattered you in my head. Maybe I didn't verbalize it as much because you were in a hydra in most of our games and it made it hard for me to tell who was posting, but like... I've always had a high opinion of your play.

As for the reachouts, well I bet that has to do with the game being smaller and open, as you said. Certainly, based on our history and how I generally play around people whose towngames I respect, I don't think I'd be trying to interact with you

more

as scum.

Do you spectate games frequently?

[absinthe]

Do you spectate games frequently?

No. I'll sometimes read random parts of games I'm not in, but I rarely follow them from start to finish.

I'm surprised you were aware of this alt's past games.

[absinthe]

Do you mind if I ask who your friend in the Walking Dead game was?

[absinthe]

I'm sorry...the Midsummer Night's Dream game.

[absinthe]

that was a brutal game. the 3rd party actively played to help scum. :/

anyway.

It surprised/surprises me that anyone would remember this alt well enough to look forward to playing with it, but eh. I did think that absinthe meta would be fairly easy for players to acquire, and that meta definitely supports my page 1 statement about being good at finding town (why I wanted to go to the keep) and good at being transparently town (why my second choice was the Gate). Though the Midsummer Nights game was a sort of counter-example.

I wish I could have at least gone a few pages before alt slipping. The interactions could have been helpful.

[absinthe]

What are your thoughts about how to use the 3 minigames?

I got into that in 167, put your townreads in the keep, do whatever for the others. I think trying to game the IC at the gate is a bit of a waste of time, mafia are going to choose who they want as IC no matter what so it's not like they can be forced into making a bad choice. I'm mostly indifferent to how people arrange themselves in the other two.

I was actually going to type a bit more but I want to save those thoughts until after the assignments are finalized.

Did you ever get into these thoughts?

I've half a mind to just jump to the gate right now - I actually didn't mind lukewarm's suggestion earlier that I be the third at the keep, because I don't see scum motivation in Anastasia's play and although briar's play didn't make a ton of sense to me I feel as though she's threadspewed from the townreads on her, but, selfishly, I want to stay in the game longer and I think the keep should be resolved first. I feel like I'm able to play better after flips are on the table.

I need you to wrap some more words around your stance on joining/not joining the Keep.

In terms of generalised strategy or particular people?

either.

both.

any.

talk to me.

Hmm, my feeling was that I was content to slot townreads in the keep and then to let the chips fall where they may - I felt like there wasn't a lot of point in trying to micromanage everyone and I felt like letting peopl decide on their own might be more revealing. It's easy for scum to simply defer their decision to others and thereby abdicate responsibility for their actions, whereas here they'd have to justify it. Having read a lot of the arguments about straegy on the previous pages, I would agree that putting multiple scumreads in one location seems preferable - although trying to force a 3/3 is impossible, any potential swap is valuable in terms of the information it provides. As thngs stand now though, unwnd is feeling a bit...cornered in his responses. I don't mind ana's suggested groupings although I'd probably swap in dunn at the wall in place of something_smart. I'm fine with either you or Luke being at the keep.

When did your thoughts about me being at the keep change? And why?

Dunn's jump to the wall was weird but I don't see why he'd choose to put himself in a place with two people who already suspected him as scum

Why do you think he'd choose that as town?


re your 1146, my 704 was an attempt to give a hypothetical town-infinity a chance to talk about why she wasn't feeling motivated, and to do a reset if the response felt town.

Spoiler:

it didn't. :/

But, at any rate, it certainly wasn't a sign that I was townreading Something_Smart to a significantly greater degree than infinity at that point.

[absinthe]

I don't understand how everybody is looking at Luke write paragraphs on mech and thinking that they're either over their head or not a bold player

It seems obvious to me that they have some experience

In the Newbie game I played with town-Luke, I started to doubt my townread of him basically because he seemed too good to be true. And I spectated his next newbie game (he replaced into a game that included catboi) and almost immediately scumread him. There's a mechanics current to what he does in general that is alien to me because I emphasize reads much much much over mechanics and setup info. I think I've calibrated for that current, finally.