Open 811 - Lovers and Losers (New Game+) [Game Over]

[VFP]

Hello!

[VFP]

Are you in one of your tunneling moments, Radiant?

[VFP]

I didn't read anything you posted this page I just saw a lot of words so assumed you were doing your trick again.
Also that was auto correct.

[VFP]

I feel like I should vote you Kerset, who do you suggest is better for me to look at?

[VFP]

VOTE: Bambi Jay

That's a fair argument!

[VFP]

Are me and T bone confirmed to each other then?
I thought I read that there was a Mafia and Town together when the game went into sign ups?

[VFP]

UNVOTE: Bambi

Well there you have it.
So who are the actual pairings? And why can't I vote Kerset? Can we just not vote together?

[VFP]

You can vote Kerset and were voting for them up until you changed your vote lol

Catch up on the game, and then talk to me when you have so we can compare notes. I don't want to influence you too much, but I had to intervene to not put Bambi in lim territory.

Also to pre-empt anyone empty quoting this to go "but you just influenced them to not vote Bambi" suck it.

Got it.
I'll catch up by tonight.

[VFP]

So scum is just Kerset, Bingle, and Vex

VOTE: Kerset

[VFP]

Is this what you came to upon reading?

It's more I town read RM and Ana.
And Llama I town read while taking your Bambi read into account.
Leaving PoE!

[VFP]

@VFP - Can you give a quick summary of pre-game talk from lovers topic and what happened since then in it? Seems like shift have happened and want to confirm.

I don't really know what was said it was a lot of big words for my little brain.
There was talk about Google and some stuff but I don't think anything related to this game in particular.
Unless I was missing the bigger picture.

[VFP]

Vex voting Bingle instead of Kerset was most likely a way to try and distance without adding any additional pressure of the scum buddies.

[VFP]

Because of that brainfart/slip I am absolutely certain that Vex vs Bingle+Ker isn't a bus relationship, it's authentic.

do you think i would bus a partner in this setup?

Here for example.
It's not really bussing in thos situation.

If Vex thinks that Bingle is scum then the optimal play here is to lim Kerset. But instead Vex is asking Kerset to push Bingle as town.

[VFP]

tbf as well, i still do think rm/ana are town, and i still think bingle/kerset are scum.

Kerset is scum here for Vex, but again no vote.
It shouldn't matter the name if.both are dying...

[VFP]

i think my opinion on jingle/kerset is a little influenced by the fact this is my tryhard account, along with the idea i've had as scum before to more or less ignore the scum pt and play uninformed as possible

also kerset instead of deflecting onto others, why don’t you, y’know, try to defend yourself?

Looks to be telling scum to participate in the PT?
And to stop looking scummy.

I think Vex backed themselves into a corner and is pushing for the scum partners to resolve it.
Even small comments here and there about looking into VTs etc.

[VFP]

also, explanation on kerest being killed: they and bingle are lovers, so it doesn't really matter who i kill from the two, and since kerest is higher on the playerlist, i defaulted to them.
additionally, i'm utterly convinced rm is town, so i basically have a 50/50 on shooting scumlovers

Basically what I'm saying here, but no action to this comment?
If it doesn't matter, then why not put Keerest to E1 here?

[VFP]

Ignore the above, Kerset wasn't E2 at this point. But they were at a time of Vex posting.

[VFP]

Don't tell Smart we're onto him VFP.

Okay!

@Something Smart

You're town!

[VFP]

VFP how about you do basic research?

Great argument

VC 1.12

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (3)

- Klick, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Vex Vience (1)

- LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.
@tbone - how exactly do i feel different this game? i said my normal start got ruined by the reroll so i’m mostly just playing as korina with a different typing style.

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.

Given this, I think the real question Llama wants answered is why haven't you been trying to talk to Bambi in order to sort her?

because i simply haven’t had the motivation to actually try this game thus far, plus i work close to 40hrs/week and end up sleeping most of the day when I get home, so my time on the forums is limited

@llama if everyone/mostly everyone agrees you’re town, i’ll go along with it because it means it’s less effort for me, meaning the time i actually have free to read the game isn’t spent on other things

also, wrt time constraints, why would i lie about that to influence a game of mafia? yes this is my try-hard account, but i’m above trying to use things like that. not to mention i’m relatively certain i have actually mentioned on the site before my irl circumstances since it did lead to me siteflaking at several points. i will not answer anything further on this topic until post-game either, and i will likely only answer it in speakeasy, because i don’t want this to be publicly available unless i make it that.

For someone who was so set on Bingle and you as scum, they sure didn't care about you being on E2 here.
These are the posts that Vex made when you were E2.
Vex responds to a comment just after the VC and is clearly trying to get focus back into the VTs.

Vex looks like a defeatist here and the replace out doesn't look good regardless if there's a genuine reason or not.

[VFP]

But my point is as a whole.
Vex never swapped a vote to who they considered as out right scum.
Therefor bussing isn't really bussing here.

[VFP]

I mean, of course you don't agree with what I'm saying here because it negatively impacts you.

[VFP]

For the read itself, it's gut. Vex doesn't feel the same way they did last game. Whereas I absolutely townread Bambi, and Llama also doesn't feel the same to me as last game. If all my reads are correct, then Vex is the solve based on that. Do I know for sure? No, but that's where I'm at.

Here is T-Bones comment

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.
@tbone - how exactly do i feel different this game? i said my normal start got ruined by the reroll so i’m mostly just playing as korina with a different typing style.

This is a response to the above

Vote: Kerset

Here is vote 2

VOTE: Kerset

Here is vote 3

VC 1.11

With 9 votes, it takes 5 to eliminate

Kerset (3)

- Klick, T-Bone, Bambi Jay

T-Bone (2)

- Bingle, RationalMadman

Vex Vience (1)

- LlamaFluff

Bambi Jay (1)

- Kerset

Bingle (1)

- Vex Vience

Note Voting - Anastasia

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-05-23 22:00:00)

Here is the VC (edited before Vex posted)

Will look into it after work. Is this more of a scumread or a strong townread on RM/Ana?

Here is the first post after VC

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.
@tbone - how exactly do i feel different this game? i said my normal start got ruined by the reroll so i’m mostly just playing as korina with a different typing style.

Here is a response to the above.

We can assume Vex was caught up and was fully aware of the VC.
Yet, no vote?

[VFP]

VFP how about you do basic research?

[VFP]

Actually 603 is in regards to

@VV - Again, at what point do you feel you can read Bambi enough to make that the primary motivation for a vote in VT pool?

Which means that a full read up was done from Vex's last post before.

[VFP]

@llama - if me and bambi end up talking, i can probably sort them solely from that.

Given this, I think the real question Llama wants answered is why haven't you been trying to talk to Bambi in order to sort her?

because i simply haven’t had the motivation to actually try this game thus far, plus i work close to 40hrs/week and end up sleeping most of the day when I get home, so my time on the forums is limited

This is the post that confirms Vex had finished reading.
And no vote? No comment on what has occurred?

[VFP]

We live in two different universes.

*In mine I'm scum and I don't really know where else to go with this. Vex fucked us!

*In yours you're town and I'm low key impressed right now

Agreed

[VFP]

VFP please explain your read on Kerset and also what precisely in the vanillas is your read's reasoning? What's your read on Bambi? Your unvote on Bambi is solely due to Tbone saying he townreads her? Correct or incorrect?

PoE on scum Kersert
And yes. T- Bone is the only player I know won't have a scum motive here.

[VFP]

The difference in all three reactions to me asking VFP about lovers topic really is interesting. Will have to dig into that because those are three very different responses that seem to come from three different mindsets. First instinct is one town reaction, one null and one somewhat scummy.

Thats a fancy way to call us null as a whole.

[VFP]

Oh I thought you meant me, T bone, and klick.
Ignore that then.

[VFP]

I guess responding is an action.

[VFP]

Yeah if I'm scum I'm never falling for a trick to do with PTs.
But I know that Llama likes these minor slip attempts. The goal was obvious from Llama but a try is a try.

[VFP]

Nightless actually changes things here.
A lim on the scum lovers day 1 is an automatic win.

I'm going to think on it first then see where I go.

[VFP]

Hmm okay.

Well I still think it changes what direction I should go in.
So basically I just need 1 strong TR in the VT's and lim right today in the lovers.

This makes me read Vex differently though.

[VFP]

I mean by default of Tbone your my top townread but you didn't know the wincons coming in? Geez.

I replaced in.
My wincon is just to get all mafia. Although wrong, it's understandable to assume scum also have a generic win con.

[VFP]

So I have 1 game with RM, yet he is confident that I'm a competent player as town.
What gives this impression, RM?

[VFP]

I read your other games, most are ongoing from what I see though therefore I can't give details.

As a 'newbie' you knew how to breadcrumb your tracker report on day 2 of the game we played and you even made sure to put Rathe at the bottom of your townreads to make very clear what you were doing to a more observant player. That game is over so I can say that.

You also read Andante and many players in that game we played well despite being as I said, a 'newbie'. You replaced in there too, showing how fast you can read a game and know your situation/surroundings, you also softed being a PR to me when I asked your role on Day 1 though you could have replied the same implicit hint as a VT to me asking your role.

If I was to read up and be competent as town, then why wouldn't I read up and be competent as scum as well?

Also, he's a town game from me. I was a bus driver.

I did a bus drive on you and BBmolla. The roleblock if true was intended for you.
I cant see a way that my action caused or assisted in a kill on Mafia Pizza.

This wasn't so much as of a lie, but more I was back and fourth on swapping Math Pizza / Math BBmolla in my mind.
I thought I ended with Math BBmolla but obviously I didn't.

[VFP]

I’d like other people to look at our interactions and see if they see the same thing.

I don't see it.

[VFP]

I actually want to see where SS votes.

[VFP]

I think Llama's right for what it's worth.

[VFP]

VOTE: Anastasia

So originally I was thinking about this the entire wrong dirtection.
I still think Vex is scum, but in the game mode pushing scum buddies as scum at any point is bad.

It's the same as saying that if me and T-bone are scum, then Bambi would have to be as well.

Vex had Ana and RM as set town basically while scum reading Bingle / Kerset and having me and T-Bone on the back burner.

These are the scum teams

RM / Ana / SS
Kerset / Bingle / Llama
Me / T-Bone / Bambi

RM talking about me as if he can read my meta game after 1 game I replaced into.
But it's not so much as having a meta read, but to go to the assumption that I don't make mistakes or miss things in games.

[VFP]

Walk me through this more love.

I'm probably not the best person to explain my thoughts.
But basically, Vex/SS is scum here. The entire ISO is them keeping RM and Ana on the town programme while marinating the other lims.

Original with night happening, I felt that scum would kill in the VTs and distance lovers to VT.
With it being nightless scum can't manipulate the kills to point towards suspects. This means scum have to get the 2 mis lims in a row.

Vex says over and over that he can sort Klick but makes no effort in sorting Klick or progression. This means that it's more of a place holder or a soother, leaving to sort to happen tomorrow after Kerset and Bingle are gone.
This makes for an easy follow up of why Klick is scum tomorrow.
RM and Ana are just placed in the always town section meaning that they never have to be sorted, and with no NK there's no impaction to them making the kill.

I disagree with Bingle that you want to go for the town look here, purely because bussing is such a common meta on this site. You get less credit than deserved and have no manipulation with NK's to suit the narrative.

RM directly just seems to be making up meta, in a way to suit a push.
As explained, I replaced into a game and told read someone due to knowing my role and their claim.
We eliminated scum and the PoE was 2 players. 1 I tracked who didn't kill and 1 left for the lim the next day.

This play was more the game sorting itself over anyone being competent.
Yet, RM is set on such a strange argument towards me. As if it's to justify voting there.

[VFP]

Can we just do the VTs first?

Which VT?

[VFP]

How do you know we can 100% hit scum?

What is the benefit of hitting the scum lovers first vs hitting the scum VT?

Less fake pushes?
Kill 2 scum, there's 1 un truthful pish.
Kill 1 scum, there's 2 un truthful pushes.

Not to mention the fact you only get 2 genuine town thought processes to 4.

[VFP]

Name it, what meta did I make up? I justify my votes always, how is that a scumtell? I am not going to ever fear justifying a vote because I'll be framed for my reasoning. That is futile fear.

You are not new to mafia, that much I'm certain of. You're new to the website, not to mafia. You're to be read as a very seasoned player, which isn't false meta and I highlighted what alerted me to this about you.

Actually I've been on the website since 2013. This has no impact to how I play though. My main makes a lot of derp mistakes.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

You'd read it as Town I am sure.

I read your other games, most are ongoing from what I see though therefore I can't give details.

This is the meta you are trying to use.
You say there is no way I do something or don't do something as town. What makes you so sure I do something as town? When I have already proven that as town I make derp moments?
The fact of saying you read my other games, but conveniently the ones you can argue isn't in question. Your obviously saying that you read games of mine that have finished, hence the word "most". Give me an explanation from the finished games where I am always aware of the game rules, claims, and what everyone has said.

You won't be able to, because I strongly doubt you read any of my games. I can't speak for on going games, but I don't believe you got this impression from any of my games.
If you read any of my games, you would know that doubling down here is probably the worst thing you can do.

As I asked before, why do I read the game rules as town, but not as scum?

[VFP]

There is absolutely nothing in here I can reoly to or defend. Your theory is that as scum myself and/or Ana asked Vex to Townread us in the public thread, correct? Furthermore, something about this stated theory irks me, you're logic puts you in with Bambi and sets in stone an attachment to VT claims... I believe that is the team, so I am not arguing against it but why do that?

Are you suggesting Scum don't distance or engineer conflict between themselves? Obviously they don't have to but your logic relies on a 100% assurance Scum wouldn't. I don't comprehend why you'd suggest and rely on that.

Incorrect. I never mentioned that you asked them to town read you.
Again, if you read my games like advised you would understand that I do this. So this is proof again that you did not read any of my games. Would you lie about that as town?

And yes, scum will not be pushing their buddies this game.

[VFP]

I think it's Llama because the way he's quietly trying to take control feels like the same thing he did last game as scum.

It's just more subtle this time.

Llama must just do this as town or scum then, as this is what Llama did as town in my last game.
Which game was Llama scum for you?

This is town Llama taking control of the game on replace in.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=85940

The more untruthful pushes there are, the more lies/evidence there is to catch.

If we miss in lovers we need only 1 mis-vote from any of 4 town-side players and scum can quick-vote to lose the game.

If we miss in vt we still need 2 mis-votes to lose.

The base probability set on a miss is still a 50-50 in either situation, however the margin of error is worse.

How did you get to this?
We lim VT
We lim VT we lose due to the special rule

We lim VT
We lim town lovers we lose due to it being 3 v 3

That is 2 mis lims.

We lim town lovers
we lim town lovers we lose due to it being 3 v 2

we lim town lovers
we lim VT we lose due to it being 3 v 3

This is also 2 mis lims.

There is no benefit to voting the VT first, other than argueing a mis lim.
But we are aiming for scum, not town so the mindset should be on the lovers.

[VFP]

the last game before we re-rolled

this time he made a conscious effort to be more passive and only began being more active/controlly towards the end of day

So what's the indication that this is Llama scum? I don't understand.

[VFP]

if we elim town lovers game state is:

4 town
3 Mafia

if 1 town player votes the wrong lover pair, the 3 mafia can quickvote speed elim.


if we elim town vt game state is:
4 town
4 mafia

you need 2 town players to vote wrong before mafia can quick vote.
margin of error is different.

1st of all, VT lim is 5 town, 3 scum, but I think you meant this.
I re read the below and I mis read originally.

If we miss in vt we still need 2 mis-votes to lose.

However, you're putting a bad argument into play.
On a lovers mis lim you get the below.

4 lovers voting
3 VT's with 2 town mindset. The argument is that the VT could be wrong. The only argument is town VT should never just vote willy nilly. Othewrwise it's the same with 2 town voting within the 6 lovers.
For example, if we lim VT (lets assume Llama for argumet sake).

Tomorrow we have to lim in the VT's which is then a 50% chance. Since the lovers would be a 33% chance.
Getting it wrong loses.

When we mis lim lovers we have the below.
50% chance to lim the right lovers, and 33% on the VT. There's no actualy difference.
It's purely down to if town are wrong or not. More town means more chance of town being wrong so it cancels each other out.

I've also pointed out why 2 mafia is better than 1, so if it comes to a 50% over a 33% chance then it should favour in the lovers.

[VFP]

Because Town care more about what's written in big bold text about the game especially when replacing in. Scum are more intrigued in what's in their PT simple to understand. Some players aren't observant and won't read all rules in detail (I skimread, myself) but you ignored a major thing written in massive bold text.

Wut?
That's wrong for a start. However, your argument is that town me doesn't do it because of meta. Why does my meta suggest that I do it as town and not scum?

[VFP]

Which account? You broke rules by entering the Newbie game as a Newbie and not as an SE then, didn't you?

No. newbiews have 24hours to take the slot otherwise a newbie can take the slot.
I joined after 24hours of no one taking the slot.

Be pretty careful when acusing someone of breaking rules.

[VFP]

In the game we played, you didn't have a single derp moment and had plenty of the opposite. That is how.

I already stated how the game state fell into place though.
But your argument was reading my games. Are you saying that none of my other games I have a derp moment?

[VFP]

You implied it. Why else would Vex not want to distance themselves from what you are saying as their scum-partner pair of lovers?

How/where did Vex and S_S distance from you and T-bone? If anything Vex trying to pocket me is a non-partner tell whereas Vex playing around T-bone and yourself and suddenly a gentle clash happening when T-bone scumreads Vex implies that I am not the partner, T-bone and you are. The only thing we agree on with Vex is that I doubt they were bussing Bingle and Kerset, that friction seemed/seems genuine except that it magically stopped afterwards.

Why can Vex not do this from their own play?
There was no suggestion of this what so ever.

I also never said they distanced from me or T-Bone. Quite the opposit, and put us on the back burner. I would normally suggest a re read, but I feel you are proving your point of making stuff up right now and clearly scum.

[VFP]

Every single post you made implied it, so much so you even knew how to organise your townread-to-scumread list in a way that made clear someone many scumread was top of your townreads so as to make clear if you died the next nightphase nobody was confused what alignment Ivy was (putting the other strong townread, Rathe, at the bottom of your townreads helped make it even more clear).

The day before, the way you replaced in and quickly had many townreads, scumreads and even meta-reads on Andante means you have a lot of attention and observation as Town.

Reveal who your main is and I can either realise I am wrong about your meta or prove it more correct. You keeping it secret is your issue, not mine. I have your past to go on and the game we played together implied you do not make mistakes at all as Town and pay huge attention to detail.

It was a poorly done way to show scum I was a tracker. That's not up for debate, it was obvious.
But again, why do I not have this observation as scum? If Andante does X, why as scum I suddenly forget this?
It's the same argument here. I know what I know, I do what I do. Why does town me seem to be smarter than scum me, when scum me has more to lose with fucking up?

[VFP]

I can't talk about your ongoing game(s) so which are you referring to? Which is your main account?

I have about 10 completed games on this account.
You said that you had checked my games and with the word "most" when talknig about on going games, means you read games of mine that had finished.
Which games did you read which were finished?

[VFP]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=85856

This game has no special rules, how can I prove you read special rules from it? You are consistently observant as Town in any game though:

viewtopic.php?p=12664967&user_select%5B ... #p12664967

in that game from your first post you show you read the entire game.

I high lighted the bold. In this game I forgot who I targeted as my night action and it confused everyone for the rest of the game.
So this proves you did not read the game, or my ISO at the very least. And it proves you did not read this game as I already said about the above game.

This game I also had knowledge of different rules in the mod PM when joining in. I was aware that roles were picked and changed every night.
Here, the win con is basic, and I would assume that the scum win con has aditional information in.

So this is where I have you dead to rights.
You are saying that as scum I do not understand the rules, but as town I would.
Not, that I'm pretending to not know the rules to look town, which I wanted to give you enough chance to push as. If you pushed this I may have doubted myself.

Wincons will always say how to win.
What do wincons not normally say? The lose conditions.

You win when all Mafia members are eliminated.

Town lovers wincon

You win when mafia outnumber, reach parity with town, or when 2 VTs are eliminated.

Scum lovers win con

Either I'm just a really dumb player who ddin't read my PM on replace in, regardless of my align, or I'm aiming for town credit here.
Your argument is fake.

[VFP]

I never said I have direct meta that you don't read much as Scum, I said I don't know why you missed the win-con in massive bold text since you consistently read a lot as Town in the game we played and other games I've read from you as Town.

No, you said I don't miss it as town.
You based me as scum for this reason.

[VFP]

I have no clue at all what you're saying. I never said Town you doesn't read the text. I asked you why you didn't read it, your answer would help me read you. You answer is to vote my lover.

You can clearly see that I meant that I do read as town in your opinion.

You'd read it as Town I am sure.

You wasn't asking why I didn't read it, you are saying that as town I do read it and as scum I don't read it.

[VFP]

One line away from it says what?

What?

[VFP]

Nope. I already scumread Tbone and nullread Klick, siding towards scum.

You come in and didn't read the bog bold text which would catch the eye of anybody reading the first page, especially as Town.

I asked why you did not do it and you became extremely hostile and defensive and now vote Anastasia.

So Klick is null and I am scum because town me always reads the rules, but scum me doesn't?
I have proved time and time again in this game that you are using fake meta to say that I

don't

read as scum and that I

do

read as town.

You can keep trying to cycle this round and round, but the fact is, you were caught in trying fake meta on me.

Because Town care more about what's written in big bold text about the game especially when replacing in. Scum are more intrigued in what's in their PT simple to understand. Some players aren't observant and won't read all rules in detail (I skimread, myself) but you ignored a major thing written in massive bold text.

This is not someone who is claiming to be unsure due to the reason. This is someone using this as the reason for a scum read.

[VFP]

I asked why you didn't read ot to see your response, not to accuse you of being scum purely due to that. Your reaction is terrible.

Well this is a plain lie.
Look at the below discussion

before

you asked why I didn't read.

VFP is an observant player based on what I think of them in a previous game. There is no way Scum VFP didn't read Tbone and Klick describing the Lover PT already, false or not.

Tbone and VFP are scum pair I am quite sure now.

Simply put until now, I had zero read on Klick overall. Now I am getting a scumread on VFP.

I wasn't ignorant of Scum having daytalk. I never said I didn't know or think that. However, the reply VFP gave was attainable with just reading what Klick and Tbone wrote in thus public thread and insinuating that VFP read it without knowing much about it. It doesn't require VFP to use daytalk and ask Tbone for help to know what to say because nothing about the reply implied that happened, if it had been more detailed that may imply it especially with a larger timegap. I believe VFP based the reply on what Klick and Tbone said earlier and still scumread VFP and Tbone.

Nightless actually changes things here.
A lim on the scum lovers day 1 is an automatic win.

I'm going to think on it first then see where I go.

It isn't, there is another mechanical way for scum to win (being the only vanilla left). Why didn't you read the OP fully?

You had me as scum before hand. So again, you are lying here to fit your own narrative.

[VFP]

Are you feeling confident about this VFP?

Very confident.
RM has basically fucked up by trying to scrabble counter arguments to me here.

This isn't RM town believing they are right, this is RM scum trying to justify why I'm scum to them.

[VFP]

I read the ISO's Bingle suggested. Didn't help. And the discussion that's going on right now feels quite in the weeds.

I still have nothing on either of the other VT's, but it seems like that doesn't matter because I'm the consensus scummiest in them? Is that perception accurate?

It depends who's saying what.
I've already posted the 3 scum teams and I'm sure that even the other 3 lovers not paired with you aren't just calling you scum here?

[VFP]

I think that Bambi is the scummiest and should be todays elimination.

Again, there's no benefit to voting up the Goon over the scum lovers.

[VFP]

Remember I know you're town and vise versa so we can talk. Can you actually go back to the original post I quoted from you when you voted Ana? I was interested in that train of thought, specifically where you had grouped three different solves. Now obviously there isn't any solve that involves us. So why Ana/RM/SS, and why Kerset/Bingle/Llama? (if I'm remembering that correctly)

I'm curious about two things. Why Ana/RM over Kerset/Bingle, and then why did you place the VTs where you placed them.

You've got my vote no matter what, I'm just looking to get on the same page as you to make sure we're limming the right pair today.

So the reason I paired Llama with Bingle and Kerset is because if they are the scum team, Llama will want to push the option that has less focus at the time (RM/Ana), to leave a back and fourth for the next day within Me/you and Bingle/Kerset. As it stands, than lim removes the RM vote on us, and the Ana vote on Bingle/Kerset, so it basically goes back to how it is today (or at least before Llama wanting RM/Ana) and puts us back into a 1v1. Vex/SS votes us, Bambi votes Bingle/Kerset and Llama is the decided.
It's a good play as scum. However, Llama is playing more or less the same as last time I met them in game. Trying to slip ups, thinking outside of the box and although not as much questioning, enough to keep pushing things forward. Obviously I don't know what scum Llama is like though.
And if we were the lim (which Llama could still join in on when needed) Llama can push for the town credit and the "follow me" argument. The risk here is just a case of Bingle and Kerset then get eliminated and Llama has to convince everyone why Bambi is scum.
There's some minor back and fourth with Kerset and Llama that makes me just think they will be town here, but not to a level where by any means it debunks my pairings.
I also just town read Llama.

The reason for Vex/SS, RM and Ana as scum I've already gone over but to clarify.
Vex has Bingle/Kerset as scum, has us as basically a back up on Bingle/Kerset town, and RM/Ana as town.
Ana is fixed on getting rid of Llama due to not being able to read, and that Bambi is a read they can do the next day... Which should always suggest scum regardless. This is a common trait of what scum are doing, and that is preparing the next mis lim by being able to read that player. Vex did the same with Klick. What argument do you counter to "I now have a read on this player as scum because <insert weak, commonly used meta>"?
RM is just oozing out scum all over my new carpet, and pushing something that just isn't real. Proven to not be reading this game, while giving the appearence of doing so. Since I have come in, there really hasn't been anything from this slot of trying to sort anyone, and I'm guessing the push towards me was more when I said Vex/SS was scum but I'll have to double check that before stating it as fact.

The solve on us is argument of game play. If we were scum (which obvious we know we're not) we can only be paired with Bambi here. So basically, this should clear bambi as town if we were the lim.
I'm not trying to game throw by implying we are scum here, encase that's what you were thinking.

But to confirm, Vex/RM/Ana over Bingle/Kerset/Llama is because of how each of the 3 add up as scum together. As a whole, I think the following in singular appear as scummy.

RM
Vex
Kerset
Ana
Bingle
Llama

[VFP]

V/LA - feeling rough from covod jab.

[VFP]

VOTE: Something Smart

I havent caught up to why we are voting VTs now, but I'm about to go to work now and deadline is shortly.
I'll do a catch up tonight though.

[VFP]

I feel like this diverted because I was right in the lovers, but for the wrong reasons.

If Bambi is scum there's bussing.
On the spot choice in lovers would be RM/Ana but I feel that liming VT there only favours scum as a whole.

@T-Bone

how much do you favour Bambi town over Llama here? Is Bambi just set town in your eyes?
I will go over some things on both after work for reasons either are scum but I'll follow.

The only way I see Bingle as scum here is if we were a threat to not be the lim on an RM/Ana town flip. I think in that situation it favours me and you as a lim over Bingle and Kerset so it doesn't add up.

[VFP]

so do we want to risk with another vt, which may lead to instant lose or do we go lovers now for more data?

Wrong lovers means we lose anyway.
We have 50% chance in VT and 33% in lovers.

I already went through this and why lovers were the better option.
So we stay in the VTs today.

[VFP]

I just feel like Llama isn't scum here.
No more votes yet, other than Llama on Bambi.

[VFP]

I'm shocked you are hard defending Llama

I couldn't have seen that happening at all

I'm just trying to figure out if you're going for the win with fake AtE or if I'm getting baited hard to defend your buddy here.

[VFP]

Okay, let's talk as if we are are both confirmed town just for a moment.
Why does Bingle take the lim from your pair to VT? Considering a town flip makes me and T Bone the favored lim.

I could be right with my statement still of course, but this just makes no sense right now.

[VFP]

Is that in response to me?

[VFP]

I can't figure out what was even the counterwagon here. Bambi got votes after SS did, so scum didn't push SS to save her. Earlier Ana was pushed by emotional trio (bone, vfp, bambi) but they also ended up on SS.

I really don't understand the swap over either.
I don't understand the emotional Trio comment on a side note?

[VFP]

Ana doesn't care about RM reads
Bingle doesn't care about my reads
RM doesn't care about Ana reads
I don't care about Bingle reads
SS didn't care about making any reads
Llama thinks independently

and then there is your trio, which follows each other bc friendship is magic

It's cute that you don't understand what the word emotional means.

[VFP]

VFP how familiar are you with llama?

I have no experience with Llama scum.
I pointed this out already.

[VFP]

Also I was wrong on SS, I'm not so arrogant that I wouldn't reconsider my read on the two players in question entirely. It's something we'll have to work through over these next few days, VFP.

In fairness I was wrong there too.
My main reasons to Swapping were because of your vote, SS most likely being scum, and I wasn't sure if I'd be on at all in the six hours.

So with your Bambi read, I'm happy with it. There was something Kersel said that I was thinking over but I'll find and post it once I'm free.
The thing with Llama was the vote onto Ana when no votes were there.
Once I changed my view and voted Llama unvotes (may have been after your vote too, I need to read and clarify).
Then next thing I know, Llama is joining into the VTs (well, SS)

I really need to go through exactly what happened and why but what's your view on all of that?
You can wait until tonight for me to go through it properly if easier though.

[VFP]

but do you respect him as a player like ana?

I respect all players.
If you mean skill wise, yes. Llama I treat the same as I treat Pooky.
I don't know why, but I just know to be cautious around their actions.

[VFP]

Well it's a continuation of the question I posed yesterday. Why couldn't we eliminate one of the lover pairs, but we could eliminate S_S?

Well we were obviously wrong on one of the 2 pairs during the timing of voting.
So it's depending who was voting where, and who had already built an argument to not change the vote to either the 1st or 2nd pair we were on.

If I'm over thinking this and getting tunneled then tell me but this goes back to Ana and RM. They couldn't change their vote from us when we changed ours to them or it just looks like survival.
Bingle Kerset could have bitten and let us lead it.

The other option is if it is Llama Bingle and Kerset, then we are most likely in a 3 v 4 in votes with both lovers pushing us. This then leaves a 50/50 on confirmed Bambi.
Bambi has been getting pushed as just blind town just as much as scum with us. This is possibly to go with this and use it as reason to discredit Bambi's reads if confirmed as town.
I forget who exactly has been saying this but I feel like it was Kerset. (Correct as needed)

[VFP]

Sorry had bad Internet due to weather.

[VFP]

So where is everyone currently at with Bambi / Llama?

[VFP]

Cant see how this matters today.

It helps to see the mindset you're in.
I'm interested to know, and no if you say me and T-Bone that won't influence where I vote.

[VFP]

TBone/VFP, apologies if I missed it but do you agree that Ana/LF probably isn't S/S?

I wouldn't write it off.
My concern here is just the attempt to get people to defend Llama over Ana and hope for Bambi counter votes for RM and Ana to hammer.

Is not a high % chance, but its enough for me not to ignore it.
It also holds merit after I'm pushing that scum want to not bus at all, scum decide to go this route.

Losing scum Llama is something RM and Ana can continue, but I believe RM is in favour of Bambi? Maybe conflict of scum, or maybe scum trying to disagree to look towny.

Then again it could just be you, Kerset, and Llama like I originally said.

If I had to vote right now I'd choose Llama.
And probably still RM / Ana... on the spot, of course.

All I know is either you and Kersel, or RM and Ana want me and T-Bone to argue with the other pair to the death.

[VFP]

Game is solved since Ration and Ana voted first. Those 2 voting me together will prove the results.

If me Tbone and VFP vote Llama they can't hammer without killing their teammate and being suspicious. Llama already is voting me so their 3 scum votes can't kill me.

Bingle and Kerset already agree I can only be scum with Tbone and VFP, so even if Ana decides to not unvote Llama here and team Tbone votes him to 4 votes neither Bingle or Kerset will hammer, and Ration won't kill his partner.

I'm not in danger of dying since if Ana switches we got all 3 baddies voting me and they won't hammer Llama. So we win when we prove the scumteam can only be Tbone/VFP/Bambi or Ration/Ana/Llama. With Kerset and Bingle as confirmed town to decide it town wins.

Edit: Mod you missed Ration voting me last page.

Fixed, just for you. -Y

Unless it's just you, Bingle, and Kerset...
I don’t understand what benefit this would have other than risk a 33% chance loss.

[VFP]

I don’t understand what benefit this would have other than risk a 33% chance loss.

I’d be interested in hearing how you arrived at 33% loss after Bambi explains herself. I also don’t think you’ve shared your analysis of potential partner groups yet.

And I pribably won't be doing so more so than what I have done.
Mainly because u don't understand where you want me to go with it?

[VFP]

I don’t understand what benefit this would have other than risk a 33% chance loss.

I’d be interested in hearing how you arrived at 33% loss after Bambi explains herself. I also don’t think you’ve shared your analysis of potential partner groups yet.

Well it would be 33% from Bambi's PoV.
From 1 pair being, you know... scum.

[VFP]

The plan from Bambi is so scum sided, I think I favour Bambi over Llama for it.
T-Bone, think I'm just being Paranoid here or is this reasonable?

[VFP]

The plan from Bambi is so scum sided, I think I favour Bambi over Llama for it.
T-Bone, think I'm just being Paranoid here or is this reasonable?

Why does scum Bambi suggest it?

To win?

[VFP]

Well it would be 33% from Bambi's PoV.
From 1 pair being, you know... scum.

Not really. It's actually substantially more than that or substantially less than that from TownBambi's PoV. If you're talking from a position where she has already lost any game with RM/Ana scum it's a safe move for specifically her. If you're talking from a PoV of uninformed VT it's the case where either you or us are scum with Llama, which would be 66% of the time.

Kerset's suggestion would indeed conftown us with no risk of anyone else being able to hammer, but I don't know why anyone would actually agree to that since if you're townreading us to the extent of being willing to go through with that plan then you've functionally conftowned us anyways and it's just a useless gesture.

No, if RM and Ana are scum with Bambi then me and T-Bone voting Llama with Bambi means RM and Ana do too.
And since we're not confirmed to Bambi, same if me and T-Bone are scum with Llama.

And I get that scum Bambi doesn't directly come into the % here so I guess I was wrong on Bambi's PoV, but rather my PoV of Bambi's PoV is 33% chance of scum hammering.
And from my PoV Llama town puts it to 50% scum hammer, with a realistic 100% loss.

You're all making it sound like the only risk is if you and Kerset are scum?

[VFP]

Did you ignore the point where you specifically stated you were considering Town Bambi's PoV and I responded in kind? Cause it seems like you did.

Kerset's suggestion would only have a drawback if we were scum, yes. That is factually true. It's also a moot point because in a situation where it's viable we're already locktown and nothing is really gained.

I didn't say town Bambi though?
Did you read what you wanted to read? Cause it seems like you did.

[VFP]

its functionally worse to conftown someone by risking instant loss since you are skipping over the steps where you can win the game by eliminating the bad guys.

Yeah I agree with this.
Plus we either lose anyway or get a confirmed town to everyone.

[VFP]

I already explained the llama read.

you didnt listen to me yesterday and you're still not listening to me today despite you knowing for sure its llama

I am done talking to you

Is this just extended scum theatre since the RM / Ana scum theatre went stale?

If T-Bone thinks I'm being an idiot with my doubt here I'll reconsider. But it just feels desperate right now.

[VFP]

I didn't say town Bambi though?

Bringing percentages in at all implies that the perspective you're examining is town. If Bambi is scum she has perfect information and knows that we're town.

Like, I'm trying to work out what your thought process here is.

How is scumBambi going to win because of this suggestion? This isn't a trick question. I want to see a thought process, not surface level "That's scummy".

But thays why I corrected and said its my PoV of Bambi's PoV meaning that scum minded play can be happening and goes into the %.

I also just said how scum Bambi wins though.
If Bambi is scum, then I don't think the position to confirm you ever happens as scum you, neither am I really concered here that you hammer.

So me, Bambi, and T-Bone vote Llama, then Bambi's scum buddies RM and Ana quick vote Llama and win.
This is how scum Bambi wins.

Secondly is again scum with RM and Ana. Gains town credit for revealing you 2 as town and Town Llama is voted off regardless of knowing 2 town.

3rd option that is possible although.im not convinced, scum Bambi with scum you and Kersel just wins because, well you understand I'm sure.

The only scum party that does not gain from this is if me and T-Bone are scum with Bambi.

[VFP]

Kerset and Bingle: do you think Tbone and VFP are a team with Llama?
Tbone and VFP: same question but with Kerset and Bingle instead.

Llama scum has me at 70% RM/Ana and 30% Bingle / Kerset. So yes, it's still pretty plausible.
If you're scum, I think its just RM/Ana more about 90% and 10% Bingle / Kerset.

That's where I'm at.

[VFP]

Again please explain my D1 actions if its RM/Ana with me. Do I really in a scenario where the top two wagons are town try and get the day to drag on, push a quick wagon on buddies, and when that actually materialized abandon it for SS instead of trying to claim the town credit? Do you really think that if RM/Ana scum died D1 with me as the goon that the game would even be going on right now? Im pretty sure best case for town in that scenario is im trying to convince maybe one more vote onto Bambi who is just a little bit paranoid that I bussed.

Well the RM/Ana wagon gained traction. You couldn't swap to another pair because that would look scummy. So you have to go VTs.
Going on SS and flipping town means I was wrong. Scum you knows this and can use this to either swap my opinion away from RM/Ana or to even use against me if I keep pushing.
Scum you will know first hand that me being wrong on my pairing means I go over it again and doubt my reads.

The fact you voted RM / Ana and then unvoted when I voted with you, just makes me feel it was for show.

But you just said it yourself. A lim on RMA / Ana scum means scum you will most likely be the second VT lim.
This is why you had.to get out of that and onto the VTs.
But we're just talking possibilities, right?

I'm off out for the night though. So have a good night all

[VFP]

Well I'm here, but it doesn't say much unless T-Bone posts.

[VFP]

You should be in full support for this, Llama.

[VFP]

Well actually, Bambi town with your lim just means RM and Ana have to be scum.
So it does tell something if town and if you're the lim.

In fact, town Bambi only has to get 1 confirmed town out of Kersel / Bingle and me / T-Bone to 100% win the game if you are the lim today.

[VFP]

You're argument was Bambi town there is nothing told.
Not that this doesn't tell you anything.

But yes, it means you scum is with Ana/RM and Bambi scum is within anyone.
There's a lot to be told. You seem more worried about getting clears here though and town you should favour us getting any additional information here.

[VFP]

That was a mistake. That was a serious mistake.

If this sticks around from an impartial perspective the team can only me

Me+Ana/Rm
Bambi+Ana/RM
Bambi+Kerset/Bingle
Bambi+VFP/TBone

There is zero chance that town-Bambi decides to dance around who to go after between two lover pairs, only to sheep someone D1 who tries to snap wagon the third pair at the last minute, and then listen to that same person when they want to move it onto a VT claim, while at the same time half blaming another lover pair for not moving the wagon back to RM/Ana.

This is scum who just tried to get cute. In what spot does town actually get desperate enough to pull this move off? If anything this is what scum does when they think they are dead and need to make something happen.

Maybe. Just be glad town are getting some sort of information I guess.

[VFP]

If anything Llama, this should benefit you.
You basically have a 25% chance as scum after this.

[VFP]

We lost the chance to lim a pair when we swapped to VTs day 1.
I said this enough.

[VFP]

Inbefore Kerstel and Bingle hammering!

[VFP]

Llama is reacting badly here for someone who 'knows' Bambi is scum.

[VFP]

Everyone posting is even more obvious that I am town unless with RM/Ana now too. What world is scum talking in the main topic? Scum is going to the PT saying "I will be around X time, what about you?"

Creative attempt, bad result. If you actually clammed up I think scum could have won here.

Yeah I think T-Bone forgot to set him alarm, we planned on hammering 14mins ago.

[VFP]

Please from your standpoint... explain how I am scum with anyone but Ana/RM unless your argument is going to be "Kerset/Bingle just havent been able to coordinate"... Both have been around in the last few hours.

I'm not arguing it?
But Kersel and Bingle haven't posted together yet.

I even said that this only makes you 25% chance as scum to Bambi's 75%.
Since you have 1 scum option and Bambi has 3.

[VFP]

The only people to be worried about this so far are Llama and RM.
I don't understand why, if Bambi is just scum here?

[VFP]

Let me clarify, the self vote to test doesn't change my opinion on either Llama or Bambi at all.
The reactions from others do though.

[VFP]

@Bambi - If there is a 0% chance I am scum without RM/Ana... why not vote them instead?

I know this answer but Bambi should clarify first before I say.

[VFP]

I mean... I've been on site most of the day. If I were scum looking to qh I would have paid attention here.

I don't actually doubt this.

[VFP]

If I am scum it suddenly is 100% Ana/RM.

I still don't understand your point here.
Should my pair or Bingles pair only consider Ana/RM as scum here?

I don't see anyone directly arguing you as scum with the other pairs, but the argument that they can be scum. This is 100% correct from either side PoV.
But yes, with what is done, and once T-Bone posts we can safely say that scum you is only scum with RM / Ana.

[VFP]

Right, once I say Tacos in the main thread we hammer, got it scum buddy?

[VFP]

Let me clarify, the self vote to test doesn't change my opinion on either Llama or Bambi at all.
The reactions from others do though.

Tell me what you think.

Personally I think Llama is in panic mode here and trying to de rail any clearings from Bambi.
If we lim scum Llama we just win now. I don't see why Llama worries so much when scum Bambi self voting doesn't lose.us the game.
RM too 9n a small way but not so much.

Also, I had Tacos for dinner!

[VFP]

I don't think Bingle scum worries about Bambi self voting there as it favours them, so asking for the unvote is town credit.

[VFP]

As there is no hammer there are four pairs

Me + Ana/RM
Bambi + Ana/RM
Bambi + Bingle/Kerset
Bambi + VFP/TBone

The point is as there is no hammer there is a 0% chance that I am scum outside of Ana/RM first being scum. Voting for me is somewhere between a game throw and scum claim.

It doesnt matter who is scum with Bambi, but they have proven that if Ana/RM is not scum I am confirmed town.

Okay. So how do we prove RM/Ana are town without losing the game?
This just means RM and Ana have to both vote Bambi and this all favours you.

[VFP]

I don't think Bingle scum worries about Bambi self voting there as it favours them, so asking for the unvote is town credit.

All I care about right now is that it proves I am town, and my mind is now stuck on if Bambi actually ran this past their partners.

But it doesn't prove you as town.

[VFP]

Nope. This just proves that the vote is RM/Ana (if you think I am scum - leaves Bambi/Me) or Bambi is scum (If you think I am town - Leaves all of lover pairs).

Okay?
But what is the aim here?

I have already said a number of times I agree here.
What is it that I should be doing with the information I just received from Bambi's self vote?

If I think you are scum, why would I vote RM/Ana here?

[VFP]

Actually I see what you're saying.

[VFP]

So we lim in your and Bambi it's a 50/50
And in that 50/50, voting RM / Ana is then a 100 by 50/50 meaning that if we are wrong on you, we still go the same route but the chances of getting scum is actually increased.
But that's more only if we decide to lim you.

My apologies I didn't see what you were saying at first.

[VFP]

So you wouldnt vote RM/Ana in a scenario where under the assumption that there is a 100% scenario to you that they are scum... while if I am town its infinitely less because... ????

I already saw my mistake and I agree with this.
It means lim you is 50% right
Lim RM / Ana is 75% right

Or something along those lines.

[VFP]

Thought on this T-Bone?

And yes, town Bambi should always want RM / Ana as the lim here.

[VFP]

*Cant be town with.

Same process. If Bambi was town Bambi would be dead already unless its RM/Ana... so I turn into the confirmed town. Which I absolutely hate... but why not have a setup I didnt like just spite me because spite.

You nearly frazzled my tiny brain trying to think that.

[VFP]

It's 100% from my perspective but not theirs bro. For Bingle I could be with Tbone or vice Versa.

You as town Llama should still not think RM/Ana is 100 tho. Sure as scum this saves you and you can 1v1 me another day, but town you shouldn't be 100 certain I'm not scum with the other lovers. Why would town you be so certain on them?

Again this is right, but I understand what Llama is saying now.
If we vote Llama, we should instead vote RM/Ana.
You should want this too because it is the best way for town to progress. In you're view, it's still right.
If we want to lim you though, it's probably not the best idea.

If Llama is scum, we just vote up their only buddy.
If Llama is town, this view is just town minded and benefits town every time.

[VFP]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

[VFP]

I think I favour Llama over Bambi as town here.
But I'll wait until my T-Bone gives input. He's the brains.

So why is it me or Bambi for you? Isnt it actually Bambi v RM/Ana?

I'm saying you in the sense of who I'm reading from this whole thing.
Voting would obviously be RM/Ana or Bambi.

I'm also under the thought of either below scum team.
You, RM, Ana
Bambi, Bingle, Kersel

Although the 3rd option is there, I think the chances are low.
So you can just consider you and Bambi as the mascots to the teams I think town or scum.

[VFP]

Honeymoon period over?

[VFP]

I think I just favour Bingle / Kersel / Bambi.

[VFP]

I can see Bingle / Kersel split on the views just because your lim doesn't give anyone town credit to not be the lim.
So it's still a huge fight to win, and just both pushing would look suspicious. Same for our pair as well.

[VFP]

I dont re call seeing Llama saying that RM / Ana are scum though.
Only that it benefits town to lim them over Llama. Which it does.

I think either what Llama is saying is still being mis understood, or just manipulated into looking like something else.
Do you not agree that from a town side, the lim should be in Ana / RM over Llama?
This is not from what you know, but from what the pairs know. We know that Llama is only scum with Ana / RM.
From towns View in the lovers there's a 50% chance that scum you is paired with RM / Ana.

If I thought it was Llama, RM, and Ana but its actually you RM, and Ana then a lim on Llama is a loss while a lim on RM / Ana is still potential to win.
Even if it is just Llama, RM, and Ana then it takes 2 days to lim regardless of the order.

There's no benefit to vote Llama today, and even if I think scum I won't be doing so.

[VFP]

T-Bone, Llama hasn't lied.
The whole confirming Bingle / Kerstel was preemptive at best. If anything it shows town mind set know that they can't be scum there. I was carefully considering the point of marking the Bingle / Kerstel / Llama off and this happened during the Bambi self voting stage.

And neither is Llama saying that RM / Ana is 100% scum to him.
This is why Llama isn't voting RM / Ana. To Llama only Bambi is 100% scum.

To me and you, Llama has less of a chance to flip scum than RM / Ana. That is fact.

VOTE: Bambi

If I'm wrong I'm sorry but Llama really hasn't lied or back peddled from anything said.
Bambi is just clearly trying to keep the situation confused here.

Also I'm confirmed to Llama now if town, so a Bambi scum flip is a town win.

[VFP]

UNVOTE: Bambi

[VFP]

In fact we are just confirmed as town now, right?
So I want to spend the day left talking to T-Bone.

[VFP]

Just to clarify, we posted at the same time Bambi being on E2
And Llama is E1.

T-Bone regardless of what happens just unvote please.

[VFP]

I'm sorry!

[VFP]

Like, Kerset/Bingle's actions do not clear Llama in any way. Even if you want to buy them as 'not scum with Llama' that's one thing.

But Llama has tried to twist those events to confirm himself as town. Even going so far as to quote two posts from Kerse/Bingle when Bambi was NOT in elimination range to "prove" that they aren't scum together. That is a blatant obscuring of the facts, and why I keep using the word lie, VFP.

I agree that Llama isn't clear here. Llama can be scum, and I don't see Llama as arguing against this being a possibility.
Maybe I'm just being stupid here but where is Llama playing off as confirmed town or should be considered as town outside of RM / Ana?

I think I still see it as preemptive mindset rather than a lie, but I can see the path you're going with that.

Right now there are only 3 possibilities
Bambi / Bingle / Kerset
Bamni / RM / Ana
Llama / RM / Ana

It must be agreed that at the very least we lim RM / Ana over Llama?

From each group as well. Scum can only be
RM/Ana - Bambi /Kerset /Bingle
Bingle/Kerset - Llama / RM / Ana or Bambi / RM / Ana
Llama - Bambi / RM /Ana or Bambi / Bingle / Kerset
Bambi - Llama / RM / Ana

So from town PoV, Llama will always vote Bambi, Bambi any of the 3, but RM / Ana in towns interest.
Bingle Kerset always on RM / Ana.
RM Ana on any of the 3, most likely Bambi.

[VFP]

Give me 1.5hours and I'll be finished work, T-Bone.

[VFP]

Because he fucking wants you dead what do you think I mean.

Point to a time where you disagrees or argued with Llama at all this game.

@T-Bone - if you see what Llama is doing as lying, then so is Bambi here, right?
Bambi has been manipulating this entire argument with the only counter that just isn't true. Llama doesn't want RM / Ana dead.
Either I'm just reading entirely wrong or Bambi is doing what I expect them to be doing here and confusion the argument.

[VFP]

VFP, has Llama given any indication he's looking into the pairs at all? All he suggested is eliming those 2 instead of him. If he doesn't want them dead he sure as hell hasn't fought for anything else.

It's been pretty hard when Llama has had to keep explaining the same thing over though.
It's also down to the fact Llama has to lim you today. You have to lim in the lovers, so you need to know in the lovers.

[VFP]

Okay I'm home now.

[VFP]

Right here VFP. Bambi was not at L-2 when this occurred. This is the "proof" being fabricated.

Like, Kerset/Bingle not hammering Llama has nothing to do with Llama's alignment. Llama continues to try to claim Kerset/Bingle's actions (or lack of actions) as proof to him being town. That's dishonest.

Llama then tries to frame this vote as RM/Ana vs. Bambi because of this supposed clear. That's a dishonest argument you are falling for atm. There's nothing honest or true about that argument.

Llama then uses that position to try and tell us 'if Bambi were town she should vote for RM'. That's dishonest.

I'm gonna need something more compelling than 'Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana'. If that's true then let's solve that problem today.

Okay, so again I see where you are at with this but it still just feels Llama with the right mindset rather than trying to trick us. It's a lie / fabrication that is easily found out. Llama isn't dumb, and I don't buy that this was a scum mistake / lie as it would just be poorly actioned and lazy on his side.

But I agree with.Llama 100% that it's Bambi vs RM / Ana. I think this is a big part that isn't coming across accurately. This doesn't mean its scum in 1 of these, it means this is where the votes are at. Llama scum is irrelevant at this point and its a case of you lim Bambi or you lim RM / Ana.
It's not framing at all, and this is where Bambi has just muddied the water by claiming it is.

If Bambi is town then yes they should vote RM / Ana. This isn't for the PoV of Bambi but as PoV for town. Town Bambi knows the exact team. We know who can be scum.
For me and you, without reads its 50% chance Llama scum and 66% RM/Ana scum. The odds alone mean that town (including town Bambi) benefit from voting here. There's no mis guidance here in whats said regardless if Llama is actually scum.
The argument for Llama scum is being forced to play this argument, rather than lying on this argument. However, i feel that no one bringing this up suggests Llama as town.

What you need to consider with Bambi is the following.

Babmi blindly followed us all game and marked us as town.
Bambi wanted Bingle and Kerset to have the option to hammer.
Bambi then makes a play that to clear us and Bingle / Kerset from buddies with Llama. To me this just feels like leaving a town pair with either option to make them the optimal lim over 2 pairs who are now limited to scum groups.

If you don't trust Llama, surely you trust me in saying that what Llama has presented is correct, even if scum?
If Llama was to be the lim 100% I will veto to an RM / Ana lim to at least give us more time if right. I think we just lose on Llama though.

Bingle has voted RM / Ana because that pair has to vote there or risk being pushed as scum minded.
The only reason RM / Ana have to push Bambi over Bingle and Kerset is because of Llama not knowing the the pair is.

[VFP]

Outside of what looks to be fabrication on Llamas side, what actually makes Llama scum here?
I'm not asking as if there is anything either.

So we know Day 1 Llama wanted to vote RM / Ana, but I I joined Llama moved to SS who was my leading VT scum.
With what we know now, what level of consideration do we take that Llama was legit doubting, or Llama was distancing and had to not risk RM / Ana as scum?

Outside of that I don't recall Llama doing scummy actions of even influencing my reads in a way but there may parts I'm missing.

And that question is to everyone really.

[VFP]

Outside of what looks to be fabrication on Llamas side, what actually makes Llama scum here?
I'm not asking as if there is anything either.

Did you acknowledge that i didn't call out llama for fabrications but for perpetrator's knowledge?

I was originally aiming that all at T-Bone at first.
Go over again you're push. I'm not saying you're wrong here I want to see what I'm missing to what T-Bone isn't.
What is Llama's perpetrators knowledge?

[VFP]

Llama isn't scum here, do you want me to rehash why I originally did think Llama could be scum regarding the D1 sudden push on S_S?

In fairness there's no need for you or Ana to go through this as it's basically like asking me why T-Bone is scum at this stage.

I can talk about Bingle / Kerset or Bambi though with you 2.

Bambi I put the main scum parts in 1741 but from your view am I missing anything obvious?

[VFP]

Even Bambi can explain what RM / Ana has done as scum.
I know from you're PoV they are confirmed, but let's ignore the confirmed part for a moment.

[VFP]

I read the entire thing differently and it seems more frustration. Even I wasn't understanding it at first until I had to think it over and over.

The problem with your argument here is that Llama is still correct.
Town Llama argues that town do ot lim on him just as much as scum Llama.

The difference is scum Llama has no option but to use this argument, as town Llama thinks of this from experience alone, so it's basically down to a 50/50 with this as the argument alone for me to put Llama as scum.

Thoughts on Llama's day 1, and thoughts of how Bambi has not been concerned all game with.me and T-Bone?

[VFP]

I don't see how anyone thinks Llama is mafia here.

The only team he could be paired with is Me/RM.

If you look at the interactions between my slot and llama's slot, does it really look like scum theater to anyone?

I am town.

Llama is town.

Let's vote out Bambi and we can talk about which lover pair to eliminate tommorrow.

This is a sudden tune change. Earlier it was 'Llama is scum and no one is listening to me.'

Yeah I agree with that, it's 1 thing to see Bambi as scum because they have to but not to be in disbelieve that Llama still looks scum to players.

I feel like Ana is trying to lay low as well, or am I wrong?

[VFP]

Also VFP. If Llama can only be scum with RM/Ana, then flipping Llama as scum ends the game, yes?

Whereas if you think RM/Ana can be scum with both of them, then we're just repeating this argument of Bambi vs Llama on Day 3.

If we're right we have 4 confirmed town to discuss and an entire game day.
RM/Ana has more of a chance to flip scum than Llama. That's just how it is.

[VFP]

VFP DO NOT VOTE LLAMA, you literally carried this game by not voting Llama before just tell me the reason you think it's me, tell the full reason

I don't think it's you.
But if I have to lim you or Llama my chances of winning are increased with you.

[VFP]

VFP DO NOT VOTE LLAMA, you literally carried this game by not voting Llama before just tell me the reason you think it's me, tell the full reason

Why are you not saying 'do not vote me'? If you are town then voting you will also end the game.

Because me voting town Llama is a loss for town RM...

[VFP]

I don't think it's worth me repeating why Llama is correct here.
There is no other way to explain it.

I think I just vote Bambi today but I'm going to give T-Bone the respect to change my mind here before doing anything.

[VFP]

Let's face it, I had RM and Ana as my favoured scum.
The whole "I wouldn't do it as scum because I lose" is irrelevant. T-Bone has also been pretty set on Bambi town all game too.
I suspect scum Bingle would play to T-Bone over me expecting me to just follow T-Bone given day 1.

[VFP]

Well... I'm stumped.

[VFP]

I'm going to bed.
Someone tell me who to vote.

[VFP]

I was just about to vote you and call it a night.
But I guess I'll spend an hour looking over things again.
The last thing I want to do it just lose it for T-Bone.

[VFP]

It's possible that you posting at this exact point saves you.

Let me read more.

[VFP]

I dozed off before finishing but yeah I just find there to be more scum evidence to Bambi than Llama here. If Llama has played me it's what it is. Bingle and Kerset are just too okay with Llama being scum here when Bambi could always be the option.
VOTE: Bambi

If its just Llama / RM / Ana ill take responsibility for the loss. However, I even tried to give plenty of time for everyone else to get the 4 votes before I placed this one.
It feels like this wasn't achieved because scum don't want to make risk changes or actioning first.

RM / Ana is always the best lim over Llama, but if there's high risk of town losing from my just voting Bambi (and this looked favoured all day) then Llama would be the viable option over Bambi.
That's why I don't believe everyone believes it who claim Llama is scum (excluding T-Bone).

[VFP]

I have work in 7 hours I might flip flop when I wake up.

[VFP]

VOTE: RationalMadman

[VFP]

Yeah I feel like like it's the wrong choice but we'll see.
I think I would feel worse losing it by going against T-Bone than losing it for going with.

[VFP]

Okay so I'm happy to go Llama at this stage.
I'll just let town jump in first.

[VFP]

Poor T-Bone!

[VFP]

I can't see Bambi being the lim in any case, so is it just worth ending now or is there things to add?

[VFP]

VOTE: Llama

[VFP]

Well done scum.
If only I stuck to my guns I guess.

Sorry Llama, if it helps I had you as town but went with the probability of winning on the last vote.
I still don't understand how what Llama was saying wasn't understood but it is what it is.

Thanks for modding yessiree

[VFP]

ggs, and wp bambi. Probably wouldn’t have caught you if I stayed in
@VFP - please never say shit like “oh vex replaced out because they put scum in a poor position.” Not only is that against the rules to do so, but it’s also completely tone deaf to irl circumstances. I replaced out because I couldn’t be bothered to play. The reroll took all my motivation to actually play, so I replaced out.

Let's not stretch it here.
I said "Vex looks like a defeatist here and the replace out doesn't look good regardless if there's a genuine reason or not."