This is what happens when I put aIn post 647, Alexcellent wrote:Going to get caught up, sorry for lack of postings in last few days
Gut has been going more towards an Owen vote tbh but I'll take a look at this case on Corwin. Have been feeling like he's town though.
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quote="In post 671, Alexcellent"]In post 672, Alexcellent wrote:Like there are so many easier targets to dump a vote on if Corwin is scum. Unless he's hoping people ignore it and eliminate someone else and he can coast by without being on a miselim? Idk
Alright I'm just not feeling this. It feels like a weird team to push as scum though?? At this instant (still catching up), Corwin feels like tunnel vision town.[/quote]In post 595, Corwinoid wrote:VOTE: Vivax
I hate being confident on D1, but I'm very feeling Vivax/UNOwen/?? as a team right now.
He directly countervoted the first two people who voted him, and refuses to participate in game sorting arguments. Very very much dislike the "easier targets" line as an excuse, given his votes were specifically on people for voting him, rather than feeling like genuine attempts to solve the game.
He had never mentioned Vivax's existence once. The scum read is made up on the spot, then retroactively justified by one of the weakest reasons/votes I've seen in recent memory.
I'd only buy a tunnel vision argument if Vivax didn't come as a direct response to a vote. If the Jester comment was really that bad, we'd have heard about it sooner. The timing reeks of Corwin pausing to look back and trying to figure out something, anything to use to claim Vivax was scum. It's inorganic. I don't see any natural town thought process in the entire progression from 480 to 613. Posts 594 and 595 are horrifyingly contradictory on their own.
And what's the only thing he does now? A one post now calling me scum for calling him scum. He had plenty of chances to react to my growing concerns he was scum last night. Apparently, the entire scumteam all decided to vote Corwin together for shits and giggles 'This is now the narrative he's pushing. What he's not doing is any legitimate scumhunting. He has yet to do this all game. He refuses to even answer basic questions like when asked to him in 510.
Also his response to Elsa suggests Elsa is town. Do not believe I brought this up last night.-
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He acknowledges his reason may be faulty in 594, because Vivax may be less experienced than he thought, one post before he votes him anyway.In post 678, Eiralox wrote:
Ok Corwin's first line is logical here and wholly adresses Crescent's point.In post 590, Corwinoid wrote:
The point is that Mafia wouldn't care which roles they're hunting because they're informed. Not knowing Jester isn't a prohibited role in Normal games from an experienced player comes off as very much not caring about needing to solve.In post 586, Crescent wrote:How would mafia know whether or not a Jester exists?
How would they even know a third party exists, barring simply having too few numbers for the game?
Like, my last scumgame we we 3/14. We knew for dead certain there was a third party because 4 in 14 is standard where I come from.
The second sentence..... sure, Vivax said they've played since 2008. So check for experience. But Corwin, as this is Vivax's first game on this particular platform, don't you think a modicum of ignorance is warranted from their side?
That vote is probably what I most can't let go.-
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It is based on post #611 specifically. It reeks of scum knowing their vote is bad and latching onto town to potentially sheep. It's another display that he's not attempting to solve, and it is when I voted him.In post 611, Corwinoid wrote:
Because I don't understand what you and Eira were playing at earlier. I'll go for either one if you want to make a case for which one you think is better for me when I get back.In post 604, Elsa Jay wrote:
And you choose the one without a wagon and not targeting you all game? Why get off of Owen?In post 595, Corwinoid wrote:VOTE: Vivax
I hate being confident on D1, but I'm very feeling Vivax/UNOwen/?? as a team right now.
I actually could see 613 being S/S In a "cut it out already idiot" sense, but the raw pandering to Elsa and completely undermining his own vote in #611 in the process just doesn't vibe that way. It's hard to imagine scum positing this response to another scum in this situation.-
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quote="In post 684, Eiralox"]In post 684, Eiralox wrote:
well gibus and goldfish and owen were also kinda mute these past days, as Geraintm did mention it's weekend so some folk do stuff. My shtick with George is way more the... non-contributive, under-the-radar thing along with behavior I've detailed in earlier posts.In post 682, Crescent wrote:George doing nothing for an entire new day does not give me any good feelings about George.
I've just yet to see anything remotely resembling a convincing argument about Corwin being a bad vote.
Goldfish also under the radar atm, haven't given them much attention but from feels alone so far no alarm bells have rung.
well gibus and goldfish and owen were also kinda mute these past days, as Geraintm did mention it's weekend so some folk do stuff. My shtick with George is way more the... non-contributive, under-the-radar thing along with behavior I've detailed in earlier posts.In post 682, Crescent wrote:George doing nothing for an entire new day does not give me any good feelings about George.
I've just yet to see anything remotely resembling a convincing argument about Corwin being a bad vote.
Goldfish also under the radar atm, haven't given them much attention but from feels alone so far no alarm bells have rung.[/quote]
I mentioned this last night, but Goldfish has been so obvious in doing nothing that it gives me pause on whether or not scum would be so obvious in doing nothing.
I feel like scum in her position would've felt compelled to do *something* by now.
Will say doing nothing last night but hedging on the Corwin argument, then never coming up with a dedicated response to it like Alex did, does not feel great at all.-
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Clidd and Elsa both voting Owen, then immediately trying to coax me onto it weirded me the hell out. I'm not sure I can quite put into words how awkward this all felt. It does further my belief that Elsa is probably as ADHD as I am, at least.In post 685, Alexcellent wrote:Tbh, between Corwin and Uno, I'd probably vote Corwin due to the info his flip gives. But also I'm uncomfortable with the Uno wagon now. Elsa/Clidd makes me uncomfortable. Skimming their ISOs, neither have really directly interacted with each other. Elsa sheeped Clidd's Owen vote like a minute after. Clidd came in with this wishwashy non-committal agreement to Elsa's policy elimination stuff a few minutes after she posted it. Elsa listed Clidd as a town read, Clidd lists Elsa as a null. Idk, uncomfortable with the whole thing there.
P-Edit: actually yeah, tunnel vision is the wrong phrasing there
But this is another problem with Corwin: He was on Owen with these people. He never even acknowledges Owen now has a train in his entire "progression" to voting Vivax. He never acknowledges any of the reasons these people voted him, or my response to it. It's only when Elsa specifically points it out after he changes votes that he makes that pandering post to her.
He directly mentions Owen exactly twice: In 477 when he originally shades Vivax, and in 510 when he flat out refuses to answer Vivax's question. He has zero response, ever, to two people voting a guy he's already on.-
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The timing is very interesting, actually.In post 690, Elsa Jay wrote:We (me and Clidd) did interact earlier on the policy thing. And adding a vote to Owen seemed right since (again) we're in the final day so I was getting a wagon on my scumread.
I was NOT expecting whatever Corwin did. So uh. Guess I may vote there. Still don't know why they didn't just stay on Owen. Isn't it more of a scum benefit to just not do anything there instead of make a stupid argument? Or am I just giving scum Corwin to much credit?
Corwin's return to attack Vivax over the Jester post is at #542. This is when he really committed to going after Vivax.
The votes on Owen come at #544 and #545. Vivax is not here at this time.
Corwin does not post again until after Vivax returns to respond to the Jester post, but makes no mention of Owen again until the very post he votes Vivax. If he were genuinely solving the game, how does he have no reaction to two Owen votes that drop right in his face as he's waiting for Vivax to respond?-
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Why does town have no reaction whatsoever to two people voting for the same person they're voting for?In post 694, Alexcellent wrote:
Do agree with this. Which is what I mean. Don't see why scum!Corwin votes town!Vivax there when scum can do literally anything else. Could have kept his vote on NM or on Unowen with no probs. Feels more likely town with bad argument than scum pushing something.In post 690, Elsa Jay wrote:We (me and Clidd) did interact earlier on the policy thing. And adding a vote to Owen seemed right since (again) we're in the final day so I was getting a wagon on my scumread.
I was NOT expecting whatever Corwin did. So uh. Guess I may vote there. Still don't know why they didn't just stay on Owen. Isn't it more of a scum benefit to just not do anything there instead of make a stupid argument? Or am I just giving scum Corwin to much credit?-
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Oh and don't get me wrong. It's not all about that progression. It's been a sweeping problem all game.In post 525, Crescent wrote:
And this is the biggest issue I have from him. Right there.In post 519, Vivax wrote:
Because you still didn't post a read on GeorgeBayley.In post 514, Corwinoid wrote:How in the hell do you go from me asking someone to make a plain point so we're on the same page and now things, to me suggest we "keep knowing nothing"?Your main goal seems to dismiss arguments, not build them.
If you are town and the wagon next to you is GeorgeBayley, and you don't know the alignment of GeorgeBayley, you can save yourself by getting him voted, which is the correct play 100% of the time.
This is ultimately where my scum vibes from Corwin were originally coming from, and nothing has changed. Yet again his only response was weak shade on someone who called him scum. I mentioned a while before this that Corwin had some scum equity. I've waited for a single genuine attempt at game solving, and it just never happened. All we got instead was countershade.-
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Corwin has some scum motive to bail off of town Owen, too, if he notices those votes, though it would require a bit of forethought in the moment.
A. Those votes were arguably bad, and would reflect poorly on them later, meanwhile his unvote could be taken as disagreeing with the turn the train made, thus looking better. Corwin only had 2 votes himself at this time.
B. Newbie scum is often shy about leading actual train on town rather than just a "vote".
C. Newbie scum is often nervous about being on an early town voteoff because they are afraid it will blow back on them.
I have seen end of day vote spreads a few times where two town were tied, and a newbie scum was hiding as a splinter vote because they were afraid to be on either one and get caught in a green flip.-
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Elsa is fascinating to me right now. I can see the arguments and I can see her seeming to avoid half of them. The attempts to get me to vote Owen and their reaction to the Corwin train certainly didn't town vibe me.
I can see independent reasons for both Elsa and Corwin being scum, but based on their interactions, I don't feel it's both. An exchange like 611 especially only happens if scum plans it out beforehand. At the moment, I think Vivax is town regardless.
I won't say no to killing George, though. Almost every point I've made about him in this game has ultimately stood. I was briefly distracted by his vote and that's really about it.-
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Yep. I went over this. Jester post is 542. Owen votes are 544 and 545.In post 712, Alexcellent wrote:
I mean I guess these are all possible.In post 707, Crescent wrote:Corwin has some scum motive to bail off of town Owen, too, if he notices those votes, though it would require a bit of forethought in the moment.
A. Those votes were arguably bad, and would reflect poorly on them later, meanwhile his unvote could be taken as disagreeing with the turn the train made, thus looking better. Corwin only had 2 votes himself at this time.
B. Newbie scum is often shy about leading actual train on town rather than just a "vote".
C. Newbie scum is often nervous about being on an early town voteoff because they are afraid it will blow back on them.
I have seen end of day vote spreads a few times where two town were tied, and a newbie scum was hiding as a splinter vote because they were afraid to be on either one and get caught in a green flip.
Maybe worth noting Corwin's initial post about the jester thing towards Vivax 542 does come before Elsa and Clidd jumped onto the Owen wagon (literally like 2 mins after he posted). But he doesn't actually move his vote to Vivax til a little while after.
Corwin does not respond to the Owen votes or to anything happening in the game at this time.
When Vivax returns, he quickly responds to Vivax.-
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I would sure like if Goldfish came to a conclusion onIn post 751, Alexcellent wrote:
Goldfish, have you come to a conclusion re Corwin yet??In post 652, GoldfishFromTheMoon wrote:The corwind scumcase looks good, I'll have to read over his ISO but I'm considering putting a vote there.anything.-
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It's probably just lazy scumplay. Scum has far more motive to act like he has on the last page than town does.In post 750, Alexcellent wrote:
I don't like this, I think this is bad, but I respect itIn post 748, geraintm wrote:@alex
Not planning on changing my vote. I said it was locked and I am not going to break that (I hate liars in mafia games, people who lie about roles are thr worst)
A. Find excuse to vote on someone who isn't getting voted out and do so under false pretenses.
B. Claim he'd vote an unreadable person who isn't getting voted out to effectively ignore all the leading trains, so nothing can blow back on him one way or the other.
C. Coast-
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Honestly, GB is more of an.. "acceptable compromise" to me. Too many players have scum equity for them to all be scum. He's a low-risk candidate with decently high equity.
I will say if Corwin lives the day and I don't live the night, put him on a leash tomorrow and give him a timer to produce results. He has yet to give any indication he is trying to solve the game, yet he's called everyone who's voted him scum.-
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Also Alex strikes me as someone who thinks I'm town but is going bonkers with paranoia because the way I play is borderline certifiable at times.
This I find is a thought process that typically comes from town, because it's hard to fake consistently.
Healthy paranoia towards me is a good thing, honestly.-
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669 being Owen's only post in the last 24 hours looks *bad*. He's dine virtually nothing for two days.
Elsa did touch on the one argument swimming in my head that could make Corwin town - Just how dumb that entire exchange looks.
Though his only contribution since returning being to call me scum for voting him does him no favors either.
Honestly though, the argument that Corwin isn't showing any genuine effort to solve the game can directly be applied to Owen's recent play.
Chances of scum/scum are low, but there's no reason to think either one has any real town equity at this point. I do usually like to resolve things like this sooner rather than later, but it's hard with how little we are currently getting from either player. Owen is both the train leader of Corwin and the biggest argument against killing him.-
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Uh.In post 762, Elsa Jay wrote:Corwin if your anything but a VT let us know now. We're nearly out of time.
Corwin is -4 and tied for the vote lead with GB with 20 hours left in the day. There is quite a bit of obvious resistance to voting him from some players I townread.
Why is he being singled out in this post?-
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I dislike the post for singling out one of two tied players that you seem keen on going after. The best town angle there is to ask both to claim.
But that post presupposes Corwin is town. That post reads like scum asking "Hey are you a vanilla I can try to vote off, or are you power and do I have to go elsewhere?"-
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How is only one claiming good enough if you're set on killing one or the other?In post 767, Elsa Jay wrote:We don't need multiple people claiming at once. One is good enough. If Owen claims too, fine.
How could you possibly make an informed decision this way?-
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Honestly Elsa's recent behavior definitely increases the value in a GB vote today. She does not seem to care at all who we vote off Corwin or Owen, but she's dead set against GB.In post 773, Elsa Jay wrote:People seem more likely to vote Corwin now, me and maybe Clidd included. I just picked the one I can switch my vote too.-
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UNVOTE: Corwin
VOTE: GB
I legitimately hate changing votes, but I feel like all I'm doing is putting it off otherwise. I'm suddenly feeling very much against either a Corwin or Owen claim today. "I wonder why".
Not even because he did anything to decrease his scum equity, but because someone else did something that dramatically raised the scum equity of themselves and the third player up for vote.
If you're town Corwin, shape the hell up tomorrow. We are going to need more than what you have given us. Your scum equity is still very high and your play has been nonsensical at best from a town perspective.-
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Your preference is "anyone so long as it isn't GB."In post 779, Elsa Jay wrote:I got a preference and because of that George is scum? Wut?
This is not a town mindset. You do not care who dies so long as it's one of Owen or Corwin. You vibe like you're trying to kill one today and the other tomorrow and the order doesn't matter.-
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...
Yeah, whatever. I guess I get to double vote right now.-
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Anyways, I was already alright on compromising on GB, but the information potential is now quite a bit higher than it was this morning. Low risk, good albeit not spectacular scum equity, and a trove of potential information.
The string of spew he posted while I was out did exactly nothing for me in any case.-
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I'm torn between how obvious it felt that GB was going to be voted off at day's end and the speed at which those two votes followed mine.In post 786, Elsa Jay wrote:George I'm sorry you appear to be dying for my sins. I won't vote you to honor you.
The only reason I'm not immediately unvoting to give some more breathing space is we're already in the last 18 or so hours, but I do want to hear from Vivax why he switched sooner rather than later.-
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If GB flips scum, look at that train on Owen. YikesIn post 786, Elsa Jay wrote:George I'm sorry you appear to be dying for my sins. I won't vote you to honor you.-
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Clidd probably ends up being town unless scum decided to all jump on the same guy at the same time.In post 797, Eiralox wrote:In post 794, Crescent wrote:
If GB flips scum, look at that train on Owen. YikesIn post 786, Elsa Jay wrote:George I'm sorry you appear to be dying for my sins. I won't vote you to honor you.
i theorized clidd/elsa/george way back. we'll see how it plays out.-
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And personally I'd go Gera before Clidd, especially if we get scum GB and town Corwin/Owen. It makes everything he's done on recent pages look even worse.
Keep a useless vote on me. Refuse to engage in the town/town feud of Owen and Corwin to avoid said potential blowback I mentioned earlier, with instances of GB defense sprinkled in from the start of the game.-
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I was already quite confident GB was going to end up being voted off today. I had made it personally clear I was willing to vote him.In post 801, Elsa Jay wrote:Cres your paranoia will be the death of us.
The only thing that changed recently is I now think you're scum if he flips scum.
And now you just seem like you're flailing.-
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If I'm alive in this situation, I give Corwin 4 days to convince me he's actually trying to solve the game. If he passes, I reevaluate who to vote for based on the new information of the day. If he fails, I murder him.In post 804, Elsa Jay wrote:Well I can't just claim masons with him to prove you wrong, but frankly I'm like 95 percent sure if we don't solve the Owen Corwin thing now it'll be an issue for even longer. Plus we still got NotMaf.
What will you do if/when George flips town? Just says "oops" and go back to Corwin?
I am hoping town holds him to this if I am not alive to do it myself.-
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You seem to be ignoring that I clearly said I was not opposed to a GB vote earlier today. My vote was likely always going to end up there, just maybe not as soon. I don't think Corwin or Owen would've had the momentum required to reach majority.In post 806, Elsa Jay wrote:Bro you literally just decided because I said something that bothered you and set off your radar you're gonna kill someone that isn't me for it. How elsa am I supposed to react here?-
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I don't really remember much of what Clidd has done other than seemingly contradict himself on Gera before retroactively justifying it.In post 808, Eiralox wrote:Clidd is yet to answer me on my many points(or offer any feedback on this really, chances are they're offline today)
Gera... no. Gera needs time, they stated their dislike of D1's and they've been consistent in that at least. If their D2 looks like their D1, yeah something's up, but right now I remain null. Their interaction with you I read as genuine frustration. Yes, such emotions can be faked, but overall I haven't found anything to peg Gera on. It's the whole meta regarding the attacks on gera which made me decide to vote for GB after all, as well as Not_MAfia's nudge.
I actually did those ISOs, and he did have an actual point, albeit not a game breaking one. I'm just not enthused with the roundabout way he went about it.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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And frankly, even with a green flip, I think there is *at most* one scum currently on GB. The way the game has progressed has made me consistently gut read NM as town, and Eira/Alex have townvibed me. Vivax's behavior with Corwin has also townvibed me.
Unless I'm getting townvibes from all the wrong people I think this vote is almost entirely town driven regardless.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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I am a bit worried about one thing here.
There's a truckload of people I think are probably town with a red flip here (though some would require a red flip from Elsa to solidify). It always makes me a little paranoid when it feels like so much can get put together all at once because it generally isn't that easy to solve a massive chunk of the game all at once.
It actually happened last game though. The day 2 red flip obliterated the scumteam.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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If you're town and wanted to vaguely say you were a PR, the time was when you had 3 votes and several people indicated they were willing to vote you. The writing has been on the wall all day.In post 812, GeorgeBailey wrote:I'm a PR
At -1, this doesnt fly.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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We just had a game where town soft PR claimed at E-3 on day 1, and you were in it.
And frankly doing it that early is the only reason he survived the day.
Also, wrong.
Corwin had 4, Owen had 3, and you had 3.
And I had made it very clear I was willing to vote you and essentially take the Corwin train down with it. That train was dead without me.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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It's interesting how GB has 6 votes on him, yet Elsa is consistently blaming me and only me for him having a train.In post 817, Elsa Jay wrote:Of course Cres decided to ignore the crumbs from our PR and made him reveal. Great going there.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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How about you give us any indication of who that someone else should be?In post 821, GeorgeBailey wrote:are people really asking me to case here
i'm going to get fucking nightkilled
just unvote and pick someone else-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Why are you on Owen?
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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I'm fairly sure this was going to happen without or without my help.In post 827, Elsa Jay wrote:
Because you just made the entire town flip on a dime to a guy you admitted had less scum equity then Corwin or Owen. And as someone who rolls scum more often then most, I've picked up noticing PRs pretty well. That's why I was against this to start with.In post 820, Crescent wrote:
It's interesting how GB has 6 votes on him, yet Elsa is consistently blaming me and only me for him having a train.In post 817, Elsa Jay wrote:Of course Cres decided to ignore the crumbs from our PR and made him reveal. Great going there.
Youstilldon't seem to care which of the two we actually vote.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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GB is predictably faking being a PR at -1 and refuses to do anything to try to solve the game, meanwhile Elsa is hellbent on doing absolutely nothing but yelling at me because she doesn't actually care who we vote off out of Corwin or Owen.
So basically neither player is even trying to be pro-town at the moment.-
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Aren't most hammers flat?
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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Crescent She/HerMafia ScumShe/Her
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