Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[Datisi]

VOTE: ausuka

i am sure i will be having a blast this game

[Datisi]

bruh

VOTE: ph0enix

[Datisi]

i wouldn't want you to die alongside me if i ended up being dumb and getting myself killed though :<

[Datisi]

i think ausuka's reaction is what i'd expect from them rolling miller

I am willing to yeet Ausuka tbh

really?

[Datisi]

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Ausuka decided to fake claim miller as a mafia

isn't there a difference between "not outside of the realm of possibility" and "would yeet"?

[Datisi]

ok

why do you suspect ausuka

[Datisi]

I believe it's too early in the day to be talking about "yeeting" anybody

???

do you think the game has to be x posts long before we can talk about murder?

[Datisi]

i kinda think phoenix is townie

i am interested in the why

i like 39 from ausuka

I'm not really sure I get why you're asking so many questions without putting in much work yourself.

being at work and sneaking posts while my manager isn't looking has that effect

i think xayah is town because i struggle seeing scum have the 45 into 48 progression that she did. like, if she was gonna try to claim ausuka is scummy for making 3 posts about miller being the worst role in the world, which is false, i feel like she doesn't then immediately back down from it once she's questioned on it. if she's scum, she knew she was talking bullshit with the claim in 45; and if she knew that, i don't think she backs down from it at first sign of struggle.

I don't recall ever seeing a miller be in a micro, but if you have experience with a micro with a miller, please link me.

funny you should say that - viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79835

also i feel like we both know that nrg passes all kinds of shit, and seeing a miller in a micro feels like on the lower end of the weirdness scale?

I would like this day to last a long time so I can flirt with Dats more.

yet you're not flirting with me at all

curious

Do you think questioning me about whether mindmelding is a good towntell is going to help solve my alignment?

I don't think it's a good towntell, and in case it's not, your TR-ing Meg may just be an early attempt at pocketing as far as I'm concerned.

this first sentence doesn't really follow into the second i think

like, it seems to try to imply that ausuka is automatically scum for making a "bad towntell" despite not really thinking about whether ausuka is a townie that's just wrong. yes i know he said "may" there, it gives off a different vibe.

[Datisi]

I think the best way to move forward is to L-1 datisi. Days move faster with the threat of a lolhammer on the horizon, and if it does come the second day also moves fast. So i invite the miller to cast their vote, or anyone who wants to be the best player in this here lobby

mmm i really hate this. i feel like lolhammers aren't really uncommon, and lolyeeting a townie on day 1, 3 pages in, would be Not Really Good. don hasn't expressed actually being suspicious of me, so i'm assuming this is supposed to be a "for the pressure" vote, but like. what does he think it's gonna achieve in terms of my posting if i'm at y-2 or y-1?

[Datisi]

lol

scamper town?

[Datisi]

also i have a vibe townread on megazumarill and i will not elaborate

[Datisi]

i think xayah is town because i struggle seeing scum have the 45 into 48 progression that she did. like, if she was gonna try to claim ausuka is scummy for making 3 posts about miller being the worst role in the world, which is false, i feel like she doesn't then immediately back down from it once she's questioned on it. if she's scum, she knew she was talking bullshit with the claim in 45; and if she knew that, i don't think she backs down from it at first sign of struggle.

I don't think she knew she was talking bullshit with the claim in 45, even if she's scum. I think her making that mistake makes it more likely she's scum because it indicates she isn't really trying to read my posts and sort me.

i dunno

the way i see it, i'm more likely to be careful when making an accusation like that as scum, because i don't wanna come off like i'm pushing bullshit when i didn't intend to push bullshit

while as town i care less because i have faith in being able to scream my way into being townread again

i am projecting but /shrug

[Datisi]

phoenix kinda feels like he's trying to be ~logically correct and consistent~ without having the actual fire behind his posting

does that make sense? i hope that makes sense

scamper, what do you think

my way too early solve is 2 in {phoenix, done, coral}

[Datisi]

i thought it was just your first post

but upon opening your iso, i notice 15 also exists and basically i am dumb i'm sorry :<

[Datisi]

phoenix kinda feels like he's trying to be ~logically correct and consistent~ without having the
my way too early solve is 2 in {phoenix, done, coral}

What's Coral doing in there?

she's one of the people i do not townread at all

Spoiler:

excluding aristeia as well because i do not want to have her in my poe right now even though i don't have a reason not to have her there

[Datisi]

I think it felt like a TMI sort of angle.

what's tmi about it

[Datisi]

I also know that i won all the games i played that had a lolhammer.

i know this to be false as i modded a game you were town in that had a lolhammer and that you lost

also i absolutely hate this push-but-not-really on me

VOTE: done

[Datisi]

VOTE: 104 is an interesting thought process. i don't agree with it necessarily, but it vibes as real. so coral can be slightly townie i guess.

[Datisi]

bruh

104

VOTE: done

[Datisi]

i don't know why you asked me this tbh

becuz you townread birb

[Datisi]

I also changed my mind and decided Ari is town!

what changed your mind from your vote up until now?

[Datisi]

reading along the first half of page 6, i am not sure i get either coral or xayah votes.

it's like. i think coral's reason for switching off aristeia is *fine*, and i understand what she was trying to say when she said "tunnelled". maybe it's not the traditional use of that word, but it seemed obvious to me it was meant as "pho is only focusing here" rather than "pho is trying to fuckign murder ausuka". i don't really agree that that's townie, but. the "i changed my mind and ari is town!" did feel a bit ~performative~ to me, but i think performative-scum would've put more effort in than just saying "ye lol idk gut".

also yes i hate xayah misreps of ausuka. but i also don't think they're scummy because i struggle to see what is scum!xayah trying to achieve there. like, she's not pushing ausuka. she keeps insisting ausuka had an overblown reaction despite the entire game telling her otherwise. the only scum motivation i see here is wifom trying to purposefully go against the thread and like idk.

[Datisi]

also i am slightly getting worried about scamper because the fact they're posting against both of these is lowkey concerning to me

yes, i am assuming i am correct in both of them being town, shut up, i am very good at this game.

[Datisi]

Putting me on L-1 isnt cruel, it is what i want.

what do you think you will accomplish in this game by being put at y-1 that you cannot do while at y-2?

i don't get how you're coming to the conclusion that coral is trying to be open minded with you, when the entirety of her post towards you feels negative.

do you have any reads other than coral?

[Datisi]

oh, pho scumleans both coral and xayah too, that's beautiful

Datisi - trying to generate discussion in his first few posts. I understand the point Xayah made in one of her posts that the questions seem "low-effort" in a sense, but I generally think Town is more likely to want to ask questions of any kind than sit back and watch. I like the point he made about Xayah having backed down too easily once she was questioned on it. It's these points that I think are more likely to come from Town than from scum, not the questions he was asking at the beginning, though I think it's normal to start with basic questions at the beginning of the game before you have enough information to make up your mind and take a stance.

i feel like this goes back and forth on whether my early questions are townie or not, in a way that is meant to seem smart and nuanced but is actually not saying much at all.

I kinda see Don's point but I think suggesting such a move is too obvious to do as scum, if that makes sense? Like, putting so much pressure on yourself by suggesting such a thing is a suboptimal move from a scum POV, IMO.

i don't think this is exactly valid - there is a good subset of players, myself included, that hate when a lot of the game isn't voting and the day stagnates, because that usually lets scum get away with doing nothing. so i think there is also a decent subset of players that would've agreed to don's idea of putting people at y-1 early for the content or pressure or whatever. and the possibility of getting a yeet this early would've been great for scum, which is why i see it as a possible scum strategy.

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied.

i feel like coral very much did take a stance and called done scummy? she just didn't vote?

Though as I mentioned in a previous post, that begs the question if it wasn't meant to be a push, why bother in the first place?

expressing scumreads on people without immediately pushing them is a thing? xayah should probably elaborate first if she wants, but i feel like i see reason behind her actions you talk about here

[Datisi]

i should probably check some pho towngames to see if he's like this as town, usually. about to go to work, so i can't do that at the time, but. at some point soon(tm).

[Datisi]

well i think the reasons you have for townreading both of them feel a bit contrived and i'm not sure why i should be thinking the same way as you. idk, i'm suspicious of like half the game right now

i don't think you should be thinkign the same way as me

i am on the lookout of people pushing for ez misyeets

your pushes on them are kinda borderline easy but i haven't made my mind up if they're actually scummy yet

i should probably check some pho towngames to see if he's like this as town, usually. about to go to work, so i can't do that at the time, but. at some point soon(tm).

admittedly the readlist from phoenix doesn't do a whole lot for me, but i'm not sure what to be looking for in a list on page 7...

idk. it felt like using a lot of words that didn't need to be used. maybe there's no way you can make a huge wallpost on page 7. that's why i was gonna go take a look at his other games. maybe i still will. maybe i'll just read galron.

i dont understand what part of this vote switch is fine?

i think scum is more likely to come up with a more "visible" trajectory than go "ye it was gut lol". i'm not saying it's a great vote-switch, i'm just saying i can easily see it coming from a townie who first felt one way, then felt another way about ari.

ok sorry my eyes are glazing over i need to go to bed i'll read the wallposts tomorrow sorry coral

i kinda lowkey like 196. i wanna see what happens with whatever done is planning now. am i biased when people are pushing me. i might be. anyway.

VOTE: galron

give content pls k thx

[Datisi]

weren't a few other people pushing phoenix tho

okay, like. what i wanted to say is that i am on the lookout on people who are pushing potential townies for reasons that i don't exactly jive with. i'm not saying i have to agree, just that it makes sense even if i disagree. and your pushes around the two of those didn't make immediate sense to me. plus the fact i think they're town currently. and also the fact that singling in on one easy misyeet is risky because if that one somehow slips then you're in trouble, while testing the waters for multiple misyeets and seeing if there's any other easy ones would be Better. also pho could be your partner technically.

i did not feel like writing all of that out, so i hoped it would be self-evident by saying "scum wants easy stuff" sorry if it wasn't

pretend the paragraph is well-formatted, i'm about to sleep and i don't have the nerves to format it coherently

[Datisi]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

[Datisi]

i feel like you're still not understanding what i'm saying in that post or the posts leading up to it, but i am about to pass out so. tomorrow i will rephrase if needed ig

no i'm pretty sure i understand, it's just that i don't agree with your thinking, i don't see coral/xayah as "easy" misyeets, you seem to think they are clearly town and me not seeing this reflects poorly on my alignment, i don't agree with your reasons for townreading them and the logic for doing so seems kind of reach-y

and all that being said i don't really know what it means for your alignment this game

i feel like both coral and xayah did something surface-level scummy that could be pushable, because it's not very likely someone would get flak for pushing them after they did scummy-looking things

idk how else to explain it other than "scamper making a relatively safe (but surface-level) push against people i have reasons to townread = i should probably keep an eye out"

i feel like you're taking my arguments and amplifying their intensity to the point where they don't make sense and aren't what i said, then arguing against the amplified version

i don't think it makes you scummy exactly, but it's making this conversation Difficult(tm) and i kinda wanna drop it now because i don't think it's going anywhere productive

[Datisi]

maybe i'm just old-fashioned, but i'd rather done make a case against scamper first before voting there myself

[Datisi]

aristeia town
ausuka maf

no problem

so was ausuka "maf" a typo or am i misunderstanding 213?

[Datisi]

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

[Datisi]

That leaves Ari/Scamper

does this mean you townread everyone else, or...?

[Datisi]

who is the she

[Datisi]

okay

do you wanna vote her?

[Datisi]

ah, i thought you were saying she's scummy for it

is anything else on your mind :>

[Datisi]

I'm wondering why you're not as flirty as usual

i dunno. i wanted to let you do your thing for a bit first to see what you do. so i just kinda didn't :<

have a song? <3

Spoiler:

[Datisi]

I don't think you flirting with me really affects my process?

it's not that i'm afraid of distracting you, it's that my mindset was "i will focus on everyone except ari for now" and then i didn't interact with you much >.>

[Datisi]

Datisi's posting have very basic level solving with fluff inside it to add onto the posts given.

is this supposed to be scummy? or like do you think it is

and i'm not sure i get how i'd be getting threadspewed townie there

[Datisi]

Dats i don't really understand your read progression on coral?

yes

[Datisi]

btw, done, the l-word has been banned, so you probably shouldn't say it

[Datisi]

i realized i started mixing up ari's and galron's posts because i only look at avatar colour schemes bc reading names is difficult

anyway i get approximately nothing of that ari/xayah discussion

Why are you in particular looking for people who are making easy pushes? Is that something you always do, or is it specific to this game? The way you called it out made it sound like it's something you came into this game with the idea of doing.

it's not something i generally do. after seeing scamper disagree with me, i thought it might be A Good Thing to keep in mind. i was not pre-planning on it, no.

[Datisi]

My only real strong TR atm is the replacement

can you talk about this if you haven't already?

[Datisi]

ari, is there a reason you followed me on done and galron but not coral?

[Datisi]

Dats i don't really understand your read progression on coral?

yes

thank you datisi

also to circle back to this
there was no progression
i realized coral is doing A Thing that i often do as scum
her reply is *fine* i guess, i don't get much from it which is meh

[Datisi]

town

[Datisi]

that is partly a meme but i do townread ausuka so lol

[Datisi]

meg is still townie. the wiki link was funny but i also find it townie. it doesn't win favours it doesn't "look" townie but it's showing a thought process.

ari is also lowkey townie. the agruing with xayah doesn't do much for her position in game which like. idk why scum!her would care kinda. yes this is directly going against what i said earlier about their convo, fight me

every other slot feels muddy

ama

[Datisi]

why are you townreading me

overall thread presence feels like pushing the game forward

the going off xayah despite her being misreppy felt townie

thoughts against phoenix/galron felt townie

[Datisi]

it's actually kinda nice right now because there's a lot of clouds and a bit of wind, it seems like a summer storm is coming

i am hoping it is because that would mean few customers in the café and THAT would mean slacking off and playing mafia at work

also the scamper scumcase when you can pls

[Datisi]

it's raining!! thundering!! bless the weather gods

[Datisi]

@ausuka

i mean, i also thought the conversation was extremely fillery and boring and i lost my focus while reading it multiple times

but that's exactly why i kinda think ari is town for it, because it's something that seems she cared about and is doing it for *herself*, but that scum!her would know wouldn't actually help her accomplish anything because nobody would townread her for it

i am nto being vague, my head is just that empty
i can try to find what originally gave me that feeling, one sec

[Datisi]

That's because it kind of was! I felt a town vibe first and then tried to figure out where it was coming from after. I'm not terribly convinced it was a great reason, but it was fun to explore!

As town my mind is often a jumble of mixed-up thoughts and feelings. As scum I take care to express my thoughts clearly, which is easy to do because they're fake, and have clean and planned-out progressions. I wouldn't ever have reason to express a thought that I wasn't already confident I could state in a cohesive way and back up later, unless maybe put on the spot by pressure and I need to come up with a read on a partner. I think that's one of my weaknesses.

ok....i'm not really sure this changes my view, though

Okay. What about 123? What do you think is my mindset or motivation behind making that post as scum? Can you explain more where the feeling of "off" is coming from, and why that's more likely to come from scum?

@ausuka, this

when someone is correctly scumreading me, the thing i love to do is just continuously ask them what feels off and what do they not like about it and etc etc, and when they give a response continue arguing why they're Wrong, Actually

[Datisi]

ari is also lowkey townie. the agruing with xayah doesn't do much for her position in game which like. idk why scum!her would care kinda. yes this is directly going against what i said earlier about their convo, fight me

I worry about you townreading me for bad reasons -> scum!you :[

i can't wait to roll scum against you so that i can scumread you and you to townread me forever for it

[Datisi]

ausuka is my strongest townread currently

of course i have a level of comfort interacting w her

[Datisi]

i'm not really sold on ari being wolf, but i could wagon galron, yes

[Datisi]

how do we both get yeeted on d2

[Datisi]

not properly caught up w the last few pages but the reason i'm not too sure this comes from scum!ari is because town!her often does thinks that i think are scummy. like i was thinking her play way incredibly scum indicative when we were in a town hydra together. i do not trust myself to read her properly

which is why i wanted to let her do her thing and judge the results rather than the process (unless the process is obvtown)

ari, why am i scum other than being relaxed w ausuka?

[Datisi]

ari, why am i scum other than being relaxed w ausuka?

I think your reaction to the miller claim didn't feel uninformed and you're the person most likely to be ok with Ausuka fake-claiming miller right away.

you know i tend to err on the side of miller claims being +town???

[Datisi]

not properly caught up w the last few pages but the reason i'm not too sure this comes from scum!ari is because town!her often does thinks that i think are scummy. like i was thinking her play way incredibly scum indicative when we were in a town hydra together. i do not trust myself to read her properly

what am i even doing this game that you think is scum!indicative?

coming specifically from you, nothing

in general, a lot of things

i'd be calling for your head if you proposed a bop like that and had the scumteam you have with the flimsy reasoning you do if you were anyone else

[Datisi]

hello. i just came home from a horrible afternoon shift. i will be showering and going to bed as i am working in the morning tomorrow. consider this a mini-v/la. k thx bye.

[Datisi]

ok i read about 1/10th of posts and i scrolled through ari's isp a bit and i wanna say this is very likely town!ari bc i really don't think scum!ari loses her nerves like this

i see galron hasn't done shit since i was last here so how many votes is he on? i wanna vote him but don't wanna lolhammer

pls link me if i need to respond to anything

[Datisi]

VOTE: datisi

i wanna try this out for a bit

okay

have you learned anything from this vote by the reactions of others and is there anything you want me to respond to / look at

[Datisi]

my attention has been acquired

unfortunately i am not able to properly catch up until like 12 hours from now, so

the opening posts were better than his posts in the exploder game enchant modded recently. but i am not so impressed by him that i wanna let him skate by on d1 without content. and i remember thinking his last post or two were kinda uninspiring but idk

and yes, i think that has the intention of showing you that you're committing a strawman (which imho you were doing to me, at least at some point), but it doesn't draw the lamist attention to themself. it doesn't help fuel the me/you fight since i'm basically already accusing you of strawmanning myself so it's not new info to the table.

it's not a lock by any means but i do like the post

[Datisi]

It was something like you don't see the thing I do, at least the way I'm seeing it. How does that make me maf?

yeah, this post felt really boring to me and like a very uninspiring response

also, since i think ausuka and ari are both town, i think it's worth it getting our attention to lower impact slots than letting them storm up the thread even more

[Datisi]

i don't see why she would need to get angry about things here or why she would, like it seemed she was pissed at meg not playing efforty and i don't think that's likely to come from scum!her

and i don't think scum!her would enjoy faking rage

and no, i can't, there are none

[Datisi]

wrap the day up by voting whom?

[Datisi]

hi fuckers

i am here i am drunk time to fuckin CATCH UP

[Datisi]

OKAY I AM STARTING FROPM 337 LET'S SEE

355 is townie i don't care i feel it in my sOUL

i got to 405 and yes i still feel like this is likelsy town!ari bc like the only way i can see scum!ari doingt this is if she wants to waste time on nonsense and i don't see why she would do that

maybe if like, her partner is exactly ausuka vut that theam is wild tho LOL

[Datisi]

Aristeia if anything I would expect to have less flimsy reasoning than other people? I know you know her better than I do but can you explain it for me please

i cant explain it perfectrly

its just i know i cant really head her well because most of the things she does seem scummy to me so i susualyl plan to leave her to do her thing and then judge results

it's like, yes i know she has flims y reasoning and i am scumreading her for it BUT ive scumread her for it so many times before and i was wrong so lol

idk what to tell you other than she did similar stuf in other towngames

[Datisi]

ok if i'm worjignf rom aei/ausuko being t/t

scamper maybe prob town for not inflating that fight and townreading both of them

meg can maybe be scum for around 437 but i'll decide later propelrly

[Datisi]

yes i like 444 good post

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

i dont' understand how rhese two can exist togehter

also like, i don't suderstand what scum presence is ari trying to accmplish by shitfighting w ausuka when i feel like most people just ignore/skip that sorta thing or tend to maybe scumread it

[Datisi]

l-word

[Datisi]

also auska is town so try again

[Datisi]

do you fuck

yes

[Datisi]

also auska is town so try again

No

why

yes i like 444 good post

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue
To shade in a way that obfuscates your involvement

i dont' understand how rhese two can exist togehter

also like, i don't suderstand what scum presence is ari trying to accmplish by shitfighting w ausuka when i feel like most people just ignore/skip that sorta thing or tend to maybe scumread it

That post is a list of possible reasons. The intention was never all 3 concurrently. A or B or C not A and B and C

ok
still need a response to the towehr two

[Datisi]

To try and gain a strong scum prescence in the thread to direct conversations into this issue

this feels outright false based on what i wrote in 630

[Datisi]

I didn't continue arguing why he was Wrong, Actually, though, so how does it fit?

it fits bc your q reminded me of that and i wanted to press you on it

I would kill any other player who's posted what he's posted

????

oh wait ari ins't in the game anymore

oh well

[Datisi]

also auska is town so try again

No

why

Poe from you ari ausuka

?????????????????????????????????????????????????

pleasE tell me your poe is more than "these three people are active and therefore ????????? therefore one of them is scum"

[Datisi]

But it shouldnt matter because after his last few posts i am more and more leaning town on datisi.

why

[Datisi]

either link it or i'm gonna keep believeng im right

[Datisi]

hopefully I'll be able to share more about why I don't really think he's a wolf here soon so other people can evaluate the reasoning?

i would like this to happen when its possible please

[Datisi]

Done/Ari
Meg
Galron/Scramper/Coral
Datisi/Aus

Exactly 1 in the bottom row

i will need some actual explenations here

[Datisi]

and yes, i think that has the intention of showing you that you're committing a strawman (which imho you were doing to me, at least at some point), but it doesn't draw the lamist attention to themself. it doesn't help fuel the me/you fight since i'm basically already accusing you of strawmanning myself so it's not new info to the table.

it's not a lock by any means but i do like the post

see, this is what i struggle with because i have no idea how you legitimately think them accusing me of strawmanning u is somehow townie, its a completely random interjection thats easy to make and i have a hard time believing this is something u actually think, it just comes across as a complete tmi read

i mean. it's like. sorry htis is ironic but i feel like you're strawmanning right now. because my point wasn't just "they accused you of strawmnaning" it was the MANNER they did. and tisn not a locktown its like "this is more likely to come from town" idk how else to explain it i feel liek youre overegagerating it again.

[Datisi]

i don't think galron/datisi is like, at all likely. i'm not even super confident datisi is scum i just find a lot of what he says to be *hmm*, like that meg read.

why is that team specifically not likely for you and like, if you think i'm tmi-ing how likely do you think it is i'm scum?

[Datisi]

i don't think galron/datisi is like, at all likely. i'm not even super confident datisi is scum i just find a lot of what he says to be *hmm*, like that meg read.

why is that team specifically not likely for you and like, if you think i'm tmi-ing how likely do you think it is i'm scum?

[Datisi]

But it shouldnt matter because after his last few posts i am more and more leaning town on datisi.

why

@don

[Datisi]

i was more interensted in the scureads

[Datisi]

But it shouldnt matter because after his last few posts i am more and more leaning town on datisi.

why

@don

@don

[Datisi]

don answe my quesiton plese

[Datisi]

scamper

is it just me or are you really sassy this game

[Datisi]

scamper

is it just me or are you really sassy this game

i'm a little annoyed right now

understandable

get to 670 when you can pls

[Datisi]

town - {ausuka, arii, scamper}
town??? - {xayah}
ehh... - {donempire, coral}
sus - {meg, galron}

all tiers are from townier to less townie

VOTE: galron

should be y-2? idk

ik he said he's off weekend but the fact that most active people feel lijke town right now is making me feel more like it's scum in lurkers, not less

i sleep

[Datisi]

me neither

[Datisi]

But it shouldnt matter because after his last few posts i am more and more leaning town on datisi.

why

@don

@don

[Datisi]

i didnt get to make a case on ari

you can absolutely still make the case... i don't even know why you're scumreading her

[Datisi]

like i'm not saying that to sort her slot because i am very unlikely to be convinced by it, but this is like the second case you said you were gonna make and then didn't and i am annoyed

[Datisi]

yeah, i just realized he also said he was gonna make a case on you too lol

i am uh. not sure where "if the active people didn't have scum in it, this game would've been moving forward" because WHAT are we supposed to do? say we're all town, galron is scum, and we think galron is scum. he's not here. we can chat about other slots, but we simply cannot move forward until he appears. how is that our fault?

i am oversimplifying here but this feels like an important angle that don is overlooking for ??? reasons

i don't know if i find this scummy or if i'm just annoyed, i'll check some of his completed towngames before making a definite call

[Datisi]

done, is there a reason why you seem chronically avoiding my 653?

[Datisi]

I did a skim through and I'm okay with limming donempire at this point.

i dont understand why this is popping in like done is actually on y-1 or about to be yeeted or whatever

[Datisi]

I did a skim through and I'm okay with limming donempire at this point.

i dont understand why this is popping in like done is actually on y-1 or about to be yeeted or whatever

[Datisi]

done, is there a reason why you seem chronically avoiding my 653?

Yes

why tho

[Datisi]

also this hell of a hangover is making me not wanna read the scamper/meg fight so let me know if there's anything important in there

or don't, idc

[Datisi]

I also actually did read Claire (I’m gonna call Xayah/MariaR by this name from now on if that’s okay) right in my last game w her

this sounds like a great way for the rest of us to mix her up with coral but okay

[Datisi]

Datisi's most townie posts are when they're not sober (funny enough)

i have been told this before

also can you talk about why i went from "not want to vote d1" to bottom tier? i don't understand your thought process there

[Datisi]

Drunktisi was very entertaining

ended up puking my guts out but glad y'all found it entertaining

[Datisi]

but you should read especially megs portion because i agree with him on most points regarding ari

i read his 717 and i basically disagree with all of it so

[Datisi]

i would not mind at all if someone gave intent on galron to have him to claim

[Datisi]

lowkey wondering if he's scum trueclaiming his role

[Datisi]

oh look galron is still not back, geez i wonder

[Datisi]

i was gonna meme"hammer" now but that joke is too overdone

[Datisi]

[Datisi]

hold on i wanna give my thoughts on the miller stuff before we do

[Datisi]

lmao that pedit

[Datisi]

i townread miller claims bc i've never seen scum claim miller so even if they theoretically could do so, it's more likely they didn't imho

it's a good starting point at least

and i often do come across as pockety towards the players i townread. spoiler alert it is because i AM pocketing them. i do want my townreads to townread me.

i am not a fan of that coral post regarding my possible intentions behind my actions w ausuka, but i'll think about it later i'm tired rn

or never if i/she die tonight

anyway yeah ok that's that

[Datisi]

i have a vague feeling this game is fucked if galron flips town so i am ignoring that possibility for the time being

[Datisi]

TP/LO ON ME

[Datisi]

oh yeah i forgor to claim, i'm tanner

[Datisi]

if nobody gets the joke i'm gonna be amgery

[Datisi]

was i planning to do a deepdive on this game and have a 100% correct solve by daystart? yes. was i lazy and did absolutely nothing? also yes.

[Datisi]

VOTE: meg

i think i wanna start here. i disliked some of their posts, and also the jump on galron in retrospect looks kinda weird. idk it's midnight, i'm trusting my past self right now.

ari(gamma)/ausuka/probscamper still town on play. and i think xayah is Town, Actually. i don't think scum!her, upon seeing galron be about to go down, starts putting me and ausuka oin her most bottom tier, because, uh. i really don't think that we're viable executions here.

coral i need to take a second look at too, i guess. coming tomorrow before my shift. most likely.

[Datisi]

VOTE: datisi

Reread the game and realised this is obvious scum

what's the matter, miss sara?

[Datisi]

mostly for the insistence that ari is town when the ari/ausuka wars were happening, personally. esp since galron flipped red, i think a more competent scum would've tried to abuse that.

i did surface like most of their posts too, but uh. not something i'm actually gonna be using i think.

[Datisi]

I got town vibes for them

me too, but my issue is that i can point out at least a few posts for every alive player and say why i found them somewhat townie

but obviously they can't all be right

[Datisi]

i'm the keymaster

[Datisi]

I don't think scum! scamper kills done.

what does the don kill tell you?

[Datisi]

I can sort of see scum her not wanting to change course

i feel like this would be valid if she also hadn't gone from "i have a strong townread on galron" to "nvm he's like second from the bottom tier" in the similar span.

@coral, i feel like there was much more talk about people wanting to go galron, i know i was thinking i want to vote him, but not actually voting him at the time? i might have to review the actual timeline, but i don't think the vc is a good metric

[Datisi]

i feel like this would be valid if she also hadn't gone from "i have a strong townread on galron" to "nvm he's like second from the bottom tier" in the similar span.

I don't see why scum xayah changing one read would mean she couldn't decide to keep another constant? I also think it's a fairly required progression for her to have as either alignment because it's super weird to townread Galron when he clearly wasn't doing anything. I don't think that discredits the idea that she was looking to generally speaking not change course in the direction she was pushing.

i also think it's super weird to have me and you in her bottom tier, but i have a solid townread on you and i know my alignment so /shrug

This would imply scamper thought don was mislimmable. Why then would they kill don? Doesn't make much sense.

i don't think this is a good reason to townread scamper

i don't think scum always tries to achieve something with every single post they make. like i think a lot of scum sometimes just posts if they think it'll appear townie or whatever. and also gamestate changes with the galron flip. and ALSO we don't exactly know why don was killed (good reads, bad reads, pr hunting, etc) so this kinda argument overall feels like it's looking at only a few possibilities out of many and running with them

[Datisi]

ngl I hope someone tries to accuse me today because I have a very good reason why I wouldn't be partnered with Galron and I wanna slam someone with it

ur scum

also it's probably not strictly necessary for me to interject here but to save time, Datisi is saying scamper is competent scum and he doesn't think scamper was behaving in the way competent scum would making scamper town

I don't know if I agree with the assessment competent scum always try to use that argument opportunistically and never try and play reasonable and defuse it - I think especially that is kind of what scamper did with me and Marci last game to an extent

yes, that is what i was trying to say

i have arguments for why this gamestate and the other gamestate are different enough that it is +town for scamper here, but i should probably actually re-familiarize myself with it first before playing devil's advocate

[Datisi]

Xayah is my thought for partner atm. I feel like the 180 last minute feels like scum trying to catch the bus last minute.
The done kill is interesting, haven't considered the ramifications yet.

Is it overthinking to call this towny? I mean I'm not sure scum meg plays exactly this way. Like, definitely I can see them townreading scamper, but it feels like they're placing more of an emphasis on towncasing scamper vs scumcasimg xayah, whereas I feel like it's more intuitive for scum to do it in reverse. Does that make sense?

ehh... i lowkey got tmi vibes from their towncase post on scamper. because scum rn has to have reads anyway, and i think (1) it's easier to make correct townreads than scumreads, (2) it's easier to stay consistent with them, especially if you're towncasing someone who obviously isn't among the first people on the chopping block

[Datisi]

post #1000 is mine

[Datisi]

i mean
they're voting xayah, no?

i don't think scum wants to make a huge ass scumcase on a townie that people wanna kill anyway because (1) effort (2) it draws attention and can backfire later

[Datisi]

VOTE: datisi

i wanna try this out for a bit

okay

have you learned anything from this vote by the reactions of others and is there anything you want me to respond to / look at

no, i just wanted to get your attention

i'm not scumreading u per se but i'm not townreading u and was hoping that talking with you would help with actually sorting u

i'm rereading the game around this part and i get the vibe this is town!scamper. something feels counterintuitive to me about attacking me while both them and me are saying that ari is town for the meltdown and that ari/ausuka is t/t. bot not actually attacking me but ~pushing to sort me~. and then a few posts later (612) saying that they don't think me/galron makes and sense and that they don't even wanna kill me day 1.

this kind of "being all over the place" feels more likely to come from a town mindset rather than a scum one, i feel. because scum is obviously aware of who is town who is scum, and their informedness acts like a brake for making posts that jump all over the place like this, and lowkey act as shooting yourself in the foot on one front. and you could say "but scamper good at scum" yes i know. it still feels unlikely to do because this is not something that classically gets you towncred, but it does limit your future pushes. so.

lmk if i need to explain this better

[Datisi]

Done/Ari
Meg
Galron/Scramper/Coral
Datisi/Aus

Exactly 1 in the bottom row

i do still want explanations for the scumreads, as well as an answer to why you were townreading galron earlier on in the game

[Datisi]

i feel like it's meg because their play kind of just *fits* with what i'd assume buddy-with-galron would be doing. his slot started getting negative attention pretty early on in the game. your partner going down d1 is bad, in a micro normal it's Bad because you could just get fucked over with tprs. but i don't think there was anything to actually townread galron *on*, so what do you do? you hope for distractions. you stir up shit and hope people go to other slots. and i'm reminded now that meg did that both with ari in ausuka/ari, and with scamper.

this usually wouldn't be an issue by itself, but the fact that the arguments they've made about those two were not very good and were consistently getting called out as not very good and just kinda feel inflammatory is hm.

like, i guESS it's possible the partner was just not here and/or not doing anything to stop the wagon but i feel like it's somewhat unlikely both scum just decided to flop because. idk because the universe doesn't like me that much.

[Datisi]

ik they're not easy pushes to make. but was anyone an easy push back there?

(also something something refuge in audacity but i might be biased here idk)

[Datisi]

disagree on you and me but hm. i think the difference is that the people they were pushing were already in arguments and that they thought they could manufacture better arguments against them than say you or me.

that said, i am getting the feeling i'm trying to fit the facts into my theory rather than the other way around, so i'm gonna take a break and see what others think before deciding how i feel about it.

[Datisi]

Who is it if it isn't me Meg?

GE or Datisi would be my guesses.

popping in at work to see this, i am very curious how you came to these two slots

[Datisi]

@xayah is there a reason you keep avoiding my questions about your d1 reads?

[Datisi]

why were you townreading galron on entrance
why did you drop him later

link me where you explained me/ausuka?

[Datisi]

Coral I heavily townread.

?

[Datisi]

Datisi do you bus often?

depends if i think it's worth it or not. you'll find examples of me both hard defending and bussing partners if you look.

why?

[Datisi]

Datisi do you bus often?

yes

why did you say i'm not aligned with galron then?

[Datisi]

Datisi do you bus often?

depends if i think it's worth it or not. you'll find examples of me both hard defending and bussing partners if you look.

why?

I'm trying to track your consistency on the Ph0 Galron read and it looks good if you don't bus often but if you're an omegabusser I have to look at other areas because you look the best off the flip.

i really don't *like* doing busses but i have done a few very successful ones. not sure what i'd have done this game as scum, fwiw.

[Datisi]

i've already given a few reasons why i think scamper is most likely town, so no?

[Datisi]

this is basically close to my argument as to why im town, i think my play in my scumgame was significantly more "in control" in terms of what i did and how i reacted to things

ever so slightly raising an eyebrow since you seem aware of that, but alright

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

ctrl+f'ing "coral" through meg's iso, this at least tracks, though that doesn't mean i actually think this read makes sense. coral does write a lot of words, but a lot of them struck me as moreso playstyle than actual deep analysis. maybe i do owe her posts a reread, though.

This was the start of the reason I was wolfreading both of your slots. But, then as the game went on and it turned into "oh they're friends and oh this is Ausuka's personality" it made me pause. But, after pausing if I looked at it from just a base level you guys didn't look like partners and while I was kinda hardtownreading Ausuka for a lot of the thread (and mainly thinking you were a wolf)

in the world Ausuka wasn't a wolf it was hard for me to come to a world where you were a villager

.

i still don't understand where the bolded comes from. like, the way i'm reading this is "dats/ausuka are sus for their interactions with one another > oh nvm they're friends this is nai > ??? > if ausuka is town, then dats very likely isn't" and i don't understand what the ??? in your thought process here is

[Datisi]

I mean probably but it seems like a towny thought for meg to have? idk

is the only reason that is a townie thought from meg "coral is overall low in poe so it would benefit scum to push there and meg isn't pushing there"?

[Datisi]

i also did misread the xayah readslist with > signs, but. the explanation for it is *fine, i guess* and i don't really have a problem with xayah joking around, mostly bc that fits with their personality from what i remember of it.

and like. idk i think if you compare xayah and meg i think meg is playing like last scum standing more than xayah is. because i feel like xayah is taking the approach of "let's solve this game so that once i'm dead, this town can still get the W" and meg is taking the approach "push xayah through, feel out the thread for further pushes". because. i'm not overly convinced by their read on coral ("she's playing analytically and solving" wow ok), and i'm thinking it might be designed that way. to make people look at it and not be convinced by it so that hopefully others push coral through for them.

i'm also feeling uncomfy from the fact that their reads for scum seem to be xayah, then me and gamma, and gamma is very likely to never die and both me/xayah are the ones pushing meg. so this feels like getting ready for tomorrow where xayah is dead.

in gamestates like these, i'm always assuming scum is planning to win the game. so i'm looking for people that seem to be doing things that would allow scum-them to survive til endgame. and don't really think xayah fits that?

ok i'm gonna go eat then look at some other things

[Datisi]

i wish i wasn't constantly working afternoons these days bc there is basically nobody online during european mornings and i value real-time

yelling

interactions

@coral, what do you think about my 1127? anything specifically from meg that struck you as a townie thought process or whatever you called it?

@gamma, what are your thoughts on xayah rn?

@scamper, any reason you're not voting coral rn?

[Datisi]

i also think "I don't mind dying" is a pretty common and obvious approach for scum to take when they're in a pretty much impossible position

off the top of my head it's what wallflower did in pyp and i think hem did something similar

i think good scum players, like xayah is, are more unlikely to do that bc i think they know that town very very often calls that bluff.

like i'd be expecting someone with xayah's scum caliber to come into this thread and actively be shaking up the gamestate instead of solidifying it the way she's doing.

[Datisi]

that is what i said, yes?

pedit: well yeah, that is why i wouldn't expect an "actually ausuka is the final scum here actually, fuck you". i'd expect an "i think [scummy person] is final scum, but if they're not then we should maye be looking at [townie person] and [townie person]". because, if the town misyeets once, the gamestate could change well enough that the town doesn't just midlessly keep swatting in the "collective PoE" but starts looking around, or if they do swatting in the PoE then the person with more consistency looks better. and saying "we're killing in [me, scummy1, scummy2] this game" does the opposite of promoting the mindset lower-scum needs to win right now

[Datisi]

say xayah flips town. who's your next suspect?

[Datisi]

i'm not mad??? i'm not even 100% on meg being scum bc if i were i would be pushing much more strongly there. i'm just trying to Solve The Game, sorry if i came off condescending or something, wasn't my intention

[Datisi]

@meg, can you give me some examples of coral posts that you found analytically/nuancedly townie?

i just half-read through her iso, and while her posts aren't

bad

, i don't think i've seen anything that struck me as "this is analytical in a way that i really struggle seeing scum fake this". i don't think she's scum for it obviously, but it does make me wanna see more elaboration on the claim she's town for it.

i do think 476 and 482 (calling ari/ausuka/meg townie when they were shitfighting) are +town, considering that galron was already getting suspicion on him, and ausuka had just called out more of his posts. like, coral was at the time voting xayah, and i don't think that wagon was very likely to go though. and she also said she's still suspicious of don, which had a bit more chance to go though, but galron was already voting there and i don't think(?) scum is eager to double up like that in that gamestate. and the next person she'd logically push would be galron, based on 279.

this also strikes me as a counterintuitive progression to have as scum with galron. it doesn't help galron, it doesn't look good as a bus.

[Datisi]

more nuanced read

what

there's not that much motivation for doing so as scum

what

[Datisi]

i kind of think she acts like that no matter what in her position tbh, about the only way she doesnt get flipped here is if enough people decide she looks like shes really willing to die and second-guess onto someone else. (im also a little paranoid of her townreading me so strongly)

xayah feels weird as last scum here because she's doing the opposite of what i'd expect last scum to be doing. like, we all know that "lol flip me idc" is basically never getting you not flipped. so i don't think i'd expect competent scum to say that, rather than be more aggressive. but, if that is the tactic she's employing, then i'd expect her to fake a lot of thoughts about the game to look like she's solving. instead she's having thoughts that she's not transparently showing in the thread, and i feel like scum-her focused on survival would be able to do that. it's like she's choosing the worst of both worlds.

so then we're left with "she's trolling until she gets flipped", but that doesn't feel right either.

[Datisi]

I mean she has a push pool of meg coral datisi

I don't really buy the argument that because she's unlikely to win with her current tactic she wouldn't choose it, because she's really unlikely to win with any tactic

Hahahahaha you haven't seen me as a wolf before

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=75989

It was a while ago admittedly but when I saw you as a wolf before you did this exact thing so :shrug:

can you point me at which part of this i should be looking at?

[Datisi]

Dats what do you think :v

based on the roles that have flipped so far, and my own knowledge of normals: if scum is inexperienced, it's very much possible they shoot themselves in the foot with massclaim. however, if they know stuff about massclaiming, then we're likely just telling scum where to shoot.

so i think i'd hold off until day 3.

[Datisi]

i wish i was confident enough on xayah!town to try to hijack the thread, but i'm not. maybe i'm wrong. even if i'm not wrong, this flip is probably needed anyway.

i am interested in hearing xayah's thoughts on scamper, though. and if she has meta on gamma, i'm likely to just locktown that slot even further (and then blame xayah if we lose because of it).

[Datisi]

mmm
gut is telling me it is Probably Just Meg Still, but

i really wanna see what meg and scamper put out first
and i wanna properly revisit a few events on day one to make sure i'm not retconning them in my mind

maybe massclaim today too, i'll decide tomorrow

ok off to bed, see ya in the morning

[Datisi]

scamper, what do you think about massclaiming?

[Datisi]

what's stopping you from sharing it now?

[Datisi]

i mean

i feel like you can adjust your ~thoughts~ based on claims?

[Datisi]

you don't see a point why scum!you wouldn't want to present reads that could age awkwardly if claims go down a certain way amd force you into awkward re-evals or just straight up make you die?

[Datisi]

yeah, obviously it is? but hiding some of your thoughts in the name of "don't want to give scum info for their fakeclaim!!" has a very clear scum-motive behind it, while the town-motive is much more of a stretch? especially as you have already claimed your role, and i don't see how your thoughts on the game would even affect scum's claim if you're town

[Datisi]

agreed

town n1 neapolitan, got a not-vt result on meg on n1

[Datisi]

scamper, what do you think about massclaiming?

im all for it now

the main reason why i was asking that is because it seemed weird to me that you're slotting meg as town on the basis of them not being vt (and their interactions with the flipped complex cop), when most of the game was still unclaimed

[Datisi]

oh yeah, popcorn to scamper if we're still doing that

[Datisi]

Oh I did not expect, that is juicy I guess

yeah uh, i had no clue how to play that result on day 2 with both getting meg to claim AND not tipping them off that something is up lmao

[Datisi]

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

if theres a point of concern, its that i feel he backed off on the read a little too quickly when galron subbed in, esp because galrons posts were kind of bad

sometimes when scum are bussing but dont really want to, they will look for a backdoor, a reason to get away from the read and push somewhere else. its something im very self-conscious about and its pretty observable in other people too, you start bussing because you assume your partner might go down, but if people start making excuses for them its very tempting to back away so as to not have to bus

so, like, i *could* see this post coming from a phoenix partner, but xayah said something very similar and was town so its not like this is a smoking gun

how familiar are you with my game? not trying to althunt; i'm assuming you are familiar since you very quickly answered "yes" to "does datisi do the bus", but if that's so then are you familiar with how self-conscious i am as scum too?

[Datisi]

I also think you had a decent chance of eating a nightkill.

i was under the impression that coral was overall in the poe pool, at least at EoD yesterday?

anyway, brain off until the end of the massclaim ig, ama in the meantime

[Datisi]

yeah, that's why i backed off them when i saw that they were hinting to be a power role

then i went to sleep and they claimed backup neighbourizer and xayah got hammered

lole

[Datisi]

this spoon needs washed, and also has a fear of heights

i am terrified of heights, so i'm the spoon

(i could also very much be the baby too, though)

[Datisi]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

[Datisi]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

[Datisi]

I really don't think it's Coral here?

My reasoning is that she immediately claimed in her PT on day 1 and committing hard to clearing me like that would be too much of a big brained gambit for me to accept I think, I don't think scum chooses to play around me like that. In particular I think being informed that the miller is town makes some sense, whereas scum having information about a miller is just super super weird given miller always claims

this is where i am at, roughly. i could see a scum role being informed of the setup (which is my current guess, actually), just being informed that there's a miller is lol. so that part would have to be completely made up. so that'd be a scum player that decided to confirm one player as town very early (even before knowing they'd be conftown due to one scum dying day 1), and hope that there are no town roles that would make that roleclaim look bad.

[Datisi]

i feel like we're getting distracted by mechanical shiny bullshit (god knows how often i've seen it happen in the games i modded) when the game is lowkey simple

ausuka is our lord and saviour

coral committed to a roleclaim as scum very VERY early, which is something i really struggle to see coming from scum

when i was rereading parts of the game for Hood Reasons, i saw how often scamper seemed to be pushing non-galron people, but not with an intent to kill them, rather than sort them. he did that to me, he was arguing with meg while still saying they can be town, etc. and also the weird dissonance it would require from scum to push me to "sort" me, then immediately announce me to be unlikely partner to galron and that he doesn't want to kill me d1 anyway. i can quote them if needed, but i just don't think it's likely.

and then there's meg, who's having a very convenient turnaround onto me/coral, who seemed to be trying to find counters to galron on day 1, who was trying to agitate people on d1 and egg on shitfights, and it's just. it just feels simple. i was honestly thinking on d2 that they seemed like thry have a clear cut plan towards endgaming here, no matter the odds actually being not that great.

[Datisi]

VOTE: meg

[Datisi]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

so trying to play up both the angle that coral is still kinda +town for them but not much, but also not really because they were aimed at pho, just feels like doing a necessary backtrack to get coral voted out today

because im struggling to see an overarching thought trajectory here

[Datisi]

It was mainly my stance about having no clue between datisi/ coral and my resons for each but most of that ended up being implied/ fairly obvious.

weren't you strongly townreading coral up until today? like, ik you were suspecting me/gamma yesterday, so after gamma's death, what made you go me/coral?

to add to this a bit, meg said that they found coral to be town bc she was being analytical/nuanced. i don't see how that goes away if coral was talking about phoenix, bc making analytical posts as scum is theoretically equally difficult if aimed at townies or aimed at scumbuddy

You don't think scum has more reason to have a nuanced townread on their partner than on a townie? Difficult or no they have better reasons to do so.

it's not about whether they have or don't have reason to do so

if you tell me you're townreading someone for making analytical/nuanced posts, i am assuming that to mean "this person is making analysis that would be difficult to fake as scum", not "this person is positioning themself in a way that doesn't make it likely from scum"

the latter changes with flips, the former doesn't

[Datisi]

i feel like we're getting distracted by mechanical shiny bullshit

coral committed to a roleclaim as scum very VERY early, which is something i really struggle to see coming from scum

These feel counterintuitive to each other, both condemning people for mechanical analysis and yet clearing someone specifically for an early claim in a PT they have full control over.

It feels like trying to take only mechanics that's beneficial to what they are trying to do right now but ignoring the ones that go against them.

ok, i'll write out the longer version:

i don't think coral as scum prepares their fakeclaim as early as they did

people are trying to mechsolve this game (e.g. scamper is trying to outguess the setup in a way that i have seen go bad so many times) when this game feels much simpler and solvable via dayplay. like i've played in and modded a lot of normal games. i know mech, i know nrg brains, and i know when people are getting lost in discussing setups when they should be discussing who's acting scummy. and it annoys me.

[Datisi]

i think its actually highly super unlikely that all of don/dats/corals roles can exist in the same game and be town

if you take for granted that they all are, you could potentially have 3 players mechanically cleared on day 2 of a micro

that seems like it would be incredibly unbalanced

i've been thinking about this the last few days - i think you're not thinking about it the way games actually are balanced. like, theoretically, yes, 3 confirmed townies could be present on day 2. (and this is assuming that town doesn't kill scum d1 and doesn't think one of them is fakeclaiming a clear on a partner.)

but it's also possible that there is only one confirmed townie on day 2, like it happened here. my role ended up not giving a clear, don got shot (he wasn't guaranteed to get a result anyway), and now mine and coral's claims are making each other look worse than we would've been individually. (which is also a factor in balancing.) and that's not even going into what scum possibly has as power roles.

like yeah, best case scenario for town is lol, but the worst case scenario for town is also lol. that's swing, not imbalance.

also, not that i necessarily agree with the following, but 3 cleared townies on d2, (7 alive, 2 scum alive) is still 50% ev.

again i dont see how u can balance around "in the worst case scenario for town scum has a chance", as a design philosophy thats super busted, u need to examine how easy it is for town to get a near lock based on rhings going right

well no, it's "best case scenario for town, scum still has a chance". like, i don't *agree* with that design philosophy, and i probably would've had words for this setup had i been a reviewer. but it's how games are, swing is inherent in normal games, and especially when most of the town power is coming from unreliable investigatives.

like, "based on things going right" is literally never assumed when balancing normal games because things almost never go exactly right for town with power roles. it's looked at both how likely it is that things go right, and that they go horribly wrong.

[Datisi]

i'm thinking how to approach scamper, and i'm reading meg trying to argue they'd kill a miller, and i am struggling(tm)

i'm in a similar boat to ausuka, where i townread everyone except meg and i scumread meg and i think that yeet wins us the game. and i have laid out reasons why i think that, but i feel like scamper hasn't interacted with those but is instead doing the "if this is wrong i'm instavoting you in yeetlo fuck you" and it's

frustrating

.

[Datisi]

I think it is probably one of them if it's not meg - I don't think a game with only one vanilla townie would be passed.

it wasn't - in the universe of scamper!scum, there's 2 vts

[Datisi]

36 hours left, and i'm basically gonna be v/la the last 24 of them because ya bo got another afternoon-into-morning torture session coming up

scamper, if you got the time tonight, can you give me a tl;dr of why meg is so townie to you? and/or link it to where you've explained it. because at this point i'm not even sure why you're townreading them so strongly, which might be my own fault, but you're stuck in this game with me, so.

[Datisi]

y'all murdered xayah and already forgot about her, huh

[Datisi]

i literally was arguing for all of yesterday why i thought it was u and not megs and why your roles didnt make sense in terms of balance. ausuka didn't want to hear it, datisi didn't want to hear it, literally everyone else was tunneling meg. what are you expecting me to do, exactly?

and in terms of balance, i was arguing that setups can be more complex than it seems, and that making mechanical assumptions and betting the game on them can be dangerous. meg flipped town, obviously, but i still hold that they were not clearable by mech.

regarding the play, the issue is that i thought my reasons for scumreading meg were better than your reasons for scumreading coral. and i don't think i was ever going to see scum!coral without first seeing town!meg.

here's the thing, you said multiple times that you thought meg's play was town-indicative. but when i asked you to lay out the reasons why you think they're townie, or to engage with mine, you basically ignored me. and it seems like your reasons for townreading meg went deeper than "coral is scummy ergo everyone else is towny", so why is that?

[Datisi]

if its not meg i will be snapvoting dats in elo

bfore someone asks: "haven't you been saying you think it's coral?" yes. i do. but the two plausible scenarios in case we get there are either that 1. i am wrong in my read and have been all game or 2. dats and ausuka roadblocked me all game from killing the last scum at which point victory was never an option to begin with

how did 2. translate into "dats is literally never going to vote coral in yeetlo" (or rather, what about me gave you that impression), and what made you change your mind from the snap-voting-at-yeetlo plan?

[Datisi]

on the subject of the setup...

town complex cop
town miller
town informed neighbourizer (miller is town)
town backup neighbourizer
town n1 neapolitan
2x vt

vs

mafia goon
mafia ???

---

town complex cop
town miller
town backup neighbourizer
town n1 neapolitan
3x vt

vs

mafia goon
mafia ??? neighbourizer

the bottom one does feel more ~elegant~, but i wouldn't put it past nrg to pass the upper one with some sorta stronger role for scum left (roleblocker, alien, etc)

i'm probably taking my own advice and not trying to force this via setup mechanics. which means i gotta reread scamper's arguments about coral and both of their slots. which is fun. gonna go eat something first.

[Datisi]

i reread scamper's iso while specifically looking for their reads on meg (that weren't mechanics related), and what i found is

during day 1, the posts that show meg as +town are:

Spoiler:

i think meg is, like, wildly incorrect but it might be townie

and so now i have ari/xay/auss as townie, meg maybe a shade below that

and so this is kind of making me suspicious of dats in the remainder of people, because i dont think hes towntold and some of his takes have made me raise my eyebrow a bit

truthfully i had been theorizing dats/coral in the early game but i think that is slightly less likely right now

and i'm also finding don suspicious now

i hate that the reasoning meg has given on everything is so completely bad and illogical here that i have to consider if this is just scum making terrible nonsense pushes


but i hate even more that i feel like this still might be coming from town

UNVOTE:

that vote was a pretty emotional one and i'm not really sure meg is the most likely player to flip scum even if i find them be wildly anti-town

(for the record, above is not serious. i don't think Meg is significantly likely to flip scum, i just felt like making a point)

i wanna vote Galron at this point but don't wanna E-1

and posts from d1 that seem to be more suspicious of meg are:

Spoiler:

the more i read 529, the more slimy it sounds

UNVOTE:

VOTE: meg

i went to read white flag holder thinking this is probably not scum~meg and now i'm less sure because they're doing the same disingenuous tunnely bad pushes there

i'm including the short-lived vote in that, i can see the argument against including it, but i don't think that overly matters for my point here

d2 +town on meg:

Spoiler:

i went and did a little research on phoenix overnight

he has two competed scumgames on site:
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81690
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=82442

in both of these he shows a pretty typical newb-scum pattern of play, distancing from his partner but avoiding directly pushing them until it's necessary, making excuses for staying off them

with that in mind, i think its highly likely his partner is in the bottom half of his reads list here

[snip]
i kind of dont think its xayah because i dont think phoenix goes for a partner as a first option

i dont think its datisi or ausuka because i dont think they push their partner like that very early in the game (i especially think the way ausuka handled phoe is clearing)

ari-slot i think is just always town

i could see it being meg, except i sort of think theyre just town on play

i think coral seems the most likely and makes the most sense

From my perspective, it looks like you're openly just having fun messing around as caught scum, because I don't think anything you're saying here makes sense from a town mindset.

thats not really the impression i get at all, and i dont think shed mess around as scum

Coral all throughout the game has been very analytical, nuanced, and her thoughts feel really grounded within the game. It's evident that they are trying to solve the game beyond just a surface level to try and appear townie.

i think shes going to post analytically regardless of alignment...

I mean probably but it seems like a towny thought for meg to have? idk

yeah im not particularly sussing meg, i think their play is more aloof as scum

d3:

Spoiler:

i dont care to rgue setup spec anymore because i dont agree and ultimately i dont think megs play this game comes from scum

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

[Datisi]

i went to read phoenix's iso in 1976

first of all, flashbacks

second of all:

Spoiler:

Subject: Newbie 1976 - Game Over

Readslist, as promised:

Datisi, Salad

I have to speak about these two in the same paragraph. As far as D1 goes I was fine with Datisi apart from some minor stuff. I disagree with Norway that Datisi's been townreading Salad from the start, it doesn't seem so. When she starts townreading him, though, her main argument is him often acting in a similar way as Town. I'll ignore the whole thing about if the Mason should have claimed or not because as I already said I think there are good points to both sides of the argument. The townread on Salad is the point that has to be addressed here - speaking from my point of view, if I ignore the fact that Salad's Town playstyle is similar to the one he's showing us in this game, I still have some things that bugged my about him from D1 that I have already addressed as well as the fact that he hasn't posted much on D2. Also, him ignoring some of the questions asked is pissing me off, honestly. The fact that he gave up defending himself is not alignment-indicative whatsoever. I could see Datisi giving him a null read, as there are some things about Salad on D1 that I liked, but also some things I didn't. But a townread, I'm not so sure.

Datisi -

null

Salad -

Leaning scum

Norway, Naerys

Also have to address these two together. No problem with him whatsoever on D1. On D2, him starting to suspect Datisi based on the sole fact that Datisi didn't want the Mason to claim I don't understand. The vote-unvote on Datisi I also didn't like. Let's proceed to the Naerys townread then, that's the key point here. Naerys had a bad start, imo. 174 I particularly do not like. Overall, not impressed by her D1. D2: quick to suspect Datisi for no good reason, quick to vote Salad as well, based solely on the evidence from D1 instead of questioning him first. Proceeds to reconsider because... reasons, I guess? So, in general, does the Norway TR on Naerys make sense? No. Why did Norway proceed to vote Naerys after townreading her for so long? I don't know.

Norway -

null

Naerys -

Leaning Scum

Map Wolf

D1 was okay, except some stuff, such as his lingering vote on my slot or him voting my slot along with Non in the first place. D2, though, he's basically non-existent. Overall, not a lot to go off of but from what I have as information currently:

Map Wolf -

Leaning Scum

Non Imh

Town, solely because if she was not the Mason the real Mason should've claimed by now, I find. Her overall play I don't like.

Non Imh -

Town

To all three of my scumreads: What are your thoughts about the game right now? Reads, anything else you want to share? And given that we're 28 pages in I would like a more thorough answer, not shotgun reads or something. I think it's not much to ask.

The same goes for Non, now that I think about it. Look alive.

writes a lot about the townies, writes barely anything about his scumbuddy (and about the mason claim)

i need to check the other game too because one game does not meta make, and scum does sometimes switch up their play, but
it's intriguing at the very least

[Datisi]

Subject: Newbie 1976 - Game Over

Also i spent the last night being awake and i just set my alarm 10 minutes ago to check if i died or not

So I'm still bit groggy and might just go back to bed for now

this post was made at 5pm my time lmao

pulling all-nighters 3 times a week, chugging 10 cups of coffee per day, literally not having a sleep schedule anymore, those were the times

anyway yes what were we doing

[Datisi]

ok, i skimmed the first half of the iso in the other scumgame, looked like some token distancing but nothing too serious

and no colourful readslist for me to compare smfh

[Datisi]

like, correct me if i've missed anything, but the closest thing to an explenation of meg's towniness is "they're more aloof as scum" in 1144. and i usually hate going "please explain every single thought you've ever had", but i really don't understand how you came to the conclusion of meg's play being so strongly towny?

i thought i got into it but basically when meg and i got into that heated 1v1 on Day 1 basically while i felt they were incredibly frustrating, they ultimately really believed all the stuff that they were saying and scum basically rarely gets into a tiff like that. they went from aggressively provoking ari to aggressively provoking me and scum just doesnt play that way. i dont know how to explain it futher its just that sometimes when you get into a big argument with someone you just get the sense you *know* theyre town

i also thought the claim was believable and made sense as a town role in the setup not that it matters

how does this compare / coexist with 739?

[Datisi]

do you think there's a difference between meg's play in this game and meg's play in that game still then?

pedit: i'm working afternoons the next three days, which is going to be annoying since you both seem to be more active in my afternoons, but i'll probably shift my sleep schedule somewhat to accommodate for it (yes mafia is very important)

[Datisi]

also, so i don't forget: scamper, do you have any opinion on my ~self-towncase~ post in the hood?

[Datisi]

another thing that struck me as a possibility of phoenix's scumplay is not that he perma-scumleans his partners, it's that he mimics the thread's read on them (i'm assuming teacher was scumread in that game since he flipped day 1)

unfortunately, scamper was townread and coral was scumread at the time of his readslist, so this is not helpful >.>

[Datisi]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

i would like to see coral comment specifically on this post

as for the rest, i wanna reread some of it in context, and i gotta go get ready for work so i'll do that after i'm home tonight

[Datisi]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

i would like to see coral comment specifically on this post

as for the rest, i wanna reread some of it in context, and i gotta go get ready for work so i'll do that after i'm home tonight