HMS Mutiny [Game Over]

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I don't think you're a VT for one.

But you're right actually, I didn't run the numbers before making that speculation.

[Radical Rat]

Titus was an investigative, so that doesn't make sense

[Radical Rat]

They could have been informed about Bella? Not that it was her specifically, but "A role exists that may interfere with your kills" type deal?

[Radical Rat]

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

[Radical Rat]

I am a Miller, but I also have one shot role.
I have one shot delayed vig.

I’m the asshole who shot enchant.

I was in between him or gimli, but in the end I picked enchant because I had something bugging me in the way he was engaging with me.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

Does Town call themselves an asshole for correctly shooting scum?

Does Town get weird and cagey about information contained in part of their role.... When that information doesn't actually exist at all?

[Radical Rat]

Idk the more I think about this the more sense it all makes

[Radical Rat]

Fuck it.

VOTE: Malakittens

I'm going to be very angry with myself if it's just Gimli and I talked myself out of being right again, but. I can't let this go if I'm right.

[Radical Rat]

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

[Radical Rat]

I mean. You've been very loud and very keen on pushing Townies. If I were scum, I wouldn't kill you.

[Radical Rat]

Having two Town vigs is also really weird, isn't it?

[Radical Rat]

Look at Titus' Role PM. Look at Enchant's Role PM.

Every attribute and ability they have is explained. There's no way Malakittens just has "You're a miller" with no elaboration.

She's lying.

[Radical Rat]

Look at Titus' Role PM. Look at Enchant's Role PM.

Every attribute and ability they have is explained. There's no way Malakittens just has "You're a miller" with no elaboration.

She's lying.

[Radical Rat]

I recognize the tinfoil, but it makes everything else make sense, and catching the lie about their role is just confirmation

[Radical Rat]

No I'm arguing that Mala explicitly confirmed that she was told she's a miller, but not told what a miller is or how it works in the setup, and I don't believe that because every aspect of everyone else's role has an explanation

[Radical Rat]

Look at Titus' Role PM. Look at Enchant's Role PM.

Every attribute and ability they have is explained. There's no way Malakittens just has "You're a miller" with no elaboration.

She's lying.

[Radical Rat]

If Aisa sent out a Role PM that didn't explain what the person's role actually does, whether it's a normal role or not, I would consider that to be, at the very least, abysmal design.

I do not believe that happened.

[Radical Rat]

Reading a wiki page should not be a requirement to understand your role PM

[Radical Rat]

You aren't actually reading if you think Gimli threw that out to attract my attention onto Malakittens.

[Radical Rat]

I was already calling Gimli guilty BECAUSE of Malakittens' claim. Calling attention to it when that's the basis for the guilty doesn't make sense.

I am admittedly very concerned about Gimli potentially pocketing, but also I really think I'm right here. If Malakittens flips green, and indeed the miller thing is in the role PM, then I'm lockvoting Gimli no matter what.

But right now, the world makes the most sense when Malakittens is lying.

[Radical Rat]

This is a mechanical guilty.

At least one of Elements/Gimli/Malakittens MUST be lying.

Malakittens I believe I have caught lying because the behavior is inconsistent and her claim contradicts the established information we have.

I'm not moving.

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

[Radical Rat]

Explain to me why Malakittens feels the need to hide knowledge she doesn't actually have from scum, Joker.

[Radical Rat]

Or anyone, really

[Radical Rat]

Sure. Because you've been right every time you make a decision and stop talking about it so far. Why would talking about and explaining things be any help to you or anyone else now?

[Radical Rat]

Yes, you did say all of those things.

And I have addressed them. Gimli deflecting onto the reason I'm accusing him doesn't make sense. Even if you don't accept my idea that a role PM should include information about the role, Mala's bit about trying to hide information from scum conflicts her statement that there is no information to hide (that's the part you won't address). You saying Mala claiming the vig D1 would be anti-Town is irrelevant because I never argued she should have.

So I'll reiterate. Why would someone who does not have information pretend that they do and argue that nonexistent information should stay hidden?

[Radical Rat]

Alright then, what didn't I cover? Please don't just quote wall me again, be specific.

I know this is a somewhat unintuitive push. If I'm wrong I don't want to follow through on it, so I'd like you to show me where my mistake is. If I'm right though, I obviously need to convince you.

And I get that you think I'm scum right now, but this is helpful for anyone else who's confused also.

[Radical Rat]

Malakittens has been caught in a lie, and I have yet to see an actual substantive refutation to that.

It is theoretically still possible she's scum with either or both of Elements/Gimli, but Malakittens is the only one who has been blatantly caught lying about her claim.

I get it, she shot Enchant and that makes people want to townread her. But she has been caught actively lying, and not in a way that makes any sense at all for Town to do.

This is the way it must be. Resolve the caught scum first, figure the rest out later.

[Radical Rat]

If I'm wrong, I will take full responsibility for the mislim, but this Needs to happen. I am not going to let caught scum get away while we chase after maybe-but-increasingly-unlikely scum.

[Radical Rat]

Then explain the contradiction in Mala's posts. Tell me why I'm wrong not just that I'm wrong.

[Radical Rat]

You even said earlier that Mala/Elements makes sense. Why is Mala lockdown now?

[Radical Rat]

I recognize I made the argument earlier of scum making mistakes, but even so I have to ask...

If I'm scum here why do I pick the absolute hardest possible mislim to try to sell people?

[Radical Rat]

If anyone at all can come up with a reasonable explanation for Mala contradicting herself about her role, I'll back off.

But so far none of you have even bothered trying, because Enchant making the most milquetoast throwaway question ever with zero follow through counts as "couldn't be distancing"

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

[Radical Rat]

Eiralox, I swear to God if you're Town I... Hope you have a very nice day regardless, but please think about this better.

[Radical Rat]

You're not listening to me Harley.

I don't care that she didn't claim the killing part.

I care that she acted as though she had information, then claimed there was no information. THAT'S the contradiction.

[Radical Rat]

Eiralox, I swear to God if you're Town I... Hope you have a very nice day regardless, but please think about this better.

Nah. I'm done thinking.

Elements has lied from Day 2. So. You telling me the only person who's managed to flip scum this game is scum is like...... you don't see how you're not gaining this mis-elim, aren't you?

If ya'll focused on tunneling me or Killing Joke ya'll might have stood a chance, especially as BBT was sus of us both this day.

But I'm tired hearing my own voice.

I'd like to hear from Bella and MalaKittens, whenever, then I'm just voting Gimli.

And where is your evidence that Elements lied? You haven't said anything other than "it could be faked" this whole time. And you're right! It could be!
But I HAVE EVIDENCE Malakittens did like. That takes priority over a maybe.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Mala’s best move if scum would be to shoot us. I understand why you disagreed with that @RR but my reasoning is that she’d very easily have been able to get away with that because why would she shoot the player with the strongest tr on her?

~H

Well, Tracker's dead, she'd be under no obligation to claim responsibility.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

[Radical Rat]

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

[Radical Rat]

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

[Radical Rat]

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

I just don’t see why she shoots Enchant if scum here? He was outright rolefishing her. Are you going to argue that she tr that? And if so, don’t you think she would realize it would look terrible for her if Enchant would have hypothetically flipped town?

~H

She wouldn't have had to claim responsibility if she hit a Townie. No tracker, no accountability.

Also Enchant did the same thing to Elements, except he actually voted for Elements a couple times. Should Elements be out of the pool as well?

[Radical Rat]

Nope. Enchant rolefished and distanced from Elements. Can't be scum.

Or does your logic only apply to caught liars?

[Radical Rat]

In all seriousness though, while it is POSSIBLE Elements is scum, I am voting where I have proof first.

If Mala flips green, and there is indeed a bit about Miller, then Gimli and Elements become the top suspects.

If Mala flips red, it's still a maybe on Elements, could have been that she claimed the results to defend her and didn't think through the implications of the Miller claim, but we'll also have another pair of results to work with and we can figure it out from there.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

When have I ever said that was in Mala’s meta? Like NEVER! I was looking at it from a purely logical perspective and I’m not Joker and I’m not limming my strongest tr in the game because they’re MAYBE traitors.

Also, what traitor ever in the history of mafia shoots a player they think is likely scum for towncred anyway? Isn’t that like the antithesis of what they’re supposed to be doing? Like in Community Redux where there were actual traitors, traitors knew that they were expendable but that groupscum wasn’t. So if Mala’s traitor, than she’s defacto gamethrowing here by shooting Enchant. Occams razor says I’m right and you’re not.

~H

Sorry, I misread your earlier post. You said Pooky shot a teammate before, not Mala. Disregard that point.

Unrelated, but that is a very scary bear...

[Radical Rat]

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

[Radical Rat]

Elements hasn't been caught lying in thread.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Why are you townreading Elements here?

Why aren't you willing to vote Elements?

@BBT
@Mala
@Bella

Ya'll think Elments is crew? They sure ain't.

Do you think the most recent results were faked? Because otherwise their role seems very similar to Enchant’s but if you can explain that to me, I’d consider it.

~H

What are you even doing? Why are you defending a slot while simultaneously begging me to vote them??.

[Radical Rat]

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Why are you townreading Elements here?

Why aren't you willing to vote Elements?

@BBT
@Mala
@Bella

Ya'll think Elments is crew? They sure ain't.

Do you think the most recent results were faked? Because otherwise their role seems very similar to Enchant’s but if you can explain that to me, I’d consider it.

~H

What are you even doing? Why are you defending a slot while simultaneously begging me to vote them??.

???

I’m not. I’m saying to Eira who keeps insisting we vote Elements to explain how their recent results make them scum because of Enchant’s flip. I thought that was beyond obvious?

Yeah. You already scumread Elements, Enchant can't generate enough results to cover all of Elements' claims, so... obviously scum!Elements is faking here??? The only reason to argue that they aren't is to defend Elements??? Especially as a response to Eira saying Elements isn't Crew???

[Radical Rat]

I have no idea what you’re arguing here? Had Elements not given any results, I would have like a qazillion % be voting them.
~H

Why do you feel the need to refute someone else scumreading Elements by asking how their results could have been faked, when you AGREE with the read?

[Radical Rat]

Like, you just got done telling me how Elements is "CONFIRMED SCUM" then turn around and ask Eiralox why Elements is scum. Do you really not see how weird that is?

[Radical Rat]

If Mala flips green, and there is indeed a bit about Miller, then Gimli and Elements become the top suspects.

And if you're the traitor, scum wins!

See, you should be voting obvious scum here. Out of everyone, through actions and lacks of actions and absolute willingness to cull Loyal Sailors, ELEMENTS IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

So.

If you wanna win this and you're crew you know what to do. If not, stop trying.

Actually I just got you mixed up with Eiralox here. I saw the post in the P-Edit and didn't see the avatar.

That's on me, sorry.

[Radical Rat]

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

[Radical Rat]

Thank you for ignoring the entire rest of the post that already covers that I know it's likely a non-normal Miller, if it exists at all.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

I do want to say though, thank you for sending this. More effort than anyone else has bothered to put into this, and I appreciate that, even though I don't agree with the conclusion.

[Radical Rat]

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

[Radical Rat]

You're not listening to me Harley.

I don't care that she didn't claim the killing part.

I care that she acted as though she had information, then claimed there was no information. THAT'S the contradiction.

[Radical Rat]

Is it that you think those posts happened before she claimed the kill? Because they came after, if that's the problem you're having here. That half of the role was already on the table.

[Radical Rat]

She can't do that as Town because.... Her version of the truth has no benefit to scum, because it is nothing, so why would nothing need to be hidden?

The scum reason for this lie is simple. If she claims her Miller applies to non-alignment roles, and Gimli or Elements flips Town due to the result not matching the claims... She damns herself to elimination next, provided the game doesn't end first. If she claims she just has an alignment Miller, when it's become apparent there are no roles that check alignment... Then it becomes apparent that such a role doesn't exist.

The only option is to claim not to know, to not commit to either outcome, so she can't be held accountable. But she messed up by trying to keep options open later first, rather than leading with not knowing.


The motivation to lie here as Town is.... Just to fuck with us I guess???

[Radical Rat]

My guess re:kills is that they thought the vig was a bigger threat after Passenger flipped. But we won't know for sure until we see the PTs.

[Radical Rat]

I'm not switching to Elements today, I'm wondering about Gimli/Flea/RR

RR, you happy voting with both Elements and Gimli?

It does make me nervous, but at the end of the day I'm more confident about Malakittens.

If I'm wrong (and the game doesn't end), they can be tomorrow's problem.

If I'm right, maybe they bus a doomed partner, maybe they're just the only Town who can read, either way, I'll take what I can get, and we can sort out the rest later.

Risk of game over is very real, but that's true regardless of who we vote.

[Radical Rat]

ELE in Otder for eira and kk to Jill yoy they need me on their side
I just don’t think it’s the right play to kill a cop after a scum cop has died
ESP with what looks like limited roles on towns side
I mean maybe you’ll flip scum with another role
And yoy lied to fabricate that
But the off chance you are town and voting yoy what seems to be melo
Nah

@RR, why do you think traitor!Mala makes this post? If she’s scum and Elements town, then why? Like it doesn’t really add up?

~H

I literally cannot read this post, so it means nothing to me.

[Radical Rat]

ELE in Otder for eira and kk to Jill yoy they need me on their side
I just don’t think it’s the right play to kill a cop after a scum cop has died
ESP with what looks like limited roles on towns side
I mean maybe you’ll flip scum with another role
And yoy lied to fabricate that
But the off chance you are town and voting yoy what seems to be melo
Nah

@RR, why do you think traitor!Mala makes this post? If she’s scum and Elements town, then why? Like it doesn’t really add up?

~H

I literally cannot read this post, so it means nothing to me.

She’s saying she doesn’t want to vote Elements because of Enchant’s flip I believe.

~H

Alright, I think I've parsed it, thank you.

My answer though is simply that I don't know. If she's Town she probably shouldn't be Townreading Elements anyway from her perspective, so? Maybe she thinks Elements is scum, since based on the hastiness of making that post I doubt she's had time to catch up and see Elements voting her? I really don't have a good explanation for either alignment.

[Radical Rat]

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

[Radical Rat]

well this is going to need more time than I feasibly have available, anything interesting happen aside from what appears to be activity tells on me, despite telling you i have like 1-2 hours a day at the most to potentially play at the moment

TL;DR, I caught Malakittens lying, and we argued about it way too much. ISO me and you'll see me explaining/reexplaining several times

[Radical Rat]

Is anyone tr-ing flea?

I am, at present, but my PoE's too small, so I'm probably going to have to kick either Flea or KJ out of the townclub eventually, but I haven't been able to make up my mind which yet.

-47 posts remaining-

[Radical Rat]

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

[Radical Rat]

[Radical Rat]

Flea, what do you mean by Bella being weird about ActionDan? Everything that happened around that seemed pretty reasonable?

[Radical Rat]

When should Bella have claimed in your opinion Flea? I know you said you need to reread the situation, but like.

No one comes forward about the spot for a while for... Reasons > People start talking about a follow the spot strategy > ActionDan, a slot no one really townread before this, claims spotted > Bella, knowing she targeted ActionDan, claims to have done so while still keeping in mind the possibility scum did just directly shoot Dan instead.

Making the possibility of Dan being scum known when people start floating the idea of treating him as an IC makes sense for Town with Bella's role to do. Bella's role makes sense to exist as Town, because while it can potentially be significantly powerful if she hits scum with it, it also weakens NKA and the ability to treat a spot claim as IC. The presence of extra killing roles, and the implied existence of a scum roleblocker by BBT's claim, both also potentially counter the bulletproof aspect, so I don't think it sounds all that unreasonable.

[Radical Rat]

KILLING JOKE

Harley, Joker, where ya'll at?

What ya'll thinking about what Radical Rat is doing, that is, engaging with Flea the Magician while talking past Bellaphant?

I don't understand your point here. I'm asking Flea to elaborate on faer own thoughts. I don't have any issue with Bella's claim or behavior. Why would I ask Bella about Flea's thoughts?

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Eiralox
That's E-1.

Though I do stand by everything I've said re: Malakittens, I also realize that I'm beating an immortal horse here.

I believe Flea to be acting in good faith here. I believe I'm right about Malakittens. So there's not a solve that doesn't include Eiralox.

If it's ELo and I'm wrong... Well, we'll find out soon enough.

[Radical Rat]

I don't want to hear you go on about how my logic is silly and absurd while you don't actually have any. Even now you're trying to spin Flea as setting up a Mala vote when fae... Is explicitly not doing that?

I have my reasons, I've laid them out, but people aren't ready to accept it yet. No one has actually been able to explain why Malakittens lies here if she's not scum, but people are too nervous to vote her out because of the Enchant kill, and there's nothing I can do about that but wait until it becomes more obvious later.

I've tried to ease people into it and talk through concerns, but all it got me was in danger of running out of posts and chainsaw wounds.

[Radical Rat]

Elements, results please

[Radical Rat]

Not surprising, but worth asking anyway.

[Radical Rat]

So here's the problem. We apparently weren't in ELo yesterday, so we DEFINITELY are now.

There is no more room for error.

No one throws votes around until we have everything on the table.

[Radical Rat]

To me, Eira/Malakittens is all but confirmed. It's the last member that gives me pause.

If it is Elements, they basically have to be the roleblocker since they were caught visiting KJ, right?

So my thinking is we do Eiralox and Malakittens first, and if we haven't hit the roleblocker it's probably Elements, and if we have then it's between KJ/Flea/Bella.... And only KJ makes sense to me there.

So that's my proposal. Eiralox > Malakittens > Elements or KJ, depending on if roleblocker flips

[Radical Rat]

Who would you be most comfortable removing from that list?

[Radical Rat]

Do you think that Flea and Eiralox arguing yesterday was just theater then?

I can't really see them as aligned after that, personally. It looked like their frustration with each other was real, and that's a difficult thing to fake if you already know the other person is on your side.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really, at least not yet. But if both Eiralox and Malakittens flip scum as I expect, and there hasn't been a roleblocker found yet... it can't be KJ because they didn't visit anyone N1, and you were caught visiting N1.

At that point the mechanical evidence takes priority.

[Radical Rat]

Joker, unvote right the fuck now.

We're in ELo and cannot afford this

[Radical Rat]

You've (probably?) spewed yourself as Town at least, but please realize we are in ELo, and if the scum team coordinates they can end this game right now.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think Joker pulls something this stupid as scum.

[Radical Rat]

Well, if he is scum then the quickhammer danger doesn't actually exist, so just. As long as no one else jumps in and suddenly votes during ELo, we'll sort it out

[Radical Rat]

Bella, if you'll indulge my curiosity, who did you target last night?

[Radical Rat]

Thought so, just confirming, thank you.

[Radical Rat]

Surely, after being wrong about literally everything all game, you can't be so confident in your read on Elements to risk literally throwing the game by leaving your vote there, right?

[Radical Rat]

Joker, unvote right the fuck now.

We're in ELo and cannot afford this

Bella, if you'll indulge my curiosity, who did you target last night?

Thought so, just confirming, thank you.

Rat's really cautious and polite, they must be Town after all.

~Jokes

They* must be Town (sorry Rats.)

I'm here

The positioning from everyone around flea felt weird yesterday: everyone seemed to vaguely scum read them but made them tomorrowa issue - I don't think I want to vote anywhere but there today.

I don't want to get into a fight over which one goes down first because I think the three are scum. I feel most comfortable taking down Elements first but I think fighting about it is a way to lose the game.

Surely, after being wrong about literally everything all game, you can't be so confident in your read on Elements to risk literally throwing the game by leaving your vote there, right?

Pff you don't give me enough credit, I'm not just confident in my read on Elements. How about out these apples:

VOTE: Flea

Well, I admire your gumption at least. But please, please unvote regardless.

[Radical Rat]

Mala, would you care to address my allegations against you? I realize that until now I have not asked you directly, but even so I would have expected you to have some interest in defending yourself...

[Radical Rat]

WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING RANDOMLY IN ELO

[Radical Rat]

Mala, would you care to address my allegations against you? I realize that until now I have not asked you directly, but even so I would have expected you to have some interest in defending yourself...

I don't care to interact with people who slander my good name

If you have an explanation for why you lied, that would go a long way towards proving that "slander" to be slander.

[Radical Rat]

Anyway, now that everyone has checked in...

I have the spot. I waited to claim because I was hoping scum might get greedy and claim falsely, not unlike what Joker was suggesting.

This is why I suggested Joker might have townspewed, and why I needed to ask for Bella's target.

If KJ knew I were spotted, I imagine Joker would have been less combative toward me. Easy thing to fake perhaps, but worth bearing in mind.

And then Bella's target was to confirm that scum did in fact know who they targeted. I didn't expect that not to be the case, but them targeting Bella for WIFOM was a possibility on my mind.

Now that I have been generously confirmed Town by the scumteam, can we PLEASE not vote for people yet?

[Radical Rat]

And that is the most anti-Town thing you can do here.

If Elements is scum she has to be a PR, and the only scum PR we're sure exists is Roleblocker. Waiting until we either find or don't find the Roleblocker potentially guilties Elements, and that provides the proof your accusations have been lacking so far.

And having a potential guilty in the final three is going to be far easier than anything else.

[Radical Rat]

If you won't respond, fine, but as far as I'm concerned that's you signing up to die.

[Radical Rat]

This isn't about my ego. I know I am fallible, which is why I have been trying to get people to engage with me about my catches and why I haven't voted yet.

If I wanted to turn this into an ego contest, I would have voted Malakittens right out the gate. I am attempting to give everyone a chance to discuss in good faith and reach a consensus decision instead of me just taking control of the game.

But you don't seem to be particularly interested in that, so what would you have me do here?

[Radical Rat]

I'm not offended, shit happens. I'm just frustrated that I'm trying to stay open to the possibility of being wrong and allow a hypothetical Town!you a chance to sway me because the elimination today is a critical point in the game, and you won't take it.

If you're just scum here, then fair enough shutting down is probably your best bet. But if you are Town and think I'm scum, I just wish you'd extend me the same courtesy I'm extending you by trying to engage before making a reckless decision.

[Radical Rat]

I will give you your space, but if you are Town, just. Consider it when you're in a better headspace, please.

[Radical Rat]

In the meantime, there's not much I can really say. All my cards are on the table.

I'll try to check back to answer questions, but in lieu of any groundbreaking developments, my vote will only be between Malakittens or Eiralox today. Preference on Malakittens because I think she's the most likely to wriggle out of it after I'm gone tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

So where I’m at, if RR has the black spot, scum obviously knows it’s elo and occams razor says that probably makes the most sense as a potential frame. I think it’s extremely likely that scum wanted to make anyone disagreeing with RR look bad because if that’s not the case, then no clue what the scumteam would be smoking. Of course I also realize that’s wifom but if you think about it, it definitely looks to me like scum’s agenda was to paint the narrative as one where we should in all likelihood sheep RR, which makes me further convinced that RR’s solve is likely wrong.

I also find it extremely concerning that someone who has hardclaimed crew has the black spot because scum should logical be trying to bs tprs.

@RR, why do you think you over anyone in this playerlist was blackspotted? See if kills were actually not delayed than that would be extremely different but don’t you think it’s odd that if your solve is correct, it wouldn’t be Elements?

~H

I think it was because I'd be the hardest to mislim, or to try to WIFOM me out of my solve.

As long as the roleblocker survives, Town!Elements isn't a threat to scum (and even without the roleblock, I don't think there's anything else Elements could catch at this point). Enough people have expressed suspicion of Elements that she's definitely viable for a mislim.

If I were scum, my pick probably would have been Bella, using the roleblocker to pierce through her redirect. There is a small lingering paranoia that the reason this didn't happen is because Bella's actually scum.... But I don't actually believe that to be the case. If that's how it turns out, Bella probably deserves a Scummy.

Another consideration is who was willing to vote for each person. Scum only need to convince one Townie to win here. I believe the only people scumreading me were Eiralox, and you (as a slot). Malakittens I'm sure could be convinced to given my push on her. If you're all the scumteam... Well, you won't be getting rid of me otherwise.

Everyone else had at least one person scumreading, or at least open to scumreading, them outside of that solve.

Flea had Bella and vice versa, plus I had displayed wavering on my Flea read. Elements had me, and I hadn't yet expressed that I wanted Elements to be the last scum eliminated if they were scum. Eiralox and Malakittens had Elements and me. And you had... I think everyone at varying points throughout the day.

That said, you could very well be right that I'm wrong and was targeted to bait me into pursuing an incorrect solve. It is for that reason that I'm trying to take things slower and engage with everyone again before making a final decision. But when my two strongest scumreads are just... Outright refusing that. I don't really know what else to do

[Radical Rat]

So fae is not considering that scum have taken no action to auto-win this game-day? Thank fae for responding.

MalaKittens, Bellaphant, I'd love an answer as well!

It's not really auto-win if it only protects one of them though.

[Radical Rat]

Yes, I know you won't answer me. Still feel the need to point out misinformation though

[Radical Rat]

I don't suppose you could say one more single thing, being an explanation of why that's such a guarantee?

I understand that Elements can be scum here. I do not understand the certainty you have.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler: Giant test results

Extraversion
Extraversion is marked by pronounced engagement with the external world. Extraverts enjoy being with people, are full of energy, and often experience positive emotions. They tend to be enthusiastic, action-oriented, individuals who are likely to say "Yes!" or "Let's go!" to opportunities for excitement. In groups they like to talk, assert themselves, and draw attention to themselves.

Introverts lack the exuberance, energy, and activity levels of extraverts. They tend to be quiet, low-key, deliberate, and disengaged from the social world. Their lack of social involvement should not be interpreted as shyness or depression; the introvert simply needs less stimulation than an extravert and prefers to be alone. The independence and reserve of the introvert is sometimes mistaken as unfriendliness or arrogance. In reality, an introvert who scores high on the agreeableness dimension will not seek others out but will be quite pleasant when approached.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
EXTRAVERSION 38
..Friendliness 32
..Gregariousness 13
..Assertiveness 47
..Activity Level 29
..Excitement-Seeking 73
..Cheerfulness 58
Your score on Extraversion is average, indicating you are neither a subdued loner nor a jovial chatterbox. You enjoy time with others but also time alone.

Extraversion Facets

Friendliness. Friendly people genuinely like other people and openly demonstrate positive feelings toward others. They make friends quickly and it is easy for them to form close, intimate relationships. Low scorers on Friendliness are not necessarily cold and hostile, but they do not reach out to others and are perceived as distant and reserved. Your level of friendliness is low.
Gregariousness. Gregarious people find the company of others pleasantly stimulating and rewarding. They enjoy the excitement of crowds. Low scorers tend to feel overwhelmed by, and therefore actively avoid, large crowds. They do not necessarily dislike being with people sometimes, but their need for privacy and time to themselves is much greater than for individuals who score high on this scale. Your level of gregariousness is low.
Assertiveness. High scorers Assertiveness like to speak out, take charge, and direct the activities of others. They tend to be leaders in groups. Low scorers tend not to talk much and let others control the activities of groups. Your level of assertiveness is average.
Activity Level. Active individuals lead fast-paced, busy lives. They move about quickly, energetically, and vigorously, and they are involved in many activities. People who score low on this scale follow a slower and more leisurely, relaxed pace. Your activity level is low.
Excitement-Seeking. High scorers on this scale are easily bored without high levels of stimulation. They love bright lights and hustle and bustle. They are likely to take risks and seek thrills. Low scorers are overwhelmed by noise and commotion and are averse to thrill-seeking. Your level of excitement-seeking is high.
Cheerfulness. This scale measures positive mood and feelings, not negative emotions (which are a part of the Neuroticism domain). Persons who score high on this scale typically experience a range of positive feelings, including happiness, enthusiasm, optimism, and joy. Low scorers are not as prone to such energetic, high spirits. Your level of positive emotions is average.

Agreeableness
Agreeableness reflects individual differences in concern with cooperation and social harmony. Agreeable individuals value getting along with others. They are therefore considerate, friendly, generous, helpful, and willing to compromise their interests with others'. Agreeable people also have an optimistic view of human nature. They believe people are basically honest, decent, and trustworthy.

Disagreeable individuals place self-interest above getting along with others. They are generally unconcerned with others' well-being, and therefore are unlikely to extend themselves for other people. Sometimes their skepticism about others' motives causes them to be suspicious, unfriendly, and uncooperative.

Agreeableness is obviously advantageous for attaining and maintaining popularity. Agreeable people are better liked than disagreeable people. On the other hand, agreeableness is not useful in situations that require tough or absolute objective decisions. Disagreeable people can make excellent scientists, critics, or soldiers.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
AGREEABLENESS 92
..Trust 88
..Morality 65
..Altruism 68
..Cooperation 46
..Modesty 88
..Sympathy 99
Your high level of Agreeableness indicates a strong interest in others' needs and well-being. You are pleasant, sympathetic, and cooperative.

Agreeableness Facets

Trust. A person with high trust assumes that most people are fair, honest, and have good intentions. Persons low in trust see others as selfish, devious, and potentially dangerous. Your level of trust is high.
Morality. High scorers on this scale see no need for pretense or manipulation when dealing with others and are therefore candid, frank, and sincere. Low scorers believe that a certain amount of deception in social relationships is necessary. People find it relatively easy to relate to the straightforward high-scorers on this scale. They generally find it more difficult to relate to the unstraightforward low-scorers on this scale. It should be made clear that low scorers are not unprincipled or immoral; they are simply more guarded and less willing to openly reveal the whole truth. Your level of morality is average.
Altruism. Altruistic people find helping other people genuinely rewarding. Consequently, they are generally willing to assist those who are in need. Altruistic people find that doing things for others is a form of self-fulfillment rather than self-sacrifice. Low scorers on this scale do not particularly like helping those in need. Requests for help feel like an imposition rather than an opportunity for self-fulfillment. Your level of altruism is high.
Cooperation. Individuals who score high on this scale dislike confrontations. They are perfectly willing to compromise or to deny their own needs in order to get along with others. Those who score low on this scale are more likely to intimidate others to get their way. Your level of cooperation is average.
Modesty. High scorers on this scale do not like to claim that they are better than other people. In some cases this attitude may derive from low self-confidence or self-esteem. Nonetheless, some people with high self-esteem find immodesty unseemly. Those who are willing to describe themselves as superior tend to be seen as disagreeably arrogant by other people. Your level of modesty is high.
Sympathy. People who score high on this scale are tenderhearted and compassionate. They feel the pain of others vicariously and are easily moved to pity. Low scorers are not affected strongly by human suffering. They pride themselves on making objective judgments based on reason. They are more concerned with truth and impartial justice than with mercy. Your level of tender-mindedness is high.

Conscientiousness
Conscientiousness concerns the way in which we control, regulate, and direct our impulses. Impulses are not inherently bad; occasionally time constraints require a snap decision, and acting on our first impulse can be an effective response. Also, in times of play rather than work, acting spontaneously and impulsively can be fun. Impulsive individuals can be seen by others as colorful, fun-to-be-with, and zany.

Nonetheless, acting on impulse can lead to trouble in a number of ways. Some impulses are antisocial. Uncontrolled antisocial acts not only harm other members of society, but also can result in retribution toward the perpetrator of such impulsive acts. Another problem with impulsive acts is that they often produce immediate rewards but undesirable, long-term consequences. Examples include excessive socializing that leads to being fired from one's job, hurling an insult that causes the breakup of an important relationship, or using pleasure-inducing drugs that eventually destroy one's health.

Impulsive behavior, even when not seriously destructive, diminishes a person's effectiveness in significant ways. Acting impulsively disallows contemplating alternative courses of action, some of which would have been wiser than the impulsive choice. Impulsivity also sidetracks people during projects that require organized sequences of steps or stages. Accomplishments of an impulsive person are therefore small, scattered, and inconsistent.

A hallmark of intelligence, what potentially separates human beings from earlier life forms, is the ability to think about future consequences before acting on an impulse. Intelligent activity involves contemplation of long-range goals, organizing and planning routes to these goals, and persisting toward one's goals in the face of short-lived impulses to the contrary. The idea that intelligence involves impulse control is nicely captured by the term prudence, an alternative label for the Conscientiousness domain. Prudent means both wise and cautious. Persons who score high on the Conscientiousness scale are, in fact, perceived by others as intelligent.

The benefits of high conscientiousness are obvious. Conscientious individuals avoid trouble and achieve high levels of success through purposeful planning and persistence. They are also positively regarded by others as intelligent and reliable. On the negative side, they can be compulsive perfectionists and workaholics. Furthermore, extremely conscientious individuals might be regarded as stuffy and boring. Unconscientious people may be criticized for their unreliability, lack of ambition, and failure to stay within the lines, but they will experience many short-lived pleasures and they will never be called stuffy.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 15
..Self-Efficacy 8
..Orderliness 16
..Dutifulness 51
..Achievement-Striving 48
..Self-Discipline 6
..Cautiousness 29
Your score on Conscientiousness is low, indicating you like to live for the moment and do what feels good now. Your work tends to be careless and disorganized.

Conscientiousness Facets

Self-Efficacy. Self-Efficacy describes confidence in one's ability to accomplish things. High scorers believe they have the intelligence (common sense), drive, and self-control necessary for achieving success. Low scorers do not feel effective, and may have a sense that they are not in control of their lives. Your level of self-efficacy is low.
Orderliness. Persons with high scores on orderliness are well-organized. They like to live according to routines and schedules. They keep lists and make plans. Low scorers tend to be disorganized and scattered. Your level of orderliness is low.
Dutifulness. This scale reflects the strength of a person's sense of duty and obligation. Those who score high on this scale have a strong sense of moral obligation. Low scorers find contracts, rules, and regulations overly confining. They are likely to be seen as unreliable or even irresponsible. Your level of dutifulness is average.
Achievement-Striving. Individuals who score high on this scale strive hard to achieve excellence. Their drive to be recognized as successful keeps them on track toward their lofty goals. They often have a strong sense of direction in life, but extremely high scores may be too single-minded and obsessed with their work. Low scorers are content to get by with a minimal amount of work, and might be seen by others as lazy. Your level of achievement striving is average.
Self-Discipline. Self-discipline-what many people call will-power-refers to the ability to persist at difficult or unpleasant tasks until they are completed. People who possess high self-discipline are able to overcome reluctance to begin tasks and stay on track despite distractions. Those with low self-discipline procrastinate and show poor follow-through, often failing to complete tasks-even tasks they want very much to complete. Your level of self-discipline is low.
Cautiousness. Cautiousness describes the disposition to think through possibilities before acting. High scorers on the Cautiousness scale take their time when making decisions. Low scorers often say or do first thing that comes to mind without deliberating alternatives and the probable consequences of those alternatives. Your level of cautiousness is low.

Neuroticism
Freud originally used the term neurosis to describe a condition marked by mental distress, emotional suffering, and an inability to cope effectively with the normal demands of life. He suggested that everyone shows some signs of neurosis, but that we differ in our degree of suffering and our specific symptoms of distress. Today neuroticism refers to the tendency to experience negative feelings. Those who score high on Neuroticism may experience primarily one specific negative feeling such as anxiety, anger, or depression, but are likely to experience several of these emotions. People high in neuroticism are emotionally reactive. They respond emotionally to events that would not affect most people, and their reactions tend to be more intense than normal. They are more likely to interpret ordinary situations as threatening, and minor frustrations as hopelessly difficult. Their negative emotional reactions tend to persist for unusually long periods of time, which means they are often in a bad mood. These problems in emotional regulation can diminish a neurotic's ability to think clearly, make decisions, and cope effectively with stress.

At the other end of the scale, individuals who score low in neuroticism are less easily upset and are less emotionally reactive. They tend to be calm, emotionally stable, and free from persistent negative feelings. Freedom from negative feelings does not mean that low scorers experience a lot of positive feelings; frequency of positive emotions is a component of the Extraversion domain.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
NEUROTICISM 89
..Anxiety 92
..Anger 34
..Depression 81
..Self-Consciousness 97
..Immoderation 77
..Vulnerability 96
Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional.

Neuroticism Facets

Anxiety. The "fight-or-flight" system of the brain of anxious individuals is too easily and too often engaged. Therefore, people who are high in anxiety often feel like something dangerous is about to happen. They may be afraid of specific situations or be just generally fearful. They feel tense, jittery, and nervous. Persons low in Anxiety are generally calm and fearless. Your level of anxiety is high.
Anger. Persons who score high in Anger feel enraged when things do not go their way. They are sensitive about being treated fairly and feel resentful and bitter when they feel they are being cheated. This scale measures the tendency to feel angry; whether or not the person expresses annoyance and hostility depends on the individual's level on Agreeableness. Low scorers do not get angry often or easily. Your level of anger is average.
Depression. This scale measures the tendency to feel sad, dejected, and discouraged. High scorers lack energy and have difficult initiating activities. Low scorers tend to be free from these depressive feelings. Your level of depression is high.
Self-Consciousness. Self-conscious individuals are sensitive about what others think of them. Their concern about rejection and ridicule cause them to feel shy and uncomfortable around others. They are easily embarrassed and often feel ashamed. Their fears that others will criticize or make fun of them are exaggerated and unrealistic, but their awkwardness and discomfort may make these fears a self-fulfilling prophecy. Low scorers, in contrast, do not suffer from the mistaken impression that everyone is watching and judging them. They do not feel nervous in social situations. Your level of self-consciousness is high.
Immoderation. Immoderate individuals feel strong cravings and urges that they have have difficulty resisting. They tend to be oriented toward short-term pleasures and rewards rather than long- term consequences. Low scorers do not experience strong, irresistible cravings and consequently do not find themselves tempted to overindulge. Your level of immoderation is high.
Vulnerability. High scorers on Vulnerability experience panic, confusion, and helplessness when under pressure or stress. Low scorers feel more poised, confident, and clear-thinking when stressed. Your level of vulnerability is high.

Openness to Experience
Openness to Experience describes a dimension of cognitive style that distinguishes imaginative, creative people from down-to-earth, conventional people. Open people are intellectually curious, appreciative of art, and sensitive to beauty. They tend to be, compared to closed people, more aware of their feelings. They tend to think and act in individualistic and nonconforming ways. Intellectuals typically score high on Openness to Experience; consequently, this factor has also been called Culture or Intellect. Nonetheless, Intellect is probably best regarded as one aspect of openness to experience. Scores on Openness to Experience are only modestly related to years of education and scores on standard intelligent tests.

Another characteristic of the open cognitive style is a facility for thinking in symbols and abstractions far removed from concrete experience. Depending on the individual's specific intellectual abilities, this symbolic cognition may take the form of mathematical, logical, or geometric thinking, artistic and metaphorical use of language, music composition or performance, or one of the many visual or performing arts. People with low scores on openness to experience tend to have narrow, common interests. They prefer the plain, straightforward, and obvious over the complex, ambiguous, and subtle. They may regard the arts and sciences with suspicion, regarding these endeavors as abstruse or of no practical use. Closed people prefer familiarity over novelty; they are conservative and resistant to change.

Openness is often presented as healthier or more mature by psychologists, who are often themselves open to experience. However, open and closed styles of thinking are useful in different environments. The intellectual style of the open person may serve a professor well, but research has shown that closed thinking is related to superior job performance in police work, sales, and a number of service occupations.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
OPENNESS 60
..Imagination 11
..Artistic Interests 48
..Emotionality 58
..Adventurousness 20
..Intellect 66
..Liberalism 99
Your score on Openness to Experience is average, indicating you enjoy tradition but are willing to try new things. Your thinking is neither simple nor complex. To others you appear to be a well-educated person but not an intellectual.

Openness Facets

Imagination. To imaginative individuals, the real world is often too plain and ordinary. High scorers on this scale use fantasy as a way of creating a richer, more interesting world. Low scorers are on this scale are more oriented to facts than fantasy. Your level of imagination is low.
Artistic Interests. High scorers on this scale love beauty, both in art and in nature. They become easily involved and absorbed in artistic and natural events. They are not necessarily artistically trained nor talented, although many will be. The defining features of this scale are interest in, and appreciation of natural and artificial beauty. Low scorers lack aesthetic sensitivity and interest in the arts. Your level of artistic interests is average.
Emotionality. Persons high on Emotionality have good access to and awareness of their own feelings. Low scorers are less aware of their feelings and tend not to express their emotions openly. Your level of emotionality is average.
Adventurousness. High scorers on adventurousness are eager to try new activities, travel to foreign lands, and experience different things. They find familiarity and routine boring, and will take a new route home just because it is different. Low scorers tend to feel uncomfortable with change and prefer familiar routines. Your level of adventurousness is low.
Intellect. Intellect and artistic interests are the two most important, central aspects of openness to experience. High scorers on Intellect love to play with ideas. They are open-minded to new and unusual ideas, and like to debate intellectual issues. They enjoy riddles, puzzles, and brain teasers. Low scorers on Intellect prefer dealing with either people or things rather than ideas. They regard intellectual exercises as a waste of time. Intellect should not be equated with intelligence. Intellect is an intellectual style, not an intellectual ability, although high scorers on Intellect score slightly higher than low-Intellect individuals on standardized intelligence tests. Your level of intellect is average.
Liberalism. Psychological liberalism refers to a readiness to challenge authority, convention, and traditional values. In its most extreme form, psychological liberalism can even represent outright hostility toward rules, sympathy for law-breakers, and love of ambiguity, chaos, and disorder. Psychological conservatives prefer the security and stability brought by conformity to tradition. Psychological liberalism and conservatism are not identical to political affiliation, but certainly incline individuals toward certain political parties. Your level of liberalism is high.

[Radical Rat]

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

[Radical Rat]

I also want everyone to be cognizant that I already fished for a hammer on Flea and Elements and nothing happened despite multiple players being online at the same time.

Unfortunately, if you're scum that doesn't prove anything, and even if you're Town, your votes weren't there by the time the prime suspects checked in.

It does mean that scumteam isn't exactly Me/Elements/Bella though

[Radical Rat]

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

[Radical Rat]

@Malakittens/Bellaphant

Could both of you claim your role name please?

[Radical Rat]

That really wasn't okay. Regardless of anyone's alignment here, don't cross personal boundaries like that.

[Radical Rat]

Flea literally asked you not to quote the Bible at faer because it was personally triggering and you antagonistically did it again.

This is a game. It isn't worth being assholes to each other over.

[Radical Rat]

Malakittens, I would still like to get your role name please

[Radical Rat]

Nancy, I do understand the nature of the results on you. Titus tracking you nowhere is a VERY soft inno, sure. You being vanilla has zero bearing on alignment though. It would only matter if you had claimed something else.

But even accepting your track as a SINGLE soft inno, the way you're essentially using it as a bludgeon any time anyone brings up suspicion... That's what I take issue with.

[Radical Rat]

Just ISO me backwards for Mala. I'm tired of repeating myself over and over and over and over when the reality is you probably are just scum. You're still free to ask for clarification if something confuses you, but this question is one I've been repeatedly answering since the very first post I brought up this theory. The answer's there if you care to look.

And then we're just not getting anywhere with the inno thing, and frankly at this point it probably doesn't matter. If it's Elements, that'll be obvious and it won't be an issue. If it's you, this whole discussion is pointless. If it's neither, then we need to be looking elsewhere anyway.

[Radical Rat]

I'm probably ready to start voting once I hear from Malakittens

[Radical Rat]

I'll go find the quotes for you then. I'm neurodivergent in many ways too, I understand it's easy to lose track, but it's still frustrating to repeat myself incessantly. And I wish I could be more patient, but I simply have no way to tell whether you genuinely do just need another explanation, or if you're scum pretending not to understand.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler:

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

[Radical Rat]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to imply you're lying about your dyslexia or anything else, and I didn't even mean to say I don't trust you specifically about it. That's why I agreed to go dig up the quotes for you instead of doubling down on not dealing with it anymore. I'm sorry I hurt you that way.

My point was just that you, as scum, have a vested interest in frustrating me, running up my post count, clogging the thread, etc. Asking me the same question a dozen times is conducive to those goals.

This is also something that can be explained by your neurological conditions, and if you say that's what it is, I will trust you to have the basic grasp on ethics necessary to not lie about health issues to win a game on the internet.

I was trying to explain why I reacted the way I did before you clarified/reminded me of why you sometimes need that, and I did so poorly.

[Radical Rat]

Spoiler:

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

Yes because we are in fact double soft inno’d and I am absolutely telling the truth about that. We have a theory that scum pretty doesn’t target you if you’re 100% right or wrong. Our theory is you’re probably wrong on Elements but right only part of your solve is right because if you’re totally offbase, why would scum bother with you but if you’re totally right, scum wouldn’t likely want to confirm, so I think you may possibly be partially right. Joker of course still has some paranoia that you could still be scum and no nk but I don’t think so. What part? We’re still trying to figure that out. But you really need to explain to me why Mala vigbusses Enchant because that’s kind of a biggie.

~Harley

My problem with the "double soft inno" thing is that neither being vanilla nor not committing a kill one night make you inno. They do decrease the raw statistical likelihood of you being scum, and I'm fine with that being brought up to defend yourself, but when every single time anyone says anything about you you feel the need to remind everyone you have a "double soft inno," it just comes off as annoying and LAMISTy. Frankly, it reminds me a lot of your behavior around MMR's guilty on you in Cosmos.

As I covered yesterday, the best way to make any of this make sense is if Mala's a traitor and did not know Enchant was scum. It explains the miller claim, and the kill, and traitor is a natural thing to slot into Enchant's redacted information. It is also possible that it was just a galaxy brain play, and if it was... well, it's working.

I don't really have the attention span to be digging through and organizing ISOs in a game this length, so I'll just be summarizing for the cases, but if you have doubts, I encourage you to look through them yourself.

Eiralox: Suspicious since D1. Didn't like him floating the idea of a no-lim, has been consistently pushing Town for what I see as disingenuous reasoning, especially egregious with StD, has been trying to eliminate Elements ever since they claimed, treating it as a confirmed fact with the only evidence being the possibility of deception rather than any actual inconsistencies, and a hard chainsaw on me after I caught Malakittens lying. Also hard defended Enchant, who I will admit also thought was Town, but on top of everything else, not a great look. Refusal to engage today, and voting immediately, isn't helping my opinion.

Malakittens: I covered this better yesterday, but. A standard alignment Miller is implausible given the lack of any alignment investigatives in the game. If she's a Miller variant that interacts with the investigatives we DO have, Elements' result is impossible, as she should have been treated as Vanilla. She claims her role PM does not expand on what "Miller" means, which contradicts both basic accessibility design, and all of the flipped role PMs so far. And even allowing for the possibility of her having a role PM that doesn't explain anything, she presented it as though she did have information she thought scum shouldn't know, then later claimed no information existed at all: a clear contradiction.

Elements: Known to be a visiting role, and the claim of Vanilla Parity Cop isn't possible to prove 100%. Claims could have been partially based on Enchant's actual results combined with in-thread claims, but there were no inconsistencies until Mala/Gimli. Survived longer than expected of a claimed PR, and without being blocked until today. If the last surviving scum is the Roleblocker, she is overwhelmingly likely to be it.

KJ: Has been a driving force behind every mislim in the game, weird fixation on the "double soft inno" thing, 180 read flip on me to chainsaw for Malakittens, extremely thick ATE, reckless ELo voting, and while a lot of that is a personality thing... PoE gets real thin here and you make the most sense to be aligned with Eira/Mala.

The less amount of information that scum has the better. Can we just move on?

Unless you are telling me that I’m scum and enchant bussed me by fishing for my role.

So, to be 100% clear, all it says is that "you are a miller" with no elaboration on what that means?

Yes

I'll let the asshole thing slide since it was apparently influenced by outside forces, and I think that's mostly reasonable.

But these two posts should not exist in the same universe, EVEN IF we allow the possibility of a Role PM that doesn't explain the role.

The first one implies that information exists, otherwise there'd be nothing to hide from scum, and no reason to ask to move on instead. The answer would be "I already claimed everything" or something along those lines. The latter one claims that there was no such information.

And this isn't an instance of hiding a lack of power as bait either, because "I don't know" is completely neutral and doesn't influence what scum can or can't do with the role.

If she'd said she was only claiming miller to avoid the kill, and said so once the results discrepancy happened, I'd even buy that. But she didn't, and it's too late now that she's reaffirmed the claim multiple times.

Right here. This is the active lying. Explain how it isn't.

It is 100% possible that Elements lied.

What it isn't is confirmed. The only result that doesn't add up is today's, and that's better explained by Malakittens lying, because, again...

1. Miller doesn't make sense in this setup
2. If there is a Miller, it has to interact with non-alignment roles since there are no alignment roles
3. No way in hell Malakittens has a Role PM that doesn't explain her role
4. Even if she does have a Role PM that doesn't explain her role, she lied about it in-thread

Here's the crux of my point today.

Not pictured is that Malakittens has claimed responsibility for shooting Enchant, and my specific accusation is Traitor.

-46 posts remaining-

Well, I know I'm not a traitor, so that team being a possibility doesn't particularly bother me because that's where I'm pointing if Malakittens somehow flips green anyway, and if that is the team, scum probably is just a normal team of four.

But if I'm right then while Gimli/Elements is still possible, the evidence is tenuous at best, and Eiralox is pretty heavily implicated, which makes Elements make less sense.

I understand the fear of me being traitor, but I just can't reconcile Malakittens here, and don't understand how anyone else is able to. Just... Please. Don't let caught scum get away. We've been eliminating Town all game, and while I won't pretend I didn't contribute to HPE and especially Gamma.... This is different. We have hard evidence, and it leads here. Please don't ignore it for a maybe.

Yeah, 'course it makes sense. It's all very possible. But it is, at this point, nothing more than speculation.

What I'm missing is the evidence other than "I said so"

viewtopic.php?t=90193&user_select%5B%5D=36844

Why your Mala argument is bad.

~H

Cool. Thing there though is that Flavia didn't pretend to have information she didn't, and also checked and got clarification. Also her role PM did actually describe the role. Slightly ambiguously worded, but it did at least make an attempt to say what the role did, not just drop a name with no elaboration.

Malakittens claimed there was information worth hiding from Mafia, then said there wasn't any actually, and that's independent of whether there actually is or isn't or should be or shouldn't be. She lied about it, regardless of what's actually in the PM.

Your argument totally hinges on whether or not traitors exist, so it’s tinfoily at best. I’m not voting the first player to kill actual scum here. Traitors don’t usually gaf about getting towncred. It’s tantamount to gamethrowing for a traitor - if they do even exist in this game - to try to shoot groupscum for towncred because traitors just don’t normally do that unless god only knows what mind bending drugs an actual traitor would have to be on to do that. Just why?

~H

She wasn't trying to shoot groupscum in my theory; she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. I said it was possible she just didn't care if she missed, but that is only a possibility, and I never once said I thought it was outright intentional.

You're right that it hinges on a traitor existing. But Malakittens has been caught lying, and her lying solves the problem with Elements' result. There's a reason I was hesitant when I first thought of the idea, but it really does just make sense once you accept the possibility.

In any case, Mala, as traitor, very likely does not know her teammates. So missing is always a possibility. And if she coasts to victory off of it, it won't even have been a miss.

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Stop being dense. Town! Enchant is limbait and you know it.

Sometimes he can be, yes. With this playerlist, and with the strongest voices townreading him? Nah.

Who tf other than Eira was tr Enchant? I had a nullread on him. Town!Enchant in most games is like Eira said, very easy miselimbait and unless you’re going to some how argue SvS with Elements, she wouldn’t know their results. Basically I think Elements’ results on both Gimli and Mala add up with her one shot vig role and Gimli probably a goon. In what game ever has a traitor even had a killing role.

Oh and I just realized why Mala can’t possibly be traitor: If Mala was in fact a traitor, why in the actual fuck would she ever claim miller because don’t traitors show up as town to ACs in general?

~H

Infernal Affairs had a traitor vig.

But also no, traitors do not automatically appear Town, though they sometimes can, and just in case the Mafia team doesn't know her identity (can go either way, not sure here how much she knows or how much information was on the main Mafia's side), Miller is a role that almost never gets investigated and almost never gets shot. It's a perfect cover for a Traitor.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

The obvious problem is WE DON’T KNOW That TRAITORS EVEN EXIST In THIS SETUP, so not voting anyone based on a half-baked theory with no supporting evidence to back that up and why would traitor!Mala shoot Enchant of all people? Why Enchant? Triator would logically want to shoot obvtown or in our case, someone who’s death will make them look good upon flip, which would be us but not a slot no one maybe other than Eira was tr.

~H

And yet Joker's been floating Traitor ideas since D1, before we actually had compelling evidence to suggest it.

Also, while I concede the situation is different here due to the apparent lack of consent, you have shown that Malakittens is willing to shoot teammates for towncred. Maybe she wasn't sure and just didn't care either way. If she hits scum, it's towncred, if she doesn't she can either not claim or just go "Enchant's hard to read" and no one would question it.

But what is blatantly apparent is that she LIED. Unless there's a damn good explanation for that, then I value that more than the kill. Especially with the backing of Elements' result.

Like, I wouldn't have let an Enchant lim go through. At least not quietly.

I was wrong, obviously, but he was never really in any danger. A couple people floated him as scum, but nothing really materialized. Gimli's been hard pushing him for a while, do you think that was bussing? Do you think Malakittens would have thought it was bussing before shooting?

Nah. I already answered your 'evidence.'

Mala NEVER EVER kills Enchant as a traitor. End of story, stop wasting our time.

Enchant kill is completely irrelevant if she doesn't know the main scumteam.

Yes, my argument is exactly that she's traitor.

I have said this multiple times.

It's the only world where this makes sense.

...

This is definitely a bit tinfoily but...

What if Mala's the traitor?

Miller is a pretty solid claim for a traitor to make, and if she's a traitor who doesn't know the main scumteam, Enchant could have just been an accident.

It helps with the PR balance issue, and explains Elements' result... The informed bit could be the existence of a traitor... It all lines up.

Idk, someone tell me I'm crazy here

Why on earth would hypothetical Mala traitor shoot Enchant like ever? Mala’s locktown, no wonder this game’s such a mess.

Because she wouldn't have known Enchant was scum. Maybe she thought Gimli was scum and so thought the kill was safe, and saw that a mislim wasn't happening.

Okay so really nothing new then? I was hoping you had some more thoughts on this but here’s the thing, how do you ignore that she vigged a scum in afawk, a singleball type setup. I just don’t understand why scum!Mala would do that.

Why does Town!Mala lie about her role?

Whether you personally think they are likely or not, Mala being a traitor who doesn't know the scumteam, or it being a 9000 IQ galaxy brain bus are both things that are feasible for scum to do. I think the traitor option is significantly more likely, but both are possible.

The lying though? I haven't been able to think of ANY explanation for that. No one else, including Mala herself, the one person who would definitely know, has even really tried, just defaulting to "But she shot Enchant!"

And it's exhausting how it feels like I'm the only one putting in work here.

[Radical Rat]

I... Think you might have misread me.

I'm saying I DON'T think you would do that

[Radical Rat]

I'm sorry, I should have made my phrasing more clear.

I do NOT think you are lying about any of your neurological conditions.

I do NOT think you are lying about their application here.

I DO think you are a better person than to do either of the above.

[Radical Rat]

Admiral? Why would that be on a pirate ship?

[Radical Rat]

Under most circumstances, navies and pirates don't get along, with privateers being something of a grey area, but even then you wouldn't expect to see an Admiral on board the ship...

The only thing that I can wrangle from a Town perspective is that it could maybe be a former admiral who quit and joined a pirate vessel? They probably wouldn't be trusted which could potentially in theory explain the Miller aspect.... but not any of the mechanical issues I have with that, nor Mala lying about it.

From a scum perspective, I could see it maybe being an undercover situation, where the admiral would pretend to join the crew then stir up a mutiny to avoid wasting naval resources hunting them down if the pirates would just tear themselves apart.... But then bring the one inciting the mutiny doesn't really lend itself to being a traitor. Probably depends on specific flavoring...

Though also... nothing in the setup explicitly states that third parties DON'T exist...

[Radical Rat]

@Mod

Is it possible for a third party to exist?

[Radical Rat]

Right.

If Mala's a third party, then things get complicated. Scum wouldn't actually have quickhammer power, so we aren't actually able to draw any real conclusions from Eira's or Joker's earlier votes.

[Radical Rat]

Or, as with Elements 'Ship's Commisioner' , which would be a quartermaster or bosun(Bellaphant's claim), the role is fake.

I do really like your possibility of a retired Admiral, Rat. But admiral claim can still be totally fake, to avoid cc's?

As always, my vote remains unchanged. I have to study Mala's ISO for this tbh. Which I might at a later date.

It can definitely just be bullshit, yeah. But in that case I would have expected something that... makes sense?

I think this has to be flipped first regardless.

If she made it up, she's scum. If it's real, I have my mechanical issues and the fact that she lied about it still preventing me from a townread, and scum traitor doesn't quite make as much sense, but third party starts looking plausible...

If she does flip red, regardless of the veracity of the claim, your vote today makes it a 1v1 between you and Elements tomorrow.

And then last scum is still between Nancy and Flea, which I still really don't feel confident enough on either...

[Radical Rat]

I understand, but I would like to talk later when you're ready to, Nancy.

[Radical Rat]

For now, last thing I want to do is a sort of informal vote.

I think basically everyone agrees that, for today, it has to be between Eiralox, Malakittens, or Elements.

Can I get everyone to state their preference from that group?

Mine is Malakittens, because of all my aforementioned issues, and my new paranoia of her being a third party mucking up everything else.

[Radical Rat]

There won't be any quotes for those, because obviously Enchant never claimed his results, being scum and all.

What I believe Eiralox is saying is that those are the only two results Elements gave that weren't on people who'd already claimed.

[Radical Rat]

Okay Eira, I'll bite. But I won't vote for Elements today. I don't see a world in which Scum!Elements visits Scum!KJ. It would have to be some kind of weird augmentative role. Either a doctor, or something more exotic. It's hypothetically possible... but not very plausible.

Malakittens is present in both of our solves, and flipping her is likely to be very informative. Why will you not vote there while we figure out Elements when the PoE narrows?

[Radical Rat]

I hate that I actually kind of believe you here.

If this discussion had happened yesterday, I'd probably be okay flipping Elements. Maybe not since I thought we were in potential ELo then too...

But now that we're in definite ELo... I don't know that I can justify it. And I'm hesitant of course because I still can't trust you either.

But damn it, you make sense.

[Radical Rat]

I wish you would reconsider moving your vote. Give us another day, another spot to feed the PoE.

I know you won't, but I wish you would.

[Radical Rat]

Pirates frequently ahem.... Acquire.... vessels that were officially sanctioned. And if we were privateers, it still seems strange that an Admiral would be on board a privateer ship and not a naval flagship.

I wouldn't base an entire case on a flavor claim, but on top of everything else? It just doesn't work for me.

[Radical Rat]

Okay Eira, I'll bite. But I won't vote for Elements today. I don't see a world in which Scum!Elements visits Scum!KJ. It would have to be some kind of weird augmentative role. Either a doctor, or something more exotic. It's hypothetically possible... but not very plausible.

Malakittens is present in both of our solves, and flipping her is likely to be very informative. Why will you not vote there while we figure out Elements when the PoE narrows?

But why would scum!Mala shoot Enchant? I don’t understand how you can just ignore that.

Could be traitor, as I've said.
After the flavor claim my thinking has also evolved to include Mala being third party rather than groupscum.
And it could be a galaxy brain play, which is probably the least likely option, but if it is the case... It's working.

[Radical Rat]

IF Malakittens is third party, then it becomes POSSIBLE for Elements and Eiralox to both be Town.

But then if THAT'S the case, the only scumteam that remains is KJ/Flea. Which seems.... well, not very likely given recent events.

So all roads inevitably lead to Eira/Elements, save for the very remote possibility that I'm wrong about Bella.

My insistence on Malakittens, though I thought it to be illuminating, is ultimately just kicking the can down the road.

So. It is with a split mind and a heavy heart that I must...

VOTE: Elements

If she flips roleblocker, KJ is innocent and Flea is the last scum. If they flip a beneficial scum role, KJ is guilty. Anything else... and Eiralox gets a firm handshake for swaying me from my correct solve.

[Radical Rat]

Well, the thing is once he got over his grandstanding huffy silence... He makes sense. I saw a glimmer of it with regard to Gimli too. He was wrong about Gimli, and many other things, but I believe him when he says he sees these things, because if you go and you look, the progression makes sense.

I think Eiralox's earlier behavior was incredibly anti-Town. I think he's been disingenuous a lot of the time throughout the game.

I thought much of the same about Gimli before him. I came around on Gimli because I could see the genuine effort and desire to solve underneath the surface. Took me a while to get there, but I was right.

And right now, I'm getting that same feeling from Eira.

Is it possible he's just emulating this to appeal to me? Sure. But at the end of the day... he doesn't need to appeal to me. If he's scum, he just needs one Townie to bite, it doesn't have to be me.

And unfortunately if it isn't him... It does have to be you.

[Radical Rat]

Wait hold up.

UNVOTE:

[Radical Rat]

You're counterclaiming Bella? Now?

[Radical Rat]

Can you explain what it is your version of boatswain/bosun does?

[Radical Rat]

Bella's role and claim are the definition of convenient

How? Had she not said anything at all, what would have been different?

[Radical Rat]

Okay, so you're NOT actually a PR...

I don't have enough sleep in the tank for this

[Radical Rat]

Bella's claim was just a scum play
Doing things scum wouldn't do is what scum tries to do no?

Sure, but scum still have goals. The things they do have reasons. What was Bella's? She wasn't in any serious danger. She didn't significantly affect the course of the day. At best, she bought some towncred, but that's because everything surrounding the claim makes sense for Town to do.

If we start reading Townie things as scummy because scum wants to look Townie, then we open up a whole mess and solving becomes impossible. Sometimes Townie things ARE done by scum, but the difference is in motivation. And I can't find any scum motivation in Bella's actions.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE: Elements

[Radical Rat]

@rat, this doesn't make sense right?

What doesn't make sense to me is that Elements isn't trying to save herself. Not really anyway.

She asked me to unvote, I explained why I can't, and now she's just in a hurry to die rather than push back further.

If today has shown anything I'd think it's that it's possible to change my mind. That my scumread alone is not a death sentence.

It makes sense for scum to want to just end it here. Not for Town, with the game on the line.

[Radical Rat]

Sure does

[Radical Rat]

Why is Eira bussing here?

[Radical Rat]

That doesn't match what you said before.

[Radical Rat]

I am a Miller, but I also have one shot role.
I have one shot delayed vig.

I’m the asshole who shot enchant.

I was in between him or gimli, but in the end I picked enchant because I had something bugging me in the way he was engaging with me.

[Radical Rat]

More like Sighralox, am I right lads?

[Radical Rat]

Why is Eira bussing here?

[Radical Rat]

And if Elements flips scum doctor, as Eira theorizes?

[Radical Rat]

At this point, Nancy's the only one to not check in, right?

That means we're right, at least about Elements. If Elements is Town, Eiralox is incredibly likely to be scum, leaving two scum unaccounted for. If Nancy is scum, her partner would have been here by now, and there is nothing to be gained by not voting at this point. And if Nancy is not scum, both of the others have been here already, and a hammer would have occurred.

There is an amount of wiggle room here if Malakittens is indeed a third party, which prevents coordination with the last scum... But in that case I'd think Mala would be okay moving forward regardless. If she's a survivor-type, it doesn't matter what happens here. Town flip ends the game and she's still in it. Scum flip gives her leverage to try to avoid elimination tomorrow.

[Radical Rat]

I don't think it's 100% Nancy, but that'll get cleared up pretty quick with Elements' flip.

[Radical Rat]

I never claimed a PR. In fact, I believe I'm the last person to have never claimed anything. It's just Loyal Sailor, which is probably obvious at this point, but I don't believe I've ever said it

[Radical Rat]

Aaaaaand that's everyone checked in, Elements is still alive, therefore Elements is scum.

[Radical Rat]

Aaaaaand that's everyone checked in, Elements is still alive, therefore Elements is scum.

[Radical Rat]

VOTE

ELEMENTS

NANCY DREW 39

MALAKITTENS


I'm done here.

If you’re town here, you will be regretting this post-game.

@Flea so long as my questions are reasonable, fair and valid, I have every right to continue to ask them. I’m doing nothing wrong even if outside events have caused me to be more emotional than usual. I will acknowledge that I’m extremely upset, shaking and in tears now for reasons unrelated to this game

but I repeat nobody has the right to ask me to gamethrow and I strongly believe any attempt to keep me from asking reasonable, valid and fair questions is EXACTLY that.

If you're this upset, you should take some time to step back. You obviously don't need me to tell you that Mafia can be incredibly emotionally draining. Prioritize your health.

[Radical Rat]

I will now be accepting apologies from everyone who ever doubted me on Malakittens.

[Radical Rat]

In all seriousness though, you guys earned the win. Flea pocketed me early on, and if it weren't for PoE necessitating it, I would have never given up that read. And Elements strung us along much longer than we should have let her.

Even decently townread Enchant, though he would have been among the first to go once the PoE narrowed

[Radical Rat]

And yes, massive shout-out to Aisa and Furtive, top-notch modding work

[Radical Rat]

@mod, any chance I can be a temp medium and get guidance from RR?

Probably not, pretty much a non-serious post, mods, ignore (unless of course, there’s actually a snowball’s chance in hell of that even happening).

This was a very funny post to me, because I also jokingly asked to be allowed to come back and yell at people

[Radical Rat]

I mean, I wouldn't even really call it a mistake when it basically won you the game

[Radical Rat]

That isn't the version of the role that made it into the game

[Radical Rat]

The mod error was that I gave Enchant a result for

Gimli instead of for ActionDan

ActionDan instead of Gimli on N2.

The timing of the announcement in thread was super unfortunate because everyone was discussing who was black spotted and why ActionDan didn't claim immediately. I imagine a lot of people suspected that the Black Spot was the error.

Shoutout to T-Bone for being super helpful and telling me what to do really quickly when that happened.

Why did you announce the error at all? Acknowledging it to Enchant, and post-game, absolutely, but I think publicly announcing it immediately did more harm than good

[Radical Rat]

Fair enough. It wasn't a huge issue, aside from causing confusion with the spot, but that all got sorted out anyway

[Radical Rat]

There were definitely times I thought you could have been pocketing me, especially D1 you laid it on a bit thick, and if StD had actually been scum I may have called you on it.

But if you WERE Town, I was too afraid to lose the only person agreeing with me, so ended up wrongly trusting you anyway.