Open 556: Fire and Ice (Over)

[Tr1ckster]

Hey Moonlight! Guess who else is with us! Our old buddy randomidget!

[Tr1ckster]

*blushes a little*

I feel special. Both people checking in have mentioned me.

[Tr1ckster]

Blushing... red... fire mafia... lynch it

Fire's orange. The really hot stuff is blue.

Fallacious argument.

Lynch it.

[Tr1ckster]

Mmm, lots of familiar faces.

I want to vote Not_Mafia already and we haven't even started. D:

You know what they say! Great minds think alike.

God I hope Moonlight is scum again.

Why? I, for one, want to be on the same team as him again.

[Tr1ckster]

But seriously, I don't like how NM asked "fire or ice", scum is scum. I

could

see him doing it on purpose to get a discussion going and I assume that votes won't count yet, sooo... yeah.

Like in games with an SK where a big scumtell is worrying mostly about the SK?

[Tr1ckster]

I wouldn't be surprised if Moonlight is scum again

I would.

Very similar to that, yeah.

Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it's a start.

It's definitely a start for not even being in D1 yet. I think I know where the first Bandwagon is going.

The last time I played this setup we caught scum doing something similar to what NM started with, so I wouldn't be surprised at all if he is scum.

[Tr1ckster]

Wow. Much stretch.

I like trains when they're headed for scum.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

And hi midget and tn!

[Tr1ckster]

Following a wagon so soon?

vote: finglove

Why not?

[Tr1ckster]

Yay, I finally get to play with mastin.

I approve of this wagon and I don't understand why Jasmine is wary of it, some explanation would be cool.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

This.

Also I forgot to say I'm very much happy to play with mastin. Well... as long as she's town.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh. N_M's at L-3, BTW. Just so y'all know and we don't derphammer him... >.<

[Tr1ckster]

Now I'm wondering if your comment on mastin was distancing. Why wouldn't you be happy if she's scum?

It was.

I always distance from the vets. Didn't you play in Mewbie 1477?

If she's scum then I think we're in trouble. I want to work with her, not against her, silly. Don't you? Why would you want to work against mastin? O_o

[Tr1ckster]

Now I'm wondering if your comment on mastin was distancing. Why wouldn't you be happy if she's scum?

You didn't think my Nacho vote in 1477 was distancing?

[Tr1ckster]

I'm worried that Moonlight is scum because he played such a strong game first time round.

We just played a game with him as scum. You'll know if and when he's scum.

That said... why are you bringing up doubt of Moonlight alone? There are four people on the N_M wagon... two of them you've played with before, why Moonlight?

[Tr1ckster]

It was an innocuous RVS joke post, I don't understand how you see this as alignment indicative

Could be freudian slip.

Or it could be that you're joking about what's to come this game. Either way, prove us wrong. Don't tell us why you're town. Show us why. Scumhunt the stuffing out of the mafia.. and both mafia teams, not one specifically.

[Tr1ckster]

If it was a joke, just treat your wagon as the punchline.

Oooh Burn

Burn = Fire

Scum.

[Tr1ckster]

In that game I was part of an informed minority. Is the situation the same here?

No. But it's relatively close.

In both situations you are required to not reveal that you know something that everyone else doesn't.

Can you keep a secret from me?

[Tr1ckster]

I'd like to believe so, but this isn't the game where I'll find that out.

No, I don't think it will. You've already made a minor townslip.. well.. a minor Moonlight townslip.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh, I didn't realize a wagon would appear on my RVS vote. Not to sure about the logic for it, but it's an RVS wagon, so whatever.

Why would you discount it like that?

Why would you keep your vote on a wagon you don't agree with?

[Tr1ckster]

FoS tman

[Tr1ckster]

Cool.

Initial reads:

Scum:

tman2 - why question a wagon and mark it as worthless and keep your vote on it?
Not_Mafia - why worry about who's which mafia?

Null:

finglove - please explain rvs vote.
YurikoJasmine - questions wagon. why?

Town:

Moonlight - seems townie, asks good questions. typical moonlight game start confidence.
randomidget - notes good things

[Tr1ckster]

You've yet to actually explain why my question was alignment indicative

Fire mafia doesn't care about finding fire mafia, it only wants to find ice mafia and vise versa.

It doesn't matter to town which mafia a player is a part of.. at least not right now. Scum is scum is scum is food for the noose.

[Tr1ckster]

@Tricks: I agree with your scumreads and I can't believe that people are calling this a random voting stage when there's a 4-vote wagon.

Agreed. I like town's footing this game. This is a nice place to start, actually. We can get some good discussion going on this.

@Not_Mafia: Your question could have easily been phrased "Are you scum?". It wasn't, which shows that you're looking at scum as two teams of scum instead of just scum. The way I see it, either you're interested in one team more than the other, or you're a Townie who wanted to give that impression to get us out of RVS ASAP.

The fact that he doesn't seem to know why it would be a scumtell makes me strongly doubt it's the latter.

[Tr1ckster]

Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum. The distinction of which scum is which is far important to town.

See how I can construct an argument saying the opposite. You can wifom and twist what I said 6 ways of Sunday but it will still be a random RVS joke post.

No, because that doesn't say you're town, it just says you might not be scum. And if you were fire mafia, of course you would ask about fire mafia as well as ice mafia because it would be a major scum tell. You actually

can't

twist it any way you want.

I don't know whether to vote Moonlight for badly twisting innocuous RVS posts in to scum tells, Finglove for wagoning with a naked vote or Trickster for sheeping.

Eenie meenie miny moonlight

VOTE: Moonlight

Why is wagoning bad?

I didn't sheep, I posted my own reasons.

I don't like your OMGUS vote.

[Tr1ckster]

Let's say I am scum. Why would I phrase my question that way, if Trickster is scum then I'd either know which scum he is, if he was my partner, or if he wasn't, which scum team he would have to be on if he was scum. The distinction of which scum is which is far important to town.

See how I can construct an argument saying the opposite. You can wifom and twist what I said 6 ways of Sunday but it will still be a random RVS joke post.

No, because that doesn't say you're town, it just says you might not be scum. And if you were fire mafia, of course you would ask about fire mafia as well as ice mafia because it would be a major scum tell

if you didn't

. You actually

can't

twist it any way you want.

I don't know whether to vote Moonlight for badly twisting innocuous RVS posts in to scum tells, Finglove for wagoning with a naked vote or Trickster for sheeping.

Eenie meenie miny moonlight

VOTE: Moonlight

Why is wagoning bad?

I didn't sheep, I posted my own reasons.

I don't like your OMGUS vote.

EBWOP

[Tr1ckster]

And I don't have a problem with stretch arguments when there isn't a better argument out there.

[Tr1ckster]

If you're going to use that standard then there's no such thing as a towny post or a townread, just "might not be scum" posts and "might not be scum reads".

No. A town read (to me) is someone who is town because of pro-town play. A "not scum" read to me is someone who is not scum due to lack of scumminess.

Either way, your reasoning doesn't defend yourself or support the fact that you're not scum well enough for me to not consider you lynch-worthy.

I said him wagoning with a naked vote was bad.

Ok. Ask him to explain his vote then. And vote for him instead of Moonlight, who has done nothing to be worthy of your vote.

[Tr1ckster]

Why are you so concerned with Moonlight being townread?

Why are you upset that I'm defending my strongest town read from thrown together OMGUS arguments?

[Tr1ckster]

Why are you so concerned with Moonlight being townread?

Give me a good reason he shouldn't be townread.

[Tr1ckster]

You know what my reasons for voting him are

Spoiler:

I don't know whether to vote Moonlight for badly twisting innocuous RVS posts in to scum tells

Eenie meenie miny moonlight

A mixture of "eenie meenie miny moe", an OMGUS vote, and a claim about an argument that you have yet to disprove?

Yeah... not buying it.

You still don't have a good reason to vote for him. The only one that has potential is the claim that his argument is a stretch, and if anyone's argument here is a stretch, it's yours. I've seen several scum playing this setup on another sight caught making the slip you made or a similar slip. Your argument doesn't back you up enough or disprove his argument in any way. You have yet to even prove it's a stretch.

Because of this, I've marked you down as having a random reason, an knee-jerk reaction reason, and a disproven reason respectively, none of which say he's scum, and all of which seem to say you're scum.

[Tr1ckster]

Sorry about inactivity. There's some kinks in getting the hydra set up. Mastin is V/LA until Monday, so I'll start and we'll collect everything in a quoted post by the hydra once we get it sorted out. These are Pasch thoughts alone, not discussed with Mastin.

YurikoJasmine's vote looks like the first legit one. There really doesn't seem to be any justification for voting N_M, and the people doing so know it.

I disagree.

Trickster, why are you afraid of derphammering if you're so sure that N_M is scum to run him close to a lynch on page two?

Because I'd still like to get as much out of today as possible. I don't like early lynches.

Because he doesn't agree with it and doesn't think it warrants a lynch, duh.

How good would you say you are at playing town D1?

I feel like this is a stretch. A big stretch. The question was essentially a comment on the theme. And unless you expected someone to actually answer the question directly, it couldn't possibly gain scum any knowledge. There is no scum-benefiting way for that question to resolve. It's just banter and I don't see it as alignment indicative at all.

Have you played this setup before?

Trickster and Moonlight definitely look town, but I think they're barking up the wrong tree. I think Tman's reaction is much more suspect than N_M's question, and the Moonlight vote is just dumb.

Maybe so.

I wouldn't give Midget at townread. Of four posts, only one is content, and it's a weak meta comment.

Finglove also needs to give reasons for his votes and comment on how things are unfolding. Pasch does not like naked votes.

VOTE: Tman

Agreed.

PEdit:

@Baezu

Finally. Someone with solid reasoning.

[Tr1ckster]

Tricks is a playing a very similar game to the game he played when he was town. So yeah.

I disagree. He seems way more confident and town-leader in this game than he was in the game I modded. I don't think learning can be applied that quickly so I'm tending to lean scum on him. Which game are you referring to, RM?

I was outed cop in your game. My decisions held more weight. Of course I'd be less confident.

He's talking about this game:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=38643

Where I played as VT.

[Tr1ckster]

This actually helps prove my point. What happened to your RQS? If you're town you wouldn't mind garnering that attention but as scum, you prob want to maintain a lower profile

I only use that RQS for Newbie games. It doesn't apply as much or as well here.

And you don't think I've already garnered plenty of attention? I would say I'm the center at the moment.

[Tr1ckster]

That was a comment on how sure you seem to be on so little information.

How good would you say you are at playing town D1?

I'm good at calling out bad wagons.

I'll take these two responses as "very bad."

Save this kind of play for D2. Or later in D1.

I have, as scum. While you seem to think that the question demonstrated the mindset that N_M was coming from, I don't think it was anything more than a page one comment without meaning. But in what weird universe would anyone answer such a question? The only way that it helps scum to ask that is if someone answers. And if it doesn't really help scum to ask it, then I don't see the scum-motivation, and I don't see the scum-mindset that you do. I don't think one would have to be scum to essentially ask the common opening question "are you scum", but tailor it to the specific theme of the game.

Don't be so high and mighty. It's disrespectful and all it's going to do is piss off your allies and make them not want to work with you.

I disagree with you. How often have you played this setup?

[Tr1ckster]

Interesting posts by Pasch and Baezu. I agree with the former on everything except for barking up the wrong tree; that's not how I see it. I agree that it's a reachy case, I just don't see that as something that can't be used. I approve of the tman vote though.

Agree with this.

As for Baezu, I think Tricks gets a bit more confident when he believes I'm Town. We've noticed we work off each other pretty well.

Yes. It's quite nice to think you're town again...

But what does this mean?

he believes I'm Town.

[Tr1ckster]

@Ascended

Sorry. No intent anywhere to be offensive or "high and mighty." I know what I'm doing. (I think) If you think I'm town, just let me play my game.

[Tr1ckster]

It means what it says. Past experience shows me you get more confident when you believe I'm Town.

Do you think it means something else, or are you wondering how I'm reading you?

I'm wondering why you added the word "believes"... You are town, are you not?

[Tr1ckster]

Let's see. If I had said instead "when I'm Town", it would have been either an effort to sell I'm Town when I'm not, or honesty. Now that I said "when you believe I'm Town", it either implies that it's something you can't know or... nope, that's about it.

Ah. Sorry, yes. That makes sense.

I think it's time for a bastardization of a Nick Fury quote:

"Until such time as Moonlight is proven scum (in my mind, at least), I will act as if he is town aligned."

PEdit:

*sigh*

Ah well...

I guess I'll go after the naked voter.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: finglove

[Tr1ckster]

@Boro

Read my first town game with Moonlight. I buddied hard.

Also...
Why did your reason for voting for me change between your two posts? I don't like that.

[Tr1ckster]

Time for me to share my early reads. In the order they have posted:

NM puzzles me. He cast a random vote on mastin and ignored his wagon for a while, until he didn't. His vote on me is a lot like Boro's on Tricks, scumreading someone for trying too hard to get things going.

Zeph hasn't caught up, so no read.

Tricks gives me the same feeling he gave me in our first game. I have seen him play scum, but never early, only after replacing in. So far this seems very much like his Town play.

Boro seems to consider reachy cases a scumtell and that's something I don't agree with, but that tells me nothing about his alignment.

tman's posts rub me the wrong way. His vote on NM seemed to be random, so he didn't really make anything of the pregame posts. After noticing the wagon, he showed apathy, which I can't say I appreciate.

midget is... strange. I've only played one game with him and it was our first, so his playstyle might have developed, but he seems much bolder and confident than I remember. Not sure what that means, but it's noteworthy.

Jasmine doesn't like wagons and I want to know why before I decide what to make of her.

Pasch's posts appeal to me, and even though I disagree with his viewpoint on reachy cases I can understand it. His defense of NM makes me townread him, because I don't see any scum motivation for him to disapprove of the wagon... unless those two are scum together. =P

Baezu seems to rely on meta and to dislike buddying, which I don't know what to make of.

4 Heads is going to be a headache (ba dum tsh!). I hate when the heads disagree like that.

To sum up: townread on Tricks and Pasch, scumread on tman, null on everyone else but I'm paying NM, midget and Jasmine extra attention.

I'd agree with most of this.

I'd like to add that my eye is on Boro and Fin, the former for... a rather.. interesting argument against me, and the latter for a naked vote. Both are null at the moment, however.

However, I would like to say I think midget hasn't really changed much at all, but you're better at noticing this sort of thing than I.

I'm not willing to give Pasch a town read yet, but that might simply be because he's too straightforward for me to read, I think. I'll trust you on this one until I believe otherwise.

4 Heads is going to be a headache just reading their posts.. >.< Although I like seeing their thought processes. Makes me more comfortable with them and I'll give them a town read for now.

[Tr1ckster]

I have to say...

I feel like Baezu isn't thinking for herself.. she's relying too much on past play. I don't like it.

Actually, I don't like the amount of dependence on past play present in the game at the moment. From pretty much all directions. It's a new game. People can change drastically from game to game. A lot of these comments about meta have been made off of a single game. Do you know how inaccurate your results are likely to be if you base your conclusions off of a sample size of one? It's as if the moderators picked a game at random from a type of setup and based their analysis of that setup off of that single game. If they picked the one game with a perfect town win they might decide that setup was horribly imbalanced and decide to never run it again. That setup could be perfectly balanced, there were just horrible scum or excellent town in that one specific game.

In statistics an analysis is not admittable unless you have at least 10. 10. 1 is far from enough. Please stop basing your reads off of a single game.

[Tr1ckster]

You'd think that trying to get things going would be a good thing.

Actually, that's not what he was trying to do:

It was an innocuous RVS joke post,

I think it's pretty interesting, actually, how he's developed a tunnel of me...

Because while his first vote was for mastin and then he moved it to Moonlight, the player he's been mainly addressing and the player he made joke posts about being scum (here,here, and here) are all about me. Why hasn't he voted for me yet?

[Tr1ckster]

I think he's addressed you the most because you've been addressing him more than Moonlight has. Also, those joke votes where in RVS.

Two things:

Please don't answer for someone I question (but feel free to say you agree with the question being asked) because it offers the person I'm asking the question to an easy way out. Among other things.

The other thing is that he never actually voted for me. Three times he set me up for a joke vote or an RVS vote... but he never actually voted for me. He got to the point of calling me scum at one point and still didn't vote for me.

[Tr1ckster]

it didn't change, I added something. by trying to misrep that you aren't doing anything to convince me you aren't scum.

I'm not misrepping at all.

Spoiler:

I'm with Bez here, Tricky is trying far too hard. The 'town shouldn't worry about whether they are going after fire/ice' is such an easy reason to go after someone, especially when it probably didn't mean anything. It's going after daft things, and making them bigger than they are so you look like you are contributing. What Moony did in the last game.

VOTE: Trick

Wait, why does this apply to Tricks and not me? I'm the one who pointed out first, so I don't understand why you're not after me if you think it's scummy. o_O

because he's trying to buddy you. started at 14 and has continued.

also, early read list. always a bad sign.

Your reason changed. You should have simply restated your reasons for it in the first place.

Either way, your reasoning is... well... not.

I guess I can say this now because the pressure wagon on NM diminished...

It was RVS. A lot of the drill on NM was purposeful in order to get discussion going. Of course we weren't ready for an NM lynch, but by tunneling him we got a lot of discussion moving and so on and so forth.

I think what a lot of people don't understand is that at this point in D1, stretch arguments and pressure wagons are actually

good

for town, because they result in discussion over people's alignment and debates that significance of certain actions that helps town get on the same page. I think too many people take Mafia as a straight-forward game - it's not. There is a lot of room for lying in mafia as town, especially on D1. For the same reason people said NM's scummy question might have been town-motivated (it wasn't, he said so himself) what I and Moonlight did was town-motivated.

Something I think people need to take a better look at - is what is happening right now going to help town in the long run? Also stop depending so strongly on common tells. Not every townie is going to play the same game and not every goon is going to play the same game. One of the things about mafia is that there is no "correct" way to play mafia- there are dozens of different styles and techniques and so on and so forth. Too many people are using general tells across the board - what people need to learn why the current tells are tells. Why? And then apply that "why" to the person they're trying to read. Does the reasoning match up? Or is the person doing something for different reasons than those that would make the scum tell a scum tell.

Anyways.. sorry about that.

TL; DR

Mafia is not a straightforward game, stop applying tells to everyone and figure out the reasoning behind the tells and see if it lines up with the reasons that the player you're trying to read is committing the tell.

/end rant

[Tr1ckster]

*sigh*

*sigh*

>.<

Oops.

[Tr1ckster]

Sorry

@Mod

. Never heard of "don't use spoiler tags" before.. so I didn't think to look.. >.<

That was a short game.

[Tr1ckster]

Scumgame

Some formatting stuff got ruined in a forum change unfortunately, so VCs are pretty unreadable

UNVOTE: Moonlight
VOTE: Finglove

I've exhausted my vote on Moonlight

Why aren't you voting one of your other two scumreads from earlier?

[Tr1ckster]

Finglove was one of those

Oops. My mistake. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

We would make the best scum team, would we not, @Moon?

I think if we were scum together town would be pretty much done.

[Tr1ckster]

Just as a note, I finding it harder to find scumreads in this game so far.

This is pinging hard.

I'm willing to let the trick thing rest for now but IGMEOY still

What trick thing? O_o

[Tr1ckster]

I'm willing to get off of your case for now :p

What case? There was never a case against me, just a couple baseless suspicions and RVS votes. O_o

[Tr1ckster]

I honestly don't see N_M as mafia because of the early interaction atm. Fin has not done anything I think is scummy. Tman would be the scummiest of the three that have been talked most about but I think scum is still hiding atm. Ima try to look for scum in the people who have not been at the forefront bc that's where I think they are atm

*raises both eyebrows*

[Tr1ckster]

I have mixed feelings about going after lurkers. The nature of the setup and the plurality lynch rule give scum even more reason to not want to stand out, but at the same time it's something scum might use and call it "scumhunting". >_>

Baezu's train of thought is something that crossed my mind though (scum not being in the active players at the moment), so I want to see what she does about it.

Exactly.

I'll have my eye on Baezu's posts... and lack of posts.

[Tr1ckster]

I think what NM is trying to ask is "can we get a full color scheme for your conversations?"

[Tr1ckster]

The color scheme is not in your signature.

What happens when all four of you agree?

[Tr1ckster]

you are misrepping. my reason didn't change.

my reason is: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

Moonlight asked why I was focussing on you and not him.

The next post explained it.

my reason remains: you were focussing on something rubbish as a reason to go after someone.

And that's bad during RVS because...?

[Tr1ckster]

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

What? How do I get towncred if I'm scum for doing it? O_o

sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?

No.

And Trickster that doesn't change the fact that you misrepped his case

Fact? Facts are true.

[Tr1ckster]

There's a difference between jokey/rubbish reasons in RVS and latching on to something rubbish to go 'omg I got us out of RVS towncred please' with.

Your argument here is I'm scum for doing it because I look like town for doing it.

What?

[Tr1ckster]

sorry, was that an apology for accusing me of changing my reason?

Sorry. I'm a self-centered and hot-headed. I don't apologize for my mistakes.

what does your reply even mean here?

It means I'm asking you why it's bad to vote for someone for "rubbish" reasons during RVS.

[Tr1ckster]

so hang on Moonlight, you are saying that you think I'm scum because of a football avatar?

Did he say he thought you were scum?

[Tr1ckster]

Question for Tricks: does Boro's play this game remind you of the same play it reminds me? It's almost like history repeating itself in a way.

I believe it does. We are thinking of the same player, are we not?

I just want to say I think it's very interesting his play changed from last game to this...

Or did it really change? I don't know.

I certainly hope this one doesn't end in him getting reported, though. Maybe we should make him read the game? You know, the whole thing about knowing history so you don't repeat it?

I think NM is.. Interesting. Very interesting. For defending him so blatantly.

[Tr1ckster]

I have early slight town leanings on Yuriko and Pasch/Ascended, everyone else is pretty much null, including tman, I found his "lol RVS wagon" thing to be more lazy than scummy.

Hold up.

Your town to scum read ration is scaring me.

And how are you reading one of the players who has posted barely anything at all as town when there are players who have contributed a good bit more and you have them as null? O_o

[Tr1ckster]

Yup, we are.

As for whether it changed, I think so. In the previous game he got aggressive with legit reasoning. Here he is making a mountain out of a molehill, the irony being that he seems to believe that about you while considering it a scumtell.

I believe Boro is smarter than actually believing that a vote can only mean a desire to lynch someone, and I'm toying with the idea that he saw you as a threat or mislynch fodder.

I don't know, but I don't see how it can be town motivated. Assuming he's scum, how do you read NM?

@NM

Disagreement =/= scumtell

[Tr1ckster]

THIS IS

NOT

TOWN TR1CKSTER

I don't care what anyone says

VOTE: Tr1ckster

I'm parking my vote here for the rest of the day

Have you even

seen

town!Trickster? And by town!Trickster, I mean vanilla town!Trickster.

[Tr1ckster]

Yes! I read your game that you referenced me to where you and moon were VTs. You started that game with an RQS as well. And say what you will, PEOPLE DONT CHANGE. At least not so quickly. I've lived on this planet for 36 years and there's one thing I've learned people just don't change that quickly.

So you're voting me because I didn't start the game off with RQS? O_o

FTR (and I believe I already stated this..) I only start newbie games off with that specific RQS.

Besides, why would I make it so easy to scum read me? O_o

Yes! I read your game that you referenced me to where you and moon were VTs. You started that game with an RQS as well. And say what you will, PEOPLE DONT CHANGE. At least not so quickly. I've lived on this planet for 36 years and there's one thing I've learned people just don't change that quickly.

I'm living proof that you're wrong.

There are things that don't change, sure. Certain things do and they can make a world of difference.

That game you're referring to, I felt like a completely different player by the end of it when comparing myself to how I was when I started it. I was witnessing a change I couldn't even understand the reason behind, so don't tell me that people don't change in Mafia. >_>

Agreed. Moonlight and I have both grown a lot since the beginning of that first game. (and apparently randomidget has as well.)

[Tr1ckster]

Yes! I read your game that you referenced me to where you and moon were VTs. You started that game with an RQS as well. And say what you will, PEOPLE DONT CHANGE. At least not so quickly. I've lived on this planet for 36 years and there's one thing I've learned people just don't change that quickly.

Think about this for a moment.

If I started every game as town with RQS, why on earth would I choose not to start it with RQS as scum? Would that not make it incredibly easy to scumread me?

Also: The RQS in your game was a gambit. I had no intention of starting with RQS until I learned I was cop.

Finally. You can't base a meta read off of a single game. You can't base it off of two games. You can MAYBE base it off of ten games, but even then you have to read the game you're currently in according to the circumstances.

[Tr1ckster]

All that said, I think Baezu is probs town and just paranoid to pieces. What do you say, Moon?

[Tr1ckster]

Just as a note, I finding it harder to find scumreads in this game so far.

This is pinging hard.

Why should it? This is a game where even scum want to scumhunt.

Why should it not? Yes, you want to scumhunt... but town will do a lot of that for you. You just have to analyze things at the end of the day with your partner. It's far easier for you.

As I mentioned before, I townread trick, but I'd like Baezu to summarize his argument against Trick for me. Or anyone else who scumreads Trick.

Her argument against me is that I didn't start the game off with RVS and I haven't revealed using a gambit yet.

I'm satisfied with 4 heads' response, but I still have some hesitation about them. I think at this point, I'd like to do an ISO on everyone.

Just do it and then tell us your results afterwards. Don't tell everyone how much you scumhunt, show us by actually scumhunting.

[Tr1ckster]

Sure, let's fucking lynch anyone we don't like instead of lynching who we believe is more likely to flip scum.

First Boro sees "scumminess" in things he doesn't like, now Zeph. I'm starting to doubt my read on Boro as a result, because I didn't want to think of the possibility that a Townie would want to lynch someone just out of dislike, but I guess I have to consider it unless both Boro and Zeph are scum.

What do I even do in this situation... I'm totally against policy lynches but this is starting to get insane.

I'll sleep on it, but not before begging any Townie that reads this to carefully reconsider what separates Town and scum. Forget tells, forget what you think you know, break the game down to its very core and understand. I don't give a shit if you read this as me using AtE to earn towncred and whatnot, that's fine. Just don't throw the game, please.

Agreed.

Lynching someone because you don't like them is anti-town. It goes against your WINCON. And not only that, it makes Mafia a popularity contest.

I can't even rant about this. There aren't words. Don't vote for someone because you don't like them. Period.

[Tr1ckster]

No policy lynches.

If worst comes to worst we'll see if we can get a modkill on players who lynch people they dislike.

Still. No policy lynches. Then you become just like him.

[Tr1ckster]

So wrong.

Policy lynch = killing someone who is acting not necessarily scummy, but still anti-town. Someone who is anti-town is playing against town's wincon, and is trying to lynch townies just because "they don't like them". They can't be mod-killed, since it isn't against the rules.

I think a policy lynch is very viable on townies who insist on lynching townies. It doesn't make me "just like him" at all. It teaches him that if he continues to do such, he will be policy lynched in any game he tries that bullshit.

You can't get a modkill for playing against your WINCON like that? That's interesting. Why can players get modkilled for claiming scum and not get modkilled for lynching against their WINCON and admit to doing so? That doesn't make sense to me.

That said, he won't get very far with his vote against you. I say we worry about lynching scum for now, but if he actually gains momentum on you and you're obvtown we'll do something about it.

I really don't want to have to deal with this, though. This is completely ridiculous on so many levels.

@Zeph. Unvote the heads now or give me a good reason to put your vote there - and not because you don't like Hydras or something about their play.

I'm going to bed now, and when I wake up I want your vote to be somewhere else or I want to see a legitimate argument on them.

[Tr1ckster]

And Heads, get your vote off Zephyr or give me good reasons he's scum.

[Tr1ckster]

Thanks, Zeph.

@Heads

I read them. Are you on a lynch the people with no content then?

Because there are several far scummier people out there than Zeph.

[Tr1ckster]

It's the way in which he's doing nothing. My gut is telling me "SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM SCUM" and I'm listening to it.

And it's not doing that for you on Boro or tman? What about NM?

And what do your other heads think about this?

Finally - your gut always tells you the player voting for you is scum. It's a thing that happens.

[Tr1ckster]

Then vote for tman.

We'll deal with Zeph in the morning. You're upset because he voted for you for illegitimate reasons, I think you need to unvote him, take a break from the game, discuss with the other for heads, and get back into it.

Trust me. If you do this, people will take your vote more seriously. Like a vote that's been thought through and makes sense. Right now it looks like an OMGUS vote. And I'm not dealing with OMGUS votes.

So if you're town and you're legitimately scumhunting and you want to be taken seriously, unvote him for now and you can vote for him later after you've spoken with the other heads and you can come back with real reasons other than the one that he voted for you. Ok?

[Tr1ckster]

*sigh*

@Heads

There are people doing less than Zeph.

And he has made a few comments. url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p5866409]This one[/url] is actually relatively useful.

There are other people who have done a good bit less than Zeph.

Now give me another reason to vote for him, or lose the OMGUS attitude. It doesn't help town.

[Tr1ckster]

@Tricks:

Do you have a townread on Zeph? I don't understand why you're not letting him get into the spotlight more.

I don't have a townread on him, but I don't have a scum read on him either. I'm unimpressed with the argument made against him. It's anti-town and it feels like the Heads are jumping to conclusions before they do any scum hunting. >.<

@Tricks and NM: Why have you parked your vote on someone who is V/LA? -_- Jasmine too, but she's inactive, so she might have an excuse.

Oops.

UNVOTE: Finglove
VOTE: randomidget

Because I'm not impressed with his play so far and I'd like to see interactions and not just reads.

[Tr1ckster]

Interesting reads, Baezu. That's good. I think I agree with a good bit of that.

Wanna vote for one of them?

[Tr1ckster]

That 180 turn from Baezu and Trick is supporting her now. Scum team?

I called her town beforehand as well.

Besides - encourage good behavior, discourage the bad stuff. Might sound stupid, but it works. If you like the way someone plays, encourage it. Am I wrong? If you sit around discouraging everyone, you're never going to get change out of them. Her reasons for voting me before were silly. SHe reread and saw some good stuff that i missed. Why should I continue to dis her?

@Moonlight

Leading you on, as always. You did make it obvious? Oops.

FTR.. I think for myself.. I didn't lead you on at all.. I voted him for my own reasons.

[Tr1ckster]

no, changing your reads isn't, and that isn't what I was saying. so don't put words in my mouth please.

but changing your reads so dramatically certainly is.

I would agree with you here.

I would say a dramatic change like the one Baezu made is probs town.

____

Oh boy.. you are too much like Hanzo. I don't like it. I don't like it at all.

[Tr1ckster]

I'll VOTE: Trickster then. Bored of waiting for the mod to come in

Cool. What happened to losing the scum read on me?

I also don't like his buddying on you, I see him trying to self impose a town bloc

Uh huh.

so much nonsense here it's ridiculous. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

@Moonlight..

I think I have the answer.

____

Everyone unvote.

UNVOTE:

Now go back and reexamine your reads. Then find out who you disagree with. Don't yell at the person you disagree with, ask them questions about the places you disagree. Calmly, civilly, talk through the differences.

THen, when things have been more resolved, you can vote again.

[Tr1ckster]

Tricky, you realise you aren't conftown in this game, yeah?

*sigh*

It was worth a try.

Alright, go back to bickering then. I can't stop you. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

I think this is where I am at the moment

Safe townreads: The Ascended, Not_Mafia, Zeph,

leaning town: Moonlight, random, tman (quite like the last two but could do with contributing more)

idk?: idk (really don't like either of their big posts, but nothing to suggest they are scum I don't think)

didn't know they were playing: Yuriko, Finglove

scummy: Baezu, 4 heads, Tricky

The Hanzo is strong with this one.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

[Tr1ckster]

What does that mean?

It means his arguments are scummy as all get out, he's not making sense, he's not working with town, he's working against it, he's not considering possibilities, he's tunneling super hard, he's set on his beliefs and he won't change them, he's reactive, he's not understanding what's going on, he's defensive and aggressive and too emotional. He's being a loose cannon and he's scum.

Or, if you want a better description, read the character "Hanzo_5" from Mewbie 1477

[Tr1ckster]

give me examples of each of those please Tricky.

I rest my case.

and by calling me a loose cannon I think you betray the fact you know I am town.

You can be a loose cannon to your scum team as well. Hanzo was.

[Tr1ckster]

you mean you can't give examples?

I mean it would be a massive waste of time.

I don't like Zeph's OMGUS behavior.

FoS Zeph

Moon, I don't think he did. I've seen scum do the same thing time and time again.

I really don't like the "too townie" argument against me and Moon.

[Tr1ckster]

@Moon

I don't think that was a townslip... I've done that as scum and I've seen it done several times as well.

And Hanzo looked at one point... but there were times when there were easier lynches than myself and he ignored them. Boro might just be misreading the thread and assuming there are a lot of people willing to vote for me when there aren't.

@Zeph

No, Baezu's vote was .. well.. she made an effort to back it up with things. Yours doesn't seem to be really backed up at all..

@NM

>.< Did you really just ask me to substantiate a case on Boro? O_o I believe I already stated several times why I think he's scum.

@Moon

Alright.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Zephyrus

And this is slightly off-topic.. but I think objectivity exists, just not in humanity. I agree with you on everything else, though.

[Tr1ckster]

For the sake of argument, assume I'm Town when you read this post, even if you're scumreading me. I want you to see what I see.

In 141, Zeph examines the possibility of a team of me and Tricks. (If he is scum, his lack of voting there suggests distancing, and I know I'm Town.)

In 246, he defends Tricks without providing reasoning behind his read and with his next post he goes after a hydra... for being a hydra.

In 284, he wonders if Baezu is scum with Tricks, but with his next post he townreads Tricks AGAIN without reasoning.

The way I see it, Zeph is scum and his flip will say a lot about Tricks.

Oh fun.

You make me want to unvote Zeph because I'm scared he's scum... >.< You're as bad as Cue, you know that? I swear I'm so done with you people who can make it bad for me to vote for a scummy player...

Semi off topic; I'd love nothing more for postgame lulz than for Trickster and Moonlight to be on opposite scumteams who are both trying to captalise on their dynamic to get townread

Now that's a game I want to see.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh fun.

You make me want to unvote Zeph because I'm scared he's scum... >.< You're as bad as Cue, you know that? I swear I'm so done with you people who can make it bad for me to vote for a scummy player...

I didn't mean to use that face there, BTW. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

You've got nothing to worry about if you're Town, Tricks. I said I'd consider the possibility much more seriously, I won't quicklynch you or anything.

@NM: I'm counting 5 votes by 4 Heads, Baezu, me, Tricks and you. That's L-2.

Ah good. I figured Mastin'd try to set you straight anyways...

Unless she's scum.. O_O

I'm kind of scared of the wall that's most likely coming tomorrow...

[Tr1ckster]

She can't even spoiler tag it :/

Exactly..

*shivers*

Oh well.. It's not like I haven't built a small wall or two myself ... I guess we'll just brace ourselves?

I wonder what time we can expect it...

[Tr1ckster]

Im getting a Hanzo vibe from 4 heads as well. Sorry I havent been the most active, had exams so have been quite busy.
Im keeping my vote where it is, but am going to re evaluate my other reads.
@tricks, if you think Boro is doing a Hanzo, would you be looking at a lurker as the partner?

Where do you see Hanzo in the Four Heads?

I don't know. It's possible. His partner could really be anyone, I'm not limiting it to a lurker at this moment.

[Tr1ckster]

I see Hanzo in four heads in that his defence against all votes is basically 'you are just butthurt'

Yes, but they're thinking through their decisions, they seem to emulate pro-town behavior... Hanzo did not. Yes, they reacted badly to a vote on them, but that happens in mafia.

[Tr1ckster]

L-1 ^^

A vote for Zeph = a scum claim.

Zeph claim please.

[Tr1ckster]

Hello Mastin!

Sleep well!

[Tr1ckster]

Do we need to start a philosophical discussion as to what a head, a.k.a. a person is? Do we need to discuss human chimeras, conjoined twins and dissociative personality disorder? I hope not.

They consider themselves 4 heads. Treating them as anything less is disrespectful in my opinion. >_<

Disrespectful and irrelevant.

[Tr1ckster]

Can I just say that, regardless of any ethics involving a Hydra, I think 4 heads is scum.
The_Ascended, is that mastin or pasch in the last post?

Why?

And why does it matter?

[Tr1ckster]

@mastin

Cool. So you have a bunch of... feelings? Err.. can you explain them please? Is there a reason for these feelings?

Also, spoilers aren't allowed. >.< Did you read the thread? Are you caught up? Because we already discussed this, I believe.

Finally, please don't tell me "I don't know, they're just gut reads.." because my first assumption will be that you're scum covering a scum buddy and a town player, one as a white knight to protect the other one. And the reason you're using feelings is because you can't debate them or work with people's feelings. So please don't tell me you don't know, they're just feelings.

[Tr1ckster]

The posts you picked to quote, mastin, are interesting. The posts you chose not to quote is also interesting. The fact that you disagree with your partner is also intriguing. I wonder if he's going to get a lecture on bussing his scum buddy? How strong would you say your reads are at this point, mastin?

[Tr1ckster]

Trickster they're just page 1 reads, you seem... jumpy

Jumpy would describe it well, I think. WHy is she posting if she's only read page 1? The last time I saw someone do that they were scum trying to set up a lynch on town.

[Tr1ckster]

here's an idea Tricky. Why don't you wait until they are finished before butting in?

Why? If she felt ready to post her reads in the thread, why should I wait to post my responses to them?

Page by page reads show greater willingness to be transparent and can assist town in reminding them of stuff they may have forgotten, which is especcially helpful in a game as fast paced as this.

It also brings up no longer relevant topics and kindles old flames that need not be kindled.

That said, I'll give her a chance to respond to my questions.

[Tr1ckster]

There's no such thing as a relaxed, soothing scumhunt. I think mastin of all people would know that.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: The_Ascended

Please explain why you think N_M's game is town.

PEdit:

I would disagree. But even if you think that, there is stuff that's so outdated it's not helpful to discuss it anymore.

[Tr1ckster]

Of course you can have a relaxed tone/demeanour and scumhunt.

Your unnecessarily defensive interaction with Mastin's early game reads just reels of bad omgus to me

You can have a relaxed demeanor and scumhunt, but the scumhunt itself is never relaxed.

[Tr1ckster]

This whole game is based on feelings. None of us know who is scum and who is town, Mastin.

Also don't like tricksters sudden jump on ascended

She knows. She's played mafia for quite some time now.

Which is one reason my vote is on her.

[Tr1ckster]

Respect gained for well used Nick Fury quote.

Define the difference between scum scumhunting and town scumhunting?

[Tr1ckster]

Hm.

This may be unfair of me, but this is where I'm at.

Had mastin been any other player, I would townread them as misguided/confused town or VI. But mastin is a highly respected as an excellent mafia player, so I read her as scum right now.

[Tr1ckster]

Well, you think I'm excellent too and I disagree, so. =P

I've never played with her and I don't trust hearsay, I want to experience her play first-hand.

PEdit; Damn, the scumread's fading.

Touche.

I think there's a lot to be said for hearsay. It can say a lot about the source.. and the source can say a lot about it.

That said, I've read her "Mastin Academy" or most of it, anyways...

And her play right now makes me think scum.

You enjoy her having a scum read on you? *raises eyebrow* We think very differently, my friend. Very differently indeed.

[Tr1ckster]

The worst thing that can happen is that I get lynched, and I get to tell the rest of you who is scum on my wagon.

I'd love the opportunity.

Eh. But living to the end of the game is so much more fun. Also, who am I going to bounce my reads off of?

[Tr1ckster]

Kinda want to vote Trickster, but again, catching up, will need to talk to Pasch, and whatnot.

LOL I see what you mean, Moon. That was the most exciting thing I've read all day...

Hm. I wonder if everyone will read us as scum because of the way we play together?

[Tr1ckster]

Mastin I understand your confusion.

I don't have feelings, so I always sound cold and dispassionate.

The vote's interesting... as is the misrep of my 359. Although it might be a joke misrep, so I don't know.

I'm flattered you think I'm pro-town. You make me think of another player on a site I came from. He knew how to make you look scummy for voting for the scummiest player, and you seem to be trying to make me look like scum for being the towniest player (which I'm not.) He was scum that game, by the way.

I don't like the Boro Mastin buddying going on. Especially right after the emphasis on the NOT BUDDYING coming from Boro.

[Tr1ckster]

What makes you so certain you're wrong, Moon?

You're letting your paranoia take control of you. Get a hold of yourself.

Eh. I don't really want to play anymore. *sigh* Ah well. I'll keep playing. I just lost all my enthusiasm.

If you do end up lynching me, Moon, and live to D2, keep an eye on mastin for me, alright?

[Tr1ckster]

Right. Mastin, who you pre-emptively worried about not setting me straight when it came to my read on you.

You're scum this time and I can't believe all the things I managed to miss. =/

You forget that was an assumption I made. I couldn't have known, I simply assumed. I guess that part is my bad.

Your certainty is making me doubt my read on you. Don't do this to me, please. >.< I hate paranoia.

[Tr1ckster]

How would I be certain that you're scum unless I'm scum with you? We both know that's not true.

You tried to redirect attention from Zeph and you assumed the worst of Mastin as she caught up. Your reaction to her scumreading you is what's making me confident though. Town-Tricks would have welcomed that with open arms, just as I did. =/

Are you saying you welcoming it was planned?

FoS Moon

I didn't welcome it because she scumread me for what I perceive to be no town motivated reason whatsoever. Because I expected her to read me correctly. Besides, you know I think very differently from you. I tend to be far more confident and aggressive.. and.. to my detriment.. OMGUS-y. Or at least I expect you do.

I have never welcomed a scum read on me with open arms.

[Tr1ckster]

How would I be certain that you're scum unless I'm scum with you? We both know that's not true.

You tried to redirect attention from Zeph and you assumed the worst of Mastin as she caught up. Your reaction to her scumreading you is what's making me confident though. Town-Tricks would have welcomed that with open arms, just as I did. =/

And I"m not saying you're certain I"m scum. I'm saying you're acting certain because you see me as a good strong lynch for you and you believe your certainty will get me lynched. Or another reason. THere are many reasons you could be acting certain I'm scum... and most of them lead to you being scum, IMO.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm flattered you and mastin think I'm that good at scum, though

[Tr1ckster]

This game has made me realize that my greatest strength as Town is also my greatest weakness: I'm unbelievably bad at reading certain players, but I somehow manage to listen to someone who thinks differently and then I reform the puzzle in my head the right way.

It feels so bittersweet and that's what's happening right now. I'll be shocked if Tricks isn't scum with Zeph.

You calling yourself confident when you know your strong suit isn't reading people, but getting them to react is a huge alarm bell. You really are scum. =/

Oh yeah. I forgot my reads are crap. But you know my reads are crap. So why am I suspect for suspecting mastin? LOL I give up. I'm going to read you as strong town all the way to my grave. Why? Because this feels like one of those movies where the best friends get broken up because a mutual enemy spreads lies between them. If you do manage to lynch me, go after boro next, alright? I'm not going to try to read mastin because OMGUS says she's scum as eff.

[Tr1ckster]

Win this one for town, alright? I don't wanna destroy my 2-0 record as town.

[Tr1ckster]

Moon:

What would your read on Zephyr be if I flip town?

Mastin:

What would your read on Moon be if I flip town?

[Tr1ckster]

Eh. I don't like meta. I don't like playing to my meta...

Maybe I haven't pushed people's buttons...

I guess I haven't found my spot in this game yet. It's infuriating because everyone's fighting and won't shut up and listen to what the other people are saying. I know I've been a part of the problem, but seriously. I'm almost certain there's scum in the chaos - and I'm leaning strong towards Boro for that one... But maybe because I don't understand his reasoning. I just kinda wish people would stop being pissed at each other and talk it out. There are too many teams here. Too many connections. It's annoying to try and figure them all out. It's like we've all formed little gangs and decided to have gang wars with each other even though most of us are on the same team. >.< I can't focus or tunnel one player because someone else starts answering the questions I ask that player or defending them, or I get sidetracked by someone attacking me and calling me scum... I can't get into my little tunnel and it's frustrating me, because right as soon as I've got my sights focused I get hit in the side or someone else takes the shot for the player I'm trying to get stuff out of. Usually I thrive in chaos, but this is ridiculous. I have no idea what this is. Ah well. You probably can't follow what I just wrote, so the fact that I lowered myself to AtE doesn't matter anyways. Sometimes I wish I had more emotions/feelings so I could relate to people and show them my passion and make people want to work together and stuff... Anyways, sorry for getting all emotional. Maybe I'm just exhausted and I'm imagining all the infighting. >.<

/end rant.

[Tr1ckster]

Anyways. I believe I'm at L-1? I already claimed on accident in my frustration with Baezu, as Moonlight pointed out, but I guess maybe it's best if I restate for purposes?

I don't see the point in not restating it since it's already out there, and I guess it might help my case if I just confirmed.

Here goes:
I'm vanilla town.

[Tr1ckster]

You're at L-3...

I know what you mean about the situation in this game. At least now we're heading towards a direction. A bad one from your perspective, but the reactions to it should be telling. Worst case scenario: you get lynched, you flip Town, I look like opportunistic scum. I'll deal with that shitstorm if it comes.

For now, I need some sleep.

L-3? Crud. I"m not as popular as I thought.

Hey, you. Yeah, you. The townspeople? Moonlight's being Moonlight. Paranoid as crap to the point he's turning on me because he's scared to trust anyone in this game. He's not opportunistic scum, he's town, and as town as it gets. When I flip town, Moon is conftown, alright? Don't give him crap about turning on me, he did what he thought was best. He's just as uninformed as all the other townies here. Treat him like conftown after I flip.

[Tr1ckster]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: YurikoJasmine

Sorry Moon, I don't think I can see Zeph as scum right now. And my pressure vote wasn't doing much. So.

[Tr1ckster]

Naw. Moon might be scum, but I doubt it.

Baezu's not scum. She legitimately believes there's a case on me.

[Tr1ckster]

Exactly.

Zeph isn't scum, I don't think.

I'm not passive aggressive.

[Tr1ckster]

XD Only I would get scumread for not being offensive XD

[Tr1ckster]

Hm. Nice catch there, Moon. I was beginning to get suspicious because, you know.. you only read a couple people as scum... but you only read two people as a scum team... and you only pressed for lynches on those two people.

[Tr1ckster]

That's hammer? ^^

[Tr1ckster]

Ah. Alright, well I already claimed.

[Tr1ckster]

Wait.

Why the unvote? O_O I thought Mastin was the lady who put the vote on me in the first place?

Ah well. I guess this is all quite evident I need to fix my game up a little more if I'm getting scumread hard right now. You said I needed more passion in my posting, Mastin? I'm afraid that will be hard to fix. I don't have feelings.. and faking them gets me lynched pretty quickly.

[Tr1ckster]

Cool.

Can everyone who's got their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm scum?

And everyone who doesn't have their vote on me post a good reason they think I'm town?

Anyone who's null on me, please pick a side and stick to it.

And if you can't find a good reason to think I'm scum, please unvote me. The reverse goes for if you can't think of a good reason I'm town.

Actually.. now that I think about it...

Could everyone do that for everyone they've got their vote on? I'll start.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BoroPhil

Because he makes little to no sense to me, and I can't understand his train of thought. He seems to be misunderstanding things on purpose, unwilling to work with town, and overall stubborn.

[Tr1ckster]

2) The focus on mastin. Every time that subject came up, you had to plant the idea of scum-mastin. And what is most troubling is that town-you would have attempted a wagon on her early on if you were really worried. Maybe not in place of your NM vote, but in place of your Finglove one.

Here's why this is wrong:

Remember Mewbie? They reacted badly to the Nacho wagon. Also it didn't really mean anything, it being RVS and all. And still the newbs thought I was scum for it and Nacho wasn't really distanced at all.

These people aren't newbies - how much less are they going to fall for this trick? No, I needed to be more subtle this time. A blatant RVS vote on her wasn't going to get me anywhere, I needed to cast doubt in people's minds so people weren't afraid to vote for her if necessary.

[Tr1ckster]

Alright. Let's take down some scum before I die.

@YurikoJasmine

What are your thoughts on the game so far?

And as Moonlight pointed out, you've been online and you have no other games... Why haven't you been posting?

@Ascended

If I'm not scum, who do you think is? And why do you only have two people down as scum?

@Moonlight

Why have you only been pressing two or three people as scum? You've remarked that other people may seem scummy, but ... ?

___

Ergh... >_>

I can't help but see your interaction with mastin weird this game, Moon. And I don't like how she seemed to start out scumreading you and...

No. I'm not going to start.

___

@Boro

If I'm not scum, who do you think is? And why have you been absent?

@N_M

May I have your reads list please?

@4 Heads

What made you change your mind on me?

___

PEdit:

Did I say he confuses me? Hm. I must have lied. Zeph makes sense to me. He's a good strong townread.

Mastin's the most experienced player here. She's highly respected for her insights, I believe most, if not all, of the players know this. Most people aren't as hard to influence as you... and someone with a good rep tends to get easy town points where someone with a bad rep might have to fight for them hard.

[Tr1ckster]

I don't like his answer. My problem isn't having only two scum reads...

It's having only two scum reads and reading them as a team.

And then not really looking for scum anywhere else.

[Tr1ckster]

No, please do. Nothing she has said has given me reason to think that slot is scum and I was townreading Pasch already, so that slot looks Town as fuck from where I'm standing.

If you were Town, you could at least theorize about how at some point I discouraged the Finglove wagon, which would pair me nicely with him, or even Jasmine who I have not gone after despite calling her out for active lurking.

Instead, what do you do? You obsess with mastin because that's the lazy and easy road for you to fake Town.

Is it really the easy road? I'd say it's a pretty hard one.

And it's too easy for you and finny or you and Jasmine to be scum together. Plus your interactions don't make sense.

It makes a lot of sense for you and Ascended to be scum together, though. Suddenly pieces start falling into place.

I have to say.. I really don't like the way you overreacted to this accusation.

I was townreading them... But your reaction is making me unsure of myself.

I am giving you room to be Town,

*raises eyebrow* You are?

PEdit: I already said you two are not scum together necessarily.

Yes, and I responded "nice catch."

[Tr1ckster]

I am reacting strongly because you of all players here should know this is Town-me by now.

Is it? Town you tends to town-read less and question more.

If you want to go by meta I'd run a pretty hard scum read on you right now because you feel shifty. You're not looking at the big picture like town!Moon, you're looking at two people. You did a PBP Analysis of pretty much the entire thread... and you come up with two scum reads? That isn't town!Moon. Town!Moon would come up with four scum reads like he did in the Mewbie game on D2 after a similar revelation.

You don't focus on only part of a scum team as town, you focus on the whole thing.

No, you have far too much tunnel vision to be town!Moon by meta-call.

Good thing I'm not reading you by meta, neh?

"Too easy"? Why isn't it too easy then for me and The_Ascended? I've townread both heads of that hydra the whole game, Pasch townreads me, mastin started with a scumread that changed along the way, I don't see anything hard there.

Exactly why it's hard.

You're not trying hard enough. =/

Really? Most players would argue I'm trying

too

hard.

[Tr1ckster]

I wouldn't say Trickster isn't trying. It's just completely misdirected effort.

Misdirected?

Hm. What made you change your scum read on Moon then?

[Tr1ckster]

Also,

I was townreading them... But your reaction is making me unsure of myself.

Come again?

I'm not going to try to read mastin because OMGUS says she's scum as eff.

What changed between these posts? All that slot had to do was unvote for a townread?

Bull. Shit.

You've never seen me lie about my reads before?

Never seen me institute fake pressure?

You're starting to make me wonder whether I really ever played with you.

[Tr1ckster]

our own isn't really helping.

It isn't?

It's helped me a lot.

[Tr1ckster]

You've never seen me lie about my reads before?

Never seen me institute fake pressure?

You're starting to make me wonder whether I really ever played with you.

I've seen you lie about your reads, sure. But to say that you tried to put pressure on mastin is really hard to believe, there was no fucking way anyone would feel pressured by that lone vote you tossed her way.

Exactly why I needed to toss more than a vote her way.

The funniest thing in this argument of ours is that you say you didn't want an obvious wagon on her because you'd be scumread for it. And now that I'm talking about how bad your vote on her was, you act surprised. By your own logic, why shouldn't I scumread you?

You could misinterpret it that way, yes.

As to your "bigger picture" comment, you mentioned a keyword: "D2". I'm not going to look for the whole scum team on D1, I have learned my lesson about not being a scumhunting god. No one is. I want to see a flip for now, and even if I get killed tonight I'll be fine with it, I've shared each and every thought I've had, I've tried my best with what I've seen.

Uh huh. Yeah.. not debating meta with you. Let's just say if I was reading you based on meta I would be certain you're scum right now.

I'm looking forward to seeing answers to your 547, at least if you're somehow Town I might be able to tell through those interactions, our own isn't really helping. >_>

Uh huh... so ... why can't you read me from our interactions again?

[Tr1ckster]

Because I see things that don't fit. I have already explained how your manipulation makes sense as Town only if you thought you could take a lazy road without consequences. Plus. you're way too wary of how you're being read.

Am I really? Hm. I don't mean to give off that vibe.

If you're seeing similarities between my play in the previous game and this one, you should be after me. Why aren't you?

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

@Trickster Why is Moonlight the only person's case you'll respond to and the only person you will explain your reads to?

He's the only one trying to make a legitimate case on me. All I see is vibes coming from everyone else. If you can present me with a case anyone else has made, I will gladly respond to it.

Why is he not scum or VI like everyone else on your wagon?

You think everyone else on my wagon is VI or scum? Explain.

At the very least this is extremely anti-town play

Responding to the case made against me is anti-town? Now I'm really confused.

[Tr1ckster]

Also.. I'm sorry I've been absent ... I was horribly ill the past two days. I'm feeling a bit better now, however.

[Tr1ckster]

No,

you

have been mudslinging at everyone scumreading you calling them either scum or VI and when asked to explain your cases and/or to respond to people's cases against you have been obstinately ignoring it all game, which is extremely anti-town.

I have to leave the flat now so I don't have time to go quote farming but we both know that there has been plenty of stuff raised by other people that you have flagrantly ignored, mainly from me and Borophil.

No, we don't both know that, and it's fallacious of you to make that claim. I saw Boro's case, and most of it has already been addressed.

Gimme examples of your claims, please. I don't like baseless attacks.

[Tr1ckster]

I don't believe in meta reading you after the very few games we've played.

You've lost me here; you implied you see similarities between my play in this game and the one game I've been scum in. If you don't believe I'm scum, then you must believe I've watered down my Town game, which I'd never do.

What?

For one thing, I refuse to meta read you off of two games.

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then:

I'm not going to look for the whole scum team on D1, I have learned my lesson about not being a scumhunting god. No one is. I want to see a flip for now, and even if I get killed tonight I'll be fine with it, I've shared each and every thought I've had, I've tried my best with what I've seen.

[Tr1ckster]

For another thing.. You would never water down your town game? Explain this, then

That's not watering down my game, it's the opposite. I'm waiting for a flip to tell me I'm on the right track before I take a serious look at associative tells.

In every game I've tried to use associative tells pre-emptively, they've been inaccurate. And every time I've needed someone to put me back on the right track, and they did, and things worked out from there.

I'm liking your "ignore his meta because the games are too few" approach. This way you might actually come up with something that looks legit about how I'm scum in this one. Entertain me, I'm waiting.

The only scum read I have on you is associative. I actually think you're probably town. Did I ever say I had a scum read on you this game? I don't believe so. If I read you as scum, I would have my vote on you. Instead, my vote is on Boro, who is scum. He's bringing up already addressed issues in an attempt to distract me and seem town.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm phoneposting so I can't quote but quote Boro's case for me and show me point by point where you've addressed it. And none of these weaksauce "this is nonsense" or "I get bad vibes" non-answers, actual specific game-related responses deconstructing it.

And N_M is doing the same thing Boro is.

Speaking of which.. do you even have a case on me? I thought you just said you agreed with Boro.

[Tr1ckster]

Um. Does anyone else see the irony of this situation?

[Tr1ckster]

No, N_M, I will not do for you the thing you refuse to do for me.

[Tr1ckster]

I'm not distracting town by addressing points I've already addressed. If you have something legitimate against me, feel free to bring it up now.

[Tr1ckster]

No, it has not changed.

I don't see a good reason to scumread him. He's been lurkish, yes, but I have larger scumreads on other players right now. I see what you're saying about him, but he doesn't seem to care about how he's read. His actions seem town and his motivations for them, too, seem town to me. I'll look at him when some of my other scum reads are resolved.

[Tr1ckster]

Hanzo wasn't stubborn in his previous games?

As to 4 heads.. that doesn't sit right, no... but the rest of their play seems fairly consistent.

[Tr1ckster]

Sorry for not posting or anything recently.

Anyways,

Moonlight, is anyone questioning The_Ascended?

Why is this?

Do you still believe my fear that their word would be taken as law?

@N_M why have you been reduced to merely commenting instead of legitimately asking questions and searching for scum?

[Tr1ckster]

@Yuriko, why are you worried about a vote count? Do you have any comments on the game so far?

[Tr1ckster]

My townread on boro is because I do see him actively pursuing his read(s), on the top of my head the biggest example would be his interactions with Moonlight regarding Trickster before moonlight's read flipping and having no reservations about being in the spotlight or at the forefront of the game.

Hm. There goes my hesitancy to scumread you.

I'll go back and respond to what I need to.

[Tr1ckster]

Also, I don't think I'll bother repeating myself when it comes to Tricks. He must have at least skimmed through my huge wall, in which I have pointed out which posts by him make him scumread him, and his replies are not convincing.

I don't think this is Town-him being stubborn, it's scum-him being caught and not knowing how to escape.

Hm? Sorry, no. I flail when I don't know how to escape.

One thing has me curious, though. I'm going to be lynched, neh? So why aren't you scumhunting elsewhere? Why are you so content with my death and no further information?

Sure, you've commented on other people, but you haven't actually questioned.

And I really don't like your reaction to the implication that you could be scum earlier. After my death, I would seriously look into Moonlight's play, @Town.

[Tr1ckster]

You really aren't paying any attention to what I've been saying. =/ I'm waiting for your flip before I scumhunt elsewhere, not to mention I have already stated that I'm scumreading Zeph and Jasmine, making your whole point invalid.

LOL what? Just because you have further scumreads doesn't mean you're scumhunting elsewhere. Why would you give up after you've got me? That doesn't make sense. Set up town for D2. Get them ready. Town doesn't give in. It doesn't even make sense to wait for my flip. My point isn't invalid, you

haven't

been scumhunting elsewhere. You've got two further scumreads - so what? You're not exploring them. I've paid close attention to everything you've said, and it's not sitting right with me as town.

tl;dr

I have been paying attention to what you've been saying.

Why would you wait for my flip?

My point isn't invalid - having scumreads =/= scumhunting - scum can easily BS their reads.

[Tr1ckster]

Still waiting on this. I will hunt you down Trickster.

Erp. Sorry, I'll try to get to it. >.<

[Tr1ckster]

@Moonlight

You know as well as I do that pointing fingers

isn't

scumhunting, it's commenting.

Work with people. Ask questions. That is what scumhunting is. You are doing none of this.

Instead, you are giving up. You're not looking for scum anymore. You're satisfied with one caught scum.

Alright, let's put it this way. You're certain I'm scum, neh? That's as good as a scum flip. Now start looking for other players who would be my buddy if I flipped scum. At the very least do this.

[Tr1ckster]

@Mod Sorry I haven't posted much recently. I'm very sick and have limited access to computers and such. I'll be V/LA until Monday at the soonest. I can probably check in every once in a while and still get the minimum posting requirement, but that depends on how long I'm awake for.

[Tr1ckster]

Oh gees.

I shouldn't even look at this game...

The play here is making me even sicker.

UNVOTE:

It's too much, Moon. I want to have you as town... but so much of your play adds up to your being scum.

VOTE: Moon

Props, though. You did a very good job so far.

More on this later.