MINI 1688 — BEES!!! — game over

[Green Crayons]

Nope.

VOTE: Bella

[Green Crayons]

5 votes? That's quite the wagon for such an early, random stage.

Whatcha wanna do about it?

[Green Crayons]

Because she voted obvtown.

Why is Bella the towniest player?

[Green Crayons]

Wait. How is Glork's vote not RVS?

[Green Crayons]

GUYS

BEES

UNVOTE: Bella
VOTE: KayP

[Green Crayons]

AND GALS

SORRY FOR THE CAUSAL SEXISM

[Green Crayons]

Or would that be systemic patriarchy built into our language?

Oh man, such wonders!

[Green Crayons]

I was more fishing to see if this is standard for this website. I know everyone plays differently and has different expectations, but the 2-3 games I read didn't have this happen. and nobody else had commented on it.

It's not normal, but this isn't a normal game.

IT'S A LIGHTNING ROUND GAME.

[Green Crayons]

also

UNVOTE:
VOTE: For99ger

it's p obvious but I'll spell it out when I'm sober

[Green Crayons]

caps are for emphasis because it's hilarious

please don't think I'm yelling at you

[Green Crayons]

like

I'm all for being fuck rvs

but fro99ger is like "HEY YALL how about some meta seriousness up in this thread SUPER SERIOUS FACE"

ugh stop it you scumbag

[Green Crayons]

oh wow 4 posts


DID YOU SAY 4 POSTS




4 POSTS IN 3 PAGES



HOOOOLY CRAP GUYS



like, really, man?

[Green Crayons]

...are you high?

Agent of the Patriarchy: spotted.

[Green Crayons]

Okay, but... well first off, I don't know why you're yelling at me. And second off, it's "lightning round", but we still have a week, right? I don't think "one week to get day over with" justifies "someone being at five votes a few hours after the game begins".

Just commenting about something is a great way to be scum.

"X-ACTION is suspicious, I do think!" - Exhibits activity and suspicion, without actually doing the thing that makes the game work (voting).

I was basically pressuring you to vote the person you thought most suspicious on the ducks wagon, because that was the appropriate follow-up to your observation that the ducks wagon did not appear protown-motivated.

Have you followuped voted yet? You should. I would be interested to see where it lands.

[Green Crayons]

oh wow 4 posts


DID YOU SAY 4 POSTS




4 POSTS IN 3 PAGES



HOOOOLY CRAP GUYS



like, really, man?

eh

I apologize for the asshole tenor of this post

but the point stands

~*~ arm cross, sunglasses on, cool face ~*~

[Green Crayons]

Am I being paranoid, or is frog/kayP/GC interaction pinging for anyone else?

Be more specific.

[Green Crayons]

You said you saw something you haven't explained (it might be his meta push?) then mentioned re-voting, and Kay immediately follows you on to Frog. I didn't like her vote jump in response to your prod. What did you think about it?

Ah, alrighty.

I have no feelings about it. I'll probably feel good about it if frog is scum, bad about it if frog is town.

I'm a simple kinda guy.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah that vote from UT is pretty weaksauce.


But I'm more inclined to UNVOTE: frogger and VOTE: Kay.

Her response to Glork is not good.

[Green Crayons]

The deflection onto GC/Bob is the biggest thing.

Her position on Bob in Post 97 doesn't appear to naturally arise from her prior interaction with Bob, and thus looks like an attempt to untruthfully undermine Glork's criticism on that point.

[Green Crayons]

That second point is awkwardly worded, but I need more coffee before you get pretty, digestable sentences.

[Green Crayons]

Is saying you never roll scum reason to lynch someone?

[Green Crayons]

Like,

Unfortunately there are no completed scum games in their wiki,

This is because I literally never role scumsies

wtf else is ducks supposed to say?

[Green Crayons]

^^^ I didn't even realize it was being said in response to someone commenting about her lack of previous scum games until right this second.

Please tell me you were skimming and also missed it.

Because sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeit.

[Green Crayons]

I'm curious about your "

all

the way" characterization. Her Post 89 and Post 92 are on the same page. That's... not very far, certainly not "all the way" far.

[Green Crayons]

TTH

Ladyfriend

Please

I'll let you know when I'm attacking you. I'll become a super smug asshole. Until then, less hackles.

[Green Crayons]

I actually found your "case in point" paragraph difficult to follow, and I originally had a line up of several questions

But I reread it a few times, and I think I get what you're saying

the "all the way" characterization just still stood out at me

[Green Crayons]

I really don't like Bella's reaction to Glork because the context very much suggests "kneejerk reaction."

I mean, yes, this is pretty much the best reason to vote Bella.

(Your specific problems with frogger/TTH I will wait to see what Bella has to say for herself regarding them.)

What do you think about the fact that she had just recently used that very suspicion to push Kay suspicions?

Am I being paranoid, or is frog/kayP/GC interaction pinging for anyone else?

Be more specific.

You said you saw something you haven't explained (it might be his meta push?) then mentioned re-voting, and Kay immediately follows you on to Frog. I didn't like her vote jump in response to your prod. What did you think about it?

[Green Crayons]

TTH I don't even understand how that answers my question/observation at all.

[Green Crayons]

I think the vote-Kay-immediately-after-being-prodded suspicion is valid on its own.

I give pause, however, when Bella had really recently pointed out Kay's very own actions that fit that mold as being suspicion potential.

Scum are usually very self conscious about their play. Taking this piece of suspicion requires believing that Bella simultaneously (A) recognized this play as scummy and (B) failed to recognize that she was committing the very same act she called suspicious.

[Green Crayons]

So what?

I am a psychic and a genius, and therefore foresaw this question and answered it in 168

[Green Crayons]

You know, the more wine I drink, the more I really want to take a defibrillator to the ducks wagon.

I'll raise my glass of Glenfiddich to this, and in the spirit of working together:

UNVOTE: Kay
VOTE: shadox

[Green Crayons]

Kitty is equally bad, but shadox has votes and BWs rock.

[Green Crayons]

Glork didn't pressure her to vote Kay.

Unless if Bella & Kay are scum together.

[Green Crayons]

oh I thought you meant, like, putting a defibrillator to a living person... which makes 'em dead.

Hey, I gave you credit for an

unnecessarily

really complex analogy!

[Green Crayons]

VOTECOUNT 1.07

• (3)

  Bellaphant

  —
  Glork, TellTaleHeart, Untrod Tripod
  
  (0)

  Bicephalous Bob

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Bob Loblaw

  —
  
  
  (1)

  Fro99er

  —
  Bob Loblaw
  
  (0)

  Glork

  —
  
  
  (0)

  Green Crayons

  —
  
  
  (1)

  KayP

  —
  Bellaphant
  
  (0)

  Kitty Galore

  —
  
  
  (2)

  lalaladucks

  —
  Kitty Galore, Shadoxx8
  
  (3)

  Shadoxx8

  —
  KayP, lalaladucks, Green Crayons
  
  (0)

  TellTaleHeart

  —
  
  
  (0)

  The Bulge

  —
  
  
  (3)

  Untrod Tripod

  —
  The Bulge, Bicephalous Bob, Fro99er
  
  
  (0)

  (NOT VOTING)

  —
  
  
  With
  13

  alive
  , it takes
  7

  votes
  to lynch.

mmmmmm

I'd be fine with a Bella/Shadoxx head-to-head D1 lynch off.

The correct choice obviously being Shadoxx.

[Green Crayons]

Case in point: the progression on my L-2 vote. Somehow, Frogger's comments are bad (Post 89) but then we figure out all the way on page 4 that she thought my L-2 vote "without comment" was somehow offensive (Post 92). "L-X without comment" is a really easy thing to lean on but it doesn't require much thought and those arguments tend to turn out to be really superficial. What's worse is that she fishes for [backup] before actually voting (Post 92).

See this made sense to me. It was bad. But it feels like she listens to frog's response [#91] about suspecting the L-2 vote (not the misunderstood joke) and totally dismisses the idea even though his explanation has NOTHING to do with the point made above. Yes he thought the L-2 vote was suspicious, but continued to support the lalala wagon in spite of his suspicions. Instead of sticking to her guns on a good point, she turns around and wants to start a TTH wagon with frog.

These are the same thing, right?

[Green Crayons]

I strongly suspect that most of the bad feelings about this post are actually rooted in the writing style.

No, it's the fencesitting.

[Green Crayons]

Frog, you make it sound like you agree that the Shadox case is "trumped up and not really deserving of the attention or the wagon it's getting," but GOSH DARN IT your hands are tied because otherwise NEWBIES and NO POSTING.

[Green Crayons]

GC, you are way above relying on buzzwords to make cases.

A) Don't attack the form instead of the substance of my suspicion. Buzzword pearl clutching is something I have done myself, but I'm using the term here as a summary of the main thrust of the criticism directed at Shadox that Kay already spelled out in Post 132 (which you're ignoring in favor of a problem with writing style).

You're trying to shame me for not rising to my ego on the basis that I used shorthand to reiterate 132. No dice.

B) He is fencesitting regarding ducks: RVS ducks vote. Fine. Then comes back to say that ducks's play is consistent with ducks' D1 play generally. Also fine. Then compares ducks's D1 play to a lot of players, thereby suggesting that this is a town read. Then immediately notes that prior experience with an undefined "she" (ducks? good monring?) D1 play was scum play. End result is Shadox has successful established that ducks play could be town, could be scum, and he maintains his vote.

What's that? Fencesitting.

[Green Crayons]

My point was, if people don't push on Shadoxx (or Kitty), we're just going to let them sit there and do fuck all in a quick game. It's one thing to go V/LA or just completely flake. It's another thing to be active elsewhere yet not post in this thread.

That's cool and all, but my point is is that you appear to agree with TTH's basic premise (the Shadox wagon is bad for the reasons previous articulated ITT), but that you're maintaining a Shadox vote now simply as a lurker vote.

I'm trying to figure out what suspicions you are still embracing, and what suspicions you're dropping.

[Green Crayons]

There's a missing piece here and that's proof that it's a calculated move to maintain credibility.

I have no idea what you are saying here. What missing piece?

[Green Crayons]

@TTH:

B) He is fencesitting regarding ducks: RVS ducks vote. Fine. Then comes back to say that ducks's play is consistent with ducks' D1 play generally. Also fine. Then compares ducks's D1 play to a lot of players, thereby suggesting that this is a town read. Then immediately notes that prior experience with an undefined "she" (ducks? good monring?) D1 play was scum play. End result is Shadox has successful established that ducks play could be town, could be scum, and he maintains his vote.

So you don't know which antecedents go to which pronouns and the overall message of the post is confusing?

It's almost like the root cause of this is... unclear writing. Where did I hear that before?

No.

It doesn't matter whether "she" is referring to ducks or GM.

Because in either instance, the point being made - ducks's play is town AND ducks's play is scum (vis-a-vis ducks/GM) - is the same.

That he's intentionally obfuscating the meaning of his post.

lol, what?

Like, on what basis are you justifying this projection?

This is some serious baseless 11th dimensional chess, here.

[Green Crayons]

So is ducks going to come in here and claim already or what?

[Green Crayons]

Aw ducks is being nice to me.

Let's do the Shadox thing instead.

Boblob, FWIW, I happen to like the cases you make.

[Green Crayons]

@Shadox:

So hi everyone, apoliges on having not much activity. I just have had too much school work at the moment lol.

But yeah, I find it hard to comment in D1 phase, votes are still meant to be RVS no?

Sup guy

two questions

(1) is ducks scum?

(2) did you "intentionally obfuscate" the meaning of your Post 111?

[Green Crayons]

The "being nice" comment was meant to be taken tongue in cheek.

I don't read ducks as town. I just haven't seen a vote ducks justification that is convincing.

[Green Crayons]

we have two days and I'm not exactly reading shadox as TOWN

[Green Crayons]

That's a fair complaint. I'm personally semi-paranoid about ducks because her posting DOES appear loweffort, but I incorrectly scumread her in a game we just got out of for similar treatment.

I do not fault you for that justification. It just isn't working for me atm.

[Green Crayons]

as in

I vote for ducks

you vote for shadox

???

[Green Crayons]

i see your support offer, and raise you in-thread masonhood

[Green Crayons]

Sure.

UNVOTE: Shadox
VOTE: ducks

We can start here since she's already claimed VT.

[Green Crayons]

WAIT FUCK THIS ISN'T OUR PT OH GOD HOW DID THIS GET HERE I AM NOT GOOD WITH COMPUTER

p sure scum think we're joking

[Green Crayons]

Do you have any feelings about anyone?

[Green Crayons]

Setting aside your undying affection for me, ofc.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah I was looking back at the VCs.

[Green Crayons]

uuuunnnhhhhh

UT

I'm feeling bad about my vote.

[Green Crayons]

*WAFFLES LIKE A BOSS*

[Green Crayons]

hunh

not where I thought you were going to direct your suspicions

[Green Crayons]

Well let's close up shop.

Cause

V/LA & phone access only until Monday.

[Green Crayons]

Not interested in Bella
Not interested in Shadox

No idea what to make of TTH's creative reimagining of Shadox's second post. For now, I'll attribute it to her otherworldly genius. (Along with all the other bits of her presence in this game I'm just not getting.)

[Green Crayons]

Yeah I'm game for Kay. I gotta clear it with UT though because we have this connection going on.


It's a sex thing tbqh.

[Green Crayons]

My 85 (incorporate Bella's post) and 164.

She had a good point about Shadox but, I dunno.

[Green Crayons]

124 I mean, 164 isn't me

[Green Crayons]

I too want Glork's explanation for 2/3 of <shadox/Bella/kay> is scum.

[Green Crayons]

If it's between Bob and Glork I'll vote Bob but honestly I'm sort of flummoxed on reads atm.

UNVOTE: ducks

[Green Crayons]

So I reread Shadox's post. Again.

It reads genuine, which is why I originally backed away from that vote. But it's also pretty substance-less. A lot of sorting of players based on whether they bandwagon, for example. Which is a great way to genuinely sort folks that isn't alignment indicative.

I think that could just as easily come from new town as it could come from new scum. I would be willing to lynch Shadox.

[Green Crayons]

I don't know why people keep saying x-wagon fell apart quickly. If player X is scum, then (presumably) at most only 2 scum must have been bussing, and even taking into account their hop off, that still leaves all the other town on the BW.

If player X does end up being scum, the BW's death is something to look at definitely, but the speed is not alignment indicative for player X's alignment.

[Green Crayons]

Ducks escaped from L-1 and has done absolutely nothing with it.

Would be willing to lynch ducks just so we don't have to revisit it later.

[Green Crayons]

Aaaaand just finished reading TTH/Glork/BiBob ISO.

Not feeling a Glork vote.

@TTH:

do you still think Bella is scum? I got confused with your most recent unvote of her and your comment about being premature.

I think Glork's case on BiBob in 334 is mixed.

The VC point is superfluous - the point is BiBob is asking Glork if Glork thinks Shadox acted in a certain manner in light of the game state. Shadox would know that game state by looking at the VC. The fact that Glork didn't mention Shadox looking at the VC is irrelevant because it's implied by way of the fact that Glork attributes purpose to Shadox's actions.

The Glork's theory of ducks/Shadox scumbuddies comment is also blah. I have no reason to think this was somehow a malicious scum lie coming from BiBob rather than a simple mistake, especially because of how easily it can be shown false and how little value it provides BiBob.

The third point - BiBob mischaracterizing Glork's Shadox theory so as to say that Glrok thinks Shadox's primary goal was to defend Bella - holds water and is pretty solid as far as points go. With Glork's problem was Shadox this reframed, BiBob's has a superb point. But one that doesn't actually hold up to reality, because BiBob is criticizing a case Glork didn't really make.

BiBob's defense that is was "hyperbole" hits me the wrong way. Like, sure, you can be hyperbolic in this game, but that doesn't really justify warping someone else's case to where it becomes seriously flawed. This is also a weak excuse because, as a defense, I have no way to discern whether it is true (and context does not push me in that direction).

[Green Crayons]

The Bulge votes are a little late.

VOTE: BiBob

[Green Crayons]

Vote: Kitty Galore

Why?

[Green Crayons]

So how did BiBob become a distraction from your scum group?

[Green Crayons]

I'm operating under the assumption Bulge is getting replaced in the next day or two, and looking for more out of Kitty, given I think there's an above-average chance of at least one scum lurking their way through the game.

But don't worry. I haven't forgotten about Bella or KP.

Still waiting for Shadoxx to answer my question from D1, too.

So what was the point of this comment?

[Green Crayons]

I dunno.

I feel weird about you Glork.

Reading the day start, that was my main concern with your sudden Kitty vote - you were pounding the scumgroup drum in D1, then got distracted at the end of D1 by BiBop, and now you're chasing after someone new instead of your scumgroup - and you just put a spotlight on that proto-suspicion in your 434 with a very large helping of self awareness.

[Green Crayons]

@frog:

I can get behind the asking-permission-mentality is scum, but the asking for a claim = autoscum is a real stretch.

[Green Crayons]

And where did I say asking for a claim was autoscum? Purely situational in this case.

Yeah, sorry. I worded that poorly. I'm not saying that you are saying asking for a claim is, in and of itself, autoscum.


I am saying that you are saying asking for a claim in the situation presented here is autoscum. And I am disagreeing with that.

a) Already had one VT claim
b) Have 1 hour to go...then the only thing that can happen with 1 hour to go is to get information for a NK

Seriously...do you really think a claim with 1 hour to go would have done town any good?

It might have? I mean, there's a bunch of hypotheticals we could trot out - maybe BiBob was doc, for example, or a more useful cop - where a random panic lynch or (heaven forbid) a no lynch would have been a better alternative than killing that PR.

The argument that asking for a claim in that situation was helping direct the scum NK is also a little warped, because, like... BiBob was going to be lynched anyways? So asking for a claim was, in a sense, actually (potentially) tying the scum's NK hands because they wouldn't have gotten the BiBob mislynch, and so scum was going to have to NK BiBob if they actually wanted to get rid of him.

[Green Crayons]

@Glork:

1.

Yes, I'm pressuring a chronic lurker. Yes, I still have suspicions of other players. Yes, I'm still waiting word from Shadoxx. Yes, I'm pursuing multiple possible scum venues at once. What exactly is so weird/concerning about this?

There's nothing wrong with pursing multiple scum suspects, obviously.

It's the <here is my scumgroup> then <BiBob distraction!> then <Kitty distraction!> that gives me pause. Like, you've got a scumgroup already. I would think your attention would be split among them. Instead, you keep getting distracted.

2.

What do you think of Bella, GC?

@frog:

I can get behind the asking-permission-mentality is scum, but the asking for a claim = autoscum is a real stretch.

Seeing it once is whatever, kinda suspicious I guess. The repeated instances suggest that the play coincides with a mindset arising from a role that doesn't want to make waves.

[Green Crayons]

Oh:

What about Bulge or Kitty? Shadoxx? I'd really like to know how YOU plan to address the current terrible state of the game, because idk about you but I'm tired of losing games due to having completely apathetic towns that don't DO anything and then wonder what went wrong after the fact.

I only lose games where I'm left in LYLO.

HINT HINT SCUMBAGS

also, I'm not really concerned about low active slots on D2. I bet at least one will get replaced. let's revisit the issue on D3 or D4.

[Green Crayons]

Also, what do you expect me to do about my proposed scums? I'm already waiting two answers from Shadoxx, who hasn't posted in over three days. I just addressed Bella within the last 24 hours. I legitimately don't understand where your "OMG DISTRACTIONS" is coming from unless you want me to keep vomiting the same questions to Shadoxx over and over again until he finally posts.

(shrug)

I dunno, bro. It's just something that bothered me and so I pressed it.

[Green Crayons]

It just seems weird that if you are going to ask for a claim, that you do so with ONE HOUR LEFT when there is almost no time to organize a contingency lynch. Just feels like scum searching for info going into the night.

I agree that it's weird and likely pointless. (Sidenote: did Bella/Kay ever explain why they asked for a claim at that hour? /lazy)

If BiBob is going to be lynched anyways - thereby negating the scum needing to NK him to get him out of the game - I really don't see the scum motivation in seeking a claim. If Bob is lynched anyways, it's a mislynch (good for them) and they get the knowledge of his PR. If Bob is not lynched, and there's no lynch (a wash), they have the knowledge of the PR that they would've known via his mislynch. If Bob is no lynched, and there's a random other lynch (dangerous), they have the knowledge of the PR that they would've known via his mislynch + either one of their own dead or a rando dead.

(SHRUG)

ANYWAYS. I do think folks are onto something regarding Bella's accommodating style of play.

VOTE: Bella

[Green Crayons]

GC, what do you make of the fact that Bella and KayP both pushed on each other D1, then both ended up on the Shadoxx wagon late D1, then both came on at the end of D1 to ask for a claim and hammer? Coincidence?

The fact that they pushed for each other is unhelpful until we get a flip from one of Bella/Kay.

The fact that they both ended upon on the Shadox wagon is not much more helpful until we get a flip from one of Bella/Kay/Shadox; although I do see a somewhat credible suspicion in the fact that Bella/Kay cross-scumread each other than then agreed upon a single third party scumread.

Both coming at the end of D1 and simultaneously asking for claim-before-hammer might be something if there was daytalk.

[Green Crayons]

Lead a scumlynch already, then!

[Green Crayons]

UT we're lynching Bella or Shadoxx today

What are you even doing man

What do you feel about Kay?

[Green Crayons]

UT we're lynching Bella or Shadoxx today

What are you even doing man

What do you feel about Kay?

And frog?

[Green Crayons]

UT we're lynching Bella or Shadoxx today

What are you even doing man

What do you feel about Kay?

And frog?

And Glork, for good measure?

[Green Crayons]

I had problems with Kay's early play, but I don't even remember what they were, so I'm not convinced that they were good problems to have.

~*~ LAZY THOUGHTS ~*~

[Green Crayons]

Go swimming already, jeeze.

If someone hammers that'd be cool because then we can QL them tomorrow.

[Green Crayons]

If someone hammered you without you being able to give your thoughts on the wider game, that would be super scummy regardless of your alignment.

[Green Crayons]

I'm paranoid enough to think that if either Glork or Tammy is scum, the other is too.


I will read the novella that is the past 3 pages at some point.

[Green Crayons]

Oh only 2 days. So I should probably get around to reading the novella sooner rather than later.

[Green Crayons]

oh great, we have two days to lynch someone and everyone is unvoting

I mean

You're voting a lurker

Almost as good as an unvote tbqh

[Green Crayons]

but Green Crayons reminds me of boon skies

This is simultaneously perplexing and hilarious.

I'm going to take it as a compliment.

Make sure Boon sees this! He damned well better take it as a compliment as well.

[Green Crayons]

That was neat.

- Tammy's suspicions of Kay aren't great.

- Not a fan of Tammy constantly criticizing/suspecting Kay's play, and then getting super High Moral Ground about Kay getting sucked into responding to Tammy's criticisms/suspicions.

- I could lynch either Glork or Tammy.

[Green Crayons]

RC is p good, I expect something from him (real time) today because he promised.

SK is lazy, but he promised to not be lazy so I expect to see something from him (game time) today because he promised.

Bulge very much lurkerdodge posted and if he does it again I would be 100% okay with policy lynching.

[Green Crayons]

I'm not against a deadline extension simply because of the two new replacements.

[Green Crayons]

Basically the only reason ever to give a deadline extension, in my correct opinion.

[Green Crayons]

How in the shit did Glork go to your third to last to lynch?

[Green Crayons]

Why aren't you telling us your scumreads instead of just saying you have them?

This isn't alignment indicative in this context, that is, when RC has also said that he's got a huge post going that will tell us all this and more.

RC posts walls that rival Tammy's. You'll see.

[Green Crayons]

I

[Green Crayons]

That is an I, for sure.

[Green Crayons]

Yeah, I read that post and Glork didn't really look like "third to last lynch" material.

I didn't read the last sentence for your Glork bit, though, so there's that.

Jesus people stop writing so much.

[Green Crayons]

oooooooooooooh.

This just got interesting!

[Green Crayons]

I mentioned his behavior D1 a couple times IIRC and nobody batted an eye so I just assumed it was normal or something.

UT's play this game is pretty normal in terms of how UT plays, but RC's case is probably the best parsing of UT's playstyle into some sort of alignment case that I've seen.

[Green Crayons]

Ok, tammy. If you get lynched we'll need your thoughts on SKrew, Bulge, UT, ducky and RC? You haven't mentioned them much yet.

[Green Crayons]

Please don't write more than two paragraphs per player. Kthx.

[Green Crayons]

Please don't write more than two, 200-word paragraphs per player. Kthx.

[Green Crayons]

@Tere:

your vote options are Bella/Tammy, Glork, or UT.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand,

go

!

[Green Crayons]

Yeah.

I saw that Bulge post.

And SIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHED IRL. It was kind of embarrassing, I had to pick up my eyes because they rolled right out of my head.

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: Tammy
VOTE: Bulge

IDGAF

[Green Crayons]

I have a question that anyone may answer. Why would scum Tammy go after Glork of all players? Is this the most sensible strategy for a scum-aligned player?

If Tammy and Glork are both scum it is not an implausible strategy for Tammy to replace in, see herself almost lynched, and super attack Glork to give Glork some towncred upon Tammy's flip.

A problem with this hypothetical is that Glork was already suspecting the Bella/Tammy slot prior to Tammy replacing in. However, that inandof itself does not resolve the issue because - as Tammy herself has pointed out - Glork's push on Bella/Tammy has been bad (according to Tammy).

All of this is wild spec though until one of them flips.

[Green Crayons]

@Tere:

- ISO frogger to read his Bella/Tammy case

- ISO Tammy to read her Glork case

- ISO RC to read his UT case

[Green Crayons]

@ETL:

do this too:

@Tere:

- ISO frogger to read his Bella/Tammy case

- ISO Tammy to read her Glork case

- ISO RC to read his UT case

[Green Crayons]

I really don't think that's the most reasonable conclusion, GC. It is indeed a possibility (in fact, the Bella/Glork relationship on D1 is an even better indicator of an alliance between the two), but I find it far-fetched to want to come to that conclusion first.

Another thing to consider is what if the scumteam does not have daytalk? Tammy replaced in after N1 was over. Would she really taken it upon herself to go into superwallbus mode?

For me, you really have to suspend disbelief to get there. Not impossible, but not probable. I think they're both town, but I also think it's possible one of them could be scum. In either situation, I'd rather lynch someone else.

I didn't say it was the most reasonable conclusion in the abstract, but you asked why would Tammy-scum vote Glork, and that's your answer: because they'd both be scum.

I don't think scum have daytalk? You're the second person who has mentioned daytalk. If I were scum in Tammy's shoes, attacking my buddy on the wagon is not some convoluted, must-plan-in-advance type of strategy. And walls - oh god the walls - is just something Tammy does, so. (shrug)

I mean, I was just killing time to post. I'm not pursuing this as a Real, True Theory at the moment.

[Green Crayons]

@ETL:

yeah, I'm a pretty big proponent of setting folks up to fail, ya caught me

I was just telling you which players' ISOs contained the cases on the most talked about D2 lynch candidates (Tammy, Glork, and UT). Since, ya know, there's only 24 hours left in today.

[Green Crayons]

uuuugh synopsis? how reasonable of you to request such a thing

I delegate that duty to someone else

[Green Crayons]

@RC:

what do you think of TTH's thoughts on the players?

[Green Crayons]

@ETL:

I don't really have anything against you. I inthread masoned myself with UT because I can't read UT for shit and I figured if UT was scum it would mean I would stay alive longer.

RC replaced Shaddox, who I originally suspected but those feelings died down + TTH told me to get over my bad Shadox suspicions = RC is a town read. RC is a Really Good Player and he made a good case against UT. Prit Tee Compelling.

Well I mean, what stood out to you on D1, GC? I'm sure it will be different for everyone. Aren't there any major events that a replacing player should know?

One big thing for me was that Glork suspected <Kay, Bella/Tammy, Shaddox>, got distracted by BiBob making a Glork-case, voted BiBob to lynch (with help, obv, including from me), but then started D2 with a vote on a player outside of his scum pool.

Another big thing for me is that TTH was town, appears to have been killed as a random PR search and/or because she was onto something, and suspected Glork, Bella/Tammy, and Bulge. That doesn't make them scum, but I credit TTH for being good at the game.

[Green Crayons]

Glork makes me feel weird and shit but I've badread Glork before and Tammy is all like "yeah Glork says he's scumhunting but really he's just LOOKING like he's TRYING to scumhunt can't you plebs tell the difference JEEZE?!"

[Green Crayons]

^^^ You'll note that I find Tammy's Glork case hard to actually buy into because it requires being able to distinguish between scumhunting that is genuine and scumhunting that is only made to look genuine, and frankly that's some BS fine line distinctions that escape me.

The best thing against Tammy is not Tammy but her prior slot's occupant Bella who had a habit of (twice or three times, I forget which) not affirmatively acting until someone called her out for failing to act. It isn't a thing from whence great cases are made, but seriously IDK.

[Green Crayons]

Well maybe not BS but some seriously subtle shit that I don't do well.

[Green Crayons]

GC why did you decide to ITT mason with UT? Is it just like, well, I'm just going to assume he's town until someone yells at me so I can focus on other people?

Basically. I like UT and can't read him, so I figured we'd bullshit each other ITT.

[Green Crayons]

Alright I'm going to go eat and drink merrily, and deal with this game tomorrow.

I'm jumping on a ETL lynch today. I'd be much more comfortable waiting for tomorrow for ETL to better address RC's case.

So there's that. I bid y'all adieu.

[Green Crayons]

I'm not jumping on an ETL lynch today.*

Deleted some words from that sentence and got rid of the most important one.

[Green Crayons]

Glork there is a reason I haven't voted you.

Still want to lynch the Bulge slot. Might be scum. Even if town, I think it semi-clears some folks.

Tomorrow is basically a new game with all these replacements.

[Green Crayons]

This has

not

been a trainwreck. You take that back.

@Sonic:

Glork saw ducks as a poor performing town player. Y/N/M?

[Green Crayons]

@Kay:

I was just joking around. This quantity of replacements, in such a short time frame, is... abnormal... to say the least.

[Green Crayons]

mate

you can keep your vote on me, just give some proper reasons instead of making nonsense up okay

what are you doing

let it go

Let's kill NM already.

NM, claim.

[Green Crayons]

We were joking.

[Green Crayons]

OR WERE WE

[Green Crayons]

Anyways, NM didn't replace UT, NM replaced Bulge.

[Green Crayons]

Well hello there

Claim buttface.

[Green Crayons]

Oh, I mean:

Claim, buttface.

[Green Crayons]

And make sure it's VT so we can lynch you.

[Green Crayons]

I'm a Vanilla Citizen

Oh.

That was actually unexpected.

[Green Crayons]

Why wouldn't Tammy just point out that she could NK Glork? She never pointed it out once in all her walls, and that's the first thing you thought of.

Sonic asked why Tammy-scum would feel the need to attack Glork-town when she could just NK him.

Why would Tammy-scum say "OH NVM GLORK I'm just going to kill you tonight because I'm scum!", which is what your post here is saying she would have done.

[Green Crayons]

ugh stop it you scumbag

No scumbag,

you

stop it

Salty.

[Green Crayons]

Pedit: GC I think we're in agreement. Had Tammy just said that, it would be an insta town tell. So why didn't she just say that

I don't understand? Why would Tammy

ever

say "I'm going to NK you tonight"?

That's claiming scum.

[Green Crayons]

holy crap, you joined in 2012. WOW

2002, not 2012


wow WOW

FWIW, I don't live up to the hype.

[Green Crayons]

I knew there was miscommunication happening somewhere. Now I understand what you're saying. Computing.

[Green Crayons]

Alright, I don't think I agree that Tammy's saying or not saying that principle speaks to her alignment.

I do think that having people think that sentiment - why go after the hard target when she could just NK him? - is I guess a valid reason why Tammy-scum would have gone after Glork-scum. Kinda undercut by the fact that Tammy isn't the one pushing that justification (so I guess I do think it would be more suspicious if she actually said that).

Also, the entire question - why would Tammy-scum go after a hard target? - is based on the notion that Glork-town is a "hard" target to mislynch, which he didn't seem to think to be the case.

[Green Crayons]

Ultimately, I think the question "why would Tammy-scum push Glork-town" as a basis to townread Tammy is flawed and based on way too many assumptions.

[Green Crayons]

@ETL:

I do think that having people think that sentiment - why go after the hard target when she could just NK him? - is I guess a valid reason why Tammy-scum would have gone after Glork-scum.

ok what? You're saying that scumTammy

would

go after Glork oh wait what.. if they were scum together?

I'm saying that it is possible that Tammy-scum would go after Glork-town under the theory that people would read it as town because of how "hard" it is to mislynch Glork.

I don't know why you're asking about Tammy & Glork being scum together, but I've already stated to RC that that is also a possible scenario (but I don't know if it is likely).

Ultimately, I think the question "why would Tammy-scum push Glork-town" as a basis to townread Tammy is flawed and based on way too many assumptions.

But MS is in Glork's slot now so it doesn't really assume anything since if he is town he knows he is. What other assumptions are you meaning?

I agree. Sonic

is

in Glork's slot now. That... doesn't really matter? The basic question - would Tammy-scum push Glork-slot? - requires making assumptions about Glork-slot's alignment, along with how Tammy-scum would react replacing into a game faced with a L-3 or -2 (I forget) wagon on her slot.

The point being, is that there are reasonable hypotheses for Tammy-scum AND Tammy-town to attack Glork-scum AND Glork-town, and suggesting that one scenario is more likely than the others requires making assumptions about how Tammy and Glork play in the particular circumstances of this game. I don't think that question is useful for discerning alignment.

[Green Crayons]

1.

I obviously misspoke when I mentioned "Tammy-scum" and "Glork-scum" when talking to frogger. Do you have a point here?

2.

I was talking to frogger, not Sonic. Also, although if you want to make the argument that frogger was originally responding to Sonic, which somehow made me responding to Sonic as (which is convoluted but whatever), I'm also having the conversation while keeping in mind that RC has previously voiced the "why would Tammy-scum vote Glork" justification to townread Tammy.

3.

I refuse to believe you think

The point being, is that there are reasonable hypotheses for Tammy-scum AND Tammy-town to attack Glork-scum AND Glork-town, and suggesting that one scenario is more likely than the others requires making assumptions about how Tammy and Glork play in the particular circumstances of this game. I don't think that question is useful for discerning alignment.

is confusing.

It's pretty clear. The question can't imply Tammy's alignment.

[Green Crayons]

Ok, so I didn't really like him asking me to "address" RC's case on UT. It felt like a busy-noise request that he could use for fuel. It's a faulty request, as I'm sure you understand, since I'm not UT.

Tammy certainly had a perfectly fine time addressing the case on Bella. I was and remain skeptical, but it's not some impossible feat. You refusing to respond to RC's case is more suspicious than whatever response you could've come up with.

Then trying to pick apart your logic to make you drop your townread on Tammy is sketch as fuck. Read what I just said about it.

Also lol this is literally the point of mafia: get other people to agree with your scum reads?

[Green Crayons]

Bella/Tammy is one of the only two people I have voted today.

[Green Crayons]

omg RC might've been right

[Green Crayons]

Do you see my vote changing?

[Green Crayons]

NM is the best vote for today.

[Green Crayons]

and

"It's fuckin weird that you are creeped out by someone townreading someone else."

just lol

"It's fuckin weird that you are arguing that <basis to townread Tammy> is not alignment indicative when you are scumreading Tammy."

[Green Crayons]

@ GC I see. Can you remind me why your vote is no longer on Tammy? What made you unvote?

Bulge's repeated lurkerdodge posting, kept looking like a good idea because of the stupid number of replacements.

I think Bulge/NM remains the best lynch because I'm pretty sure RC is scum if NM is scum, and I think the folks who pushed for a Bulge lynch earlier today (yes, before I restarted the push, so not including me) are likely town if Bulge ends up town.

[Green Crayons]

So.... do you have a point?

[Green Crayons]

I do not believe that is our only option. I believe we can lynch scum today.

Got something other than GC?

[Green Crayons]

My reads are ping ponging all the fuck over the place with all these replacements.

VOTE: no lynch

I have no confidence in any lynch in the next 24 hours.

[Green Crayons]

Can Tammy please retract her replace out?

[Green Crayons]

Tammy ← Bellaphant: read Bella as scum for a p weak reason; have been slowly reading Tammy as town

ChaosOmega ← Tere ← Bob Loblaw: Bob was a super town read

Fro99er: town read from about 1/2 way through D1 to present

Metal Sonic ← Glork: my lizard brain had funny feelings about Glork, but I don't think that they were very good and Tammy's entire case is "real scumhunting v. just TRYING to look like real scumhunting" which I can't possibly discern

Green Crayons: me

KayP: town read since D2

SleepyKrew ← Kitty Galore !: no read

lalaladucks !: minimal read, lean town whose like idgaf

RedCoyote ← Shadoxx8 !!: I don't like his posts grandstanding against Bulge; a few of his other posts have struck me the wrong way (ugh effort) but idk

Not_Mafia ← The Bulge !!: wanted to kill Bulge for being shitty, but NM's "welp I'm just going to start reading and tell you thoughts" strikes me as protown

EspeciallyTheLies ← Untrod Tripod !: no thoughts about UT, but was leaning town because UT; ETL had a good replace in, but her suspicions on frogger and GC were bad; but x2, her jumping around on votes looks more town than not

[Green Crayons]

So I basically have shit for reads, replacements are not exactly helping.

[Green Crayons]

1.

so... everyone is town?

So I basically have shit for reads, replacements are not exactly helping.

2.

lol @ everything you think about me

[Green Crayons]

Don't vote NL, GC. Wow, I was not expecting you to fulfill your 895 just because I quoted it!

SK is a fine lynch, btw. Did you ever townread Kitty or SK?

ETL, would you do a ducks lynch? I don't know if you ever answered this.

I would be tempted to vote SK

Because I literally have no feelings towards his slot

But we've already gotten 3 or 4 claims out in the open already

(Oh boy, maybe we can get SK to claim a PR!)

You'll excuse me if I just want to throw me hands up, say fuck it, and just start the fuck over on D3 with our entirely new playerlist.

I 100% support the no deadline extensions, and I'm not faulting the game setup because this is what we signed up for, but I also 100% support not just going through the motions of a lynch based on "welp I guess because I have no feelings" just because the blood god demands it.



I'll reread SK's ISO but fuck I don't want to lynch anything and just call it a day already.

[Green Crayons]

oh wow NM maybe like I'll be able to gauge replacements better than a 24 hour shout out

including but not limited to replacements' take on the game, reactions to same, etc etc

[Green Crayons]

It's like

yo why don't you want to lynch after a 48 hour day

yeah there's a whole bunch of D1 stuff I have, but those reads are shit I say shit

[Green Crayons]

Do I think my reads are going to improve based off of the people who have replaced in being able to actually play and interact before the deadline?

God I hope so, otherwise I just can't mafia any more.

[Green Crayons]

Which has not escaped me as a problem I just might be having. But I have hope.

[Green Crayons]

Such as? Check one:

[ ] 8 replacements in 7 days

[ ] ominous NM musing

[Green Crayons]

oh my post was better when your observation was about the game, not me

[Green Crayons]

NM

I have a secret

I think I've lost my ability to mafia

(sigh)

[Green Crayons]

based off of 1 and 1/2 games

this being the whole 1

it ain't looking good

[Green Crayons]

Alright, here's a theory.

Let's assume Bulge/NM is town.

I would think scum would have wanted to keep your slot around back when it was Bulge because it was a good keeper for a mislynch in LYLO. So, naturally scum wouldn't want to vote your slot.

That would clear (as far as this theory goes): Shadox/RC, UT/ETL, and ducks (as of VC in Post 537).


Thoughts?

[Green Crayons]

So what you're saying is, you're starting to dislike drawing scum, riiiiight, riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight?

I mean, yeah, that's true. But I have direction and purpose as scum.

[Green Crayons]

can someone summarize claims

FWIW


BBmolla/Tammy/Bellaphant: vanilla townie
lalaladucks: vanilla townie
Not_Mafia/The Bulge: vanilla citizen (claimed x2) and a vanilla villager (claimed x1)
SleepyKrew/Kitty Galore: backup IC (same as dead TTH)


ChaosOmega/Tere/Bob Loblaw: no claim
Fro99er: no claim
Metal Sonic/Glork: no claim
Green Crayons: no claim
KayP: no claim
RedCoyote/Shadoxx8: no claim
EspeciallyTheLies/Untrod Tripod: no claim


I thought Glork had claimed VT in his last post, but I see I was incorrect.

[Green Crayons]

Bulge had no content but slot isn't scummy because NM is doing effort catchup.

Kitty had no content and slot is scummy because SK isn't doing effort catchup.


Did I accurately capture your position on these slots?

[Green Crayons]

Well that's what I got from you ISO.

Please explain.

[Green Crayons]

No, I do not see the scum motivation of showing up and being like "yup, I'm worthless."

In fact, it appears counter-intuitive to how scum would want to present themselves to the town, and scum would have to hope that town would bypass the initial "ugh lynch this worthless slot," which is not unlikely in the abstract, is pretty unlikely in the situation we're faced: a deadline looming and not many lynch candidates on the floor.



I also don't see how I was wrong: you're faulting for SK for not providing game reads by way of reading through the thread (he's only read up to page 8 or whatever), but you're crediting NM for his active/developing reads by way of reading through the thread (he's read up through page 20 or whatever). So: effort catchup.


I looked through Kitty's ISO. There were a few things that looked weird, but nothing lightning bolt alignment indicative.

Bulge wanted to and couldn't. Kitty didn't even try.

No? Bulge just graduated HS, but Kitty just got a new job.

[Green Crayons]

also... um... two "backup ICs" in a Normal game? no.

I thought this was weird too, but what's the Normal Game rule that's being broken?

[Green Crayons]

Not to mention the serious effort to keep Skrew alive and lynch NM instead.

This is funny, because I actually think the scenario is flipped: keep NM alive and lynch SK

[Green Crayons]

also... um... two "backup ICs" in a Normal game? no.

I thought this was weird too, but what's the Normal Game rule that's being broken?

Oh, like, if the IC died then we'd have two "replacement" ICs?

Like we'd sudden have two ICs if the original IC died? Is that possible, since they're both to take the single slot?

Maybe there isn't an IC.

[Green Crayons]

You're not very good at this whole discussing things, bit.

Never mind.

[Green Crayons]

I have bad feelings about RC.

1.

I don't like his buddying of me.

2.

I don't like his outrage directed at Bulge (Post 695, Post 702, Post 805, Post 806, Post 807). It looks fake and over the top. It looks like what scum would say to another scum. And then RC used that to vote Bulge (Post 955), which looks like scum bussing scum.

3.

I don't like how quickly RC unvoted Bulge/NM and then followed ETC (who replaced UT, who RC had a very lengthy post about why UT was scum in Post654) onto voting SK -

while still voicing suspicions that Bulge/NM and ETC were scum buddies

(Post 984).

4.

I don't like RC's lazy case against ducks, which as far as I can tell isn't based on much other than -maybe- an associative tell with UT/ETL? Post 1034 is particularly a bad push.



I don't know if I want yet another fucking claim, so that's why I'm hesitant to push for this. A big part of these suspicions does come down to NM's alignment, though, and so I kinda want to go ahead and double down on NM. So that's where I'm at.

[Green Crayons]

So you're just going to ignore what I've said because....?

I'm trying to discuss things with you, and about why I'm not viewing certain actions as alignment indicative or, at least, suggesting a scum alignment in the context in which the actions are being taken, but you keep going

no you're wrong

followed quickly by

I'm done arguing

[Green Crayons]

I don't know if I want yet another fucking claim, so that's why I'm hesitant to push for this. A big part of these suspicions does come down to NM's alignment, though, and so I kinda want to go ahead and double down on NM. So that's where I'm at.

And I was going to vote NM, but then I p-edited when I saw RC's NM vote.

[Green Crayons]

It means there's nothing to backup. There is no IC. They will never become replacement ICs. They will forever just be backup ICs.

It kinda clears them if town ever figure that out.

Which would go hand-in-hand with a role cop, which is the least awesome of all cops.

[Green Crayons]

our Role Cop was BiBob, who is dead

[Green Crayons]

Fixed for posterity:

can someone summarize claims

FWIW


BBmolla/Tammy/Bellaphant: vanilla townie
lalaladucks: vanilla townie
Not_Mafia/The Bulge: vanilla citizen (claimed x2) and a vanilla villager (claimed x1)
SleepyKrew/Kitty Galore: backup IC (same as dead TTH)
EspeciallyTheLies/Untrod Tripod: vanilla townie


ChaosOmega/Tere/Bob Loblaw: no claim
Fro99er: no claim
Metal Sonic/Glork: no claim
Green Crayons: no claim
KayP: no claim
RedCoyote/Shadoxx8: no claim

I must have gotten Glork and UT/ETL mixed up in my memory.

[Green Crayons]

frogger, why are you still voting the Bella/Tammy/BBmolla slot?

[Green Crayons]

freudian slip?

Scumslip.

Point me to the game where marquis did that?

VOTE: Metal Sonic

I'm confused about this freudian/scum slip.

[Green Crayons]

I strongly believe you strongly believe that.

[Green Crayons]

Buahahaha.

[Green Crayons]

I strongly believe you strongly believe that.

Then you must believe I am town.

Yes, that is what I believe my posts have indicated.

We just aren't on very agreeable terms.

[Green Crayons]

VOTE: NM

[Green Crayons]

That's ETL pretty sure.

[Green Crayons]

You think it's RC, SK, and ???

[Green Crayons]

A few reasons.

It looks like the lynch is SK or NM.

regarding NM:

- Bulge was replacement dodging. Not necessarily alignment indicative, given his IRL circumstances, but it's not something I can't ignore.
- I unvoted you because I credited your catchup. Replacing into a game and doing a catchup is the easiest way to look town, so I probably gave this more credit than appropriate. An accurate assessment of your play is pretty alignment neutrla.
- I think NM's flip will be helpful, regardless of your alignment.

regarding SK:

- I agree with ETL that SK's shitty play could very well come from scum. I just don't think scum, when faced with being a 1v1 lynch, would adopt the tactic that SK has done here: "yup I'm shitty lynch me I guess."
- I believe that backup IC claim.

Mainly because the real IC should claim now, so we can just go ahead and lynch SK-scum.

The claim also makes sense with the role cop, which is a real lame, useless role tbqh - except, for example, in situations like this. I've thought about the possibility that SK is actually a

scum

"backup IC", in the sense that there is no IC for him to backup - I don't know if that would be permitted by normal rules, but I also think it would go beyond negating the use of the role cop into being too much of a anti-town setup.

[Green Crayons]

The real IC should claim now, if he/she actually exists, so we can just go ahead and lynch SK-scum.*

[Green Crayons]

If there is an IC existing, there can't be two backup ICs.

[Green Crayons]

Which means SK would be lying.

Which means SK would be scum.

[Green Crayons]

Never have I ever heard of two backups for the same role existing in the same game.

I don't even think the mechanics work properly.

You kill the original role, and in its place two spring up simultaneously to replace it?

Even if the mechanics were to work, that's super powerful for town - especially something like IC. Having two backup ICs for a nonexistent IC role makes much more sense.

[Green Crayons]

That's not unreasonable.

[Green Crayons]

lol Froggy do I

VOTE: Evil Coyote

not liking the RC seems very sus

assuming ducks = scum

why didn't ducks-scum just hammer NM here?

[Green Crayons]

Okay hate the switch and I've played with lala town before, behind the goofy personality there was actually tangible thought processes and effort

VOTE: lalalasucks

this is probably the best argument for ducks-scum

just because ducks has been

so

goddamned distant/not playing this game

[Green Crayons]

UNVOTE: NM

[Green Crayons]

I have a preference of RC over ducks.

But I don't want to lynch RC without a claim.