NY 189 - Flower Viewing Festival [~fin~]

[Shazam]

VOTE: echo echo
I don't like caves.

[Shazam]

VOTE: BananaCucho
Feels the need to respond to every vote, like he's a little insecure about the fact that he's getting votes?

every vote against him*

Please don't start this game with yet another case of early game WIFOM when he's probably just trolling for reactions. You're already jumping at shadows and the game only just started, this isn't healthy mentally speaking for you to be so on edge.

In any case, it's pretty presumptuous for you to assume any motives from Banana's play with barely anything to go on.

I make bold votes like those this early for reactions like that ^^^^^^^

Would you prefer if we twiddle our thumbs joking around for a few more pages?

a) Your vote wasn't particularly "bold", it was just poorly supported.
b) Explain why the reaction is remotely interesting, or more importantly, how it makes him look scum or town.
c) What does your question have to do with anything? tn does not seem to me to be suggesting that we do nothing. He seems to be suggesting that you're too sure of things that you shouldn't be sure about this early. Like Banana being "insecure".

[Shazam]

Bold votes probably wasn't a great term but the point still stands!

VOTE: BananaCucho
Feels the need to respond to every vote, like he's a little insecure about the fact that he's getting votes?

BTW this is technically false since I didn't respond to the broken charmander vote

I have read the thread twice and can't for the life of me figure out what you're referring to here.

VOTE: Spiffeh

If you've read the thread twice, you know that my last post requires more than this from you in response. Don't just ignore my post and say your point stands.

was it a better vote?

why u do it?

Do I really need to explain it more? He scolds us and says "let's play mafia already" and I say "yeah, okay" and "start playing" by voting him

Feels pretty self explanatory I don't get what you don't understand.

Yeah, bad wagon here.

So are you saying that having any reason whatsoever discludes any vote ever from being rvs, despite the reason being obviously silly?

No, what sala has to say at this point in the game is not important in the slightest.

Actually it does.

Truth.

[Shazam]

a) Your vote wasn't particularly "bold", it was just poorly supported.b) Explain why the reaction is remotely interesting, or more importantly, how it makes him look scum or town.c) What does your question have to do with anything? tn does not seem to me to be suggesting that we do nothing. He seems to be suggesting that you're too sure of things that you shouldn't be sure about this early. Like Banana being "insecure".

a. Yeah I agree with that mostly because it was like page 2.
b. Like I said, the way he commented on each vote against him makes me think he's insecure and a little uncomfortable with receiving votes. I believed that to be scummier than everything else in the thread at that point.
c. I am pointing out something I noticed about his behavior that I believe to be scummy. That's how the game is played. I don't see what was so out of the ordinary that people are exploding over it lmao

The response to b and c makes no sense. b and c were about tn's post that you were pointing to in your post. You're answering b and c like we're talking about Banana, but we're talking about tn.

It's like you're failing to pick up on your own train of thought after people question you about it.

[Shazam]

At this point, Spiffeh is clearly town to me, because he's genuinely saying defensive things that make no sense. His reaction to everything said about him is so emotional that if he were scum he'd be toning it down. I could explain why his latest posts make no sense, but ultimately I don't think that helps anyone else.

I still dont have all the people I am not used to lined up in my head as individuals

@People

I have played with before.
Hi.

@people

I have only been stalking (in a not very creepy way)
Hi.

@everyone else?

How come you did not sign up for this game?

Axle plans everything. He claims in post 8 he has read you (by saying everyone else he hasn't read didn't sign up for the game). Now he claims in post 327 he doesn't have everyone lined up????????????

AXLE IS INFORMED, PEOPLE. He read ups on things!!! For him to play dumb here is :/

Axle is scum, y'all. He's trying to appease the masses for scum reading him early on here...

The people who piled on me early, did so with about the right amount of .... "Oh look there is a bonfire over here anyone want to jump on?".

He also knows his "if frogger was town" read on me is crap.

if Frog was town, and he felt town, he was smoking as he went by me.

honestly, I'd rather town sort me and axle today and call it a day.

VOTE: Axle

This looks like all spin to me. You act so sure that you'd like to 1v1 this guy, but the entirety of your case against him is putting what he says in whatever light you feel is best. I would have taken the first 2 quotes to mean nothing. I don't know what your point about him being "informed" is. The third quote is a pretty decent analysis of his wagon. I can't say I fully understand the fourth post, but "if frogger was town" is not a read on you, so saying he knows that's crap is rather ludicrous. In short, I think you've made a bad case, but you're acting like it's a good case because you want to lynch him for other reasons.

VOTE: Fro99er

[Shazam]

At this point, Spiffeh is clearly town to me, because he's genuinely saying defensive things that make no sense. His reaction to everything said about him is so emotional that if he were scum he'd be toning it down. I could explain why his latest posts make no sense, but ultimately I don't think that helps anyone else.

So you agree that your vote on me was atrocious?

No. But you're proving my point that you genuinely make no sense and don't understand words, which causes you to overreact. "Atrocious"? It had a clearly defined reason.

And please respond to this:

VOTE: Shazam
Call it OMGUS if you want but your vote and subsequent suspicion of me for not responding to you immediately and MISUNDERSTANDING your unclear request is terrible.

Also, you and tn need to stop saying writing things off as "emotional" when all I have done is respond to your shittastic reasoning.

Will post about other stuff later. Needed to get that off my chest now though.

What is there to respond to? Yeah, it's pretty much OMGUS. Yeah, I voted you so that you would respond to my actual points. Yeah you misunderstood my request. No, it wasn't unclear, since I referenced YOUR post, and what you were really doing was misunderstanding your own post. In points b and c I was talking about a "reaction" that you claimed to have gotten. The post I quoted of yours was talking about a reaction from a specific person. You took b and c to be about another person because you didn't understand your own context.

You've certainly responded to my reasoning. With anything worthwhile though? Anything that points out logical flaws? Not really. Just a bunch of genuine emotional flailing. So I think you're town.

[Shazam]

This looks like all spin to me. You act so sure that you'd like to 1v1 this guy, but the entirety of your case against him is putting what he says in whatever light you feel is best. I would have taken the first 2 quotes to mean nothing. I don't know what your point about him being "informed" is. The third quote is a pretty decent analysis of his wagon. I can't say I fully understand the fourth post, but "if frogger was town" is not a read on you, so saying he knows that's crap is rather ludicrous. In short, I think you've made a bad case, but you're acting like it's a good case because you want to lynch him for other reasons.

VOTE: Fro99er

Why do people scum read things they don't understand instead of requesting clarification to actually read someone's thought processes instead of just their words

I'm not scum reading something I don't understand. The thing I don't understand is the fourth quote from Frogger's post, which is a quote of someone else. I do not scumread that person, I scumread Frogger, who I understand.

[Shazam]

However please explain why or how you know nothing significant has happened yet or what that means.

It means that I am still null reading everyone thus for me nothing significant has happened.

This is BS

Mafia wouldn't be so blatantly hypocritical.

Wow 7 votes 24 hrs into the game with no counterwagon....wonder what that means lol

Also this. I Am Innocent seems innocent to me. The wagon sucks because it has no good reasoning behind it, and pressuring someone so content-less is pointless.

[Shazam]

@mod

Salamence20 (1) - MarioManiac4, tn5421

Typo, right?

Would you like to start a counter wagon on Salamance? I could entertain that.

Really? I did start a counter wagon on Fro99er. Don't pretend like Salamence and IaI are exclusive alternatives. I have no read on Salamence.

[Shazam]

@mod

Salamence20 (1) - MarioManiac4, tn5421

Typo, right?

Would you like to start a counter wagon on Salamance? I could entertain that.

Really? I did start a counter wagon on Fro99er. Don't pretend like Salamence and IaI are exclusive alternatives. I have no read on Salamence.

I fail to see why you would think that's what I was implying. There's obviously other options than just those two, I was just putting forth of them.

I would think that was what you were implying because that would be the only thing relevant to my statement about IaI. If you were being relevant, you were pointing out that my being against the IaI wagon should have something to do with me voting Salamence (which I disagreed with). If it was irrelevant, fine, but you should be able to see why I thought what I did.

Usually D1 wagons with out counterwagons are townie ones.

Your wagon didn't really gain any momentum until recently so I believe this statement is being made too early. Also do you have examples of games where Day 1 wagons without a counterwagon resulted in mislynches?

This is an easy place to go into detail on why a lot of what you've said this game doesn't make sense.
1) He just now had 7 votes. How can any statement about his wagon be "too early"? Any "later" in the wagon, and he might be dead.
2) What does timing have to do with his point? His point is that he had a decent sized wagon with no real counter-wagon. Who cares when it happened?
3) Asking for examples is bad for two reasons: a) One can come up with examples for just about anything. It doesn't mean that whatever you're coming up with examples for is common. b) You ought to be able to accept something on principle. If it logically makes sense that a wagon with no counter-wagon is generally town, then that should be accepted as a fair argument with or without examples.

Hopefully this explanation helps you understand your earlier conflict with me. I don't wish to do what I just did with every post of yours that I find interesting, so I may just use the shorthand of "this doesn't make sense" or "overly emotional reaction" or some such thing as it applies.

[Shazam]

shazam, who were the scum on my wagon?

Hard to say. Ricastle, pisskop, Salamence20, Sakura Hana, and Shiro are the ones I see as more likely than the others. You can probably throw out Ricastle for being the first on there (usually scum join an unopposed wagon later). And I'd throw out Salamence because I find him unreadable at this stage. So pisskop, Sakura Hana, Shiro? I'd guess at least one of them is scum. Maybe I should check out their iso's.

[Shazam]

shazam, who were the scum on my wagon?

Hard to say. Ricastle, pisskop, Salamence20, Sakura Hana, and Shiro are the ones I see as more likely than the others. You can probably throw out Ricastle for being the first on there (usually scum join an unopposed wagon later). And I'd throw out Salamence because I find him unreadable at this stage. So pisskop, Sakura Hana, Shiro? I'd guess at least one of them is scum. Maybe I should check out their iso's.

Took a look at the parts where they voted IaI. I'd throw pisskop out because he does a weird thing where he votes him when he's already voting him, and seems to be genuinely outraged about IaI claiming to know him. Sakura Hana and Shiro both were kinda like "ok, guess I'll vote this dude". One of them is probably scum. No idea which one yet though.

[Shazam]

Hint hint: it is the one who has given out almost no reads vs the one who has given out all reads...

If this is what you think, put your vote where your mouth is. I don't necessarily agree with this, though. I've definitely seen scum give out all their "reads" and town active lurk.

[Shazam]

PS - I think I caught spiffel in a lie, so that's where my vote is

Have you read my stuff about spiffeh? I don't think catching him in a self-contradiction (which is what it is, not a lie) is a difficult thing to do. In his case, I'm inclined to think it's not alignment-indicative.

But do the reads make sense and align more or less with your reads from a town mindset is the question

Yeah, that's the question. Answering the question is the hard part. If I knew the answer I'd already be voting her or Shiro.

1) I meant that the wagon has occurred too recently for people to expect there to have been a push back. Like he's only had the most lynch votes for less than 12 hours.
2) Since it happened so recently scum might not have had a chance to respond to it and start up a counter wagon, so the statement is a little premature.
3) Ok

Idk you keep making mountains out of molehills with me.

12 hours is quite a while in this game, and I think quite a few of the players in the game have posted during that time. A counter wagon definitely could have started imo. Aaaand there you go being emotional again. If you expect me to overlook something you say for being "a molehill", maybe you shouldn't post it.

[Shazam]

@Shazzam

I like fair bit about your 431
What I am missing is why that made you think Frogger got a scum PM.
I would like that include how 361 (and the stuff around there) fits into that.

I actually say in 431 why it made me think Frogger is scum.
I do not find 361 to be relevant at all. Maybe you can tell me why you think it is.

@Shazam We can agree to disagree then about the wagon thing. I think what I'm failing to grasp is what your motivation is to continue posting elaborate responses to things solely posted by me that aren't addressed to you.

Like what do you as village gain from doing that? It was fine when you were scumreading and voting for me earlier, but now that you have me as a townread (unless that has changed?) I don't see the point of continuing it. So why?

As scum I have waged endless back-and-forth arguments to appear present and contributing, and the way you are perpetuating this thing between us makes me think you're doing something similar.

This is the first time I have ever read someone suggesting that I ought to have tunnel vision on my scumreads. Do you honestly believe that my interaction with other people has not been enough to appear present and contributing? You think that I need to interact with you to look that way? This is not to mention the obvious fact that what you do as scum may not be what I do as scum.

[Shazam]

If you're doing it to continue interacting with me, what are the results? What is being accomplished?

The results are the same results from any two people discussing content. It ought to help both of us develop reads on each other, and help the rest of the people in the game develop reads on us.

In short, I think you've made a bad case, but you're acting like it's a good case because you want to lynch him for other reasons.

I actually say in 431 why it made me think Frogger is scum.

Why is it bad case a scum made with intent and not just a bad case?

"Lynch him for other reasons" is an open ended statement I don't know what you think the other reasons might be.

I think everyone else understood this without explanation. I highlight in 431 that he is much too sure that you are scum for things that do not indicate scum in any way. He is so sure he wants to 1v1 you for the day. That is why it looks like he has reasons he's not telling us for wanting to lynch you, and the obvious implication is that he's scum, because it's Day 1. Only scum have undisclosed motives Day 1.

Man this game goes fast

Shazam I wanted to vote a lurker IAI was the only viable lurker for voting.

I like the way you think though. I mean I think it is wrong but still liking the thought process

Interesting. So if you like the thought process, do you think you should vote Sakura Hana?

How he PoE who the potential scum in IAI wagon might be

Seemed legit. He is wrong about me and I think he is potentially wrong about Sakura but that doesn't negate that it seemed townie, I find it more likely that scum would just blankly blame someone in the middle or end

It is fakeable though so no strong feelings just an observation but yea

Actually, after reading this I have the exact same question. You say you like my thought process, but then even though it leads me to two people, you're saying you think both are town? And "potentially wrong" is weak sauce btw. Of course it's potentially wrong, but the question is whether it's likely to be right.

I am going to assume 673 is an addendum to 672 and "their" refers to IAI.
k.

and yes i am not highly impressed by the theory that scum have to form counter wagons (in 12 hrs or less)(work commitments etc don't count for some reason?) or else the current wagon cant be on scum....
because once that is the default theory the obvious way to stall wagon on scum is do nothing.

You can always bring in a WIFOM argument, but I tend to lean towards no WIFOM being involved. Scum doing the opposite of what would logically be considered to be in their best interests is rare, especially towards the start of a game. And as I've stated before, 12 hours or less seems to have been doable, but it didn't happen. By my count, 6 people posted who were never on the IaI wagon, while the wagon was building from 3 to 7 votes. That is half of the players in the game who were never on the IaI wagon. Seems like enough to me, but it didn't happen.

[Shazam]

Uh ok, but you are going to explain to me how scum can have motives to want to lynch one person in particular D1. (especially with a bad case and day chat.)

Nope i am going to need actual examples of possible motives scum can have to 1v1 me with case you say has "things that do not indicate scum in any way".

Really? You can't think of any reasons why scum would want to lynch someone they think they can make a good case on?
My entire point is that he had a crap case, but HE DIDN'T THINK SO. The 1v1 is posturing of course imo. He's willing to 1v1 today, but when tomorrow rolls around, he will still defend himself.

I am mainly making sure that

12 hours is quite a while in this game, and I think quite a few of the players in the game have posted during that time. A counter wagon definitely could have started imo.

That it COULD have started does not mean anything certain.
and that you sliding (getting dragged) over that line, here 606 when prompted to start analysing the wagon as if it is definitely on towny gave me a nervous tick.

This is a good point. It did take IaI asking me for me to realize that actually it was not impossible to find which of the people on his wagon were likely scum. Originally, looking at the 7 names, I didn't think I was going to be able to narrow it down to 2. But since he asked me, I tried it and it seemed to yield something.

[Shazam]

I had some unexpected business today. I will try to read the 10+ pages and make a post this afternoon/evening.

[Shazam]

Ok, so as far as wagons, the IaI wagon still sucks, though with the contradiction Spiffeh caught, IaI has been shown at the very least to be incapable of thinking abstractly. Apparently some things are towntells only when they have to do with him.

The Davsto wagon always sucked, I have no idea why anyone voted him in the first place, and his claim seemed genuine and came with a pro-town attitude.

The Mario wagon is pretty decent, he's active lurking while pretending not to be active lurking. And then when he's called on something he did say, he claims it wasn't serious. Since my vote's not really doing anything,
VOTE: Mario

[Shazam]

Should be L-1. At least that's what I thought I was doing.

[Shazam]

Reaction test completed!
Downloading results!

Read davsti's ISO and not convinced he's scum
Although the vote on banana and ne in one post felt weird

VOTE: davsto

I get a townvibe from pretty much everyone except this guy and the post where he voted me anf banana felt fake

Quite a change, don't you think? From a "not convinced he's scum" to what is essentially an OMGUS vote?

Not convinced means not a full scum read. Only you and I A I were competing wagons.
Also when did you care about claims Ika

How exactly was making a blatantly bad push on Davsto a reaction test?

no. not explaining my reads was the reaction test.
I had to vote dabs to basically to stop me, town, from getting lynched.

This is some next level flailing. He's made a bunch of posts since getting a big wagon on him, and they have all been self-preservation posts. None of them shows a mindset of trying to put forth evidence that someone else is scum. The only thing he cares about is living. Seems like a scum mindset to me.

[Shazam]

I'm here and reading.

[Shazam]

Basically, in order from most to least suspicious on that mario wagon is Salamence, Ricastle, Spiffeh, pisskop, shiro. Shazam & Shiro are good possibilities but I don't really have a good read on either of them.

This is after the nearly confirmed vig claim from Salamence. I also don't think Ricastle or Spiffeh is scum. Since the three "most suspicious" people on the wagon are my townreads, I prefer tn to the other wagons right now. IaI is still town.

Seriously what reason does tn have to jump from Mario to Salamence, who obviously was not getting lynched, other than to distance himself from the mislynch wagon?

This is actually a good point.

VOTE: tn5421

VOTE: TN

Any objections to an Areo shot?

I object. Please shoot Davesto.

After this post, I'd prefer if he shot you. Davsto did the same thing Slandaar and I did, except he did it earlier (joined the Mario wagon without having been on the IaI wagon). In my eyes, this makes him town because he genuinely believed Mario was scum, and didn't believe IaI was scum, which to me looks like an evidence-based vote pattern.

[Shazam]

Ricastle, Tn, Banana today I thinks.

Maybe Mario.

This was Slander's last reads list. Two of the four flipped town, perhaps the other two needs a look at? In particular, I share the scumread that is Tn.

Alright then, I'll go for someone else.

VOTE: Banana
Because that unvote was weird. Jumping off the (already falling apart) main wagon makes Spiffeh less scummy, and completely nullifies all your reads on him enough to change your vote?

Also, FoS at MarioManiac for the vote on Sala. It seems like an attempt to counterwagon but with an RVS feel so he can go "guys it was a joke".

Actually, fuckit, I think Mario is worse.
VOTE: MarioManiac

I hate this post.

Why is scum shiro coming up with such bad logic unless she's trying to protect someone?

unvote salamance
Vote davsto

If Davesto is scum, this makes IaI town.

I want to lynch Davesto still.

On the other hand, I've read Mario's last 5 posts and am convinced that he's scum.

VOTE: MarioManiac4

I don't like this post. Boo. Like, what the heck?

VOTE: TN

VOTE: Salamence20

Using self-meta to try to clear yourself is scummy as fuck and I'm done with putting up with your shit.

VOTE: TN

~~~
By the way, ika's obviously town. I'll defend him to the grave.
~~~

/end of Day 1.


Well, that was shite.

VOTE: TN

This post really stuck out to me, so I edited it to leave the parts I consider relevant. Look at how bad his case on tn is. "I don't like this post" is the best he can do here. And he has the same response to Davsto, but doesn't vote Davsto. Since I'm convinced Davsto is town, this makes Echo Echo look really bad to me. It looks like busing for towncred plus a setup for a mislynch later. Or it could be a townie who feels like he doesn't have to give reasons for things, and ends up making two bad cases, one of which I happen to concur with and the other of which I don't. The reason I lean towards the former is that, reading Echo's iso, he seems capable of being more reasonable than this. But it's something for people to keep an eye on either way.

[Shazam]

@mod V/LA the 7th and maybe the 8th.

[Shazam]

2) Sakura - likely Mason


AND

pisskip, spiffeh, and ricastle. At least 1 (33% chance) or 2 (67% chance) has to be scum, as uncoincidentally, these 7 players also ended up on Mario's wagon.

The two that did not end up on Dav's wagon....spiffeh and ricastle.

I stand by what I said earlier, I think these are the best two candidates for lynch today. Both started the day pushing town wagons (mine and Shiro), both had posts D1 saying "if mario flips town, look at so and so", both were on two town wagons D1, and avoided the 3rd major wagon of D1.

Did you explain the Sakura read somewhere? I couldn't find it skimming your iso. Also, if you thought she was a mason, why would you out it? In my opinion, she has as good a chance of being scum as those other three you mentioned. As I've stated before, I don't think it's spiffeh. If you feel strongly about Ricastle, I could possibly be convinced to vote him. But I would need something else besides this PoE. Same goes for pisskop.

EDIT: And now Sakura has explicitly said she's not a mason, which I think is automatically true.

[Shazam]

Btw Shazam, Echox2 started this whole tn thing, spiffeh just followed along with his own case, while Echo's case sux, if he hadn't mentioned anything like that, i dont think ppl would have been motivated to take a 2nd look at tn at the momment.
If tn is scum why is Echo's case busing? He had no need to do something like that.

Actually, you're right. I had misunderstood the interaction between Echo and Spiffeh at the start of the wagon. Echo did in fact motivate others to make a more complete case than he himself did. Looks more townie than it did before. I still don't like his posts since then.

Not sure if I believe the claim or not but IaI shouldn't be vigged. If he's actually town he'll most likely be dealt with sooner or later.

What does this mean? Are you really throwing out the WIFOMy expectation that scum will kill him if he's town?

[Shazam]

After checking some things I also don't think Sakura is the scum on my and Mario's wagon either.

That leaves prob 2 or 3 in (ricastle, pisskop, salamance, and spiffeh)

For shazaam

This isn't evidence, but even if it was, mason is awfully specific. I'm thinking the most likely scum on your wagon are Sakura and pisskop, followed by Ricastle, then Spiffeh. And I think it's only one (just maybe two) of them, because of my other reads.

[Shazam]

@Shazam: Why do you think i am scum, i don't think you've ever explained that.

Post 611 (iso 11) plus the fact that IaI basically cleared Shiro.

[Shazam]

@Shazam: Why do you think i am scum, i don't think you've ever explained that.

Post 611 (iso 11) plus the fact that IaI basically cleared Shiro.

That doesn't answer my question, if you think it does it implies that:
1) My vote there was so scummy that you would question why you aren't voting me.
2) Your stance on me hasn't changed within about 1000 posts that have happened in the thread, in which case one would think you'd have more stuff about me to comment on.

1) Your vote there is very scummy, not just because you voted a townie but because you are by a fair margin (imo, of course) the most viable scum to have done so. This does not automatically mean I should vote you right now, though. I see a greater benefit to town from pursuing something else right now. I wonder why you have such a problem with this.

2) Why are you so concerned with how much I comment on you? No, my stance on you has not changed significantly in that time EXCEPT for the very thing I pointed out in the post that started this conversation. There is a good reason for this. Anyone who has been following your posts will know what I'm talking about. Your posts have so little individual content that it's hard to find anything major in a single post. Maybe I'll iso you soon to piece things together, but I hate the confirmation bias that comes from doing something like that.

My reads have been horrible this game

Unvote

>.><.<

You could change this by voting tn.

[Shazam]

1) Your vote there is very scummy, not just because you voted a townie

So town is never wrong?

but because you are by a fair margin (imo, of course) the most viable scum to have done so. This does not automatically mean I should vote you right now, though. I see a greater benefit to town from pursuing something else right now. I wonder why you have such a problem with this.

Why didn't you push me back then then?

This does not automatically mean I should vote you right now, though. I see a greater benefit to town from pursuing something else right now. I wonder why you have such a problem with this.

This still doesn't explain why you didn't vote me back then, nor have been pushing me at all.

2) Why are you so concerned with how much I comment on you? No, my stance on you has not changed significantly in that time EXCEPT for the very thing I pointed out in the post that started this conversation. There is a good reason for this. Anyone who has been following your posts will know what I'm talking about. Your posts have so little individual content that it's hard to find anything major in a single post. Maybe I'll iso you soon to piece things together, but I hate the confirmation bias that comes from doing something like that.

It's not whether im concerned with how much you comment on me. It's whether your read on me is fake or not, because if it isn't you shouldn't have much issue backing it up.

Your first question is irrelevant. Being part of a wagon on a nearly-confirmed townie is scummy. The fact that some town did this does not serve as a counterpoint.

Your second question and third statement have been answered already. You are being dense, and it seems purposeful. I didn't vote you back then because I was less sure about the others on the wagon. I've responded in two ways to the fact that I haven't pushed you very hard. Please just wait your turn.

[Shazam]

stych? stiek. sticke. w.e

Shtick?


Since little of interest has been said in the last 12+ hours, and tn's lynch is progressing, I decided to take Sakura up on her offer and look at her iso.

Btw guys, shorter deadlines doesn't mean "let's deadline scramble every day phase".
It means we have to start thinking of compromising sooner JUST IN CASE whoever we want to lynch is driven to L-1 and then suddenly we don't want to lynch him anymore so we have enough time to move elsewhere.
This is probably ironic considering i didnt vote IaI and voted Mario instead, but i'm not even sure where the votes currently stand wrt both and I wanna know who else would be on board about IaI.
Basically I want everyone to say who they would be ok with wagoning as of >Right now< so we dont end up with half the people on 1 wagon and half the people on the other wagon arguing about why their wagon is the best one. Also if you think any of the current possible wagons is a bad idea, please state why.

Encourages everyone to use less than the whole day and make less than optimal choices as long as someone gets lynched. Recognizes that trying to act like a townie has led her to do something different from this, but wants everyone else to act less townie than her.

I see Ika replaced in, that's good, it's someone I know how to read, so far this looks like town ika.
Also regardless be careful Ika has an itchy hammer finger on anything that's at L-1 so L-2 should be considered L-1

@Davsto: In general i dislike making long posts unless i'm making a case or replying to someone in quotes, so you'll have to deal with my shorter posts sorry!

Makes a "look how townie I am" warning post that once again contradicts the mindset she wants everyone else to have of "make sure someone gets lynched even if you have to compromise".

This is all I could find of substance from the time Sakura referenced as 1000 posts. Sadly her posting style does not lend itself well to my scumhunting techniques, but this coupled with the IaI wagon analysis and "clearing" of Shiro is enough for me to call her scum.

[Shazam]

Hotel-Wifi-Short-Post:

I like the Flubbernugget wagon because he was the only one who was around when the tn wagon was happening and opposed it to any extent without providing any alternative. However, it should be noted that Fro99er also was not seemingly interested in a tn wagon, though he wasn't around to react to it when it did happen. Yeah, he implies he would have been in favor of it based on his early scumread of tn, but if that was persuasive, he'd be voting Axle right now, the other guy he called confscum early on. I'm unconvinced, and would be just as happy with a Fro99er lynch today. I'm also still scumreading Sakura, and her vote of tn does fit into a late bus framework for me.

But I'm ok with lynching Flubber today. I'm not going to pile my vote on, because I'm going to be gone all day and an ika hammer would limit our discussion today.

[Shazam]

I am on my phone, so no long post.
Ugh can't believe shirt died.
I went through trouble of reading everything and had shirk as scum >.>

No. This is not for real.
VOTE: Firebringer

[Shazam]

I am ACTUALLY caught up and found little of interest since I last had reliable internet. I should be active the rest of this game, though my schedule will be quite different.

[Shazam]

Me, Sala, Fire, Davsto, Axle, and ika are all town. That leaves the 3 scum in Spiffeh, Fro99er, pisskop, Sakura, Shazam, and Echo. With the assumption that Fire is town we can nail Piss as scum right off the bat. Echo is looking less and less likely the more scum wagons he starts out of nowhere but you never know. Town for now though. Spiffeh looks pretty genuine and towny, too, and that push on tn was good, which leaves Fro99er, Sakura and Shazam. Take two out of those and you have the most likely team.

imo, it's piss/Fro99er/Shazam. Let's do this.

You realize that I've pushed Sakura, Fro99er, and tn, right? And still do scumread Fro99er and Sakura?

Between pisskop and Firebringer, I think it's smarter to go by what they've actually posted than setup speculation about their roles. To me, Firebringer has been more self-contradictory.

[Shazam]

\

This makes me want to vote Davsto again. The end of D1 wagon on him was likely all town (two confirm towns, me I know I'm town, and Echo is prob town?). His wagon fizzled pretty quickly and Mario got flashwagoned. Should look at who went off Davsto and onto Mario earlier D1. I need to check tn/davsto interactions as well to confirm my thoughts.

This is so bad. Four town players voting the same player does not make the latter scum. It doesn't even have a particular tendency towards that, because it happens all the time. Also, you appear to be outright admitting that you have no intention of reading Davsto objectively. You're reading his interactions only to confirm your thoughts.

PEDIT:

So can anyone explain why, as scum, I wouldn't have just hammered the shit out of pisskop?

Towncred

Seriously? You will do anything to say Davsto is scum.

[Shazam]

Seriously? You will do anything to say Davsto is scum.

And you'll do anything to say I'm scum. So we're even.

2313 said nothing about you being scum or about scumtells from you at all. Far too defensive.

VOTE: Fro99er

you appear to be outright admitting that you have no intention of reading Davsto objectively.

So why would I admit that if I was scum? Serious question. Think about that for a second.

Why are you pointing this out yourself? Serious question. Think about that for a second.

As soon as you say that putting things a certain way makes you town, you reveal that you could have done it just to towntell as scum.

[Shazam]

I like Sala's VCA, personally. I still want to lynch Fro99er, Fire, or Sakura, but pisskop and Axle are also acceptable due to the VCA. imo, nobody outside of those five should be lynched today.

[Shazam]

I like Sala's VCA, personally. I still want to lynch Fro99er, Fire, or Sakura, but pisskop and Axle are also acceptable due to the VCA. imo, nobody outside of those five should be lynched today.

Look at the way TN bitched about me townreading frogger.

I doubt that was bussing there

I don't see this anywhere, but even if I did, scum saying "don't townread x" where x is his buddy is not that strange.

[Shazam]

I'm here, and I've been reading, but nothing has been terribly interesting aside from the exchange that caused two people to replace out. I'm more against a pisskop-slot lynch than I was before. I'm hoping we can agree on axle, Frog, Hana, or Fire today. Mostly VCA on axle, and I've been talking about my scumreads on the other three as we've gone along. So maybe the rest of you could just say which of those four you're willing to lynch?

[Shazam]

Mostly VCA on axle,

So as you have said that several times and

IIRC it contradicts your reads based on content

please explain.

Nope rereading no i dont know that it does, but explain anyway please.

Salamence's 2457 http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p7216421 demonstrates that your voting pattern is very scummy. You have voted my townreads and did not vote the flipped scum, at times simultaneously.

[Shazam]

still missing details

You have voted my townreads

So have you coloured in Dave as green? (as a strong town read?)

and you think right in the middle of driving on my scum read IaI (yeah he was town but at the time i was pressing him to find out)
right in the middle of me as scum doing that...

I turn on tn like this 1395 ?? When he lends me support?


Here was the VCA, when I got back on line and found my IaI read was wrong. (the day was about done...)

tn5421 (7) - Echo Echo, Spiffeh, Salamence20, Davsto, Shazam, Ricastle, Sakura Hana
Davsto (2) - pisskop, AxleGreaser

So I followed up my Dave read.

Please explain what part of 1637 (and associated posts) you find to be unreasonable?

Yes, I strongly townread Davsto, as I have been indicating most of this game.

Regarding "turning on tn" I don't see that as a very strong attack. It's basically just a question of clarification. I think what's more interesting here is that you have seemingly filed this away as proof that you and tn aren't scum together. It leads me to wonder why you would remember such a thing specifically.

As regards 1637, I don't find it unreasonable, I find it unpersuasive and not very genuine. I don't buy him as scum from that post, and I don't buy you thinking he's scum from that post.

nd his claim seemed genuine and came with a pro-town attitude.

what claim?

Honestly, I ain't a power role or anything so if lynching me is what it takes for you to ignore me and concentrate on the actual scum in this game then it's fine by me.

So you read his reluctance to actually do stuff as?

He seems to me to be genuinely claiming out of frustration with his lack of influence in the game and undue "scumhunting" attention he is getting. Further, he is willing to die to help the town out. Considering the context and the whole body of his posts, this seems in character to me.

[Shazam]

2740's first line is fake as fuck. Davsto+ Shazam? Would explain that weird ass town read from Shazam onto Davsto that I don't think he explained

I did explain it. At least twice iirc. Davsto and me make no sense as a team. Why would I give said "weird ass town read" if I was his partner? That would be colossally stupid. I have not stated an unconfirmed townread on any other player as strongly as I have with Davsto.

VOTE: Fro99er
Could be playing to his wincon as scum, because he might be thinking he can get people off him by self-voting. Can't really be playing to his wincon as town, since him flipping town would not make me scum in any way, but that's why he's willing to kill himself.

[Shazam]

@Shazam
You have thought Fro99er was scum for a while now.
Who besides Davsto (aka anyone but Davsto) do you think is also scum?
Why?

Sakura Hana. See my iso #26-32. Other than that, you're probably the next on the list for me, for reasons I've explained.

[Shazam]

VOTE: BananaCucho
Feels the need to respond to every vote, like he's a little insecure about the fact that he's getting votes?

every vote against him*

Please don't start this game with yet another case of early game WIFOM when he's probably just trolling for reactions. You're already jumping at shadows and the game only just started, this isn't healthy mentally speaking for you to be so on edge.

In any case, it's pretty presumptuous for you to assume any motives from Banana's play with barely anything to go on.

I make bold votes like those this early for reactions like that ^^^^^^^

Would you prefer if we twiddle our thumbs joking around for a few more pages?

a) Your vote wasn't particularly "bold", it was just poorly supported.
b) Explain why the reaction is remotely interesting, or more importantly, how it makes him look scum or town.
c) What does your question have to do with anything? tn does not seem to me to be suggesting that we do nothing. He seems to be suggesting that you're too sure of things that you shouldn't be sure about this early. Like Banana being "insecure".

This is basically Shazam's scum claim.

Remember Fire wanted Spiffeh dead and Shazam pushes Spiffeh and defends tn here

This is one of the worst descriptions of a post I've ever read. First off, if everything you said was true, it wouldn't make me scum. Second, if it made me scum, I wouldn't be claiming scum there, you would have just done some scumhunting. But of course we must come to the most important point, which is that what you are saying is just not true. I did not really push Spiffeh in a significant way. I pressured him until I got a response, at which point (and since which point) I have called Spiffeh town. tn pushing someone that I sorta-kinda pushed doesn't make me scum in any way. Further, I am not defending tn in that post, but rather calling Spiffeh on something that doesn't make sense to me and trying to get clarification. I really don't think you believe what you said here.


@Axle
You're right, Sakura's not scum with this scumbag. His self-vote didn't deflect much suspicion, so he removed it. The above was a clear confirmation-biased attempt to find anything he could to connect me to tn and Fire. Classic OMGUS flailing.

PEDIT:
Sorta ninja'd.

[Shazam]

My reads are obviously static because I currently don't have time for this game. What I have said is mostly solid. What I haven't said is because I don't have time. I think my wagon is clearly scum driven because Echo's posts clearly demonstrate that I am town. More specifically, VT. Lynch me while I'm catching up if you want to, I'm not going to be fully caught up until Saturday. Just make sure to lynch Fro99er tomorrow.

[Shazam]

^ Wrong

I really don't think Shazam is scum but I need to read the last few pages.

Why did we drop the suspicion on the pisskop slot? That is still my biggest scum read. Fro99er you literally agreed with my reasoning earlier when/why did that change?

If I was scum and Shazam town, why wouldn't I hammer him like right now? WIFOM and whatevet, but any day left not lynched from me would be a win.

This very question is so scummy that the point it's trying to make pales in comparison. If indeed there are two scum left as some think from Firebringer's posts, we're not terribly close to LyLo and you would need all the town points you could get.

I'd actually prefer a Dav lynch over a Bear one now after his really scummy play this day but I am willing to compromise.

Why do my townreads always vote my townreads? Your case on Davsto is really more like an argument with him. What makes you willing to compromise on Bearbert out of curiosity?

That's all I've got time for tonight, but I will hopefully get around to answering Axle's questions (again?) eventually.

[Shazam]

Who besides Davsto (aka anyone but Davsto) do you think is also scum

?

Why

?[/size]

To be clear, I do not think Davsto is scum, as I have said many times (just because the question is misleading). My scumlist right now is Fro99er and Bearbert, which I don't think is mutually exclusive because Fro99er's vote of Bearbert is consistent with seeing which way the wind is blowing and bussing without much of a pro-town reason. Also this:

I'm a big fan of distancing so I know what that is. But again, I'm not defending frogger based on those things anymore.

I've explained a bunch of times why I think Fro99er is scum, I won't go back over that. He has continued to be opportunistic and to vote in such a way that he never gets blamed for the outcome of the situation. Bearbert's recent posts are what make me think he could very well be scum.

And Shazam hasn't done anything town. So I hate how the wagon was derailed(but I'd only look at that after a Shazam scum flip). The wagons on me, Davsto or frogger kinda died because we did something considered town(not sure what in my case). Or at leasy reasonably so. Shazsm comes, claims he's obv inno and does nothing aftrr that. How can anybody townread him?

He should know from my posts that I haven't had much time to say anything, but more importantly, I HAVE done something in my posts in the last couple days, few though they may be. I'm not going to bother supporting that, anyone can read my last few posts and see that they each have more actual content than 5 of Bearbert's posts. This looks like scum frustrated my lynch didn't go through. If he was town, he would either respect the fact that a bunch of townies unvoted me, or say that multiple scum unvoted me and make it clear who he thinks they are.

Shazsm comes, claims he's obv inno and does nothing aftrr that. How can anybody townread him?

Horse hockey.

You know why I drafted to doubt Shazam scum, and it's not what you mention above. You are intentionally being "oblivious", scumbag.

I forgot about you there. Yes, obviously you explained the reason. I don't agree with it much, but yes, I know it

I see Fro99er thinks my slot is scum, can I get reasons why on that?

Because that's what your PM says.

About firebringer, I mentioned those two posts from frogger. Immediatly after lynching tn, he went hard after firebringer. The fact that he relaxed there after that(which is where the weird interaction came from) doesn't makr my point that he went after firebringer false. Obviously, it makes it a lot weaker, but I still didn't have faulty recollection or anything

And then in these two posts he admits he was wrong about his arguments, since he really has no choice, but he doesn't change his conclusions. It appears that he thinks the facts are irrelevant to the actions he should be taking.

[Shazam]

Ok. Any VCA without context is meaningless, VCA should be a helping tool not the main one IMO.
Umm, your VCA has Shazam as scum, right? Why not vote there?

Unbelievable. This demonstrates that not only have you not read Echo's VCA, but you haven't followed my votes. But let me guess: once again, your conclusion (that I am scum somehow, some way) has not changed.
VOTE: BearbertD
I'm more confident that you were a scum on my wagon than I am about Fro99er at this point.

[Shazam]

If Bearbert flips town Shazam seems pretty sus knowing I'll be the next mislynch. L-1 knowing Ricastle will hammer knowing the next lynch is lined up...

I'll probably be the next lynch though if Bear flips town and we'll lose.

I wouldn't know you'd be the next mislynch. Even if I was scum I wouldn't know you'd be the next lynch. But you're also assuming I know you're a mislynch and then calling me suspect because of it. That's not a logical argument.

Secondly, I'm willing to say right now that yes, I would tend to think you were Bearbert's partner since he has been suspiciously unwilling to go with reason and get off my wagon. That has kept him off of yours. And your vote of him I have already called out as consistent with a bus. But if he flipped scum and then you flipped town, and I was pushing your wagon for no good reason, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone that I was scum? That's not going to happen because I'm not scum, but if it did I would think you'd be happy to make that trade.

Finally, why on earth would you get lynched next if Bear flipped town? I would be very much against your lynch if he flipped town.

[Shazam]

There's no way Bear is my hypothetical scumbuddy dude. If he flips town, how does that make me town?

I read his flip to me being town from scum reading me earlier as scum motivated by him since he knew I would be under fire today and it would be a good way to get towncred by letting everyone else push through my mislynch.

But if he flipped scum and then you flipped town, and I was pushing your wagon for no good reason, wouldn't it be obvious to everyone that I was scum? That's not going to happen because I'm not scum, but if it did I would think you'd be happy to make that trade.

his flip isn't going to change my role PM. I'm town so if he flips town, you are my suspect and if he flips scum I'm still town. If you drive through my mislynch tomorrow after I get Bearbert lynched here, you're either scum or anti-town thinking I'm somehow scum who bussed my whole team if Fire's scumslip is right.

These posts show an inability to see things from my perspective. If he flips town, it makes you town because Bearbert was reluctant to vote you even to save himself. It would mean flipped town genuinely believed you were town. Secondly I believe him flipping scum increases your chance of being scum, so him flipping town must by necessity decrease your chance of being scum. It is obvious that his flip doesn't change your role PM. It just changes what I think your role PM is, since I don't know for sure.

Hey man, if you go down as town, you have my word I'm vote parking on Shaz tomorrow.

At this point if I flip off you and Shaz flips town it'll be even more "evidence" that I'm your "buddy"

This changes my view a little though. It's not a very pro-town attitude to pre-determine your voting patterns. You would be justified in thinking I was more likely to be scum if I helped to lynch a townie. But saying you will vote park is never a good idea.

[Shazam]

@ Davsto
I explained the Spiffeh read swing, so saying it's scummy is just saying that someone's views can't change for any reason ever. Unless you want to actually rebut the reasoning, but it seems pretty clear, and I think most here agree with it.
Voting MarioManiac for something I wouldn't vote Spiffeh for is not scummy either, nobody votes all people for the exact same reasons. That's what meta is about, and it can be established in a few posts sometimes.
Saying I've advocated for a no-lynch is utterly ludicrous.

You've clearly pre-determined that I'm scum before making your vote-post so you really shouldn't have bothered slapping together such a ridiculous case. There is nothing but confirmation bias in there.



VOTE: Fro99er
Yeah, nobody else is going to lynch him, but he's the scum here. For some reason, all it took was a couple people saying "if Bearbert flips town, Shazam is scum" for people to turn against me without a thought, despite the fact that I pushed two scum wagons. If I say "when I flip town, lynch Fro99er", will that one actually happen?

[Shazam]

UNVOTE:
Yes, I needed to be reminded of that. I got really angry at Davsto and got distracted, but I do still think that the flip outweighs my read on Fro99er. I'm not done responding to Davsto though.

[Shazam]

Wait, is this the only reasoning he ever gives to jump on the tn wagon? Looks like a bus to me.

The post you attempted to quote had more reasoning in it for the tn vote than you quoted. Why did you feel the need to edit some of it out, I wonder? This really makes me question my townread on you. Again, it's trying too hard to fit me into the frame of being scum. I admit that I've done some voting that looked scummy, but you really should be focusing on that if you want to vote me. Instead, you're trying to find something scummy anywhere you can.

[Shazam]

What does anger at Davsto have ANYTHING to do with your feelings about Fro99er?

Did you notice the word distracted? That's like asking what the screaming kid right next to you has to do with the thesis you're trying to write.

[Shazam]

Also, I'm pretty sure Fro99er is town, so I feel my worry yesterday that Me v Fro99er v Bearbert was TvTvT and that scum was just letting it sail past seems about right.

This is quite possibly true, and was one of two possibilities that I had in mind, thus my insistence that a Bearbert town flip would make Fro99er town. I forgot some of that reasoning and stuck my vote on the person I'd wanted dead for a while. My question still stands about whether I could just tell people to lynch my top scumread (once I develop one again) when I flip town. My guess is no.

[Shazam]

My reads are obviously static because I currently don't have time for this game. What I have said is mostly solid. What I haven't said is because I don't have time. I think my wagon is clearly scum driven because Echo's posts clearly demonstrate that I am town. More specifically, VT. Lynch me while I'm catching up if you want to, I'm not going to be fully caught up until Saturday. Just make sure to lynch Fro99er tomorrow.

FYI, you're the weakest of the townreads, according to the VCA. I do however townread you independently of that.

Bye people. Lynch Shazam!

Okay. Hope you're right.

Just wanted to point this out because I thought it was weird at the time. Echo, out of the people likely to be on my wagon today, seems the most opportunistic. He goes from townreading me to lynching me just because a townie wants me dead. He even admits that he "hopes" Bearbert is right, not that he actually thinks he is. That's pretty suspicious.

[Shazam]

Also @Thread

Ok are we done lynching anyone other than the people I want lynched most?

I don't want to lynch those people. I think Davsto and Fro99er are town, though Davsto less so than Fro99er at this point, because of his really bad case on me. I'm trying to decide between Echo, ika, and you.

[Shazam]

Also @Thread

Ok are we done lynching anyone other than the people I want lynched most?

I don't want to lynch those people. I think Davsto and Fro99er are town, though Davsto less so than Fro99er at this point, because of his really bad case on me. I'm trying to decide between Echo, ika, and you.

So you can be specific as well.

What changed.

Just make sure to lynch Fro99er tomorrow.

You're right, Sakura's not scum with this scumbag.

I've already explained this. The flip association for me was Bearbert scum => Fro99er scum, Bearbert town => Fro99er town. I forgot this reasoning embarrassingly enough, partially from distraction, partially from having a hard time thinking of Bearbert as town, but anyway, it's been explained. The interactions there don't make sense for Fro99er scum, Bearbert town.

[Shazam]

I've already explained this. The flip association for me was Bearbert scum => Fro99er scum, Bearbert town => Fro99er town. I forgot this reasoning embarrassingly enough, partially from distraction, partially from having a hard time thinking of Bearbert as town, but anyway, it's been explained. The interactions there don't make sense for Fro99er scum, Bearbert town.

ealier 431 492 1970 2210 2313 2379 2490 2761 2799

ALL of those contain reason that you scum read Frogger that had nothing to do with any association with Piss/bear.

What happened to those reasons?

Nothing happened to them. The flip association is more important to me than those things. It's more concrete, because it's based on a series of interactions and actual information of Bearbert's alignment.

[Shazam]

@Axle
I'm not going to talk about that subject anymore because it's a distraction. If you disagree about the association between Bearbert and Fro99er, you can vote Fro99er. I'm not going to, today. There is at least one other scum out there even if he is somehow scum. If you think I have irrationally ABANDONED a good case against someone, that should make you think I'm town, so questioning me incessantly about it isn't going to get you anywhere.

VOTE: ika

I believe Echo's claim, since I believe there is a third mason, and nobody is counter-claiming. By PoE, it must be the lurker, which is the only way to really decide on a lurker. Admittedly, it could be Axle, but his posts seem too town-motivated. He's equally giving everybody crap.

[Shazam]

To start off, I find it interesting that Shazam is suddenly a fairly active and posting presence once pressure comes onto him.

UNVOTE:
Yes, I needed to be reminded of that. I got really angry at Davsto and got distracted, but I do still think that the flip outweighs my read on Fro99er. I'm not done responding to Davsto though.

Okay, this is a pathetic excuse. The fact that he's forgotten to uphold this whole thing because he "forgot" is bad in itself - town shouldn't "forget" an associative read they have, since they held it in the first place because that's what they believed. Also, I find it amusing that he's pinning the blame on me, as if it's somehow

my

fault that he made an error.

@Axle
I'm not going to talk about that subject anymore because it's a distraction. If you disagree about the association between Bearbert and Fro99er, you can vote Fro99er. I'm not going to, today. There is at least one other scum out there even if he is somehow scum. If you think I have irrationally ABANDONED a good case against someone, that should make you think I'm town, so questioning me incessantly about it isn't going to get you anywhere.

VOTE: ika

I believe Echo's claim, since I believe there is a third mason, and nobody is counter-claiming. By PoE, it must be the lurker, which is the only way to really decide on a lurker. Admittedly, it could be Axle, but his posts seem too town-motivated. He's equally giving everybody crap.

Okay, I'm gonna come out and say something here. I have no goddamn clue why Shazam is townreading me. I've generally been a mediocre player, and he said that my case on him is "bad," yet he's townreading me? I'm feeling that he's trying to avoid voting on his main detractor to get towncred or something, trying to avoid looking like he's advocating for the other half of a potential 1v1.

Unbelievable. Your desperation to get me lynched is showing. I have had many people call me scum (not in this game) for the exact opposite reason: that I DIDN'T post when under pressure. But the worst part is that I've been an active presence in this game for the entire time except when I was in the process of moving. So your premise is wrong to begin with.

Yes, it's obvious town shouldn't forget an associative read that they believe, which I admitted. Should scum? Obviously not. You ought to admit that I would have done that either way, but you frame it in the most convenient way for you.

So I abandon a case on Fro99er in a way you don't like, I pass on the opportunity to lynch you, and you think this is scummy? I think you're going to have to explain why I would ever decide not to lynch two of the more lynchable people if I was scum. I am avoiding looking like I'm advocating for a 1v1. That's because I'm avoiding advocating for a 1v1. Which is because a 1v1 with a townread is dumb. You're straight up saying that I could have made a case on you and gotten you lynched for good reasons, and chose not to. That's not how I see things, but if that's how you see things, you should townread me.

I think it should be understandable that when your case on me is the only thing I find scummy about your play this game, I am reluctant to say that you're scum because of it.

[Shazam]

So I'm looking at our options here.
If we assume that Echo claimed Mason to out ika then Echo's scum.
ika also didn't want us to deviate from sala's townbloc, that would make Echo town and would make Shazam the next in the lynch pool.
Also if we assume Echo town that means there's 2 scum in Axle/Spiffeh/DGB/Shazam

Axle has been the only one i've seen here actually following the game along and trying to solve it, he's the person i think is the most town out of those 4.
I want to know what he thinks about DGB since i think he thought frog was scum at some point?

As pointed out Ika was scum reading Echo recently.

Echo did soft CC, mason here 3301, but IKa went along with it, assuming it might be echo having worked out ika was the mason and was drawing the kill. (see 3347)

However Echo also voted Ika late yesterday

VOTE: ika

@EchoEcho please explain your vote on ika yesterday

Yeah, this is what I was thinking pretty much. I thought it was ika yesterday because of Echo's claim, but with Echo's claim being proven false, I'm pretty sure Echo is scum. My iso #23 is interesting in light of tn being scum. Seems to me that Echo had the worst case on him imaginable, so it lines up with a bus.

I have of course been suspicious of Sakura, but if she's scum, we'll find out soon enough.

[Shazam]

The post vomit.

I can actually talk about it now since the game is over.

Fro99er was scum in Delicious Mafia 2 which ended very recently and his play here does not resemble his play there in the slightest.

Yeah, I didn't have a Fro99er meta established, so I thought he was scum from what he said, but I'm leaning pretty hard the other way now. Plus DGB is useful to us even if she's somehow scum, because she's being very vocal about who voted what way. Of course the problem, as Axle has pointed out, is always the fact that she's not going to come to the conclusion that her predecessor was scum. But I don't believe that anyway, as Axle's post about that is unconvincing. I agree that Echo and DGB is very unlikely and since I think Echo's scum, I think DGB isn't. If I had to throw out a scumteam, it would be Echo and Sakura, but Sakura's mostly on setup speculation and I prefer to go with reason before setup speculation.

[Shazam]

Plus DGB is useful to us even if she's somehow scum

Uh... what.
Like it's not that i think DGB's scum anymore, but, in the supposed scenario of DGB being scum why would she be "useful"

This is explained in the post.

Shazam you think that there is more compelling evidence to lynch Echo (of which I barely see any btw) when Sakura gave up someone who was confirmed to her as scum just to sheep Salamence?

Actually no. You're right, that doesn't fit into the "setup speculation" category. The rest of it does, but the more I think about it, her explanation doesn't add up. On principle, I didn't want to go with the one of my scumreads that I had setup/night action reasons to vote for (as opposed to normal scumhunting), but I'm more confident that she is scum out of the two.

VOTE: Sakura Hana

[Shazam]

I'm sorry if I'm wrong Sakura but I think there's too much stacked against you.

@Axle

There's also the setup speculation argument which is like 100x less reliable but is still there. I don't see the town having a roleblocker AND a BPV. What exactly would a 1-shot roleblock do? Sure, it would block a kill, which is a confirmed guilty unless scum idles. Then scum waste their kill again trying to kill her because she is basically conf town after outing herself. Then she gets another guilty by tracking someone. Her role alone would be capable of stopping two night kills and getting two guilties, which seems WAY too overpowered with a scumteam of four when we already have a gunsmith and a two-shot vig. Also three confirmed towns because of the masons. It doesn't make sense given the setup. She should be lynched today.

Please respond to this.

The questions looked rhetorical

Sakura role of 1 shot track + 1 shot Role block + BP. Has a theme, the role has survivability, which means they can delay using the tracks and use them more to snip. This adds a small amount of extra investigative power and rewards skillfull checks, as guessing not only who is scum but who will do the action is hard.
and without the BP thetrendency to fire them off D1&D2 would make them very ineffective.

What would 1 shot role block do?
Later in the game when the odds are better, it lets you hunt for the kill. There is the risk of flase psoitve if they snipe you the same day you RB someone, but roles having false positives is not unusual. Mods think its character building for townies to have to second guess their red checks.

In terms of balance I thought 5 scum was plausible, so by definition 4 scum seems underpowered to me. HOWEVER pretty much no one bought into 5 scum for sec. So the current setup with the JOAT does not scream imbalanaced or the 5 man team would have looked more plausible.

So I am not seeing that other people claim WAY over powered, when people seemed to think 5 man scum team was not required with the JOAT.

Your speculation about worst case JOAT actions, is a bit extreme as tracks are hard to get off and hit with. SO worrying about a track and an RB both hotting? If town do stuff like that they deserve an easy win, that is like worrying about what if the vig only hits scum.

OK, I'll bite because I don't completely understand. You're saying 4 scum seems underpowered to you, but you find a JOAT, 3 Masons, a Vig, a Flower Vendor, and a Gunsmith on the other side even possibly balanced? I like how you're voting and would vote with you if it came to it, but I think you're wrong on Sakura at this point. I still don't see her "mistake" as coming from town, and I don't know how Spiffeh can be confused because he convinced me of this and I'm not confused.

[Shazam]

Yeah I dont find the Joat adds much power.
It is role that is hard to claim convincingly.

As there was not a 5 man scum team. my idea of balanced has been definitively shown to be at variance with the balance teams.
Yes coming back to a 4 man scum team did raise red flags for me about the roles.
To be consistent with my earlier estimation of balance, it would be some of the flipped roles that couldn't be in the game.

Once I accept i am wrong enough about what is considered balanced, how much more unlikely is it that they also considered adding the JOAT as well to be balanced?

This is really poor logic, and I don't know how anybody can think this way. This is like someone showing you a jar of mega-sized jelly beans and telling you to guess how many are in it after looking at it for just a few seconds. It looked to you like there were about 10 in there, so you guess 9. They say you're wrong, there's more than that, but you can guess again. So you guess 30 because you were wrong the first time.

You have the ability to estimate what is balanced, as does everyone else. Noticing you were wrong on your first guess should not cause you to abandon all reason and say "well the setup could look like anything now".

However,

In my actual mafia playing experience I have learned to trust no one thing(tell/mistake/fuckup). Town make horrendous stuff ups. Especially with their roles.

Please explain what the whole scum plan was during that day.

Sakura had been legit trying to lynch/bus Fire without claiming anything for a while.
IIRC correctly there was enough suspicion stated the day before to explain the track.


Why late in the day, did scum decide nope we really need to bus now. They could have left it a day, and let some potential mislynch happen and then bus tomorrow.
What would have changed the plan from Sakura merely writing a case and busing to fake claiming?

I flat out cant put Sakura as scum UNLESS echo is the partner.

and i cant do that because. How were scum planning on explaining Sakura not getting shot if the other mason wasn't found AND outed.

That for me can make sense, if the partner is Echo but not otherwise.

Thus I don't want to lynch Sakura if Echo is alive for a start off. And then there is my actual read of her play.

I still agree with this general sentiment. This is where I was at the start of the day. It is typically good to go with your reads of someone's play than other things. I believe this is an exception to that.

I think you're wrong on Sakura at this point. I still don't see her "mistake" as coming from town, and I don't know how Spiffeh can be confused because he convinced me of this and I'm not confused.

explain why it would come from scum.

And this is why I think it's an exception. Sakura's mistake would make much more sense if she did not actually track anyone and messed up the claim that she did. If you haven't actually gotten a guilty, it's just fine and dandy to sheep someone instead of using the guilty. Is there a scum motivation for this? Well...not really, aside from taking advantage of a mislynch. But it's a mistake that's easier for scum to make. Much easier.

[Shazam]

Shazam - Blindly follows Spiffeh's suspicions on me and has kept static reads all game.

You stated just two opinions in just one sentence, and they're both wrong. Following Spiffeh was not blind, and my reads have not been static. Both of those are clear facts.

You have the ability to estimate what is balanced, as does everyone else. Noticing you were wrong on your first guess should not cause you to abandon all reason and say "well the setup could look like anything now".

But do also notice that the difference between adding a JOAT and NOT is not large. AND its only the differnce that changes how unlikely it is from my perspective.

Also Oh goody I am bad. Do you actually argue that the setupo should have had 5 scum and it looked inbalanced to have 4?

or do you think i was wrong.

I would have expected either 5 scum and plenty of town power or 4 scum and little town power. I believe you were close to being correct in your expectations for the setup, and the setup has not quite turned out that way. But to say that it's probably even farther off than it has to be is just nonsensical.

He also continues argue with me after saying he was townreading me which looks like scum busy work.

You realize that I've pushed Sakura, Fro99er, and tn, right? And still do scumread Fro99er and Sakura?

Here he takes credit for "pushing" tn when all he did was hop on his wagon. Desperate for town cred.

I don't understand his Fro99er read progression to thinking he was a shoe in for scum and then changing that to a townread so suddenly.

He's had Sakura as a scum read the ENTIRE game but hasn't committed to voting for her until now. This makes me think they are scum buddies. However, I have felt Sakura was town up until today which is why I am hesitating.

I also feel like he's been really passive today and kinda waiting for things to happen before giving any input.

So as soon as I townread you, I shouldn't have the right to disagree with you? What if what you're saying is directly against me? That's what's going on in the situation you're referring to, I believe. Honestly, you're making it clear that if someone's desperate to indicate my alignment, it's you.
You even know the reason why I haven't committed to voting Sakura until now, and you can't possibly convince anyone that it's not a good one. I wasn't going to lynch a claimed, significant PR earlier in the game.
As an aside, did anyone else notice that I was accused of having static reads by one person, and of suspiciously changing my reads too suddenly by another person within a couple pages? It's pretty clear I'm not scum, but people are trying hard to make it look that way. This is consistent with Spiffeh's game but not Sakura's.

[Shazam]

and someone else randomly comes in and votes you too because they've been suspecting you since D1 (yet never voted you). That's how i feel atm.

Why do people keep throwing that in there like it's some sort of smoking gun? You know why I didn't vote you before, and I'm pretty sure it hasn't been since D1. Your free pass did have to run out eventually, and this looks like you getting upset about that.

[Shazam]

You even know the reason why I haven't committed to voting Sakura until now, and you can't possibly convince anyone that it's not a good one. I wasn't going to lynch a claimed, significant PR earlier in the game.

My PR was only made known at the end of D4, You have 3 and a half days to account for an excuse for not wanting to vote me, start.

You either can't do math or didn't pay attention to what I just posted. It was not D1, it was the end of D2. So it's two days. Notice who got lynched from D2-D4, if you would. I don't think I was off-track. I had firmer scumreads than you, and that turned out pretty well.

[Shazam]

I think Shazam is a shoe in for scum no matter what.

I think him just popping in to defend himself and not do any scum hunting is bad.

The other spot is between Sakura and Echo and I'm leaning towards Sakura. However, Echo is doing himself no favors.

Can you all please sheep me?

VOTE: Shazam

PEdit: Echo can you at least look at the posts about Shazam I've made today and give me your thoughts?

Here's what I would like to know: do you think anything that has been said today should change my opinions on anything aside from the one case in which that has already happened (being convinced that now is the time to vote Sakura)? Do you think that anything I have said or could say would change your opinion on me? The theme of this game has been that people have agreed that I was scum, but not agreed on why. There is nothing I can do about that except point it out, and I have done so. While people are thinking I'm scum, they're not going to listen to me, so there is no point in sifting through 20 Echo posts and trying to find one piece of substantial content from which to attempt to say he is scum. I am confident that the team is Echo and Sakura, because the rest of you are very, very townie. But you specifically are also impossible to reason with. Therefore I do not choose to spend a vast amount of my time on this game.

[Shazam]

DGB do not vote Echo whatever you do.

Shazam will be lynched today. Me Sakura DGB Echo is four.

Whoever refuses is his teammate.

Except that since I'm not scum, I have more than one teammate. But the scum would both be happy to lynch me. And even if I was scum, my partner might not refuse. This is a bad plan even from your perspective.

[Shazam]

I am confident that the team is Echo and Sakura

So Echo's busing his partner with very poor reasoning instead of attempting to get a mislynch on MyLo, did I get that right?

Sure, why not? It's worked out pretty well if you ask me. In light of that, I have figured out that the only way to lynch someone other than me (and thereby give town a chance of winning) is to vote Echo first. My only hope is if the two of you who seem to think it's Echo and me (or at least that it could be) will vote Echo first.

VOTE: Echo Echo

[Shazam]

DGB don't you see Sakura and Shazam have retracted their votes for each other at one point or another today in favor of voting Echo when Echo had seemingly become the popular vote. Sakura is only bussing now because I said "whoever doesn't vote Shazam is the other scum. You need to vote for Shazam.

Echo vote for Shazam now. Otherwise you will get lynched which results in a town loss.

NO LYNCHING WILL NOT WORK. Scum would just idle and we would just be wasting our time.

This is extremely convoluted reasoning, and the conclusion doesn't make any sense. If this was the dynamic, and the motivation for my actions, then why would we not have been voting Echo at the same time already? You're not thinking clearly because you want to make things fit into your framework.

I am confident that the team is Echo and Sakura

So Echo's busing his partner with very poor reasoning instead of attempting to get a mislynch on MyLo, did I get that right?

Sure, why not? It's worked out pretty well if you ask me. In light of that, I have figured out that the only way to lynch someone other than me (and thereby give town a chance of winning) is to vote Echo first. My only hope is if the two of you who seem to think it's Echo and me (or at least that it could be) will vote Echo first.

VOTE: Echo Echo[/quote

The funny thing is Sakura had more votes than Echo at this time and his switch to Echo was what MADE Echo have the most votes.

So there was no reason for you to switch off of her.

DGB this should be more reason than any to vote for him.

This is not true. There was a reason, and it was a very good one, and I gave it already. Sakura was not going to be lynched today based on what other people have already said. Echo could be lynched based on the number of people that have expressed some willingness to vote him. Why are you so desperate to lynch me that everything is a reason to do so? If you are town, I would expect you to wait for an actual reason, and then bring it to the attention of others. The driving need to make everything look the way you want it to today is the scummiest thing I've seen from you this game.

I am confident that the team is Echo and Sakura

So Echo's busing his partner with very poor reasoning instead of attempting to get a mislynch on MyLo, did I get that right?

Sure, why not? It's worked out pretty well if you ask me. In light of that, I have figured out that the only way to lynch someone other than me (and thereby give town a chance of winning) is to vote Echo first. My only hope is if the two of you who seem to think it's Echo and me (or at least that it could be) will vote Echo first.

VOTE: Echo Echo

Fuck

you.

VOTE: Shazam

Also this. Obviously moving my vote would mean that the other person voting Sakura would stop doing so, and I knew where that vote was going. There's OMGUS and PoE from his perspective coming into play here. I'm risking my own life to vote in the only way I can imagine working out well for town. This somehow makes me scummier to you, just as everything else does.

[Shazam]

Spiffeh, I do believe you are town now.

So that's you, Axle, and me. I don't trust Axle's judgement a whole lot since he thinks I am scum LOL. But I trust yours.

I agree with your #3822, with the caveat that he may have followed the momentum and maybe wasn't keeping track of the votecount. Well. That would be scummy, too.

Give me a few hours to think, this being MyLo and everything.

I don't understand how you can agree with him, since he shows he didn't even read my post. My vote change was not about the number of votes currently on players as I made very clear. And I do not understand how it could be scummy to follow the momentum to lynch a scum read and save town from losing by lynching me.

[Shazam]

You piece of shit. Voting town to save yourself from being lynched is

not

the answer. This makes me think you're scum.

This is actually incorrect to a point. I obviously don't know if you're town for 100% sure, but even if I thought you were town, voting you would in fact be the answer. I know that I am town, and it appears to be you or me, as I've already explained. So taking a possible loss over a sure loss? Yeah, that's the answer actually. Of course, I expect it not to be a loss if you get lynched.

Scum is bussing as we speak.

Just not certain which of you is the scum bussing,.

But whichever one retracts their vote will make it obvious so they're now forced into bussing.

How would you know this? If the scum is Axle and Sakura, for instance, they would not be bussing. Note that Axle hasn't been around to vote me. I really don't think that's the scum team, but you should be treating it as a possibility.

[Shazam]

You say that Sakura is scum, but you later vote the person that voted her before you did. If your aim wasn't to vote town, I don't know what that is.

So it's impossible for scum to bus? Especially as a first vote when it takes four to lynch? I have no idea what your thought process is here. My aim is not to vote town, my aim is to save town from a certain loss, as I have said multiple times now.

Here's what I noticed just now, though. You are being incredibly hypocritical. After I removed my vote, you noticed the same thing I did: Sakura's not getting lynched today. This caused you to move your vote to me, a town player. This is not any different from what I did, and I don't blame you as either scum or town.

[Shazam]

DGB is who we're waiting on.

She said she wanted to think about it which is fine but I don't see much else to think about.

We have confirmed that she can only possibly be scum with Shazam at this point.

Ok, fine. After your billionth post like this, I'll just ask the question: could I be town from your POV?

[Shazam]

honestly we were on the edge all the time, the only real counter we had was to the vig, since no matter what we couldn't let the gunsmith keep getting innos, on top of 3 masons that was a real low blow, and we only got lucky that one was shot by the vig, Shiro was conftown for being inno'd by the gunsmith and confirmed flower vendor hence why we shot her.

I feel like it would have gone better if we had had some sort of more team mindset, but Shazam decided to go solo and with tn barely doing anything and me accidentally guilty'ing firebringer out of panic, that... went horrible

Also THIS IS WHY I ALWAYS KILL REPLACEMENTS SHAZAM, SCREW YOU FOR WANTING TO KILL IKA :<

Ok i had to get that out of my chest.

If you call what I did "going solo" (and I literally have no idea what you're talking about, or how going solo is possible within the bounds of normal play while I'm posting in the scum PT) what on earth do you call literally deciding single-handedly that your whole team gets a loss in the game? I'm not making in claims as to the likelihood of winning if you hadn't conceded, but sheesh.

As for wanting to kill ika, screw me for having an opinion? I gave you the last word, and you officially submitted that kill. It doesn't do any good to say "I always do X" if you don't do it just because someone advises you otherwise.

After saying my piece there, I'm going to give you a free pass because you don't seem to mean much of what you're saying. You're just being an emotional mess, so I don't take it too seriously.

I thought Sakura and Shazam played really well for the most part.

It was really ridiculous imo that so many people ragequit this game over some really petty shit and it was cool of the subs to sub into those slots (DGB in particular).

Although I am curious what caused Sakura to panic into claiming a guilty onto FB?

@pieguyn I hope you make the scum and dead chats public?

You know what? You played really well too. I gave you some crap in the mafia and dead PT's, and I don't necessarily take back what I said, but you did have the relationship between Sakura and me nailed down despite having some poor reasons for us individually. So you had a good grasp of the general situation that helped the town win. And you have a good attitude towards other people, which seems to be sorely lacking among the players who originally were in this game. 10/10 would play with again.

[Shazam]

Yeah I think maybe giving scum a roleblock instead of the doctor and knocking off a mason might have made the game a little more balanced.

But I've never made a game on this site so idk

And you agree with me about the setup. Sweet.

[Shazam]

I'm out for now. I hope it was at least somewhat enjoyable despite all the vitriol.

It was enjoyable. I hope by "all the vitriol" you're referring to the Fro99er replace-out situation. The only other situation I might describe that way was Fro99er blacklisting me because he disagreed with me. I detected little real negative emotion in other disagreements that took place. Thanks for modding, and although you seem to have chosen not to respond I hope you will at least consider my thoughts on the setup. I'm known for having quite a bit of experience with making setups, and especially large ones, though you won't see that by looking at my history on this site. I'm not claiming to be good at it, just that I know what I'm talking about. I liked the timing of the game, though.

[Shazam]

Thanks for modding, and although you seem to have chosen not to respond I hope you will at least consider my thoughts on the setup.

ya in hindsight I think it would have been more balanced with just 2 masons tbh. I don't think it was too unbalanced and I don't think the gunsmith or the vig were as strong as you were making them out to be, but scum prob could have used more breathing room.

Cool. I was just trying to make a point, and removing a mason would imo be a sufficient response to that point. I think that the vig and gs are powerful, but I don't mind them.

[Shazam]

Yeah, I mean, I try as scum to act as much like my towngame as possible. That means seeing things as scummy that I would see as scummy if I was town. So if one of my teammates does something super scummy, I will bus them. That's not a non-team or solo mindset. I think that it gave us the best chance of winning, because it got me lynched much later in the game.
I was wrong in thinking that your actions at that time you quoted would make me lose, it did end up being the town's interpretation of my own actions that got me lynched, even if I think it was faulty reasoning. So apology definitely accepted and I understand that you were under a lot of pressure in this game.

[Shazam]

Playing as mafia is obviously about keeping as many of your team alive as possible for as long as possible. So keeping myself alive qualifies. If I can do something that won't kill my teammates at a much higher rate, but will keep me alive at a much higher rate, it helps the team.

[Shazam]

acutaly sakura its better you listened to yourself and killed me and not listend to shazam cas i said it in dead and i will say it here:

if i were alive and not dead after the CC, i would of rammed a lynch down shazam first thing with no cares to anyones post and yell at anyone who opposed me and broob bring a lot of hate towards each for being stupid about voting me. and if you tried to stop me i prob would of gone veryspiteful towards you and then ram lynch you next or tell them to

I think you mean the other way around? I was the one who wanted to kill you.

[Shazam]

One day I will make a theme game with this game as it theme

All with

Princess Sakura and Shiro
Flower protector Sala
Dark wizard Shazam

Everything.

Also /pre-in.