Mini 1840: Watch Dogs Blitz [Game Over]

[Grapevine]

Hello.

[Grapevine]

I'm thinking if we get a universal townread by day 2 we can all claim to that person

Scum sometimes get universally townread on d1 but it's rare for that to continue until d2

Why not confirmed town?

Played a game before with similar-ish messaging mechanics and this was a thought I had as scum.

But that's because I was a tape-thief and planned to steal all the messages sent to confirmed town after the massclaim.

Firebringer was in that game.

[Grapevine]

Gamma or Infinity are obv scum.

Why?

[Grapevine]

Gamma, why are you so upset about a few votes on you early on?

VOTE: Infinity

[Grapevine]

Wait, is Math townreading or scumreading lane?

Why is that something dependent on your read?

[Grapevine]

Gamma, two players voting you doesn't mean one of them must be scum.

It's the way the wagon formed.

"It's not the wording I want, must be scum"

I don't think I've ever seen creature push on someone like this and he could be scum.

It's a cold shoulder, it's not trying to see things from gamma's side.

Like, I disagree with gamma that early on in RVS "the way" wagons form is very indicative of anything other than being driven by people not concerned with appearances. Which can be an alignment tell for some. But what he's saying is a whole lot more nuanced than "it's not the wording i want"

[Grapevine]

Dunnstral has sent a message to Stargrazers
Dunnstral has sent a message to Grapevine

New phone who this.

[Grapevine]

Infinity, I'm voting you because you asked gamma a pretty terrible question and I'm not sure who you actually think is scum right now. Let's try and correct one of these things.

Also I'm not sure if you missed my post where I told you massclaiming to "obvtown" with messages may not be the best idea, because you continue to push it in a post later on the same page.

Please explain why that's the first thing you thought of when reading the setup and how doing that actually helps town.

[Grapevine]

Actually expedience I was wrong in that post you quoted; creatures reply there was meant for a different post. Now that I'm not skimming 1 hour before I've gotta be out the door I don't think creature's early push on gamma was all that bad.

What did you like about dunn's entrance?

[Grapevine]

Is it the Varsoon or grapes head of Grapevine that's posted so far?

It's been grapes so far if you really can't tell. Varsoon has been busy as shit.

[Grapevine]

House, how is this a townslip?

Because I'm trying to figure out why he did it. It's a game mechanic from the mod. Of course it's going to work. It's not some foreign mechanic. And now there's 4 people that know he's telling the truth about this. Why would he be lying about it? Like he's trying to gain people's trust for some reason. Or he sent different messages, one to his partner. Disguised as a test. And he now said what was sent. So if he did send a message, they can verify it. I just am trying to figure out the intentions.

Why couldn't scum send a message to a partner disguised as a test and also have daychat?

[Grapevine]

Lane, your thing about creature saying we; feel like you're not giving his question there the credit it deserves. The root of it is good, he's trying to see if gamma realistically thinks scum would push on him early the way that creature and infinity were. You know, trying to grasp his motivations and thought processes. Sure, saying we is weird. But I've said weirder shit as town.

pedit: @House, no, that's not necessarily what he said. There's an associative wifom element to sending random messages early on as well that you're not accounting for in motivations here. His basis for suspicion wasn't the fact that they were communicating it was just the fact that the messages were sent.

Unless you think by him saying the word "disguised" is reason enough to assume he meant "they're actually having an entire diabolical back-n-forth" then I'm still not seeing what you're seeing.

pedit2: @infinity, what kind of answer did you expect to get out of asking why gamma overreacted?

Also confirmed town person knowing everyone's claims, while not as bad as none knowing everyone's claims, can be worked around by scum the same way they work around pushing mislynches while there's an IC.

I just mean like, how often is it that you play setups broken by mass-claim and what obvious benefits are there of someone knowing everyone's claims for town?

Like, I can think of a few, just wanna see if you could as well but I mean if you're just gonna back down instantly when questioned on it then w/e.

[Grapevine]

I've just caught up.
I need to discuss things with my other head.
I am 100% behind our vote, though.
That's right, you heard it from the GrapeVine.

-V

[Grapevine]

Not nearly as much as they'll hate me.
And, yes, House, I do see what you do to mods that put in easily abusable mechanics. We thought of a similar thing at the same time. It's good to know we might be on the same page here, one way or another.
Every player in the game is about to receive a text with special instructions.
Please follow those instructions as best you can.

[Grapevine]

House, did you attempt to text yourself?
Is such a thing possible?

[Grapevine]

There's two reasons I can think for the text to have to go through Firebringer.

1. Texts can be manipulated in some way, shape, or form--either some people can't receive them, or others can view them in some way, or something.
or
2. Firebringer was too shortsighted to realize giving everyone a PT with everyone else for texting would have the ideal way to do the same thing.

[Grapevine]

Either way, it's humorous to think of Firebringer having to deal with the hassle of juggling hundreds of PMs.

-V

[Grapevine]

ESPECIALLY so if there's mechanics that directly interact with Texts.
-V

[Grapevine]

Your early-game positioning was too focused on town-posturing,
You've backed wagons on players that I have solid townreads on,
You're overdefensive and flighty at times.
Gut.

That sort of stuff.

P-EDIT:
Dunn's town.

-V

[Grapevine]

See, that sort of post rings to me as "Oh, nuts, I need more mislynches, I'm so silly and town, gonna give myself space to fabricate some new scumreads after the fact."

You've been organically a part of this game since page 1. I would imagine you'd have more entrenched/informed/confident reads 18 deep and wouldn't need to do a re-read to produce more scumreads.
If anything, just double down on the scumreads you're positive on.

-V

[Grapevine]

Use of the the pronoun 'we', aligning with town awkwardly within the space of discussing universal townreads, voting people while saying that's what 'scum would do' to justify a vote there, that sort of thing. I reads to me as awkward posturing more than organic play.

I've only played with Dunnstral recently, but I am fairly confident of my townread there. Parts of play here remind me of Dunnstral-town that I've seen elsewhere. There's a few tells, including degree of flippancy, that align with what I believe to indicate Dunnstral as town. Also, Dunnstral's votes follow a progression that makes sense to me from a town PoV.

P-EDIT:
I, too, would like to know what 'abusing' the system is. I'm definitely trying to use it to play the game at hand.
Also-also, people should follow the guidelines I sent them via text.

@Infinity: Wagons rose and fell. You were central to several moments that were polarizing so far. There's more than enough content for you to make an informed set of reads. I'm not saying it has to be anywhere near correct or absolute, but you should definitely have a sense of how you feel about many of the players you have interacted with so far.

-V

[Grapevine]

I think Firebringer is just chuffed that I thought of the way better, hassle-free approach of just making a bunch of PTs.
It's okay to be jelly, FB.

-V

[Grapevine]

There's more than one person who's done something worth scumreading. Apply yourself.
Even the self-critique of 'Oh no, I have too many townreads' is very awkward, you know? Spelling that out in the thread feels like a defense measure, almost as if a buddy told you in your scum PT and you immediately thought, "Well if I lampshade it, who can push me on it?"
As I said, there is a degree of flippancy that's notable.

If my points against you are difficult to respond to, that's all you, chief.

P-EDIT: There it goes, as expected.
Respond to my text sometime, chump.

-V

[Grapevine]

Aw, Lane, c'mon, why not at least a pity-text?

-V

[Grapevine]

Buenos noches.

Infinity I can't seem to find your read on expedience help me out?

[Grapevine]

I almost kinda want to just lynch a lurker today tbh, Infinity is one of the more active posters and that will be useful to town in the late game even if he is in fact scum.

You can't be serious.

[Grapevine]

Btw Infinity's vote on us is delayed omgus trash that's our lynch today.

Like there's no way you can have a back and forth conversation with someone for a page, and then decide a good bit later into the exchange that they're scum because they're not trying to have a conversation with you.

Makes no sense.

[Grapevine]

Buenos noches.

Infinity I can't seem to find your read on expedience help me out?

Null, I guess.

His reasoning seems pretty shallow (e.g. his last post) but he doesn't seem to be trying to look town, particularly.

What's "shallow" about it?

[Grapevine]

I almost kinda want to just lynch a lurker today tbh, Infinity is one of the more active posters and that will be useful to town in the late game even if he is in fact scum.

You can't be serious.

I'm dead serious, and I agree with him there.

What helps town more, a lurker making it to MyLo with 50 posts, or scum with 200?

Who's more likely to be able to be read when it's down to the wire?

Umm. Are those 50 posts town as fuck? Like, listen to yourselves.

I'll string up a dude who's p dodging through the game no questions asked but GL's talking about lurkers like there's more than one slot with zero content from.

Plus infinity is a scumfuck it's like he's not even reading his posts.

[Grapevine]

In other words need to have a conversation with lion when he graces us with his presence once again.

-G

[Grapevine]

Let's talk about how Mathblade has made zero waves this game.

[Grapevine]

Infinity holy fuck post about something that isn't you.

[Grapevine]

Gamma who's scum?

[Grapevine]

Everyone townreading infinity -- where you at?

[Grapevine]

Thinking Expedience and Dunnstral are scum rn.

Reread the thread or something then.

[Grapevine]

There's people who think infinity is town.

But aren't doing anything about this wagon we're pushing down his throat.

pedit: Yea

[Grapevine]

It doesn't look like you have reads to start with.

[Grapevine]

Looking at Infinity's ISO, I have him as a scumlean. Not strong enough to vote him over Expedience or Dunn.

Why do you think expedience and dunn are scum?

[Grapevine]

And I find that players who have no impact posture and park not voting the whole day coupled with floaty content quite often flip scum.

Especially in a game you sign up for knowing days only last less than a week.

[Grapevine]

Gamma people can have similar opinions and both be town let's move on.

[Grapevine]

mathblade explain why infinity's town, why those three are scum, and why you aren't voting any of them.

[Grapevine]

Already said infinity was mislynch bait based on voting pattern and why I wasn't voting anyone.

This means nothing to me you realize.

[Grapevine]

SlySly

Why is sly so high?

[Grapevine]

purgepool is lion/star/infinity/math

[Grapevine]

If I'm a vig I shoot slysly

[Grapevine]

Okay slysly might be town. lol

[Grapevine]

Reads are mostly POE, like everyone not in my pool I've gotta some townvibes from here and there.

Conversely I've gotten scumvibes from those in there. Sly was pretty close to being a flat null.

[Grapevine]

Infinity is demonstrating exactly how scum push for lynches.

The assbackwards flaccid "why are they town" dance.

You wouldn't know the dude's had his vote on us for the last 10 pages.

[Grapevine]

That seems disingenuous I mind controlled you not long ago.

[Grapevine]

Just iso'd gamma

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Grapevine]

tl;dr I don't think he's scumhunting and his reads are bad and stagnant.

I might just hate how infinity plays.

[Grapevine]

You should know that I can town hard as scum so I'm not sure why you're acting like a lack of towntells from our slot should mean much or why you don't think we haven't been town to start with because we have.

Unsigned are grapes yea I'll try and remember to do that from now on I don't ever really hydra.

[Grapevine]

Yea sure.

You gonna vote gamma or stay parked on me?

pedit: @infinity

[Grapevine]

I don't think gamma is making any effort to look town so I'm comfortable having him as tow for now

Read his iso and show me a genuine progression on something.

[Grapevine]

Well he's scum so I'd probably quote all of them I guess?

I modded the kid recently his reads changed at the drop of a hat here he's just sticky on the most mundane shit.

[Grapevine]

@people voting me Why am I scum

VOTE: Infinity

See this is a bad vote I think because infinity had just gotten nakedly voted by three people.

[Grapevine]

Page 8 is a good example of scum coaxing on a 1v1 (house and dunn) both of which I'm leaning town on.

[Grapevine]

page 15 actually

[Grapevine]

Page 8 is a good example of scum coaxing on a 1v1 (house and dunn) both of which I'm leaning town on.

Gamma has played 1 other game as scum I believe. I don't think he's experienced enough to do that

How much experience do you need to be the shitter that stands around in a circle with other shitters while two people fist fight in the center.

[Grapevine]

You're giving it too much credit. Go read page 15 his posts are designed to do nothing but cause flail and/or keep the pointless WK argument going.

Doesn't look town.

[Grapevine]

It's not even a hard thing to do.

[Grapevine]

Me think grape can be scum!

Please elaborate.

pedit: that's a lame response

explain what your motivation for making those shit posts actually were? get a read on them? no. convince people to lynch him? meh?

[Grapevine]

I mean my argument is very contextual with this particular string of events but hold on I'll quote some of the specific posts in question. (it's why i told people to read that page in full)

Spoiler:

Post 345 was bad

When you defend everything he does while he's sitting at 1 vote I'd call that white knighting

idk whether you are confbiased or just bad scum but I quite plainly called him out for being defensive.

Now it looks like you're flailing. You "called him out" then in your next post said you doubted he was scum about something else

No I suspect Dunn is scum.

Who's this selling?

House, have you played with Dunnstral before?

This looks like cogdis actually now that I'm hyperanalyzing like, you know house is pushing on dunn, you're pushign on dunn, what's the point of this question with regards to you wanting to get dunn lynched?

So you don't know how he plays as scum.

And you didn't explain why him not knowing how he plays as scum should be affecting his read.

I was in a newbie with boring too.
What of it?

This isn't a good question. (this is the trying to create flail part among others)

His random accusation of whiteknighting. It looks like scum trying to pin something that isn't there. I am also not fond of all the naked votes. There was a chain of three I saw.

Generic reasoning for his accusations (running theme in the iso)

Define big deal! And show me where I made it a big deal. Again it is you and infinity who are making it a big deal and somehow trying to make it seem like I'm making it a bit deal. Do you think a "big deal" generally comes with a vote. I mean if I made such a big deal about it that it gets your vote, but not a big enough deal that you get mine? You make no sense. You better read through it a third time. Carefully.

I'm not gonna spam the thread with more about this, everyone has already witnessed it once and everyone knows who initiated the blowup about me sending texts. Technically, it didn't get my vote. Reading through again and spotting the pattern after seeing you do it to infinity as well got my vote.

I doubt he's scum, man.

I love white knighting

I love voting scum.

And again, I'm totally sold, man.

-G

[Grapevine]

I'm not saying he was setting up a 1v1 -- it was already a thing that was happening. He coattails it in a scummy way designed to keep the engagement hot. Which can be forgivable if you're not bringing things designed to see your target fail.

[Grapevine]

Feel like I'm not being completely understood and that's more than likely my fault.

Gamma isn't town.

I'm meh on creature; he should update his reads.

[Grapevine]

Grape question before I read this spoiler: Do you think you bias tunnel and what I mean from that is when I have a scumread on someone I tend to take a lot of their posts in a scummy light even if some of the posts aren't scummy at all. Do you think you may have done that with Gamma?
~Maria

I don't believe so and it's really only a fews quips I wanted to show infinity with regards to something gamma did on one page because he wanted more elaboration on that specific thing I was talking about.

I skimmed a few parts of the game again with gamma scum in mind and that jumped out at me.

My read on him is more of a body of work thing all around like take a look at the iso and show me where he's scumhunting if you want to actually have a productive conversation here.

[Grapevine]

@Grape
I read the spoiler and how strong is your sr on Gamma is it your best vote to you I'd like to see where your heads at cause those seem like pretty weakish reasons to vote I think Gamma had one of if not the best early
games/RVS~Maria

That wasn't the only reason I voted him.

If you're positive he's town please show me places where he's genuinely scumhunted.

Creature you as well.

[Grapevine]

Just strange that he's suggesting a lurker lynch when he's one himself. I did the same thing in Wake's Role Madness.

I've also done the same as scum. It was a while ago but still.

Did we just discover a new tell?

[Grapevine]

Okay again like. Why do you read people based on playstyle when gamma's playstyle isn't the hardest thing in the world to fake in the first place and why do you shrug off the hardest thing for scum to convincingly fake consistently.

Like look at gamma's reads and there progression.
In particular his scumreads.

Dunn's scum.
Expedience is scum.

Neither of those reads got any movement at all and the baseline reasoning was entirely bad to the point where the solid conviction he has there doesn't seem to stack up. Especially so when you apply that to what his priority is in posting so far.

pedit: @stargazers

[Grapevine]

Thought we agreed that Gamma's reaction earlier the day was towny. What do you think about it?

I think gamma's a good enough player to suppress an early amount of pressure as scum.
But his engagement did drop once you guys let up on him.
Feel like town are more likely to stay involved after that I dunno.

It's his play as a whole though like I don't think he's trying to sort the game.

[Grapevine]

I guess what I mean is that when you're concise there's not much you need to put effort into faking from the real thing anyway.

[Grapevine]

I hate townreading Varsoon.

I wanted a payback lynch.

What?

I owe him much death for Bloodborne.

Hey, woah, don't hold it against me! That game was a mistake! A beautiful, well-crafted mistake!

Also, I missed 10 pages because I slept in.
Just bear with me.
-V

[Grapevine]

Anyone played with Varsoon before?

He doesn't do anything

Varsoon was in wake's game, lol

Proves dunn's point I guess

Dunn played with me in the Mass Effect game, which, coupled with Wake's game, are both awful examples of how I engage in a smaller game thread like this one.
In those huge games, it's easy to be overwhelmed, but when you know you're in a dumb multiball setup, the optional play as any alignment is to not play and be a non-entity.

That sort of game is leagues different from this sort of game, where we have a manageable playerbase and, I imagine, only a single scumteam.

[Grapevine]

Lane and House are the only other players that come to mind off this list that may have some deal of experience playing with me in a similar setting.

Oh, and I want to double down on this--I still think Infinity is our best bet for scum as of now.

-V

[Grapevine]

It's a fairly common disengaging tactic to simply say "You are not interacting with me" or "Build a more articulated case" or even "Where?".
I've dealt with and walled up against that nonsense before and there's really no winning that fight, it just creates pointless noise and entrenches me when I should be paying attention to everyone.
Infinity just voted us and then is immediately all, "Oh, yeah, my playstyle excuses that play you called out and I should probably be doing the things you said"
It's like
Why the OMGUS, then?
It just doesn't fit.
It's too incongruous for me to read as town.

-V

[Grapevine]

Dunn played with me in the Mass Effect game

nope I wasn't in that, it was the street fighter large and my game my flavor large

Really?
Man, then my memory is awful.
Yeah, I didn't do anything in Street Fighter.

-V

[Grapevine]

final thought though: House town-told in a message he sent me, I don't think he'd be a good lynch

I like your nathan fielder image
Also
You're gonna have to do better than that, man what

[Grapevine]

House has sent a message to GuiltyLion.

This one, I assume?
I had to double check. 'cus it'd be funny if there was no message.
But alas
Hum digger.

-V

[Grapevine]

Up to page 19, will gather my thoughts when I'm done.

As for dunn, he is very flippant as scum. Does me saying that change anything for you?

Would like varsoon to respond to this.

Nope,
but the level of engagement here strikes me as town.
Again, it's all degrees and such.

[Grapevine]

Gamma's a pretty good lynch guys.

Like I asked at the minimum 3 people to show me places he's scumhunting and all I've gotten back as a response is lolmeta.

You improve a significant amount after your first scumgame on site here. Usually.

Pickup.

[Grapevine]

Someone explain the panther hype.

Got about a day left here.

[Grapevine]

What

quoted the slip for the iso

[Grapevine]

"I have no opinion on the largest wagon counter to me 1 day till deadline"

"But I heard that he lacks substance or something"

Like why aren't you lynched yet.

That first point is a lie. The second is NAI.

If it's a lie, then vote me. If it's a lie, give me your opinion on panther.

This feels like a scum reaction.

[Grapevine]

And it's not even really my point anyway. Come crunch time you outta be shoveling who you think our best play is. Not flailing about making nothing posts designed to look helpful.

[Grapevine]

Gamma is town. By the nature of his playstyle, there aren't going to be specific places where you can tell he's scumhunting. He has reads an they change. But I can't possibly imagine that scum!gamma looked at all of his posts, said "hmm that looks good", and clicked submit.

SlySly's case on lane is terrible but probably not trying to look good either.

Let's lynch panther. He came into the game, gave in-depth analysis on things that didn't particularly matter, then when called out on it voted the person who called him out with an incredibly shallow reason. That's not town play.

I'll vote him to get a lynch.

But you're very, very wrong on gamma.

[Grapevine]

Like "his playstyle is hard to parse" so why aare you so sure he's town then?

Show me where his reads changed before he was pushed for not changing them.

[Grapevine]

Yea maybe math has a point about creature/gamma. Because that was literally the only thing he let go of all game before I pushed him on being stagnant.

Next thing you know he develops opportunistic scumreads on math and house for I can't remember why.

Goes back to what someone was saying before about keeping the tells hidden. Because he changed it up only after I said something. But there wasn't any flow to it. Just cardboard propped up HEY GUYS LOOK AT ME NEW READS THEY'RE EVEN WORSE THAN BEFORE!

He's just either posting to 'prove someone wrong' on something regarding his play. Sticking his nose in places it doesn't belong. Or using generic reasoning for scumreads.

Like, infinty can you please just trust me on this bro?

[Grapevine]

And he never really comes out and says he's not scumreading creature anymore.

I don't know how you can call that a natural progression. Doesn't make it definitely insidious because I don't always update all my shit in every other post, but don't call something natural that you can't even see.

[Grapevine]

Maybe when we die N1 and you're alive with gamma in 3-way and vote wrong you'll remember this moment and just sheep me next time.

[Grapevine]

VOTE: Infinity

Why would you even ask such a thing?
That's not where your priorities should be at all.
-V

[Grapevine]

i still have no context for any of this, but that question looked to me like what Panther was reading it was. 'are you confident about your result, and should we listen to you?'
i don't see a problem with that, Varsoon.
also, hello! :>

It reads more like lining up lynches to me.
No shit Panther's willing to deal with the consequences of what he said--trying to insist "Oh but it you're wrong we get to lynch you, too" is awkward. Like I said, it seems like setting up for a town v town where both get lynched.

Also, my whole message thing was just to make sure no one had message spying, everyone got messages as intended, and could respond to them without role shenanigans getting in the way. It also served as a bit of a reaction test, but, /shrugs, didn't really get great info from it other than that SlySly, Tatsuya-slot, Lane, Stargazer, and Expedience did not respond, for whatever reason.

Everyone the replied did so as instructed.

Apologies for my absence. I've been a little sick.
-V

[Grapevine]

Oh.
Embarrassing part of being in a hydra is when your partner reads a message and you don't realize you ever got it.
I had a list and I was crossing out names of people who responded and everything.
Slysly responded as prompted, I'm just a dumbass.


@NC: That's not what I'm saying at all in regards to the situation--I'm not saying the accuser and the accused are town.
I'm saying it's incredibly awkward for a player to see a guilty and then respond, "ARE YOU WILLING TO EAT A LYNCH FOR THAT GUILTY?"
Because, first of all, who the fuck would fake a guilty D2 like that?
Second of all, it establishes pressure/expectation that the accuser will be lynched should the accused flip town.
There's only two straightforward reasons to do that;
1. As scum, you know that you can set up for a situation where town lynches two townies in a row.
2. As town, you're doubtcasting the guilty claim.

Both are anti-town.
That's why I find it scummy, especially coming from Infinity, who doesn't seem to be playing in a way that behooves that sensibility as town.

As far as my reads go, I'm less confident about them in general and I need to touch base with Grapes, which I haven't done since daystart.

[Grapevine]

In what reality does someone claim a guilty and then your immediate reaction is "Willing to be lynched if it flips town?"
Has the whole world gone crazy? Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the actuality of this situation?

Regardless, this is mountains out of fucking molehills. I'd bet my bottom dollar that people using this as a means to scumread me are likely scum hoping to push a lynch because they don't know how the fuck I operate.

-V

[Grapevine]

Now let's be crystal clear:
It's one thing to say, "Ay, Grapevine, what you said is kinda whack. I don't get it."
It's another to say, "You are out of touch with reality, you must be scum."
Does that make sense?
Is anyone seeing the falseflagging as clearly as I am?

[Grapevine]

I'd bet my bottom dollar that people using this as a means to scumread me are likely scum hoping to push a lynch because they don't know how the fuck I operate.

If I knew how you operated (and I was scum), how would I behave differently?

You'd probably not, since, if savvy, you'd be banking on the rest of these ruskins not having meta experience with me.
Regardless, it's a non-issue that we can table for now.

Here's a real issue that we should probably address:
I haven't read the last 8 or so pages.
What's in there?
Also, what's going on in this game in general?
Why hasn't there been a lynch yet?

[Grapevine]

They're like Schrodinger's pages:
They may or may not be filled with total shit and I won't know for sure until I read 'em.
I just worry, y'know, that it'll just be more of the same.

@Math: Why hasn't there been a gazer lynch yet, then?
I saw some votes amassing, then some stalling about it.

[Grapevine]

Sorry I was overtaken by the void for a few.

[Grapevine]

I'm gonna trust creature.

-G

[Grapevine]

Oh.
Embarrassing part of being in a hydra is when your partner reads a message and you don't realize you ever got it.

Terribly sorry about that!

[Grapevine]

I dunno. That gamma flip killed my motivation here.

Probably the one's not keeping an open mind here.

Should I read today's posts?

[Grapevine]

Btw that is a hilarious question coming from you to me.

[Grapevine]

Is Not chara in the house slot?

[Grapevine]

Expe might be scum.

[Grapevine]

Varsoon I told you infinity was probably town.

UNVOTE: [/u]

UNVOTE:

So not everyone was misguided on gamma I'm fairly sure.

AND I WAS REALLY CONVINCING. I almost changed infinities mind and he's a brick wall.

This tells me things.

[Grapevine]

Panther can be scum.

I can't remember a single thing he's said this game other than what infinity just quoted.

[Grapevine]

But expedience shadowed me pretty hard on infinity and then SHEEPING ME ON MY THOUGHTS ON CREATURE EVEN THOUGH I MISQUOTED CREATURE LOOKS PRETTY BAD

I'm still in day 1 btw. I hate reading but I'm going through this slowly.

[Grapevine]

SlySly/Mathblade/Creature/lane0168/Infinity324/House/Dunnstral

Not Chara

PantherPunt/Expedience/StarGazers

(no particular order within the tiers)

[Grapevine]

Grapevine already lost interess in the game? wow

No? Lol. Just busy with other stuff.

I'm about here. There was skimming involved.

Panther can you explain your reads with regards to rule of 3? I'm kinda fuzzy here.

Why isn't anyone replacing into the house slot?

Why is not chara probably scum actually?

If expe is scum then panther is town.

Was the wagon all town? That's hilarious if so.

There's 1 or none. Scum WK'd that shit hard hard.

[Grapevine]

But expedience shadowed me pretty hard on infinity and then SHEEPING ME ON MY THOUGHTS ON CREATURE EVEN THOUGH I MISQUOTED CREATURE LOOKS PRETTY BAD

I'm still in day 1 btw. I hate reading but I'm going through this slowly.

Quote the second thing?

Expedience seems to be progressing through the game naturally, scumhunting without overplaying his scumhunting. Plus I agree with a lot of what he's said since eod1

This:

Spoiler:

Gamma, two players voting you doesn't mean one of them must be scum.

It's the way the wagon formed.

"It's not the wording I want, must be scum"

I don't think I've ever seen creature push on someone like this and he could be scum.

It's a cold shoulder, it's not trying to see things from gamma's side.

Like, I disagree with gamma that early on in RVS "the way" wagons form is very indicative of anything other than being driven by people not concerned with appearances. Which can be an alignment tell for some. But what he's saying is a whole lot more nuanced than "it's not the wording i want"

Yes, actually this is partly what I mean.

Small mundane shit that I remember for whatever reason. But it feels a lot less like exp genuinely conveying they had a similar thought process and more like trying to buddy because what I was saying there is inherently flawed when you make any kind of effort to figure out what I was talking about.

[Grapevine]

Infinity vars and I haven't gotten together about this game since sometime day 1. I understand his read on you, it's a remnant of your early interactions. There's omgus-y feelings going on from both sides and it's stilly and needs to get squashed.

Look at the people who pushed you day 1. Thinking back I don't like the way expedience piggybacked it.

[Grapevine]

Like WHO out of everyone when you got ran up do you think genuinely thought you were a scumbag?

[Grapevine]

Yea I figured that out already.

Lion was a scumfuck.

[Grapevine]

Grapevines wasn't particularly trying to avoid anything, but it seems almost too convenient that he's saying a lot of things which are almost impossible to respond to. It really doesn't feel like he wants to discuss things with me.

You're literally calling them scum because you can't think of a retort to their arguments

"almost too convenient" is not true, and you know it. You don't have any other votes to fall back on.

Where am I appealing to emotion?

555

Piggybacks us HARD here.

"You don't have any other votes to fall back on" is how scum push. Doesn't ask you. Just knows that you're lost in a game where scum are playing well/non-existent and not giving you a chance at all to show/develop some trajectory.

I'm not going to respond to infinity's posts any more because every time he posts there's a new thing and he's already going to get lynched.

And this is bad.

After that gamma got hype and expedience stayed really floaty around that. And I don't know what else they pushed up till EOD.

[Grapevine]

Who do you think is scum sly?

[Grapevine]

Panther can you explain your reads with regards to rule of 3? I'm kinda fuzzy here.

Ya it's a tell I've observed. For some reason scum like to include a bro in their top townreads - typically one where that's popular opinion in the thread.
And like to include a bro in their top scumreads - typically one where that's popular opinion in the thread.

So when looking at Star's earlier list of reads pre-guilty, I took note. When you look at the new list it's basically static except Expedience fell out of the list which was interesting.

I like using it as a basis to look at those groupings as compared to my own reads

What's your read on expedience?

[Grapevine]

Stargazers is scum

Well yea. Is that your only read?

[Grapevine]

I remember agreeing with a lot of what expedience said after they stopped tunneling me

And iirc expedience was pushing me before that?

Anyway I can see town getting suspicious of someone not having only one solid scumread which wasn't even that strong to begin with.

Yea expe was part of the initial string of naked votes you got.

And then I noticed a quote wall calling you scum a bunch of times.

Like I realized I pushed pretty hard on you; but was it ever unfair? Did I ever stop trying to interact with you?

It's why I sorta understand your position here. If you're town and I shaped up my read on you. But did most of the heavy lifting with the push, you're gonna hold onto more omgus for us then someone like expe who didn't do shit except toss shade your way and bail out once it wasn't looking like it was going anywhere anymore.

WE HAD THOSE INTERACTIONS

[Grapevine]

StarGazers + Expedience + Grapevine looks fair.

You're close. Who's scum with them if we're town, creature?

[Grapevine]

Panther you've needed to relook at half the game since you replaced in.

You seem to have a decent grasp of the gamestate.

Who's scum with stargazers?

[Grapevine]

@Grape: Add infinity to that list as well since he found it so important to include his pseudo-hammer post.

I get you oldschool lot with your things like this that you truly hold dear. But he's unfortunately town here.

I also don't think there's more than one scum on the gamma wagon. They didn't have a reason to get their hands dirty with that at all.

I pushed it mad loud. And infinity defended it loud. Scum stayed away.

[Grapevine]

Right I recall that but I'm saying that you're offbase with infinity.

And I agree with you. But you're saying you think the whole team decided to pile when it was propelled by mostly town voices.

[Grapevine]

No idea, I am considering others.

Why do you think we're scum? When did that develop?

[Grapevine]

So yea it's pretty much star/chara and one of expe/panther.

We've got intent to hammer once Aqua reads up. Welcome btw!

[Grapevine]

Creature that's not an answer to my question dude.

[Grapevine]

{dunn, panther, sly}. I haven't given anybody in particular a hard look yet though, or thought about association at all, so that is subject to change.

None of these make sense except panther kinda.

[Grapevine]

read Grapevine. i like them.
it actually made me like Expedience less rather than increase my scumread on Grapevine. why doesn't Varsoon feel like he's trying to gamesolve?

What does one of us have to do with the other?

[Grapevine]

Creature that's not an answer to my question dude.

Do you want to pursue this before the lynch?

Not particularly it's just annoying. heh

[Grapevine]

I think chara has redeemed that slot a good amount last page or so.

[Grapevine]

VOTE: Stargazers

We be draggin at this point.

[Grapevine]

which question?

I asked him why he's scumreading us and when it developed and he literally quoted infinity saying his read all has to do with varsoon.

Varsoon's posts have been town as shit.

[Grapevine]

Why did two people die?

Vig or sk would be my guess.

I did it. I killed Infinity.
I got a 'Trojan' that allowed me a one-shot vig, at the start of D2. I don't know how I got it, the mod just told me that I did.
Infinity was a liability if town and a problem if scum. I couldn't go into LYLO with them or I'd be unable to make an unbiased decision.

^was me

Did you get something?
I have other abilities, tied to my role, that allow me to hack extra good, but I don't want to waste them on this if there's nothing to be gained.
I was planning on profiling and hacking anyone who was put at L-1 yesterday, but I wasn't around for that, so it didn't happen.

-V

[Grapevine]

Basically, if we plan to lynch anyone, please give me time to hack them and take their item.
Town, if inevitable to be lynched, should time a claim of their item so that another town player can hack it and get it before they die.
Scum or anyone who doesn't claim an item can be left up to me, because I can hack and item without having to know what security slot it is in.

-V

[Grapevine]

This is assuming that I understand how all these profiling/hacking/security mechanics work. I might be wrong.
I know 100% how my role mechanics and the Trojan that I used work, though.

-V

[Grapevine]

Apologies for killing you, Infinity. Next time, be less waffly with your reads, especially if you OMGUS someone as stubborn as me.
I set the kill as tentative, but Grapes never got back to me with a better suggestion. I wish I had hit scum, but I am okay with Infinity not being a liability any more, especially so if claiming this information allows me to be townread or killed tonight.

-V

[Grapevine]

That's probably for the best--it gives scum minimal time to hack it from you, should the mechanics work the way I think they do.

[Grapevine]

(Also, even if you didn't get an item, I think the smart thing to do is to claim you did, so that scumfucks waste their hacks on something that isn't there.)

-V

[Grapevine]

I've already claimed mine out.
VOTE: PantherPunt

[Grapevine]

I've submitted my advanced profiler and hack to the mod.
If Panther has any items, they are now mine.

-V

[Grapevine]

Dunno I'll iso panther. I know expe did push on pather but that doesn't mean much without putting it under a microscope.

[Grapevine]

Dunn - funny. and borderline borderline

Hmm.

[Grapevine]

Yea we do.

[Grapevine]

lane's still town btw sly

[Grapevine]

What I mean is that even if one of us is scum, town won't let the wagon end in a lynch that early, at some point it'll die.

That's a bullshit assumption.

pure commentary mode here..................

Hmm.

[Grapevine]

Oh don't mind me I'll rpobably disapear again soon myself it's just everyone's thoughts are appreciated.

I'm not sold on it being expe.

[Grapevine]

Who are in the house/lion slots? Because it's between there pretty sure.

[Grapevine]

chara is lion. i remember that it towned up a bit. house is aquanim and i don't remember much of anything from them

[Grapevine]

Okay yea this is the last scum.

VOTE: Aquanim

[Grapevine]

Very weak iso. I'll check out house's posts. But that panther post is the first time he mentions house and it looks distancy.

[Grapevine]

This game I learned why I must be more solid on my reads.

Yea assuming you're not pulling like, the most suicidal gambit ever this game's been all you so far man.

[Grapevine]

I hacked an Android from Pantherpunt. It lets me make someone loved for a single day.
Not amazingly useful, but it could serve some purpose.

-V

[Grapevine]

VOTE: Aquanim
It's loved--as in, one extra vote to lynch.
And I killed infinity because they clouded my judgment and were just as likely to flip scum from my PoV.

-V

[Grapevine]

Dude I already voted him. LOL

[Grapevine]

Let's hammer this win home already boys.

[Grapevine]

Giving players a hack once per day/night phase would be a neat way to do it. Alternatively, make it a non-consecutive action.
As always, with unique mechanics, design the mechanics first then build the roles around the mechanics.
As always with cops, they are a role I don't like a ton. Makes the game more mechanical than rhetorical, imo.
I enjoyed this game. Hydra'ing with grapes was a fantastic time, too.

I would've wanted an NC lynch down the line. The amount that they were sticking up for me along with calling the Creature clears into doubt, coupled with claiming traitor to people? Far too sketchy.

-V

[Grapevine]

Not shooting Creature was some combination of the possibility he was 1-shot, knowing Math had a PR, and the probability that Creature was protected anyway.

Every game, some Cop or 'confirmed town' avoids being killed solely because scum WIFOM themselves and end up making bad decisions for it.
As far as the Infinity kill, it was justified. It cut down on slots people weren't sure about and, I feel, propelled me into being mostly townread.
Sorry I couldn't impress you and make this a game where town wins 100% due to their roles and not due to their rhetorical play.

-V

[Grapevine]

does anyone have suggestions for what i should have done differently?

Someone else said to claim Miller, but that's a death warrant in LYLO anyway.
If the game is a closed, non-normal setup like this, then you can easily claim that your ROLE tells you the scum team has a traitor. You'll look town for exposing that information (unless you botch it horribly) and you might even draw a protective if you're able to fabricate a good enough fake-claim with how your role interacts with the Traitor. Of course, you can't outright say something like, "I am informed of a traitor and if I am alive, they can't join the scum team" because that might just draw the scum kill to you. There'd have to be some precision to claiming it, but sharing that sort of limited information trends towards looking town on-site. Furthermore, if your team isn't a bunch of dumbasses, they'll realize you're the traitor and that's how you know.

Your biggest mistake here was assuming information that wasn't on your rolecard. You assumed the mafia was informed that there was a traitor. If something isn't made explicit to you and you're unsure, ask the mod. If it's still not clear, assume it isn't so.

-V

[Grapevine]

either way, thanks for the information. armed with this knowledge, i will

surely

...

never, ever, roll traitor again.

Even if you don't roll traitor again (there are plenty of people on-site who have never rolled scum at all!), you can use this approach to getting around claiming your role while still outing it and allowing discussion of it. For instance, you can act like a backup to the role you actually have. "My role informs me that there is a cop in the setup, so I'd like people to claim before we lynch them" can be a good way to essentially let town know there's a cop running around but imply that you're not the cop while still letting you crumb your results. People love to talk about how roles should be directed, so it can be very informative to claim knowledge-of-a-role-that's-actually-your-own and then put up for discussion, "We should talk about how this role should be directed." Like, for instance, I was a vigilante in a game once and I outted, "I know there's a vig in this setup due to my role. I don't want them to claim, but if everyone could post who they think we should vig, it could help that player out a lot." That sort of thing not just allows you to inform your own action, but it lets you see how people respond, which can inform your reads as well.

[Grapevine]

That said, this only truly works in closed, unique setups.
If you're in a closed normal setup, you can at least claim Backup Cop or Backup Doctor, although that may not draw the sorts of attention you want, protection and kill-wise.
If I was scum and someone claimed backup doctor, I probably wouldn't kill them, though. I'd be busy trying to hit the real doctor.

-V

[Grapevine]

In open normals, fake-claiming is awful and all info should be above the board.
I don't like those kinds of games though. They're game rhetoric gets superseded by the mechanical rhetoric due to the site-meta; there's such a strong reliance on PRs to 'solve' a game, as if they are integral to doing so. This allows for savvy scum to fake-claim and snow town, but it also makes the actual 'play' of the game shift into this space where you're talking about most efficient role use rather than playing the usual rhetorical game of mafia, which I feel is all about presentation of self, forming reads based on others' presentations, and committing to eliminating those who most poorly fail to render themselves, rhetorically, as town. That still happens in the mechanics-heavy game, but players are heavily rendered as town simply due to the nature of their roles and not the quality of their rhetoric.

-V

[Grapevine]

Ugh, wrong they're/their, there. I was originally typing a different kind of sentence and I didn't backspace all the way.

[Grapevine]

<3

Any time. I don't know how great of a player I am, but I do know people's sensibilities and the site-meta pretty well, having moderated several closed, theme setups and followed/played in quite a few opens and normals.

-V