Newbie 1769: Happy New Year! (Post-Game)

[cassielle]

hey guys! i been stalking thread, let me read through the things a second time from an in-game perspective before you string me up like some unnatural thing from the pits of hells or w/e. ill make a big ol catch up post and we can see if you get some more reads out of it yeah?

[cassielle]

notes toward a reads list, p3:

rask is doing a lot of head-nodding, automated yesman behavior. "yeah, uh-huh, yep" with really shallow concerns tacked on. 58 and 61 and 64 are a lot of using slow-time to get all nice and snuggled up to gbT.

this point, rask is top scumread, creature is townread because A: i dont know anyone of these folks and i trust their knowledge of him, B: he isn't doing anything overtly alarm-bells-ringing. gbT i like the play of but am saying is null.

im really feeling post 69: tb is getting a lot of people jumping on him with both feet but i dont see it -- idk, maybe its just because i prefer rqs to rvs by far.

actually, no, screw that.

WTF is town doing trying to keep people from putting info out? scum knows all, town is not omniscient. scum has a vested interest in shutting down info-generating discussion, town DOES NOT. it also is sorta bad for the noobs -- they dont have an opportunity to say where they are curious about things without actively putting themselves out front role wise or etc. thats a pro-scum attitude, if not precisely anti-town.

gbT moves to top scumread, rask pushed up to nullscum. if i dont see something good at the end of this, im gonna vote gbT and let the chips fall where they may even with my predecessors lurking giving me a bad rep -- because thats insipid af, what is wrong with you if you're town, you should know better esp as ive read some your other games!

end of p3: nothing. gbT im parking my vote on you while i keep reading back through. explain yoself pal

earlygame readslist

townie:
creature
mbg, tb<---less certain here but not enough to be nulltown or townlean on. theyre very protown in actions but SO LITTLE TO WORK ON

null:
everyone else for real this game is a slow burner???

nullscum:
rask

scummy af for real consider the lynch on this slot:
gbT

back to reading, p4 and onward!

VOTE: gigabyteTroubadour

[cassielle]

some explanations coming down the pipe on p4 but i dont buy it:

1: noobtown seems to lean toward the paranoid side. theyd see q4 and dive deep into the ocean of WIFOM madness and decide its best to just pick a role that isnt theirs, or they wouldnt care and the mafia learns absolutely nothing even despite that. certainly no ones gonna ask about vt, how the hell can this be rolefishin since everybody gonna pick a p common role most likely but no ones gonna say vt? scumscuse for anti-town behavior imo

2: post 89????? "i should know, i caught my first scum with RQS" ???????? wtf? ok then why would oyu shut it down if its a good noob-friendly way of catching scum? WORST CASE SCENARIO: you that concerned with q no. 4? then say "EXCEPT DONT ANSWER THIS K". this is silly and ridiculous and omg im gonna aneurysm over here.

also noticing a lot of strong townreads from gbT but v weak scumreads, which is a tactic i employ as scum. you have perfect knowledge and you want to hide that, but you also have to look like youre contributing. this guy gets 4 perfect townreads by p4, but doesnt have any good scumreads? yeah no not buying that garbage.

im callin you out gbT, im comin for your face pal, youre scum af

end p4. p5:

gbT gets 5th TR and still has really low standards for scum? bs. i dont buy that for a minute. even if two slots are lurky youre gonna get a bit on the paranoid side about folks and this is literally just gbT jumping up and down on TB because SURE LETS DENY TOWN A DISCUSSION POINT AND SOURCE OF INFO WHY NOT. two answers and he shuts it down without even fully buying into his own reasoning and trying to get the hamster to pull that wagon into town, gtfo of here with that.

GAYreenHamster is giving me strong af townvibes all over the place, not liking that shes turning to gbT as source of info/townleader tho

speaking of which why tf is gbT townleader here at all? BECAUSE TALKATIVE SCUM????? hes not contibuting anything but townreads and post 108 "closest thing i have to a scumread" (tb)??? pls you got it down to 3 possibles and youre still gonna say you only suspect one even with the lurkin? at the very least here youd recognize that one of the two lurks is more likely to be town than not and that youre vibing with someone you shouldnt be (oh wait youre scum nvm lol)

am more certain after 110: getting bored, no suspicion in their direction, trying to encourage people to read past games so theyll see their town game and get suspicious (and i did). wants to have a chance of losing but everybody tiptoing around the subject and/or sheeping. creature should be townleader where the hell are you friend?????

schadd_ giving me scummy vibes in post 112. pushing that bs about rolefishing after p much everyone else was dismissive of is kind of like, uh what this has been considered possible but unlikely and easily defeated even by noobs??? also dismissing softclaims in an overly WIFOM-aware way, smells like S C U M. down to nullscum you go pal

gbT trying to test the waters with how far they can make people sheep them in 115, seriously now. why was this not discussed? oh yeah because schadd_ legitimized it. S C U M B U D D I E S

rask fighting with gbT after p3 buddy-buddy friendly times. could be town getting genuinely pissed at misread (leaning this way) or distancing (very likely but not as likely imo). still nullscum pal

end of p5

reads list:
TOWN:
creature
mbg, tb
gayreen

NULL:
shade

NULLSCUM:
rask
schadd_<--- scummier nullscum than the other nullscum, break out that mr clean and well see about fixing that tho

SCUM NOT EVEN SCRUBBING BUBBLES WILL REMOVE, LYNCH IT QUICK FRIENDS:
gbT

also which games have you read of mine

because then you'd know that that's something I believe

i think your most recent noob game with FC and that one other guy who siteflaked on scumteam. you arent playing your town role one bit here

but yeah i def believe you dislike the kumbaya game and i appreciate that big time, i was fingerscrossed hoping id get in a game with you lmao

and its funny first read through i wasnt paying much attention and you came off ultratown because i never read that other thread. come back and scumflags like we got mildew hanging from the battered walls of this messed up old shack sorta deal, lol

[cassielle]

wrapping it up relatively quicklike. i got strong scumdar pings on gbT, schadd_ and rask.

heres what i want from you guys:

gbT; why didn't you find a way to use those questions to get info, or at least continue with a diff RQS set?

you admit its a good idea shortly after killing it dead, but do nothing to replace it? no, sorry, i dont buy it. you could have kept it going in the background while developing good reads, but you jumped on TB and stopped that train cold. i want a good answer. im halfway leaning toward starting a new q&a session here and seeing how you react lol

schadd_; really, i just want you to explain your reads in detail, like, fullstop. theyre not feeling nice to me, im not liking them one bit. convince me you came by them honestly

rask; explain that out of thin air l-1 crap pls? yeah sur eit was really l-2, but you didnt know that so wtf? explain yourself, what on earth was the point of it, why did you do it? why did you expect tb to be a good candidate for that kind of pressure even???

moving on!

i am following creature's thought process on shade. scum votes that way, its why i am eyeing rask with steel in my eyes and a burning boiling need to destroy in my heart in the first place. but theres little enough to go off of that idk, i havent a clue in fact, its more a gut read than a logical "prob scum yeah" thought process.

my mbg read has dropped to nullscum on a doublecheck and rethink of reasoning. the anarchist vibes are likely a personality trait shinign through in general (see avatar), and his reads list is heavily floated toward the middle with few actually dead center purenull -- and those who are at the middle are the strongest of townreads imo. hes prob not on the scum team but hes not exactly playing pro-town. also not getting purenoob vibes, so theres something to be said for that.

final reads list:

TOWN:
creature
gayreen

NULL:
tb

NULLSCUM:
mbg, shade
schadd_, rask <-- ultra scummy nullscum but im not hard-sold on these like i could be

THE SEVENTH CIRCLE
...

tb

^is this townread associative off of me or based on play?

originally associative + early game play. as his play dropped off after his claim, his standards slipped and im no longer comfortable with him where he was.

^ last time i criticized an rqs i felt was bad

(they flipped town but still, case can be right, flip wrong)

that doesnt bolster your case in the least. give my above q's some attention please, id really like to believe you arent scum because i was looking forward to playing with you ahaha

final thoughts before life^tm

i'd like to know more about your rask read

cass, cassie?

avatar would be nice btw pretty sure you're not going to flake

not a he

~<3

rask read is a bit gut, a bit of the p3 buddy buddy time, a WHOLE LOT of the "hey lets just put tb on l-1 JUST BECAUSE" (even if wrong) because wtf is that about???

cass works

avatar would be nice but i want something very specific that i prob wont find easily. have to save up money for an art commission from someone awesome probably, or just try to do it myself in Paint.net but thats unlikely to end up in anything but sadness

[cassielle]

final thoughts before life^tm

i'd like to know more about your rask read

cass, cassie?

avatar would be nice btw pretty sure you're not going to flake

not a he

~<3

oh whoops i didnt even realize that last bit (i was so confused????) -- i caught myself doing it at first and rewrote around it a few times (risking appearing to tunnel but w/e i dont like misgendering people) but i could have sworn i fixed that in my second post. mega sorry about that

[cassielle]

regarding info to get from those questions:

first off, it sets up a baseline and makes sure you know everyones experience level. id have followed it up with an experienced-folks-only question set involving who theyve played with before and what pointers they can give about town/scum metas, but thats just because i would want to level that playing field information-wise -- ses and ic have an advantage in knowing some of their counterparts, noobs are just about completely unaware of everyone.

secondly (less important from a game perspective, more important from a learning perspective) it gives everyone an opening to ask about roles they dont understand to the ic without unintentionally (even unknowingly) softing themselves as that role -- because EVERYONE is doing it and MOST are going to be vt or scum! that gives noobs a leg up that the experienced folks already have, without shifting balance. important later, though not immediately.

third, you can always jump on random peoples questions and request followups. avoid q4 and you avoid looking like youre rolefishing. and by doing this you can grab onto anyones questions list as a thread to tug at if you want more info but dont want to be tugging on the latest discussion threads for whatever reason (cornering a suspicious player into a position, etc). it gives town a powerful tool by forcing everyone to put a bit of themselves up front at the start in a way that rvs doesnt quite do. furthermore, while you cant ask a latecomer to engage in rvs for tells, you can ask them to fill out the standard q&a sheet everyone else has got to drag info out of them. its easy to dodge a "oh whats your reads list" at this stage just coming in, too lazy to do a deep re-read or w/e you want really. it corners the lurkers into making a move that people can latch onto later if necessary, which (as you saw with my predecessor lol) isnt as easy without it.

ill seriously consider rqs 2.0 still, but im gonna wait for your reaction to this post.

p-edit: im ok with shade, but id WAY prefer schadd_, gbT or rask. moreso schadd_ or rask atm, im getting info out of gbT!

and yeah @gbT you totally strike me that way, imo were actually quite a lot alike haha

[cassielle]

im on board with most of these, but imo post 53 schadd_ is pure evil, its a quiet way of asking "is it a good play to off the IC for mafia?" like, the best you could say is NAI, to me it comes off as ultrascum

[cassielle]

interesting points to make:

1: TB dropped off at roughly your last post you quoted from him (pre-claim, the IIoA bit), quality wise. that struck me as buzzwordy (even if true!) and from there hes tumbled downhill and lately turned into a bit of a flaky lurker from what ive read. its what changed him from being almost obvtown to null for me. all his early posts still feel ultra townie tho

2: rask took ages to get scumhunting yeah and it feels halfassed -- he jumped on that l-1 with little discussion. most of the supposed townblock was on that vote, so if he had actually been l-2 the scum could have had their weaker link lolhammer and end it -- they take out a weak player to keep discussion flowing, the hammerer could have said "i thought i checked the count and it was l-2" (which it was!) as a safety net. then his further scumhunting has been PoE, which is very poor in this game because everyone is so focused on townreads when its all about killing them scum that want to look town to start with baby

3: schadd_ post 53 thing.

4: GAYreen feels like a good bet for obv-town in my book. this seems to be easy to agree on. nothing about GAYreen says "shifty", it says noob-nervous, a bit of sheeping but a lot of honest curiosity and finding your sea legs so to speak as well.

p-edit: what? planned it? checking

[cassielle]

i dont see how Shade planned his first post. the ISO looks weird af though, definitely.

i think that bit from 225 is NAI, town wants to know that (because of easy win condition) but scum also wants to know that (say if theyre on a double-noob scumteam?) and the response is also NAI imo

[cassielle]

main reason i disagree: someone is going to think, "hey, im here to learn. so no matter what role i get, im going to want a mentor figure, right?" and then they look at their scumteam and see they have another noob, and theyre like "wait what? who the hell is going to help teach me this stuff???" so theyre gonna feel out of their depth. and because its a noob game they might feel someone messed up somewhere down the line and they got saddled with a second noob by mistake. but saying that in the thread is guarantee-lynch, so they ask "so would the scum have an SE or IC on their team always?"

i think itll be a 2-noob team if hes scum.

p-edit: mbg's read lists are ugly. let me look for his second readlist, its a MESS. it also DOES NOT follow from his first list in the least.

[cassielle]

sorry that was his second. meant his first. behold:

So far I read both Rask, and Giga as town. To me it seems like Rask is trying to put some pressure on ThinkBig, and get more analysis from people, which seems like a town thing to do. I can't seem to put into words why I think Giga is town besides the fact that I think all of thier posts seem pro-town.(sorry for vagueness :/)

At first I didn't think anything of ThinkBig asking questions but him claiming at L-2 seemed very odd to me. Like (1) I don't think anyone had intent to lynch him especially when we have 13 days left in the day, still have plenty of discussion left, and 2 people still haven't posted. (2) A vanilla townie claim doesn't really have much weight to it, because wouldn't everyone claim vanilla townie on day 1? It's not like a power role would claim their actual role day 1 because they would know they would die that night, and all mafia would also claim vanilla townie.

I'm not sure what to think about Creature at the moment. It seems he's being vague with all his posts, and can't get a read on him.

Everyone else I'm pretty much null on.

(sorry if my reads/analysis sucks. I'm just typing what comes to mind, and would very much appreciate feedback on how I can improve)

p-edit: id say overconfident is best case scenario, but id rather have your take (considering conftown)

[cassielle]

Oh wow, this Shade guy finally scum hunt, but it's actually just an empty vote.

anyway I like to see what will happen if I just vote Thinkbig

VOTE: Vote : ThinkBig

This is L2 I believe.

What do you think will happen?

lol you actually responded that way to him originally too. yeah shades def nullscum for me, same tier as mbg, for that very reason among the others youve mentioned. i dont think the response to your original response was worth treating from a town perspective, its not indignant so much as joking, with a thin and easily made up reasoning for the vote underneath

[cassielle]

noobscum imo:

will panic and flounder a bit. they dont have guidance until night-talk.

will lurk a lot.

are going to be self-analytical, watching their words, persona, actions, etc.

will tend toward posts with polished presentation, low content, high word count.

will flail with reads (massive back and forth).

p-edit: i love that rask forgot to cross himself on that list lol -- sure, its final, but unless you didnt get a town role pm you should never want to keep your slot open to questioning. ever. you have no reason, it muddies the waters.

[cassielle]

oh and noobscum will also react poorly to being pressured/questioned because they have to just bs until something sticks, but they also cant be too inconsistent

p-edit: also had that vibe

[cassielle]

no way he forgot. question marks by al lthe others, but not on his name. hes saying he isnt scum (thats the question marks) but forgot to say he is def town as well (crossing out). i was surprised no one saw that.

[cassielle]

re: paranoia: thats fair, but idk, i got no reason to act concerned by your paranoia i think? i back my stuff up and i definitely am not about to do anything anti-town (and hell if im acting anti town call me out).

tho if youre worried about the gbT part of my scumreads, id say pay attention after their next response tbh.

re: rask stuff: i think def messing up, but that combined with other behavior brings to mind huge scum. which is why hes in my top 3. id say give him a chance to wiggle out just in case but def lock his views/statements/stances down lol

[cassielle]

used to, it was a few years back and the records are sadly gone. the sites live but the community is too toxic for my tastes so i never bothered returning

[cassielle]

i think its fair to in the very early game so you can put the focus on the best leads, but you should always re-analyze and the bulk of posts should make up your decision. in cases where its NAI or WIFOM for most posts, you can approach a townread from one or two posts but imo it should be a weak one. townlean at best.

[cassielle]

actually, excluding gbT id like a condensed prelim reads list from you creature, just for compare and contrast purposes. ill do the same:

TOWNIEST
creature
gayreen
tb
mbg
shade
schadd_
rask
SCUMMIEST

and if you could your preferred scumteam pairings.

[cassielle]

im down with that. VOTE: Raskolnikov

[cassielle]

curious on the schadd_ thing. anything you can pinpoint for that townlean other than post 53 (which is sorta NAI)?

i can agree on the rest.

[cassielle]

fits with what im seeing then. youre conftown from where im sitting so i think this is a very good start.

[cassielle]

i still want my response from gbT before i make any further judgments. i have a suspicion i know the response and have a secondary read on them im holding back for that reason. i was crumbing in the reads list in my last gigantuous wallpost from catching up for that reason -- they werent on the list, but that spot (THE SEVENTH CIRCLE) is def reserved, yeah? so yeah, im waiting on gbT before i make another read on them. for now you can assume i consider them ultrascum still tho

[cassielle]

i wouldnt call myself among the power players (i actually had a tendency to get mled d1 as town and coast to endgame as scum, it was a very mellow site meta) but i know how the game is played and this site's meta seems more in tune with my playstyle anyhow.

i hope you are giving my question thought? im not the only one coming to you being in the top scumteam here and the other is all but conftown so i mean, yeah

[cassielle]

GAYreen is obvtown and youre dodging my question. here let me quote it for you

rask; explain that out of thin air l-1 crap pls? yeah sur eit was really l-2, but you didnt know that so wtf? explain yourself, what on earth was the point of it, why did you do it? why did you expect tb to be a good candidate for that kind of pressure even???

if you cant give me a really great and wonderful explanation for this im not seeing any reason not to push the lynch on you. if you can, well, im p sure i can put together a good list to make sure we get your record all squeaky clean.

[cassielle]

right, except why was tb the main scumlead there? i had you (oh, right) and gbT as potentials well before that point. also schadd_ was a potential. mbg's hard to read-ish but he's lurky and his reads are at least passably anti-town. why not go for literally any of these? i mean, sure, tb's wagon had momentum, but i did not get this scumread that caused the momentum.

lets assume no one but me had a scumread on gbT: you were sheeping them in that case. why? its not even a super good argument, esp when tb didnt push for his rqs to continue when it got stopped???

so really, tell me: why did you want to apply that pressure? why did you "need" those good reactions there?

and GAYreen said but did not act upon. in fact said she wouldnt feel right doing it, implying it wasnt a situation worthy of it. it was a lot of sheeping and looking for gold stars imo, which is common for noobs in general. slightly anti-town? sure. active scummy? not so much.

you on the other hand have other reasons to suspect. this is just the one that i feel is most pressing, most worthy of attention.

[cassielle]

im not casting doubt on you based purely on read differences. im asking you to explain 1: the read on tb that made him so obvscum. 2: the reason that read overshadowed other potential reads from the same time period or earlier.

HOWEVER, if town cant agree on their reads, pushing for a lynch is going to end badly every time. thats why i was comparing and contrasting with creature -- if we can come to a shared conclusion after some back and forth, each of our reads are that much stronger together than they would be otherwise and the scum have that much more trouble hiding. ofc obvsheeping should be called out and reasoning should be asked for. not everyone uses the same rules of inference and cloned reasoning should stand out on that basis. that doesnt mean we cant say that putting obvtown in the scumlist is weird af, because it is. it means youre quite prob blind to what the others are seeing and need to re-evaluate, are seeing something the others arent and need to share, or are very prob scum.

[cassielle]

maybe i wasnt clear on that first part, so:

it isnt read differences that im getting on your case about, it is the good-faith coming to those reads. same as schadd_ -- the read feels like there no weight behind it, like its something that you pulled out of a hat (or out of someone else's post...) and that is something you can definitely prove is not the case by detailing your reasoning. that wagon is dead, long gone, you have no reason to hide the reasoning now, the situation is "fixed", it cannot be "fixed" any further by you dropping info that could get the wagon off of him potentially -- because, er, its gone. it doesnt let scum borrowing your reasoning in order to sheep because, ah, no ones on that wagon. so why havent you just come out and stated it? that doesnt feel town, at best its very anti-town, which doesnt make you look good at all.

[cassielle]

generally they get to l-2 (without any unintentional (or fake) l-1 votes) and either peter out or go for a lynch after some discussion. however, ive read site meta here and i know thats not how it works, esp with much longer days. and im not assuming it is.

my contention: you wanted information. WHY did you want that information? part one of my last question, namely "1: the read on tb that made him so obvscum." you could have pressed on anyone else for info. why him in particular? ignore the weight of the wagon, what made you want him to talk instead of someone else?

[cassielle]

shade came in after your vote im p sure, so hed be no 3. alright, i can tentatively accept this. ill let creature ask you to address his personal major question before i jump back in with number 2. in the mean time: why do you suspect GAYreen?? like at all? its pretty generally agreed GAYreen is obv noobtown afaict, so you either saw something we didnt or need to be shown something you didnt see

[cassielle]

i cant see the meta either, but theres a lot of very noobtown behavior. from a more advanced player some of it reads as scum, but theres a lot of towntells, things like #87 and #91, #101 too with the whole not wanting to go against the town leaders thing -- it doesnt have the stink of scum sheeping, it feels like an honest noob taking direction from the people in charge. VERY slow to jump on that active wagon and got scared last min. scum is usually on the wagon and thered be a lot weirder behavior under even minor pressure i feel. its more of a mood thing -- not quite a gut read, but a tone read. 199 betrays a non-omniscient frame of mind, remembering that you dont know anything is a light towntell. it goes on, and none of it alone is much but it all adds up to obvtown.

[cassielle]

ftr im not currently defending or backing down on my gbT reads. im waiting on their response.

regarding my reads on you: the little bit of WIFOM-awareness in there was like, cherry on top? its not a strong aspect of what im working off of atm. theres also post 53's sheer evil (NAI at /best/ but no town wants to know that for town reasons imo, the best hope is sheer curiosity) and your really strange reads list.

i havent seen any of your reasoning for your reads. i cant parse the reasoning behind a fair few. your iso turns up some stuff on shade. just shade. and something to do with GAYreen but you never expand on it, you just essentially say "because i dont like them" so it may as well be nothing. theres nothing on rask being a nulltown or townlean, or mbg for that matter. theres no real reasoning to your hard scumread on tb beyond the question thing, which i and creature (and maybe others?) agree has a town-look to it.

besides those three, nothing. with my slot thats cool, w/e. creature, makes sense, no ones gonna question creature too closely. with the rest, wow, idk, thats why im asking you to tell me your reasoning, because i am not sure you actually have any. scum cant make up good reasons on the fly, town know their reasons.

[cassielle]

im going to try to sleep, sick lately. might be back in anywhere from 1 hr to 9 hrs.

something to think about tho for my scumreads: me calling you out is a chance for you to get yourselves off the hook. i am not tunneling in on you, i am aggressively pursuing players who ping my scumdar heavily. this is a chance for you to convince me those were misfires, and i am not an unreasonable person. scum will find my questions difficult. town knows why they do things, they should not have much trouble with them. im hoping at least one of you is scum, gonna be honest, but itd be nice to sort out the at least one innocent from the pile early on so we can take this game by end of d2, so im sure hoping you guys understand i dont want you to fight me, i want you to convince me. things will go quicker like that, js.

[cassielle]

just woke up. gonna let tb catch up and give us some meat because we sure af dont got any on him atm

schadd_ feeling more null to me atm tho, rask read has not budged. shade & schadd_ swap places p much from where im sitting. will go into detail when tb catches up.

[cassielle]

actually we need more input from you too so

i was mixing things up on your reads list first off -- does follow, still reasonably easy to call anti-town. the whole thing initially revolved around the middle, 0 hard reads. thats solid anti-town to light scumtell depending on the rest of players game. not too long after you put down a readslist that is gamesolve, which means youre either way cocky or you were pretending not to know anyones role (which would be massive scumtell)

the whole anarchist vibe thing -- you got this tendency to not follow the leader very much in general, the sheeping giga was super late (p14 to p15 roughly, as creature noticed) so i can buy that you came to that honestly and it doesnt strike me as going against the "fuck da police" thing. my reads on you are based on your reads list, low-content posts, and low post count mostly, which is why you run light nullscum atm

[cassielle]

really wanting to see a lot more from tb and mbg today. also really wanting creature to put forward his first case vs rask because i dont think we have the same reasons for our placement of him and i dont think ive made my case stronger with the first set of questions.

reminder: tb, you said youre reading back through. everyone wants you to contribute more today. everyone is watching your slot. you have been all but totally nonexistent, and its made my initial townread hit null because wtf? please post something in depth before tomorrow. idc if youve had a chance to read everything necessarily, theres a lot there and its prob overwhelming. just give us something, anything with some meat on it, none of this delaying tactics crap we been getting from your direction since your claim

[cassielle]

mod: creature also voted rask

[cassielle]

putting some thoughts out there while i wait on more content.

schadd_ has convinced me his reads (the main no. 1 reason he pinged as scum to me) are valid and honestly made. i dont agree with most of them but i feel that he and i also have opposed styles of reading people. i make strong judgements and then build on them or leave it null, he seems to build a baseline then adjust with strong judgements -- and with that and the small pool of info to work with in general from certain players this game, im gonna say that its very likely were weak-reading people oppositely but both putting it forward as way stronger than it should be because theres so little to make a strong opinion on to begin with.

last real concern i have with schadd_ is the lack of posting. activity is low, below GAYreen even. low word count high content makes me feel townie on him in general tho -- every post he makes stands out and because theres a small number of posts from him its easy to get polarized (strong conclusions from small sample size, etc.)

i want to go through his reads list because i feel like theres some inconsistency there idk but the time isnt right. still waiting on two people to provide content asap and i really want to drag a longwinded wallpost out of shade at some point too. harder to do that the more i focus on a strong townlean imo, because then im putting the pressure on the wrong folks.

current reads list sans gbT (as stated, waiting on them before i approach that again)

TOWN
creature
gayreen

NULLTOWN
schadd_

NULLSCUM
tb, mbg

SCUM
shade, rask

[cassielle]

id try to stay active, call them out repeatedly. dont let them off the hook -- if i see them post, jump on it, try and pull something out of them while theyre present. if theyre not posting, keep adding clear reminders that i want them to post whenever i post something.

lurkers gonna lurk, the best you can do is make them look bad for continuing to lurk, imo

which is why im really pressing hard on mbg and tb, i want those two to post like asap, i want them active, engaged and involved so i can get good reads and everyone else can draw better supported conclusions

p-edit: as far as continuing to lean on you, i dont really feel thats a good idea juuuust yet. i want creature to put some pressure on, because ive just eased up. yeah its good cop bad cop of a sort but that works even when youre aware of it happening, so idc really about putting that in the open. also im uncertain my case is as strong as i thought it was now if im being honest but youre still giving strong scumvibes. creature said to beware folks inflating postcount way back and im getting that vibe from you, for instance. among other things, but im gonna keep that back while i work on outlining my case better.

but you sure af could look a lot better by stopping this 20 1liner post bs and focusing on content more imo, this feels like mass fluff and youre not making your case any better looking

p-edit 2: at the very least you could do as schadd_ did and do a post outlining the why of each read, thatd be a great and easy way to prove your reads are good-faith and not shallow

also: hi tb! looking forward to that reads list

[cassielle]

problem is theres no content atm to draw conclusions from? i think thats very fair to say, your past page of posts or thereabouts is fluffy and i cant pull anything out of it. condensing the posts into larger ones would force you to flesh out the thought processes youre following more, thats why im pushing for that.

and yeah talking about townreads is boring but when half of your trs are half of my srs it becomes a whole lot more interesting, dont you think?

[cassielle]

ok, lets talk about matt. also: TB's list is a real interesting looking one and i cannot wait for his explanation, because it feels ultra shallow. im holding him to that promise of expanding on the list.

[cassielle]

noobscum imo:

will panic and flounder a bit. they dont have guidance until night-talk.

will lurk a lot.

are going to be self-analytical, watching their words, persona, actions, etc.

will tend toward posts with polished presentation, low content, high word count.

will flail with reads (massive back and forth).

emphasis added to explain why this drops tb even further into scumpit for me

[cassielle]

because i think its worth expanding on the polished presentation bit:

first impressions matter. rasks posts are high quantity, low quality, low content. at a simple glance they feel scum, theres a whole lot of posts that mostly dont say anything about the player. no matter what the content is, its going to be colore dby that first glance knee-jerk gut reaction, period.

on the opposite side of things, take gbT whose posts scream town: large, numerous, high in content, middle of the road quality (imo). at a glance you see those walls and you think "this has to be town" -- it took a very early and very unpopular interpretation of gbT's approach for me to recognize that it MIGHT not be town. everyone else is calling him obvtown. thats why first impressions matter -- you can look past the content to a certain extent because you have that vibe from looking at posts. this is also the basis of a lot of gut reads, even if the player isnt aware of it.

putting a highly polished sleek and visually well-designed (note: visually!!!) post out when youre under scrutiny is meant to deflect attention. it says "hey look im all cleaned up and my hairs nice". it wants you to go in reading it as town, because it looks nice.

unfortunately, more experienced players dont see "its sleek and nice looking", they see "its contentless and poorly thought out." thats why its not generally a scumtell outside noobscum -- it doesnt help anyones case and players who have been on the town side of it will recognize that. for experienced players its usually NAI because they just do it that way.

tb's use feels scummy, imo.

p-edit: ill devote a special post to you mbg. thanks for the big contribution, and no worries -- mafias for fun, if youre getting burnt out after a post then go take a break man haha

and hi grey! i look forward to your thoughts on who is town and who is scum when you have caught up

[cassielle]

ok, regarding mbg's big scumread list -- its largely similar to mine and creatures.

i follow the reasoning on gayreen even if i dont agree with it -- there a paranoia that stems from the inactivity, and i admit that is something i might have considered more, but to be fair, you have even fewer posts over all, what makes you more town here?

i keep saying it and its prob unnecessary but just in case: im not sharing more on my gbT reads right now. i appreciate it but for me, right now, gbT is someone who i dont care to hear anything about until they return to thread.

shade feels more scummy than gayreen or even tb imo. can i get the reasoning for him being above them? i guess another way to word this is -- what do you weight more when looking for scumreads? activity, content, tone, or gut? theres good reasons to reconsider shades placement based on some of those.

townreads mostly agreed as well. i feel like these are honest, but im curious about your personally rather low activity and shade's placement in list still -- its worth noting that shade and schadd are in standard scumbuddy territory on your list from where im sitting -- if you were scum, youd want them on weak townlean/nulltown read imo. they can benefit from any towncred you have and if you fall down and flip red its still not an immediate scumsign on them

p-edit: yeah more or less what mbg said, grey. tho im glad so glad you picked that up. i /sorta/ missed it other than feeling his reads were REALLY messed up, and creature caught it and nailed it down in the open. fortunately things have changed, but just catching that alone gives me a very light town read on you, like super nully nulltown (waiting on final catch up post to make decisions)

p-edit 2: those rask lists are crazy man

[cassielle]

everyone was sheeping gbT too, esp around just before i come in, p14 and p15

one of the reasons i was thinking gbT was scum playin town leader, but thats neither here nor there atm

[cassielle]

yeah, i hear you. my take on that: gbT is someone who im going to say is safe to assume i consider ultrascum, but atm im not going to back that up. im waiting on them to come in and respond to something, their slot is not on my current readlists because theyre in a quantum state for me atm. if thats weird or ugly, idc really, theyre really active (no worry of not getting an answer in reasonable time) and theyll either prove my prior hunch right or force me to reconsider things, theres nothing more and nothing less to it.

schadd_'s latest has me feeling i jumped the gun on him. rask is just blaring alarm bells all over tho.

p-edit: the reason that would matter -- if it were significantly longer, it would feel like just an offhand addendum, l'esprit d'escalier so to speak yeah? if it were shorter it would feel like "OH SHIT" correction/important addendum. 13 minutes feels calculated, like every last word was carefully considered. and the presentation of 240 is pretty slick in general for him: short, sweet, very dense.

its not a STRONG thing, imo, but its def there.

[cassielle]

Not seeing Gigs in this list?

actually, excluding gbT [...] ill do the same

[cassielle]

I don't put too much weight into activity because it can be easily fabricated (See Rask). I guess I would say my scumreads come mostly from the type of content I see people post, and tone. If I feel someone is putting their reads out there, and is genuine with what they say (meaning they 100% believe what they are saying) then I'm more likely to town read them. It's the main reason I have a townread on schadd.

And again I try not to post if my post isn't going to advance the game at all. I don't like fluff too much, and try to avoid it when possible, which is why my post count is so much lower than many others.

im with all of this

main thing with shade is, his posts arent just sparse, theyre also real fake and forced (creature noticed too) and low on content. a lot of pushback at being questioned but its gt a joking tone without the outrage i expect from town.

what do you focus on most when doing scumreads then? gut, tone, content?

imo tb and gayreen pinging your scumdar for inactivity isnt very consistent here, even considering timing, shades also dropped off after an initial okay-ish showing

[cassielle]

looking forward to it. also liking your list.

[cassielle]

im not feeling any reason to save you atm, tbh. id be suspicious of anyone who pushed this wagon to l-1 without a lot of good reasoning before that vote, yeah, but i think towns on the correct motorcycle atm. a lolhammer from out of the blue isn't gonna look too pretty for either of those last two votes either, id say thatd be indicative of scumblock

creature doesnt seem to disagree with me, either. i think youre showing a lot of floundering under what is, according to what you said about tb's wagon, pretty moderate pressure.

lets go over your schadd_ read, yeah? relax. gimme a moment to write up my thoughts before you start panicking all over the thread. if you want out of this the absolute best way to do it is to exonerate yourself, and the fastest way to do that is to go through, not hope to put the fast-moving wagon in reverse.

p-edit: also what grey's saying is a gooood point.

[cassielle]

here's my issues with your schadd_ read.

1: your first quote is a lot of nothing imo. schadd_ did notice you had "put pressure" on the tb wagon, yeah, but creature and i noticed it wasnt actually very good, very half-assed in fact. you just applied pressure, there was no direction and youve never been able to point out where you wanted to go with it, you just jumped on board. imo, schadd_'s early read there? wrong, incorrect, v bad. and rather than analyze his logic-read of you in any detail, you focus on the tone-read. a tone-read is weak and doesnt go places, in my experience, butyou treat it like its v towny. to me that read on you is weak badtown or NAI bad play. why do you see it differently here? why focus onthe gut read? if its because its hard to self-analyze, why not say that instead of saying that leaning on analytics for scumreads can make a person look scummy (which is sorta casting doubt on my approach when im on to you)?

230 is a fair read, i give you.

2: 489 isnt a bad conclusion, but i think your reasoning is spurious. while the nonchalance is a light towntell, its also a very common scum cover in my experience. its something you pick up easily after seeing people dismiss people as obvtown based on it, and your scum game can use that as a cover for not putting down a big masterpost (which is incidentally something youve arguably been doing since i joined). id call it NAI with scumlean for experienced players and townlean for noobs. but you didnt mention that ofc. then you have the non-reasoning "self-meta matches up" bit which is imo just about meaningless. its fluff, youre puffing up the content there without adding much, and you sort of wink at this with the "if that makes any sense" to give yourself an out. theres nothing town about that part of this explanation except not feeling a need to make it clearer -- except youre -in the hot seat- so you really should feel that need even as town???

3: finally, the scum hunting bit is something youre mostly using to bolster your own reads, which is arguably not scummy or even anti-town, but its avoiding the point of this whole process, yeah?

and now, youre feeling pressured at l-2, when you feel like l-1 is a fair amount of pressure to throw on a hapless noob in the early game? im calling you scum, buddy

p-edit: GBT! i owe you a good answer, ill give it after this, wb!

[cassielle]

gbT is townlean for me. the answer cinched it, but the seed was planted when i saw post 277, where gbT is done being town leader and just gets down to straight up saying "i want peoples input". its not asked directly to those people (that would feel like scumbuddying) but their names are mentioned (much more neutral). the answers were just sheeping and gbT didnt call it out hardcore, but it was mentioned and thats not a super-scum move esp combined with "GIVE ME INPUT" (which tends to imply "GIVE ME THE GOOD AND GIVE ME THE BAD AND GIVE ME THE INSANE")

rask is THE SEVENTH CIRCLE now. mbg is scumlean, tb and shade are my prefered scumbuddies for rask. scum busses and tb flaked quick when the pressure ratcheted, and shades been distant but rask has been mostly ignoring shade until people started staring his way.

[cassielle]

EBWOP also tb's new readlist is hella scummy

[cassielle]

@grey yeah i saw but thats why hes scumlean. i DO NOT like putting 4 people in my top scumlist, it feels wrong because half of that list is then incorrect. i prefer 3 people, and atm i feel like shade and tb owe us a loooot of explanation before we consider swapping one of them out.

@rask all true, but the thing is we have no clue about you being town. we dont know who you are at all tbh lol. and you just stink of scum all over, thats like the WIFOM thing i had with schadd_ -- a sprinkle of sugar on the top of a massive diabetes sundae, yeah? youre focusing onthe weakest part of my argument there, true, but youre missing that its also the most trivial. also the shade thing -- you expressed a bit of doubt then ignored it and focused hard on tb and rakkar lol, then when i come in and start pointing at you you swap to shade p much immediately. thats what i read buddy

@matt quickhammer would be a scum indicator from where im standing and id make it a policy lynch to wreck them on d2 for it.

[cassielle]

btw from where im standing, i really dont want anyone putting rask at l-1 anyway just yet for diff reasons. i think its funny how he considered l-2 a lot of pressure but thought nothing of putting tb on l-1, it was something creature, i and prob others have found extremely lazy and half assed directionless pressure. we have a direction were taking this wagon, and we have less weight on it, why the squirming? theres a lot of trying to say "well obviously id be nervous its me not them" but i mean he seems incapable of seeing it from onthe outside where he took tb's breaking under pressure as a scumtell???

[cassielle]

theres a lot of arguments youll have to find spurious reasoning in now. for now lets talk about the pressure, because i mean, no one but mbg seems particularly upset about this turn of events and mbg was only worried about l-1 because quickhammer. l-2 is perfectly comfortable on this side, and you dont understand us looking at your squirming as scummy.

why? i mean, tb broke under more, earlier, with worse and fewer arguments against him. what makes you so different that we need to read you differently than you did him?

[cassielle]

no, i think youre dodging the point. not liking pressure to you is scummy. you treated tb's reaction as def scum. said there was no pro-town reason for it and implied it was unlikely he had any good argument in favor of it.

so why, when we apply that reasoning to you, is it somehow different?

[cassielle]

ok, thats fair. so guys, whats your reasons? im interested in hearing this -- sheeped reasoning stands out after all, so hell why not shake the box a bit

[cassielle]

wrt post 603: imo mbg is sheepy in general but im not caring too much, if rask flips red we got two whole days of leisurely scumhunting, and i would stake my life on rask being red atm. to rephrase: mbg having sheeped reasoning here isnt a break in character (hell its damn near his playstyle atm) and im feeling the rask wagon.

[cassielle]

im feeling the same way about the defense dismissal. i also agree with mbg that 8 days is good time to keep up the scumhunting. rask is just like, digging this giant hole atm, not accepting pro-town advice early and its hurting him now on top of everything else. i think that wagon isnt at risk of losing momentum when the time comes and we can focus on finding scumbuddies. ill let you guys direct that tho because i dont mind giving rask more airtime to bury himself atm

[cassielle]

1: claim could have been thinking he was at l-1 and not being around. ive read my share of noob games here and that is nooot uncommon -- someones not home, theyre at l-1 without intent, they claim and beg people not to hammer before they get home.

2: you never said a word about the underreaction, you let him lurk and moved to rakkar as your prime suspect lol

3: im saying that i dont think youre capable of convincing me you arent scum. if you want to try, you got all the rest of d1 to do so. i recommend working on an ironclad defense and making a masterpost on it instead of the fluffspam

[cassielle]

show of hands who yall seeing as your top two scumfavs for rask? i got shade and tb as my favs atm, shade+tb doesnt feel right but rask+shade feels nice and rask+tb, while weaker, doesnt feel bad to me

[cassielle]

wow, talking about claiming at l-2 scummy and does the same thing. i would ask for a cc but thats dumb af d1.

you are suspicious af on every level man, idk even here, im gonna wait for some outside input for now

the rage feels town but theres this real "GTFO MY BACK" feeling that idk, you STILL come across scum to me

idk the best way to go here. so. waiting on folks

[cassielle]

more confident on my gbT townread now. i need to give a new reads list but first i need to get some advice on wtf you do in a situation where a claimed pr is hypocritical, inconsistent and ultrascum so i know how to lay out that bottom slot

i am not budging on my rask feels, he is lynchbait from massive scum feels or nkbait from claiming and a liability at -best-, at worst hes scum whos poss gonna coast to d2 on the back of a ml imo. hence needing advice.

also yeah tb+shade feels infinitely wrong. this is another reason to stay on that rask wagon imo

mbg would be my second pick but he doesnt feel good with shade and does feel real good with rask. so itd be tb + mbg, i do not foresee a shade + mbg pairing

[cassielle]

and my scumfeels on tb are weaker than they are on shade to a small extent ftr, so i really dont vibe with a tb+mbg team even tho its the best non-rask option

[cassielle]

yeah i hear you on tb except for that final read list. i give my thoughts on it in 525 and 533, and i think that along with everything else that doesnt quiiite add up about him equals at least light scumlean, but i like him for scumteam imo

[cassielle]

wrt my scumread on mbg: scrutinize his readlists fromstart to finish and check vote patterns too. sheepy from start to finish, rapidchange in reads between first 2 lists, but backs off a wagon with a strong general scumread (that he agrees on) on it at l-1. could be noob cold feet, but still leans scum imo

[cassielle]

i didnt catch that part. doublechecking

[cassielle]

549

in iso hes getting more and more frustrated responding to you lol. id already leaned on him p hard earlier so prob understandable? idk

[cassielle]

damn were back where we started if we give mbg a townread, and kumbaya land is awful for scumhunting. who have we not re-evaled?

creature is conftown.

i forced a re-read on me when i joined, exonerated rakkar p much from what i can tell.

schadd_ is town-ish to me and i already tried going after him like scum.

-grey-? waaaay too towny. aggressive af and not in the least bit afraid to go out on a limb to find them scums

gbT i tried framing as scum and well that didnt really work out lol

damnit

im stuck on rask. someone give to me guidance here, i have never been so sure of scum and yet had someone claim like that

[cassielle]

i want to wait on tb hitting l-1. i feel scum is very possibly all off that wagon and i want to prevent a quickhammer because hes a weak link and outside of no-discussion policy lynch id prob let the hammerer off the hook.

im parking on rask. rask feels right. its not going to get traction and it prob shouldnt but goddamn i feel it

as mbg said, 8 days of discussion left, lets make use of it! and i really, really want to hear him talk about that shallow af polished af read list

[cassielle]

theres also the fact that he clammed up when he saw a (fake) l-1 before. i want him to talk, not curl up and die

[cassielle]

ofc it is. but with him talking we have more material in his iso to crossref with other players and find the scum partner. if he hits l-1 and then stfus we could well have 8 days of discussio nthat amounts to chasing our tails and i still wont be 100% convinced hell flip red (maybe 80%, which is still good enough reason to lynch from where im standing fyi). id just feel better making him talk

[cassielle]

im actualyl gonna just ISO dig on shade and tb again? i think im weighting that readslist a bit high (idc about being in scum but everything else is all upside down too rofl) and i cant think of a town!shade post off the top of my head while i def agree with most of creatures town!tb examples (again, i read him town for strong early game play then he slips a bit to NAI or light anti-town and shortly thereafter falls off a cliff activity wise, promises content and fails to deliver, and i go wut)

[cassielle]

TB MASTERPOST:

ok so my town read on him ends around post 15. period of about a half hour! he doesnt post again for 13 hours, post #77. #77 is my last townread on him, and its much, much weaker -- feels buzzwordy even if it is true.

then doesnt post for 3 hrs and claims at #143. the claim feels NAI to me, it could fall in either direction quite strongly but i dont feel confident reading it in either way yet.

active for about 10 minutes after the claim, ending at post #159. there is a real fear of lynching early evident in #152. is that AI? if it is i think it leans scum since town should know town wont hammer early?

at this point shade comes in (~15min later). ill skip him for now tho

tb returns about 21 (!!!) hrs later to say "will definitely post tonight". #224 explains why hes been missing. then 22 hrs (!!!!!!) later #232 promises content

around 36hrs (!!!!!!!!!) later, prod received, will post tonight. at this point (#399), post total is at 13.

active around 11 hrs later, begins rereading and unvotes creature (his early rvs vote) after 5 days have passed from that initial vote.

around 5 hrs later (fair, huge amount to catch up on) the readlist gets posted in #517, with no explanation but a promise to explain in the future.

active for about a half hour, last post of that burst of activity at #531, every post since readlist is fluff

finally #589, 2h later, correcting me about saying he flaked (fair) and restating #159.

thoughts? working on shade now

[cassielle]

SHADE MASTERPOST:

shade comes in at #211. standard high polish intro post, notes delay before engagement in the game. NAI, this is the first post of an excited noob imo

shade is answering posts in order 7hrs later (#213), doesnt see gbT say dont answer RQS. breakdown of this post: curiosity, curiosity, curiosity, confusion, townlean, correction statement, thinking about gbT's thought processes (townlean???), NAI imo, GOOD TOWN VIBES, SAME, paranoia (town? NAI?), curiosity, unsure how to parse (town? NAI?). HUGE post -- but catchup, so fair.

2 hrs later #225 continues the trend of massive wallposts. breakdown as follows: acknowledgement, curiosity + slight townlean, NAI imo, fair observation about game speed. smaller post but also all just followups on people responding to first wall. corrects self in another post and apologizes for mistake.

rapidly dwindling wallpost size evident in #252 about 46 (!!!!!!) hrs later. breakdown: socializing, townlean, curiosity/NAI, light (almost non-) reads (prelim readlist seems to go rask-> townlean, tb-> scumlean). how can you have only such weak reads by now?

2 min later, naked vote on TB "to see what will happen" in post #253. tb is not active at this point. creature said, "scum votes this way". inclined to agree.

#255, called out by creature for the naked vote. defensiveness but tone read gets humor, not indignance. not feeling town vibes here. justification is thin, parroted/sheepy

#272 defense of naked vote around an hour later. breakdown: fair point, WEIRD, fair, WEIRD, fair, noobtell NAI imo. i want outside input on the two WEIRD parts.

49 hrs (!!!!!!) later, last post #494. breakdown: explanation of absence, talking to mod, interesting reasoning that needs analysis, unvote tb (50hrs after vote), promise to answer things when they catch up.

thoughts? also, food for thought:

@gigabyteTroubadour I was suspecting gayreen as scum. That was the main reason I asked questions about your reads cause your read about gayreen felt really weird to me. I don't suspect him as scum with TB necessarily, not sure why you were expecting me to scum read them as a team. The way he kept his vote around as a threat and got confused after TB claim is actually scummy to me but first thing that came to my mind was the way he was asking for permissions to vote [like asking help from a more talented player] and I voted ThinkGig mainly to see what will you and GAYreenHamster do about it (and to actually remind ThinkBig to answer my question) which was disrupted with this wagon on me.

needs analysis. im not convinced on this reasoning -- gayreen was looking for someone to say "yeah go for it" but didnt actually do it, that reads town af to me? idk... maybe grey is the slot we should re-examine?

Second I didn't vote Thinkbig for his claim. I'm voting him because I want him to answer "why he claimed".

Fourth What about my vote was scummy?

needs analysis, my take on why these stand out: weird to criticize rasks vote then do the same thing. and weird that he didnt recognize the diff between his naked vote and others, but idk how to parse that.

[cassielle]

rereading the masterposts now, i can put together stuff easier. shade does weirder stuff but im reading them mostly both for the HUGE gaps in activity, just these giant gaping holes? tb also has timing and repeated failure to live up to promises of content, so id say that while shade's read for me is slightly scummier, im more confident about my tb scumread and more willing to back that up. shade i feel could be misinterp, idk if id jump on a shade wagon atm without some intense questioning of the people pushing it

[cassielle]

i woke up just now after sleeping on -Grey- and GAYreen's respective ISO's. creature is one step ahead of me.

im gonna do a detailed post about why, but first food and so forth

and im thinking my fav scumteam is shade+grey. again, details forthcoming asap

VOTE: -Grey-

[cassielle]

yeah you didnt. this hinges on a number of things being NAI and me assuming poorly about a couple others. but this read feels better. eating now, then explanation. seriously, i think grey is def scum here. but if you want to try and follow my train of thought, reread gayreen's ISO -- first as town, then as scum. really really close, yeah? i mean, its only obvtown one way because of a lot of assumptions, and i kept saying -- noob obvtown. noob obvtown. but GAYreen isnt a noob. they have played a game in the past at least.

in depth explanation coming. if you have your doubts, give me ~15-20 min.

[cassielle]

@Shade:

can you look over my post #648 (toward the bottom of page 26) and just help me follow your reasoning when it goes scumwards or weird from my perspective?

@everyone:

posting my big grey/gayreen thing now!

[cassielle]

GAYREEN MASTERPOST:

gayreen joins late at post #85. NAI intro though it starts an early pattern of high fluff low content

gayreen is NOT on the TB wagon from the outset, see #87. also #91 is highly defensive of TB. pay attention to this spot.

post #98 casts shade at schadd_ without actually making a specific accusation, and establishes early on: player sees voting as immediate intent to lynch -- i.e., they will not vote without a very good reason!

#101 is a response to iirc gbT pointing out that if youre going to make accusations in general, you should be prepared to vote. the response is to vote schadd_??? this is a very sheepish course of action without actually looking like sheeping, because its diametrically opposed to prior feelings about voting! its also practically a naked vote -- the reasoning is almost but not quite OMGUS (since he wasnt schadd_'s target). this is why i was thinking noobtown, despite stated experience offsite!

#103: when questioned, cant come up with a very good explanation, admits it probably doesnt mean much in forum. #106 says that hes just going to leave the vote where it is despite implying acceptance of most counterarguments.

#107 implies scum mindset: asking about townreads and why no ones talking about them. remember, scum know everything.

#122 is fluffy, and theres a low content value on a post-by-post basis at this point. the posts are avging ~8-ish? words per post and include the 3 word "wow, thanks rask" and 4 word "ok, im back again".

#137 is a sudden jump in content at a critical point and a CRITICAL break in character for GAYreen. GAYreen asks about putting the l-1 vote on TB here. note the following: 87 and 91 imply that he DOES NOT BUY potential arguments vs. TB. there is no change by this point, nothing has come up implying he changed his mind. and #101 states a wariness/dislike of naked votes, when schadd_'s vote arguably was higher content than GAYreen's uhh... intent to l-1? (its not even l-1 vote or intent to hammer, its like the hammer vote and l-1 got mixed up and he was stating intent to l-1) this post (#137) is WILDLY out of character with previous actions, in a way that is, ok, NAI -- but if you parse it town, says badtown, and if you parse it scum feels p damn scummy.

#140 reinforces this massive break in character. WHAT THE HELL is going on here, if youre reading this through from town perspective?

#145 backs off a bit but says "it's a pressure thing" -- no rask was def right and i should have paid more attention to this and im a moron tbh. THIS HERE is where i put my foot down on GAYreen's slot. the fact that -Grey- was able to force a repeat (!!!) of this behavior in terms of forcing a claim out of someone without actually putting all the pressure on them (in fact letting me drive the wagon, i did not want a claim and i was at a total loss when a claim popped up) makes me suspect them, but ill get to that in the second part of my post.

#160: tb claims, GAYreen immediately drops all that supposed pressure (y'know, on a slot he previously stated having absolutely no suspicion of!) and drops to fluffposts. unvotes schadd_ @ #169 saying the reason for voting him has been disproved (it hasnt lol).

#197 continues casting shade at schadd_. it IS a light towntell for noobs but leans NAI for experienced players. REMINDER: GAYREEN IS NOT A NOOB. the shade-casting continues in #199 and #202, #202 is buzzwordy, and the remaining 6 posts are nearly contentless except for #361 trying to cast doubt on creature's conftown status.

guys, i want to move that pressure onto -Grey-, seriously. yes the mistakes stated so far are someone elses, and arguably shouldnt be held against the slot, but creature stated awhile back iirc: if a slot seems scummy at first and later looks more town, its PROBABLY still scum. im vibing with that statement now. im gonna make a -Grey- masterpost next to back this up tho. consider moving votes around, please.

p-edit: no youre cool shade. ill get back to you as soon as i wrap up my -grey- masterpost. for now: wallposts are good! but its better the more /you/ type. quotes are great but id rather have your text to read than a copy of text i can just scroll up to read, yeah?

[cassielle]

i know. thats what i was saying -- id rather have more of your own text than quotes of any sort. i can always scroll up to read quotes, i cant always drag more text out of you :p

[cassielle]

-GREY- MASTERPOST:

#530 intro post. high in character but contentless. NAI.

#534: FIRST post worth commenting on??? commenting on MBG's list at 239, not saying a word about those weird ass claims and such prior? arguably this is NAI leaning town but im suspicious af about there being nothing to comment on from 135 to 160-ish just for example. #535 still leaning on MBG but it is valid and in order here.

#538: contentless expression of confusion at one of rask's lists. #539 is vaguely towny. leans on mbg for more info. can someone tell me what they think about the info hes pressing for here? is there even a point to asking that in that post? im uncertain, i tend to lean toward yoinking maximum info out of EVERYONE for exactly the reason of what i am doing rn. either way #541 drops it.

#544 is contentless expression of dislike toward SOMETHING to do with creature. what? who knows!

#547 is vaguely scummy imo -- expresses disgust with mbg pulling vote off player to be replaced who had prior contributed literally almost nothing. its giving the newcomer a fair chance to make their name lol, that is the correct motorcycle when lurkers replace out (obv diff players are a diff story)

#548 is defensive of GAYreen. the whole awareness of sheeping thing is consistent throughout matts ISO, even if he engages in it. its, as i said before, practically his playstyle to follow the town leader while loudly expressing said player could lead everyone right off a cliff. why is -Grey- defensive when they read #369?

#551 is fair, multiple others have stated the same at about the same point.

#552 seems to be a scumslip? town can easily see the paranoia that would lead to #431, no one else questioned it, even mbg seemed to take it in stride, treat it as fair.

#554 seems to also imply scumminess -- scum skim, town deep-reads. on a skim my list there is bad. the shallowest of deep-reads reveals i imply that is to be expected. context in thread also does.

#558 is an interesting readslist that i wanted to ask some questions on but got caught up in getting the noose on rask. by now my main concern (mbg's placement) is no longer a thing, but thats more my fault for getting a bit tunnelled looking for an out from the apparent kumbayaland gameplay than it is anything else.

#568 reads as completely unaware of the thread. rakkar DID NOT POST. even just clicking the activity overview will tell you exactly what changed there lol. this is a clear scumslip from where im standing.

#570 i can practically hear "target locked." thats a bit of hindsight but jfc

#571 dismisses a valid line of reasoning. in fact, a line of reasoning used by mbg and accepted by grey at that point as well! see #541

#578 is CONVINCING REASONING. the speed at which it came out of fuckin nowhere was not. i recall feeling this way when i first saw it, but i was (and to a slightly reduced degree, am!) so convinced of rask flipping red that i just sat on it (see my feelings on mbg as poss. scumteam member in #604)

#582 casts shade but doesnt claim towntell or scumtell, just "tell". mbg's noob, implies NOOBtell to me. #582 feels light anti-town to me -- either greys ignored everything up to this point while reading through or hes scumteam, otherwise hed realize hes probably seeing mbg's repeatedly stated inexperience with mafia lol

#586 is further contentless shade casting on mbg. while i agree its indicative of something, i did not and do not agree its enough to even FoS mbg rn, we need to focus on our bigger scumbags. its also an ULTRA-easy read, which is why i was dismissing peoples concerns with gayreen changing mind on the tb l-1 -- thats a copout read, it stands out, grabs attention and means nothing. scum can use it to pretend they have real opinions

#592 is stating the obvious in a dickish manner. arguably nai but im leaning scum with it combined with the rest.

#605 is fair. i agreed then, i agree now.

#609 feels like its pushing for an immediate lynch. its trying to corner rask into a "well thats scum claim" position. i even gave rask an out from that in 610 because W T F. i dont mind that sort of play but we have A FULL WEEK OF DAYTIME, you corner someone that way on the last day of day phase rofl you dont do that shit midway through, wtf??? scum af here

#629 dismisses at least three separate concerns with mbg as "nah its all cool" including 582-592! wtf? NAI but mbg and -grey- are going to be opposite factions p sure

#637 why did it take this long for this? why? rask claimed a full HOUR prior. W T F. and why the hell put pressure on tb again? what is the point here? what more is going to come of this? i make this point several times around here, saying "no more than l-2" and gbT and -Grey- are BOTH dismissive of my point here, but gbT is trying to allay concerns while -Grey- (#644) is sayingthat everything points to TB=scum anyway so who gives a fuck. S C U M

someone convince me im reading GAYreen+-Grey- wrong pls? Creature? anyone? im p sure you guys cant.

[cassielle]

im cool with this but im reading -grey- as scumbuddy. everyone was on rask, rask was weakest link, grey leans harder and rask claims at l-2 (rofl remember all them arguments and confusion about tb claiming at l-2 hooboy) then backs tf off and goes right back after the EASIEST GODDAMN LYNCH IN GAME

i want your opinion on -grey- atm

[cassielle]

MOD why are rask and shade at l-4 with no votes :p

[cassielle]

CURRENT READLIST:

TOWN
creature <--- do never lynch this slot.
gbT, schadd_ <--- i wouldnt bet my life that they wouldnt flip red, but im below 50% on that. about 70-75% confident of town.
mbg, shade <--- i am about at 50% with these slots. flip a coin for alignment imo
tb <--- scum stink. 70-75% confidence.
rask, -grey- <--- 90-95% confidence of scum. consider lynch
RESERVED <--- do always lynch these slots
SCUM

[cassielle]

crap forgot my reread of mbg. damnit

TOWN
creature <--- do never lynch this slot.
gbT, schadd_, mbg <--- i wouldnt bet my life that they wouldnt flip red, but im below 50% on that. about 70-75% confident of town.
shade <--- i am about at 50% with this slot. flip a coin for alignment imo
tb <--- scum stink. 70-75% confidence.
rask, -grey- <--- 90-95% confidence of scum. consider lynch
RESERVED <--- do always lynch these slots
SCUM

[cassielle]

no, it doesnt. its screaming at me DESPITE the claim. i want to shift my opinion of him but i am not feeling it, im quite confident in a rask=scum world and i felt this way even before mbg mentioned meta (i was unaware of that meta)

[cassielle]

that said i do NOT feel like lynching rask today necessarily unless we get that counterclaim. risk is risk and unnecessary risk is unnecessary risk, period. i feel rask is NK-bait and a liability at best and coasting scum at worst though.

[cassielle]

im really waiting for someone to go over my masterposts and say something about them more than anything else. was hoping thatd be you gbT

im trying to combine infodumps (ISO summary) with analysis (my take on what that ISO summary means). that way you can have my masterpost in one tab and the players ISO in the other, tab back and forth and get a good "feel" for where im coming from EVEN IF YOU DISAGREE. and IF you disagree you can pinpoint where i went wrong and offer your take. even if we never see eye to eye it is a great reference tool for where im coming from imo and helps you figure a way to parse other peoples reads if you dont understand them

at the same time im uncertain of my analysis because it feels sparse in parts, so i want other people to call me out so i can get the motivation to defend it OR see a diff interpretation that i can agree with

i owe shade a response but i dont want to take focus off of -grey- atm so im choosingto sit on my hands until someone says something about my take there

[cassielle]

i had to think about this a bit.

on one hand -- i think giving you a chance to defend yourself is a bad idea rn. i think youre a good enough player that if i give youthe opportunity,you could wiggle out of any accusation no matter how strong and regardless of alignment.

on the other hand, thats not pro-town. thats anti-town. its only common sense to give you this opportunity, REGARDLESS of how strong your play is, because town will be able to get out of those accusations effortlessly and scum will flail a bit under the pressure.

gimme a bit to repost. i dont think its the right way to do this, but id feel like badtown if i didnt.

[cassielle]

-GREY- MASTERPOST:

530: intro post. high in character but contentless. NAI.

534: FIRST post worth commenting on??? commenting on MBG's list at 239, not saying a word about those weird ass claims and such prior? arguably this is NAI leaning town but im suspicious af about there being nothing to comment on from 135 to 160-ish just for example. #535 still leaning on MBG but it is valid and in order here.

538: contentless expression of confusion at one of rask's lists. #539 is vaguely towny. leans on mbg for more info. can someone tell me what they think about the info hes pressing for here? is there even a point to asking that in that post? im uncertain, i tend to lean toward yoinking maximum info out of EVERYONE for exactly the reason of what i am doing rn. either way #541 drops it.

#544 is contentless expression of dislike toward SOMETHING to do with creature. what? who knows!

#547 is vaguely scummy imo -- expresses disgust with mbg pulling vote off player to be replaced who had prior contributed literally almost nothing. its giving the newcomer a fair chance to make their name lol, that is the correct motorcycle when lurkers replace out (obv diff players are a diff story)

#548 is defensive of GAYreen. the whole awareness of sheeping thing is consistent throughout matts ISO, even if he engages in it. its, as i said before, practically his playstyle to follow the town leader while loudly expressing said player could lead everyone right off a cliff. why is -Grey- defensive when they read #369?

#551 is fair, multiple others have stated the same at about the same point.

#552 seems to be a scumslip? town can easily see the paranoia that would lead to #431, no one else questioned it, even mbg seemed to take it in stride, treat it as fair.

#554 seems to also imply scumminess -- scum skim, town deep-reads. on a skim my list there is bad. the shallowest of deep-reads reveals i imply that is to be expected. context in thread also does.

#558 is an interesting readslist that i wanted to ask some questions on but got caught up in getting the noose on rask. by now my main concern (mbg's placement) is no longer a thing, but thats more my fault for getting a bit tunnelled looking for an out from the apparent kumbayaland gameplay than it is anything else.

#568 reads as completely unaware of the thread. rakkar DID NOT POST. even just clicking the activity overview will tell you exactly what changed there lol. this is a clear scumslip from where im standing.

#570 i can practically hear "target locked." thats a bit of hindsight but jfc

#571 dismisses a valid line of reasoning. in fact, a line of reasoning used by mbg and accepted by grey at that point as well! see #541

#578 is CONVINCING REASONING. the speed at which it came out of fuckin nowhere was not. i recall feeling this way when i first saw it, but i was (and to a slightly reduced degree, am!) so convinced of rask flipping red that i just sat on it (see my feelings on mbg as poss. scumteam member in #604)

#582 casts shade but doesnt claim towntell or scumtell, just "tell". mbg's noob, implies NOOBtell to me. #582 feels light anti-town to me -- either greys ignored everything up to this point while reading through or hes scumteam, otherwise hed realize hes probably seeing mbg's repeatedly stated inexperience with mafia lol

#586 is further contentless shade casting on mbg. while i agree its indicative of something, i did not and do not agree its enough to even FoS mbg rn, we need to focus on our bigger scumbags. its also an ULTRA-easy read, which is why i was dismissing peoples concerns with gayreen changing mind on the tb l-1 -- thats a copout read, it stands out, grabs attention and means nothing. scum can use it to pretend they have real opinions

#592 is stating the obvious in a dickish manner. arguably nai but im leaning scum with it combined with the rest.

#605 is fair. i agreed then, i agree now.

#609 feels like its pushing for an immediate lynch. its trying to corner rask into a "well thats scum claim" position. i even gave rask an out from that in 610 because W T F. i dont mind that sort of play but we have A FULL WEEK OF DAYTIME, you corner someone that way on the last day of day phase rofl you dont do that shit midway through, wtf??? scum af here

#629 dismisses at least three separate concerns with mbg as "nah its all cool" including 582-592! wtf? NAI but mbg and -grey- are going to be opposite factions p sure

#637 why did it take this long for this? why? rask claimed a full HOUR prior. W T F. and why the hell put pressure on tb again? what is the point here? what more is going to come of this? i make this point several times around here, saying "no more than l-2" and gbT and -Grey- are BOTH dismissive of my point here, but gbT is trying to allay concerns while -Grey- (#644) is sayingthat everything points to TB=scum anyway so who gives a fuck. S C U M

someone convince me im reading GAYreen+-Grey- wrong pls? Creature? anyone? im p sure you guys cant.

done

[cassielle]

also re: 578 it ignores the possibility of scumhunting which is a valid reason to vote someone who isnt your top scumread (see e.g. my current vote)

[cassielle]

actually on further consideration #578 is fake as hell because dude THERE IS A FULL WEEK LEFT do you really want people to just hammer a lynch home at the middle of the day phase no matter how convinced they are that youre the central scum? WHY NOT yknow use the rest of the day to rule out your other scumreads, have a solid townblock and gamesolve so you can end with a town win d2? S C U M

[cassielle]

ftr im waiting on people. schadd_ and creature are online that i can see and id really like to hear from them asap because rn im just sitting on my hands so the focus is where i think it should be (i.e. grey)

[cassielle]

first bit: like i said, NAI leaning town for the reasons you stated.

second bit: i talked about that, but you didnt expand on it at all and so i mean contentless? yeah. also thats a serious overreaction to something im not making much of a judgement call on. i really want to see how you react as we near the really questionable stuff

and yeah take your time. apologies for the wall i just expected it to be used from a pc -- my masterpost in one tab, player ISO in the other, make it easy to get a general overview of what im seeing p much exactly how i saw it ha

[cassielle]

ofc and thats why myself and gbT are happy and why i started to panic after rask's claim -- scumhunting was def looking difficult there again for a second because i was seeing the townblock solidifying again against the lurkiest players. thats not good play.

that doesnt mean that you immediately dismiss mbg's "things have changed" and ask for a new answer esp when you arent caught up yet -- because i mean 526. youd be able to see hed started justifying his reads anyhow. and when everyone scum or town is parroting gbT at the point you were criticizing mbg for, its hard to say that he in particular deserves that focus there.

i will say the presentation feels a bit questionable, sure, creature noticed it and i did too, but from start to finish his playstyle has been exactly that.

have you checked anyones ISO yet? honest question, based on a feelingthat half of this would jump out and scream at you in ISOs and youre missing the trees for the forest so to speak here. thats one town-reason to have this approach atm.

p-edit: im not. youre just casting shade there and i dont have any clue what you were talking about because you didnt link a damn thing and i havent seen anything questionable from his direction to begin with (or id doublecheck that conftown status the hard way -- its not like i have pure trust in possible scum here come on)

[cassielle]

resetting a read on someone who CONTRIBUTED NOTHING is fair, because if your read is based on activity alone (and it had to be, i mean rakkar gave absolutely nothing to work with) then replacement changes literally everything about the read by default! you have to start from null there because from the get go your entire original reason has to fail to be the case for the new player lol

its like, lets say you have a reason to believe some alt was made SPECIFICALLY to be a scum slot in some game based on the avatar or username or something, and then they replace out. if that is literally your only reason for believing that, it absolutely fails to hold when replacement time comes and you /need/ to start fresh or youre making spurious scumreads

[cassielle]

ok, thats fair.

[cassielle]

town gets paranoid, scum doesnt. town doesnt know anything, not even how much they dont know. scum knows everything, including exactly how much they dont know. 431 is indicative of a town mindset and, silly as it is, will end up shot down p quickly by town anyway.

that said, a reread says ok, sure, fair. im still going to say the concern was valid, EVEN IF silly, ridiculous, pointless.

[cassielle]

i dont really buy meta arguments USUALLY (outside of very hard, near infallible town/scumread meta like creature), so im going to say no, that doesnt matter here, it still feels like a scum mindset to me. at best its NAI which the stuff after it will make irrelevant -- it was one tiny piece of stone in a p big wall, so im comfortable leaving it just sit out there without trying to offer a counter to your counter argument, just like the l-1 thing for rask and the WIFOM-awareness for schadd_

p-edit: and idk how you could have possibly missed that rakkar was all but 100% completely and totally inactive but w/e, im gonna just leave that sitting next to the above because i dont buy missing it but dont have a good counterargument

[cassielle]

nope. i back this up in my commentary on 578 including 700 and 701

[cassielle]

im glad we had this little q&a tho because im p sure no one is gonna let you out of this now lol

[cassielle]

the problem with 576 (and thanks for that, thats the strongest townread ive had on you since examining and its still p weak) is that its an easy dismissal. its like "oh i was just joking" or "i wasnt trying to push for a claim" and so forth. the post-event backing-up is NAI because both town and scum would want to do it. and while it might change the original event to NAI too, if that single post is the ENTIRE BASIS of your read it was damned weak anyway

keeping that in mind, i re-read 571 on that basis and still didnt see it. it projects sarcasm in the extreme, and thats strongly your style, every post filled with snark. why would i give that post the benefit of the doubt and call it genuine when most of your tone is cynical sarcastic snark? thats one post out of ~40. im not going to extend that benefit of the doubt in that ONE case, esp when you vote that same person almost immediately after saying you agreed with their post

p-edit: see above. you go from 576 to 578 at the drop of a hat, that doesnt add up to me. also i examined the reasoning in 700 and 701 and it fell apart. surface-level convincing. i admit i probably should have sat on that one a bit longer before i posted the masterpost.

[cassielle]

EBWOP: strongest townread referring to 721 (and its weak, yeah)

[cassielle]

the problem with the caution tell and the whole "why would you change your mind on a slot once it replaces" thing is that both of those arguments can be turned right back on you with GAYreenHamster showing caution tell and you replacing. half of this read is on the basis of GAYreens actions as well -- the difference, to me, is that GAYreen was genuinely p active, youve only just started exceeding his post count for example, while rakkar had 2 one-line (!!!!!) posts that were both strongly NAI by the time he replaced out, thats not something you can read from.

and unfortunately you have to accept that i have a point in questioning one or both of those arguments or accept they apply just as much to you. thats just logic.

p-edit: im finding this very OMGUS in general, this is how an active, aggressive scum slot would act imo -- they get the focus on them and they start throwing things right back.

ill remind you what i told rask and schadd_: i want you to convince me. treating me as def scum for putting your ISO under the microscope is not convincing, its buckling under pressure.

[cassielle]

im going to settle my case with #729. specifically because of:

Wrong. Once you find scum, you lynch scum. Deadline is irrelevant. Putting off the Lynch simply because of the deadline only serves to give scum extra time to wiggle out of the noose.

this is an anti-town attitude. town wants more time for more info. scum wants to push a quick lynch. im not budging on this unless i hear a REALLY, really good counterargument from one of my townreads.

[cassielle]

re: 731, its weird but had explanations from both sides and also that are just completely null. so NAI, by default. opposite factions means if one flips red the other flips green from where im sitting.

only focusing on the least important part of the argument in 732which seems to be a common theme no matter whos trying to tear my arguments down. either i structure arguments well or theres an art to deconstructing an argument that involves picking at the most unimportant elements thereof?

im not really talking to -grey- anymore this is for people who come in afterward

p-edit and re: 733 it reinforces my anti-town read of -grey-'s actions

[cassielle]

would like to note -grey- never bothered responding to 701, 707, 709 thus far. skipped over them. looks like cherrypicking the weakest parts of the weakest posts from where im standing.

(re:734 so people dont think im hypocritical on cherrypicking -- that post ignores my approach to gbT/schadd_/rask/mbg and i dont think theres any point in trying to convince -Grey- that my read on him is genuine and has honest motivations atm: hes convinced of what hes convinced and no argument shall sway)

[cassielle]

i dont read meta as a general rule. i never checked rasks meta. gbT and i think someone else here i did use meta --- but only as my weakest argument for them because meta to me is something you can analyze and use to work in favor of being townread even on scumteam. creature's meta is so hard-core yes-or-no (no interpretation to it) that it would be silly, even illogical to ignore it.

and regarding your meta in particular:

1: the first time you brought it up was on a very weak argument of mine. i dont care if the meta crushes it, theres OTHER parts.

2: the second time you brought it up -- if its true, i would be willing to say that your meta and mine work so poorly with each other than one of us would naturally be a d1 lynch in any game we were in. to me, shutting down info is ALWAYS anti-town. shortening the day dramatically is ALWAYS anti-town. i would read that meta and say "so its a player that personally id want to policy lynch because nothing about where theyre coming from feels pro-town to me at all no matter what side theyre on"

3: you never even linked to a representative game like gbT did on a couple occasions in this very game, which makes me think youd be hoping id dig into a couple games shallowly, get exhausted from info overload and accept it at face value. notthat that would help this, see 1 and 2.

4: finally, those posts i want you to read arent meta. they are directly relevant to this discussion, in this game, in this very conversation in fact. that is a pretty considerable difference.

p-edit: ill address your post separately schadd_! just for sanity after the post explosion haha

[cassielle]

ok so NAI means Not Alignment Indicative from what ive gathered. it means it can be read null, town, or scum and all of them abooout equally. its a way of saying "this post doesnt matter in the long run" or (where i include it in master posts) "this post MIGHT not matter in the long run but im putting it there for consistency" (i skipped no posts that werent fluff in any of these masterposts)

i can agree on your interpretation of skimming, but very generally speaking scum skims because they know everything. they dont need to read deeply, because they know who is town and who is scum. scum readlists will usually be incoherent, long on tone, or gut reads when examined, and their source is usually pulled from someones ass, pulled from a townie's post,or pulled from a townie's post and rearranged around the nullreads

i dont mind you sitting on tb till he brings forth his arguments, but do consider -gray-'s intention to end the day quickly and what precisely that means for town if you would

[cassielle]

re:742 id argue the opposite is true -- -Gray-'s scumhunting thus far has said "mbg is -- nah hes ok", "rask is scum" (well when half the town agrees you dont necessarily stand back and ignore where theyre coming from, town OR scum), and "cass is scum" (because i put him under the microscope -- i did the same thing to gbT and schadd_ and rask and to a lesser degree mbg, i made masterposts for tb and shade, etc).

hes not seeming superduper strong on the tb wagon that he was sitting on, judging by his ISO, and has never gone into detail on it (implying light sheeping) and has shade at the same place with just as little explanation (again).

ive approached almost every slot at least once with a large coherent argument. thus far the majority have handled it beautifully, schadd_ began slightly defensive but cleared himself after he realized i wasnt just trying to smash him flat -- i genuinely wanted to be convinced. gbT took my HEAVY scum read (i came in on them stronger with a weaker case ftr @-Grey-) fairly lightly and calmly explained my concerns. mbg saw the best way out was through and followed the examples of those prior to him.

rask on the other hand got ultra defensive, sidestepped questions at least once, and then got desperate and flaily when the pressure built. and -grey- has gone completely OMGUS from a stronger case presented in calmer wording than i approached gbT with.

im going to let that sit in the open. you guys tell me how you want to read those conclusions.

[cassielle]

TB should be coming back soon here (next hour or two). i dont want an updated reads list until he explains his first one. that first one looks ultrashallow, and i cannot understand the reasoning behind some of his reads (e.g. schadd_). i want that original explanation before anything else. catching up on the thread even is, imo, optional prior to that explanation.

we need to know WHY TB stood where he did yesterday before we can make an opinion on where he stands today

[cassielle]

note: this is judging by his usual schedule and his promise of updating us tonight

[cassielle]

but you arent trying to give me your perspective. the way to do that is

actually, yknow, im jsut gonna

something to think about tho for my scumreads: me calling you out is a chance for you to get yourselves off the hook. i am not tunneling in on you, i am aggressively pursuing players who ping my scumdar heavily. this is a chance for you to convince me those were misfires, and i am not an unreasonable person. scum will find my questions difficult. town knows why they do things, they should not have much trouble with them. im hoping at least one of you is scum, gonna be honest, but itd be nice to sort out the at least one innocent from the pile early on so we can take this game by end of d2, so im sure hoping you guys understand i dont want you to fight me, i want you to convince me. things will go quicker like that, js.

this ^^^ is what this whole thing is. what the hell is the point of how you have responded when 492 sums up my motivations?
do you not see how your response would make me assume you have no interest in actually clearing your name and just want people to not suspect you at all period, when you should have read 492 while catching up and should know my motivations here?
do you not understand how your explosion of fury in response to the same thing i did to gbT (but with stronger logic and a less aggressive approach) and tb/shade (but larger because youve posted more than they have) is absurd looking for where im at?
do you not see how calling out things i call NAI as casting shade or w/e is silly when i LITERALLY did not skip a single nonfluff post in your entire ISO when making that masterpost so i mean, OFC things were gonna come up as NAI now and then?
do you not see why, from where i am standing atm, it isnt me not trying to look at your side, its about you not presenting your side in anything but the most ghastly and over-the-top of fashions?

p-edit: fine, ill check. i DO NOT put weight on this, and it will not influence my reads if anything you have told me about your meta thus far is true. gimme some time to read through.

[cassielle]

no, i want you to change your approach and treat it, for ten damn minutes, like its actually a good-faith scumread. ffs.

thus far your linked game is reading way diff from this game overall actually -- way more lighthearted even with no pressure. when someone tried to pressure you, you waved it off super-casually. (which i would actually have taken as a good thing if you had done it here.) etc. you look way different between the two.

and i said it before: meta is something you can quite possibly read and learn how to approach differently, making your scum plays look like town plays. this is why i put very little weight on it. its a "ok, i need to NOT DO/DO MORE OF these things" checklist you can go back over at any time.

[cassielle]

tb and -grey-. tb is a weak one, and i really need to get a third slot in for consideration. gun to my head id grab shade for that third slot, but the two lurkers is the easy lynch -- ONE of the scum is probably in there, sure but both doesnt feel likely to me and they just strike me as an ultra-unlikely scumteam together. i dont like having them both in my scumreads and i REALLY want to eliminate one.

[cassielle]

didnt get that far before i checked back in, my bad. (was referring to ircher fake voting you over and over early on tbh) ok, so you react similarly, but the two attacks are extremely different in style and i really dont see why mine is getting you on this level. im not using the NAI stuff against you, am i? like, i just MENTIONED it. its a masterpost, a condensation of your ISO, and obviously its biased through how i read what i see there. what is with this nuclear detonation? hell, i even thought it over and (reluctantly, sure) encouraged you to clear your name and you still reacted this way. why? why not do like everyone else has and take it down calmly one by one until i am reasonably sure i have a town read on you or you dont seem possible to salvage as a townread?

[cassielle]

jfc i was going slow before i came back and posted a goddamn reply to you and i never actually got to that point. but you know what, go on with your bad self and the personal attacks and the bullshit assumptions /youre/ making about /me/. youre killing every last shred of fun by this point because its turned into some sort of goddamn crusade on me without even considering the remotest possibility that i came by this honestly.

im taking a break

V/LA till tomorrow

[cassielle]

That's twice now I've caught her missing information after accusing me of being scum for missing information.

actualyl no you know what, you want to hammer this slot, hammer this slot. jfc with your hypocritical bs.

VOTE: Cassielle

your move. ill be back tomorrow if the day aint done.

[cassielle]

ahem.

sorry. took a minute, got some food, realized "oh shit right hypoglycemia is a bitch" and decided to reread.

i do NOT think youre giving me a fair shake (like, as a player regardless of alignment, not a a person or just as a town player or w/e) but yeah, you didnt personally attack me. that was frustration combining with irritability from not eating and blending into a mess. overreaction, major apologies there. im usually better than that.

im still going to take that break (should be about ~16-20 hrs all else being equal) but when i come back, i think we need to start this from a different angle.

things to think on:

i did not intentionally misrepresent you. if i misrepresented you at all i dont want you to jump on me with both feet and just start beating tf out of me, i want you to point out specifics calmly. this no-give thing is going to cause a ml.

keep in mind that while you know what you did and what was going on in your head, i dont, i have to guess.

read back through the last few posts and think to yourself if you even gave me the slightest chance of having an honest reason or if you just decided i was lying and didnt deserve the chance.

let someone else, or maybe a couple people, give their thoughts regarding this whole mess.

i /am/ frustrated still, because i feel like you have made up your mind and refuse to even consider the possibility of being wrong, in which case you should not be trying to convince me im wrong, you should be trying to convince other people that you are right.

UNVOTE: Cassielle

apologies again for that. that V/LA is still in effect. tc for now folks

p-edit: i am not reading anything else you post for now. i dont think youre being reasonable in the least and i need time to cool off still. actually read this, please. because honest: ill just replace out if i come back and nothing is different. this is not fun.

[cassielle]

i did not intentionally misrepresent you. if i misrepresented you at all i dont want you to jump on me with both feet and just start beating tf out of me, i want you to point out specifics calmly.

- Accusing me of defending my predecessor
- "target locked" commentary about my 570
- accusing me of being Scum for skimming when you've done the same
- twisting my playstyle as being alignment indicative

going to try and handle this now so you realize i didnt go into this intending to just tear you down and we can be a bit more productive when im ready to get back into the thick of things.

1: that was my read. to be fair i presented it stronger than "imo" or such because fishing for reaction there but yeah i got more than i bargained for. on the quoted list that is the only thing for which that is the case (reaction fishing, i mean). i even posted "ok, that's fair" in response. see 711

2: "target locked" was explicitly stated to be my personal read.

#570 i can practically hear "target locked." thats a bit of hindsight but jfc

again, yeah, stronger than maybe it should be but that is definitely and unmistakably my personal read of it. i dont consider this misrepresentative. this is clearly put out as subjective, from where im sitting. can we agree that i at least represented it as my personal read there?

3: i havent done the same from where im sitting. and also, for me at least, it isnt purescum behavior. its scummy, but not scumclaim-tier. if someone showed evidence of a lot of skimming and the rest was all 100% NAI, thatd be scumlean or light nullscum even for me.

regarding me doing the same: if youre talking about the game you linked, i was /not/ skimming. i was doing the exact opposite and carefully reading through. i had gotten to around page 7 when i tabbed back over to see if anyone had jumped on. i never got to the point you were linking precisely because i wasnt skimming. i think thats one of the things that really ticked me off because to me it didnt make any sense -- if i was way earlier in the game when i tabbed back, wouldnt that imply deep-reading instead of skimming? etc.

you said that was the second time but looking back through i dont see the first, perhaps because it wasnt marked as being about me skimming directly. if you could link to the post ill explain myself. if i dont have a good response i will accept that hey, maybe i did. i was feeling flustered and not myself at all by the end, its very possible i did skim.

4: the playstyle thing im going to drop. to me its strong anti-town, but w/e, you think /my/ playstyle is strong anti-town and apparently i made life hell for rask despite trying to move on to finding a diff strong scumread (which is also my counter to your post regarding the "GET OFF MY BACK" quote) so what the hell.

at this point though, yeah, the whole thing falls apart. im staying off your wagon till endgame short of a LyLo/MyLo situation because this was not fun for me and apparently my playstyle is just going to get us right back where we were earlier. and for that reason im dropping my scumread on you, you're null. wincon is great and all but winning means nothing if im unhappy in the game.

when im ready to actually participate again im going to have to re-read the whole thing because with you off the list the top scum reads make no sense. tb+shade is not a likely team by any means. if you can come up with better, do it. i have nothing and no one else has anything so we need it.

[cassielle]

and ftr: you are very strong town tomost and even initially to me. see: 634. i went into that list withthe idea of reading you as scum because of the scumreads i was having to begin with (i.e., tb+shade+rask) not having a good approach without going after the claimed tracker and your slot having avoided almost all scrutiny from start to finish.

the entire point was to get people to react to it and see how sensible it was. my mistake.

p-edit: i probably was skimming there and im definitely skimming now because your absurd aggressiveness is sapping my will to consider staying involved. i hope you consider that worthy of consideration.

and if its slinging shit to say that it looked to me (AGAIN with the above in mind, that i was looking at it from a scumread point of view to start) like you had found a weak player who was an easy lynch, then scumhunting around you is impossible and i /will/ replace out.

p-edit 2: i said im dropping the damn playstyle thing ffs. what more do you want from me?

[cassielle]

thats cool. thats great, in fact. look, i dont think you actually understand what it is about you that drove me to distraction, so im going to put it out there.

you arent assuming i could have possibly been mistaken. i do not know your head. i dont know what your brain is like, i cant read your thoughts and youre aggressive and snarky in most of your posts here. i have to assume things, because i cannot and do not have a perfect mental model of you as a human being that i can ping for this information. and when i made a bad read of you you treated it as an outright intentional attack on your character as a mafia player, instead of saying "thats not how i do" and explaining how and where im wrong. and you retaliated in kind.

i am not unreasonable. i also dont come into a mafia game looking to get into verbal pankratos matches with people, i come in to have fun.

just, like, when youre looking at my posts, could you treat them coming from that direction instead of as an attempt to impugn your character, spit on your honor and desecrate the graves of your ancestors? i promise you i make so much more sense like that.

[cassielle]

and because my wording, idk, maybe it somehow seems inflammatory, everyones reading me that way idk??

im not saying people dont do that, im saying i personally dont do that because its not cool. im not saying youre DEFINITELY acting that way, im saying thats the only way i can see it from where im standing, i keep retreating at this stage and its like "NO I WILL CAST OUT THE DEMONS" from where im at, and thats not fun, it feels personal in a way it shouldnt, idk

p-edit: im sincerely hoping thats a good thing

[cassielle]

ok??? im really just like

are we cool now? can we get back to scumhunting tomorrow without me worrying that youre gonna tear through like a derailing freight train and turn me into so much pink mulch? again with the caveat of me not saying youre actually etc etc.

[cassielle]

AtE is a valid thing. im not saying dont scumread me, seriously. go ahead, do that all you want. lynch me if you feel like you got a real good reason. just like, dont assume im attacking your dignity as a player and start responding in kind, you know?

i dont mind playing the game, i mind feeling like i cant play the game for all the not-part-of-the-game-entirely stuff on the top. idk, maybe thats how its played here, in which case i really need to read up on more of the meta and reconsider being a part ha.

p-edit: fair. i can work with that and the same goes for me.

[cassielle]

fair. alright, before i relax for the night, schadd_ was who you were calling out. i made a case about him as i came into the game, let me see.

case was defeated p soundly. but the ISO is sparse and .. hmm. im gonna count fluffposts.

13 total fluffposts by my count. also clear buddying with gbT. also i came back across 349 and 350 which are slightly questionable (i know what hes talking about but its really early and really flimsy reasoning)

he has 23 contentful posts and most are NAI. that certainly is interesting.

[cassielle]

in fact thats not far off of peoples scumreads on your slot before you replaced. lots of fluff and buddying and NAI posts. but schadd_ has been in game longer by now, meaning when GAYreen replaced schadd_ was lower and had fewer contentful posts (3 fluffposts were after #350, just 3) which means he would have been close to TB in terms of uninflated postcount around that point.

[cassielle]

exactly one readslist. curiouser and curiouser. and i called out the over-defensiveness to getting scumread originally and it actually /wasnt/ addressed.

does that seem in keeping with him? idk. the ultra-defensive reactions make me lean toward no tho

ah hell. schadd_'s had 4 games. i shouldnt have accepted that response he gave me as is. i had the same issue with GAYreen, couldnt recall wasnt total noob.

p-edit: yes on the questioning but idk about the opinions necessarily. the opinions on an awful lot of slots are practically contentless (GAYreen, me, shade for example).

and only ONE readslist. after two hyperactive replacements and a complete toppling of the table when i came in the game?

p-edit 2: shade's one of the lurk slots like TB. his ISO is short, sweet, and just about unreadable

[cassielle]

yes, including some very interesting ones like the one about getting people to drop their guard

which i just now realized is a valid reason behind your approach to me *connects face to desk*

[cassielle]

just floating possible shadd_ scumteams, schadd_'s hyperdefensiveness about being scumread and general tone of superiority makes me say theres a REALLY good chance of a tb+schadd_ scumteam -- schadd_ wants to get rid of the weak link and coast to endgame under the radar?

shade+schadd_ and rask+schadd_ are also really good pairings. mbg+schadd_ is possible... feels forced but i dont know why i have that vibe. i dont see a -grey-+schadd_ world. everyone else is strong town for me by now.

p-edit: re: the approach thing, you could very well have been trying to irritate and frustrate me purposefully to get my guard down, unfiltered reactions, etc. i dont think its the case but its POSSIBLE and imo i should have thought of that

@mbg: yes this TB promising content and delivering nothing is a common refrain and if i didnt have such an anti town (:p) playstyle id say get him out of here because the vibes are not town, hes lynchbait we cant afford in case of LyLo, and hes muddying the waters

[cassielle]

alright so heres my take? schadd_ has a fluffpost inflated post count. the remainder of posts are high content, low quality posts with no scumhunting. most of it is short NAI posts offering diff views to people who are scumhunting. when called out on a (admittedly weak) case, he aced the majority of it while dodging one of the most important questions (hyperdefensiveness). he has offered precisely one readlist despite not one but TWO major changes in gamestate, and the readlist (when questioned) had thin justifications that i missed because i was thinking of a noobtown, not an SE-equiv scum

his first vote for TB made during RVS is his only vote, and it was placed as post #7 -- we are now at 823 posts in the thread. that is a long ass time to park a post.

p-edit: i like this but im trying to work out a solid new readlist before i consider that wagon just yet.

[cassielle]

EBWOP oh wait i dont have a vote out wtf

VOTE: schadd_ i hate not having a vote out

[cassielle]

also EBWOP @831 park a vote*

i think that case above p much sums it up and its pretty solid. and that parked vote from gamestart makes me feel p good about a tb+schadd_ team

[cassielle]

that exactly precisely thank you. i also feel like a vote that doesnt move much is a wasted vote -- if your vote is gamestate unaware youre prob tunnelled or lurking and if youre town you need to think hard about why your vote hasnt moved

[cassielle]

that exactly precisely thank you.

Do you get why I wasn't concerned about my vote being on Rask for an hour after he claimed?

I was active in the thread, there would have been hell to pay if anyone else voted him.

i totally understand that part. it doesnt feel scummy, its a combination of that with the TB vote AND the fact that the whole thing was explicitly being looked at from a scumread pov. (which is also why it looked biased af, it was intentionally so, a top-down re-examination of the slot)

@mbg: it feels weird and i have no clue why, though im not sure how to take that post rofl

p-edit EXACTLY right, that, but at the same time thatd be as good as a scumclaim/instalynch -- is this like, refuge in audacity or wtf?

[cassielle]

your post man, you jus about said "im scum and schadd_'s my scum buddy" there except im not sure if its possible for you to make that bad of a scumslip seriously

idk @-grey- would this be a policy lynch normally? i have no idea, im weirded out

[cassielle]

i can see finding it reasonable for someone to have a scumread on me. i cannot see "finding it reasonable to consider a world where i am scum" <--- that part is crazy

p-edit: makes sense. thats just creeping me out.

[cassielle]

thats really self-aware/self-analytical thinking.

[cassielle]

thats not really a town way of thinking in general. town knows theyre town, why do they care what others think? town can find town barring exceptional silliness or active scum misdirection.

[cassielle]

ive read it before but that was awhile back. i see i havent been doing it right to be sure ha

[cassielle]

yeah but on my old site we used MS wiki for reference and i read alllll the articles. that was years ago now though heh.

[cassielle]

I was trying to look at the game from the perspective of others, and how others view me.

but back to this.

like i said, thats not a town way of thinking. why do you care about what others think here? youre town and you know it so i dont see why you wouldnt assume that town would find you, esp when theyre looking for scum. if you share their wincon you should fit right in.

[cassielle]

scumhunting isnt a hard science, its more of an art. you have some of the right impulses on some scumreads like TB when that pops up.

my method apparently isnt very good but i find scum by asking everyone a lot of questions all the time and paying attention to the quantity, quality and tone of the answers received. if any of those suffer, i lean hard on that slot until im satisfied (temporarily) or certain (this is why rasks claim hasnt changed my read)

this game is weird though because it keeps trying to settle into kumbaya land so i keep trying to force spurious scumreads before it all crystallizes into a ml tragedy conga line. that might actually be a good method in the majority of games

[cassielle]

EBWOP also this game has had four (!!!!) lurk slots at one point and only about 3 or 4 slots are pushing large quantities of content so its a really slow game and hard to get good reads out of some of the slots. like pulling teeth for tb lol

[cassielle]

actually hold up i need to just

ok.

im feeling scum in tb and schadd_ stronger than shade or p much ANYONE else except rask (who is not going down today). schadd has over 1 3rd fluffposts and most content posts are short and NAI. hes also about half the post count of the next user up and all the other weirdness.
tb on the other hand? not one single content post. none. zero. its empty. you can read that ISO all you want and you can barely pull anything out of it aside from a REALLY weird readslist with all the wrong effort applied to all the wrong places and his wtf? claim. he posts in jots of 1-5 posts, most of which are empty and meaningless fluff. there's also the oft repeated "i will post content tonight!" followed by the sound of a million crickets. if LAL applied to that side of things too hed be a goner already

shade has more original content by volume than schadd_ and tb combined. the density is off the charts considering he has the bottom tier post count and 9 fluffposts out of 21 -- thats like, just under half? theyre also curious and come in predictable spurts and lengths of activity that feel legit.
mbg has low content per post and a meandering sort of curiosity that for me puts him under shade, but still well above tb or schadd_. theres like this gap in my reads now that im re-examining, there is no nullscum, its just null reads - empty line - scum reads

and i got 3 names in that list which is imo the perfect number.

[cassielle]

alright that does it for me. relaxing time.

tc folks

[cassielle]

cleared my original concerns, yes. there are new ones,and some old ones, and my concerns arguably should have been addressed better by you originally.

did you see 876? it's a very good read. from the time i entered the game this has been a concern and it keeps going that way. you keep dodging scrutiny. may or may not be related, but lets live on the edge and just flatly claim that it is, unsupported by evidence.

and you sure are hyperdefensive. vote for you = scum instantly? why? why is scumreading you scummy? and where is your scumhunting behavior? scumhunting is natural to town even if it gets pointed the wrong way once in awhile

why is your vote the same exact vote as post #7? why has that not moved? its safe to say the wagon has stalled, in fact, on multiple separate occasions. do you really believe in that vote that much? do you truly have that much conviction in it? where do you get that conviction from a 23 post ISO which is devoid of content?

why is this second readslist substantially identical to the first aside from "gbT went inactive" "shade is uh something lets call it nulltown" "i actually have an opinion on cass and its mostly because she voted me and tries to aggressively scumhunt"? why would gbT taking a day or two off (because thats all its been, really) instantly drop them to null? why does it seem like you cant form an actual opinion on shade and so you just throw that slot in nulltown? indeed, from your description, why not just null? why are all your reads weak and without conviction?

how the hell are 801 and 838 unanswerable or rhetorical? mbg managed to answer 838, which is the exact opposite of that, and -grey- has pursued and asked followup questions to all of your examples. er, except 801. because, well, you havent even tried to answer it to begin with, just thrown your hands up and said "impossible! must be rhetorical." why dont you want to answer?

[cassielle]

like i originally stated, your post that was about creature was just totally incomprehensible to me -- no quote, no link to post, and it didnt seem to connect to anything in particular. that was less misrepresentation, less misinterpretation, and more "i dont even know what the hell this is can someone identify this species" outright confusion. i still do not know what that post means, how to parse it, anything. its impenetrable to me.

intention was JUST to get you to point out wtf you were talking about lol because i couldnt identify it.

[cassielle]

it wasnt the read itself (which was later anyway) its that that post didnt seem like a read. it seemed sorta like casting shade or a fluffpost (and still does even from a null or townread perspective -- meaning it stands out in your ISO). your words were "If I saw what I thought I saw IRT Creature, that was really, really stupid." you could have been talking about something creature did/said, about someone having something to do with creature (some weird post??? idk), ANYTHING -- i dont have any idea what that post is about. at all.

that wasnt me misrepresenting you because from where im at theres nothing to represent, its just this critical post referring to anything or nothing and i have no clue what it could refer to beyond roughly a quarter of the posts in thread from a wide variety of players -- which doesnt help anyone narrow it down by now

p-edit: i have long noticed tb has been active in every game but this one, yes, but i dont want to risk talking about active games so ive put it off. i do encourage everyone to go have a look at the players recent posts tho, because yeah, he needs to replace tf out or contribute and instead hes coasting by promising content that will never come because it doesnt exist

suspicious

but i like schadd_ more for this by far.

[cassielle]

thats fair, but i had no way of knowing /that/ either. i had no way of knowing anything about it

again, thats your point, but i then have to say like, well, i dont feel like thats fair to jump in and call that misrepresentation. you explicitly withheld any information by which i could judge the post, and thats fine and good, but then i have to guess when i am trying to interpret it and the whole imperfect knowledge, etc.

not meant to try and interpret it? cool, but i cannot know that unless you tell me that and im scumhunting, im gonna try to assign interpretations and motivations to EVERYTHING

the whole thing ends up with me basically saying

if you want to say that is misrepresentative, tell me how i could have drawn /any/ conclusions about that post /at all/ -- and i do mean /any/ conclusions, short of "you know how to type" or "you are proficient in the english language" -- and i will accept that i misrepresented you outright without further explanation from your side.

p-edit:
curiouser and curiouser

but i agree, the schadd_ wagon feels like its going places

[cassielle]

there are ways of answering questions that dont have direct, up-front answers. mbg gives a primer in 840

[cassielle]

fair enough. generally i dont question that much, i just didnt understand that post at all. but ill drop it.

interesting that schadd_ handles your post but then sees mine and says "nope, do it later." hes at l-1, that seems to me like a very poor move.

[cassielle]

doesnt answer it no, but did at least put forth the effort to look like he had at a glance.

and its interesting, i said -- not indicative of anything in particular. its possibly (especially considering how much pressure gets put on lurkslots this game) even a worse move for scum than for town. interesting but NAI (this time where A stands for anything). id still like to hear why its the case

[cassielle]

wow interesting to come back to. twice. first: wake up in the morning, someone hammered a lynch without intent or anything and ended the day before i could even get to meet them. and then today, im the fashionable scumread.

i find it weird absolutely no one has questioned gbT or Radiant's scumread of me? but ok

ill claim now because if its sheeptime again then i doubt anyone will give me the chance to do it at the usual point in time, not that it matters because im a safe lynch if yall really want to mylo or something

Vanilla Townie

regarding this gamestate at this point in time:

i still stand by short days being worse for town, even though apparently thats not a widely held view. you can put that on my grave if i get MLed for this mess. radiant's talk about everyone getting 24 hrs then hammering 20 minutes later is anti-town all by itself imo tho, so i think my point will get across. really weird swing from shade's slot though, must be how people felt about me replacing rakkar

i still think schadd_ did not address anyones concerns and that i really, really want to hear more from him soon on them. regardless of radiant's read of him.

i stand by my rask read (i.e., superscum). the others im mostly tossing out because of tb flipping town (weakened schadd_ read somewhat) and the lack of nk, something is weird and idk what it is precisely. my reads were crap (though tb looked p undeniably like scum) from start to finish and i need to review the topic.

right now i have two reads. creature (town) and rask (scum). its gonna take awhile for me to get a reasonable readslist together. this game is bizarre.

p-edit: radiant is reading stronger and stronger scum before i even review the topic, just from 957 onward. not so much 957 itself (i dont scumread people for scumreading me, its poor play imo) but in conjunction with what happens after it and the completely incomprehensible creature scumread.

[cassielle]

were at 4. radiant, gbt, creature, rask. l-1

last words: gbT i hope that was an honest mistake

and when i flip green yall need to reconsider these pointless short days. you completely skipped scumhunting in favor of an easy sheep mislynch, gj town :p

[cassielle]

my bad somehow i missed that when hunting for votes. maybe confused with radiant's early unvote

[cassielle]

ok going over the topic:

schadd_ still reads scummy. not as scummy but still scummy. light scumlean? something like that. idk how people are missing what me and grey saw there, its fluff everywhere and almost no scumhunting. a lot of helping people who are scumhunting but no real work himself. very defensive when scumread or questioned.

matts also looking scummy. we keep giving him outs because hes new and hes not unaware enough to not take them, but i mean... way im seeing it: just because someone is new to mafia does not mean they are new to manipulating group dynamics, esp blame-game dynamics (which is the basis of mafia in essence). we should probably be tougher on his mistakes and not be so quick to offer a town-explanation, which is as much my fault as anyone's. theres also the quickness to frame tb's actions in the way he did when radiant jumped into the game

gbT is unreadable currently. lack of info? no, but lack of something. i want to say gbT is a townread but i feel like i may have dismissed my earlier questions too early and i dont see any real reason to believe that a townread is a good fit there.

radiant is pinging my scumdar for a lot of the reasons -grey- did, but without the convoluted thought process to get there; it just falls out of the posts. i can see a world where radiant is town, but it doesnt feel likely. however that slot had a good (if sparse) run as Shade, so im not comfortable making this a strong read

-grey- is null for reasons discussed prior. ill take a strong stand on him when it gets to lylo/mylo, if im alive that long.

creature is town.

rask is scum. im pretty sure this idea is about as popular as diving off a cliff atm so im not going to press this. i cannot get traction on that wagon and i know it

p-edit: regarding discrediting your townbloc, gbT: i was in fact trying to do that. ill even tell you why. but first: if you really think that the way i shook up the gamestate was totally unnecessary, id like to see it in a post, clearly spelled out

[cassielle]

actually no. the push on me is entirely irrelevant. its the same thing i got on you about on d1 -- ending day early -- combined with "24 hrs to respond" followed 20 minutes later by a day-ending hammer, combined with an incomprehensible creature scumread. shade did have a good showing though and im not ready to toss that slot out entirely on the basis of a relatively small quantity of posts. im mostly floundering for good reads

p-edit: lie? i didnt lie about anything to the best of my knowledge, point out what youre seeing?

please actualyl read 974. particularly the last two paragraphs before the p-edit. i am ditching my reads because i was mistaken about something and i need to figure out what before i can build a new townblock. so im keeping my townreads minimal on /that/ basis alone. but y'know get on me about misrepping your play then do same to mine ofc

p-edit2: re: 999: because i dont treat someone as my absolute best possible scumread and want to lynch them after they claim unless im dead certain. why has no one counterclaimed? idk maybe he is town, in which case ok, im making a mess of things here. but im feeling certain enough to be assuming atm that there is a diff reason theres no CC.

[cassielle]

so i wont try? my concerns with rask are shared with no one, that wagon isnt goingto ever get traction at this point, ive stated as much and im fully aware of it. trying to get him lynched in, say, lylo or mylo is pointless -- no townie will jump on board and the (possible) scumbuddy cant bus alone, i can ONLY hurt town (worst case) or waste my vote (best). ive given up that wagon, believe me, i just still feel it

p-edit: im staying off a grey wagon unless someone can REALLY convince me

[cassielle]

rakkar's slot is my slot, my opinion is my role pm says im town :\

p-edit: its not even a push at this point rask, more of a ridiculous belief system thats well past its expiration date but still being used to make decisions

and believe me i know how ridiculous i look here

[cassielle]

i meant for town, but ok. your (and everyone elses, the blame isnt wholly on you here) townreads were so heavily crystallized that you scumread tb and rakkar and EVERYONE else was more or less town. tb flipped town and im town. ergo, the townblock you initially had was wrong. QED.

why did i do it the way that i did? well, why was the townblock so crystallized?

because the majority of the slots were so strongly townread no one even considered the possibility of one of them being scum in disguise

ergo, we needed to look at those slots in detail. my methods were geared toward that. i cleared people quickly because i was trying to find the scum, not waste my time with probable townies.

p-edit: GAYreen was a weird case. my read is "probably town" but i examined that ISO front and back and theres weirdness that feels noob, but GAYreen wasnt a noob iirc

p-edit 2: thats an interesting list creature

[cassielle]

p-edit: GAYreen was a weird case. my read is "probably town" but i examined that ISO front and back and theres weirdness that feels noob, but GAYreen wasnt a noob iirc

search.php?author_id=29124&sr=topics

What is he, then?

OK i'm here now, just got out of school , anyways, I came from PS! Mafia like gigabyteTroubadour did. So why is TB being lynched?

first post in topic from gayreen

[cassielle]

ok thats fair then. town then

[cassielle]

MOD: i just realized, Radiant's slot still says Shade

[cassielle]

the same. again, i already know that wagon is going nowhere and that voting on it is suicide -- if you are indeed town it can only hurt town to vote your slot, and if you are indeed scum theres no way ill ever convince anyone at this point and your possible scumbuddy cant bus you alone. ive made peace with it. its w/e. im not trying to convince anyone of it even (i stopped that back shortly after you claimed).

p-edit: questioning the reasons for your vote is not the same thing as saying it was a bad vote

[cassielle]

i know precisely how it works rask, i get it. its like someone claims cop in a fixed setup with one cop and no one counterclaims. i get the picture. im really, really confident of that read though. even though theres literally no point in it. can we drop it? like, for real. im never going to vote your slot anyway, its essentialyl semantics

p-edit yeah i know, i get it lol

[cassielle]

please actualyl read 974. particularly the last two paragraphs before the p-edit. i am ditching my reads because i was mistaken about something and i need to figure out what before i can build a new townblock. so im keeping my townreads minimal on /that/ basis alone.

i explained precisely why everyones at null or scum atm. twice, as you can see. i also dont have a vote out because i have no confidence in those current reads of mine for reasons i explained in 974 and i dont want to inadvertently push town into a bad situation with another ml.

but yall really wanting that ml can go for it. im getting nowhere anyway with this lol

im just gonna sit this here in the meantime though. its not like my measly vote on a non-wagon with two people inexplicably fighting for townreading it is going anywhere and i dont wanna go down on this ml without putting a vote out.

VOTE: schadd_

and just

wow, town. wow. i really dont got much else to say here. the rask scumread was a lame gambit that sort of relied on me not being wagoned off a cliff d2 for reasons completely invisible to me, and a lot of ultraspurious reasoning that just completely throws posts i made out the window (e.g. mbg's post just up there conflating why i broke up the townblock the way i did with my readslist today, ignoring my twice-stated reasons that that readslist is crazy bad, etc) to come to a conclusion not supported by the premises because the premises themselves are w r o n g

not to mention i dont even see how "i have this dumb unsupported belief on someone, isnt that weird you guys" is scummy to begin with since it just makes me a damn target but w/e

i really dont got anything else for you all and at this stage im really sure this ml is going through regardless of anything i say or do. schadd_ is my best lead, when i inevitably flip green go after him imo. if that is a ml then we didnt deserve to win from where im at

oh and re: me trying to make players think about the game a certain way: re-read 1024. everyone was thinking everyones town except for a conftown slot (tb) and me (also town), which means that everyone was thinking wrong, /QED/, the argument is plain and simple and out in the open and the logic holds regardless of your opinions on what my alignment is or how my play is. it lasted throughout d1 because the townblock kept trying to crystallize around the two lurkslots (after tb and my slot it was tb and shade with most of the remaining slots treated as conftown -- tb was town, ergo townreads were STILL incorrect, QED, even AND ESPECIALLY mine)

at least now people have a few /different/ ideas on who is town and who is scum. shame im the one thing they all agree on but w/e, theres a chance town can come back after my ml, wincon isnt entirely out the window just because im dead for all practical purposes

[cassielle]

for a minute there i thought maybe we could actually scumhunt properly (yknow instead of trying to pick the easiest player to build a case on when QED all of our townreads are messed up) but im p sure most of town is going to take that deal in 1096 because im easiest target

only issue is that im gonna flip green

im standing by 1092

im also gonna say that ... TOWN: regardless of your opinion on his reads: RadiantCowbell's post 1095 is /mandatory reading/
there will be a /test/
seriously, reread that post until it is burned into your brain
your town block contains one or both scum
you need to lynch them before you run out of MLs
today is the best time but im willing and ready to go down as a martyr on this so you can get it right d3*
again: you are townreading scum, period

*-this is partially because somehow and i dont know how, i have no credibility here anymore, so ive given up on being able to save myself. its not MyLo or LyLo so idc too much.

[cassielle]

if its meaningless to say "someone in your townblock is very probably scum and very few players are acting at all aware of this, yall need to get up and scumhunt instead of finding an easy lynch" then i can accept meaningless

but i think saying that ^ is meaningless isnt very town regardless

still really feeling my vote on you friend. idk how youre getting townreads and im hoping at least one of your major townreaders can see where us who doubt you are coming from.

IN CASE MY ONE SENTENCE SUMMARY ABOVE IS STILL UNCLEAR:

as of today ive seen scumhunting from radiant, creature and rask.

gbt came up with a fav scumteam early in the day on the basis of their very-very-likely-incorrect townblock and never reconsidered.
schadd_ has contributed little or nothing to discussion other than fluffposting, a vote and some real low-content NAI stuff at my posts.
grey has contributed little to nothing of substance to the discussion at all aside from responding to some interrogation from rask.
mbg has mostly been trying to understand others peoples reads it seems, and voted me then unvoted me on the back of other players high content posts (1 per vote) with little actual contribution himself

3 people have actively been looking at any other slots but mine d2 -- which means that 3 people are gonna have the remotest clue on steps to take when i flip green, and everyone else is going to be literal days behind in the gamestate because yall are so damn attached to your townblocks jfc

that is the meaning of 1097, and if you can still consider it meaningless then idk what to say, thats about as plain and obvious as it gets right there, town is not acting in towns best interests no matter which of you are actually town

and no just because a couple people are having doubts and im at l-3 does not mean i am feeling safe. im still the easy lynch from where im sitting and im expecting the wagon to rebuild on some ill-considered reasoning or another before long, so im coming at this like im just waiting for night to fall atm

[cassielle]

lets assume for a moment im town (because well). point me at an ISO here, because ive been reading all of them over and over in circles for ages now and i am out of ideas. i need a fresh perspective or at least an impetus, something

id rather not go down with my last words being "well, i think schadd_ might be scum but other than that i got nothing guys"

[cassielle]

if -grey- is scum my favorite scumpartner is mbg

certain degree of separation there (lack of serious questioning, not much attempt to understand motivations), helpful tone, nulltown-ish reads, etc

all of which is just as easily explained by -grey- playing town which makes mbg's alignment unreadable from that. but thats who id pick for a -grey- scumbuddy, gun to my head

because i dont see a schadd_+-grey- team (-grey- was fully prepared to lynch schadd_ right there with initially little weight on that wagon) and most other players are too involved with -grey- for it to feel like scumpartners, theres no attempt at distancing from either side in any other discussion involving -grey- afaict

and do keep in mind this is a really loaded view to get this particular tidbit out, nothing falls out of the ISO. do not need to be violently discorporated and hammered into the earth today please

[cassielle]

i was keeping both sides in mind when typing that but ok my bad apologies sorry

[cassielle]

i doublechecked just to make absolutely sure and im wrong null-scum-ish ok, i misremembered mbg townreading you at some point -grey- and thats where the nullTOWNish thing came from because i was talking about both of you and trying to average the reads out (hence the -ish)

jeez sorry

[cassielle]

rask idfk tbph

my best, absolute best scumread is schadd_

and its apparently trash

go for the ml if you will at least use the fact that i flipped town as a chance to really recheck those reads, im beyond thinking i can get myself out of it at this point

[cassielle]

@gbT: its not so much being demoralized as recognizing that if the wagon shifts elsewhere, it will not be because of my own actions. it will be other people shifting their opinions and thats not something i can control other than keeping that ml a constant reminder. i dont really have any defense of myself that i havent offered already, i have no role of note, i have no good reads that are worth having around; im an easy lynch whos widely scumread and my reads are so weak that the chances of getting someone to say "hey that looks good" are minimal to nil

@rask: it was an old site thats gone toxic and awful and i dont really want to talk about it because it was a pretty bad split. i burned a lot of bridges with my final exit and dont want anyone being like "I REMEMBER YOU"

i will say however that it wasnt a mafia-focused site in the least, the meta was mellow (so i got lynched a lot on d1 as town and coasted as scum). i dont consider myself a noob to mafia despite that; just a noob at this site

[cassielle]

i cant see gbT in either town or scum

schroedinger alignment atm for me, theres a lot of townposts but i do not understand this schadd_ townread its inexplicable to me and the idea of radiant as scum is looking less and less likely as time wears on

i disagree with the reads radiant has but they were seeing the same exact issues i am with the gamestate before p much anyone else recognized there was a /problem/ with their approach

@rask: seriously tho if youre weakening your read on emotional grounds dont bother im not emotional about being scumread or having a looming hammer

i just know i have no defense left to give and so i dont see a way out of a ml here, and i do know that the townies on my wagon will at least get a fire under their ass when they see me flip green, so im ok with being a d2 ml. it helps my wincon because my critics have to reread my ISO from a town perspective

[cassielle]

okay now you're taking it too far

you know you only have like 2 votes on you right?

yeah but im pretty sure theyll be coming back?

no one has good reads at the moment since its been pointed out that the townblocks have lurking scum. everyone agrees: cass is scummy feeling. they might not like the wagon but that just means theyre doing what town does, scumhunting, not that they are off the wagon for good

im approaching it fatalistically. best case scenario, d3 is a fresh start and ill have had a lot of time where im mostly putting out my reads and feeling my way around the gamestate visibly, either clearing myself outright or finding the scumpartners. worst case scenario, im right and i have gotten a full dayphase of stuff done without the wagon reforming on me while im playing like normal again, before i get a chance to really parse the changes. either way, good for town.

[cassielle]

tbh schadd_ flipping town would also help.

explain how this is the case? i dont see this narrowing things down at all. theres like one person from where im standing that schadd_ couldnt be scumpals with? where is this coming from, that doesnt help at all if schadd_ flips town!

[cassielle]

yeah im not feeling this at all. i cant articulate the flaw in your argument (the in case he flips town part), but i can def feel theres a flaw in it. this doesnt parse right with a town wincon.

UNVOTE:

im considering your wagon. it looks juicier than schadd_'s about now. what the hell?

[cassielle]

when i got weak reads and then this comes out of nowhere i guess it isnt that hard to overshadow your wagon

but keep in mind that since the start of d2 ive been considering yours most highly of all schadd_, so its a p big change from my side of things lol

[cassielle]

yeah because ive been dismissing the arguments against the meta but here it is, the meta looks wrong, and ill never again trust a supposedly foolproof meta

should have learned that lesson when i learned the one about metas in general

and "juicier" in this contest should be understood like talking about fruit: i expect a squeeze on x wagon to get more juice (i.e., higher probability of scum flip) than one on y wagon

i hope that stops it from being evasive?

[cassielle]

just read through creature's ISO

@gbT and rask: could you do me a favor? ignore creature d1 and take a look over his d2 for me in the ISO? want to make sure im not seeing things -- again -- and you two know creature meta

927 is creature's first d2 post

[cassielle]

im trying to get reads atm by discarding the front half of d1 where everyone sort of blends in but the lurk slots.

fun ISOs, good reading: creature d2, schadd_

i have a hard read again! radiant is pretty towny from where im sitting. i DEEPLY DISAGREE with his gameplay and reads for the most part but i cant find a scum motivation, a lot of heavy town motivation falls out of it. reading it as if confscum makes it an empty ISO outside of a couple "AHA" standouts that fall apart under further scrutiny, where the opposite reading has me sort of nodding my head even tho i cringe at choices being made now and then. more meat with town-read, empty calories with scum-read, i recommend trying it yourself

also this is consistent with my shade read so im happier with this than my prior "i dont like the day ending early and i disagree with this gameplay" read. now i wont say radiant is obvtown, because no, definitely not -- but itd take a really big change in character or an insanely good argument to change my mind here

gbT still just, i have no good reads. its not even like its a content-free ISO, its just that to read either alignment makes me want to discard fully half of their ISO as NAI, and they arent the SAME parts. leaning ever so slightly town. someone convince me on this either way

mbg reads scummy as stated before but i dont feel strongly enough about it to say "oh hes nullscum in my reads" -- no, just null, the scumminess assumes noobscum or ultrabadscum and if im letting noobscum be a valid argument (considering noobplayer) then noobtown is equally valid and the whole thing falls apart with that

i want rask and gbT to examine creature's d2 iso. esp rask because conftown. i also want gbT's explanation of schadd_ townread because its inexplicable to me

i also want rask and radiant to put out a current, up-to-date readslist no matter how weak, i want to try and see where theyre coming from and focus on those parts, because im pretty sure theyre town and that feels like a really good place to start when i have no conviction in most of my current reads

[cassielle]

no but for real i do want to see your reads rask

and your opinion on creature's ISO, d2 only

id summarize the ISO but thats what got me where im at rn anyway so im being lazy/safe a bit to draw the day out for towns sake

@radiant youve mentioned a lot of scumreads but no townreads, give me something to work with here lol

[cassielle]

just two questions:

is there a reason youre listing schadd_ as a weaker read than you implied before? y/n is enough if you dont want to go into detail or w/e

whats mbg's towniness from? any particularly exemplary post you could point at off the top of your head?

[cassielle]

i was gonna post something about "im not yet wholly convinced on the creature wagon" and the 1 liners schadd_ mentioned being pretty prevalent yeah but seeming town until at least middle of d2 (around when he said he wanted people off my wagon in fact, which is sort of silly but what can you do)

then i remembered the open ISO digging with very little actual commentary on it on d1. that seems sort of like a "look, im doing work see" kinda deal? yeah i was sort of egging it on but i also was thinking conftown at that time. in hindsight it added up to nothing except "oh look creature's scumhunting" and sheeping my rask read on an unstated basis? is that an unfair read of that? im not sure

idk. when i lead wagons they seem to crash. i guess im sheeping my best non-rask townread on the basis of
1: townreads contained scum throughout d1 and into d2
2: creature shook my faith in his meta
3: i understand the arguments being presented against that slot where i dont understand them with other slots (or at least not as well)
4: i feel creature and schadd_ wagons are about equally likely to hit scum here

VOTE: Creature l-2

[cassielle]

i dont agree for radiant. not in the least. i see playstyle stuff i mistook in -grey-'s case as well and a lot of unusual reads (where does this schadd_ townread come from i do not understand???) but everything feels town from that corner in its basis. i couldnt pick it out in an obvious fashion, its mostly the result of a lot of deep introspection on their posts and "does this have any way of advancing their wincon as one alignment or the other". as i said before, theyre not obvtown by a longshot but a decent look over their ISO should confirm my read there

you feel like your wincon could go either way when i look at your posts and today at least you feel less town than you should, particularly with the posts that i unvoted schadd_ over but not /just/ those

also your best defense of gbT makes them feel more scum imo so thats a thing

[cassielle]

i dont hold with meta because its possible to manipulate for anyone sufficiently self-conscious i think?

but i dont exactly go by textbook either

its mostly a personal repertoire of heuristics ive built up over a long period of time. "this tends to be scum". ive read games both on and off of the site i was a member of extensively, etc, and discarded useless heuristics based purely on "this worked in the small circle of people i played with"

they dont all seem to work anymore (or maybe thats just this weirdo game) but i dont really have much else to go off of yet so im going to stick to them for now

that said: i dont work well with a lot of read-styles -- i dont trust my gut reads, tone reads feel easily faked imo, logic reads are also easy to fake because you can stick to a regimented, scheduled playstyle with lots of self-editing to force the matter. content and introspection are my preferred methods of going through a persons post history. but i dont know this sites meta in detail yet so content is tough, i keep farming out the decision of "does this look right" to other players because of that. and sadly its tough to explain introspective reads to people, theyre the result of a long and convoluted train of thought more than anything

i did used to (as in, until the past ~24hrs in this game) hold with "foolproof" meta, as that feels like its baked into someone and they cant help it, like a tic. but well, you arent feeling town anymore, and in fact struck me as deeply scummy there. i tried to hold off but even a light skim over your ISO with "possibly scum" in mind reads really bad for you so here we are

[cassielle]

actually, i have a question, how did you not know giga had wiggleroom in their d1 townblock? you did do a huge review of the entire playerbase on d1, seems like the sort of thing youd pick up?

[cassielle]

wrt gbT:'s thoughts thus far on creature d2: waiting for rask to talk about it, i really want conftown's thoughts more than yours tbh

wrt mbg/rc scumteam: i see it from matt in a sense but the same is true when it comes to a large amount of the players here tbh-- HOWEVER!
however, mbg has been pushing for lynches with a bit more invective on the side when it comes to the lurkslots of d1. see: when RC questions TB on schadd_ wagon 913 and 1292 and compare to 99.9999% of mbg's ISO

mbg doesnt get that sort of acid in his tone outside of pushing for d1 lurk slot lynches (e.g. tb, shade/-grey-). hell, even i dont get the same sort of reactions from mbg when he pushes on my slot. thoughts guys?

ftr: i dont agree that mbg matches well with rc, because rc doesnt feel scum to me atm

[cassielle]

EBWOP: (e.g. tb, shade, -grey-), not shade/-grey-

[cassielle]

i was gonna say yeah that seems -grey-, the snarkiness

thats like just the tone in which i read everything -grey- posts tbh

[cassielle]

Yeah, I said I was townreading you in 1237.

So?

grey can i get a reads list

If I had one, sure.

At this point, all I know for sure is that I don't want to lynch you or Creature.

RC is fishing for lynches here, and I'm getting fed up with it.

just pointing out that gbT isnt in that post anywhere

still not seeing the issue gbT has there tho

[cassielle]

thats more or less what i thought was the case there yeah. just because you dont mention someone...

interestingly despite saying id stay null on you im convinced of town here, because like, i have a really good mental model of you now (can partially predict incoming posts?) and it says "oh btw im town" after every sentence like clockwork

scum is probably within creature, mbg, schadd_ from where im at. i could be swayed on gbT but i think that if gbT is scum then town lost, straight up, i cant see a way to form that wagon

rask is conftown, grey and rc are strong town, gbT is schroedinger alignment, schadd_ mbg creature have the whiff of brimstone and vile secrets to them

[cassielle]

also reminder for rask: do want that d2 creature ISO opinion + your current reads

[cassielle]

i read RC as town on the basis of trying to look at the ISO as "what does scum get from this" and "what does town get from this"

scum gets a ml and then theyre the loudest and most convenient target because they pushed for a ml no one else was perfectly happy with and got it
like if creature flipped town id park on the rc wagon til game end purely on principle and i dont see why anyone else wouldnt because i mean theyre the loudest and easiest to read as scum atm, so itd be a guaranteed suicide play, not an endgame play imo

town gets a slot that has avoided scrutiny properly looked at and gets one of their targets handled.

town motivation makes most sense, town motivation wins for me

[cassielle]

also im not sure creature flipping town would narrow the game down, let me see here

yeah no im not seeing it. it will give you a lot of conf bias tho because im on wagon and i think mbg, grey or rask are most likely to be the joiners, i dont see gbt jumping on board

1 rask tells you nothing
2 grey makes you tunnel on me and grey which are already your top scumreads (and not only is one wrong, i think grey is town too)
3 mbg at most requires one alignment doublecheck on his slot and you tunnel on me (grey optional depending on if he joins)

im curious how you can see this as helping town since it would at most add one name to your list and in any other likely case just reinforce your preconceptions? it doesnt narrow anything down unless youre willing to rethink schadd_

note: i do not feel creature is likely to flip town atm. the hinting that RC might see a possible town!creature flip in the future is concerning though

[cassielle]

so do i

but when thats the case i weaken that read. for me my reads are ordered not on how scummy that person looks but on how sure i am of that scum read being correct

as an example of this method in practice: not only is the "entertaining the idea of a town!creature flip" thing pinging me, so is RC's best argument in favor of -grey- townreading him being"i started a counterwagon"
which -grey- sums up for me the "why" of that pinging me pretty succinctly: town cares about scum being lynched, town doesnt care about starting counterwagons to a wagon already on a half-decent lynch target

so rc is dropping back to nulltown, because while the rest of the ISO reads better with a town wincon, these two bits dont parse with a town wincon. one doesnt read right at all and one reads better as scum

ill leave it as an exercise for the reader to decide which is which