Micro 687: Vanilluxe Mafia - Mafia Victory!!!

[borkjerfkin]

Hi guys

VOTE: bella

[borkjerfkin]

maybe the tiniest inkling of a townread on SS

[borkjerfkin]

well i know what everyone's gonna be talking about for the next 3 pages now thanks for that

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: Sobolev Space

Hi Sobolev! I'm town this time, are you?

VOTE: GuiltyLion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

@GL: any thoughts on how SS responded to your Q or were just using this as an RVS opening

[borkjerfkin]

to me it seemed if she were scum she'd likely have focused on directly addressing the question in the latter part of the statement rather than focusing on paranoia wrt the former part
i'll admit i have fuckall else to go on in this game so far

[borkjerfkin]

i have stuff to ask in clarification about 26 but I want SBF/you to do your things first

[borkjerfkin]

For what it's worth I was planning on voting GL here like that ever since our last game ended. The vote on me/question to me had no bearing on my first post.

noted i guess, it fit as a response in context so i treated it as one

[borkjerfkin]

if she's town she should probably recognize quickly that this is not my scumgame, so if she scumreads me then she's confirmed scum.

[borkjerfkin]

like how many games have you played on site?

[borkjerfkin]

to GL.

[borkjerfkin]

although, SS, I think you're reinforcing my own point with that answer

[borkjerfkin]

VOTE: GuiltyLion

you're straining the bounds of my credulity that you think because someone (who recently got snowed by you at that) just saw your scumgame that they'd never possibly roll town and legitimately misread you again; it instead sounds like posturing

i ask how many games you played because people misread each other game after game after game and someone who's been on site and has played 40+ games should know that

p-edit: this one.

[borkjerfkin]

that was not at all clear to me

UNVOTE:

[borkjerfkin]

aka you don't think i'm scum w/ GL?

[borkjerfkin]

I think it's a bad argument but

bork seemed to be pushing back on it enough for me.

can you clarify the bolded?

[borkjerfkin]

got it, thought you meant something earlier

[borkjerfkin]

i am curious as to how you differentiate how scum-me handles that on a townie vs on a buddy

[borkjerfkin]

Like guiltylion didnt really do anything there except not explain himself well; it barely even qualifies as an interaction; it is moreso an analysis of him by me

[borkjerfkin]

i'd be cool if this were a high activity game but like player-mod interactions are becoming way too high % of the post count in this game

[borkjerfkin]

meh i looked and that wasn't really fair of me

game does need more breadth from ~5 or so people though

[borkjerfkin]

that is scum motivated because ____?

[borkjerfkin]

do you have anything to contribute that might actually move the game forward?

[borkjerfkin]

i think the vast majority of my posts have been pretty game relevant

what's your angle at this point? you have self voted and (to my surprise) most people are actually ignoring it, which is great because i think self votes are generally a noisy mess done by both alignments
what now?

[borkjerfkin]

i was hoping SBF would've commented on whether or not her vote on you was in reaction to your self vote or if it was RVS

Since that doesn't seem to be coming, I also want to know how GulityLion was perceiving it when he made 26

[borkjerfkin]

i mean, i don't have meta or proof or anything, it's a gut response - but i feel like that was obvious anyway, so why as[k] me?

I reserve the right to ask about things I don't understand -- I didn't see why you were flagging my reaction (vote -> clarification -> unvote) as contingent on GL's alignment instead of just calling me scummy or towny or null, because GL didn't

do

anything there except clarify himself.

[borkjerfkin]

i know what you're saying, i just am trying to understand your thought process

[borkjerfkin]

Of all the reasons to townread me that is a fucking weird one

[borkjerfkin]

Well hey at least between you and bella exactly one of you is right

Lol

[borkjerfkin]

I would indeed expect a scumflip from me to indict rather than clear GL (if anything) for that really abortive interaction

[borkjerfkin]

But honestly i think GL is on the level with that explanation

[borkjerfkin]

I'm right here.

It was "i am satisfied with what i have from ss and gl now and i am ready to branch out to the rest of the playerlist". Im not frustrated as much as i am unable to proceed.

[borkjerfkin]

The whole situation is hypothetical from bella's point of view since i am talking about what i think

she

should think of the interaction. That is why i worded it how i did.

The former thing you quoted isnt the sentiment i was trying to express, a scumflip from GL should perfectly allow for the fact that im town that just saw something scummy.

The latter is another acceptable way to word it

[borkjerfkin]

I think the sentiment expressed in 112 comes from town; lowell why do you call it twitchy?

[borkjerfkin]

Not really thrilled with a sbf vote right now; are you somewhere between town and null with every other player?

[borkjerfkin]

Why the townlean on eddie? I dont really think he's done anything to analyze his self-vote-reaction-test thing or really much of anything else

P-edit, essentially this

[borkjerfkin]

I also dont really think GLs interactions with SS have been awkward; what looks like a pocket here?

Pedit wow

[borkjerfkin]

I would say i have a moderate townread on ss and a minor one on gl at this point

Pedit heh. that was uncanny

[borkjerfkin]

Your progression in 109 and 112 is just an angle i really only think i can see from someone who is really trying to figure me out and displays undercurrents of paranoia that i think is hard for scum to organically weave into posts

that might be the most involved explanation of "gut" i have ever given

[borkjerfkin]

re: bella; 58 is an easy observation to make (I can pick two players at random from the playerlist and say they're not scum together and be virtually guaranteed to be right) -- i think negative associatives are helpful when you've got two people you find independently scummy already and realize they're not partners;

i also disagree with that my play there, if i were scum, would really have changed based on if GL was my buddy or not. This is why I was trying to see where her head was in making that statement.

That said I don't really feel that she's scum for either these things; it wasn't the strongest opening in the world but I don't think it really shows scum motivation and I'm a little put off by Frogger's (due to 80? why?) and Lowell's (I honestly have no idea) professed scumreads on her

[borkjerfkin]

Hello, everyone, I'm now here. Back at work, and avoiding work, to your great advantage. Quick recap:

8-9- lion and sob play footsie
30- bork tries hard
32- bork tries hard
46- bork tries hard
48- lion reacts strangely to bork trying hard
51- bella tries not hard enough
59- bork tries hard
70s- eddie continues trolling
80- bella elaborates, sort of
112- twitchy post from sobolev
.

Also what is any of this? Was i scum for 'tryharding' or whatever? Why? Why am i town now

I dont get the thought proceas behind most of your reads

[borkjerfkin]

i mean, i don't have meta or proof or anything, it's a gut response - but i feel like that was obvious anyway, so why as[k] me?

This felt tonally town. I don't expect to be lambasted by scum for questioning them; i expect to be appeased more often than not.

[borkjerfkin]

and you have been contributing. you're a town lean for me.

what exactly has Bork done to earn a tr that can't be easily faked by scum?

But is anything truuuuuly unfakeable

maeksuthink

(Any reads?)

[borkjerfkin]

You could perhaps stand to chill

[borkjerfkin]

And i dont think that professing that two players arent scum together is "really putting oneself out there"

[borkjerfkin]

K man

[borkjerfkin]

She often makes some really sarcastic subtle points, or has these retorts that I can't explain that just scream town bella. They aren't there yet. Add in the combination of her conclusion jumping, and it's weird.

This is a much more salient point

[borkjerfkin]

I am satisfied i think that you believe what you are saying.

[borkjerfkin]

I do see; she feels comfortable in her own skin in what you linked.

absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, esp in the sample size we have. Noting and keeping my eye on it, but fuck if i havent been burned by meta recently and i am probably going to keep to motivational and interactive methods of scumhunting this game, esp considering i have played with none of you personally

[borkjerfkin]

Lowell and SS are town.

Why is lowell town

[borkjerfkin]

Well i can only speak for myself, but i am not currently scumreading you

[borkjerfkin]

Eh im back and forth on lowell. Some of the catchup looked genuine

Don't ask me to explain the difference, I probably can't.

[borkjerfkin]

Probably need to reeval GL as i get better reads elsewhere

Also read on sbf will probably give me a better indication if i'm "too many townread"ing it up somewhere else

[borkjerfkin]

Why is lowell town

tonal read
all 3 of his posts are dripping towniness
taking the game serious but still relaxed and not at all concerned with how he's viewed by others

Meh. at worst that is a personality tell. I know plenty of unflappable scum and defensive town.

[borkjerfkin]

what I really want is bella to talk about Frog

Me too.

[borkjerfkin]

If he's scum here, he can start with a flawed assumption ("bella jumped to a conclusion early"), then use a valid, well-sourced argument about her play that he honestly believes

I agree that if I have an issue w/ the Bella angle it is definitely on the soundness of the premise and not the validity of the logic because as I said, Bella saying two people aren't scum together is about as softball an assertion as you can make; at this point I'd rather just see Bella & Frogger interact more and read them off that

[borkjerfkin]

btw - using wifom on yourself is... something. "I've played with x and did y and z happened so logically as town I should do p." is reaching.

I do it ever fucking game.

Every game.

It's NAI for me.

VOTE: eddie

but eddie did do one of my biggest scumtells, so yeah

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here -- I think it's entirely reasonable to point out that if you're self aware enough to point out your self-meta you're self-aware enough to manipulate it; I don't see how your self-assessment that you do it every game is germane to his alignment

[borkjerfkin]

{bork,

TTTT

}
{

lowell

, eddie}
{SS, bella}
{fro99er}
{SBF}

I'd like to pick your brain about the bolded

specifically I don't think TTTT has done really anything but throw out some vaguely reasoned townreads and asked a couple questions; was surprised to see him on your top tier
lowell I just don't really have a good handle on; I find him opaque and don't empathize with the reasoning behind most of his reads

[borkjerfkin]

It's a scumtell i use to high success.

I do this as town or scum, but I tend to only get called out on it by scum players when's i'm town.

When i'm scum, I tend not to get called out on it.

It's not a perfect tell, but it has a high success rate.

Can you give me 1 or 2 examples just to establish some context for your experience?

[borkjerfkin]

I think I see where you're coming from GL, even if I think SS is townier than most people in the game, I was the only one who really professed that at that point in the game.

Usually at this point in D1 I kind of see battle lines being drawn and that isn't happening this game, possibly meaning that the majority of the conversation is coming from town.

I don't really know why I think that, but the cadence of this game does seem unusual

[borkjerfkin]

Really liked Bella's catchup
Also strikes me as absolutely nothing like frogger described her town meta, so, uh, paging Frogger

I modded a newbie w/ Bella in it around a year and a half ago (town) and she seemed pretty darn assertive there (butting heads with Thor of all people); I don't think someone would become more timid over time as town.

[borkjerfkin]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=63145

damn i nailed how long ago it was

[borkjerfkin]

Don't really want to lynch any of (SS, Bella, Eddie (who I have been warming up to in the last few pages), GL) atm

[borkjerfkin]

question of the day is does scum-lowell forget to even mention buddy scum-sbf in catchup post 114

I am thinking probably not and that they're not scum together

[borkjerfkin]

If I were scum at the time of TTTT's 150 I'd probably oddball TR someone like Fro99er or Eddie (assuming that they're town) instead.

Actually wait, if you're calling this an 'oddball' TR that ostensibly scum would do why is SS [that you have described as an unconventional townread] any different

[borkjerfkin]

I mean you just saw how I did it with EccentricLemon in our Newbie Game, I recognized people were going to scumread her/push on her so I decided to townread her and it kept her alive to endgame.

Ok yeah you're literally giving an example of you doing the thing as scum that you're townreading TTTT (at your highest tier) for doing

?

[borkjerfkin]

GL is off my do-not-lynch list

[borkjerfkin]

I think scum-GL would realize that town-you would be very hard to lynch right now; not that I think that makes him scum in and of itself.

[borkjerfkin]

lemme get kids to bed

[borkjerfkin]

I think ever since his response to frogger's pressure 183 i've kinda liked his attitude (190 in particular looked town), 212 looks like he's thinking critically about GL's points and evaluating them against his own actual preconceptions and reads and meh this is starting to sound confbiasy to myself

I think I expected to find more concrete things than I did but gun to my head I don't want to lynch him

[borkjerfkin]

i'm also more :S about

is this a "i'm miffed about it" or "i think frogger is scummy for it"

[borkjerfkin]

I think i'm hitting my D1 "all my off the cuff reads are wearing off and i don't know what the fuck i'm doing"

I think GL's point on Lowell (reversing his read on me w/o any external pressure implying town motivation) might have merit but is tempered by the fact that the entire game is townreading me

[borkjerfkin]

so when it's someone who hasn't really attracted any attention or scumreads whatsoever, you don't really get the benefit of b, so I don't see why scum!TTTT would have done it with hypothetical town!SS there. I was trying to point to hypothetical town!Eddie instead as an example of where the b) scenario seems plausible

this is what i was missing

ok

[borkjerfkin]

What was town about 190?

First paragraph sounds like he's testing a hypothesis, suggesting to me that he's trying to interact w/ sbf to sort them but doesn't want to ruin it by tipping his hand

[borkjerfkin]

i swear to fucking god i was just logging in to post a derivative of that question when you made it

again

lol.

@SBF: more specifically, what changed between 200 and now, considering I think Eddie's trajectory on you has not changed one iota since then and you don't seem to be townreading him for any other reason

[borkjerfkin]

Our reads are close which makes me feel a bit better, but

I'm still relying on the meta that I know of you and I'm just not there yet B.

Underlined is how I generally post as town to a friend when I am trying to be, I guess both accommodating and intellectually honest with myself at the same time. As scum I'd probably redirect or just not make this statement.

[borkjerfkin]

Bork when we sync up completely we'll become a single unlynchable, unkillable super town.

unfortunately I haven't gotten the un-makesbaddecisionsatLYLO part down yet

[borkjerfkin]

I want to like Bellaphant for her reaction to the clumsy exchange between bork and GL, and her content has seemed fine overall to me, but Frog's case on her makes me tilt my head.

What part of frog's angle on bella are you empathizing with? It is by his own admission based almost entirely on personal experience (which shouldn't cause someone who lacks that experience to immediately endorse) and I think by his own tone in that post I linked just above he's not even that enchanted with it

[borkjerfkin]

viewtopic.php?p=7299362#p7299362 (BBT called me out for self-meta/WIFOM...BBT was scum)
viewtopic.php?p=7185807#p7185807 (Aero calls me out for self-meta...Aero was scum)
viewtopic.php?p=7233708#p7233708 (Sakura calls me out for self-meta...Sakura was scum)
viewtopic.php?p=7387205#p7387205 (Prozac calls out self-meta...Prozac was scum)
viewtopic.php?p=7405616#p7405616 (Titus calls me out for self-meta...Titus was scum)
viewtopic.php?p=7338212#p7338212 (Fire calls me out for self-meta...Fire was scum)

before i forget this was a fucking impressive number of examples

[borkjerfkin]

i think i'd probably be ok with saying frogger is on my no-lynch list today for a number of reasons, probably the most salient of which is:

Maybe i'm just talking myself out of my read because I misread his 212 initially, but I could see "I typically see scum being the ones to call someone town out of seemingly nothing." coming from either alignment, especially because it's just stating a fact, which is something either alignment could state.

I think that was a legitimate misread on his part and I believe it has rattled his confidence in the read and I don't feel like that was precipitated by strategically trying to abort the wagon, as if frogger is under pressure right now it isn't because he was on eddie.

[borkjerfkin]

well, contrary to what i said the other day, battle lines kind of have been drawn now and there are some really polarizing opinions now that i've kinda got everyone's reads, mostly involving combos of (eddie, frogger, GL, lowell, tttt), all of whom i've seen called both obvtown and scum (i'd lynch either of the latter two atm and I am back and forth on GL), and i think a lot of the reason for the deadlock here is people underexplaining themselves

if i'm anywhere it's
{SS, Bella}
{Frogger, Eddie}
{GL (mostly i don't like his reads), SBF (i didn't

hate

the catchup but I think the points I raised need clarification)}
{Lowell, TTTT} neither have really done anything that hits my towndar in any profound way

I don't feel great about having so many tiers but for better or worse this is how i think i feel

TTTT is the slot I am most feeling "what is everybody else seeing that I am not" and I haven't found an answer I really like (I acknowledge that GL gave one but I think it was way too oblique for me to empathize with) so if anyone wants to do something besides throw him into their super town pile and call it sorted please let me know

[borkjerfkin]

Agree w/ GL 306 and 307

VOTE: lowell

eddie I think there is plenty of meaningful content from SS in what you linked, and I don't see any issue w/ 229; I think that is a responsible way to meta; you need to be able to falsify any behavior that you're trying to compare current behavior to and since SS

wasn't

able to do that, it's null.

[borkjerfkin]

Haha thanks Bork I was about to post just that about 229.

it's you and me
we've got the synergy

[borkjerfkin]

don't have time for a real post today but just checking in to acknowledge that horrendous SBF case on me. I'll destroy it tomorrow

This post pinged me a little for focusing on discrediting SBF['s case] rather than figuring out if it's coming from town or scum

[borkjerfkin]

overall I don't really mind GL's entire ISO, i think GL is the one probably most capable of snowing me in this game if anyone could snow me, but it doesn't read that 'slimy' to me.

[borkjerfkin]

Also can we not unvote without voting someone else please? This game is going nowhere fast anyway.

i liked this post though =/

[borkjerfkin]

i find it hard to be as nihilistic as you about that prospect considering there is a very real possibility you are both town (although in this setup that's not the worst thing in the world but i don't really want to talk extensive theory this game because I don't think it will help town)

regardless i don't think it's necessarily bad for people to come out of the woodwork and take some kind of stand

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't quote everything. but anyways, his iso is just trolling and has extremely minimal content. there is very little content here and a lot of fence sitting: 222 is just shade, more importantly, I hate 229. he says he doesn't see it coming from scum and then proceeds to call it a null read. you literally just said it doesn't come from scum, so why would you not at least town lean him? there's just so little content and so much joking in your iso. I disagree with the notion your play is earnest; you're a competent enough player and I dislike you posting enough to stay "active" while not coming out with any actual content.

I am going to continually fight you on an SS lynch and no one else agrees with you. This is a vanity lynch that you're not gonna get. Do something else.

[borkjerfkin]

I actually like most of Fro99er's page 11 posting.

His SR on this slot lacks any semblance of authenticity and he basically just followed Cane.

Where did I even act like it was an "authentic scumread"? I saw someone lurking and not playing the game and I sheeped a townlean and voted them. I didn't write up a bunch of buzzwords and crap about how I thought you were scum. Like, this is something where you're describing my play but not actually pointing to why that makes me scum.

here, kinda, esp since she's below frogger who you did seem to have a play based scumread on:

I'm about here

{bork, TTTT}
{lowell, eddie}
{SS, bella}
{fro99er}
{SBF}

let's wagon this
VOTE: SweetBlueFlowers

[borkjerfkin]

gl saying "i didnt have any real scumread on sbf, just sheeping eddie" seems mildly disingenuous considering sbf was ranked lower than frogger, someone gl actually did have a scumread on

[borkjerfkin]

That is overall where i am; every once in a while lowell hits a town tone though

[borkjerfkin]

if i flash wagon anyone it's probably gonna be TTTT; SBF doesn't really look overtly scummy to me, just has some points i don't really get

[borkjerfkin]

why can't ss be lynched? what makes them so townie for you?

i've talked about SS a decent amount in my ISO, but if you want to rehash it it's probably gonna have to be later tonight

[borkjerfkin]

what about tttt makes you want to flashwagon him?

Because all he's done is provide some extremely hardline reads for the point in the game that he gave them (never lynch x) and when pressed upon it has provided only the most cursory of reasoning (i liked x post with no commentary) and has shown no indication that he's thinking critically about the game in any fashion; i've also asked for explanations for people townreading him and (excepting GL) have gotten fuckall.

If you've got any further divination on that front i am all ears

but I am also

V/LA

until sunday afternoon or so (will be in milwaukee tomorrow and likely unable to post at all) - might have more time tonight

[borkjerfkin]

I'm still pretty sold on eddie town; he just seems incredibly honest in his process right now (mostly @frogger @bella, who have historically opposed that read)

like 331 he could just take what I gave and been fine with it instead of continuing to prod about it, and i don't think he's doing it to read me (or fake reading me if he's scum) - i think he really does give a fuck about sorting SS

@eddie i'll try to do my best to articulate my SS read soon but it's not my highest priority right now

[borkjerfkin]

How are you so certain in your Space read that you would WK them with Day 1 barely under way? I don't believe that Space is a vanity lynch and I would be perfectly willing to wagon the slot.

It might be barely underway for you, but I've been doing this for almost a week continually now and I like to think I have a good bead on at least a few slots.

I probably misspoke with the vanity lynch thing and retract it -- I see right now probably you, eddie, GL willing to vote them.

anyway the ss read for you and eddie - the first thing that pinged town as I mentioned was the opening post again GL, which i think you all agree with so i'm moving on

I thought the post about me (109, 112) was a fine "this perspective seems off" type of read even if she didn't understand what i was actually saying at the time

The manner in which she is meta-ing frogger is correct and isn't being used to assert a conclusion she wants to push -- if you go looking for meta, and see different behavior from this game or see the same type of behavior in all games, i think a null read is the right conclusion to come to there.

has not blindly bloc'ed with me -- 134 i think shows she's continually questioning whether or not I am, as you say, WKing her (i generally see this used as a pejorative description of scum behavior) or i genuinely think she is town

the sheer number of times either she or I have been about to post the exact same thing as each other leads me to believe we're thinking about the game in similar ways and hitting the same "this makes no sense / feels weird to me" type of notes. I think a scum player would have a hard time accidentally lucking into that.

This is all the things that have occurred to me over the game -- going looking for more I think would be confbiasing. I am willing to hard defend her at this point because between her and Bella (and i'm warming up to both frogger and eddie) I don't see many people who are being that transparent about trying to solve the game, and townhunting is just I think a style that I have to fall back to because it has a high floor -- if i can pick out 3 or 4 true townreads, i have a much smaller chance of fucking up, even if i can't correctly identify scum (and my scumpool is wide enough and volatile enough that i think i have a good chance of guessing wrong D1)

[borkjerfkin]

I called you opportunistic, albeit without using the actual word, and you stated that my description of your play was essentially accurate ("you're describing my play"), if mistaken in the resulting conclusions. You have caught yourself in a trap. Despite finding fault with every part of my case against you and calling me scummy, you are now voting the slot that was previously a townlean over the slot that was previously a scumread. Voting Lowell here is a typical scum tactic, where you try to shed the negative attention on your slot onto another slot. You cannot keep your vote on me because by doing so Town's focus remains on our exchange, which is something scum!GL would never want but which town!GL would have no problem with. Again, you display no sincerity in your desire to sort slots.

actually really like this paragraph; if GL has sucked today it is because his voting patterns are fucking weird (voting SBF at all when he did, and now this)

@ss: either way no I don't think i'd like to lynch SBF today. what did you think?

[borkjerfkin]

UNVOTE: part in anticipation of my V/LA part i'm getting cold feet on lowell

[borkjerfkin]

Please say more. This doesn't come close to cutting it.

I'm not sure what you want from me here -- I think lowell was misrepping GL by calling his interaction w/ SS a 'pocket attempt' and I don't find GL placing his vote on a lurker (you) 'opportunistic' when in the same post he's like "let's wagon SBF"

[borkjerfkin]

I think 307 is a much stronger point than 306, FWIW.

[borkjerfkin]

still think TTTT is being fucking cagey for no good reason

[borkjerfkin]

that is a sentiment you should have just volunteered instead of waiting for me to ask

339 looked like you were agreeing with her and you didn't sound like you had anything else to say about it

[borkjerfkin]

oh.

that was not at all obvious from context.

[borkjerfkin]

but in retrospect, yeah i get that.

i am a white boy who can't dance sometimes

[borkjerfkin]

who the fuck knows

[borkjerfkin]

will catch up after work

[borkjerfkin]

for example, explain how you think he gives a fuck about sorting SS. to me the read is really shallow.

in progress, actually;

Eddie I gave 341 and thusfar you've not even acknowledged it despite specifically asking me for it. Why?

Still not seeing how you're attributing SS' iso as mostly trolling / minimal content; like even the stuff you're quoting has reads and analysis; if you're going after people for minimal content i have no idea why you singled this player out. If you're peeved that it's peppered with jokes every once in a while like 198 who cares?

[borkjerfkin]

@TTTT, it's a little weird how casually you town read me. You trying to pocket me, bro?

fos TTTT

@everyone else, GL is flailing, and I'm still 1v1-ing him. Never seen someone so upset about getting two votes. Imagine how methodical and tedious he'll be if we get him to four or five. Get in here and kill one of us. These are some tepid-ass wagons right now.

Timing is weird as hell on this considering TTTT has been doing this to you since 150

[borkjerfkin]

Not sure this has to be a 1v1 but I kinda think this might actually be towny from Lowell. Scum typically don't show this bravado around a 1v1 unless it's with their scumbuddy for scum theater.

I'm very much in this exact same conundrum-esque mindset; i think he's very good at hitting these tonal notes but like otherwise i haven't liked really much of anything from him regarding actually interacting with or giving reads on people and that's likely the best i'm going to do today unless something weird as shit happens

VOTE: lowell

[borkjerfkin]

I'm intentionally not commenting on it for now.

i'm not super convinced that's pro-town at this point in the day

[borkjerfkin]

i initially thought this would be a PoE oriented game for me and that is just turning out not to happen

[borkjerfkin]

I was hoping scum would push me for the naked vote.
The play was consistent with my prior play in that it was unexplained and came out of nowhere
But it's the kinda superficial thing scum like to latch onto

i am curious as to how hypothetical town-you expects town to interact with you this game

[borkjerfkin]

like you are making yourself (imo) fairly unsortable, which is basically forcing me to throw my reads around you and drop you in the slot where you fit

that's not how everyone hunts; say someone's just got you placed at null; how are you discerning opportunistic scum from concerned town

also consistent with prior play has no bearing on your alignment so i don't see why that's even relevant or a reason to accept it as being ok

[borkjerfkin]

@TTTT, sorry.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't have time to give a proper response to SBF yet but the thing I hate about both their substantiated push/posts on me is that it seems like they're both built on axiomatically assuming that I'm scum first, then prescribing scum motive to everything I do, and then many underhanded attempts to dictate/control my behavior and frame me in a box where anything I do is scummy.

this is my problem w/ 1v1s / long cases in general in that the longer they go on the greater the perceptions of the people arguing become skewed from the rest of the game

i find it pretty safe to assume you two are probably not S-S, but other than that i'm kinda focusing elsewhere (although i'm trying to read every word)

[borkjerfkin]

That's kind of a weird angle imo

[borkjerfkin]

he could squint and see null = "he could understand someone having a null read on that person with the iso that had been presented"

coming out strong doesn't mean can't allow for others null reading a thing

[borkjerfkin]

does that color your read at all?

[borkjerfkin]

@eddie: I understand your sobolev read even if I think we need to work through that a bit more; why is frogger scum?

Everything else I don't take any major issues with, even your null-lowell.

[borkjerfkin]

I'm locking bork as town so if he's scum he should keep me around for an easy lylo win.

@frogger; seriously every time i read something from eddie he sneaks something like this in and, yes, i'm making gut judgments here because i think it's just giving me the most fruit here, but i think this is just a weird mindset for scum to have. if he's playing me he's playing me but as said i don't think he is

[borkjerfkin]

No really. 285 is all about how TTTT is horrible but there's no vote
until after bork's 297
then Bella votes me in 299
realizes it was scummy af
and so tacks on 300

i'm somewhat receptive to this

[borkjerfkin]

it just didn't develop.

maybe it didn't develop because that's not what's actually happening

[borkjerfkin]

3 examples of what? reaching out to her? you're saying 'this has the potential to become buddying' (which in itself might not be scummy) with no buddying

town call themselves town all the time; i had never seen the LAMIST acronym before this game and if i ever see it again it'll be too soon; its a confbiasy term designed to make your argument sound better than it is (not saying you're scum for using it; it just doesn't lead toward any revelations)

[borkjerfkin]

wondering if i legit totally mcfucked the bella read early game because TTTT's recent post is a good post

[borkjerfkin]

it could be called a mild form of buddying but i think a townread on bella has to preclude it and on a level it's just trying to get your scumreads lynched

like if he'd said it to me would it be buddying?

[borkjerfkin]

for two people who know each other well, between frog and bella i see a lot more evidence of the former trying to read the latter than the reverse

[borkjerfkin]

I have work at 5 am I really need to sleep but my brain is all juicy >_>

447? i did read it and i'm rereading it.

Don't agree with your activity point at all.

I think he's interacted well with most people, I am ok with putting extra effort on Bella esp if he hasn't figured her out yet.

I think a lot of the other stuff is gut; there is nothing strictly wrong with that but I can't really corroborate it with you and it's going against my intuition that he is one of the few people attempting to solve the game.

I don't want to really shut the argument down because there is a lot of good stuff able to be taken away from this hopefully by more than just me

[borkjerfkin]

Everyone should be sheeping me on eddie

still don't agree and I'm not sure what to do about it because I'm not sure it's easily articulated

[borkjerfkin]

and again, remember that I already said it's not a super strong scum read.

i know.

[borkjerfkin]

Everyone should be sheeping me on eddie

still don't agree and I'm not sure what to do about it because I'm not sure it's easily articulated

What don't you agree with.

that he's doing anything but confbiasing you

[borkjerfkin]

because I think he's town and frustrated and is causing him to lose his cool and communicate badly and i've townread him outside this interaction and if there's anything that you've said i disagree with it's the stuff that says "i don't think you really i'm scum". Because I think he does believe that at least to the degree he has professed

[borkjerfkin]

"i don't think you really

believe

i'm scum"

ebwop

[borkjerfkin]

i think that is just a part of what being intellectually honest is

what do you think about TTTT's post on Bella?

[borkjerfkin]

town: {bork, eddie, Fro99er, TTTT}
meh: {SS, SBF, Bella}
scum: {Lowell}

probably very close to where i am (still think I like SS more than you do, TTTT is definitely better than before but not ready to hard town him and none of my scumreads are confident ones)

I liked bella early game (specifically her reasoning behind her initial thing between GL/me) although rereading 215 something that pings me is

seee, tonally I liked Lowell for town, but his post with his vote for me in it didn't look like it should end with a vote for me. but

VOTE: bella

Kara! Good to see you again. Sorry you flipped red this time.

is super tonally weird - kara is a reference to a recent survivor game, and i'd expect it to be an rvs reference, but then 'i flipped red'. ugh.

feels not genuine. ["I liked generally the tone of his posts. What I didn't like is this particular post where I didn't like his tone, the thing I just said I liked"] and it just reads instead to me like it's a combination of two dissonant parrots (the former of TTTT's 158 and the latter of Frogger's 121) instead of an organic read

part about GL in 285 seems like it's objecting for no really good reason other than so she had something to talk to frogger about; the fact that she's asking about it seems like she takes issue with it but the read matches his (even with the 'looks contrived' comment you seem to be coming town on a "GL is most likely town" conclusion) whereas if she wanted meaningful conversation both on reads on others and on frogger himself i'd expect her to ask about TTTT (a read that they differ on) or lowell (one that she's wishy washy on and he's less so)

p-edit @lowell vote: was actually a little worried about lowell-bella due to early game hard pressure making way for only soft grumblings. this makes me feel a little better

let's see what goes interactionwise
VOTE: bella

[borkjerfkin]

Sorry for the absence all. Will read what I missed and post thoughts.

I want to be on the record as thinking Lowell's last post is terrible though.

not really sure if I agree; enough people were digging their heels in against the GL wagon

[borkjerfkin]

i'm not reading that as a reversal, and i don't want to speak for lowell but it doesn't sound to me like he's stopped scumreading GL

[borkjerfkin]

plz tell me every thought you've ever had about Bella in this game

giggle

[borkjerfkin]

Seems like he's trying to cash out on the 1v1 and move on.

that is entirely possible and i think that's a plausible reason for scum to eject here, i just think it shouldn't be discounted that the wagon is obviously not going anywhere and that's potential reasoning for town to eject here;

[borkjerfkin]

I haven't thought "this seems off, let me review bella"

overall i don't think she's been too overtly offensive either; i just don't really think she's trying to find scum and there are some more-than-skin-deep inconsistencies that aren't temporal in nature

[borkjerfkin]

in my notes:

who's the tryhard now lowell i ain't never kept no notes

[borkjerfkin]

my wife backed into the garage door as it was opening last night so i'm stuck at home dealing w/ that / kids for the moment

[borkjerfkin]

I'm a little skeeved that my wagon flipped so quickly to Bella

for me (I feel I was a fairly pivotal momentum switch as I believe I was the third vote) I am really on here because

1) she looked weird on a reread that I did after TTTT posted on her
2) I don't have any compelling reason to think she's town other than she gave a reasonable opinion about you early
3) was hoping she'd beetlejuice soon because of the pressure
4) lowell every once in a while hits a town note

[borkjerfkin]

There is at least 1 scum in {bork, Space}.

curious as to why you looped me into this considering the rest of your post says nothing about me

[borkjerfkin]

@Eddie - down for an SBF lynch? If you'd like I can go more through her ISO and explain the scumread in depth but you seem to have a TR on her so I'm unsure if you'd want to join in.

i think you should as long as you can be concise about it because 1) I am not seeing it and 2) I don't want that to be the only thing she does next time shows up since she's such an infrequent poster; I expect both alignments to attempt to rebutt you

[borkjerfkin]

@Fro99er consider staying in the game until Bella is prodded? You're a big part of the reason I inned to this game, I'd be bummed to see you go.

Fine I'll stay in

I don't even know who you are so I dunno why you'd in because of me

Damn. Sick power play.

Didn't like this and don't feel like frogger's "I'm outtie" was any attempt to get cred

[borkjerfkin]

i am more sure than ever that Frogger is town (and no eddie i don't want to talk about it today) my GL townread is also up

[borkjerfkin]

this game is frustrating i think i'm getting somewhat close to having my reads fucking backward from where they were early game

[borkjerfkin]

Also, I'm sorry but I find posts like 664 rather disrespectful, calling someone's RL motivation into question is not something that should take place in a game. RL is NAI.

the hell? I'm remarking on lowell's doing that, not doing it myself

[borkjerfkin]

Hard defending TRs on Day 1 is naive behavior at best, because Day 1 TRs will never be strong enough to warrant such strength of read unless you are exceptionally attuned to a player's meta.

I'll defend people I think are town at the time I think they are town; it helps to have a discourse so that I can both be transparent and (hopefully) arrive at something that resembles the truth.

Naive is writing someone off and never wavering on it no matter what happens.

[borkjerfkin]

considering Lowell is scumreading Frogger, it could be something that he's trying to say contributes to the scumread or sarcasm as Lowell says; I don't really have any way of knowing which

[borkjerfkin]

considering Lowell is scumreading Frogger, it could be something that he's trying to say contributes to the scumread or sarcasm as

eddie

says; I don't really have any way of knowing which

ebwop

[borkjerfkin]

think SBF is stlll probably town, but if SS is scum then she's even more likely town as any reason to set up this push on me goes away

[borkjerfkin]

whereas if SS flips town this becomes an excuse to push me because I defended her.
How sure did I ever really sound about SS town? Do I look like I'm writing her off? if so, where?

like the entire game has defended me all game; are they scum?

i do think it's weird that you focus on this particular interaction and not say, people who have gone and said "never lynch X"

[borkjerfkin]

I read it as sarcasm / joking, it seems like a really weird angle to push

it's possible and I hadn't considered that, fair enough

[borkjerfkin]

whereas if SS flips town this becomes an excuse to push me because I defended her.
How sure did I ever really sound about SS town? Do I look like I'm writing her off? if so, where?

like the entire game has defended me all game; are they scum?

i do think it's weird that you focus on this particular interaction and not say, people who have gone and said "never lynch X"

the more i think, this is off-putting but not offputting by that much for reasons that it would probably be antitown to explain.

[borkjerfkin]

I don't think scum SBF pushes me here there is just very little value in it other than to elicit reactions like this from me like she can't possibly have known she was going to get

[borkjerfkin]

I guess this isn't really a push, but still

also the timing is wrong, this is something you say as scum when a town-SS lynch looks a lot more likely than it currently looks

[borkjerfkin]

if someone is seeing town-bella notes that i am missing now is the time to really like hash this out because inertia is favoring that lynch right now even w/ SBF's hopoff

there is no claim to be had so it's not like no one's gonna deadine hammer

rereading SS/SBF probably tonight/tomorrow but i wouldn't be surprised if I end up in a wishy-washy throw up my hands state as seems to be par for this game (which I don't think is a failing on anyone's part but mine; I don't think people are trying hard to be opaque by and large I'm just not hitting any huge scum notes on anyone and that makes me dive back into reads i'd previously shelved)

[borkjerfkin]

are p-edits just not happening anymore? like half the time i don't get the interrupt

[borkjerfkin]

top one -- i didn't read as "liked and then didn't", considering that the post she refers to is his second post, which means it's pretty likely it's not the last thing she read

bottom one -- really just a summary of the fact that I think she's giving conflicting thoughts in the same post like what appears to be contradictory parroting and the fact that she's not asking you about things that you two disagree on but instead about things that you pretty much agree on which contextually makes no sense; it wasn't meant to be a new point

[borkjerfkin]

also don't think bella makes a good SS partner for what that's worth; bella referred to SS as obvtown so early in the game

[borkjerfkin]

I don't feel great about any lynch atm or I'd not be here

also I like SBF's point about SS read progression on GL that seems like a really unintuitive reason to townread someone

[borkjerfkin]

(246)

[borkjerfkin]

blah i should probably go look at that newbie they played together

fuck meta though i'd probably have won Heroes of the Storm upick if not for meta

[borkjerfkin]

if I were the Metaing sort I would point out that GL looks very different here than in that game

[borkjerfkin]

blah i am legit wondering if i whiffed it on SS; I don't see the angle on GL

[borkjerfkin]

I don't, I think he's town, just trying to figure out where you're coming from right then and there; also trying to find where he really got up in your grill in the newbie game

[borkjerfkin]

eh i guess there is a lot of soft pressure on you from him that game, he just never voted you

fucking hell i dunno

[borkjerfkin]

I don't know. I want to see SBF's response to our questions about her Eddie read before making a full judgement, but I have a moderate scumread on her and think that lynch would do the least damage to town.

how did this moderate scumread come to be?

p-edit: preview functionality is definitely mcfucked right now

[borkjerfkin]

i love being meta'ed it's probably one of the reasons i am never mislynched on this site

yes i realize someday that will catch up with me

[borkjerfkin]

It was based on her comments on Eddie. I'm going more into these tomorrow but I found them shifty.

time is of like the super essence

[borkjerfkin]

we actually did both ask SBF that already; did she ever answer?

[borkjerfkin]

Cane's opening was, as I see it, a reaction test. Scum love easy targets, and giving one to them is a very effective way to hunt.

I guess was the answer given, which really doesn't answer your question

[borkjerfkin]

If Space were to flip Town, I would read your defense of Space as scum WKing a scummy Town slot with the hope of reaping Town cred on a flip. Hard defending TRs on Day 1 is naive behavior at best, because Day 1 TRs will never be strong enough to warrant such strength of read unless you are exceptionally attuned to a player's meta. You have already retracted your defense of the slot, but it did occur and it pings me. I have you as a weak townlean for the remainder of your content. Your content is good but I haven't found anything that I don't belive scum!bork couldn't fake.

this is, after reread 2, a really ass reason to scumread (is that even what this is?) me

aside from the special pleading (like just look at TTTT's iso for examples of hard defending reads [SS included, also lowell], or look at Bella hard-towning SS), it kind of ignores (or i guess possibly misses) the fact that I townread SS before anyone in the game scumread SS or the fact that scum-me wouldn't be particularly worried about towncred at really any point in this game thus far but that's a considerably weaker point. I hate attacks that involve WKing accusations because they are both hilariously impossible to discern against town defending someone they think is town and they often lend themselves to lining up lynches

Also would like to see SBF's interpretation of GL's meta in the game that she meta'd SS in just to see what she says

It's way out of left field and just fucking weird to happen now of all times and it's throwing me off because i don't see any obvious scum motivation there or any indication that i'd be an easy mislynch to push on D2 if she gets her SS lynch and SS flips town; why not TTTT or Bella

[borkjerfkin]

I haven't found anything that I don't belive scum!bork couldn't fake.

this strikes me as an incorrect time to say this; if she really thought this then why was I ever town in the first place, don't get any indication in 288 that she thinks this or that i'm a weaker read than the others

not that "x can be faked therefore you're null" is really ever a useful thing to say considering this is a game of inductive reasoning and not deductive; very few things in mafia absolutely

can't

be faked and if this were the way we went around all the time no one would ever figure anything out about anyone

[borkjerfkin]

To clarify, I said that I would read one part of your content as having scum motivation if Space were Town

There is at least 1 scum in {bork, Space}.

if Space were Town

There is at least 1 scum in {bork,

Space

}.

There is at least 1 scum in {bork}.

?

[borkjerfkin]

Go over both Space's newbie games and judge for yourself whether what you are seeing is town!Space.

And if I see something markedly different I should assume what?

[borkjerfkin]

Regarding GL, he is not playing quite the same game in this game as he was in that game, but there are similarities. He is not being powertown. He can be powertown. When he isn't powertown, he is usually scum.

You need to very much elaborate on everything you said in this post, including:

1) why are you ignoring differences in play here when it doesn't fit the conclusion you want
2) what is powertown
3) how does him not being "powertown" make him scum
4) what examples are you using

[borkjerfkin]

@bork - SBF conveniently left out the fact that I have a scum newbie game as well (although I replaced in d2 and was lynched soon after)

she did say games, plural, but i'd have assumed the other one was a town game too without going to look

I really don't like this, what I refer to as armchair meta (and town and scum both do it) where someone just looks and decides that they look different than another game of the alignment opposite of what they want the person to be and decide that that's the basis for their read. It is so so so so error prone that I don't do it. There are many, many reasons why someone's playstyle might change from game to game.

Similarities are a better argument, but I think this too is subject to confbias if not done very, very carefully. I was not careful last game and it might have cost us the game (gave a bad read on pieguy at the end of d2 and died that night and town never questioned that slot again)

[borkjerfkin]

bork why did you cut this part of it?

I could have not cut it and it would neither have helped nor hurt my point -- I am showing SBF is not saying what i did quote (thus implying that she is also not saying what I didn't quote and what you quoted)

also your post there is predicated on SS being town. But SBF clearly says "IF" (and even says it's not scum end of story)

Well yeah, my point in 718 is only in play if SS is town; I am saying SBF is saying I am scum if SS is town, and SBF is backing off from that point and claiming no she didn't say that in 720

[borkjerfkin]

Bork we're gonna disagree here. I heavily use meta. Heavily. That's my playstyle. I think there are certain things that can't be faked by most people (there are a few I cannot get a meta read on, so I don't try to).

I mean I know people do it and I know they will continue to. I think playstyle differences in a vacuum say almost nothing.

[borkjerfkin]

I said that I would read one part of your content as having scum motivation if Space were Town

, not that

I would consider you to be scum end of story put a noose on it

I think red is the antithesis of blue, I was pointing out that she wasn't actually saying blue in 658, implying that she WAS saying red. I didn't feel the need to post the latter part of that because I think 658 shows that she is saying 1 scum in {me, SS} thereby meaning an SS townflip WOULD make me scum and that she's backing off by just saying "well no it just could potentially be scummy" later

[borkjerfkin]

basically how does she get from

There is at least 1 scum in {bork, Space}.

to

I said that I would read one part of your content as having scum motivation if Space were Town

because those are two very different assertions

[borkjerfkin]

obviously if SS is scum then the latter quote becomes irrelevant

[borkjerfkin]

and yeah there is incongruity in SBF saying "I think Bella is a ML" and Bella being the 3rd lowest person on her readlist

[borkjerfkin]

unless she's super sure of all her townreads like she just lambasted me for being sure enough to defend 1 of

[borkjerfkin]

she's on MST so her assignment is due in 45 min and I think she finished early and went to bed; i don't think it's gonna happen before tomm

[borkjerfkin]

here is (what little there is of it) SS's scum game (copy paste)

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=69804&user_select[]=28862

presented without commentary

[borkjerfkin]

Bork, I actually go to school in Chicago not Denver so it was due ~15 min ago. I just finished getting ready for bed but I can stay up a bit and make the post. I realize that time is definitely a factor here.

oh, my bad. howdy neighbor

[borkjerfkin]

I did not say that him not being powertown = him being scum

When he isn't powertown, he is usually scum.

come the fuck on

[borkjerfkin]

I am currently reading your defense of Space as Town naivety, because I do not know the alignment of Space. If the alignment of Space were known to me as Town, then I would reconsider reading your defense of Space as scum WK.

Also this is illogical; if I am town I have no idea what SS is and therefore why would you devalue the town defending town possibility and not the town defending scum one

[borkjerfkin]

This is how a read evolves: you add pieces of information together and they gradually form a full picture. One piece of that in my read on your slot is your interactions with Space. Once the variable {Space} is defined, it affects my read on your slot. I am currently reading your defense of Space as Town naivety, because I do not know the alignment of Space. If the alignment of Space were known to me as Town, then I would reconsider reading your defense of Space as scum WK. Combined with the other pieces of information that I have on your slot, this would probably result in a scumlean. Given that if Space were Town GL would by my only SR and every other slot would be null or above, I would consider that scum was in {bork, GL}. Therefore, operating according to knowledge I have right now, I believe there is at least 1 scum in {bork, Space}. Does that make sense?

I can kind of squint and see this, even if it relies on a pretty crap premise (scum-me is considerably more likely to defend town-SS than town-me is because

who the fuck knows

)

[borkjerfkin]

Like you are seriously beginning to make me think you are scum with how heavily you are dumbtelling

Fuck you? I reserve the right to ask about things i don't understand or seem off to me. If you don't want to deal with that then one of us has a problem and it isnt me.

TTTT and bella have hard defended SS as i have previously stated. Why aren't yoy giving them shit about it?

[borkjerfkin]

Because town!bork knows that his reads have a very high chance of being inaccurate part-way through Day 1 and doesn't hinder other slots from scumhunting (or giving the appearance of it).

Ugh. Lets back up because i know you're probably not trying to say this, but i feel that you're saying that only scum would defend a townread Because town might be wrong in doing so.

If you're not saying that, then please try to explain what you are trying to say and again why you are viewing my calling ss town differently than anyone else calling anyone (including ss) town

[borkjerfkin]

Like i feel like im trying to be patient but i am not getting your angle and your recourse is to call me obtuse and i very much dont appreciate it

[borkjerfkin]

I didn't believe that you were genuinely confused enough to need explanations about basic mafia theory

Is demeaning. Stop. I'm not a goddamn moron, I'm playing the game differently than you think I should.

(739 is coincidentally also a misrep given that meta is a fraction of my case on Space, but this is typical of the selective reading you've been doing with all my recent posts.)

Was trying to talk in general there and I wasn't calling you scummy, I just don't think it's effective.

Giving a read =! defending. Defending =! hard defending.

Like is this the disconnect? Do you believe it is more town to say "I think x is town but I'm going to let you do what you want" vs "I think x is town and here is why I think you're wrong" because the latter is how I am generally going to play every time; it gives me the opportunity to get a read on the person who has the opposing read and gives them the opportunity to convince me I'm wrong.

I'd also like to add that in pretty much every case you mentioned I am responding to someone asking me about SS. I am curious as to how you expected me to react to that if not how I did.

This is the only thing in this post I really want a response to.

But even if it was all unforced defense, I don't see an issue with providing a defense of a player i

think

is town that is both 1) demonstrable that I really think what I think and 2) is commensurate with the level of the read.

Attacking my cases on Space and GL in the exaggerated and narrow way you have as been a complete distraction.

I don't think this conversation has been a distraction. I'm still trying to figure you out and this is helping me.

[borkjerfkin]

Asking me to expand on what I'm saying is fine. Nitpicking on irrelevant details of my arguments and ignoring their actual substance is not fine.

I don't think this should need stating, but obviously I feel I'm doing the former and not the latter.

[borkjerfkin]

Gun to my head SBF is town.

[borkjerfkin]

and ever since I made it you have been attacking me over inconsequential aspects of my arguments, which I've had to explain in such minute detail that my push on Space and GL has been lost in the process.

pretty much for this sentiment which I think is best expressed here; town has much more a reason to feel frustrated here than scum does and it reads genuine to me; scum-sbf doesn't really need a GL/SS lynch to succeed on D1; they could easily fall back on the at least one of (Bella/Lowell) that isn't scum as both have had viable wagons today

[borkjerfkin]

Bella or lowell are still probably my best shots at a scum lynch

[borkjerfkin]

did you not say recently that lowell was off the table for you?