Mini 1918: Paint Mafia Threequel! Game Over!

[Bomberman]

Vote: TwoFace

Stuff this nerd into a locker

[Bomberman]

I think if we keep pressuring TwoFace he will turn Red

I mean this both figuratively and literally

[Bomberman]

@Gamma Emerald

Yes

Here is my bulletproof and undeniable proof, do not read below if you wish to avoid SPOILERS

Spoiler: proof

lmao

[Bomberman]

Usually talking about mechanics/theory into ad naseam is fruitless and not very hard for either alignment

Plus I think varsoon's hard to read.

Why are you invalidating everything you said by not committing to your vote fully

[Bomberman]

I am taking everyone who suggests flipping something based on 'confirmation of alignment' with a furrowed eyebrow

[Bomberman]

I am taking everyone who suggests flipping something based on 'confirmation of alignment' with a furrowed eyebrow

Only works on D1

I don't like throwing out traditional logic even if the setup is not especially traditional itself

[Bomberman]

How does that invalidate that I thought he could be a town leader and that I though he'd be a good color flip? The vote was never based on scumminess.

We disagree on principle then, there was talk about using the reveal as a cop but that's pretty pointless and likely not what it's for imo

I had an odd thought about jjh playing yes-man where he parroted your mindset about Varsoon, how do u feel about that

[Bomberman]

Basically, what fro99er said.
I think enough of us see eye to eye here.

I'm curious what people think of Two-Face essentially shrugging off being the leading wagon for awhile.

I rly dislike it, mostly because it is reminiscent of trying to do busywork

His recent posts have given me nothing, moreover he seems to trying to get involved in theory/postulating for no reason other than it being a trending topic

[Bomberman]

I'm also not going to vote JJ until I get a read on him. That's going to be an evolving read for a bit. He would know why.

pedit: hi

I'll townread you even more if you vote him, you can boast to everyone in the scumchat about how 'this dumb fucker townread me i am completely owning him right now haha' and I would get more pressure applied to the people I think are bad

Win-win scenario no?

[Bomberman]

Bomberman do you usually have so many small suspicions early on?

I think too many people fall into the mindset about 'developing their reads' further and then miss out on avenues of thought merely because they are waiting for something to happen

If there's something I dislike, I will call it out if I feel it's something that needs to be

You made me type more than two sentences and completely ruined my gimmick I can't fucking believe this

[Bomberman]

I wanna be clear more votes plz

[Bomberman]

THank u, thank u

[Bomberman]

I have an undesirable need to be relevant at every facet of the game therefore I make boisterous statements that get me noticed

[Bomberman]

I hope you will love me at post 45 and reconsider our relationship

[Bomberman]

Bomberman wtf! Why are you not voting yourself!?

I don't want a blowhard telling me that me self-voting is anti-town despite the circumstances, but you can still push me if u want

[Bomberman]

I know reading that reading tone in a Mafia game is kinda tough but I was just having a funny there

Making jokes about what I presumed to be pretty ridiculous

[Bomberman]

Oh my god that vote is literally the worst thing that happened this game, you try and have conviction towards a Varsoon flip and then never do anything about why you have it, then you presumably flip your vote because I made some jokes in light of the situation we're in

But yeah it's me who should be shaking my boots, you really brung out the demons I'm gonna start posting for real are u ready I'm literally typing as much as possible to tel you 'that vote sucked'

[Bomberman]

Nope, I voted you because your conviction was shitty, your reaction was shittier, and your explanation of the reaction was extremely shitty.

And then your reaction to my vote was exactly what I was looking for to keep my vote on you.

Yeah well you smell dude

[Bomberman]

I know reading that reading tone in a Mafia game is kinda tough but I was just having a funny there

Making jokes about what I presumed to be pretty ridiculous

...for the sake of clarity, what did you presume to be ridiculous?

Havo's argument for one, which wasn't really much of an argument in the first place

I then decided to take the piss, please tell me that someone of your stature realizes that whole confrontation was me being exceedingly mocking and sarcastic

[Bomberman]

Bomberman exploded

It's in the name

[Bomberman]

I really do need you to contest the fact your vote on Varsoon was really bad and you doubling down on me for making jokes is not substantial evidence to my 'scumminess'

What about it is scummy?

[Bomberman]

Bomberman, this is the first phase of the whole game. We don't have a lot of substantial stuff to go off and you acted like me voting you was me accusing you of being the antichrist.

PEdit: Not a threat. I would have wanted you colourflipped because you seemed to me like you were reacting more to me voting Bomberman than to anything else.

You just had an interaction with Frog about how he wasn't seeing mu scuminess, who the hell waffles like you just did

[Bomberman]

Not how I took it, seemed like a loaded question

[Bomberman]

What even point was there to vote me if he's just going to fallback and say 'lol i have nothin it's d1 bro'

I actually have to ask you the question, this is scummy as all hell?

[Bomberman]

I forcibly decided to shade him when I didn't like his Varsoon vote and he still hasn't fully explained why he hopped off it and changed his convictions so quickly

[Bomberman]

I'm feeling really confused about this right now

Frogger gets mad because JJ doesn't vote TwoFace (someone who he thinks is gonna flip Red, based on how he was worded himself)

JJ then flips his vote on me for what could be 5 minutes IRL and votes TwoFace

I take issue with JJ based on him not explaining himself prior, mock him and tell him that his vote sucked because it was made haphazardly with no reasoning

JJ admits this, says the equivalence of 'it's just d1 bro'

Now Frogger thinks I am scum for 'forcibly shading' JJ or something like that

What actually just happened I'm in a spin

[Bomberman]

@Bomberman: So you were mostly giving Havo a hard time for being on you for dumb reasons?

Also, 'someone of [my] stature'?

I do see that you employ a playful tone with the whole breaking from it for joking melodrama, but that really doesn't do much for the gamestate, homie.

Hope my recent tone is more indicative that I am being serious

[Bomberman]

What even point was there to vote me if he's just going to fallback and say 'lol i have nothin it's d1 bro'

He never said that

I paraphrased my interpretation, hence not "quoted"

[Bomberman]

Not the post I'm talking about? #266 where he says "we don't have a lot of substantial stuff to go off of"

[Bomberman]

No, Bomberman. I'm saying you shouldn't take day 1 votes as "This person is scum and I have loads of evidence". I like throwing my vote around a lot for reactions and your reactions to people voting you or being suspicious of you have been terrible.

What purpose is there to vote someone if you're just going to take it back, what exactly were you trying to feel out?

I've been asking you to elaborate on things but you've haven't really been doing so

right, but now he's given other reasons, so why do you keep harping on "it's D1 bro"

If you think that is the ONLY thing I have harped on him for maybe I'm not being clear enough

[Bomberman]

Okay so you don't like my reaction, I understood it the 3rd time you said it

Now give me something in return and actually answer the things I am asking of you instead of creating this false dichotomy where I failed your test therefore you don't owe me shit because that's gonna make me pretty heated

[Bomberman]

What do you think I still haven't answered, Bomberman?

Because if it's about the Varsoon vote then that's still me throwing my vote around.

That don't make sense, I think fro99er called you out on this but then he decided to attack me for some reason? It was like, me and fro99er were on the same page but then he switched onto me for attacking you on something I disliked also

Do you see why I'm confused

[Bomberman]

Hey varsoon you should tell me what you think of this discourse going on right now regardless of TwoFace

[Bomberman]

You talk to me like you scumread me yet you have your vote on TwoFace

Are you just complying to someone else's needs or what

[Bomberman]

Well, because it shows a lack of conviction which is the freaking problem I am having with this slot right now

I have said this so many times, might dip once Varsoon answers me

[Bomberman]

Hey varsoon you should tell me what you think of this discourse going on right now regardless of TwoFace

I don't think anyone needs to defend their play here;
JJ swung off the wagon to vote you, Fro99er rightfully called it out, JJ got back onto the TwoFace wagon where they should be.
I think JJ's play isn't as damning as anyone's called it out to be, and it seems that Fro99er and JJ have worked out some understanding of each other's positions in regards to both wagons.

All in all, it makes me more confident in my read on Fro99er and it provides for worthwhile interaction with JJ that'll provide the associative tells/information that I've been talking about (stuff that's useful moving forward post-flip).

Thanks

I'm feeling pretty grody about what just happened regardless, but agree that we should just be voting TwoFace

[Bomberman]

Fro99er you posed a question to me about playing with JJ

How is he playing right now in terms of his meta, you two seem acquainted

[Bomberman]

I am reading him as someone who makes kneejerk reactions and changes his ideals to see fit whatever push he is making, sometimes in the form of blind aggression

I don't really like this but perhaps you know him better than me

[Bomberman]

Fro99er seems like a more sensible middleman so I'm going to opt to not do that for now

[Bomberman]

Vote: TwoFace

Pile 'em on lads

[Bomberman]

I might've hammered but that's alright I hope

[Bomberman]

@Mod, please draw something funny for this happenstance of me accidentally quickhammering

[Bomberman]

I think that it's implausible that everyone voting TwoFace yesterday is town

[Bomberman]

Scum would have to be pretty stupid and neglectful to ignore the fact, therefore I am not sure why the focus is with people who did not vote TwoFace

[Bomberman]

TwoFace [7] - Fro99er, Apricity, Havo, jjh927, Infinity 324, Varsoon, Aristophanes

@Bomber

so who's the scum on the wagon?

pedit: who's saying we have to focus off the wagon?

I have to think about it, I am not sure why you changed your mindset towards jjh based on NAR

[Bomberman]

Occam's razor insists that the kill was mostly based on conjecture that usually falls into 'we can't push this player anymore he is town/or a threat'

You could say that if you died, it would make JJ look worse no?

[Bomberman]

@Bomber, who was suggesting we look off the wagon?

Nobody, I merely vocalized a trend that I saw offering a different perspective that I feel shouldn't be neglected

[Bomberman]

Why are u being obtuse fro99er

[Bomberman]

It was rly weird to me how Fro99er wanted to instigate a townbloc immediately after TwoFace flipping Red and I don't feel too charmed by his recent postings

[Bomberman]

Vote: TwoFace

Pile 'em on lads

I might've hammered but that's alright I hope

@Mod, please draw something funny for this happenstance of me accidentally quickhammering

I'd also like to bring this up again because like Ari I also felt it sounded fake. Thoughts?

I got excited the person I scumread flipped Red and wanted to glorify myself in being right, however did not mean to quicklynch and tried to make a funny out of my neglect of checking the votecount

[Bomberman]

It was rly weird to me how Fro99er wanted to instigate a townbloc immediately after TwoFace flipping Red and I don't feel too charmed by his recent postings

I don't feel too charmed by you suddenly shading my top townread (and I'm sure the top townread for several people).

I liked him earlier in the exchange of JJH but things have changed and what I assumed to be just headstrong play has become trying to direct the gameflow in a obnoxious manner

[Bomberman]

An obnoxious manner that I don't feel is warranted, for posterity sake

[Bomberman]

I don't know you personally so everything you say about yourself is pretty pointless, fro99er

I'm trying to understand your angle where you think it's Max, and now you're about Gamma for not reacting in a way you want to

Take a chill, smoke some weed dude. 420 rofl

[Bomberman]

Based on what I read you didn't give much of answer of how he failed the exchange with you, and then you changed your vote to aptil not even two seconds after

But I feel talking to you rn will open up a can of worms

[Bomberman]

Bomber what don't you unserstand abt Frogger voting me there?
And as for my thoughts i will. give them soon. swear to god (is still catching up lmao but i want to play with whats here while i do that)

Pedit dude i missed it how about repeating it for me

It's his sporadic behavior that is setting me off, really

[Bomberman]

Based on what I read you didn't give much of answer of how he failed the exchange with you, and then you changed your vote to aptil not even two seconds after

But I feel talking to you rn will open up a can of worms

I'm voting gamma because his wagon analysis is shit, and doesn't show any effort to actually sort anyone. Just blindly say "scum has to be on the end of the wagon"

Idk I think u should wait to hear his testimony before finding the defendant guilty, unless you're abiding to japanese law where everyone is guilty until proven innocent

[Bomberman]

Nbd because you seem really irritating to work with, and I am not sure why you're being townread

[Bomberman]

Yeah I know, i did what I could and it didnt pan out, oh well.

Pedit he was a townlean at the time that i consider a strong player who, if town, shouldnt be conftown that gets nightkilled immediately

Apricity if thats not what you meant, why did you bring up that frogger was a popular townread at all?

Because to me at least, Frog is someone that several people really townread, and I didn't like that Bomber seemed to be redirecting onto him for the sake of creating confusion. Frankly I'm not sure how to answer you beyond that because it's like asking me why did you use this particular word instead of a synonym or something? I didn't think too much about it and voiced it more as something I just believed to be fact. I probably don't make sense right now but idk how else to explain it.

I think my opinion is more contrarian than anything if you believe several people have townread him, but I think "several" is a pretty overblown statement

[Bomberman]

Did people just ignore the fact that Aptil self-voted himself for a minute to feign that he didn't care about being flipped and then backed out and went onto gamma when he 'didn't like his post'

Where would this town be if they didn't have me to speak out on controversial topics like this one

[Bomberman]

Something about Apricity tonally is setting me off 2, and I am wondering why she got mad at me for not townreading fro99er/my tone post-color flip but did not engage after

[Bomberman]

My headspace is at jjh/Fro99er having one and this interaction between aptil and jjh telling also, so my vote is likely gonna go on one of those three

[Bomberman]

Reading between the lines of interaction is always a doozy for me, but I did look back because I think that's important, but I'm going to break character to talk important stuff

TwoFace had heavy interaction with Fro99er over a substantial bit. I am imagining this is where people believe he is town? The bit I glossed over stems from #185-#204 does seem pretty hard to fake, tonally speaking. I don't know Fro99er's meta but suffice to say that perhaps my grievances boil down to playstyle. I think that if Fro99er is still alive near the end of the game I might throw my skepticism again but for now I doubt he is a choice to be lynched/flipped.

Another interesting outlook is TwoFace's interaction with Infinity, Aptil, and Aristo, each with a bit of varying difference. If you want to make theory about why Infinity got killed, the biggest thing of all was that he likely looked very town based on the interaction with TwoFace, though that originally gave me pause. Can we instantly say that everyone who interacted with TwoFace up until that point is town? Probably not which is why I was/am trying to figure who could've possibly been involved at that time, because all town just managing to circle around scum seems pretty implausible.

Looking at the votecount early on, we have Me, Infinity and Varsoon voting TwoFace at this juncture. I think Gamma said that he believed scum was at the middle/end of the flip which doesn't tell me anything too specific, but I am a bit inclined to agree. Varsoon is still a bit null to me however though I likely am not going to bring anything else up about him, and Infinity has already left us so that's the most I'll talk about those slots.. The way the game develops after that is more interesting to me but I wanted to talk about the early forming of the wagon just to get it out of the way.

I've already tried and give my thoughts about JJ when I interacted about him, and how awkward he was being. I still firmly believe that and I don't know why he voted TwoFace and then voted me for a split second and made it seem like he was merely reaction testing me. Furthermore, I don't know what the hell he is doing right now but I will say after re-reading his thoughts do align even if he makes a passive gesture towards it, merely sheeping fro99er's opinion about me and pursuing other avenues of thought. I guess what sets me off about those two in general if we're speaking strictly on a playstyle level is that they play a very forward-moving type of game where their mindsets and ideals can change whimsically based on even the slightest of tells. Not really a huge fan of that but I'd be pretty fucking impressed if those two were scum together. Gun to my head, feeling SvT but wouldn't be mad if I was wrong and it was TvT.

Now, let's talk about Aptil. I really dislike how he came into the thread and unvoted just to vote me, moreso I dislike his behavior in general. I already talked about in minor detail but I think it's enough to be incriminating, so I won't repeat myself here. I can't recall the exact count in my head but I think at that point TwoFace was at L-2, so if anyone wants to speak up about Aptil's behavior being townie because of him missing an opportunity to get TownPoints for voting TwoFace, now is your chance to do it here. That's not how I feel though and I think out of these three I can see myself aligning with JJ in voting Aptil, based on general tells and what transpired before. I really feel like he was feigning on the whole 'I don't care if I'm voted' with Gamma and I think it's an easy and stupid copout. I'll tell you right now that self-voting yourself isn't good regardless of the circumstance and I never had intention to do it, which is why I was being so sarcastic about it when it was brought up.

Raya's post (#423) at the endisn't too telling but it does allude to what I was talking about earlier and it's the consideration of TwoFace's partners trying to get townpoints/submitting to the inevitable at the backend of his lynch. Nothing much. TwoFace afterwards selfvotes likely to keep the trail off his partners which is an alright move. In short, TwoFace had a huge indicative of certain slots that I feel some should be focused and others shouldn't. I'm not going to try and be so contrarian to throw my vote on Fro99er but I will promptly place and IGMEOU and call it a day. Aptil is definitely someone who sticks out the most in terms of interaction therefore I would like to see his flip to clear things up.

The other slots I have minor suspicion about, but this will be my focus for the day.

im gay

VOTE: Aptil

[Bomberman]

If Aptil is blue I will prob shift focus outside of those three and look more towards Maxwell/Havo

[Bomberman]

Not enough for me, your flip would clear a lot of things in my head

Probably gonna fade into obscurity now

[Bomberman]

Vote: JJH

Opportunistic flip

[Bomberman]

That feels like Indy to me

[Bomberman]

And you believe that change is indicative of Mafia?

[Bomberman]

No i voted him for the flip because I think he's scum, why'd you vote him
Scum or 3p made that change, either he's blue and scum/3p made him purple to obfuscate that or he's red and scum changed him to purple because they figured he'd be flipped after the Twoface mafia flip

I am feeling the former, mostly because that begs the question why they didn't change TwoFace's color if they had that power

When I said it felt like indy, I meant how his color changed

[Bomberman]

You have to be making leaps and bounds to believe that Mafia would be given such an ability to repaint their roles, even if it was X-shot

Is your vote based on that premise? Otherwise I'm pretty sure JJH should be taken as clear

[Bomberman]

You just said you were VT and originally Blue, and hammered yourself based on the assumption you would be

Max, I did not read the previous games but alright

[Bomberman]

At the least I see where you're coming from given that JJH was so certain he was going to be clear, but now wants to postulate that he isn't for whatever reasons

[Bomberman]

It'd be a bastard game and I'm pretty sure this was not advertised as one

[Bomberman]

If like in game 2, scum can paint Red but not blue, then that would mean JJ was Blue and was painted Red by scum, thus making him purple. No?

That's funny however if we lynched jj and that theory remained to be true it'd be useless for mafia given it would pseudo-confirm Townies who were colored red

Also jj the rules state Blue is town and Red is groupscum so altering or lying about that fact would be bastard

How the hell can you say TwoFace was town when he flipped mafia goon lmfao

[Bomberman]

Well I think saying or 'painting' blue as red would be bastard because it'd go against the foundation set

[Bomberman]

If like in game 2, scum can paint Red but not blue, then that would mean JJ was Blue and was painted Red by scum, thus making him purple. No?

That's funny however if we lynched jj and that theory remained to be true it'd be useless for mafia given it would pseudo-confirm Townies who were colored red

Also jj the rules state Blue is town and Red is groupscum so altering or lying about that fact would be bastard

How the hell can you say TwoFace was town when he flipped mafia goon lmfao

Do you understand the concept of this game

Yeah

Cheertory said he was a mafia goon
That's mafia regardless of what color they are u nog

[Bomberman]

Scum being able to change their own color is a bit too far-fetched imo

Bah mechanics, not my Forte

[Bomberman]

I'll just assume you know what you're talking about and take any flip not blue/red with a grain of salt

[Bomberman]

I got prodded

Not sure where I am at right now, but feeling like lynching JJ would be pretty fruitless regardless of mechanics

[Bomberman]

I don't understand the mental gymnastics that JJH is trying to pull right now, though I have been giving him benefit of the doubt regardless

Assuming varsoon still wants JJ lynched despite his coloring/flip? That's what I'd like to know

[Bomberman]

JJH your argument is very preposterous and not beneficial whatsoever

You're basically making an argument about yourself and trying to get people to believe in some kind of role that would be less incriminating on your slot

[Bomberman]

JJ you should give a full readslist regardless

[Bomberman]

Give them a bit more elaboration

[Bomberman]

Alright sure

Funnily enough, you believe a majority of the people voting you are town, why is that? Aristo has stated intent to vote you merely on the fact of theory, and I don't fully recall what fro99er thought but I digress; The only person who you don't have listed as town and hasn't voted you is Gamma

This is a bit confusing to me and offputting in the event you are town, because you essentially believe that scum would not try and push your mislynch right now

[Bomberman]

I think a lot of the people on you right now aren't too justified and only going on the fact you're purple instead of concrete reasons, which is why I'm mostly against this even if you don't really do yourself favors by trying to say there's some kind of town rule that painted you purple

If you had to be wrong about one of your townreads, who would it be and why? I am thinking about this in the perspective of you being town, because right now if you're scum then your partners already have set their footing in a way that makes them look good, and I'm not sure If I'm ready to believe that

[Bomberman]

One hour? Alright

Raya give a readslist just like JJ did, or some last thoughts we can go off of

Vote: Raya

[Bomberman]

EBWOP: Give some elaboration on your reads or where you believe town should look on your impending flip

[Bomberman]

I feel nothing but dissapointment

[Bomberman]

I'm just gonna vote this on the premise of belligerence and allowing two town to be lynched/killed back to back

VOTE: Fro99er

[Bomberman]

Aptil is a fine vote too, I'm sure he will claim it's him but I'm absolutely sure that scum wouldn't give up the opportunity to NK someone with a misguided shot

[Bomberman]

I think we should use the reveal on someone who remains an enigma instead of just piling on Aptil

[Bomberman]

I don't want a flip wasted on me lol

[Bomberman]

Woudl prefer havo but willing to compromise given that PP hasn't shown any hard effort to get into the game

VOTE: Gamma

[Bomberman]

This will sound like an exucse but I have been subservient to my own needs for the sake of not wanting fro99er yell in my ear

It's very hard to push someone who is so obstinate that they would make 1/4 of the posts made in this very game, and I really don't need fro99er telling me he's obvtown in six different ways

I also agree with Varsoon about havo and maybe I should just nut up and stop being a bitch

[Bomberman]

There's been a certain stigma about this game where TwoFace flipped red and everyone just assumed that the people involved preemptively (Me, Varsoon, Fro99er and perhaps Aristo) were immediately town because of it. I don't like this being put on me and I would ask people read what I am saying instead of being right on someone who even a blind person could see was scum. I don't account that lynch as anything but TwoFace completely fucking himself over, it was not a hard lynch nor hard to figure out. I think this opinion somehow became so twisted because fro99er enjoys seeing himself talk that people just accepted it and have been trying to pick off others, but also try to account the whole situation far too much.

We're in day 3 and we haven't been right since day one. I actually suspect and dislike the people who are willing to simply agree with a gamestate based on one flip and not give any thought. This is why I don't like Havo and why his readslist is even more reason for me to dislike him, and this is why I think we should flip fro99er because all he's doing at this point is poisoning the water well if you take in account he was horribly wrong 2 times in a row. I blame myself for trying to take a passive approach but I'm done with that and I wanna see some scum get the noose this time, and I think our best options are in Havo/Fro99er.

[Bomberman]

I don't believe obv town behavior is saying you're obv town, that's actually pretty fucking anti-town to me. If you were town, you'd prove it instead of posturing which is all fro99er has done, attempting to lead town and falling flat on his face. Stand up against the oppressive frog's regime and enlist for a brighter for all.

[Bomberman]

One more thing, it's stupidly hard to read slots like Aristo/Apricity. I keep them in the back of my mind waiting for some sort of spark, but it's never really come. The worst thing about being wrong about someone is the fact you were wrong on them because of their own indifference. This gives me pause about those two in this particular instance because they are bordering on useless, and right now we've tried the approach of 'useless' and that person turned out to be town (Gamma). At that point, you have to ask yourself if scum is really just sitting in the background watching fro99er mislynch everyone for him.

The likely answer for me is no, but what's further is that if somehow it's not him it's gotta be Varsoon. That's where I'm at right now and then me wanting Havo is just in conjuction with everything else going on, where Havo just looks like the odd man out to me.

[Bomberman]

Aptil, you said you didn't get a shot in yes? Roleblocked of the sort? Try again. Shoot someone you think is scum because I'm not gonna direct your shot and give you something to pin the blame on in the case you're scum.

[Bomberman]

Another thing: Fro99er's claim sucks. It's a pretty useless role if you think about it, because what does it say other than the person was targeted by scum? Is this supposed to be a pseudo-cop of some sorts where people who are painted are seemingly town? I'm hardpressed to believe that for a multitude of reasons, but the fact remains is that the way he did was also pretty shit too. If we take in account of the idea fro99er being our pseudo-cop and scum having the ability to paint people different colors...what purpose would that serve for scum? How does painting someone benefit for them? Why would they ever paint someone again if we flipped someone and they flipped a different albeit being town?

It logistically doesn't make sense, therefore I'm inclined to believe it's bullshit. Everything about fro99er is bullshit.

[Bomberman]

There's been a certain stigma about this game where TwoFace flipped red and everyone just assumed that the people involved preemptively (Me, Varsoon, Fro99er and perhaps Aristo) were immediately town because of it. I don't like this being put on me and I would ask people read what I am saying instead of being right on someone who even a blind person could see was scum.

This is just bull. So I'm supposed to believe that scum Would vote their own partner without any pressure on them to do this?

Yeah? You need to update your opinions on players instead of holding them to only flimsy wagon on a person who was playing a bad scumgame.

[Bomberman]

Maxwell and Bomberman have both avoided talking about the Raya wagon at any length.

Apricity, what do you make of all this?
What are your reads?
How do you think we should proceed?

Several players are having difficulty reading your slot. It would be helpful if you could put down content and be transparent about your goals here.

I had my arm twisted and I felt like I had no other choice to avoid a no lynch, but this is something that has happened about three times now and I've been kicking myself about it.

[Bomberman]

I'm aboard lynching Havo or fro99er, and my vote is likely going on one or the other. Your reasoning for fro99er is decent, but I would ask that you hold to your word impending Havo's flip. Without redirecting, where are you looking based on that?

[Bomberman]

I honestly would prefer fro99er in this situation over Havo, but you believe that he should be saved for your own reasons. That only leads to my second option, but I agree that just telling you who I want is different from making an actual push and reason for it. It's super easy to be lazy and say 'I want this person' and I apologize if I ever do that, and if that seems weird for apologizing, it's a bit directed at myself.

Apathy really kills games like you said, so let me condense my thoughts in a proper post.

[Bomberman]

My general thought about Havo can be summarized by playing only in necessity. Havo's play has been centered around certain events happening, with none of being of his own fruition. I can't remember Havo taking an opinion that wasn't just the backseat of someone else, and this behavior has been pinging me for a long time. You would think that someone who is adamant about certain lynches would try harder to

get

that person lynched, but this never happens. I noted this behavior in D2 where he claimed he really wanted Gamma, but did not do anything outside of that. I think that even if you have a scumread on someone, you should be considering who their mates or making sure you're not just focusing on one person. Not sure if this is a testament to the new meta plaguing the website, but this isn't very townie play to me. Sitting on someone and remaining stubborn doesn't even make sense if you're not going to at least feign that you really want this person. His comments have all been passive, lacking any conviction. He comes around to vote when it's only necessary, and then disappears after. The only time I've seen him try and deliberate something outside of his interests is when you questioned him, but that doesn't make me feel better about him. It feels like he is only playing at the pace of which is being dictated, which is inherently scummy. You think that he would speak up more about Gamma or would at least be wondering where his head was at after Gamma/Penguin flipped town, but he didn't really do that. He honestly didn't have much of a reaction, if at all.

I've talked about Fro99er enough so I don't want to keep repeating himself. People townreading him have no reason other than what happened D1 and it's gotten very stale to hear.

Aptil is someone that I think has potential to be scum, but there's too much surrounding his slot right now to think it's a good push. It's very strange that there was only one kill last night, but I suppose scum could have reason to pin him. I initially thought it was basically confirmation, but I suppose it will sort itself out eventually. I don't think the slot is necessarily town, just not the right push at the moment.

Maxwell had some comments that I liked that have kept me keeping him tentatively town, but this is again very lazy of me and I'd need to read him again, which can be a bit tiresome.

I talked about Apricity/Aristo, but I digress.

[Bomberman]

You could just prove my assumptions wrong by not acting in a way that makes you guilty in my eyes. What did you gain out of Gamma flipping town? You never elaborated because this was apparently your big scumread.

[Bomberman]

You noted Apricity/Aristo as slightly scum, are they just not doing enough to feel like you have anything worthwhile to bring about them?

[Bomberman]

Even if they're not, they have enough posts and enough content to make an assumption, no? Maybe it's not as fleshed out compared to people who have taken a more proactive approach, but right now you think they're not scumhunting, so elaborate on instances and occurrences that make you feel like they're not. I think a lot of people (not just yourself) really want to the gratification of a read without putting the effort in, so I would ask that you do so.

[Bomberman]

Give those thoughts a bit more "oomph." to them. That doesn't tell me anything in particular which isn't what Mafia is about. I agree with you that Aristo/Apricity have not been giving much effort, but I hold my reservations because of how the game has been played out. I know it's not been specifically stated, but Fro99er has made it really hard for others to talk. He's controlled the gamestate for a while now and I don't really blame them for wanting to post if they feel like they're not going to be listened to. Do I think that opinion can be reflected on you also? No, and I gave reasons as to why that is. You need to give reasons why their behavior is not merely apathetic townies, without just saying 'they're not scumhunting.'

[Bomberman]

The huge difference is that they're on the backburner because I think there are better targets, but if you wanna convince me that my priority is all wrong, I have to ask for you to make it more clear.

[Bomberman]

You two have already done better than Havo who said they were going to look at the thread and then dipped immediately after someone stopped pressuring them.

By the way, I'm not treating myself as if I'm not able to be ridiculed. I have felt apathy and confusion towards this game, but I am trying to rectify that. However, I don't think even the most apathetic townie would remain to do so after being called out for it. I'm pretty sure he was just saving face. What's more, I'm also pretty sure that everyone saying they still TR fro99er means I should drop it and just follow suit on Havo instead.

VOTE: Havo

[Bomberman]

I read everything fro99er did as merely busy work and nothing more. Havo, what question is there you wanted me to answer? I don't really know why you're lying down and just letting this happen.

[Bomberman]

There's been a certain stigma about this game where TwoFace flipped red and everyone just assumed that the people involved preemptively (Me, Varsoon, Fro99er and perhaps Aristo) were immediately town because of it. I don't like this being put on me and I would ask people read what I am saying instead of being right on someone who even a blind person could see was scum.

This is just bull. So I'm supposed to believe that scum Would vote their own partner without any pressure on them to do this?

Have you ever heard of bussing? Scum aren't fickle enough to not realize the credit of voting their own partners, which is why in most circumstances, they're not too against of voting them off if the situation arises. TwoFace was not playing a good game and I reiterated this point previously, therefore I don't know why we're taking so much stock on townreads based on his flip. He was prime bussing material and I still hold that at least one scum was on his wagon, but the amount of people who voted TwoFace are dwindling.

Aptil, you said you didn't get a shot in yes? Roleblocked of the sort? Try again. Shoot someone you think is scum because I'm not gonna direct your shot and give you something to pin the blame on in the case you're scum.

I shot JJ .

Where the Hell does the "Roleblock" of some sort come from??????

It was a mistake, I don't know how this is relevant at all.

Aptil, you said you didn't get a shot in yes? Roleblocked of the sort? Try again. Shoot someone you think is scum because I'm not gonna direct your shot and give you something to pin the blame on in the case you're scum.

I shot JJ .

Why did you post the same thing twice? These are things that are important you? I'm not really sure why honestly. Why is it that you're suddenly active and willing to say you're scumhunting only when the finger is pointed at you? I don't really believe your outbursts in spite of this because you haven't had the behavior nor activity to justify that you really care this much. You're slipping and resorting to last minute appeals by putting yourself in a category that you don't even belong in. I asked you to give me some reads and to go back and actually read the game, but instead you ignored me to focus on things that are either 1) answered or 2) not clarified. If you really want this wagon to dissolve you have to get your hands dirty, and I'm not gonna unvote you until you do so. I don't need someone like you alive come LyLo if you're too worried about people voting you instead of figuring out who scum is. What's your points on Maxwell again? Elaborate on them.

[Bomberman]

Yet another armtwist situation, but this one I don't feel too bad about. If scum really decided to not NK to incriminate Aptil, then hats off to them for doing such a ballsy play.

VOTE: Aptil

[Bomberman]

max why are you sheeping me?

I led us down the wrong path yesterday

Deadline approaches and I don't know if I'm ready to trust Aptil completely, so those are my reasons. I would've loved to just lynch Havo and sort Aptil out later, but I'm not crying if he goes right now.

[Bomberman]

Titus, do you think a player like Varsoon would risk such a ballsy strat and not NK? I'm basing the remaining scum on that play.

[Bomberman]

No claims outside of Fro99er who just flipped town. I disagree with his play but I will take some of the brunt for being wrong on it. TwoFace was lynched because he was playing very poorly and was obvious scum. I think we've been taking too much stock on his flip however and we should focus on something more recent such as Aptil today.

[Bomberman]

Actually, I just realized how stupid I sound. Of course there wasn't a second kill, and of course the only action Aptil had was to claim he was roleblocked. The JJ kill

was

the NK. Nevermind this thought process entirely. I've been wrapped up in the idea of the TwoFace wagon having at least one scum, and I'm not taking about when he was confirmed after the flip. This is what led me to believe one of Varsoon/Fro99er were scum, but I'm not really sure anymore.

Fro99er "cleared" Max last phase, and you're clear based on flip, so at least that's two things to not worry about.

[Bomberman]

I'm good with massclaim. I'm just plain VT.

[Bomberman]

I really think flipping Varsoon would make my life a lot easier.

[Bomberman]

VOTE: Apricity

Apathy is killing me right now.

[Bomberman]

I'm still interested in a mass-claim regardless of who is being voted today.

[Bomberman]

Based on Havo's play I don't know I'm really sold on Havo being the (individual) last scum, and that might seems like a slight against his intelligence but I feel it is a bit warranted. Scum were anticipating Aptil being revealed and they wanted to use him being painted purple as a possibility of him being town, wihch I don't really know if those calculations could be made with Havo/Aptil alone. Is there a possibility of 4-man scumteam?

[Bomberman]

Seems to me Cheetory rectified his mistake by allowing scum to paint their own as a means of spreading WIFOM, and right now it looks like the only color is purple.

[Bomberman]

Is a 4-man a possibility in your eyes Varsoon? Talk to me about my theory and who you're looking at. Every 13-man I've played usually is 3 scum (1 possible indy) and the rest town.

[Bomberman]

You've been someone who plays more emotionally and focuses on the tone of things instead of someone who seems like they're meticulous and calculating. This is true even based on the response you gave to me, which you focused on the fact I questioned your intelligence on a certain play.

[Bomberman]

I think the idea of you hamming it up more than usual is relevant however, which was a point I made against you earlier. Instead of focusing on the logical aspect of my arguments, you zeroed in on the fact I didn't like your play, and had a fit and stated how you're town and the only one giving effort. This doesn't impress me because I don't feel it's warranted, and even right now I question your authenticity if the highest priority you had was to call me a dick on a comment that was not related to your personal character.

[Bomberman]

Wait, what's your theory?
I don't see this being a 4-man team unless scum is just 4 goons with no abilities besides painting people purple. Even then, I think we'll know when we lynch another scum and the game doesn't end.
If you think we should proceed with caution and assume Lylo is when we're at a 2-scum situation, I think that's fine, too.

I'm just a bit skeptical about you, that's all. I cannot get the idea of one of you/fro99er being scum out my head, and there's something foreboding about you that has made me hesitate on fully trusting you. Right now I think you or Havo, but as it stands I don't think you'll be lynched anytime soon. I'm not going to delve into NAR WIFOM but you have to ask why you haven't been killed yet if you've been talked up as a good player. Granted, there could many reasons for this, but I feel it's relevant in the grander scheme of things. If I'm thinking about a lesser experienced scum-team, I would assume they would kill potential threats based on merits such as this. Is this a case against you? No. I'm not going to call for your head based on these reasons, but I think as the numbers dwindle I just wonder why it is you're still standing here presently. I can admit my failure in reading fro99er, but that was based on this paranoia I've been having. You could say it's been heightened based on Apricity's flip, wherein I felt that Ariso/Apricity's apathy and lack of activity was less condemning than things going on in the background.

I need to look at Aptil's interactions more carefully before I'm ready to make full judgment on you however.

And you could have said what you said without being a dick about it. But you chose not too.

You took my comment as personal, so I only clarified that it wasn't meant to be. This isn't relevant however so I don't want to be talking about it; Sorry.

[Bomberman]

I really need a second opinion about Havo that is not mirroring my own.

[Bomberman]

I don't understand the conclusions Havo made about Aptil so abruptly and suddenly last phase when he seemingly did not have Aptil on his radar previously to that. There is also a disconnect between what he felt earlier that phase and how he acted oonce it seemed like Aptil was getting the hammer. I ISO'd him and he had Aptil in this PoE list for remaining scum, but seemed to change it around the #861 mark. I guess what bothers me even more is that in regard to this post:

vote : Aptil

You're scum dude.

Posts :

389/390/517/518/542/714/

I know people can have a change of heart, but if these were so relevant to suddenly scumreading Aptil, why didn't he bring it up before? He never addressed these points seemingly up against them. It just reads so shoddy and lazy, to the point where I can hardly believe it. This is furthered by his behavior in the posts made that phase, which feels like a disconnect at times, keeping him at comfortably null in his #1415, but doesn't make sense when he makes posts like #1937 where he states

clear

intent to believe that Aptil is scum and doesn't trust his claim. Even worse when he writes it off at the moment that Aptil is not going to be color-flipped in his #1413 based on one meager response by Aptil.

I understand town can be scatterbrained, but please tell me how this thought process makes sense from a town who thoroughly thought it through. You know what's even worse though? Aptil making this post:

It's also becoming obvious that scum has fooled us quite well so far as no one has any solid scum reads.

So that makes me think my reads must be wrong. As is a lot of people's apparently.

I think it's too much of a coincidence for this to be the case. So scum must be pretty good.

So that makes me wonder about Varsoon and Frog that much more.

let me just have this here Havo. When i get lynched you can look back at your own comment and start re-evaluating.

I just spent the last 2 and a half hours reading the thread and taking notes.

I'm good. But thx.

This looks extremely forced in the grand scheme of things.

[Bomberman]

I would gain a lot more if you stopped trying to appease to town every five seconds Havo. Pointing to a post doesn't say anything, nor is it really beneficiary. If you're going to reference a post, you have to say

why

that post is incriminating. You're playing a very bad towngame right now, to the point where I don't really wanna believe it. Am I paranoid about Varsoon? Yeah. I'm also not ready to believe your incessant AtE and poor thought processes either.

[Bomberman]

You continue to defend yourself when all I want is elaboration and explanation of your thought processes.

[Bomberman]

Bomber and Varsoon have been pushing me for sometime now, that's fine.

When I flip maybe I'll be purple and you will know who was painted last night.

Stop being lazy. Stop trying to take the easy way out all the time. You keep AtEing and I'm not going to respond nor entertain the fact. I'm not trying to bait you into a personal argument, which is why I clarified my intentions in the first place.

he truth is the remaining Townies have no Idea who the last scum is.

No one has a hard scum read so it's made it easy for scum to push me.

Either that or the people pushing me or bad town players.

Posts like these frustrate me. You want to point the finger at others for your own shortcomings and poor play. Are you saying me and Varsoon are scum who is just doubling up on a seemingly easy lynch (e.g you)? Why I would want someone like you alive in lylo if this is how you're gonna play. I keep trying to understand where you're coming from but you absolutely insist in having a fit the moment someones dislikes something you've done. It's not cute and I've stomached enough of it. This is the last time I'm going to give you a chance to explain yourself.

[Bomberman]

You'd be amazed that I'm not completely 100% on you, but that's what you want to assume it is. I've been trying to think about Varsoon just as much, and I really don't want to be wrong on an obstinate townie. Everything in my head has been pinging you're scum, from the emotional appeals, lack of reasoning, convenient vote placements, and interaction with Aptil. You would think that much would make me 100% on you, but it doesn't. There's someone else who I'm worried about, and I think there's a possibility you're just a bad town. I need to see some effort from you however that doesn't surmount to bellyaching. If you respond in the same way you have all game I will not hesitate to vote you and I will give up on that possibility, so if you're town start playing in the interest of others instead of yourself, because right now you just look like you're desperate to survive.

Would like second opinion on Havo from others by the way.

What does AtEing mean?

It means Appeal to Emotion.

[Bomberman]

Just realized I asked for a second opinion on Havo twice. I'm not a miracle worker and I want to feel like people are at least glancing at my posts. We've lynched two scum but I will say that one got himself lynched and the other fell through by circumstance. I don't necessarily believe I'm playing an excellent game or that I'm some kind of savant, if anything I'm quite critical of myself. I do not want to make this decision merely on my own, and I would love to see someone besides Varsoon talk to me how they feel about this phase and the players remaining.

[Bomberman]

What you posted didn't make sense to me because it wasn't conclusive. Try and articulate your thoughts in a way that is more clear. Why were my posts scummy? Linking something and saying it is 'scummy' does not make it scummy. You have to give. a. reason. This is something you're lacking and I have been trying to get that out of you, but you want to insist to make comments like this:

I've said time and again that I have no hard scum read on anyone. So pushing for a lynch on anyone is only gonna make me look scummy, and you know that.

You call me out for not trying to game solve, yet I AM trying to game solve in my own way, while there are others who haven't done anything. You yourself haven't done it, other than build a shit case vs me. I find that HYPOCRITICAL as hell.

I'm not trying to appeal to anyone's emotions, If you want to vote me, then vote me.

Bolded, If you don't have a hard scumread, then why have you been feigning as if you're set on me? This is things that just don't make sense to me. This is things I have a problem with you for. What does it mean that ""I" know that? You're again trying to AtE, but maybe that's your playstyle? You're trying to say that you've been playing bad/a bad town player therefore any discredit against you isn't justified because of it. Stop it.

[Bomberman]

..If you're not convinced I'm scum then why the fuck are you voting me?

[Bomberman]

Pray tell what the specific reason is, please.

[Bomberman]

Vote: Varsoon

This needs to happen already.

[Bomberman]

I'm not thinking too hard on the flip, but even in the chance of you being painted it doesn't really say anything given it's confirmed mafia can paint their own. I'm just insanely paranoid about you and that's the bottom line.

[Bomberman]

So you want to clear someone you think wouldn't be painted? Am I reading your intentions correctly?

[Bomberman]

Aristo is probably the best bet then, which makes me understand why Apricity chose him. That or Maxwell

[Bomberman]

By the way, I favor Aristo being blue more than red, but I'm not against clearing him. I feel like I'm pulling teeth trying to get people to try and flip you however, and sometimes it's just not worth the effort.

[Bomberman]

Yeah. I've been fairly convinced it's one of you or Havo for a while now

[Bomberman]

By the way, we should definitely massclaim. I don't know why we haven't quite yet unless every remaining role is simply VT.

[Bomberman]

Scum is obviously going to paint themselves in this situation, so really it's all WIFOM.

[Bomberman]

Nobody wants to flip Varsoon so I'm throwing my hands in the air and giving the people what they seemingly want.

Vote: Bomberman

[Bomberman]

Go ahead my man.

[Bomberman]

My heart says I will flip blue, so regardless of what happens I will remain true to my heart.

Cause I'm not scum lmao

[Bomberman]

It sounds like someone who is infuriated with the fact Varsoon is nigh untouchable for some goddamn reason and you all wasted a flip.

[Bomberman]

Vote: Bomberman

You're all bloody hopeless.

[Bomberman]

Get me out of this game, jesus christ.

[Bomberman]

What has Varsoon done to

still

be town? Why do I keep getting denied everytime I question this slot and I'm given scraps from people who aren't interested enough to read what I'm saying. I don't really know where I am but it's somewhere between 'I would like to stop worrying about Varsoon' and 'Havo continues to not impress me.' When I try and explain all this, I feel like I'm talking to an empty room. I feel that's the state of this game is in. We're all in some kind of empty room and words only echo as far as the people who actually try to conversate, but then some people come in and throw their votes on or have no idea what's going on because the lack of communication has had us playing into scum's hands. Even in the event of 2 flips, I feel they weren't all that deserved and town is playing a horrible fucking game. Myself included most likely, but at least I have the humility to realize how we've failed on every front to rally together and reach consensus, because every flip and lynch we've made was done haphazardly and last minute.

[Bomberman]

Self-voting in this situation is probably against your wincon, right?

Frustration is very hard to overcome. Sometimes you need to take drastic measures for people to understand the place you're in.

[Bomberman]

you all wasted a flip.

You were on the wagon you know. If you didn't want to be flipped you could have made a case elsewhere.

Ninja'd
Will read.

This feels like a slap in the face for how many times I've tried and tell people how much I didn't like Varsoon/Havo. Please ISO me if you think I have never tried to make 'cases' on either.

[Bomberman]

Because being calm and trying to reason with people obviously has not worked. Don't try and talk down to me.

[Bomberman]

Unvote

I don't believe in going against fundamentals to prove a point, but I was able to show the current mental state I am in.

[Bomberman]

I was kinda hoping I would be painted blue, and felt suckered that scum didn't think ahead. That's all.

[Bomberman]

Correction: felt suckered that scum

did

think ahead.

[Bomberman]

Wait what do you mean painted blue?
Didn't you start blue?

This is Paint Mafia. Each faction is painted a certain color at the start, ergo, I started blue and was hoping I was still painted blue. If you really make an argument out of this I honestly will be done with this thread.

[Bomberman]

Wait what do you mean painted blue?
Didn't you start blue?

This is Paint Mafia. Each faction is painted a certain color at the start, ergo, I started blue and was hoping I was still painted blue. If you really make an argument out of this I honestly will be done with this thread.

You was "Kinda" hoping.

I would've liked to be clear.

[Bomberman]

Maybe Aristo can show me something that can get me to stop being paranoid.

[Bomberman]

I claimed last phase actually, and found myself to be the only who did. I'm plain VT.

[Bomberman]

I will probably be placing my vote on Havo if the time comes. My own energy for this game has depleted over the course of time to get others to offer perspectives to me.

[Bomberman]

I'm not the right lynch.

[Bomberman]

I don't know how to spell it out for you or what to really do. I've been pacing in my mind back and forth and there's this constant twist in my gut about being wrong. It's a distilled feeling where I don't want to be but I also need to take that chance. I was wrong on fro99er and misread his behavior, so since then I've been thinking about how I should look at the other players if that behavior that I deemed indeed came from town. What fro99er was doing just read as pure bullshit to me, and I didn't think town could be that obnoxious. I'm not a type of player who thrives in reading strictly tone, because tone is the easiest thing to fake. This is why I cannot accept what Havo has been doing because his behavior and what comes out of it is surely different, which is something I've tried to say many times.

So why am I here and why isn't my vote on Havo yet? It's simple. I'm scared of being wrong. I wanna end the game today if I can and it's not gonna end if you vote me.

[Bomberman]

Cool

How come you never followed up on your long discussion w Havo. You didnt reply to his claim he was trying to see if Ari would vote you

I don't know if I necessarily believe that. It doesn't make sense for him based on how he's played this game, but refer to my previous post on why I'm hesitant. Some players don't play the way I want them to and it's really hard to decide on these type of players. Part of me doesn't want to take the fall on being wrong again, so I idly sit and wait to see what's happening. It's a bad mentality that has gotten us here.

[Bomberman]

Vote: Havo

This is all I can do at this moment.

[Bomberman]

I think there's probably not a single person not painted by now, but that's just me.

[Bomberman]

It's something I've never claimed to be good at. I don't think it's you therefore I feel like you're gonna flip blue, which at least would give us a clear.

Vote: Aristophanes

[Bomberman]

Need to look over what Fro99er said before about Max.

[Bomberman]

Just a statistical error on my part.

[Bomberman]

I really wish fro99er clarified on his role more.

[Bomberman]

Right now it's pretty much pitted between me and you Varsoon, if we're going under the implication that Max was cleared by fro99er.

[Bomberman]

That's such a weak role if that's all it does, honestly. Are you implying you think Max could be scum?

[Bomberman]

I'm alright with just doubling up on this. Suffice to say the game is lost and we're both town, but I don't really think it's the case. It's amazing how much you've eluded me, but perhaps that came down to how well I thought I could influence others.

Vote: Varsoon

[Bomberman]

Oh please. You know for a fact that you're painted therefore it doesn't mean anything. I'll vote you however to get through flipping phase.

Vote: Varsoon

[Bomberman]

EBWOP:

Vote: Varsoon

[Bomberman]

Wow jee who would've fucking guessed it.

Vote: Varsoon

Oop

[Bomberman]

I wouldn't answer that even if I was scum, therefore I don't know why you're creating a false dichotomy.

[Bomberman]

It doesn't really matter though. My vote goes back on you. I'll answer any questions you have aristo.

Vote: Varsoon

[Bomberman]

I've made clear statements that I felt it was you/Havo, the part of the problem was that I was unsure on which of you needed to go first. The problem with your play and the reason I have been suspecting you throughout this whole game is because your play is so calculated. it all started with what happened with Aptil, and the events of N2. In my head, I felt there was no way Havo would be able to pull something off like that without the help of someone more resourceful. Everything you've done that has lead up to this has been planned, from your phrasing, encouragement of activity, and vote patterns. This is just a small tidbit but I have more to go over once a bit later.

[Bomberman]

While it's on my mind: The way you've played this game, from the very start is a case of too good to be true. Townies have faults, but you have been playing in a way that seemingly does not have them. Even in the mislynches and wrong reads that you've proclaimed, nobody bothered to question or consider those ideals because of the way you presented yourself. Why is that you hold me at arm's length the whole game, trying to address problems such as activity without being forthright yourself? It's evident in your posting that you only serve to look the part and not actually do what is needed to be town. You never stuck your neck out throughout this whole game nor considered your own mistakes, and your thought processes only filled in minor gaps without really going into the way you felt about things. I remembered when I initially felt something was off and stated that I felt that it was strange that you were not killed over infinity, despite it being a case of WIFOM. I think that your experience and credibility was your own downfall for me, because logic persists that the way you interacted with TwoFace and was on his wagon dictated that you weren't aligned with him in assumption.

That's not the case here though. You clearly set yourself from the moment you were posturing about previous games and the mechanics. This is not the point I am trying to make here, rather I just want to point it out.

I have made mistakes. I have been on the wrong lynch. I've been sloppy in some regards, and maybe not too consistent. I was a walking contradiction at times and I had a poor grasp of the mechanics, needing to have things explained to me. I mislynched Havo and I accept that, but I knew that dwelling on that fact wouldn't matter if it I couldn't correct myself for a change. I could've been a lot more forceful myself, but it's very hard when you feel like nobody is listening. I opted to sit and wait for things to happen, only to find us reaching deadline again and again. I'm not really the type of player who assumes the leader role, but I do kick myself at times for not giving it a chance. I have displayed cowardice for the reasons I stated before, where I simply just didn't want to be wrong again. I have had a conscience about my decisions, some even killing my motivation. I felt very exasperated. I can't say that I wished I was lynched yesterday but I surely was about to accept a loss, at the expense of a last ditch effort. I'm sure this can come off as AtE and purely emotional, but to deny the fact that emotions don't exist in Mafia is pretty foolish if you ask me.

That's why I couldn't townread you, that's why I always had you as null. That's why I suspected you in the back of mind. Nothing you said felt like it had emotion. Like it had some sort of meaning, and that it was important to you.

[Bomberman]

For most the game, I thought you were town. I had to readjust and re-read and when I did, you ended up near the bottom of a list of people likely to be scum.
If you're trying to uphold that my infallibility is somehow equal to me being scum, you're disregarding the people who've voted me and the flak I've taken for having controversial opinions and pushes in this game.
There's no excuse for you, as town, to have allowed so many mislynches to go through. That alone should be enough to prove you're scum to anyone.

Who else voted you? The instances are few and far between, and your slot always seemed to escape pressure even when I was pursuing it and trying to tell everyone how I felt about you. The fact of the matter is that I don't have the established credibility that i'd like, and it's my own fault for merely acting complacent when people weren't listening. I find it strange how when I yelled out in the distance (hypothetically) you were the only one to mostly reply to me. There was many instances where I was like 'man, I fucking hate how things are going' and you would play yes man and agree with me, but the fact that you were the only one who really gave me any sort of feedback says a lot about the state of the game. Apathy was plaguing us and I fell into that state many times, which included how the Raya hammer happened. I merely accepted it because fro99er had reins and was being the most loud and obnoxious, which I then felt was scumspect because of the fact he lead us down the wrong path twice.

You never really had to do that however because your only goal was to get through another phase, but I never felt you really learned or progressed based on what you knew. Even players like Apricity who admitted to be playing poorly at the least showed humility, and while scum can very much do this, it's a lot different based on the environment we were in. I just never felt that same kind of emotional output from you, which is to say that you didn't ponder on why the state of the game became as it did. You always veered your head to say the right thing at the right time, but then again you too have been 'wrong', though the difference is that it doesn't matter to you.

How many no-lynches have we had? Two? Three?
And you can't try to convince me that you 'just were not around' at the time.
You swung the Raya mislynch the second you got the chance to.
You were complicit on every mislynch since then and abstained wholly when the wagons were between you and other players--all the way up until the end here, where a lynch on me yesterday would've won you the game.

Raya happened on circumstance, nothing more and nothing less. She was in a bad spot and fro99er was breathing down my neck and I really didn't have the gall to disagree, hoping to use the information I got out of her flip instead of putting my foot down. I didn't really townread Raya all too strongly and felt like it wasn't a lost asset, so I did what was needed in order to avoid NL. The other cases were never my fault, and I always tried to put my vote down as deadline began to creep up. To say I swung the Raya lynch is a complete stretch of what happened, my hands were completely tied. You can go look at my posts and see how I always remained true to what I said, despite times where I waffled between you and Havo and numbers began to decline. I tried to gamesolve where I could and talked to Havo many times, and stayed focused on the people I suspected.

[Bomberman]

I have made mistakes. I have been on the wrong lynch. I've been sloppy in some regards, and maybe not too consistent. I was a walking contradiction at times and I had a poor grasp of the mechanics, needing to have things explained to me. I mislynched Havo and I accept that, but I knew that dwelling on that fact wouldn't matter if it I couldn't correct myself for a change. I could've been a lot more forceful myself, but it's very hard when you feel like nobody is listening. I opted to sit and wait for things to happen, only to find us reaching deadline again and again. I'm not really the type of player who assumes the leader role, but I do kick myself at times for not giving it a chance. I have displayed cowardice for the reasons I stated before, where I simply just didn't want to be wrong again. I have had a conscience about my decisions, some even killing my motivation. I felt very exasperated. I can't say that I wished I was lynched yesterday but I surely was about to accept a loss, at the expense of a last ditch effort. I'm sure this can come off as AtE and purely emotional, but to deny the fact that emotions don't exist in Mafia is pretty foolish if you ask me.

I really liked this for town at the beginning of the paragraph, but by the end I didn't. Started out self aware, but it ended in too weird a way. Plus, I've seen posts like this before from scum plenty of times.

Also, I liked Varsoon's casing post quite a lot!

I'll continue reading.

The last statement was to further exemplify how varsoon's unemotional state doesn't bode well for town behavior. Not all town are the same and the way Varsoon is playing is not isolated by any means, but good scum know their best bet is to try and emulate townplay. My argument I was making is that townies are more likely to slip up and make mistakes, even post things that could be considered scummy, while actual scum are more likely to try and cover all their bases. There's a lack of honesty in his play, and it all felt too calculated and planned for it to be genuine. Does this make clearer sense? I agree with varsoon that walling against my crossvote isn't exactly productive, but I also believe that varsoon is a type of player that would gladly do it and fight on those terms. Those terms in itself are the foundation of my 'case', if you really want to call it that.

[Bomberman]

Consider it a player tactic to strike emotionally in my own defense, but if I haven't made it clear I will do so if I have to. I have thought about digging myself and bringing about some points, but I don't really know if it would make a difference. There is a disparity between the way certain players react, but also what they do. Havo for example is someone who I pegged as very emotional, and I wanted to see through that their emotions were clear, but I let my own judgment decide that it was just hamfisted. I felt he only acted because of his emotions, and not because he wanted to. He lacked in the logical side of things, which led to his downfall. I only refer to this because the way I looked at Havo/Varsoon are completely different based on the assumption of their playstyles, and I knew just from the start that trying to speak and

emotionally

read Varsoon wasn't going to do me any good.

In that way, it may seem like I am trying to base my reads on emotion, but that's not the case. Logically speaking, Varsoon benefits more by trying his hardest to not give out any tells than taking risks. Think about the way Varsoon has operated this game, right from the start. He started off with a strong presence about mechanics to get his foot in the door and already tried playing to best interest. He kept his words textbook and made sure he was doing something, even if it was just talking about inactivity or lack or apathy. These are all fundamentally sound things, but they don't make sense if you think about it in comparison as to how a normal townie would operate. They have faults, they don't just say things at the right time in the right moment. I might even be blowing it out of proportion and just stroking his ego, but it paints a picture as to why these are problems. Perfection can only be pursued, and to ask yourself why someone would care so much about it instead of their words being true should be obvious as to why pursuing such is a problem.

[Bomberman]

Refer to the way Aptil died and the last phase he was alive, how much did he interact with Varsoon? None. Zilch. Nada. Aptil didn't need to because there was plan accounted for, which started with him being painted and then claiming he was a one-shot vig. I referred to this before, but those type of careful steps and plans aren't made by someone who doesn't know what they're doing, and there's really nobody else I could've thought of besides him as the numbers kept dwindling. It's why I wondered if there could be a 4-man, because I honestly still did not like Havo but in the back of mind there was a thought that they way things transpired couldn't have come from a scumHavo, at least not alone. scumHavo would've shot anyone who posed him a threat, and I'm pretty sure Varsoon talked about how much he didn't like Havo.

The point of what scumHavo would do is pretty moot, but the bigger picture is that whole phase couldn't have been done by someone who wasn't experienced enough to think through those things, and there's only one other person alive to fit the description.

[Bomberman]

That's not my case though. I'm trying to state the discrepancy why you are playing in the way you are. I don't really feel "good" would count here either because in bizzaro world where I'm scum you actually haven't played all that well. The brunt of my argument is that you trying to emulate a style that is fundamentally 'good', which is disingenuous because there is no motivation behind it. You've said a lot of empty words and only followed up on things when necessary, but I know that you know that I know that YOU know that I know you have enough experience to understand what pro-town is.

As far as having some master plan--of course I did. I was on the fucking design team for the first paint mafia. When I got my role PM, I was already thinking of the best ways to utilize the paint mechanic to benefit town. I was already intimately familiar with the previous Paint games and aware of what was not conveyed in the opening rules posts that people needed to know if we were going to win. I pushed very hard to color flip my biggest suspect and they flipped red and we lynched scum on D1. If anything, the reason I'm still alive is because you were banking on paranoia (evident by players like Max being kept alive, too) and using my own strong early play against me.

You never did anything about it though. You just blew hot air and tried to rally town when they were slacking, which doesn't take much effort. You think if you have all this presumed knowledge you would put it to use, but you only talked when it was relevant. We're gonna go in circles here at this rate. I've stated my reasons why I have approached your slot in the way that I have, and why I am making the arguments I am.

[Bomberman]

I didn't peg you on the idea of 'too good at mafia to be true', rather I read between the lines and thought about your play as a whole. It's very easy to misconstrue and try and water down my argument by only saying 'you only have the fact im too good to be alive against me', because I never had that thought process. What you said about JJH is wrong though, because I eventually backed off and focused more on fro99er. I have reasons , but do you? Did you ever follow up on a scumread? Did you ever follow up on your mislynches? No. You didn't want to get your hands dirty and of course you didn't need to as long as you kept checking the right boxes for people. I'm gonna say that you definitely benefited from the state of the game and the players to get this far, because I think you would've cracked a bit more under some pressure, but nobody ever got you to that point therefore your only concern was again, to just make it to the next phase.

[Bomberman]

I tried to many times, unless you recall the specific interaction we had with each other and the whole 'nutting up' instance. I was getting fed up with us going nowhere but my hands were tied behind my back when it came to you and Havo just disengaged and got really emotional with me. I was goal-oriented in what I was doing even if it didn't amount to much, but I don't ever recall you pushing a scumread.

[Bomberman]

My early behavior in this game was based on the fact I wanted to relax and be a bit loose. It's why I joined on this account in the first place. I took a risk on Aptil, one that persisted more than believing that we had some sort of one-shot vig. Need I remind you on the phase of rayas death, I had voted and pushed Aptil. There was never a point I townread Aptil, though when I called it an armtwist it's because It was similar in what happened before.

[Bomberman]

God, you keep making the same mistake everyone has made this fucking game. Stop looking at what Varsoon is saying and instead focus on what he does with it, or perhaps why he says it. Maybe because he has a ulterior motive to look good?

[Bomberman]

So you remember when I was like 'what has Varsoon done to be town'? I was very clear in those choice of words because I was and am fed up about people denying me. You all think one-dimensionally about this game apparently and don't question if the things people are selling you on actually are worth it in the end. You're easily bought in that case because as long as it looks proper theres no issue. Goddamnit, you think a player with a smooth operator title knows a thing or two about making their words pretty without any substance, but you don't care about that fact so long as it fits a logical checklist in your mind. You can't think about the game like that with everyone, and if you need to hammer me and see that just get it fucking over with so I can say 'I told you so.'

[Bomberman]

I honestly don't believe Varsoon has done anything to 'wow' which is why I never considered him as a boon in the first place. When I speak about this play I speak about the prettiness in a sense of it being manufactured, which is the only way I can try and tell you. You read my moments of inactivity and indecision as a staple of scumplay, but I have to ask you why they simply can't be faults. I am getting personal and talking down to you at this level because I don't believe doing the same thing Varsoon has done right now is beneficial, because I want you to see the contrast difference between us and make the right decision because of it. I am town and I care about the things I say and do. I am self-conscious to a fault, and sometimes I don't really think too hard about what I wanna say and just let it all out in the heat of the moment.

[Bomberman]

There are two absolutes I have been positive on this whole game and have acted upon it:

1) The TwoFace wagon had to have scum on it.
2) Town was being mislead into lynching each other over the state of the game and lack of effort of it.

The first one is pretty clear, and I based a lot of my comments around it. I said that it was between fro99er and Varsoon but of course I gave Varsoon more benefit of the doubt because he was doing exactly what you said, therefore I attacked fro99er for his behavior. Varsoon has done anything a good scum would, which is let town lynch themselves and make sure there's nothing he can be accountable for. I was also on the TwoFace wagon but if you really think I'm gonna bus my partner ~20 posts into the game then you're sorely mistaken. I've said it before and said it again, the TwoFace flip and wagon wasn't all that special. He wasn't playing good and he was daresay obvious scum that even the most dense of people could see. It was not a hard lynch and not something I am proud of, rather I would be more proud if people would've listened on what I've been preaching about this whole fucking game. A lot of people wanted to come at you and Apricity, or max or what have you and I sat and thought about the likelihood of there really being scum simply in the inactives. That turned out to be a right assumption in my eyes and I made this conclusion based on the fact we were killing off townies left and right. Once fro99er was out of the way it was down to two people, and we're only in this scenario is because everytime I wanted to color flip varsoon or point suspicion at him, you all wanted to tell me he was obviously town and refer as to how TwoFace got lynched.

The way TwoFace got lynched is not telling, it's what happened after it. Why is that a poor man scumteam ignores a power player after their goon had been lost already? Infinity was and always has been a very strange kill, but a lot of people in current meta are too scared of taking risks and just write things off as NAI. It's bullshit. I may have claimed Varsoon was null that point in time, but I damn well didn't townread him, and it's because I didn't want to accept the fact fro99er and Varsoon had to be town and that the proclaimed townbloc fro99er had made was true. That was way more scummy in my eyes because it read like only coasting off credit due. Fast forward a bit, fro99er is gerrymandering votes and making loud and proud claims while I continue and let things transpire because apparently I lack the credibility to be taken seriously as a player. Maybe when I turn out to be 100% fucking right you'll all trust me next time.

[Bomberman]

I did what I could and it just wasn't enough. I take this loss with humility regardless if my reads were seemingly correct. The fact of the matter is that reads mean nothing if you can't do anything about them, and I didn't do enough.

[Bomberman]

I really wish people listened to me and I'm a bit bitter about that fact, but it's my fault for not being convincing enough. It's my fault for not assuming leadership regardless if it doesn't bode with my playstyle. I dunno if it would've helped but sitting in frustration and contempt over the state of the game probably didn't help.

[Bomberman]

You played better than me at the end of the day so I'm not too mad, it was going to be a tough argument and I took a chance trying to convince aristo with something a bit less unorthodox.