Mini 1972 - Friendship is Magic - Game over

[Beefster]

Hello all. I confirmed just now, as I just got back from work. Will read through posts to see what has been discussed.

[Beefster]

^ I don’t like this reaction to being wagonned early. If screenplay were town I would expect more confusion than...annoyance I guess.

And no screen we don’t have enough to lynch you. But for an early wagon out of the random stages making 2 entirely contentless posts is a good start

Nah. This is way too early for random votes to mean anything. His reaction is pretty ordinary.

VOTE: oddmusic

Not much else to go on. We'll see where this goes.

TChill going for the L-1... Interesting...

[Beefster]

Which by the way, both look scummy, but it's early game and I can't half vote.

[Beefster]

Wat.

Lynching scum is mandatory if you want to win.

VOTE: Tchill

[Beefster]

This

is

early game, where we pull ourselves up by our bootstraps. A half baked case against a player is better than none, if only for the sake of gathering information.

TChill == a wisp of a case
Srceenplay == no case at all aside from an ordinary reaction

Jodaxq: I'm considering him as well. TChill is just more vocal right now. Equally? I dunno, but I can hover between the two as necessary. They could very well both be scum. Of course there's not a lot to go on, but some evidence is better than none.

[Beefster]

@Havo: maybe for Day 1-3 real time. In-game, all you really get on later days is cop breadcrumbs, if there is one.

[Beefster]

@Jodaxq: I did consider that possibility as well. His reactions after don't seem too out of the ordinary.

[Beefster]

well im telling you rn theres 1 scum between beef, oddmusic and screenplay... at LEAST one scum that is.

That's an odd assertion to make for a day start game. Just saying.

Let's test that theory. Given who I think it isnt and who I know it isn't, I will

VOTE: oddmusic

And with that, I'll be back in about 2 hours.

@Jodaxq: I wasn't referring to you. Sorry for the pronoun confusion. I was referring to the person you were theorizing about, i.e. oddmusic.

[Beefster]

Let's play a game! Is [Playername] dumb or scum?

In my case, rusty. My last game was about 6 years ago.

[Beefster]

After reading over oddmusic's later posts, I realized he looks pretty townie. I might be biased though because he thinks I'm town. His backing off srceenplay seems appropriate for the situation.

Which leaves me with Tchill.

VOTE: Tchill

[Beefster]

I won't speak for myself because that isn't useful, but odd just seems to be going through typical early game logic. I can see why he looks scum (given that I just pulled my vote off him), but after reading over without assuming I'm biased because he thinks I'm town, his follow ups to his vote (resulting in an unvote) seem genuine to me.

I got a good vibe the first time I read over his follow-ups, but I ignored it because I assumed there might be my own biases just liking the guy who believes I'm town.

[Beefster]

I apologize if that was hard to follow. I'm happy to clarify if anyone wants that.

[Beefster]

I figured you were referencing something. It just seemed like a good moment to mention that fact.

I also had a history of playing dumb town, but this is of course 6 years later, so things change. I tend to overthink things still, which is probably why I ended up throwing off everyone's scumdar with false positives.

[Beefster]

I agree with this. I feel like it would be too obvious an action for scum and especially for experienced scum.

But here we get into potentially WIFOM logic, so be careful with that line of thinking. Likewise, it's not a tell on its own, which is why I didn't drop my vote on him until after his reactions.

davesaz, Dunnstral, and Innocent have been awfully quiet... Just sayin'.

[Beefster]

Then again, this is IRL day 2, so it probably means close to nothing.

[Beefster]

davesaz, Dunnstral, and Innocent have been awfully quiet... Just sayin'.

I noticed you left off wavemode. Probably just an oversight?

No. He posted a couple times recently from that point. I mean more than just the chainsaw he posted on the first page.

[Beefster]

Good Grief. Can we just Lynch scum Screen already?

Someone is a little eager. You really want a night phase don't you?

[Beefster]

TChill: Policy lynch? Really? I still don't see what's so scummy about srceen. Could you explain yourself?

Havo def looks scummy, or at least eager/erratic. I'm going to stick with my vote for now though.

Maki also seems a little off. Her reasoning is a bit sparse. I don't follow her logic.

*gasp* a pressure vote. I'm

sooo

scared. Good luck with that.

[Beefster]

It seems I spoke too soon. Lol.

[Beefster]

@Tchill: what makes you think it would be a good idea to quickhammer on page 2?

[Beefster]

First of all, I don't like how you just reversed the question, as it shows unwillingness to reason. Scum tell? Not on its own, but given your other responses...

I will answer you anyway because I'm nice.

Page 2 hammers are bad because information is good to have: the more of it the better. Longer day == more time for scum to slip up. Shorter day == less time for scum to slip up, sooner night, day 2 becomes a game of catching up. There is a point where it becomes stalling, but that point is not on page 2.

Of course there are some tradeoffs: power roles have more time to be outed which paints nice targets on their backs with longer days, whereas shorter days give cops/trackers/whatever an earlier investigation (meanwhile, doctors/roleblockers/similar stand to benefit from longer days). I believe that the tradeoffs on long early days are worth it and I don't think it's wise to bank on there being roles we aren't even sure exist in the setup.

[Beefster]

No, because what we have to gain from the day is the interactions throughout the day, not the end result. Sure, it sucks we lynched a townie, but in the process of reaching even a false conclusion, we'll have more information to go on than if we lynched quickly.

Fast fail does not apply to this scenario.

I would like to see your point of view and reasoning, not just additional questions. Don't think my responses absolve you of the responsibility to answer my questions.

[Beefster]

I'm fine with follow up questions so long as you answer the original question... or at the very least not deflect/reverse questions.

[Beefster]

davesaz, Dunnstral, and Innocent have been awfully quiet... Just sayin'.

I noticed you left off wavemode. Probably just an oversight?

No. He posted a couple times recently from that point. I mean more than just the chainsaw he posted on the first page.

Wavemode's only post before the chainsaw was a vote on Srceenplay with no other words. So... what did you mean by this?

The posts after were a little better. Though in retrospect, he could have done better to explain his list and why he thought each player belonged there. I'm probably subconciously biased due to him putting me in the green.

[Beefster]

Do I think all the scum (likely 3 in a game this size) are in my list of 4 scum reads by page 6. I’m good but not usually not that good.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but statistically speaking, any 4 player random sample from a 13 player game is likely to contain at least one scum.

My reads so far:
Jodaxq: likely town. Her reasoning that has gotten to the wagon on me makes plenty of sense, even if it doesn't favor me.
Tchill: likely scum. His responses, unwillingness to answer questions directly, and generally substanceless posts do not add up to pro-town behavior.
Havo: possible scum. He hasn't said much, but what he has said indicates he just wants a night phase. Yes, this might be reaching and could potentially indicate some other PR.
Maki: leaning scum. Her posts and reasoning are a bit sparse.
oddmusic: leaning town. First post with analysis was reaching, but no more than would be expected early game.
wavemode: null tell. I really have no idea what to make of him. Chainsaws and lists don't seem quite right, but nothing really screams anti-town to me.
davesaz: null tell. I see Jodaxq's point about him not really having his own opinion. Not sure where to go with that.
HeWhoSwims: leaning town. On the quiet side, but does seem to have pro-town intentions.
Innocent: very slightly leaning scum. Emphasis on very. Really more of a null tell.
srceenplay: leaning town. Responded to pressure and RVS in a town way. Not a whole lot else to go on.
UC Voyager: null. Nothing to go on really.
Dunnstral: null. haven't seen him post in a while.
Beef: I'm biased. I won't read myself. I can see why I look scummy though.

Crap. I gotta go to work.

[Beefster]

Day 1s suck and are almost always a waste of time.

No real useful info is going to come out.

Why is that?

You can't argue he is or isn't scum with more proof than the other on day one. That's the point.

What sort of proof are you looking for?

[Beefster]

And I realize the second question looks a bit like I'm fishing...

Point is, I don't like the general attitude of these two players.

[Beefster]

@TChill: you still haven't answered why you think it's a good idea to quickhammer on day 1. I'm not looking for right or wrong answers; I just want to pick your brain. Please don't dodge.

[Beefster]

Sorry. My bad. Missed that.

I guess we have two separate camps of thinking. Just remember that days are not discrete events. Sure, if you compare the beginning of day 1 to the beginning of day 2, day 2 has more information. Thing is, night doesn't bring much new information to the table. Sure, there are results from cops and whatnot, but they're guessing blindly if you end day 1 too soon. But I guess confirming town is still useful, so there's that. Aside from information gained from power roles, all that night gains the town is a smaller pool to choose from for finding scum. Isn't it better to have both that

and

data from the day before?

I don't think we necessarily need a full two weeks, but I don't think we should be rushing ourselves either.

[Beefster]

Day 1s suck and are almost always a waste of time.

No real useful info is going to come out.

Why is that?

Because it never does. We have just as much chance at catching scum on day 1 by closing our eyes and throwing darts at a board as we do with endless interrogations.

Why do you think it is that games here typically start at day when face-to-face games typically start at night?

Personally, it threw me off the first game I played because it started at day, but I quickly realized the game plays very different on forums than it does face-to-face. A lot more analysis and no need for a poker face. Thing is, no matter the format, the role you have affects the way you play the game, both consciously and subconsciously. Those things are what makes the game interesting, not necessarily the crazy shit that happens in the night phase. If you want crazy shit, theme games are where it's at.

Anyway. That's enough theory ranting. It has at least been informative getting a feel for playstyles. Havo seems to be the type of player who wants to have a good time more than he wants to win... and you know what, that is totally okay. I still don't know what to make of him, but I at least have a baseline to work with. Just know that I will not lynch you if the only reason is that you don't want to deal with a 2 week day 1.

[Beefster]

So who's it gonna be.... Screen or beef?

Tunneling much?

What are your thoughts on the other 10 players in the game? Or maybe I should say 8 since your pool was originally 4 players.

Frankly, I haven't seen much in the way of reasoning on specific players from you.

I still don't like how Tchill and Havo seem to think that Night 1 has magical powers that spontaneously generate data to analyze.

But you know what, I think it's time for something completely different. Let's explore some other venues. The top wagons are stale.

VOTE: Maki

She has not really explained why she has the reads she does. Sure. Less of a case than Tchill or Havo, but you have to start somewhere.

IGMEOU: Tchill and Havo

[Beefster]

lol. I'm dumb. Looking over your posts in isolation, I realized I'm wildly wrong. I definitely remembered things wrong.

UNVOTE:

[Beefster]

I just realized odd has only posted 4 times this game. On its own, lurking is a null tell IMO, but given his oh so wonderful start, I think I've changed my mind about him...

However, I will give him the BOTD and see what his replacement has to offer (assuming he gets replaced) before putting on any pressure. I recall replacements totally turning the tides in games I've played in the past.

[Beefster]

Offtopic: I've seen a few players say something like "this is not AI" which confuses me because the only thing I know AI to stand for is artificial intelligence and it doesn't really go there. Anyone care to enlighten me?

[Beefster]

VOTE: Tchill

Tally ho!

[Beefster]

Holy crap! 7 new pages?

[Beefster]

Everyone, next post, read on Dave. Thanks in advance.

Leaning town. His logic is consistent and reasonable. Nothing really stands out as a scum read.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Dunn

I'm Dunn with this. In all seriousness I can see a world where beef is town. Not one where Dunn is though.

What's with the sudden change in attitude?

[Beefster]

@Toranaga: what's with the erratic voting?

[Beefster]

^ This. At first I was like, "neat. high quality posts!" and then he suddenly switches to emotional/impulsive votes. Seems a bit fishy.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Dunn

I'm Dunn with this. In all seriousness I can see a world where beef is town. Not one where Dunn is though.

What's with the sudden change in attitude?

@Toranaga: what's with the erratic voting?

Just want to remind you these questions are still on the table. Though I suppose the answer to Toranaga's question is 'drugs'. Seems plausible, but it's not the kind of excuse that clears you forever. I'll wait until you sober up before jumping to any conclusions. Could just be dumb (high?) town.

Someone pointed out that UC Voyager is sort of slipping under the radar. I don't like that. The same can be said about HeWhoSwims.

[Beefster]

@Tchill: Wait, are you saying that you only thought I was scum because of 2 posts? It seems like you're backpedaling.

[Beefster]

no? those 2 posts pinged me. You then went on to play what might be tho most "I swear im town" game ive ever seen doing little to no scum hunting. so the 2 pinged me then i was reconfirmed by the rest of your iso.

There hasn't been much new information TBH. Not much, other than Toranaga's chaotic playstyle, pinged me as scummy. I've looked over other players isos, but I feel like any case I could make would be reaching at best.

[Beefster]

Screenplay is giving some opinions, but doing it in a way that seems passive to me.
Not sure how to deal with that.

I agree with this, even at L-1 he seemed very passionless. the biggest reason not to lynch him is the fact that he actually went to L-1 so there's a good chance there was scum in his wagon

Seems reasonable until you realize that any random sample of 6 players from a 13 player game is likely to contain at least one scum.

[Beefster]

vote: screenplay

'oh look how townie I am posting drunk'

denied

^ Is on drugs.

How ironic.

[Beefster]

As tempting as it is to pile votes on Toranaga, I think I'll wait for these two to sober up.

Go home, you're drunk.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Toranaga
VOTE: screen
VOTE: jodaxq
Guys, stop shitposting. Come back when you're sober. Nobody wants to sift through 5 pages of shitposts.

VOTE: TChill

As much as I like a mason hardclaim, I find it suspicious... Maki vouching for it makes it more believable, but I'll have to take a look at the breadcrumbs.

[Beefster]

Lol, those are pretty blatant breadcrumbs. That doesn't clear them 100%, but we can be almost certain at this point they are both the same alignment.

[Beefster]

Actually, on second thought, yeah, I think we have two confirmed town masons. That kind of Freudian slip is not going to happen while high and no scum in their right mind would confirm a day 1 mason claim. Yes, this borders on WIFOM, but eh. It's reasonable.

[Beefster]

With downright obvious breadcrumbs, no less.

[Beefster]

Actually, on second thought, yeah, I think we have two confirmed town masons. That kind of Freudian slip is not going to

come from scum

while high and no scum in their right mind would confirm a day 1 mason claim. Yes, this borders on WIFOM, but eh. It's reasonable.

FTFY

[Beefster]

I shouldn't post when I'm tired.

[Beefster]

Wave seems possible to me, but I want to see what he says today coming off his V/LA before jumping to conclusions.

[Beefster]

^ I'm not sure what you mean here. Something seems a little off and sheepy about this.

[Beefster]

Toras slot is scum read. He comes in takes control of the game. Belittles those that don't agree with him. Speaks highly of those who do. Hmm...

For once, I sort of agree with you. The fact that he's using his mason claim to do whatever he wants is unsettling. I'm beginning to second-guess the mason claim.

[Beefster]

I gotta say I respect your downright reckless playstyle... sort of. I'm just going to ask you to tone it down because it really throws me (and probably a lot of others) off. I almost threatened to policy lynch you and then you stepped in with the voice of reason.

You're getting into some WIFOM-ish territory, but it's the kind of situation where I wouldn't dare seriously voting to lynch you on day 1.

My reads on Tchill are the same as they've been for most of the game: scummy for overreaching accusations, tunnelling, arbitrarily shifting scum pools, and generally not much contributing besides "hey guys, lynch one of these players"

[Beefster]

Oh, and let's not forget the L-1 on page 2.

[Beefster]

I see what you mean, but I say we let it play out.

[Beefster]

so hm yeah. I'm sorry I polluted the thread with fluffy posting at some point, if that's a reason to policy lynch me. :shrug:

It's more than the frequent short posts. The wild voting patterns weren't helpful. You just changed your mind a lot, which is actually a pretty strong town tell IMO.
Yeah. It was mostly the shitposting.
There's enough that looks surface scummy that you have to filter out, but aside from that, you're a solid town read.

wavemode should be back from his V/LA by now. Why hasn't he posted?

I haven't looked at UCV's isos, but he does seem to by laying low and popping in and out with the occasional... not really contributing... or something. That's not the right phrase, but hopefully you catch my drift. That's at least from what I remember.

Don't forget Havo. He's been playing strikingly similarly to Tchill, so I kind of read him the same.

HeWhoSwims doesn't seem to be contributing much either.

I'm reconsidering my stance on Jodaxq. I'm going to have to look over her isos to be sure I'm not crazy.

[Beefster]

I'm not sure if it's the lack of context talking (from reading isos), but Jodaxq strikes me as opportunistic / reactionary and passive. Who I had a strong town read on before now looks to be a slight scum lean. It's hard to say.

[Beefster]

Dunn looks pretty town IMO

Ok. I need to make a new list. Things have changed since my last one.

[Beefster]

Town

Tora, Maki, Dunn, Dave

Null

Jodaxq, wave (leaning scum), UCV, srceen, Innocent, HeWhoSwims

Scum

Tchill, Havo

This has been a crazy game. I wish I had some more solid scum reads, but nothing really pings my scumdar strongly. Lots of conflicting signals.

[Beefster]

Odd/tora - multiple votes on a claimed mason

Before the claim. The only one after was a warning vote for shitposting.

Maki - vote on other claimed mason

Once again, before the claim. And it was because I remembered something wrong.

You're taking my votes out of context. Don't do that.

[Beefster]

To be fair, I found the "mason claim entitles me to do whatever" attitude of Tora to be unsettiling

before

Tchill mentioned it. Just because I happen to agree with one person on one thing one time doesn't mean I've suddenly changed my mind about him.

[Beefster]

It has been crazy by how divided the town is on reads. That and pretty much everyone has done

something

that looks at least a little scummy. Same for towny. Lots of conflicting signals. It's hard to get good reads.

[Beefster]

Odd/tora - multiple votes on a claimed mason

Before the claim. The only one after was a warning vote for shitposting.

Maki - vote on other claimed mason

Once again, before the claim. And it was because I remembered something wrong.

You're taking my votes out of context. Don't do that.

I never said u voted them post claim, but when two of ur three votes this game are now nearly confirmed town, and a third on a town read of mine, all the while giving town reads to two of the more questionable cats is very scum indicative of you.

At both you and tora, my scum read on ur slot has been there all game. Read my initial scum list. Its not just ur votes or reads list.

Or I could have just been wrong. It happens.

To be fair, I found the "mason claim entitles me to do whatever" attitude of Tora to be unsettiling

before

Tchill mentioned it. Just because I happen to agree with one person on one thing one time doesn't mean I've suddenly changed my mind about him.

Then why didn’t u bring it up initially?

Because Tchill got to it first.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Innocent

I don't like your reaching logic and taking things out of context. It feels like you're trying too hard.

I am not attacking your lack of participation. That is not AI. Please don't make this a personal thing.

[Beefster]

I've never seen someone try to take charge but flip on reads so much. Toranaga should be lynched today. That's why you fake claim Mason day 1. Scum would be crazy to do that. That's why you do it.

WIFOM

[Beefster]

I'm going to wait just a little bit longer before I settle for a wavemode lynch. Lurking is not AI.

[Beefster]

Double posts are the worst.

[Beefster]

Uhhhhh I'm not getting lynched in this game for focusing on school (just earned my associates degree btw, you should congratulate me)

Scum if you want me you're going to have to kill me, sorry

also, UNVOTE:

I am glad I waited for your return. Congratulations on the associates.

[Beefster]

This talk of UCV has prompted me to look at his isos....

UCV: I noticed your most recent vote is on Screen back from when he was drunk. Frankly I don't see any reasoning behind it. Care to enlighten me?

You were not really helping during the great shitstorm of page 20 (or whenever it was) and just kind of hopped on the intoxicated players. Seems oddly opportunistic.

[Beefster]

See that's your exact problem UCV

Your view is they were just some posts about pot

Not, "they was some talk of pot, but they were within the context of a broader discussion that was contributing meaningful discourse to the game"

And you felt the need to focus on just those posts rather than on other player interactions that were happening at the time. You're not reading critically enough, and you have the wrong mindset

What that says about your alignment, I'm still debating, but I'm leaning toward scum

this is seriously hysterical that this is seen as a decent case.

And yours is any better?

[Beefster]

I think it's crap but that goes for anyone not on my list. Remember people toranaga is odd's slot. That's important.

Missed this one.

Definitely not important. If a lurky null-read player gets replaced by an extraordinarily active one, as was the case here, I go with the active player. Lurking is not AI. At least not by itself.

[Beefster]

thats early distancing. when has anyone seen masons in a mini normal?

I don't see why not.

Keep your setup speculation to yourself.

[Beefster]

if we lynch one of those 3 and they flip town right now i will self vote day 2.

How does that help anyone?

[Beefster]

I get your case against Tora/Maki, but your screen read has never made sense to me. The screen wagon has long become irrelevant because most of us read him as town or null. There are bigger fish to fry.

[Beefster]

You also seem certain about who the scum team is and there seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why Dunn and I have fallen off your list.

[Beefster]

^ addressed to Tchill

[Beefster]

Screw my Innocent case. That's something for another day.

VOTE: Tchill

Even if I'm wrong about you, you make a half-decent policy lynch. I have not seen much of anything pro-town from you.

[Beefster]

alright beef. gimme some questions to answer.

Sorry don't have any for you right now.

[Beefster]

Actually, you still haven't answered the question at the top of the page. Well it's not really a question so much as a me asking you to explain yourself regarding screen.

[Beefster]

Screw my Innocent case. That's something for another day.

VOTE: Tchill

Even if I'm wrong about you, you make a half-decent policy lynch. I have not seen much of anything pro-town from you.

policy lynches only benefit scum.

Not necessarily.

[Beefster]

Ok. Pushed me for L-1. Threw or agreed with shade against me for my screen compliment in another game, pushed me for high horse attitude. If anyone falls underneath these categories you're a scum lean. If you fall under all 3 you're scum. You know what scum love more than anything? Any cases against people that are actually town that make sense, are easy to push with fake ambition and make the one pushing the case look towny. All 3 of those reasons apply to that philosophy. That being said I'll leave it up to all the other players to distinguish who falls into those categories and if that philosophy is worth working with. The players that it doesn't apply to of course.

whats wrong with this mindset beef?

Because it's a weak-ass case on things that aren't really AI.

[Beefster]

if i answer it will you answer 964?

Already did.

[Beefster]

So you're reaching/tunneling on screen and you're WIFOMing on Tora/Maki. You have nothing substantial.

[Beefster]

^ have you been asleep? wave was V/LA for most of the week. Of course he's lurky. Finals are exhausting. I don't blame him tbh.

[Beefster]

all i want before im lynched is to know how many mini normals have had masons in them.

There is absolutely nothing prohibiting them and that's all that matters. I've checked the wiki quite a lot in preparation for a game I want to mod and they are considered normal and are therefore fair game.

Enough with the setup speculation.

[Beefster]

^ have you been asleep? wave was V/LA for most of the week. Of course he's lurky. Finals are exhausting. I don't blame him tbh.

wasnt he at L-2 for lurking?

Yes, but you didn't see me voting him for it, did you? I've said it many times that lurking is not AI.

[Beefster]

No, because I base my cases on what people post, not on how much they post. Yeah, sure, gaps between posts

can

mean something, but they generally don't. You have to remember that this is a hobby, not a job. Most of us have work/school/life that prevent us from devoting

all

of our attention to games.

[Beefster]

No, because I base my cases on what people post, not on how much they post. Yeah, sure, gaps between posts

can

mean something, but they generally don't. You have to remember that this is a hobby, not a job. Most of us have work/school/life that prevent us from devoting

all

of our attention to games.

This in response to #983

[Beefster]

No, because I base my cases on what people post, not on how much they post. Yeah, sure, gaps between posts

can

mean something, but they generally don't. You have to remember that this is a hobby, not a job. Most of us have work/school/life that prevent us from devoting

all

of our attention to games.

i agree with this. im just stating wave and maki have similar isos.

What does that have to do with anything?

[Beefster]

notice how odd jumped off when the wagon grew to a substantial size.

Because he realized he was wrong. Geez. Context. Use it.

[Beefster]

maki has voted wave then dun then back to dave. not voting screen a single time according to vote counts.

She also didn't vote on a lot of other people. Try again.

...

No actually, stop trying. You're trying way too hard.

Once you realized that my wagon wasn't going anywhere, you backed off and moved on to Tora... Or something. I don't really remember how it played out exactly. Now I'm suddenly off your list with no substantial explanation as to why. Now you're voting against a confirmed mason and trying to use setup speculation to prove that there are no masons. I don't like it one bit.

[Beefster]

notice how odd jumped off when the wagon grew to a substantial size.

Because he realized he was wrong. Geez. Context. Use it.

OR odd distanced from his scum buddy early and freaked out then jumped off.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't put much stock in gambits like these.

[Beefster]

Your theory is reaching and based on something that happened in RVS. You are not taking into account the 20+ pages that have accumulated over the weekend.

Context does not support your theory.

[Beefster]

maki has voted wave then dun then back to dave. not voting screen a single time according to vote counts.

She also didn't vote on a lot of other people. Try again.

...

No actually, stop trying. You're trying way too hard.

Once you realized that my wagon wasn't going anywhere, you backed off and moved on to Tora... Or something. I don't really remember how it played out exactly. Now I'm suddenly off your list with no substantial explanation as to why. Now you're voting against a confirmed mason and trying to use setup speculation to prove that there are no masons. I don't like it one bit.

A) why would scum do this when we could have already lynched and B) the reason i voted you lines up with everyone else i've voted or pushed except screen. Screen is an association read for the most part.

Because hammering an RVS wagon is stupid no matter what your alignment is.

[Beefster]

Just because two people have similar playstyles doesn't mean they have the same alignment.

[Beefster]

Or they're both town.

Seriously, your whole case is that there can't possibly be masons in this game, so therefore maki must be scum.

[Beefster]

its the reasoning for the lynch thats so important.

And you're reasoning sucks. I find that to be an important factor in why

you

should be lynched.

[Beefster]

Votecounts tell you very little by themselves. Context.

[Beefster]

VOTE: Toranaga

UNVOTE:

votes tor, drunk posts then unvotes tor for little to no reason.

I dunno. Maybe it was

because he was drunk

?

[Beefster]

my whole case is scum would be stupid to mason claim day 1 and thats why they'd do it. then theres screen and associations.

[Beefster]

Why should he give a reason? You never give yours.

[Beefster]

Ok. Well never would be an exaggeration, but my point still stands.

[Beefster]

I say give him a break anyway. He was drunk.

[Beefster]

Anyway, I need to go to bed. Have fun convincing others of your crazy theory.

[Beefster]

Maki you were on the wave mode wagon? Why not vote screen here? Why is a UC vote more justified than a screen play vote?

[Beefster]

First

[Beefster]

In all seriousness, let's pick up where I left off

VOTE: Tchill

[Beefster]

In all seriousness, let's pick up where I left off

VOTE: Tchill

Seriously? None of the 3 died and you're rushing to Lynch me? Lmao. You're not scum just an... Well I'll leave it at that. Screen should be lynched today. At work. Will post tonight.

Could be a gambit. If they last another night, maybe it's worth reconsidering.

Also, they could have been protected (which yes, I realize that Jodaxq was indeed a doctor, but there could be others. I'm also not sure how it would resolve, but whatever). There are loads of reasons why legit mason claims would last though night 1.

Aside from that, I really see no reason why the events of the night should change my reads.

[Beefster]

In all seriousness, let's pick up where I left off

VOTE: Tchill

Do you have a real reason for this vote?

Beefster is all about some beef. In all seriousness other than set up spec,which is helpful in catching scum and understanding what could be going on compared to the probability of role interactions.... So it's a good thing, I've not seen beef give a real reason.

What exactly do you mean by "a real reason"? The RVS L-1 was really only the beginning. Other than that, most of my beef against you has been your erratic and unexplained reads (notably, the players that were mysteriously added or removed), mixed with setup speculation and obsession over the possibility of a fake mason claim.

On the other hand, you've been thrashing a lot more today in response to my vote, which is a slight town tell. While that's only one count for you in a sea of counts against you, I will unvote for now to consider other possibilities.

UNVOTE:

[Beefster]

wavemode

Beefster

Toranga (oddmusic)

Maki Harukawa

Havo

Srceenplay

davesaz

Tchill13
Dunnstral

I Am Innocent

HeWhoSwims

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

Care to explain your reads?

[Beefster]

In all seriousness, let's pick up where I left off

VOTE: Tchill

How many scum on the UC wagon, and who are they?

I'm not really sure. Half the guys on that wagon I read as null or town. Maybe 1 or 2? wave, Havo, and you seem like the most likely of the bunch, but it's hard to say.

It probably wouldn't have mattered how or if I answered this question because you would probably turn it against me either way.

[Beefster]

In all seriousness, let's pick up where I left off

VOTE: Tchill

How many scum on the UC wagon, and who are they?

I'm not really sure.

all

the guys on that wagon I read as null or town. Maybe 1 or 2? wave, Havo, and you seem like the most likely of the bunch, but it's hard to say.

It probably wouldn't have mattered how or if I answered this question because you would probably turn it against me either way.

FTFY

[Beefster]

That was my surest non-mason townread as well :/

Before the vote there was talk of a UCV/Dune/Havo scumteam. UCV is obviously not scum, Havo has had some good early posts since the daybreak and I was never quite on the scum!Dunn train. At the same time, the pitcher of that scumteam itself is giving off scumlike vibes but we are really early into D2 so I'm not putting my vote anywhere for now.

Beef's early vote is eh but he was already (sort of) tunneling towards Tchill and the other way around. If either or both is/are town it isn't really helping.

Re:Srceen that hammer was definitely weird. I'm not sure what to say of just the hammer without context, because is it scum or is it way to obvious to be scum? That would be a WIFOM loop. However combined with the rest of his posts... still scumleaning.

This post pings my scumdar, particularly the first line.

[Beefster]

The only difference between me and the rest of the player list is I believe that they're not above fake claiming masons day 1. I will happily self vote if one of those 3 flip town.

It's way too risky to fakeclaim mason, especially on day 1. Combined with the fact that odd and Maki had solid town reads on each other from the beginning of the game (scum would most likely scum/null read at least one partner read early on), I just don't see any reason to doubt the claim. Like I said, I might reconsider that if they last another night, but even still, it could be a gambit.

Yes, I was plenty reluctant to accept the claim originally, but simply looking through the history and seeing the early signs and breadcrumbs leads me to believe the claim is legit.

Your theory might have some credence if srceen flips scum, but I just don't see that happening.

[Beefster]

Yeah mason silence is worrying.

Havo in the above posts checks out... if Screen is mafia then that almost confirms the fact the "masons" would be too. And I do still suspect Screen.

The masons-are-alive scenario is tricky. It seems a bit over the top for me for two of a scumteam to claim mason with the possibility of counterclaims, and then survive night one and go silent. It is a huge risk and although it could happen I'm doubting it for now.

VOTE: HWS

[Beefster]

Scum also do things that would be too stupid for scum to do for town cred. Like Mason claiming day 1.

well you're the king of doing stupid things

if everyone wants to lynch screen sure let's lynch screen

I'm having a hard time with this game

Shouldn't be anyone against this if tora and maki are for it.

VOTE: screen

If they're bold enough to claim Mason day 1 they're bold enough to act like they're ok with lynching their scum partner.

If he really is and he is attached to them as you say he is, wouldn't it be suicide to be okay with it? If one goes down, the other goes down the next day.

Consider it from the perspective of scum. Let's suppose that you're scum in a game like this where masons claim on day 1, but the validity of the claim is up in the air. You

could

kill one of them, sure, but that leaves the town with 1 confirmed town. Or you could kill someone else and leave the town second guessing to the point where they do the work for you and mislynch a mason, leaving you to simply kill the other.

On the bright side, at least you're focusing on town screen instead of obvtown masons.

[Beefster]

Point is, the masons surviving

might

be a gambit and the only solution is not to play.

[Beefster]

how can you justify not voting me but also not voting the other 3?

[Beefster]

Toxic game, Tchill just stop, you're wrong. Or maybe this is what you want. I don't know if maki is scum or what, but we should focus on that tomorrow. There will still be 9 people alive tomorrow, that's enough to look at the mason claims again, today we should lynch elsewhere.

I want to lynch I am innocent or Havo.

VOTE: Havo

I like everything about this post.

[Beefster]

Yeah mason silence is worrying.

Havo in the above posts checks out... if Screen is mafia then that almost confirms the fact the "masons" would be too. And I do still suspect Screen.

The masons-are-alive scenario is tricky. It seems a bit over the top for me for two of a scumteam to claim mason with the possibility of counterclaims, and then survive night one and go silent. It is a huge risk and although it could happen I'm doubting it for now.

VOTE: HWS

Uh, sorry but what else am I supposed to say?

That the masons have been silent since the day started is a fact, I can't deny that. I didn't see anyone point out Havo's posts as contributions and the final part is contributing to resolving the biggest situation/issue we have now. I don't quite see where a sheeping accusation is coming form exactly.

Perhaps I'm reading into things a little too much...

I need to calibrate my scumdar.

UNVOTE:

Maybe I should have re-evaluated my reads after the night phase...

[Beefster]

I guess my thought process was with the one post where you were pointing out that it sucks we lost a doctor. For some reason, it just came off as... off. I dunno.
Then the second post was more or less along the same lines of following what everyone else was saying, but looking back, I think I was overreacting.

[Beefster]

I better give myself some time to gather my thoughts before I jump on a wagon. The Innocent wagon is really tempting...

[Beefster]

Dunn's logic checks out BTW. I just want to make sure I'm being rational.

[Beefster]

I've had some time to think, and I think I will

VOTE: I Am Innocent

His taking things very personal strikes me as odd and his theories seem to be quite reaching/fishing... Other than that, a bit of gut, since I can't explain exactly everything about him that sets me off.

[Beefster]

The srceen wagon is bad. srceen is probtown.

[Beefster]

Or to explain myself a little more fully, the srceen wagon basically revolves around the fakeclaimed masons theory.

[Beefster]

VOTE: tchill

Somebody back up their talk and follow through with it

So you just give up? This is an act of desperation for sure, but I'm not sure if it's desperate town or desperate scum.

[Beefster]

eh... Either way, it's probably not in our best interest to keep you around.

VOTE: Tchill

[Beefster]

tchill scum seems more likely anyway given how he's acted up to this point.

[Beefster]

Could just be that it's Christmas weekend. We're all busy.

[Beefster]

For all I know, UCV was the only vanilla. There are loads of creative ways to balance the game.

[Beefster]

If town gets lynched today and no mason dies night two then we mass claim day three. Should be obv at that point if masons are legit or not.

Seems reasonable on the surface, but what do we gain from that, and at what cost?

Scum will just fake claim to manipulate the town into mislynching the masons. I personally think this plan of attack gains us nothing and paints too many targets on the backs of other PRs that might be out there.

I'm torn between IAI and Tchill, but considering one is a half policy lynch, I'll go with the other.

VOTE: IAI

[Beefster]

I didn't realize that put you at L-1 TBH.

[Beefster]

Official Vote Count

I Am Innocent

(4): Srceenplay, Dunnstral, Toranaga, Beefster

Srceenplay

(3): Havo, HeWhoSwims, I Am Innocent

Tchill13

(2): davesaz, wavemode

Not Voting

(2): Tchill13, Maki Harukawa

With 11 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2018-01-03 12:51:54)

@IAI: FWIW, I put you at L-2, not L-1

And since you requested reads: (reasoning will be vague because I'm too lazy to look over everything again right now)

IAI: scum. Took things personally. I forget what else. Gut probably.
TChill: I'm waffling between scum and policy lynch. I could see it going either way.
Dunn: Town. His reasoning and direction in his scumhunting is pretty solid.
Tora: Town. Mason claim was dumb, but the situation makes it pretty clear IMO that it is legit.
Maki: Town. Mason.
Screen: Town. I just don't get what all the commotion is about. I see nothing substantially incriminating against him. Anything against him looks reaching.
Havo: Leaning scum. Doesn't seem to want to contribute and makes excuses. Sort of in the Tchill camp.
HWS: Leaning scum. I probably read between the lines a bit too much, but something about him just pings my scumdar and I can't exactly place my finger on what it is.
dave: Town. He steers the conversation where it is most productive. Or something like that.
wave: I really have no idea. I have my reasons which I will keep private, but I can legitimately see him as scum, but only if there's a serial killer (i.e. he's either town or SK- and given the fact that there was only one nightkill makes the former more likely). He just seems generally aloof and unaffiliated.

[Beefster]

I guess that makes Tora effectively an innocent child.

The Srceenplay wagon was bad. I wouldn't be surprised if there were 2 or 3 scum on that wagon.

I'd say my top 3 suspects are (in no particular order) IAI, Tchill, and Havo.

But given that Tchill was the leader of the "let's lynch the obvtown masons" plan, I will

VOTE: Tchill

Most of my previous points against him still stand.

As for role speculation, given my own role (hint: not VT) and my impressions on Derpy, I am pretty sure this setup is just ridiculous.

[Beefster]

I didn't figure it would. Just pointing out that the setup could very well just be ridiculous.

[Beefster]

Gunsmith is

not

a safe fakeclaim. Scum wouldn't know if there's a vig or cop out there and it would be too risky to guess. Sure, at this point, the chances are low and it wouldn't be as risky, but given his D2 breadcrumbs and reasoning, I think his claim is legitimate.

[Beefster]

I feel like Wave mode hasn't really contributed

Yeah, he has been a pretty crappy/lurky neighbor.

That's my claim btw: neighbor with wavemode. Vanilla other than that.

I've made you all wait long enough.

[Beefster]

He has only posted 5 times in the neighborhood thread. I thought it was odd that he townread me almost immediately since a neighborhood confirms nothing.

[Beefster]

I can go that way myself. I have my reasons for suspecting him based on my interactions in the neighborhood thread, but I can't quote anything from there so... yeah. I never quite had the same on him out in the open so I kept it to myself.

[Beefster]

And the fact that I was a neighbor was a big reason for my early hesitance to accept the mason claim, BTW. In the neighborhood, wave said some things about the masonry and how WIFOM can work in your favor and it just seemed off to me. Once again, can't quote anything, so you kind of have to take my word for it.

I'll vote wave, IAI, or Tchill...

Actually, maybe just wave or IAI. I'm starting to think I've been wrong about Tchill this whole time.

UNVOTE:
for now

[Beefster]

It helps that Tora already has a giant bullseye on his back and Dunn has already done all that his PR can do for him. Probably the safest situation for a massclaim.

[Beefster]

Well, assuming there are no more PRs.

[Beefster]

I feel like Wave mode hasn't really contributed

Yeah, he has been a pretty crappy/lurky neighbor.

That's my claim btw: neighbor with wavemode. Vanilla other than that.

I've made you all wait long enough.

So ur claiming wave is a neighborizer and you are VT? What night did he add you?

No. Just ordinary neighbor. We've been neighbors since the beginning of the game and nobody new has been added.

[Beefster]

I feel like Wave mode hasn't really contributed

Yeah, he has been a pretty crappy/lurky neighbor.

That's my claim btw: neighbor with wavemode. Vanilla other than that.

I've made you all wait long enough.

So ur claiming wave is a neighborizer and you are VT? What night did he add you?

Sorry slow here. Ur saying you two started the game as neighbors. How many posts do each of you have in there currently. I’d like this confirmed by the other player too..

He has posted 5 times. I have posted 16 times.

This is as of right now, of course.

[Beefster]

My town read in tchill is gone btw.

He freaked out earlier this game about the chances of masons being in a game this size...leading to tons of research. All basically proving him wrong by the way, tho he continued pushing the masons until one flipped.

I thought it very unlikely scum would do that much work and lead a charge that would never happen.

But now the masons are confirmed, another investigative role comes out with zero help D3, and he magically believes it. None of the research, no questioning the validity of it, just believes it.

Maybe it is Dunn/tchill/one of the neighbors.

Sure, but if that were the case, he probably would have left them alive another night to go for a mislynch. Could be WIFOM here. Just saying that doesn't really prove anything.

[Beefster]

offtopic: It's really weird to me that some people in this game are in a different

year

than me. My new year isn't for another 7 hours.

Happy New Year 2018 to all, past, present, and future.

[Beefster]

Doesn't matter rn.

Beef and wave need to talk about lynching Dave.

I'll talk about it with his replacement.

I'm not sure I see it with dave, but I'll have to go through ISOs and see if I missed anything. I see what people are saying about his lurkiness and question asking; I'm just not sure that's AI.

I agree with Tora that dave and IAI are probably not scumpartners, so if one flips scum, we can pretty much clear the other one.

[Beefster]

Hey Dunn’s partner, do scum fake claim? When they do do their fake claims usually provide any help to town, or are they generally garbage like Dunn’s results?

This looks a lot like fishing to me. Not even good fishing.

You caught a boot.

[Beefster]

It's also a trap, because no matter how you answer it it makes you look like scum. Fortunately, I don't care.

[Beefster]

hmm how do i know beefster

Possibilities:
1. The neighborhood
2. PureZC
3. Overwatch (I play a lot of Mei and Mercy, some Reaper and tanks. Deathmatch is fun)
4. Reddit (as Beefster09 - lots of possible subreddits)
5. IRL?
6. It's a reasonably common username. Might not be me.

[Beefster]

Why hasn't Psyche (wave's replacement) posted yet? Silence in the neighborhood as well.

[Beefster]

I meant other than that. But yes, I am aware of that post.

[Beefster]

If psyche doesn't post by the time I get back from work, I am voting him. Normally I don't like to vote players for inactivity, but it casts further suspicion on the wave/psyche slot in this case.

[Beefster]

Not sure if I like going for an L-1 right now, but I suppose it's best to be a man of my own word.

VOTE: psyche

Let's not hammer this right away.

[Beefster]

That's L-1 in case you couldn't figure that out.

[Beefster]

Not sure if I like going for an L-1 right now, but I suppose it's best to be a man of my own word.

VOTE: psyche

Let's not hammer this right away.

So you don’t want a hammer right away but you put him at L-1. In a game where both previous days ended in a quickhammer...

Aka I don’t buy the sincerity of that last sentence.

Earlier, I mentioned I was going to vote him if he didn't post by the time I got home from work. He didn't post, so I voted... It just happened to be after everyone else's votes. On the one hand, it put him at L-1, but on the other hand, I saw no good reason to back out either.

[Beefster]

I've already outed the neighborhood, so unless you have something else to claim, you pretty much just have to confirm it.

For the record, I'm not voting you purely for inactivity. Wavemode looked legitimately scummy and the silence sort of reinforced that.

[Beefster]

UNVOTE:

For now. We'll see how long this lasts.

[Beefster]

So I just ran through who voted for whom and on what day. And my findings are interesting. I noticed 1 never-vote triangle and 3 haven't-voted-since-D1 triangles. HeWhoSwims is in all 4 triangles. I also noticed that Psyche has only one weak connection (mutual D1 vote) to HWS, so I think that suggests SK or town, as I've stated before. SK is still plausible. The kill could have overlapped or been blocked on N1, and wave probably didn't submit anything on N2 and thus didn't kill anyone.

Based solely on these voting patterns and no other context, we have these associations:
HWS/Tchill/IAI (the never-vote triangle)
HWS/Dunn/Havo
HWS/IAI/dave
HWS/Tchill/Havo

I realize this doesn't take into account bussing on any day other than D1 and it cuts out interactions and posts, but it is an interesting result nevertheless.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims
The only problem with this is that it doesn't give a ton of information upon the flip. An IAI town flip would clear dave and somewhat incriminate Dunn, or a scum flip would clear Dunn and Havo. A Havo town flip would clear Dunn and somewhat incriminate IAI, whereas a scum flip would clear IAI and dave.

I can show the table/graph I made if anyone wants it.

[Beefster]

Actually, I forgot that one of wave's HWS votes was on D2, so Psyche actually has NO connections by way of vote. My mistake.

[Beefster]

Table | Graph
Ignore the connection between HWS and psyche. I wasn't paying attention there.

The graph shows possible connections based on who did not vote for whom. Note that I excluded Tora since he's confirmed town at this point. The dotted line connection between HWS and Havo shows the mutual vote on D1, which might possibly be early distancing, but it's hard to say.

Note that if Havo is removed from the graph (and is town), only 2 triangles remain, giving some evidence that IAI is scum. Similarly, if IAI is removed from the graph, only 2 triangles remain, with HWS and Havo in both.

Look. I know it's a shaky case, but that's only if looked at in isolation.

The graph doesn't really show why IAI and Dunn town flips would incriminate the other, for instance. That is shown more by interactions of them co-suspecting each other in such a way that does not look like scum vs scum.

My lynch preference order at this point is HWS, IAI, Psyche, and sorta-kinda-but-not-really-that-much Havo.

I feel a little bit better about Psyche's slot since he came in, but I still would say SK Psyche is plausible.

[Beefster]

I find it concerning that Beef is now advocating HWS/IAI/Wave

@Beef. How much communication have you had with psyche in your private forum?

Pretty much none. Nothing to talk about with the neighborhood outed.

[Beefster]

A serial killer... It could be possible but I wouldn't think so right now. I've never played with one, what would they want to do? My guess is scum is always going to be after obvtown - why would the SK do the same twice in a row if neither town not scum can win with SK alive?

wavemode vanished from late D2 until he "retired" early D3. He probably missed N2 and didn't even submit a kill. It's not terribly unlikely that SK and the mafia kill the same person. Or one of the targets could have been protected or he could have been roleblocked.

[Beefster]

I don't think single kill nights can ever get the chances down to 0%. The more single-kill nights there are, the less likely Psyche is a SK, but the chance is never 0.

I can see the virtue in waiting one more night, but also realize that eliminating a SK at a 6 or 7 player Lylo with (probably) 3 mafia alive is an automatic mafia win. In fact, I don't think there's any way to recover from a 3-1-3. So actually, it's now or never.

VOTE: Psyche

[Beefster]

That's L-1

[Beefster]

Actually, there is a way to recover from a 3-1-3, but it requires cooperation from the SK, which is not really in the SK's best interest.

[Beefster]

Never mind. Optimal town play at a 3-1-3 still ends in a loss.
Optimal town play would be to lynch mafia, SK kills mafia, mafia kills town --> 1-1-2, then lynch SK or mafia, remaining scum kills town --> 1-1, then no lynch + last kill --> mafia or SK win.

You can't recover from a 3-1-3, but you CAN recover from a 4-3

[Beefster]

Wait. Forgot the case where the mafia kills the SK. That one ends in a town win.

I don't think that's a good situation to bank on. SKs are often bulletproof.

[Beefster]

Also, a 2M-SK-3T is recoverable, but only if the SK kills the other mafia member after a mafia lynch.

[Beefster]

Point is, having a SK around during LyLo is bad news. Since it is entirely plausible at this point that Psyche is a SK, it would be best to lynch him now.

[Beefster]

Not necessarily. This isn't LyLo.

[Beefster]

I think that just about confirms Dunn's claim. The mafia probably also doesn't have any power roles, otherwise the town would have had more power roles.

wave probably didn't submit a kill for N2 since he was AWOL at the time.

HWS is in all my suspected scum teams, so I'd prefer to go after him first. I am more suspicious of IAI than dave at this point, but I'm willing to be convinced.

[Beefster]

What are your thoughts now with wave/Psyche confirmed SK?

Do you think there's a third scum, and if so, who?

[Beefster]

interesting you nailed wave as an SK back in 1412? Can you explain that?

He was lurking most of the game and was acting scummy in the neighborhood, saying stuff like "You want WIFOM to work in your favor" - scum tell
He read me as town from the beginning of the game even though the neighborhood confirms nothing. - scum tell
He didn't seem to have any affiliations other than me. He just seemed generally aloof. - SK tell
I guess there was a gut component to it too, but that's pretty much it.

I think that was the first mention of a SK, yes.

[Beefster]

Didn't dave claim VT on D3?

[Beefster]

VT.

Yep.

[Beefster]

I've been convinced.

[Beefster]

How do you explain your sudden claim change from VT to Night 3 watcher?

[Beefster]

Why would someone with an unused investigative action claim it, outside of L-1?
Especially in this situation, with a really obvious kill target to watch...

I thought hard about it being a quasi-CC to a gunsmith, but thought it was possible both roles are present and maybe mafia has a GF and a ninja. I decided to err on the side of safety.

Pedit: Really man, I'm wounded. I play scummy enough to not be sniffed out by maf, barely town enough to not be lynched, and this is how you react. Really?

Huh... I guess that makes sense...

Not sure how I feel about this.

There usually isn't a good reason to fakeclaim as town, but this might be an exception, especially since he faked a weaker role (if his claim is legit).

I guess it comes down to whether we go 50/50 to guess now or to go with a surer lynch now... We'll have to make the 50/50 shot either way. I dunno if I'd say the probabilities are even though. If anything, I'm inclined to believe Dunn's claim over dave's. Then again,

both

claims are awfully convenient.

I think I'm going to have to sleep on this.

[Beefster]

I agree with dave on setup speculation. I'm still iffy on the claim, but that's besides the point. Talk on setup/balance is honestly not all that helpful. There are usually ways to make it work. I mean, for Pete's sake, we had a Masonry AND a Neighborhood, so we can't really put aside any setup possibilities or base cases on them.

IAI's vote doesn't surprise me. This was just the last thing he needed to vote dave definitively. Dunn's vote is the obvious choice regardless of alignment.

I'm still trying to make sense of this. Dunn has played more consistently with his role, but could have been easily faked because his results brought nothing we didn't already know to the table. There was the one breadcrumb on D2, but that can be readily faked by scum. Could just mean he was planning it from the beginning. Dave's play leading up to this claim is consistent in a different way. There's no good reason to drop breadcrumbs on a power you won't use until N3, so that checks out. It also explains the general lurkiness, as he would have wanted to stay under the radar.

[Beefster]

Yeah... I think I believe dave's claim just a bit more.

VOTE: Dunn

[Beefster]

Damn. I was hoping that might work. I don't think there is any recovering from this. Well played everyone.

[Beefster]

Do your worst.

I won't throw out any votes because they all confirm the player as town.

[Beefster]

Probably not. I've conceded that with dave gone, it's over.

[Beefster]

This was quite the game. Good setup, Derpy.

[Beefster]

I'm definitely going to post spoilers in my dead thread the next time I mod. Dead threads in other games I've been in have been a bit lame. Also makes it kinda like face to face mafia where the dead people get to watch the mod do their thing in the night phase and see what everyone else does.

[Beefster]

I also think it's funny that dave and HWS had no idea I was their traitor. From my perspective, it seemed like they knew.

I guess I played really well... Until LyLo.