Team Mafia 2018: Game 3 - Random GIFs Game Over

[Mathdino]

FIRST

VOTE: Almost50

Lol'd when I saw we're together.

Anyway you're clearly the scum of your team so this is a serious vote. More rambles on team compositions incoming.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino - Today at REDACTED PM
basic notes on players alignment preferences incoming
T-Bone: Prefers town. viewtopic.php?p=6677902#p6677902
For some reason doesn't like Normals: viewtopic.php?p=6689296#p6689296
Mathdino - Today at REDACTED PM
CDB: no preference
Bulbazak: no preference
A50: clear scum advantage over teammates
Keychain vastly prefers town
UCV said he sucks at town in december but also thinks he's gotten great at town

@T-Bone:

Why are you here?

@UCV:

Convince me you're better at town than scum. Cuz honestly I don't see any of the rest of your team voluntarily picking scum.
Also I fully expect

Creature

to be reading this thread in particular. Don't care about other threads but please make sure he reads this.

[Mathdino]

Right so we're not lynching UC Voyager today because it takes a minimum of one full ACTIVE day to sort him with >80% accuracy. I played with scum-him. If he actually picked scum this is easy mode.

I'm not going to say why I want Creature watching this game. It has nothing to do with rulebreaking, it's just not something I want to talk about.

I expect regular reads from Creature, with basic reasoning.

[Mathdino]

NSG is my bad cop. GuiltyLion is my good cop. KMD is like the chief of police. davesaz is my deputy (don't be mad at me davesaz idk you too well yet)

I play by ear. My reads are better when I'm the one playing. My playstyle works for me and my long term reads will be informed by them.

Edit: UCV is lynchbait and every 2017er knows it.
If he literally avoids the thread I'm just gonna ask someone to vig him cuz that shit don't fly, but otherwise, we're not wasting a lynch on him.

[Mathdino]

LLD, Bulbazak, Smoke, UCV, A50, skirt skirt are the most likely players to take scum in my mind.

Much less likely players are Keychain, T-Bone, CDB, Bins, Dunker, guessing Radja rn but I have to check who his teammates are.

Your turn in the game.

[Mathdino]

I would be surprised if CDB comes back and goes scum after however many years (or has he been playing recently?).

Bins is a preliminary guess but she definitely doesn't hate scum. I just think given the choice she'd go town.

T-Bone is going off of his TM2015 thread.

I've played with A50 SK before, and across his games he plays up his own ability to play to his town meta as scum. I don't believe he'd have picked scum in this game if he knew I were here already. We've had a lot of recent history and he seemed to think in some graveyard thread that I'd policy lynch him out of paranoia in future games. But he didn't know I'd be here, soooooo

And yeah idk. If you're straight up shit at scum then you're not gonna go scum regardless of what people think you'd do. Personally I chose here because of the Normal and the mod. Others wanted to deal with the other mechanics (and other mods).

I'm also guessing some teams will use that excuse to justify secretly distributing themselves by alignment though.

[Mathdino]

@Radja: On a team with shea, Reck, hiplop, and Cheet, while you self-proclaim as one of the weakest mafia players? Hell yes I think you chose town, lol.

@skirt: I'm going off Bins's GTKAS, but last time I played with scum-Bins it did seem like she hated it sooooo

Here's the Y&B Champions Team thread.

I agree SK isn't really scum but the point is he bragged extensively about how great he WOULD BE at scum, haha. He's gonna be hard as shit to read.

My teammates are telling me to be more wary of Keychain than I'm being because she's

really

good at scum. I responded by pointing out her GTKAS says she hates scum, and with 5 games going I doubt she'd really go for the extra work.

y u no vote
sheep me bro

Edit: Good. I'm policy lynching any spammers tbh. I expect an activity level that my teammates can actually keep up with. Spamming in Team Mafia destroys town's inherent advantage.

[Mathdino]

I wouldn't, because you as scum are gonna answer whatever benefits you most. And yeah NSG was the one who said that.

I did the research on as many players as I could in the 30 mins before gamestart. After I posted, NSG called me out and took it up with me, lol.

Help me read skirt?

[Mathdino]

It would be really fkin nice if Bins released her scum PT from Switch but noooooo guess that's not happening (scumteam with Elmo and someone I forget). I got an N0 guilty on her ;_;

I'm probably not gonna metadive you. I meta newbies, open queue players, and awkward players. End of the day I lack having played with you so I'm relying on other people for this one.

I'm beginning to regret opening with the team composition spec. Kinda ruined early game.

[Mathdino]

I'm withholding my patented Shitty Early Reads List for when more people have posted. 6/15 so far, could literally all be town.

I was gonna ask LLD for an explanation but knowing LLD I'm not gonna get that, am I?

Edit: smh

[Mathdino]

I'm trying to understand what you're saying but I'm seriously not getting it, so I'll just tell you what I've been thinking and you explain in full instead of leading me.

The amount of convergence that skirt and I are having is unreal, and the fact that he locked an immediate townread on me for doing Mathdino-y things was highly concerning.

Then the fact that he sheeps me and is generally super friendly with me and my logic to the point of my pointing out one detail influencing his opinion?

I think skirt skirt is scum. Wasn't gonna say anything yet. I like my vote where it is given that I have more confidence in my ability to read A50 than skirt skirt.

If you think I left something out, lemme know, but otherwise it's your turn.

Edit: GOTTEMMMMMMMM

[Mathdino]

Don't know if I'm mad sad or glad that LLD's town.

But yeah, with that kind of opening, even if their team did draw scum PMs, I doubt they'd give it to LLD. That's just asking to get investigated. Plus I'd expect Llamarblescum and Cabdscum over LLDscum.

Edit: It makes sense, and I understand where you're coming from.
That said, I'm not a tone-reliant player and I'm unwilling to follow an early conviction-based wagon (or vote switch before my main man gets online). I have my own tells I use when it comes to levels of conviction as the day goes on.

Edit2: I acknowledge that you said a thing in response

[Mathdino]

#SheepingMathDino

thus far this has statistically been proven to win games

[Mathdino]

Actually, this is important.

@skirtskirt

: Please indicate exactly how much your teammates have been contributing to your game since gamestart. Who/what/where/how.

[Mathdino]

Hey just so everyone's aware (and this is near the pagetop so all of team mafia can see it):

PROBABILITIES FOR TEAM COMPOSITION

Crunched some numbers. From a spectator's standpoint, a random team has a:

33% chance of getting all 5 town.
41% chance of getting 4 town 1 scum.
20% chance of getting 3 town 2 scum.
5% chance of getting 2 town 3 scum.
Negligible probabilities otherwise.

I'm currently toying with the idea that

going out of your way to tell people

"My team got all 5 town PMs"

without being prompted to answer this kind of question

is a scumclaim.

Will letcha know if I've made any progress on this.

Edit: skirt's response is concerning, yeah. I want more eyes.

[Mathdino]

SKIRT. Why are you nullifying your own ability to read people by fucking

predicting what they're going to do?

[Mathdino]

Read the italics.

I would actually argue that for a plurality of teams, there's a very very large benefit for the scum teammate in saying "we got all 5 town PMs".

I'd rather not keep talking about it too much. Still working on that theory.

Edit: lol CDB

[Mathdino]

@Radja: Nah. Another day.

I also don't want to accidentally bait people tournament-wide into breaking the rules.

Radja if you're here give thoughts on skirt vs LLD.

Edit: lol I seriously doubt Transcend is reading too deeply but I appreciate it

[Mathdino]

I'm very confused as to why skirt's teammates weren't actively following this game in particular.

@Elena

: In a team of high quality scum players, I agree that someone likely to take scum would purposefully avoid it (that's actually why some are avoiding voting LLD; I'm confused why you jumped on anyway). HOWEVER, in the case of a high skill differential between players, when there's really a single obvious choice for scum on a team, I think that's worth pursuing. A50 is better at scum than his teammates. Anyone else playing scum here would likely flounder. There's a 66% chance his team got a scum role PM and as an INITIAL VOTE in the FIRST POST OF THE GAME when ONLY SIX PEOPLE HAD POSTED I think that's a fair vote. I'm not gonna switch until I see content.

I don't understand what's convenient about that post. It's literally what I was thinking and what I'd been talking to my teammates about. I also have a tendency of getting buddied by rational-type players and then getting pocketed, so.

You also didn't read the italics. Yes, if anyone asks "how many scum role PMs did you get" the answer is always "0". THE PROBLEM is using the logic of "I'm town because we got 5 town role PMs, but I would've taken scum if we got any of those".

Do you see no issue with going out of your way to say that?

[Mathdino]

Math, what percentage ofr your team is friends with you?

Why do you care?

[Mathdino]

Perfectly fine with my LLD vote as I think her stance against skirt was just really bad and taking advantage of the situation at hand from what I gather Math seems like a stupidly easy person to pocket and maybe LLD caught onto that.

Look at this point I'm defending my pride here. I had the "skirt is almost definitely scum" idea in my mind from around 15 posts in. But seeing as he was the only one around to talk to me, I decided to work with him and generate some content for others to look into. I wasn't initially planning on revealing this scumread until we had everyone check in.

When she started pushing skirt and then pushed me to give thoughts on him, that's when I dropped the logic from earlier.

You seem to have this impression that just because everyone (or a really good player) says some guy is scum and writes a fancy case, I'll agree with it.

I seem like I'm easy to pocket because I'm friendly and I treat everyone like they're town while talking to them.

[Mathdino]

You're thinking of someone else. I haven't finished a scumgame (without jesters) in 3 years.

Clarify/correct yourself and I'll answer.

[Mathdino]

LLD, less than half the playerlist has checked in in a non-prodgey way. It's possible (extremely unlikely but possible) that everyone here is town.

I'd like to pump the brakes on revolving the game around 1 or 2 discussions. This gives a massive advantage to the 15th player to check in if they're scum. This is also how towns implode. This is ALSO why I was withholding that earlier scumread.

That said, are you suggesting an Elena/skirt connection?

[Mathdino]

So you believe Almost50 took a scum pm if there team had one because the other memebers on it would be bad on scum? There are many things wrong with this because of factors and variables we have no way of knowing maybe he's a pr he really enjoys maybe they got no scum pms etc etc I think the vote is bad I wouldn't mind if the vote wasn't srs but the fact you're basing it on this logic just seems like a reach from me from someone who seems to take a lot of steps into account

...yes. And I know I'm not alone in that because this is very agreed upon Team Mafia logic. When people can choose their alignments, it changes things.

You're reading wayyy too far into it. An early vote/wagon is intended to generate pressure. This forces the target to generate readable content. From the standpoint of my very first post, knowing nothing about the gamestate, A50 seemed by far the most likely person to be scum. Because of any team, I believe his has the most skill differential in scumplay.

If I have extra information from the beginning of the game (meta of preferences and skill) I'm not going to make a random vote when I can vote someone more likely to be scum than anyone else.

If you still think that's a reach, I don't know what to say.

Edit: LLD JESUS STOP QUOTE WALLING

[Mathdino]

You're thinking of someone else. I haven't finished a scumgame (without jesters) in 3 years.

Clarify/correct yourself and I'll answer.

?

I literally don't know what the fuck scumgame you're talking about. Do you think I'm an alt? Or did we play together and I just don't remember it? Or are you an alt?

Cuz I don't recognise you at all and I've finished like 4 games since your join date.

[Mathdino]

Preliminary reads suggest Elena is derptown and to a lesser extent so is Smocaine (in retrospect I actually don't think Smoke would take a scum PM either).

Edit: LLD, your words are way less noticeable when 96% of your post is taken up by

other people's words

. Edit out the stuff that's not important, dude. I'm listening but the walls are making it harder.

Edit2: Jesus christ you're doing it too Elena

like i'm glad this isn't the spamgame

but please don't make this the 1v1 wallgame

[Mathdino]

I'm not trying to 1v1 LLD I just want her to quote the 2 posts in question between you and skirt and say why skirts is bad (or just quote the 2 posts and I'll go look at her reasons again) because I clearly thought it was the wrong post.
Also how dare you call me derptown I'm offended!

Misunderstanding my logic (or being opposed to probabilistic reasoning in general) often strikes me as a towntell. Scum are afraid to get in logical arguments with me that they could lose.

And I'm referring to the LLD vs skirt 1v1 moreso. I don't want that to take up the entire early game. Knowing LLD it has the potential to turn into some gladiator match. Tbh I was gonna purposefully stop posting for a bit so we could get others but I couldn't resist responding to shit

[Mathdino]

The more I play the more people refer to me as the setup spec/numbers guy. I'm happy to talk theory with you. On a more wincon-related note (as opposed to pride-related), this helps us sort each other.

And seriously if you're quoting a post with a quote inside it, just edit out that inside quote.

inb4 this becomes a 2013 thread with back and forth walls everywhere

[Mathdino]

I TAKE BACK WHAT I SAID: CLAIMING YOU GOT 5 TOWN PMs IS NOT A SCUMCLAIM

My bad, sorry guys. Ignore all of that.

If I need to I'll explain what I was thinking way later in the game but that line of thought has no benefit right now.

[Mathdino]

Hey Bins! Glad to finally see you play

I specifically made that argument in reference to LLD opening by arguing that had her team gotten scum, she'd have taken it, but they didn't.

The problem with the Keychain argument is that she also presumably wants to watch and advise 4 other games. This is hard when you're uncomfortable with your own.

[Mathdino]

Go with it Bins, trust me. That topic is still a work in progress.

It's not a scumclaim but it is tingly. Preemptive self defence is a scumtell in general. This is a specific form.

[Mathdino]

I, as a point of egotism, claim better at scum than I really am.

Bins you forgot to vote

Also please read Smocaine for me thanks

[Mathdino]

Ohhh right that's who you are

Mafia role and/or alignment? I always pref to flip mafia and my fav role is Bodyguard or Universal Backup
Moment in a mafia and/or mish-mash game? Has to be my first scum game where I had half the town fooled but the one person who didn't tr me was the cop who got last pick and outted a guilty on me and a few people still thought he was scum over me.

I thought thisd be relevant when I saw this looking through GTKAS xD

[Mathdino]

I say nothing yet. We should evaluate LLD on other things for now. Imma get back to you if teammates think that point is really worth it.

Math scumgame is try hard but like I'm pretty sure I scumtell all over the goddamn place

Like I'm pretty sure opens and newbies can't tell but given this caliber of tonereaders (I still don't understand tonereaders) I'd avoid scum like the plague.

If you wanna peruse Jester Nightless, that's my scumgame.

[Mathdino]

Yeah this seems weird. I've very clearly been reading people based on things in-thread. Plus there are definitely scenarios where a team would outright ban a player from playing scum.

Vote stands, will justify it if anyone asks but I don't really feel like doing that rn.

Also Dunker is way town lol
"MATH IS SCUM no wait math is town shit"

[Mathdino]

I'll write up a patented lolcase on A50 in a bit.

Bulbazak's entrance is completely and 100% NAI, which is fairly concerning.

Keychain I gut-disagree with you on Elena's motivation there. You're basically suggesting that scum would come into the thread and shit all over the information we have and be like "WELL MY JOB HERE IS DONE" and fuck right off. Makes much more sense coming from town that just complains about shit a lot.

Radja, I have LLD as town right now because her posts seem town-motivated and she seems to think her reads are an objective thing that people will pick up on (they're not but whatever). We're probably gonna have to PR-clear her or paranoia-lynch her at some point, but it's a bad D1 lynch.

[Mathdino]

1. CDB, have you not yet read the meta-arguments for people choosing their side, or do you just disagree with that logic?

2. We haven't but I'm pretty sure you're the most famous scummer from

that

side of the pond. You've shown up in more than a few older reads. You come off as someone who would be more comfortable with town unless practiced.

give us reads o english one

[Mathdino]

You could also just not tone-read and have a much easier life that way

Waffling is not a scumtell no matter how much LLD's generation of scummers think it is. I waffle as town naturally and then I just learned to not do that shit and then I stopped getting lynched.

If experienced scum is doing that, it's either a towntell or it's something intentional.

I need reads on Bulbazak.

[Mathdino]

Or maybe this is exactly what we thought and decided I won't be playing a Scum role if we rolled any? And then we ended up not receiving any red PMs anyway? Just a maybe

VOTE: ChannelDelibird

Literally don't know them. I may not have played with Bulbazak or Smocaine before, but I saw the names before (Smocaine, I was following the last game as I was considering replacing in before momo took the slot).

I'm going to take the risk and ASSUME Mathdino is Town here (obviously for no apparent reason other than me HOPING he is). Very tangible vivid trust, is it not?

Don't like this offhand excuse but I've made that clear already. Also feels like he's going through the motions of rolling into the same game as me.

How about we stop this kind of assessment and try to develop reads from within this thread? I want a wagon to sheep that eventually leads to a lynch on Scum, me giving correct reads and getting shot on N1!

this is off

I'll probably stop arguing regarding this matter, but ask Chara if they would say they could reliably predict what I'd do had my team rolled a Scum role at all! I mean, having just won as SK I would expect investigative roles to be all over me just in case. This means it'd be suicidal for me to pick a scum role to begin with. I don't want to get into hypothetical claims, so I;m not going to ask anyone to out there target if they were Cop. Just answer it to yourself and decide if it would be wise for me to volunteer to play a Scum role to begin with.

Suffice it to say, if I was Scum and there's a Cop I'm likely caught on N1. It won't be even for anything wrong I'd do. It'd be because many players (including my own hydra p) are promoting me as a good scum player, but neglecting to say I'm also clever enough not to pick a scum role -under the circumstances- if given the choice.

I want to place KeyChain in the Town lean pile for now.

Then I stopped the multiquoting here because yeah this makes sense and I was skimming to catch up all the threads.

Fuck.
UNVOTE: Almost50
As long as we're agreed that he's the obvious first investigation target.

VOTE: Bulbazak

That logicky post is pinging me in all sortso f ways. Feels like an overexplanation of an analysis on not all that much source material in the first place. Makes him look active/helpful without really advancing the game (because fundamentally, it's just saying why he's hopping on a wagon).

choo chooooooooo

[Mathdino]

I still don't find maria scummy

VOTE: bulbazak

are you doing this on purpose...?

[Mathdino]

i for one do not want a reads list like that because it does literally nothing to help sort A50 xD

but yo do what you want dude

[Mathdino]

Ah yeah that was before I started getting paranoid of that scumtell-not-a-scumtell.

Her explanation majorly checked out to me at the time so I was inclined to believe it at face value.

[Mathdino]

@Radja: Strategic explanation checks out.

Like, scum in all-vanilla won't get checked, but this is a normal, and probably has some kind of investigative. A50 understands that the differential between him and his teammates is high, but it also seems like he knows that literally everyone else knows that too. Honestly just a bad D1 lynch.

Edit: honestly i have no reason to put any sort of faith in transcend's reads

[Mathdino]

because my scumread on him was literally entirely based around the idea that he'd pick a scum role

he's directly responding to my logic lol

don't play "gotcha" with me, hypocrisy isn't a scumtell

[Mathdino]

A50, join the cool kids wagon, you are more often killed N1 for correctly sheeping me

so tbh
A50 might be town, Bins is town, CDB is town, Dunker's town, Elena is town from a few personal tells (also sheeping CDB), Keychain's town, Radja's town, and UCV is likely town at this point

we lynch in the remaining 6 players gg
skirt is honestly still probably scum

[Mathdino]

@UCV:

Excuse me but where are those Creature reads I so politely requested? :O :O :O
You better be actively following this game,

Creature

. I know you're online. Send your thoughts to UCV because tbh he can't think for himself on D1.

I know nothing about Aeronaut as a player, sell me Bins.

[Mathdino]

Tonereading is, in the most part, shit.

That said, I have a quality read on CDB's last few posts.

VERY strong Brit-read.

Dunker I have a hard time believing you'd be the one on your team to pick a scum PM.

[Mathdino]

@A50:

1. TR on Bins is gut. I played with scum-her before. Elena read is from previous conversations. Feels like derptown, it'd be really weird of her as scum to come in and start trashing the way I do RVS.

2. 2:1 I'm town means I should be your strongest scumread. Everyone is by default 4:1 town. And lol @implying I'm gutsy enough to roll scum in the biggest event of the year when my scumgame is riddled with tells. Me-as-scum is constantly scared. Told the team pre-rolls that I don't like to play that way when I'm also trying to tryhard across 5 games.

3. No case on Bulbazak for now sorry. Waiting for Bulba to get back into the thread. We're still lowkey in RVS given that most players haven't checked in.

[Mathdino]

@Elena: never played with you. I don't like to publicise the tells I personally use early game because it just nullifies that behaviour going forward. It's not worth it to justify an early townread unless people actually want to lynch you.

Also whose team has Something_Smart on it? Cuz that's the guy that can read me. Only person I know in this tournament who's caught me as scum before.

Edit: @A50, @CDB, who's your favourite football team? This is important to the game I swear

[Mathdino]

@Dunker

: Exactly how much are your reads influenced by your teammates? More specifically UnaBombaH/Srceenplay? (A50 knows what I'm getting at here)

@A50: Premier League. Also you seem to be under this weird impression that me handing out an initial townread on tells is me deciding "YEP IM NOT LYNCHING THIS ONE EVER". I know most of the players in this tournament are good. Contrary to open queue belief, my initial reads on good players are not that good. We'll see as Elena keeps posting.

@CDB: Nice. Only scum supports Manchester United so that's why I asked. Also explain Bins scumread because I'm worried I have a blind spot there.

Edit: Yeah T-Bone remains inside the PoE lynchpool lol

[Mathdino]

Nah don't worry about it. I mean go ahead if you want but Una and Srceenplay have a proven track record of being bad at reading me and A50 (paranoia/playstyle) so I was wondering if that's where that came from. Tbh I'm probably gonna pay more attention to Boon's input.

[Mathdino]

Don't worry, A50, you'll never walk alone on that opinion

Reads on CDB?

[Mathdino]

The reason I don't like the "My entire team rolled town" is because I just can't trust it. No one should trust it and I don't think it's worth saying, even if your team did roll all town. Just based on numbers and odds, it's not going to help you. And it definitely isn't a good defence. When I draw out my table and my reads, no matter what you say, I'm going to start with the idea that each team has one scum unless my reads prove otherwise.

There are three situations here:

1) You aren't lying and everyone on your team is town.
2) You are lying and you are town and someone on your team is scum. You're trying to save their ass, maybe. Pre-emptive, but sure.
3) You are lying and you are scum.

2 is the weird one because there are teams in the game that know you are lying, because they have scum partners with someone on your team. Therefore, I feel the only position you can say this in is 1/3.

Not sure if you agree with this Math, but I'm not sure.

FUCK. I completely missed this, Bins.

Yes, that's literally exactly what I was thinking.

I shut down that discussion because this now produces information about other games moreso than it does about this game.

But yeah. Remember that the probability of a team drawing all town is 33% and the probability of one drawing scum is 41%.

If someone who's very very well known as a good scum player uses that as an excuse, it's highly likely they're lying and are the only scum PM on their team.

I shouldn't get into specifics but my team is doing a lot of work behind the scenes. I can only hope that me letting the cat out of the bag doesn't nullify future tells tournament-wide.

[Mathdino]

@Bulbazak:

Up to what point in the thread had mastina read and offered opinions?

[Mathdino]

That's a fair point, thinking about it from your perspective.

I'm stretching myself thin actively keeping up with all 5 games, and being that the other games generated a LOT more content than this one, I'm now contributing a lot more analysis there.

My goal in asking questions is to get people talking in general to jumpstart conversation and reads. Maybe other people come in and comment on them.

Then after a bunch of people are in, I drop reads, votes, and start playing politics.

tl;dr this game is really boring me, and if I'm more useful elsewhere, I'm gonna go do something else.

P.S. I actually did discuss your answer with my team (or rather, shouted into the void because I think they think I have this low-content game handled right now). I don't see significantly positive utility in talking about my reaction yet. This game is slowly becoming a "solve behind the scenes for fear of breaking the rules" game for me.

[Mathdino]

Okay but now I'm going through the thread trying to find things I should've responded to and I'm not finding much. Quote the instances in question?

I think we played together at some point. And I know a lot of players in this tournament. My whole thing is setup spec and theory-based logic, informed by motivation-based reading.

The problem is I don't think you've done anything really motivation-readable yet. And I'm shit at tonereads. Most games I open with a bunch of shitty early tonereads to get things going, but this game, setup spec outweighed that.

And then there's the problem in that any discussion that veers into setup spec goes into rulebreaking territory. I can't be completely open. And partial openness doesn't help anything until I need to start pushing a read.

tl;dr show me which conversations I dropped and I'll pick up the ones I can

[Mathdino]

mulch is 100% sure skirt skirt is scum. like. he is screaming at me

VOTE: skirt

You have yet to give me input from Creature. Has he been reading the thread?

If so, please post any thoughts he's had on the game since the start (and around what page we were on when he had those thoughts).

[Mathdino]

B. For me, the problem is more that a few 1v1s (the skirt vs LLD wagon) blew up to dominate the game while other players laid low. My fear is actually of scum in the logicky lowposters.
But besides that, if you actually look through my ISO, it's a lot of me getting in conversations with players who started opening up back-and-forths with me. skirt with team composition spec, LLD with my read on skirt, Elena with theory, etc etc with Smoke, A50, Bins... Whatever I did early, it caught a lot of players' attentions, and I've been posting this much to engage with them.

C. Of course it's still important to me. I don't, however, think it's worth all the "meta is trash" arguments yet when I'm not yet in the position to push a wagon. I'm filing away that evidence (and my team and I are still figuring out who would/wouldn't pick scum on each team) so when there's actual content from everyone, it can inform my reads.

I'm wondering if this is a playstyle thing. I've definitely been accused before of asking people questions and then never following up (don't remember where). If you'd like, feel free to search my completed towngames for question marks. You'll see a lot of random questions that I don't always care about the specific answer as much as I care about getting the person talking. I don't like interrogating people for "gotcha"s.

D. Okay but I have been doing more than other people in this game. You can't simultaneously call me out for not paying as much attention as usual but also being overactive.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: UC Voyager

You wanna start answering my questions?

[Mathdino]

VOTE: UC Voyager
VOTE: UC Voyager
VOTE: UC Voyager
VOTE: UC Voyager
VOTE: UC Voyager
VOTE: UC Voyager

[Mathdino]

So you're saying he hasn't been reading the thread?

That's a rephrased version of an earlier question I asked. Please answer that.

Give specifics as to when Creature has provided input.

[Mathdino]

I'm not asking you to have Creature read the thread literally this second.

I'm asking you when he has provided input in the past, and if he has been reading this thread.

I've twice requested specifically him to be reading this game.

[Mathdino]

K now we're on a roll.

@Bulba:
Re: skirt: I thought he used "good.php" to say you're good at scum, dude. Will wait for skirt to respond to this tho.

Re: skirt voting you: I guess you could say I'm backing by canvassing votes for your wagon but he's pretty clearly scummy and I pointed out his repeated sheeping when he did it.

Re: Your entrance: I think I was expecting more interaction. You had a lot of words but little content. Talking about yourself in a way that I don't really think was necessary. Most of us know that you getting in arguments isn't personal, I think.

Re: Your 2nd post: I actually agreed with your reads. I'm not at a point where I can find interactions yet, so I wasn't like "oh wow he's bussing skirt" but it was more "hmmm this post is kinda scummy, but it's also objectively correct in a lot of ways".

Re: My scumreads: Yeah I was scumreading both of you, lol, just not as a team. Tbh you were more of a "I'm very concerned about this player and I want to put pressure to see what's going on with him".

I've gotten that.

I buy Bulba's explanation for his own overexplanation, and for not playing how I might expect. Vote stands on UCV.

EDIT HOLY FUCK GUYS STOP QUOTE WALLING

[Mathdino]

I really don't like how insistent you are in communicating with player(s) not in this game. I get why you might do it as town...but it is plenty clear why someone might do it as scum. This is my 'this specific thing is pinging me' post to alert other players though. It's not really aimed at you (despite being addressed to you, because it sounds better grammatically that way), so please carry on.

Edit: Oh and then Skirt does the same thing lololol...I don't know if he's mimicking Math on purpose or...

Do you understand yet why I'm asking the specific questions I'm asking?

The mastina thing is something mostly irrelevant now. Bulba already claimed mastina gave input and I was soft-factchecking that. I honestly don't super care what mastina's reads are this game (no offence, mastina).

The Creature thing is a completely different thing. You asked me for follow-up on my questions, and I think this is the biggest read I have.

If you don't understand, I recommend showing your team the questions I'm asking and why I might be doing that. In case it wasn't clear: I think UCV is scum.

[Mathdino]

I wanted to get a potentially readable or alignment indicative response. It seemed really weird that I noticed in his team PT. His response was "well my teammates saddled me with this game, and I guess I could be lying, but whatever, and also I played scumgames in TM when I had to so".

1. I literally can't continue on this road in this thread because then I have to start speculating on what his teammates' alignments are and what they'd want to pick (hence behind-the-scenes work).
2. He's made it clear that despite his slight town preference in 2015, he's also very willing to play scum, so that nullifies that whole deal.
3. "My teammates didn't want this so I got it" is actually pretty fucking obvious looking at the distribution of his team. So I believe that.

Didn't see much point in follow-up when there was a bunch of other stuff to be talking about.

Re: meta: Only half an hour to an hour's worth, I think I said that. I looked through the TM2018 players' recent GTKASes, went through their TM2015 PTs (I compiled and read those before role PMs were sent out to see what works for communication), and otherwise just knew some things about various players. I'm back from like a 3 year hiatus. I only recognise some people (from before and from just recently) so there are a lot of gaps in my knowledge.

I'd really like to know what I'm missing actually.

[Mathdino]

Can I ask you (in good faith) why you feel it's problematic? This might be more for postgame but postgame is a long way away.

[Mathdino]

My teammates hardclaim

Haven't Kept Up With The Game

. Until now! (well they've read like a few pages but it's k)

Have some shit to discuss.

NSG thinks that Bins's entrance was weird, and the amount of agreement she has with my logic is indicative of attempted pocketing. I have no meta of Bins suggesting she usually opens like that as either alignment, so I need eyes on this.

KMD thinks that:
- Elena's initial question was weird, but is willing to give a pass (I don't see the problem with it)
- Keychain is locktown due to how she answered Elena somewhere
- The fact that Radja told me and skirt "Hey guys I totally could take scum!" is majorly townish.
- He's townleaning skirt.

@skirt:

KMD wants to know exactly why you gave me a townread as early as you did.
- He thinks LLD's scumstrat would be to drive a wedge between me and skirt by pocketing me and tunneling him due to intimidation of a possible townbloc.
- He thinks there's one scum in {skirt, LLD}. He had an issue with how both of them so strongly locktowned me and then started getting in tons of 1 on 1 conversations with me (basically trying to pocket me). He doesn't however think LLD would ever open like that against a scumbuddy skirt.

I'm actually inclined to agree with one scum in skirt/LLD.

The reason I'm not voting them is because
A. I want to push other possible avenues so the day doesn't stagnate into "my way or the high way"
B. Since I do think at least one of them is town for sure, the negative utility of lynching skirt-town and LLD-town is pretty high. It's a risk and people are in a lot of disagreement over the two of them.
C. If we have any investigatives, they can and likely will check one of the two. Done.

oh shit i just refreshed and he has more thoughts hang on

[Mathdino]

KMD kept reading:
- skirt's 52 is townish off of meta from Boon's game. KMD doesn't like skirt's reaction to pressure though. Is really undecided on skirt vs LLD.
- skirt-scum is indicative of Elena-scum (lol pre-flip associatives but good note for later)
- he lol'd at Smoke confusing me with Mathblade somehow given that we're completely different
- A few thoughts redacted due to rules or negative utility of revealing them.
- He believes Dunk saying that his teammates wouldn't give him scum

It sure sounds like skirt is a good lynch on the horizon. Highhh info.

My town (in the order of me being able to remember names):
Dunker: meta, gut, doesn't seem like a damn liar
Keychain: meta, KMD-backed read
Smocaine: meta, fucked up who i even am (if he's scum, his scumteam is weak)
Radja: meta, early-game responses to questions
Whichever one of skirt/LLD isn't scum: they're not scum together

Town leans
Bulbazak: responded super well to questions, his team appears to be making an effort to sort
CDB: meta, twisty confused but ultimately good logic that seems unlikely to come from scum

Need sorting to solidify reads:
UCV
A50
Elena
T-Bone
Aeronaut
Bins

@skirt:

Need to know why you think LLD is town.

[Mathdino]

I don't see why throwing suspicion on 2 players working together takes that much of a leap. It's literally something I'd do as scum. I'm not sure KMD is arguing all that much more than that. Down the line if/when he catches up to this point I'll see what he thinks. This doesn't depend on some kind of self-importance for me/skirt, it's just coming into the game and being like "huh those 2 players are doing a lot".

Annoyed at myself for missing the potential Binscum. And also annoyed in that it's gonna suck if we mislynch her today because if she's town she's gonna be pretty high utility later. Will get more thoughts when GuiltyLion actually gets online for once

CDB, I think you should trust the Keychain townread for now, given that almost everyone is agreed on her meta, her preferences, and her entrance into this game.

Sell me on A50, I could use a non-shitty wagon.
inb4 lynching A50 makes him go ham on every other game

[Mathdino]

Got it Bulba, that makes sense. I think you have a higher expectation of my meta knowledge than is reality; I only did surface-level investigating and fundamentally I don't know how many of the players here WOULD act.

That said

, active players often end up controlling the narrative. And given that skirt and I were heavily going into the meta territory, LLD is clearly the most obvious suspect that would come out of that discussion. Even if she doesn't generally respect skirt (or me).
I think my teammates are generally wary of me being pocketed (and apparently so are some players here O_O) -- 3 accusations so far

NSG is better in the meta department than I am given that my understanding is that she's read almost every game in the past 5-6 months. I'm fairly sure she followed Bins and my game. Her input on Discord is mostly that of "don't underestimate this player as scum; I've seen them capable of a lot".

[Mathdino]

Bins, the fact that a certain someone isn't paying attention to the game is a major scumtell. Do you see what I seeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Surprised you don't have a read on T-Bone yet (I don't because 1v1s bias the fuck out of my reads). Thoughts on his conversation with me?

Edit: dude that's literally the same argument that LLD and skirt skirt are both making

[Mathdino]

I need more eyes on this. Ask your teammates to joint ISO me and UCV (just ctrl+F UCV in my ISO) and to see if they follow where I'm going, and whether this is actually alignment-indicative for that team's slot. One of them will get it.

That goes to most anyone really.

[Mathdino]

Can you ask mastina? I actually do trust her take on this one.

[Mathdino]

The fuck? I'm trying to AVOID mislynching UCV. Shea doesn't understand exactly what I'm looking for right now. I expected a towntell from him and got a scumtell.

Tell the most site active during 2017 player on your team to take a look. My read has nothing to do with UCVs actions themselves (avoiding the thread which he gets lynched for).

[Mathdino]

Read between the lines, youre capable of seeing my trajectory on UCV's slot

[Mathdino]

A50 is probably scum but I know he sees what I'm saying so I'll ask anyway

A50 does this hold merit?

[Mathdino]

A50 why the fuck aren't you trying this game lol

Idc if this is a test, you should be working with people, it's what I've seen from town you

VOTE: Almost50

[Mathdino]

Because every time you die N1 you've had accurate reads

You turning out to be town holds a lot of weight in my mind

[Mathdino]

I never argued you didn't know how to scumhunt

I'm confused as to why you're not even trying

Like people aren't REALLY hard pushing your lynch

Edit: UCV was likely to be town by team composition, i wanted to confirm that so he doesn't get mislynched

[Mathdino]

Or if you're town you could nab a win for your team by being good

You're the most likely member of your team to pull off a win and you know it

[Mathdino]

i thought we agreed to not use team composition to read people

i'm not playing this game with you, let me repeat myself

1. I went into the game thinking "Okay UCV either brazenly picked scum or other teammates went scum". Whether or not you agree with my meta logic, this was a need-to-sort slot for me.

2. I also figured, okay, UCV is a prime target for D1 mislynches, and I can read UCV personally given a day, so let me set up a situation that will allow me to read him later (you can see me doing this in like my first few posts).

3. When UCV got here, he dodged the questions I had and displayed the exact scumtell I was testing for lategame. I'm currently debating whether or not this holds water (and I'm asking other teams to also figure this out). But I was LOOKING for a towntell because looking for towntells is my preferred scumhunting method.

[Mathdino]

Hey T-Bone, I know you personally don't like my approach, but can you hit up Espeonage (and Aneninen if he's been site active) and ask him if I'm on the right track here? Favour to me. The longer I'm wrong, the more time we're wasting.

[Mathdino]

I understand what you're saying. Understand that I'm policy lynching you if you do nothing all day but I'll give you benefit of the doubt.

Last question: Why did you choose smith's game instead of Ether's game? The three responses I'm fishing for are "Not answering", "Didn't matter", and "The mod". All 3 are acceptable but I need to flesh out my mental scenario of your team.

UNVOTE: A50

VOTE: UCV
Until someone convinces me this is stupid, we need to get him in thread.

[Mathdino]

This makes no sense. Full stop. Skirt, I don't mean to offend....but who sits up at night worried about Skirt? He doesn't have a reputation for being a quality player, and his playstyle is going to make people not want to listen to him initially. Of all the strong personalities in this game...

I can't describe what I want to say at the moment, other than not good things. KMD's thoughts tank your slots' credibility...because A) this is a lazy read through by him or B) a lazy readthrough by him to try and give the appearance you and your team are scumhunting in earnest.

I literally don't know the guy but he had a strong entrance so he immediately struck me as a strong player. I'm going to reiterate exactly what KMD said with words swapped out to not be verbatim:
"- I'm townreading skirt, but weakly because he's good at scum. I want to know why he hard-townread you [Math] so fast.
- It'd be difficult not to "townscumread" LLD

; it seems like she's pulling apart you [Math] and skirt with her skirtvote opening and hard-townread on you followed by pulling you into a skirt scumread. It looked like you and skirt were setting up a teamwork dynamic and that could be intimidating to scum.
- There's likely one scum in {skirt, LLD}. They both hard-townread you way too early and it looks like they're competing for your attention. But LLD doesn't enter like that if they're scum together."

I'm not here to defend his logic but it checks out to me. I'm giving those thoughts so you guys can discuss the merits, not as a representation of what my team is thinking. I don't expect that what people's teammates think is gonna be alignment indicative for most (MOST NOT ALL) people, and you know full well it'd be much worse to have a teammate just bullshit a bunch of reads they wouldn't think as town.

PLUS HE LITERALLY READ 2 PAGES AT THAT POINT

Edit: @T-Bone: wat. I thought you had an ethical problem with my trying to read people by meta/what their teammates thought, so I was afraid you just wouldn't even entertain my train of thought on principle, thus cutting off Espeonage as a resource to me.
persecution complex wat. i'm under no impression that anyone in this game is out to get me

[Mathdino]

T-Bone I may or may not have just had a revelation: I think your team is scumreading the things my team does on playstyle. None of us are watching all 5 games like a hawk, and not actually being in the thread changes your ability to push people around and give fluid reads and trajectories on people. This gives the impression of bullshittery. I've rarely asked "Hey can you give thoughts on this specific thing", it's always been "Yo read my game and lemme know if anything stands out". Nothing did for NSG. KMD came up with something to talk about.

In a way, this is like a really weird hydra. If KMD were actually playing this game, his thoughts would look a lot better. They're his. I'm trying to represent what he's saying as best I can because I believe more voices is the cause of TM's townsidedness.

So as a question in response: Are you scumreading this solely due to gut/tone/apparent fakery? If so, then like, fair, my team's playing a game of telephone here. He was falling asleep as he read through my game. But if that's not the only reason, do you see scum motivation in KMD's specific input other than me just pasting them to look busy/gain towncred?

[Mathdino]

He read only half my thread. I'm still waiting on him to catch up in full. Keep in mind I asked you to have mastina's take on one specific thing, while I asked NSG/KMD to just read the game and let me know if they think there's anything I missed. I'll tell him that reexplaining himself is a priority though.

[Mathdino]

You completed a single town game with me. A geriatric. Micro. In which I replaced in after early-phase D1.

I don't know how you expect me to not be aggressive if you literally post and comment on other people while openly ignoring my questions.

What I'm asking is this: The thoughts that you said Creature had. Did they trickle in as the thread expanded? That is, WHEN did he give you those reads? Had he been reading the game as I requested of him BEFORE I had you ask him what he was thinking?

[Mathdino]

sheepsaysmeep caught my scumgame (only after I speedmislynched him though). Creature played a loooong mini with town-me. I'd be surprised if he ever misread me.

But that aside. I have a guess as to why you see a difference but I really need you to answer the Creature thing.

Edit: I think I'm straight up miscommunicating my questions. Sorry.

1. Had he been reading the thread prior to your entrance into the game?

2. When you say "that day" do you mean literally when you asked (because I asked) or did he already have those thoughts ready? As in, was he reading this thread

and also giving thoughts on it?

3. If you did have to prompt him for reads, how long did he spend reading the thread to get them?

[Mathdino]

UCV is lock-fucking-town. Thanks dude.
UNVOTE:

Creature hates scum. He won't try even when people ask him to. I asked him to follow this game as a test to see if he could come up with legitimate thoughts without being asked to. As it is, almost all of Creature's thoughts on this game are #GOODPOSTING. I'd like others' input on this but I'm fairly satisfied with this (admittedly meta-based) read.

k scum is hiding. Any ideas?

[Mathdino]

) Elena is most likely to choose scum from her team 2) eddie succesfully pocketed someone 3) Mathdino's reads seem pretty good 4) We want eddie cane pushed but I'm not 99% 5) Keychain was scummy but then he thinks he must be misreading them 6) LLD is scummy 7) Early game called LLD, skirt skirt, keychain 8) bulba is town 9) almost50 is town cause playing like open 707 10) Bins is town 11) Dunkerdoodles feels town

VOTE: skirt skirt

Sheeping Creature's idea til I find something better to do. Want more thoughts from skirt skirt on the players who've checked in.

[Mathdino]

I don't feel great about disagreeing with Creature, but for now, sure.
VOTE: Bins

[Mathdino]

Asked KMD (without having had him caught up yet) if he even knew who skirt skirt was; figured he might've gotten his impression just from this game. KMD knows he's Eddie Cane and considers him a good, smart, analytical player. Relaying T-Bone's posts to him now.

This is weird drama to get involved in. My understanding is that you're scumreading my slot because KMD shouldn't respect Eddie Cane as a player or think that LLD would. That seems presumptuous and I literally know you're wrong on that because KMD DOES think highly. Feel free to post any evidence to the contrary. If you want I can go dig up games KMD and Eddie Cane played together so you can look through them.

[Mathdino]

Posting replacing sentences/words with my own renditions:

wtf [exclamations and question marks] Eddie is a good player. What makes him think he's not? Most of the time people townread him; it was interesting seeing this early wagon on him. If T-Bone thinks it's because skirt often has bad reads, fine. But I'm flabbergasted that he actually thinks he's not a good player.

Here's a link to the source of my opinion: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=73745

He town leader'd it up and nearly won it. He did everything possible to impose his vision on winning it for town and a wild claim was a part of that. As scum, I was legit afraid of him. Respected him for that.

[Mathdino]

And I find it odd, because at that point in the game YOU were the charismatic leader Math. Now, you may or may not feel this way, but in the gamestate we are talking about (like the first 12 hours), you were the charismatic leader and Skirt was the lynchbait. His entrance was not strong, he was spam-posty, and then he mimicked you in some ways. If anything, wouldn't you be the more logical pocket for a scumplay in that situation?

I'd like to lay this to rest too but I genuinely think we're miscommunicating here. KMD's entire point was that LLD wanted to pocket me and turn me against town-skirt, who was basically cheerleading me and my meta shit. His point was also that skirt wanted to pocket me (this is also LLD's point) and get me to townread him, making himself the victim against LLD-town. He found it weird and figured one of them could be scum (incidentally, he's fully read up now and thinks TvT is possible, but that's beside the point). I'm not sure where we disagree here.

@Aeronaut: oh shit i'm pocketed already
just tell me who to vote for

@Bins/CDB: I feel like we're still in a low-info stage. A50 wagon did fuck-all, Bulba-wagon resulted in towning it way up, and I don't want to bring us to the endgame of skirt vs LLD quite yet. Was basically looking for any wagon and Bins was, at that point, null. My original read was gut, and my early gutreads are almost always shit (this is well documented lol). Switched to null at NSG's prompting. But yeah I wanna see what happens; my reads are not solidified yet.
I will admit I'm a little weirded out at A50 displaying my progression

for me

:/
That said I also feel like he fully knows I'd find it weird based on his behaviour toward me in previous games. So yeah.
KMD thinks A50 should be checked if we lynch in {skirt, LLD} btw.

[Mathdino]

Why does she do this as scum?

[Mathdino]

Zach says that Elena is playing really affably, like she's on tiptoes and thinks it's a scumtell so that reassures me on that vote.
He's also leaning scum on Bins, first post in particular and thinks that while 122 is her best post, it also doesn't say a whole lot. On the other hand RC thinks she's town, I'm leaning that way too.

[Mathdino]

I don't think A50 is a viable lynch today, guys. What he said actually makes sense.

I'm slowly gaining interest in a potential CDB wagon.

This is a weird D1.

[Mathdino]

S_S isn't following? Glad Ari is. S_S would be my choice on your team for getting reads. Aristophanes knows why I think that

Tbh you should trust them over me; repeated 1v1s and interrogations really bias me unless I get reined in by players I trust. Basically:

- This game started off with a meta discussion unlike that which has been seen before. WHO WOULD PICK SCUM? skirt and LLD both agreed that had they gotten any scum PMs, they'd take it. A few people were lock-towned due to this. Dunker, UCV, Keychain. I "RVS'd" A50 because he has the most differential with his team in "scum skill level".

- skirt and LLD entered with a 1v1. skirt then started TRing LLD while LLD has been pushing skirt. Elena and Radja also got involved with that discussion. I personally believe this is the 1v1 that D1 will end on, so I've been focusing on other wagons to get more info first.

- Smocaine entered, gave me shit because he thought I was Mathblade, and left

- Went after Bulbazak for a weird entry after A50 responded. Bulba came in and towned it up. He could honestly be fooling us but I don't want to risk losing his team's reads yet.

- Major wagon opened up on A50 for WIFOMing all over the place in a really weird way. You should honestly ISO A50, I'm still not sure what to make of this.

- I've had my own side project on trying to sort UCV by using Creature's interest-level in this game as a tell.

- More than a few players have expressed distaste in the amount of meta going into some people's (my) reads. Other people have expressed distaste for THOSE people because they think scum is trying to limit the information available.

- Other than that, we have a weirdly low amount of information, likely inadvertently caused by ending RVS in literally the first post of the game.

[Mathdino]

I'm mixing all sorts of players and games up, sorry.

Correction: A few people generally agreed skirt would be likely to take a scum PM, but he claims they got all 5 role PMs so it didn't matter anyway.

Not accusing you on this point, just saying how the first few pages panned out.

[Mathdino]

Re: skirt vs LLD: I'm waffling. Gun-to-my-head I say skirt is scum and LLD is town (weirdly). I like the pressure on one or both of them, but given that I'm certainly not best for the job of picking those 2 apart, I'm using my abilities elsewhere. But yeah if I had to end the day right now I think I'd lynch skirt.

Re: UCV project: Creature hates scum. My experience with him in JK9++ was that he doesn't even pretend to be interested to the point that you can run him up and he'll roll over and die. He can't fake town-interest; he's had 1.5 years to learn how to. So I told him on page 1 to

fucking follow this game and give UCV reads

. If Creature wasn't paying attention, speedlynch. UCV delivered in a way that I can believe Creature legitimately followed the game and believed in those reads. Unfortunately UCV spent a good deal of time dodging/misinterpreting my question. Which is classic UCV.

Re: Meta being helpful: Oh I agree, only a couple of my reads are based on choose-your-side-based meta. But that discussion transitioned into people basing reads based on how much OTHER people liked meta early on

Re: skirt: Honestly I don't know. Getting a lot of conflicting reads on skirt from players I trust. My team seems to base a lot of their reads on whether or not people are trying to pocket me (I can't wait to see what they think of A50 these past few pages, lol). I'm not so sure. But I do know he's a good scum player, LLD is towning it way up, and LLD's case on him is pretty convincing.

Re: A50 viability: I'm not gonna answer this right now unless I actually have to defend A50 from the lynch. Tbh I'm still working on this problem with my team.

Edit: lol Dunker can't read me to save his life

[Mathdino]

there are blatant contradictions in his posts, he's exaggerating things to make them seem in his favor, he's manipulating and his posts are very open ended
(such as in that post "i'm slowly starting to like a CDB wagon" is very open ended, he could justify a townread or a scumread"

wattt
1. You've pointed out "contradictions" in things that have literally just been me changing my mind. You don't seem to understand that my early reads mean fuck-all to me late-D1.

2. What does "in my favor" mean?

3. Who am I manipulating? The hilarious thing is multiple people are accusing others of trying to manipulate ME

4. Uh, no, I'm pretty sure that's a "I'm feeling iffy about this guy and I'm lowkey scumreading him but would like to sort him better".

Dunker what I fail to understand is why you never just ask questions or ask for clarifications when you straight don't understand what someone's doing. Literally anything you want me to expand on, I can do it. I just don't feel like walling it up with every single post I make.

And no shit my posts are open-ended, I have no idea who the hell is scum this game. I don't usually play with people of this caliber.

[Mathdino]

You really don't get me as a player, do you?

1. You're not even reading. My EARLY reads mean nothing. As in literally my first 2 reads lists in almost every game are bullshitted. I do this to create a record of my trajectory and so I can get into arguments with people and generate discussion. But those reads are often completely different from my LATE DAY ONE reads. My reads RIGHT NOW mean something. Just not the ones on PAGE 2.

2. I don't even know how to respond to that.

3. I generally subscribe to the mastina school of scumhunting, just with massive differences in style. That is, I have no problem with driving an agenda to sort people better. But honestly if you think "people pushing their agenda" is scummy you're gonna have a rough go at this event. God help you if you're reading the other games

4. Floating the idea. CDB is a rough player to read, and my gut says to townread him because of that playstyle that I've seen him use before (it's NAI). Part of it is PoE. But I'm not gonna "wagon" a player by myself.

5. My content quality is fine. If it wasn't, my teammates would've given me shit for it already, since we agreed to keep each other's bad reads/ideas in check. Your understanding of my content, however, is not fine.

Edit: oh shit you're right, I had that thought but completely forgot it

[Mathdino]

I have literally never played with you before. You opened guns blazing on me as if you had.

[Mathdino]

Because in the last game I played with you you posted a bunch of votals and numbers things to look townie. You flipped scum.

I have no fucking clue. I've flipped scum once in my entire history. I've survived as scum two other times.

I'm pretty sure I'd remember you given that you joined last September.

[Mathdino]

@Dunker: I'm frustrated because you're almost certainly town, and I want you to be a positive force instead of the lone guy caught up in "WHAT IF THE GUY PUSHING PEOPLE AROUND IS ACTUALLY SCUM". And to some extent, I'm associating you with UnaBombaH, who spent the entirety of JK9++ finding some reason to scumread me on almost the same merits. Every day. Regardless of the flip. Like the story is actually hilarious: He thought I was scum for defending scum A50/scum momo. Then A50 flipped town and figured I was scum for defending scum momo. THEN MOMO FLIPPED TOWN, MATH MUST BE SERIAL KILLER.
It basically removed Una from the game. And it pissed me off because I was fairly sure he was town the entire time, but he was making himself useless by focusing on those topics (he was never on a scum wagon IIRC). Was even more useless because he could never even properly explain why he thought I was scum. So people started scumreading him for bullshit reasons.

@Aero:
Re Creature: Creature is following other games. If he wasn't following this game, I'd be so done with his team's slot.
Re A50: Vocab misuse. Yes A50 could be lynched, but I don't think lynching him is high utility. I do think his ISO is insanely scummy (scummy not scum), but I need more time and probably a flip to lock a read on him.

[Mathdino]

In the game I wa thinking of, you(?) endgamed. I misspoke

The fuck? I won a scumgame like 3 years ago and then won a micro a few days ago...

wtf are you on about

alts are publicly posted

what in the world made you think i'm anything like mathblade, i don't even like their scumhunting methods

i literally was lovers with them in a game not long ago

[Mathdino]

if you were here for longer you'd think me and mathblade are both mathcam alts

aero thoughts on my response to you?

Edit: @Dunker: I have 0 qualms pushing people around and trying to get people I think are town to be what I think are better town players. So no, I don't see what you mean by manipulating. I wouldn't be as annoyed with you if you posted a case on me and actually explained what my scum motivation is. But the Math/A50 thing is ludicrous and honestly loses a lot of my respect. If I'm manipulating people,

what am I manipulating them to think?

@Aero: Uh, ISO me and find the part where I unvoted A50. It's kind of hard to explain. Or ISO him and ctrl+F "Dino's eyes".

[Mathdino]

Meh, well, UCV passed the test and he and Creature are both playing to their town meta. Another point is that it'd be pretty weird for the

Spam Squad

to assign UCV to scum when he's the least active player and is ML bait more than anyone else on that team.

You're correct.

Note that both he and I have talked about having some logic relating to that that we can't openly talk about due to rules.

But the rule is about what you're allowed to talk about, not about what you're allowed to think or use.

So basically, I think A50 will become easier to read as the game goes on, and not solely based on how scummy/townish he's acting in this game.

Edit: Thus far you've asked the questions "see what i mean by manipulating", "why do you have a problem with me scumreading you" (I addressed this), "i'm just some noobb right? my reads don't matter cause i'm bad?" (do you want me to respond to this...?).

So this is more evidence that you're honestly not playing a good towngame (like scum would really push a read this weak). You're simultaneously concerned about me not answering your nonexistent questions BUT ALSO about me overdefending myself from your points.

Let's talk about something else. Remind me your opinion on skirt/LLD and why?

[Mathdino]

Not usre who you're talking about. To clarify, the first paragraph was to you re: UCV, the rest before the Edit was about A50, the edit was directed at Dunker.

I'm strongly townreading Dunker and UCV's slot.

A50 I'm actually not townreading but I don't want him dead today. If we're lucky we can get an investigation check on him.
Disclaimer: If A50 contributes literally nothing all day I might policy lynch him anyway so we can get the "A50 is scum" idea dealt with.

[Mathdino]

Let's talk about something else. Remind me your opinion on skirt/LLD and why?

dude.

Edit: Okay cool. Which of your teammates think what?

[Mathdino]

Honestly yeah T-Bone is probably our best bet. I generally have a bias for people who step up and start 1v1ing me (kind of an anti-OMGUS).

idk i'm not gonna post shittons of reasoning this is a good wagon

VOTE: T-Bone
lemme go see KMD's notes for thoughts on T-Bone to make sure i'm not stupid:
"I'm lowkey TRing T-Bone going after you p12, along with Radja for unpopular opinions. That said, T-Bone would do that as scum while Radja probably wouldn't. Weak townread."
meh
i'll ask guiltylion to ISO T-Bone once he actually has time

[Mathdino]

Nope, way too long, I'm not wall to wall posting.

The fact is, I know my limits as a player and there are some people I know I'm gonna be bad at reading, especially in hilariously WIFOMy situations like yours and LLD's. So I'm not engaging. Your reads list is basically identical to mine, which is either very good or very bad (MATHDINO IS WAFFLING LOL).

But I've also been trying to find good wagons to push that don't reduce us to you vs LLD and your points on T-Bone vocalised a lot of what my gut was thinking. I can sheep my scumreads if I think they have a good chance at being right; you guys don't have to be scum together. Plus LLD could just be scum which locks you as town. I don't know enough to be able to sort that. But I do know enough to think T-Bone wagon is good and is def a better option than Binswagon, Bulbawagon, CDBwagon, and A50wagon.

NSG thinks Bins and Bulba are still good options (says Bins reacted badly) and thinks I jumped the gun on T-Bone. GL is still catching up. Thus far I've heard very few good arguments to even townlean T-Bone while I have heard good arguments for Binstown, Bulbatown, CDBtown, and A50town.

[Mathdino]

in retrospect the best argument i have for skirtscum

is that creature thinks skirt is scum :/

[Mathdino]

bored. GL is on page 8 or 9.

- guttownreads skirt off page 1, but thinks skirt's reasons for early townreading LLD are bad
- gut scumreading Elena
- 3 comments so far on how locktown dunker is and how he'd be willing to bet the game on that read (168 was his main point)
- didn't like bulba's 179 and the unsolicited overexplanation on Elena
- is eternally frustrated with always reading A50 wrong and how everything he does is baffling (he hasn't gotten to the self-vote yet)
- thinks skirt is townposting 188 for strongarming A50 and having good reads

sorrynotsorry for the pseudo-catchup multipost, this will continue

[Mathdino]

agrees with me on a bunch of things midgame, pointing out some things i didn't think
- thinks skirt is super town on page 9 (I asked what he thought of LLD then and he said she's probably a bad D1 lynch)
- not a fan of UCV (but then again who is)
- he seems to appreciate dunker significantly more than i do because every single post is obvtown
[takes a break to go play his game, dammit GL]
- says T-Bone can be lynched just for 262 because town would/should never say "I could be making this up" (I argued that people like A50 say that, and T-Bone just doesn't like my meta arguments, GL argued that he'd phrase it more assertively/aggressively as town like "you don't know my meta" instead of "I could be lying") (he also says A50 is an exception to like everything)
- GL was asking wtf the football convo was about, i want to make it clear that that was completely game irrelevant and was just cuz i'm a LFC fan and will policy lynch mann-u fans
- thinks UCV is scum by page 12, thinks vote in 276 is super shallow and mulch telling him to is an easy lie (i'm waiting for him to comment on UCV/creature meta before i take this into account) (we're also getting in a debate over differing opinions on UCV meta; i will expand on this most likely in a real life week or so cuz i think i have potentially better info)
he's read through page 14, highest confidence reads are dunker/bins/skirt-town, thinks there's scum in {Bulba, T-Bone, CDB} and that Bulba's skirt read is bad
and good night guiltylion

So all that considered, vote on T-Bone is great, and GL and I are in sync on most things. I trust his ability to townsort people so I'm gonna sheep him on skirt for now. NSG makes me wary of Bins so I'm not there yet. Team is backing me up on my "CDB is kinda weird" thought which is nice.

sheep meeeee
VOTE: T-Bone

[Mathdino]

Hey bulba can I ask why you're the one in this game
Feel free to tell me you're straight not answering

Tbh I'm only waiting on mastina for UCV who's a hilariously easy player to sort given content

I'd like to lynch T-bone and leave LLD to the PR(so)

BULBAZAK GUT READ ON BINS GO GO GO

[Mathdino]

Ebwop: PR(s)

[Mathdino]

Might as well share why I'm here:

1. We were afraid I'd get insta-NK'd in an all-vanilla game. Normals at least have the threat of protection.

2. I'm not the best on my team for townhunting and the last time I played an invention game I got speedlynched for some weird shit.

3. davesaz wanted role madness, more suited to him.

4. KMD figured Ether's game would have a better playerlist, naively thinking that Ether would attract a lot of the older more mature members of the site

So I came here by process of elimination. Hilariously, this is actually my first normal game ever!

@UCV

: I'd like Creature's input on the last 10 pages thanks.

[Mathdino]

A50+Bulba+Elena gamesolved pack it up go home boys

Elena:

Get Chara to get in here and do a full read on A50 asap.

A50 why are you still not doing anything other than talk about yourself
we've had a slew of game content since you were last here

[Mathdino]

Team Mafia is still townsided by default. 60 townies will always beat 15 scum, especially when the majority of the 15 scum didn't even wanna play scum.

The best thing town can do is ensure their teammates are reading the game, and create an atmosphere that encourages their team to read.

That said I clearly failed to do that because the other games are so shit that my team is all wound up dealing with them xD

But yeah don't JUST townread "oh my partner said that". Obviously it goes deeper. But while we're at it:

Does scum-T-Bone try to accuse KMD of lying about his read on skirt skirt based on the argument that KMD shouldn't respect skirt? That seems super reachy, and tbh that's a towntell if I'm being consistent with my own toolkit of tells.

[Mathdino]

@A50: Idk if that was autocorrect but "Infections game" is an extremely apt description xD
that said you get 0 points for fluffing around a good joke so

@All: Does anyone have reads on Smocaine at this point? The fact that he doesn't know who I am despite being in an ongoing game with me is indication that he's not getting briefed by his teammates (Unless someone is like pro-scum telling him to townslip on purpose). Chances that he'd pick scum?

Edit: @Elena: tbh you're prob getting lynched tomorrow the way this game is going

[Mathdino]

Can we not start this shit between Bulba and skirt? Cuz I just know LLD is gonna get back here and we're gonna have a 3-way rage-war.

Like I know someone's scumreading you for lacking conviction but Bulba's "I was advised to tone it down" response was way better than your "FINE NO MORE MR NICE EDDIE" shit which is obviously gonna escalate LLD.

[Mathdino]

I would take scum if we rolled scum (lol we all rolled town I stg not that you know that) if we valued winning over everything because I have a significantly better scum wr than my team afaik, but I wouldn't if we were playing more socially and for fun.

Wait ok skirt you accused me of misrepping you earlier and upon very basic overview I feel like this is not a misrep xD

Like sure maybe you decided to play more for fun but this is pretty clearly similar to what LLD said ("we all rolled town and yes I like scum most but also it'd be stupid for me to take scum and get paranoia-lynched/cop-checked").

Anyway the point is not that Smoke's teammates would've briefed me on him. I've played longer in the same game with Smocaine than I ever have with chesskid.

The point is that Smoke's SCUMBUDDIES would've said something. Cuz, yknow, daytalk enabled.

Edit: Elena, to be clear, you're townreading both of us? You didn't go into detail on anyone else; I understand not wanting to go into detail but not giving a read at all is weird.

[Mathdino]

A50+Bulba+Elena gamesolved pack it up go home boys

this was a sarcastic response to a50

it is a plausible scumteam but i am not seriously pushing a 3 man scumteam on D1

[Mathdino]

Elena I think I might understand what you're supposing, and I'm fairly sure the scenario in your head on my slot and A50's slot isn't correct.

My backing off A50 is still something I'm totally unsure on, and I'm basically taking a breather from that 1v1 to try to decrypt what he said. I think I've projected more apparent understanding of his "For Dino's eyes only" thing than I actually have. I'm giving myself more time on it.

If this is still an issue though we can obviously talk about it way later in the game.

Edit: I could trust RC's take on Elena. Keychain being town makes RC a good resource.

Radiant Cowbells

: Request full updated reads up to this point on Bins, Elena, skirt, and let's say Bulbazak.

[Mathdino]

this discussion is stupid and is pretty useless to determining each other's alignments

neither of you are intentionally lying on this, get over it

[Mathdino]

no screw that UCV, don't go down this road, you're not good at picking apart town lies from scum lies

give updated creature reads pls

[Mathdino]

only scum uses mafblack

also wait for bulba to get his team's reads on you, sounds like that entire team's behind

pagebottom so someone can put something worthwhile on the pagetop

make it count

[Mathdino]

I'm not suggesting it's Creature's game, UCV. I need to know Creature is still paying attention to the game.

You're the driver. But if Creature fell asleep in the backseat days ago, that's basically a scumclaim from your slot.

Scumhunt all you want, I'm into it and it'll help me read you individually. I actually do care about Mulch and sheep's reads if they have any input, but their level of interest in a game is not alignment indicative.

[Mathdino]

) Elena is most likely to choose scum from her team 2) eddie succesfully pocketed someone 3) Mathdino's reads seem pretty good 4) We want eddie cane pushed but I'm not 99% 5) Keychain was scummy but then he thinks he must be misreading them 6) LLD is scummy 7) Early game called LLD, skirt skirt, keychain 8) bulba is town 9) almost50 is town cause playing like open 707 10) Bins is town 11) Dunkerdoodles feels town

You'll notice that I disagree with most of these reads at this point. But I agreed with them up to this point in the game, which is nice.

[Mathdino]

For the record, Bulbazak, if skirt is scum, it's not for the reasons you suggest. That massive catchup post did further the gamestate by jumpstarting a potential T-Bone wagon, and I'm not getting the indication that that was his teammates.

If anything, I think you both, if town, have the tunnel vision case of having reads based in large part around how people react to you, talk about you, and jump on your wagons.

So find better reasons, I'm thoroughly unconvinced on your interpretation of skirt.

[Mathdino]

Lynch All Liars is one of my least favourite sayings because people rarely genuinely lie in mafia and much more often misinterpret, miscommunicate, misrepresent (themselves or others), misconstrue to fit their narratives, and straight up forget things. This happens as both alignments. With some players I consider it a towntell.

I don't want UCV going down the road of "your argument is factually wrong on multiple levels and therefore you are a lynchable liar". He can do better scumhunting than that.

Creature reads only have to do with my read on UCV's slot. I'm not planning on sheeping Creature rn.

[Mathdino]

do have to admit lying is anti-town though, so you can't fault him for that

does lying mean one is scum? 100%

Um, yes, I can entirely fault him for that. He said scum, not anti-town.
Also being bad at scumhunting is anti-town, but you don't see me trying to lynch people over it. Cuz that's also anti-town.

I've read up tot his point, I just got off work and about to go get baked so depending on how the night goes I plan on doing a big catchup post involving telling certain players to fuck off about me being bad, reads, responses, etc. I'll either do it tomorrow or in a few hours. If There's anything urgent you want from me, lmk, I'll still probably keep up with the thread.

And since people still can't see it, you can tell that Skirt's priority is in attacking those on his wagon. Not in getting reads on them. That's the mindset problem I was talking about. That's not how town approaches a wagon on them. They think "Okay, so who is likely scum attacking me?", not "Okay, how can I best dismantle the people on my wagon?".

Thanks, this helps me understand what you're saying. Will take that into account with team when it's regular re-evaluation time.

[Mathdino]

There's no harming in swapping out. I'm thinking about swapping out in the middle of the night to give a buddy a 2-day break from mafia. Main thing stopping me is I actually do like this game a lot.

Haven't actually floated this past them yet so I should prob do that xD

[Mathdino]

Hey Bins, can I get SlappyKrew's and implosion's takes on this game?

Specifically on T-Bone and Eddie, and possibly LLD if they think they can read her.

[Mathdino]

did he actually ISO people

i'm pretty sure he's online

[Mathdino]

me and my team are following them

[Mathdino]

@A50: i mean i also claimed VT late in the day in JK9++

but why the hell are you revealing it right now

do you really expect to get shot at this rate, i thought you were just WIFOMing the NK

edit: i have not read the above post

[Mathdino]

Okay T-Bone first of all

Also whose team has Something_Smart on it? Cuz that's the guy that can read me. Only person I know in this tournament who's caught me as scum before.

sheepsaysmeep caught my scumgame (only after I speedmislynched him though). Creature played a loooong mini with town-me. I'd be surprised if he ever misread me.

These are the only posts I'm aware of that referred to players outside the game reading me. I don't know if you've ISO'd me but I'm actually fishing for players outside the game to read OTHER people much more. If there are more quotes of this nature, let me know.

Aneninen vigshot me as a cop-confirmed VT once. He thought I knew too much and was town leadering a scary amount.
I only ever played with Espeonage in a marathon game, I'm not surprised he doesn't remember me.
wgeurts probably remembers me but that was a long time ago.
If you want to get Mathdino-meta-backed reads, meta me recently. Or have wgeurts do it I guess; IIRC he's a good metadiver universally.

I don't like to lynch the player scrutinising me the hardest; there's often the chance that I'm biased and that player can help keep bad ideas in check. I'm not surprised you believe skirt's sincerity more, because I don't have much more to contribute; I read his post, and I'm sold. I have a wagon I'm actually comfortable with, I don't need to do early-game fumbling around in the dark anymore.

T-Bone:

If you're gonna respond to anything respond to this. Please give exact examples of me fishing for townreads, because that is literally not something I remember doing this game outside of those couple posts.
I'd like you to answer this because I'm trying to evaluate the sincerity of your push on me.

[Mathdino]

a50 why do you not want to play this game

like is there so much stopping you from swapping out with momo or tora for example

[Mathdino]

how did i not get a word you said to me

like what specifically is your issue with this game other than bulba scumreading you

i don't even think that's a tunnel

like you could very easily get out of this by just doing your own thing (i'm confused why you're not trying to get out of this as either alignment)

are you only able to function when no one is scumreading you

[Mathdino]

a50 did you read jester nightless or chill mafia

[Mathdino]

are you aware of my meta of deathtunneling self-voters, a50

[Mathdino]

LOLLL

354. I wanted people to back me up

ON UCV

. I didn't give as hit about their read on me! I wanted to make sure I wasn't being stupid with the UCV/Creature tell. I've been incredibly open about that lately.
356. I specifically wanted mastina's take on UCV because I know she knows Creature's meta. I have very little faith in mastina's understanding of my meta given that I just got back from hiatus.
385. ...yet again I wanted your team's take

ON UCV

. Espeonage knows Creature so I figured he'd see where I'm going. I wasn't sure if Aneninen knew him.

mastina:
281. I asked Bulba exactly when mastina had given her input. I just wanted to know if mastina had actively been following this game or gave her thoughts early.
565. I asked RC's thoughts on Elena.

The two times I mentioned players that I think can read me are once as a random comment early (I naively hoped S_S would follow this game), and the second time because UCV

already said sheep/Creature are townreading me

. I argued that sheep/Creature are objectively better at reading me than UCV is because sheep actually caught me as scum.

By all means, dude, try again.

[Mathdino]

i mean i assume you're generally aware of this site's meta of deathtunneling self-voters

[Mathdino]

i honestly don't think anyone here or anyone on my team has the knowledge to properly read A50's shit

another reason i'm very much wanting

Chara's

take on it
maybe throw in bulba's team, S_S, RC, and mayyyybe creats

[Mathdino]

pretty sure NSG doesn't care
GuiltyLion refuses to try
KMD says he'd honestly be cool just giving you what you want since you're VT claiming and not helping anyway
davesaz isn't reading other games

[Mathdino]

you have no idea how much i did not want this swap

[Mathdino]

honestly bins's entire reads list is nearly identical to mine except CDB's in the lynchpool, UCV is town, and i'm not even trying to read LLD

transcend please don't blow this game up

[Mathdino]

Honestly if Math is scum my readslist flips around lmao

wait are you actually sheeping my reads then

[Mathdino]

why does your reads list flip if i flip scum

[Mathdino]

guiltylion hard disagrees
he's catching up now

i can't read that guy

i honestly doubt you can

i'm waiting on certain people from other teams who are not in this game to get their shit together and find someone who can read the people here

[Mathdino]

write me an actual case on CDB scum with quotes

[Mathdino]

fuck you, you do case

now write me paragraphs on why CDB is scum

[Mathdino]

Updates from my teammates on today:
[url=viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74375]UCV Scumgame just ended[url], someone do something with this.
GL likes Radja's 363 but it isn't necessarily AI
NSG likes T-Bone for being polite/mature >.>
GL thinks 384 by T-Bone is especially scummy; he thinks TB's logic on a comparison between my and skirt's logic seems contrived (I am not factchecking him on this FTR)
GL guffawed at A50 saying he never AtEs and strongly dislikes that he has to try to read A50, also hates 416 for not interacting with any wagons
GL wants me to lynch UCV for 397, I refused
GL backtracked on T-Bone thinking that T-Bone picking a big fight with me over KMD might actually be townish
GL thinks CDB's 428 isn't fakable by scum

From page 22, GL's summary is:
{Bins, Dunker, Keychain} townbloc with optional Transcend, CDB, Radja depending on Bins/Keychain's approval. Wants to lynch UCV. LLD and Aero not good lynches because they'll show up stronger lategame. Says T-Bone can be kept around for now, he's fencing on this. Not comfortable on Elena, Bulba.
And lastly, he's in love with Bins's reads list with a few people bumped up a bit.

So the impression I'm getting is "fuck this game everyone's town". And then they all lived happily ever after?

I think I could lynch Elena over T-Bone at this point. Not sure.

Looks like a lot is waiting on Aero/LLD coming back and mastina actually reading this game.

[Mathdino]

do a joint ISO of me and UCV
figure out the scumtell/towntell i'm looking for

then also figure out if UCV is scum

[Mathdino]

ucv is town. is there any wagon that was on him at some point? bet scum hopped on that like cake because he's such a giant fucking lynchbait.

the fuck? you posted this 90 seconds after i asked you that question

exactly how did you reach this conclusion without having read the game enough to know if there were ever votes on him

[Mathdino]

because i'm trying to sort players and counteract my biases, gotcha

davesaz and GL both think UCV is scum and I'm pretty sure NSG is gonna lean in that direction (she thinks my creature-based tell is bullshit)

UCV is tough to sort when he's basically not even here outside of responding to me

so you sort him

and if you wanna go after me for discussing things, find my scum motivation in doing so

[Mathdino]

transcend, this isn't ether's game.

this gets you lynched by this playerlist.

if you want to contribute, please actually do so: i've given multiple opportunities and topics

[Mathdino]

I haven't decided yet whether I feel his tone is hollow or not. I'm leaning towards genuine, because Skirt is trying to do a lot of the same things, and he is way more hollow in his convictions. So, I don't know if that is comparison bias or what.

But like, you're feeling off about Dino. Does it bother you that Skirt is mimicking his approach in a lot of ways? Let's back up...do you see that at all?

sup bins analyse this quote for me pls
cuz this don't make no sense

[Mathdino]

I was going over the rest of the game and arguing with GL/NSG about UCV. dave popped in and said he modded scum-UCV in Open 699 (I don't have a link), I asked him to look over UCV's ISO here since it's tiny. dave was like yyyyyep that's scummy, I have a few towngames where he actually participated with opinions and questions. Link 1 Link 2.

So yeah he read UCV only cuz I asked him to.

I'm guessing UCV's meta has shifted a lot over this past month. Will check NSG's link later on.

[Mathdino]

My experience with scum-UCV is more recent but it's also from a micro. Linkkk

Seems like he's going full tryhard that game.

[Mathdino]

bins i'm gonna need more reasoning than your gut to vote someone GL insists is town

[Mathdino]

For what it's worth Bulba, I didn't see any problem with your posts at all so far, but I appreciate the consideration/self-awareness. See you Monday. (altho I'm honestly not holding my breath on mastina; if anyone else on your team knows UCV/Creature [Ginngie??] that works too)

Bins I think you missed 734.

[Mathdino]

Even if it's generally super unfair to call V/LA/activity/replacements scummy...

Are you getting the same townmindedness from Bulba's last post that I am?

[Mathdino]

If everyone is null-town, we're lynching the players most likely to pick scumslots from their teams.

Unfortunately that's LLD/A50, who, if town, are both assets (A50 much less tbh).

So I guess it's on them to find actual solid scumreads?

Edit: lowkey getting tired of making some snarky response when you engage me dunker
all you have to do is rely on my ISO instead of your memory when making statements about me xD

i've never scumread/leaned: you, Keychain, UCV (my teammates disagree but I'm keeping this), Radja, and Aeronaut (who could be town for not being here)
some people i'd like to be in the townbloc but i can't defend as well or my team is in conflict: Bins, and team also likes CDB

[Mathdino]

Convince us skirt's slot is town?

Also a reads list would be nice, cuz a lot of your reads are coming somewhat out of left-field.

[Mathdino]

You and Eddie must get along real well in your team chat.

[Mathdino]

so you tell me why eddie was put in this game

[Mathdino]

I'd rather not talk more about that on the basis that this isn't exactly a private thread.

[Mathdino]

have you considered not voteparking on bins then

or at least writing a bins case if you actually want to lynch there

also as much as i'm into this meta team mafia discussion

i'm not just gonna flip a player in this game to help me in the tournament as a whole sorry

Edit: okay screw you guys

you have 0 right to complain about this game if you're not gonna push anything

[Mathdino]

we're not flipping anyone until bulbazak/mastina come back on monday

and until aero, CDB, and LLD catch up

[Mathdino]

only assholes care about

bowel

movements tho
by definition

but seriously transcend stop complaining and stop telling people to stfu if you have no good ideas of your own

[Mathdino]

no one has provided me with reasons not to lynch t-bone

and no one is really pushing for any wagons

eddie cane had a t-bone case but it looks like everyone skimmed it so

[Mathdino]

i would be willing to policy lynch transcend

hey transcend can you ask eddie for some good cases on the players in this game and then copy/paste them in thanks
disclaimer to elli this is sarcasm i am not advocating for breaking rules

and yeah i could lynch elena

someone find me scumbuddies for bins if bins is scum

[Mathdino]

Like she makes a ton of "I don't really care" or trying to act carefree posts. but her votes have been really really bad and when it comes to legit content it's just a bit of sheeping I haven't seen bins try to really gamesolve much at all.

urh.

i think this is just false and incorrect and i’m going to call you out on that.
i also don’t think anyone has said i’m lynch bait? maybe

i definitely remember people or people's teams (maybe mine) calling you lynchbait

FWIW i agree that you've actually posted substantially, just not in a way that elena likes (i have gotten in very similar arguments with elena and t-bone)

so like her take on you is wrong but you could still be scum lol

imma have KMD look over your ISO

Edit: lol'd, remind me who your team is

[Mathdino]

you might recall me parking a vote on bins for like 5 pages and no one giving a shit despite bins not doing anything at the time

no one has any resistance to any wagons in this game, that's why we're all having trouble reading people

but on top of that no one really wants to wagon anyone

[Mathdino]

elena i assume your math/LLD/bins team relies on me sheeping LLD

and then taking control of the game and bins sheeping all my reads?

[Mathdino]

because not to be self-aggrandizing or anything

but i've literally been the one setting the "popular stances"

along with my team i guess but i've forced my team into playing like a 5p hydra so it carries more accuracy and weight

edit: the fuck i'm not just gonna VFR bins does this look like town of salem

edit2: you just accused bins of sheeping all the popular stances, see above

[Mathdino]

i have no idea anymore

i've repeatedly asked for people to hit up their teammates and look through a few people in this game and give reasons

either no one has done this, or no one can read A50 out of all 70 people in this tournament

i'm waiting on a read from chara

[Mathdino]

1. don't victimise yourself, i didn't want you to claim at all
unless you mean in other games
in which case you know full well voting people up for claims is very different in a closed normal than it is in an open breakable setup

2. the game isn't even messed up, it's literally just the active people complaining and not giving reasons for their shit
while a bunch of people are on breaks from the internet
with the vast majority of players not asking their team for the reads i've been requesting over and over because wow i'm not a perfect scumhunter

Edit: i am willing to sheep keychain and her team tbh if that's the closest to high-skill confirmed town we get

Edit2: A50, Team Mafia has been shown to be townsided through the use of teammates
i hashed this out with my team, we agreed that we would back each other up and play devil's advocate on shit
it's not that hard to hit up a teammate and be like "yo look through this ISO i can't read this shit"

and i always modify my playstyle/strategy to accommodate the type of game i'm in

Edit3: STOP IT A50
GUILTYLION IS LITERALLY SPAMMING ME ON DISCORD TELLING ME NOT TO VOTE UP BINS AND GET A CLAIM

[Mathdino]

p-edit - the fact you can't see that there are other ways to go about this is mind-boggling. This game really isn't that messed up. We need a wagon, I agree, but you've been vote parked on me for reasons I don't even know how to respond to? I still can't hash out what it is I've done that's putting you off.

Question: You a VT? Just yes or no.

NO ONE IS CLAIMING

[Mathdino]

GuiltyLion wants an actual case on Bins from someone so he can respond to it and look it over. Says he played Bins-scum not long ago and this feels super different.

He's active too so if anyone actually read his input I can relay thoughts back and forth.

Edit: Elena, I read a lot of TM2015 shit

edit guys stop multiposting so quickly

[Mathdino]

GuiltyLion's metaread justification is that even though one meta sample isn't necessarily good, he agrees with almost every thought Bins has produced this game (to the point where he sends me thoughts and then Bins verbalises them a page later) to an extent that he never experienced when he had to play against scum-her.

Edit: Por que no trust the lion?

[Mathdino]

For reference, A50's fantastic Binscase. Based on lurking and beetlejuicing basically.

Btw, I don't understand the TRs on Bins/Elena. Care to explain? (They're both good Scum players).

First mention of Bins in my ISO.

TR on Bins is gut. I played with scum-her before.

So did I! (How soon can you forget?)

Second time I speak about her.

k scum is hiding. Any ideas?

Off the top of my head, and without any specific explanation? Try Elena+Bins+Smocaine for a Scum team. Feel free to replace Elena with Aeronaut if you must (but only because you think Elena's Town), so let's say Bins for starters.

Can we wagon Bins, please?

Third and fourth, then I voted her when Dino agreed to wagon her.

So, I never trusted Bins from the start, and she has been content to lurk it. I PoE'd the Scum team down to 3 that include her, and -surprise surprise- she beetljuiced when she got voted.

Feel free to join the wagon.

P.S. She also didn't see when Dino said he regrets not seeing the possibility she was Scum still, and is referencing his initial statement on her being likely Town.

Conclusion: Bins is Scum lurking and skimming, only to pop up when necessary.

@Elena: Except it does help. This is like you saying that none of your reads should matter at all to me because you might be scum. Uh... no... I just know Chara is the best resource we've got when it comes to reading A50, SCUM OR NOT, and this being a pseudo-hydra game it might even help me read your slot.

So to be clear you're actively refusing to get your teammate's input on this right?

edit: what the fuck
i have not read the above post hang on

[Mathdino]

Transcend wins the award of the longest post in this game that contributes absolutely nothing to it!!! Congratulations!!!!!!

And you wonder why I'm willing to policy lynch you.

Edit: @Elena: I'm aware of that. Doesn't matter, still want their input. Scum-you could just make shit up, but Scum-Chara is gonna be held to a higher standard due to actually knowing how A50 thinks.

[Mathdino]

oh ok i missed that lol

Gotcha. In that case I'm dismissing A50/Bins as TvT unless someone has a good case on Bins scum motivation.

[Mathdino]

So I was gonna ask this but I forgot

We both want to know what you think the scum motivation would be in having me either bullshit a GL townread or have GL come in and bullshit a townread himself on Bins.

More broadly I'm curious to what extent you think scum would actually lie in TM about what their teammates would think/say. Again, when you have a 5 person team and some of you much better at reading certain players, the expectation for airtight reasoning is much greater. It would be stupid to lie. I actually don't even expect the scum in this game to have their teammates make shit up.

Edit: more content:
Yeah okay so GL is basically asking if you think I'm scum with Bins or if you think I'm scum buddying townBins. Because unless you want to definitively say Bins/Dino is a team, you have to trust GL's logic on this and trust that he wouldn't just make it all up.

Edit: Hey Transcend you have no standing on which to accuse me of not playing the game

[Mathdino]

And our point then is that unless you believe Bins/Dino, you should be believing in Bins-town right now regardless of my role PM.

The biggest source of my iffiness on Elena was the reduction of information flow for this game. Nullification of sources of info. Meta, and now the utility of trusting other people's qualified teammates.

Trend continues.

Like I hate to do that thing where I'm scumreading people opposing me and my view of the game

but would anyone be opposed to an Elena wagon?

[Mathdino]

@Elena: On a more playstyle-based note, I'm at least putting thoughts out there to be refuted in the first place, while your ISO is 50% tearing other people's content down, 25% slapping unexplained reads on people, and 25% explaining bad reads period. I'm specifically explaining as much as I can from KMD, GL, and myself, so we have more things to consider when generating reads and asking questions.

@Radja: Uh, I tried to lolwagon Bins, then skirt came in and did a massive post including why T-Bone is scum, then he and Bulba got in a slapfight over skirt's quality as a player, then skirt and Transcend had to swap out because Transcend doesn't understand the rules of this tournament, and now all the active players are shitting on the gamestate and each other while the inactive players catch up.

@A50: NO NO NON ON ONO NO NONO

[Mathdino]

Is there anyone you trust in this game?

[Mathdino]

Skirt Dunker
Channel Bulbazak,
Radja,
T-bone Aeronaut Smocaine UC Voyager,
Keychain
Bins LLD

Almost50 Mathdino

Because this reads list is for the most part upside down, and I've seen little to no indication of you actually working with the people you're townreading.

It would help a lot if you did a reads list. Or if you're lazy, reasons on any of {skirt, CDB, Bulba, T-Bone, Keychain, Bins, LLD, Dino} would be good.

Also I looked through your ISO and you claimed that no one's given reasons for scum-T-Bone... which is literally false given that skirt (your superobvtownie) wrote a spoilered minicase on him, and I parroted GL's opinions on scum-T-Bone into the thread not long after.

Would you like me to dig them up and/or reexplain T-Bone scumread?

[Mathdino]

Transcend I swear to god.

If your post adds nothing to the game, don't post it.

If you don't think other people's posts add anything to the game, too bad. No one here is ready for the lynch except you and like 1 or 2 other people.

This is not Mafia Universe. I don't want to bring it to the deadline any more than you do. But people are on V/LA and you're basically arguing for disrespecting that and quicklynching without them.

[Mathdino]

Oh please.

Just to reiterate

Radja is solidly town
Keychain is very town
Math i lean as town but has pingy posts.
It is a gamble but i think a50 is town
Ucv is town

Still don't like channel at all. Tbone my team collectively srs. Bins i kinda sr. Elena i kinda sr

Lld nullish

Was leaning town on smoc but need more

Bulbashit prob town but my mates disagree.

Who else is in the game

Your reads are basically a copy of skirt's.

who wants to interact with the doggo (:

engage doggo im trying to get into this game it's not working

And then you ask to be handheld into the game WHICH I TRIED TO DO BY THE WAY and you ignored me and any attempts at 1 on 1 discussion with you.

If you want to ostracise yourself from the decision making process, go ahead, but don't shit on everyone else while you do it. The problem right now is people not being up to speed on the game and you cluttering up the thread doesn't help that.

Stop it.

[Mathdino]

Doesn't matter. I solve LyLos with VCA to deal with from D1s. When 1/3 of the playerlist doesn't have any content we can deal with, D2 is gonna suck.

D1 quicklynches are almost always town losses.

[Mathdino]

Real hilarious calling me a moron when Eddie was vote swapping, overanalysing, casing, and drawing out the day.
Real funny.
Let Eddie play for you dude.

@Keychain: yo I'd be down with lynching Elena, I think I mentioned this earlier, I'm just not sure how many people would even commit to that

Edit: VOTE: Elena

[Mathdino]

I interacted with him heavily in the early game, because I wanted to decide for myself whether he was using his mafia-theory and meta-hunting talk as legitimate tools, or hiding behind them because when you are a meta player it is very easily to be a "meta-player" as scum. I know meta-players like to say that they can't fake it, but I don't buy it. I was leaning town early on Math actually, despite the issues that I brought up, because he was the counterweight to Skirt, who I feel is our strongest candidate for scum. Obviously, the KMD thing is where I started to think otherwise, because I felt like KMD's reads had no context in the gamestate. They looked fake to me. Finally, his 180 on tone when he decided that he could try to lynch me...makes me think that was a change of heart out of convenience, to try to get a player lynched who is giving him a hard time. That's how it looks to my eyes. If Math is scum, that explains everything. (If Math is town, then I have no explanation as to why he's suddenly shifted his tone). It even gave Skirt pause, which surprised me.

Okay dude couple things because I'm not

not

responding to this

1. I'm not a meta-player, I've never been a meta-player, I personally use meta as a weak tool that primarily helps with understanding playstyle (null-tells). My comments at the beginning of the game aren't based on other games, they're based on reading through GTKAS and shit. I did this for

every player I could dig info on

. Not all of my teammates wanted to use it, but I did in my game because that info is better than absolute nothing. Pretending to be in a no-information stage when we weren't would be completely antithetical to how I play this game.

2. I don't have anything to say if you think KMD's reads looked fake when after skimming 2 pages at 2 AM. Well actually I do:
- KMD is a MUCH better scum player than I am, it's hilarious that you think you can read my slot better off of KMD than off of me
- Since that initial "My teammate read 2 pages" post, I've posted tons of KMD/GL thoughts that you haven't responded to.

3. What 180 in tone are you talking about?

[Mathdino]

Like you guys are literally arguing that you can't see town-me using an extra tool to my advantage because you disagree with the tool's effectiveness???

Like bro after 36 pages I agree that this amount of content beats a couple meta-ideas but it's like none of the 3 of you actually ISO'd me trying to sort players beyond meta-ing people and asking for assists.

I'm not going to play this game with my hands tied behind my back.

And if the crux of your case is tonereading you're gonna have some real issues. Even moreso if you think you can toneread but also think meta is shit

[Mathdino]

He's just very aggro on anyone that talks against him and buddies anyone who agrees with him (I talked about this before) and I dislike his reactions to the little bit of pressure he's got.

I mean. Accurate. Yeah.

Keep in mind tho Dunker is literally my strongest townread. I generally much prefer being able to work with my townreads than not, and it annoys me when they drive into Paranoia City. Because there's always the 1 or 2 players that immediately start scumreading me when I take off like this in games. It's not helpful in getting votes together.

What do you think my agenda is here? To stay alive and power through the game as scum leader? Or something else?

[Mathdino]

imo he's straight up copying eddie's reads