Open 643: Kill All Townies! (Game Over)

[JaeReed]

VOTE: Almost50

Jumpin' on that wagon.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: King of squirrels
He didn't make his claim sound like a joke and more like it's a matter of fact. +Old good guts

How do you know about the King of Squirrels thing?

VOTE: KuroiXHF

For pretending to be Mafia.

Why do you think he's pretending to be mafia instead of actually being mafia?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: LQ

@Bella the exchange between House and Lickety last page... Scum theatre? By which I mean do you think they could be of the same faction?

[JaeReed]

@Ranger has there been any change in your reads since last time?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: LQ

@Bella the exchange between House and Lickety last page... Scum theatre? By which I mean do you think they could be of the same faction?

Why do you suspect we'd be scum of the same faction, specifically? Is it because neither one of us share your scum PT?

Funny. Because that seemed staged to me. Hence "scum theatre". You weren't the one I was asking, either. If I wanted your snark I would have said something like "hey house find something inane to make a jab at me for".

[JaeReed]

VOTE: LQ

@Bella the exchange between House and Lickety last page... Scum theatre? By which I mean do you think they could be of the same faction?

Why do you suspect we'd be scum of the same faction, specifically? Is it because neither one of us share your scum PT?

Funny. Because that seemed staged to me. Hence "scum theatre". You weren't the one I was asking, either. If I wanted your snark I would have said something like "hey house find something inane to make a jab at me for".

Right, we coordinated an argument pregame, you know... before I actually replaced in.

You're so samrt.

Staged /= pregame co-ordinated.

I'm obviously not smart if I have to defer to another player for an opinion. Still haven't asked yours and this exchange is pointless. Feel free to keep jabbing. I'm too tired to respond anyway and I don't wanna clog this up more.

[JaeReed]

Lol I wish I could vote you twice.

@Ranger can you give me the summary of why smithereens is so high please? Or still too early?

[JaeReed]

I would say you are banking an awful lot on your reputation.

I bank on my reputation every game, so explicitly so, yes.
(I mean, burden of proficiency's still a fallacy, but that doesn't mean I refuse to use my reputation to my advantage.)

Well, then I suppose if that's the case I have all the more reason to Scum read you for relying on your reputation to substantiate your incorrect read on me.

Alright, how's this. I'd say it was originally a mild dislike of your RVS choice. You were the first one to not join the Almost flash-wagon, and instead chose to vote the person who started it. I'm not sure what that indicates, exactly, but it obviously indicated something to Ranger, and I'm inclined to trust her on RVS reads because it's kinda a thing she is good at.

I've thought about it multiple times and the only things I can come up with I'm personally not sure mean much either way. Basically, I'm thinking a subconscious thing where you have something to hide so you don't want to join the pile up. I'm not Ranger, but that's my guess as to why you were so low on the list.

I doubt it was anything solid and definitely a read where if you were town you could have elevated yourself. When you asked about her lists in a scummy as fuck way that showed little more than self preservation I'd say that changed the strength of the read. This was where you pinged me, but I figured it could be nothing, so whatever. Then your reaction to hiplop's vote had me wanting to vote you. 102 reads as "wah I got caught for what I think are the wrong reasons".

Then you proceeded to try to debunk all of Kuroi's scumhunting. Not just on yourself but on others. I don't see a way you're flipping town, mate. You failed the test.

In fact, the back and forth with you and House might even be you trying to stop Dixc from being caught "for the wrong reasons" as your buddy.

[JaeReed]

So if we didn't coordinate it pregame, how else could we have "staged it"?

Go on... I'll wait.

This is something that will actually contribute I think so I will answer.

I was thinking that because you both know each other is your scumbuddy it was a heads up from LQ to unvote and drop that line of reasoning to free yourself up to try to push a Ranger lynch. The back and forth just feels off to me and like a "we don't have daychat but mate drop that it's looking bad" kinda thing. The other possibility is that he was getting you off his buddy.

I've never been scum so I wouldn't know for sure. It just felt like it could be a forced distancing interaction where you realized what was happening and you both played it a bit.

I still want to know Bella's opinion because damnit, I want my IC and I want her to not be scum.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: chip butty

Which of his two posts read scummy to you and why?

Neither. It was a random placeholder RVS vote. I picked him because his name stood out.

You're trying too hard.

VOTE: house

Why do you have a problem with him "trying too hard"? Why is that scum indicative?

Also, what are your thoughts on LQ?

[JaeReed]

Actually, it was a question to Bella. Not an accusation to you.

And yes, you certainly could stage theatre with someone without use of scum chat for it. All it takes is you both knowing you're buddies and need to distance. I don't see why you think you need scum chat for that. I also did say that it could have been that you're not of the same faction and he's peeling you off his partner.

Point is though, it wasn't a question to you but you were eager to attempt to shut it down so I couldn't get the opinion of the person I wanted. If it's that stupid then why bother before you see what the other person's response is?

[JaeReed]

I think Jae has the right answer to this: It's not rocket science to follow a scum partner's lead, even without daytalk. It's not a "stupid" premise, and your calling it such looks like an overreaction. Also, Jae is right to point out that you seemed quick to jump onto his question to Bella to hose this down.

For the sake of argument, let's say that scum CAN stage conversations even without Daytalk. This brings us back to your question about why Jae assumed staging to be between scum of the same faction. If staging IS possible, it is obvious it can only be between scum of the same faction, right?

@Jae: Curious - why did you ask the question about LQ's exchange with House on that page, but not his earlier exchange on the same page with the "other House", aka Kuroi?

I didn't find that exchange to feel off, and didn't have any doubts about it that I felt a second opinion could help with. It felt like a town Kuroi reaching out to LQ in case he was town. Reads town vs scum there. I was already scumreading LQ and the exchange didn't do anything to make me think "huh, he might be town" whereas Kuroi's side seemed pretty town.

[JaeReed]

Ever wonder what a contrived answer looks like? One answering for someone else and not themselves even?

I would say you are banking an awful lot on your reputation.

I bank on my reputation every game, so explicitly so, yes.
(I mean, burden of proficiency's still a fallacy, but that doesn't mean I refuse to use my reputation to my advantage.)

Well, then I suppose if that's the case I have all the more reason to Scum read you for relying on your reputation to substantiate your incorrect read on me.

Alright, how's this. I'd say it was originally a mild dislike of your RVS choice. You were the first one to not join the Almost flash-wagon, and instead chose to vote the person who started it. I'm not sure what that indicates, exactly, but it obviously indicated something to Ranger, and I'm inclined to trust her on RVS reads because it's kinda a thing she is good at.

Baseless and NAI. How do you know that is what Ranger was thinking about? Assumption much? And you don't know Rangers alignment (unless you are teamed) so your point about trusting them is completely moot.

I've thought about it multiple times and the only things I can come up with I'm personally not sure mean much either way. Basically, I'm thinking a subconscious thing where you have something to hide so you don't want to join the pile up. I'm not Ranger, but that's my guess as to why you were so low on the list.

This is all sorts of bad. Saying there is something in my subconscious that I am hiding (no idea how you dreamed that one up), role fishing, and again assuming what Ranger thinks.

I doubt it was anything solid and definitely a read where if you were town you

could have

elevated yourself. When you asked about her lists in a scummy as fuck way that showed little more than self preservation I'd say that changed the strength of the read. This was where you pinged me, but I figured it could be nothing, so whatever. Then your reaction to hiplop's vote had me wanting to vote you. 102 reads as "wah I got caught for what I think are the wrong reasons".

Why is it Scummy to ask someone about what looks like a reads list that is vague and uninformative? And I really hate could have arguments because they can be contrived into anything. And what makes you so confident that I am Scum? because I would use that argument that people are reading me based on false premise as either alignment.

Then you proceeded to try to debunk all of Kuroi's scumhunting. Not just on yourself but on others. I don't see a way you're flipping town, mate. You failed the test.

In fact, the back and forth with you and House might even be you trying to stop Dixc from being caught "for the wrong reasons" as your buddy.

Actually, you failed the test for coming up with reasons on why I am scum out of thin air that are not even based on what I said, but your own contrived interpretation of what I said.

I debunked Kurio's Scum hunting.. ok was I misrepping them like you are doing with me?

There is no way you can be that confident in your read on me at this stage of the game, try again.

In bold, or, ya know, it could be the reasons I gave, but I don't expect people with confirmation bias to get that.

Responding to this is really not a good idea but eh. Might clarify stuff for the rest of the town.

I trust Ranger to nail at least one scumteam unless she's purposely misleading us with the intent to tell her team her true reads tonight (and it has to be tonight because I am sure she is dying tonight regardless of alignment). I'm inclined to think she's not misleading us, given that you've done a pretty good job obv!scumming it up from the moment you asked about her lists in a scummy way. You've reacted poorly to everything from then.

It's not scummy to ask about her lists. In fact, if you were town and asked about it you probably would have gotten bumped up. There are townie and scummy ways to ask Ranger about her lists. If you were town then we wouldn't be having this conversation. You're scum, though, and I believe I read somewhere I shouldn't talk to scum because it makes people stop caring about the lynch, so this will be the last response to you.

Also, not role fishing. You're scum. That's what you tried (and failed) to hide. Don't see how in any universe you could stretch your being scum into me role fishing by saying you were trying to hide it.

I very specifically said it's my guess and I'm not Ranger. I'm nowhere near the scumhunting genius that she is. That said, I know she encourages guessing in order to grow as a player. I'm not doing this for your or even her benefit, I'm doing this for mine and to see how far off the mark I am when/if she does explain it.

There was no misrepping here. There was my interpretation of Ranger's original read on you, and then the acknowledgement that you failed her list test and proceeded to scum it up after that when you got heat for it.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: jaE

Hey hey

Hey hey Jury's still out on you, mate. Don't know what a non scum IC hippylop looks like yet. Don't have anything specifically I want to prod you about at this stage. Sorry for asking Bella and not you but I have a feeling she's townish <3 You can still try to IC me if you like! My trust for you right now is comparable to my thoughts on how good you are at CSing

[JaeReed]

VOTE: LQ

@Bella the exchange between House and Lickety last page... Scum theatre? By which I mean do you think they could be of the same faction?

Nope, I kinda know a bit about House's style because he used to play a tonne of newbies when I started: I don't think this was quite scum theatre. However, I disagree totally with house's rebuttal that it couldn't be because he'd replaced in: someone else said it's not hard to follow a lead and I'm 100% behind that. also, the same faction thing isn't a given: I played a mutliball where my scum partner, bbt, and thor, from the other team, were shitting up the thread very well without being on the same team!

To clarify, you don't think this is scum of the same faction and they could be opposing factions, or you do not think House is scum?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: chip butty

Which of his two posts read scummy to you and why?

Neither. It was a random placeholder RVS vote. I picked him because his name stood out.

You're trying too hard.

VOTE: house

This is bad, pista. it was late for rvs and this is an over reaction to a fairly basic question.

I really think house is scum

can you give me like, three reasons for this? attacks i've seen on him have been weak as.

@Ranger when you get back... What did you think of these parts of Bella's post?

Anyone who is not LQ, House, or Bella can weigh in too I guess, just specifically interested in Ranger's read of it considering she has both Bella and House low on her list.

[JaeReed]

Hey pista, do you have any other thoughts?

Jae, I've said a bunch of times I'm townreading House. Sadly I'm not as invested in Ranger's reads as you

Ngghhh I really want to respond to you as a person but I can't because I don't know for sure you're the same alignment as me Q.Q

I'm not as invested as you might think. I think she's wrong on you, for one.

And no, my scumread of LQ is not based off Ranger's scumread. When I sheep I state that I'm sheeping. I'm sure you've read at least some of Fractals.

[JaeReed]

I was thinking that because you both know each other is your scumbuddy it was a heads up from LQ to unvote and drop that line of reasoning to free yourself up to try to push a Ranger lynch.

So, where's my Ranger push, then?

Sorry I thought I responded to this. Originally yes I thought you could be aligned with LQ. Given the rebuttal by Bella and the fact that LQ peeled you off DixC, I have doubts that you could be aligned with him.

I'll admit you haven't pushed on Ranger like I originally thought you were freeing yourself up to do.

[JaeReed]

Alignment or faction, jae? ;P

Your first line and your second seem to contradict each other, though.

lq is legit scummy all on his own, but his ongoing thing was...weird.

Alignment, babe. I have a slight townread on you but I'm not sure as in the same case as hippylop. I've only had you as scum!IC but I feel like you might be town here. It's harder for me right now because it's my first multiball. I'm reading you based off tone and gut and the fact that I plain want you to be town with me. I think Ranger is wrong on her read of you because of the

way

you stated that she's wrong on her read of you. So again, tone and gut. Just seemed like a "Damnit she's scumreading me again when I'm town" thing.

What ongoing thing are you talking about?

[JaeReed]

I was thinking that because you both know each other is your scumbuddy it was a heads up from LQ to unvote and drop that line of reasoning to free yourself up to try to push a Ranger lynch.

So, where's my Ranger push, then?

Sorry I thought I responded to this. Originally yes I thought you could be aligned with LQ. Given the rebuttal by Bella and the fact that LQ peeled you off DixC, I have doubts that you could be aligned with him.

I'll admit you haven't pushed on Ranger like I originally thought you were freeing yourself up to do.

Isn't this where you're supposed to say that I didn't push her because you called me out on it?

??

If I wanted to confbias sure. Your alignment is still in the air for me. I know that I tend towards disliking your style of scumhunting as town from reading games where you were town in. I tend to scumread you when you're town anyway, so it's hard for me to judge your alignment.

LQ is obv!scum for me so I'm looking for associates to determine who could be partnered with him. Hence the prodding of you potentially being partners with him.

[JaeReed]

Haha yeah, tbf ranger's put me low on her town reads when I'm town when she's town and scum, though! So it isn't indicative of much.

I'd've rather been scum with you. I'm still not sure you aren't.

Lq's defense to me was 'creature is scum bc of ongoing and ongoings is why ranger thinks i'm scum' which was...weird.

Is that admittance to being scum and thinking I'm on the other team?

In all seriousness, though, you know my town game. I'd say you know pretty well when I'm being transparent. I think I'm pretty obv!scum as scum, so I'd hate to be aligned with anyone I actually knew because I'd feel like I'm letting them down by being the way I am. I'd feel terrible to be aligned with you or Ranger as scum and would probably flat out tell you to bus me pre-game, if I'm being honest. The worst thing is being that huge a liability to the team. Town is okay because even if I suck at scumhunting we're the majority and can pull through despite me fucking shit up and getting vigged.

Yeah that was kinda weird to me since he made out like he has no idea why Ranger was scumreading him previously. Also if he has prior experience with her why ask about her lists? It was a scummy as fuck reaction to her lists though and then super scummy reaction to hiplop's vote on him which quoted his scummy reaction to her lists. What do you think about my other scum IC hippylop?

[JaeReed]

V/LA:

Creature until 6/19.
KuroiXHF until 6/20.
Ranger until 6/20.

@Chip he's VLA.

[JaeReed]

....can you explain how that was a townie reaction to a hammer?

This. I found some of those unvotes sus as f for this reasoning.

Disagree about Charl, he's a nullish for me right now.

[JaeReed]

like, charl looks terrible and is prolly scum, but I'm still down for lynching lq.

Explain the logic of not voting for prolly scum, but rather for LQ? Or you don't really care who gets lynched?

She's voting definite scum rather than probable scum. She's gotta care who gets lynched no matter her alignment. What you brought up is a null point and a misrep.

Don't think it was intentional, just saying read the posts :p

[JaeReed]

Btw, I'm thinking that scum probably don't want to lynch scum at this point but they still want to find them. Scum need to narrow the town pool. Hence the unvotes on LQ.

His anger is NAI from how I'm seeing it. Can't decide if House is scum or bad town.

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:

Reviewing.

@LQ who else did I apparently ignore?

[JaeReed]

UNVOTE:

Reviewing.

@LQ who else did I apparently ignore?

You said you wanted to hear from anyone but a few people, did you not?

Oh, that was regarding that particular question, as it is a direct question

about

those people. I have my own reads on those people and the situation, but want others to weigh in so I can read the other people better.

[JaeReed]

reads LQ? I get the feeling you're an easy wagon target because you post a lot of unhelpful material.

Reads is not scumhunting. I want him to scumhunt. Didn't read your larger post in full, but basically, you think I was voting LQ for the scum theater thing with House, but that's not why. I happened to vote him following that because that's when I woke up and read the game, iirc. I was questioning it being scum theater because of my scumread on LQ, not the other way around.

Also, not thinking House is the same faction as LQ does not mean I think House is town. I still had a scumread on both of them.

Anyway, I'm rereading the game now. I think I actually disagree with a lot of Ranger's first two lists. If she's scum then I thought we could still use her reads to hunt the faction she's not in, but now I am starting to question whether she just put two easy mislynches at the bottom and is planning to tell her team the real reads at night. It'd make her less of a night kill target if her reads aren't as accurate. Yeah, yeah, burden of proficiency and all that.

For now:

VOTE: Ranger

While I continue to reread I think this is where I want to be.

[JaeReed]

Because I figure I'll get to your post when I get to it. I will read it, just atm I'm doing my reread because obviously I'm wrong about LQ and need to figure out who I'd rather lynch.

And yes, I idolize Ranger. So what? The point stands. I thought she'd still be useful to town even if she's scum, but am second guessing that because on reread her reads look laughably wrong to me. Plus she played with LQ in one of the games he linked where he was town so she knows in advance that he comes across as scummy when town. In retrospect it looks like she put him there purely to get him lynched with the knowledge he's lynchbait. His reaction to her lists is still bad, though, especially knowing he has played with her before (for the record, this was the first thing of his that pinged me, not her list itself).

I initially thought she just couldn't read Bella and her reads were fine. Now that I'm thinking there's a possibility for LQ to be town I don't think that her reads are fine.

[JaeReed]

Later on he reveals that Bellaphant convinced him that House isn't scum sided with LQ, however puzzlingly he scum reads Bellaphant and says

"I really want to respond to you as a person but I can't because I don't know for sure you're the same alignment as me"

post 200 For context, in the previous post he is clearly looking for reasons to call Bell suss post 192 even if he's trying to appeal to Ranger to do it. Talking about ranger, he's been ass kissing her this entire game. It's gets painfully overt here: post 188

Actually I was reading Bella as a townlean before. I did say in post 200 I thought Ranger was wrong on Bella. That said, just because it's less likely for House to be sided with LQ doesn't mean it's not possible he could be sided with Bella. I wanted Ranger to weigh in on that so I could get a look at whether Ranger was scum. And yes, I can't be sure she's the same alignment as me. I can't be sure anyone is without a flip. That doesn't mean I'm scumreading her, that just means that I know I can be wrong on my townread of her.

With regards to "defending" House... Questioning someone on their vote isn't defending. It's trying to sort the person who voted.

Decided to respond because my reads by page 3 are depressing me so I'm stopping for now.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: jaE

Hey hey

Hey hey Jury's still out on you, mate. Don't know what a non scum IC hippylop looks like yet. Don't have anything specifically I want to prod you about at this stage. Sorry for asking Bella and not you but I have a feeling she's townish <3 You can still try to IC me if you like! My trust for you right now is comparable to my thoughts on how good you are at CSing

Maybe I've been out of the game too long.

What do you mean by the abbreviations IC and CS as they are used in this post?

Inexperience-Challenged in a newbie that I replaced into. Hippylop was my IC. For my first newbie also, Bella replaced in as IC. I've been unfortunate to have never had a non-scum IC. Just finished cocktail party where singersigner was my IC and she was scum also :/

I know that I tend towards disliking your style of scumhunting as town from reading games where you were town in. I tend to scumread you when you're town anyway, so it's hard for me to judge your alignment.

Which games of mine have you read?

Huh.... I went into your threads to pick out the games and realized it was just one. I can't talk about it because rules. I don't super know why it matters what the game is, though?

??

If I wanted to confbias sure.

Paranoid of confbias here...

Haha yeah, tbf ranger's put me low on her town reads when I'm town when she's town and scum, though! So it isn't indicative of much.

I'd've rather been scum with you. I'm still not sure you aren't.

Lq's defense to me was 'creature is scum bc of ongoing and ongoings is why ranger thinks i'm scum' which was...weird.

Is that admittance to being scum and thinking I'm on the other team?

Joking around with confbias here.

Two different mindsets over the same subject (confbias) reads as disingenuous to me.

Joking at a friend on the second. I probably shouldn't do that in games. No one told me not to though. *shrugs* But yeah, I act differently towards my friends.

like, charl looks terrible and is prolly scum, but I'm still down for lynching lq.

Explain the logic of not voting for prolly scum, but rather for LQ? Or you don't really care who gets lynched?

She's voting definite scum rather than probable scum. She's gotta care who gets lynched no matter her alignment. What you brought up is a null point and a misrep.

Don't think it was intentional, just saying read the posts :p

If it's a misrep, by definition it isn't null. Are you coaching?

Eh, from Charl I think it is null because I don't think it was intentional. I just think he didn't read the posts properly. You can skim as either alignment. I mean, I am coaching him to read the posts, sure? If you're asking flat out if we're scumbuddies then the answer is always going to be no regardless of my alignment or his, so I don't see the point in such a question. It'd be better to ask others what they think about it and see if their thoughts line up with your own, imo.

But I'm pretty bad so my theory there is potentially useless.

[JaeReed]

But why pick randomly when there are better methods?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p8021473

Scum iso. If LQ is town, this is obvious trying for town cred by opposing the wagon before it goes through.

VOTE: creature

The problem with this line of thinking is that scum are scumhunting too. Creature wouldn't know for sure anyone is town so the grab for towncred in that situation could go horribly wrong. All that means, I think, is that he legitimately thinks he's town.

[JaeReed]

(and it has to be tonight because I am sure she is dying tonight regardless of alignment).

Well, I am gonna die tonight since there's no town doctor, but devil's advocate, the only way I'd die N1 as scum is if we lynched my faction's doctor or if I was in fact my faction's doctor.

But this is true enough. Last multiball game, I nailed both scum and for my trouble ate the N1 nightkill as scum.

I have to admit, I've placed you in my top-tier for town, but I'm not absolutely sure you're town. It's more like you have

such

a good grasp of me, and where I'm coming from, that you'd be breaking my heart if you were scum.

...Also, pretty sure you'd get nightkilled too.

Huh... Guess I should try to remember the setup and what roles scum have.

Yup, I watched that. That's why I'm afraid you're going to wifom us if you're scum again I have trust issues where you're concerned.

... Um, thanks? >.< Now I feel bad for my recent posts... And I just made the sudden realization that you know I'm weak to AtE.

Why would I get nightkilled?

@Ranger when you get back... What did you think of these parts of Bella's post?

Well, Bella's still low on my list. I think she's not the highest-priority lynch. She seems to have some content which is good and looks to be scumhunting, but I think there is a very significant chance she's scum.

She should be higher, I think?

UNVOTE: she's dead tonight anyway and I probably shouldn't have bothered rereading :/ I'm sorry.

[JaeReed]

I'm quite confident Jaereed is scum, refer to how he gave way under pressure and simply left when he was unable to refute the case against him.

What? When did I leave because I couldn't refute a case?

[JaeReed]

Reads is not scumhunting.

But...but...
;_;

</3

I idolize Ranger.

<3

...Yet...

VOTE: Ranger

</3

Plus she played with LQ in one of the games he linked where he was town so she knows in advance that he comes across as scummy when town.

The only town game I have with LicketyQuickety is when he was a hydra, with Titus. I was also a hydra. To be blunt, I don't think LicketyQuickety and I have had a game where we've shared the same alignment.

I'm sorry Q_Q I'm so sorry. If it helps, I felt physically ill after doing it? >.< Apparently I still can't section you off properly.

Regarding the first point, your reads are an exception <3 I think I'm just gonna use this game to try and get better and figure out how you read people because I'm apparently sucking 100% right now across the board. Hopefully I can make like a sponge and absorb at least a little bit of it.

Also, you're right (again). I got the games he linked mixed up and thought his scum game was his town game when checking which you played with him in.

[JaeReed]

Ranger...Why. You

know

how conflicted this is making me feel right? I think you're buddying me and I don't want it to stop Q.Q I'm nowhere near as good as you, not even for a backup. More like a pet puppy.

In fact, I was happier not feeling sick and I just went through your first reads list with the intention of working out why everyone ended up where they were. I can make sense of them now and I was just being silly. Sorry.

[JaeReed]

Later on he reveals that Bellaphant convinced him that House isn't scum sided with LQ, however puzzlingly he scum reads Bellaphant and says

"I really want to respond to you as a person but I can't because I don't know for sure you're the same alignment as me"

post 200 For context, in the previous post he is clearly looking for reasons to call Bell suss post 192 even if he's trying to appeal to Ranger to do it. Talking about ranger, he's been ass kissing her this entire game. It's gets painfully overt here: post 188

Actually I was reading Bella as a townlean before. I did say in post 200 I thought Ranger was wrong on Bella. That said, just because it's less likely for House to be sided with LQ doesn't mean it's not possible he could be sided with Bella. I wanted Ranger to weigh in on that so I could get a look at whether Ranger was scum. And yes, I can't be sure she's the same alignment as me. I can't be sure anyone is without a flip. That doesn't mean I'm scumreading her, that just means that I know I can be wrong on my townread of her.

With regards to "defending" House... Questioning someone on their vote isn't defending. It's trying to sort the person who voted.

Decided to respond because my reads by page 3 are depressing me so I'm stopping for now.

sorry lol I missed this.

Could you explain your answer to the question? I'll lay out the history so it's unambiguous where I'm coming from.
1) Jae provides reason to scum read LQ and House
2) Jae scum reads LQ but not House
3) Jae is convinced that House isn't aligned with LQ
4) Jae continues to scum read LQ

2 and 3 are in the incorrect order, and 4 is not allowed if you're letting go of House. Imo it demonstrates premeditated voting. Your intention was to vote with the LQ wagon, your stated motive doesn't add up because it defies causality. Yet you still vote LQ because... Ranger votes him??

If ranger told you to walk off a cliff...

Yes, my intention was to vote LQ, even before I knew there was a wagon. I woke to a lot of new posts iirc. I always read through first then do my posts. It's just how I play. I was scumreading LQ way before the exchange with House, and not because Ranger was. If I was intending to sheep Ranger I'd say that flat out. I've done it before where I've not managed to get my own reads so went with the flow. I stated as such when I was doing it. I believe it was something like "Sheeping. Baa." but yeah, didn't do that this game, because I wasn't sheeping. I had my own scumread on the slot.

Point 1 was my reason to scumread House. Because by that stage I was already looking for associates, because I was that sure that LQ was scum. Here, I'll underline the main point for you and summarize it:

I was scumreading LQ prior to his interaction with House.

Get it yet?

[JaeReed]

I think you're buddying me and I don't want it to stop Q.Q

Uhhh...would it make you happier for me to say I am buddying you, or I'm not buddying you?

Both responses would be buddying xD

It would honestly make me happiest if you flipped town so I could think that you were being honest with everything you said xP

Fun fact: I asked people to not let me make a fool of myself in front of you again. They have abandoned me. xD TOO LATE, GUYS. I'm lost and nothing can save me now!

[JaeReed]

Because I was asleep before my third post. Everything blew up during my night and as I read it I went "Wow yeah LQ is scum" and decided that's where I wanted to vote barring him already being at L1 or something. His posting was obv scum at that point. What? You want me to play the game while I'm sleeping? Do you? Because that would actually explain so much.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: jaE

Hey hey

Hey hey Jury's still out on you, mate. Don't know what a non scum IC hippylop looks like yet. Don't have anything specifically I want to prod you about at this stage. Sorry for asking Bella and not you but I have a feeling she's townish <3 You can still try to IC me if you like! My trust for you right now is comparable to my thoughts on how good you are at CSing

Maybe I've been out of the game too long.

What do you mean by the abbreviations IC and CS as they are used in this post?

Inexperience-Challenged in a newbie that I replaced into. Hippylop was my IC. For my first newbie also, Bella replaced in as IC. I've been unfortunate to have never had a non-scum IC. Just finished cocktail party where singersigner was my IC and she was scum also :/

I just remembered you exist and I forgot to explain CS. It's a League of Legends thing. Short for Creep Score. I like to watch Hippylop's games and tell him he sucks from missing cs. It makes me feel better about how much I suck at it >.>

[JaeReed]

Because I was asleep before my third post. Everything blew up during my night and as I read it I went "Wow yeah LQ is scum" and decided that's where I wanted to vote barring him already being at L1 or something. His posting was obv scum at that point. What? You want me to play the game while I'm sleeping? Do you? Because that would actually explain so much.

If this were true you would have stated this first, not last. Rhetoric such as "

What? You want me to play the game while I'm sleeping? Do you?

" makes it look even worse.

Actually, I wasn't sleeping. Just checked the timestamp. It was Saturday 3pm. That day I didn't feel particularly like playing here and hosted song game instead, then I had to go shopping iirc. So it could have blown up during my day, but my point was that it was the first time I checked since around 8ish Friday night. I had the scumread on LQ based on things that had happened between my previous post and that post. I asked for Bella's opinion on the scum theater thing to try to get something to sort her and to check and whether my suspicion of House being LQ's partner was founded there.

I really don't see what you're trying to achieve here. You obviously don't want to correctly sort me, so why are you trying to engage me over something stupid that you're just going to confbias everything I say?

I can tell you the truth til I'm blue in the face and you still wouldn't believe that I was scumreading LQ prior to his interactions with House when I was reading the thread. I go to sleep, I like to do fun things with friends, I have to do rl stuff. I have a life however housebound I may be from my illness and I don't always spend it waiting here. It frustrates me that you seem to expect me to have commented somewhere prior to when I actually got in the fucking game. It's annoying and yeah it makes me lash out and then I feel bad because I don't like being prickly but it's

annoying

.

[JaeReed]

I think Jae has the right answer to this: It's not rocket science to follow a scum partner's lead, even without daytalk. It's not a "stupid" premise, and your calling it such looks like an overreaction. Also, Jae is right to point out that you seemed quick to jump onto his question to Bella to hose this down.

For the sake of argument, let's say that scum CAN stage conversations even without Daytalk. This brings us back to your question about why Jae assumed staging to be between scum of the same faction. If staging IS possible, it is obvious it can only be between scum of the same faction, right?

@Jae: Curious - why did you ask the question about LQ's exchange with House on that page, but not his earlier exchange on the same page with the "other House", aka Kuroi?

I didn't find that exchange to feel off, and didn't have any doubts about it that I felt a second opinion could help with. It felt like a town Kuroi reaching out to LQ in case he was town. Reads town vs scum there.

I was already scumreading LQ

and the exchange didn't do anything to make me think "huh, he might be town" whereas Kuroi's side seemed pretty town.

@Smither I did mention it earlier that I was scumreading LQ before the thing with House (and Kuroi)

[JaeReed]

I'm not sure why you're so desperate for me to drop my scum read. I'm not dropping it.

Because I know I'm town and can see you tunneling me when you need to at least search for the opposite faction outside of my interactions. Because I still need to find like 6 scum and I need help with that from the other town.

@Jae: Curious - why did you ask the question about LQ's exchange with House on that page, but not his earlier exchange on the same page with the "other House", aka Kuroi?

I didn't find that exchange to feel off, and didn't have any doubts about it that I felt a second opinion could help with. It felt like a town Kuroi reaching out to LQ in case he was town. Reads town vs scum there.

I was already scumreading LQ

and the exchange didn't do anything to make me think "huh, he might be town" whereas Kuroi's side seemed pretty town.

@Smither I did mention it earlier that I was scumreading LQ before the thing with House (and Kuroi)

I'd accept this as satisfactory. Apologies.

Sure? It was still after everything went down. I mean, the most this proves is that I didn't just make this up tonight. Sorry I've been so prickly. It's mainly that you're reading me wrong and I know that I can't convince you otherwise, tbh. Plus you seem to me to be reading other people based off your read on me (which I'm guilty of doing as well), but I know I'm town and therefore have a responsibility to try to convince town reads to at least scum hunt without factoring their read on me into it >.< otherwise I feel like all the reads are going to be wrong.

[JaeReed]

Yeah I didn't read it as a joke, either.

And Charl </3 Breakfast more important than making sure I don't obvious crush in thread. But did you see?!?! She called me "Backup Ranger" even though I'm this bad The woman knows how to play to her fans.

[JaeReed]

Creature, talk to me about jae and karnos?

Also, I wrote a catch up last night and my pc ate it. More later, maybe!

My problem here is I started off townreading you and now I'm second guessing it for two main reasons.

1) You're trying to get up enough support to get a townie lynched without actually seeming like you're doing it.

2) this is seeming a lot like song game when you vote me for your song. You're trying to frame me for something you're guilty of. It puts your RVS in a new light (I originally interpreted it as a greeting).

This could be an elaborate omgus on my part. Not sure yet. Point is, you know better and you know I'm transparent as town. I think you know I'm town, and I'm not going to lie down and let you do what I think you're doing without a fight. (Huh.. I think I understand "friends don't let friends beat them at mafia now")

Side note: pista and smither fos' of me look ok. Wrong but ok. Pista looks barely ok but I think that's just playstyle difference.

[JaeReed]

@Pista,
What are your thoughts on Jae?

Also, it's well worth reading up on LQ. I had this feeling that the wagon was too opportunistic to be genuine and I've reached the belief that there isn't anything noticeably different about LQ from game to game. Certainly not enough for everyone to be scum reading him for it.

There was some opportunism in the LQ wagon, but it's Day 1 and multiball.

I don't like how Jae is being so weird about Ranger (first puts blind faith in her, then votes her because she disagrees with some of her lists, then unvotes her because "she's dead tonight anyway." I can't tell if that's fumbling scum or confused newbie town, though.

Huh.. I thought the opportunism to the LQ wagon was about me but now I realize it was in general. I assume you've read Smither vs me anyway so there's not much more for me to say about my vote there.

Ranger, however, I can talk about. For freakin' miles. The short version is: I idolize her. She's my hero and I wanna be half as good as her. There are a few people that I want to take various things from but Ranger is just

cool

to me. If you see a game we played together, C9++ modded by lilith, you'll see the way I interacted with her when I was town and she was scum. I fought against her lynch only for her to self hammer with a message to her scum buddies. I got vigged for it because I made myself an easy mislynch target.

I know no one cares but...

Spoiler: storytime/long version

So during my first newbie I was reading a lot of games because basically I am housebound due to illness a lot and I was bored. I'm reading Diffusion of Power and they need a replacement. Ranger replaces in. Town acts like game is solved. The attitude was basically "cool Ranger will solve the game for us!" and then she proceeded to do her reads lists before the thread got locked for the flip. She narrowed scum down to one of two people. Game was on lock. It was so

freakin cool

. Both ended up being mislynches. At some time during this my game with her started. I really excited. To the point where I was refreshing the index page looking for her name to be in online users.

She came on. She started posting in her games and I stalked her user posts as she did it because I'm creepy as fuck. I swear she left our game for last and I was sooooo excited when she finally posted and pretty much stated that I was anxiously awaiting it, not even thinking that she recently got flak in one of her games for being an infrequent poster. She got mad Q.Q rightfully so, even if my post wasn't meant that way. So I explained to her it was just because I was excited to be in a game with her and not meant that way. She then said if I was an alt, especially of RC's, she'd speedlynch me. Now like.... My play is terrible. All know this. There is no way I could be an RC alt. But I wouldn't let that deter me! (I later got called an FA emotional twin if not alt by Persivul as well.. apparently y'all like to think newbies are alts)

I told her I'd drive her lynch if she was scum. Big words. Ones I couldn't follow through on. D2 I was scumreading her and it made me want to quit and cry and throw a tantrum. She said she wasn't in the game. Great! I could just throw away all of D1 right? I ignored the mason softing and reaching out to me and insisted that her soft claim of doctor after we had a flipped doctor and 1x doctor could be true. She went through the game again to get back into it and made a list I found more agreeable. Namely, she was no longer scumreading me. >.< Plus she threw me a bone so I was happily wagging my tail, claiming it was town Ranger.

Some stage during this she managed to get an obv!town slot lynched in Diffusion of Power. Mind you, at this point as I'm reading this game I was still like "Oh wow I never would have realized it was that person who was scum" because I had complete faith in her for that game. She won the game. As scum. That was her first betrayal of my trust. I believed in her even after she drove two mislynches. I was sure she couldn't be wrong a third time. Turned out she was never wrong because she was the last mafia.

Anyway, I'm still fighting her lynch because I am a fool, and she self hammers. With a whole "Scum buddies, refer to our PT" type post. Sooo yup, I felt pretty dang silly after that. That's the story of how I became paranoid of Ranger. Plus I got vigged for my efforts, which was the only correct play there I think because I was pretty much the guaranteed mislynch the next day otherwise.

Also I was reading some other games of hers based off how cool I thought she was in Diffusion, was in the dead thread of one where she hydra'd with RC that was multiball (they started both being RC and I couldn't tell who was posting in the end and that made me sad), and popped into the dead thread for nightless vengeful mayhem because she replaced in and then she got shot. I also watched another multiball where she drew scum

again

but nailed the enemy team and got shot for it. So yeah... She's just really really really cool.

Uhhh.. shoutout to my friends <3 I love you guys too.

[JaeReed]

Jae, I read your long post about Ranger, and like...it just seems like a personal history story between you and somebody else that doesn't really affect me? Like, I'm wondering if the intent is to distract me from thinking your interactions in this game are weird? I get it, YOU LOVE RANGER.

Love's a strong word. Idolize. Hero worship. Love is reserved for certain people in my life.

And I did say no one cares Hence why it was spoilered. I honestly didn't expect you to read it xD

[JaeReed]

Yeah none of that made sense to me in terms of this game xD

[JaeReed]

@Ranger Have you checked LQ's tone in his scum and town games compared to this game? He seems a lot more passive as scum but I'm honestly not sure whether it's just because he doesn't have to scumhunt in the games he linked. Humour me and meta argument? (yeah I know I'm associating myself strongly with you at this point but screw it I think you're probs town despite the buddying)

Townreading: Karnos, Smither, pista, Kuroi, Almost, Kop, Charl
Scumreading: DixC, LQ, Bella

Rest are kinda up in the air for me til I do a review. It's State of Origin tho so not tonight and probably not tomorrow because QLD gonna win tonight pre sure and I'm gonna end up drunk if not already <3

[JaeReed]

Do you think Dix's ISO looks scummy or not?

As for voting, I'm trying to decide whether to revote LQ or not, and Dix has been pinging me ever since that post where he listed his "kill list" criteria. I want to reread, and pref get a response from Dix, then wil vote. Was more focussed on another game last time I was logged in - you know which one.

I don't know. I should know DixC, since I've played a lot of games with him on the other forums, but I'm finding it a little hard to read him here since the meta is so different.

I know my first game here was pretty awkward and everyone immediately thought I was scum, so I think it's possible some of his 'scum tells' are just because he is new and not posting in the typical style of these forums.

Overall, he is a solid null as I read him.

What about if you were reading him in the method of your home forum?

[JaeReed]

Why do you find only theory talk to be a slight town lean instead of trying to escape scrutiny?

Reaching is fine, I think town and scum do that equally and it's more in the way they go about it. I think he was really off as far as conclusions, but I can't tell if that's scummy or not in the way he did it.

[JaeReed]

Not checking atm cuz I'm drunk as fuck after finding out we won state of origin but seems fair enough. I'll double check on a reread and this post is to mostly remind me to do so.

[JaeReed]

Jae, I read your long post about Ranger, and like...it just seems like a personal history story between you and somebody else that doesn't really affect me? Like, I'm wondering if the intent is to distract me from thinking your interactions in this game are weird? I get it, YOU LOVE RANGER.

Love's a strong word. Idolize. Hero worship. Love is reserved for certain people in my life.

And I did say no one cares Hence why it was spoilered. I honestly didn't expect you to read it xD

Then what was your point? How is this supposed to make you look town? If you didn't expect me to read it, why should I stop questioning your weird interaction with Ranger?

I wasn't thinking about looking town. I am town whether you like it or not and whether I look town or not. I gave the short version, which is what I expected you to read, which explains my side of the interactions imo. Ranger hard buddying me is a different story altogether but I don't have a problem with it since she'll be dead tonight anyway and anyone who thinks we're partners after that is just

really

lazy and not actually hunting.

So:
My point? Explain my side of the interactions.
How it makes me look town? Fucked if I'd know since I wasn't trying to look town - I am town and therefore don't need to try and look anything.
Why should you stop questioning? You have your response so you can probably form an opinion based off that I'd imagine.

[JaeReed]

Jae, drop the omgus. Just...you are noisy. I hate players that are noisy in ways I can't understand.


VOTE: charl

God, there's a lot of nothing in their iso and their reaction to the fake hammer is baaad.

Multiball is confusing

You knew I was a noisy player to begin with. Also, that vote is lazy.

Agree on multiball.. Spectating and forming reads is way different to playing.

[JaeReed]

Ok. I have noted the history and I still dislike your interaction with Ranger.

That's fine, dislike away.

lazy, but not incorrect. If we can nail obv!scum today, we can do the harder stuff when the huge amount of scum has thinned a bit

I could also vote pista still. That question to ranger is super counter productive.

@hippy, what do you need?

It is indeed incorrect. This isn't a scum Charl, I think. I also believe that you should know that. It looks like you want to thin town, not scum. You're feeling out support for mislynches and it feels scummy.

I also think pista is town. The question was bad, yes, but the question is whether that makes her scum or not. Why do you believe she's more likely to ask that question as scum rather than town?

I'll be honest here, it seems like you're not even really trying to actually scumhunt. It's all shallow from what I've seen the past few days. I know you can do better than this.

[JaeReed]

Why is it optimal strategy for Scum to mislynch? I don't think you have answered that so it is not a given.

How does pista's question make them look Town?

YOU are not really Scum hunting either. I can prolly count on one hand the actual questions you have asked people.

Because there's more town than scum so they want to thin town before night killing each other?

That question doesn't. It also doesn't make them look scum, when the rest of their ISO seems town to me. Ergo, still townreading despite a bad question that doesn't make her look scum.

I don't care if you don't think I'm scumhunting. I'm doing my own analysis and asking questions when I need to. I think Bella isn't analyzing what's in the thread properly, ergo, shallow scumhunting. Which is not really scumhunting.

[JaeReed]

Lol... I think I just read DixC basically saying he thinks LQ is too scummy to be scum. There's no such thing and that's a terrible reason to call someone town.

Er, you mean my story about my idolization and paranoia of Ranger? The one I spoilered because no one cares? That was me gushing, mostly. I don't see how you'd expect Ranger to answer for that. If you're talking about our interactions, I'm assuming she was buddying and I don't care that she was? In fact, I'm 100% fine with being pocketed by Ranger. As she pointed out, she's dead tonight anyway so no harm done.

[JaeReed]

Why is it optimal strategy for Scum to mislynch? I don't think you have answered that so it is not a given.

How does pista's question make them look Town?

YOU are not really Scum hunting either. I can prolly count on one hand the actual questions you have asked people.

Because there's more town than scum so they want to thin town before night killing each other?

That question doesn't. It also doesn't make them look scum, when the rest of their ISO seems town to me. Ergo, still townreading despite a bad question that doesn't make her look scum.

I don't care if you don't think I'm scumhunting. I'm doing my own analysis and asking questions when I need to. I think Bella isn't analyzing what's in the thread properly, ergo, shallow scumhunting. Which is not really scumhunting.

That is a very shallow answer. If you want to be good at this game, you are going to have to do better than this.

Then why do you have pista as Town? You haven't answered this. What about the ISO makes them look Town?

Don't try to push this off on other people. Take some responsibility and actually Scum hunt.

The reason I want YOU to explain what you are doing is because I don't want you to just state things as given when they are not. I have problems with the way you play the game because you go off on these tangents that are in all likelihood, not very probable.

I don't see how theory can even have a shallow answer. You're annoying. The way I see it scum need to thin town because we're the majority. They need the other scum factions night kills to help do this too. If the other scum team all goes down based off associations then the remaining scum team has a harder time hiding.

You didn't ask, so yeah of course I didn't answer an unasked question. Most things about her ISO makes her look town. If you think you're so good, then you can figure it out yourself. I think her responses to questions asked of her have been town and her analysis has been town-motivated even if the conclusions she reaches are wrong/I think are wrong.

I answered your question with the context in mind. Nice attempt to derail me off your scumbuddy, though. Mind telling me who the third is?

[JaeReed]

Smithereens, do you wanna chuck some questions at me? I'm not getting anyway with jae (ongoings, but charl isn't this useless as town) and I think it'd help me get my head back in it/clear up your read on me

I don't think Charl has this tone as scum.

You're right, you're not getting anywhere with me, and you won't until you start playing to the level I expect of you. You know you're not in the game as much as you should be judging from what you said in this post.

I'll try to help out here. Based off your earlier questioning of Creature about his read on Karnos would it be correct to assume you do not have a townread on him? If not, I want you to go through his ISO and tell me what you're seeing that I'm not.

[JaeReed]

Why is it optimal strategy for Scum to mislynch? I don't think you have answered that so it is not a given.

How does pista's question make them look Town?

YOU are not really Scum hunting either. I can prolly count on one hand the actual questions you have asked people.

Because there's more town than scum so they want to thin town before night killing each other?

That question doesn't. It also doesn't make them look scum, when the rest of their ISO seems town to me. Ergo, still townreading despite a bad question that doesn't make her look scum.

I don't care if you don't think I'm scumhunting. I'm doing my own analysis and asking questions when I need to. I think Bella isn't analyzing what's in the thread properly, ergo, shallow scumhunting. Which is not really scumhunting.

I'd have to disagree. If I was scum I would definitely want to lynch scum in public for town cred, and off town PRs at night in secrecy. Lynching town would bring attention to me from both town PRs and the opposing scum faction, which nobody needs this early into the game.

For reference, check game #16 on my wiki page. I was scum, it was MB, and I got universally town read for pushing on a member of the other team early into the game. We lynched the SK on D1, lynched scum from the opposing team on D2, the town vig offed my push who flipped scum, then I personally too the town vig out with a daykill as soon as they claimed on D3, and it was pretty much an easy ride from there on.

But -of course- to to each their own and YMMD. Just presenting a different PoV for the sake of argument.

This would make some sense. It's probably unlikely for associates to take a team of 3 down also. I don't really know. It might be good for scum in this setup. Assuming both scum hit town while town only lynch one scumteam. That's 6 town dead by d4 I think? We have 11 town iirc. That's over half of town dead from lynching scum every day. That's assuming the vig doesn't shoot, also, which I think is a stretch. And assuming scum don't try to shoot the same person. Not sure if that cancels the kill or what.

I've never played MB but I read the borderlands game you were in where you were face mcshooty, and the recently completed fire and ice game, as well as friends and enemies (and enemies). Most of my theory in that scum shouldn't want to kill the other team off too early is coming from my limited readings.

[JaeReed]

Why is it optimal strategy for Scum to mislynch? I don't think you have answered that so it is not a given.

How does pista's question make them look Town?

YOU are not really Scum hunting either. I can prolly count on one hand the actual questions you have asked people.

Because there's more town than scum so they want to thin town before night killing each other?

That question doesn't. It also doesn't make them look scum, when the rest of their ISO seems town to me. Ergo, still townreading despite a bad question that doesn't make her look scum.

I don't care if you don't think I'm scumhunting. I'm doing my own analysis and asking questions when I need to. I think Bella isn't analyzing what's in the thread properly, ergo, shallow scumhunting. Which is not really scumhunting.

I'd have to disagree. If I was scum I would definitely want to lynch scum in public for town cred, and off town PRs at night in secrecy. Lynching town would bring attention to me from both town PRs and the opposing scum faction, which nobody needs this early into the game.

For reference, check game #16 on my wiki page. I was scum, it was MB, and I got universally town read for pushing on a member of the other team early into the game. We lynched the SK on D1, lynched scum from the opposing team on D2, the town vig offed my push who flipped scum, then I personally too the town vig out with a daykill as soon as they claimed on D3, and it was pretty much an easy ride from there on.

But -of course- to to each their own and YMMD. Just presenting a different PoV for the sake of argument.

This would make some sense. It's probably unlikely for associates to take a team of 3 down also. I don't really know. It might be good for scum in this setup. Assuming both scum hit town while town only lynch one scumteam. That's 6 town dead by d4 I think? We have 11 town iirc. That's over half of town dead from lynching scum every day. That's assuming the vig doesn't shoot, also, which I think is a stretch. And assuming scum don't try to shoot the same person. Not sure if that cancels the kill or what.

I've never played MB but I read the borderlands game you were in where you were face mcshooty, and the recently completed fire and ice game, as well as friends and enemies (and enemies). Most of my theory in that scum shouldn't want to kill the other team off too early is coming from my limited readings.

I forgot about the town nightkill = more lynches next day thing. This is why I don't try to math. >.< It should be by D3 we have all of one scum team lynched, and therefore only lose 4 town. So I think scum still want to try to drive town mislynches regularly enough because they're going to need to anyway and it'll look kinda sus if they only do it after one team is dead. They could try to get one or two of the other team lynched though for the towncred. That is a possibility. Idunno.

What happens if scum try to shoot the same person at night? Does the kill get cancelled or does it go through?

[JaeReed]

VOTE: jaereed

Phone posting. But I don't like post #523

It just seems off to me.

Lol? That was me correcting my math in a previous post after I read the rules again trying to see if scum night kills cancel each other out. You're clearly not reading the game.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: jaereed

Phone posting. But I don't like post #523

It just seems off to me.

Lol? That was me correcting my math in a previous post after I read the rules again trying to see if scum night kills cancel each other out. You're clearly not reading the game.

But why would you want to know this? This is striking me as scum trying to work out the mechanics from a scum POV, trying to make out your town with town motivations. If scum double kill it shows as one kill, and leaves town thinking other possibilities. Why is it something you want to know? It's all scum possibilities, it's something scum only want to know.

Yeahhh see if I was going to do that as scum I'd have done it already. In that thing known as a scum PT. Or I'd just wait til night.

And no, if scum double kill they could cancel the kill as in fire and ice mafia. Where the Ranger and RC hydra had the chance of living every single night because of that.

Considering the context I was trying to work things out in? Yeah, I want to know. I want to know if scum are trying to lynch scum or town today. I feel like I need to know that so I know what I'm looking for. I bring you back to my first paragraph. Why would I ask that publicly as scum?

[JaeReed]

I am skeptical that you are as good as you claim, but I'm extending you the benefit of the doubt because I've been away for a while.

And I'm asking why you're giving the benefit of the doubt in the first place.

Because I'd like it to be true, but that doesn't mean I'm giving you a free pass.

It costs town nothing to let you live today on the chance you're actually worth what you think. If you are, you'll be scum's problem to take care of.

This shouldn't surprise you if you actually read the game I linked earlier. I had a similar outlook about Pine, but it was based on personal experience. He turned out to be scum, though.

Did you miss the part where she said she doesn't go into other games? You know... Where I specifically asked her.

[JaeReed]

Here's my

would

lynch pile:

KuroiXHF
Charloux
JaeReed
karnos
House
Creature
pistachi0n

This list... Has the players i generally like and would want to see in D2 at least. Well no comment on House and pista though.
But i think LQ is just 100% emotional and is just holding a grudge on your ex-wagon. Liking him as townish.
@Almost: Is your first priority in the game to have fun or to win?

Kuroi is someone I wouldn't miss being around - they are not a stellar player
Charloux hasn't really had any new contribution that can't be easily faked as Scum
Jae is one of my Scum reads and someone I wouldn't mind seeing gone because they don't support their reads with anything tangible
Karnos I have been Scum reading all game
House I am Scum reading for trying to flip the tables on people one too many times
Creature I am Scum reading because they haven't played like I know them to play as Town.
pistachi0n is just a gut read that I think I could play without them in the game.

Your reads are shit and your reasonings are shit. Ask me about any of my reads and I'll tell you my reasoning. You hating my playstyle is NAI.

Note that ranger is not on this list, who he has been touting as scum.

Plus this list is mostly ppl I'm townreading.

[JaeReed]

I am skeptical that you are as good as you claim, but I'm extending you the benefit of the doubt because I've been away for a while.

And I'm asking why you're giving the benefit of the doubt in the first place.

Because I'd like it to be true, but that doesn't mean I'm giving you a free pass.

It costs town nothing to let you live today on the chance you're actually worth what you think. If you are, you'll be scum's problem to take care of.

This shouldn't surprise you if you actually read the game I linked earlier. I had a similar outlook about Pine, but it was based on personal experience. He turned out to be scum, though.

Did you miss the part where she said she doesn't go into other games? You know... Where I specifically asked her.

Makes me less likely to believe she's as good as she thinks she is. mastin and Wisdom both use their experience or knowledge of others from other games to read players.

So Ranger, why are you such a threat to scum if you have no interest in a player's overall playstyle and habits?

Not what was said. She uses her own experience to my knowledge. You have this annoying habit of twisting words into what you want them to be.

[JaeReed]

Here's my

would

lynch pile:

KuroiXHF
Charloux
JaeReed
karnos
House
Creature
pistachi0n

This list... Has the players i generally like and would want to see in D2 at least. Well no comment on House and pista though.
But i think LQ is just 100% emotional and is just holding a grudge on your ex-wagon. Liking him as townish.
@Almost: Is your first priority in the game to have fun or to win?

Kuroi is someone I wouldn't miss being around - they are not a stellar player
Charloux hasn't really had any new contribution that can't be easily faked as Scum
Jae is one of my Scum reads and someone I wouldn't mind seeing gone because they don't support their reads with anything tangible
Karnos I have been Scum reading all game
House I am Scum reading for trying to flip the tables on people one too many times
Creature I am Scum reading because they haven't played like I know them to play as Town.
pistachi0n is just a gut read that I think I could play without them in the game.

Your reads are shit and your reasonings are shit. Ask me about any of my reads and I'll tell you my reasoning. You hating my playstyle is NAI.

Note that ranger is not on this list, who he has been touting as scum.

Plus this list is mostly ppl I'm townreading.

I asked you many times to substantiate your reads with something and you never delivered. Am I wrong on that?

As far as I know this was only regarding my scumread of you? That's one read. I can accommodate if that's what you want but there was no point earlier to me since I can't convince scum why they're scum. At least that's the theory I was running off, which is stated in the wiki.

[JaeReed]

Errr my wiki has nothing? I'm new. I read the wiki before my first game.

[JaeReed]

Vote: Sad

My first serious vote. He's posting quite a bit, and they appear to have depth, but it comes across to defensive.

Defensiveness isn't always a scum tell. Shoulda just stopped at that he was posting quite a bit and they appear to have depth.

God damn, this must be the reason I was Scum read so hard. I admit I can see how this makes me look Scummy. Only defense I can offer is that I wasn't really paying attention to what was happening in the thread, was just arguing with Kuroi stupidly because I didn't think they were being a troll face.

This is one of the things that makes you look scum to me. You're less concerned with finding scum than looking through your own iso to guess at how you're not looking town.

Town doesn't need to do that because they know they'll flip town. It feels self preservationist which is more likely to come from a minority mindset imo.

[JaeReed]

Not trusting shit. Experience with and knowledge of are two entirely different things.

Knowledge of another person's playstyle comes from researching their games.

If it was all the same thing, knowledge and experience would be reDUHndant.

Fine, I'll rephrase. I don't think ranger has the spare time to research other people's games.

[JaeReed]

I can tell you right now I have more experience than you do playing this game. Mafia is about learning how YOU play, not something that you can just get good at by reading about it. So while you can learn how to play by reading the wiki, you are never going to be a top tier player playing based on what is on the wiki. You can get pretty good, granted you can execute, but the top tier players are the ones who are writing those articles on optimal play. How much more do you think they know that they don't bother to make into an article?

I'll be the first to admit I am a lazy player, and its my downfall because I make mistakes that are so obvious, but when I am paying attention I am actually pretty dangerous to Scum.

I should also drop this now rather than later but I've seen a lot of different looks and different playstyles. Doesn't make me good at the game, but it tells that I have experience. I am basically a donkey - and experienced player who isn't very good. Another way of putting it is that I would be like your pro football player who has been in the game a while but is just not top tier material.

I know you do. Most people have more experience than me. That's a part of what makes playing in opens particularly hard for me.

I'm still trying to learn how to play. This is my first multiball for example. I've read them but never played them. The only way I'm going to figure shit out is by playing. I do my research then I try it out.

I apparently always play terribly either A) in opens, or B) in games with Ranger.

I appreciate the advice. I am trying. It's frustrating that in my newbies I never got a non scrum IC. Out of 3 games. One game I was dubbed obvtown and I don't even really know why aside from some kind of expectation of posting activity which I'm thinking was bs because it came from scum IC.

I shouldn't even be posting right now tbh since I'm drunk and ppl bitch about drunk posters.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: LQ

@Bella the exchange between House and Lickety last page... Scum theatre? By which I mean do you think they could be of the same faction?

Why do you suspect we'd be scum of the same faction, specifically? Is it because neither one of us share your scum PT?

This worries me a bit. Obviously, only scum from the same faction could stage theater, since scum from different factions would be unknown to each other at this point. Sketchy attempt to throw shade on Jae?

Obviously I couldn't stage theatre with anyone even if I

were

scum, considering I replaced in after the game started.

So yes, I'm throwing Jae's accusation back in their face because it was a stupid premise.

I think Jae has the right answer to this: It's not rocket science to follow a scum partner's lead, even without daytalk. It's not a "stupid" premise, and your calling it such looks like an overreaction. Also, Jae is right to point out that you seemed quick to jump onto his question to Bella to hose this down.

For the sake of argument, let's say that scum CAN stage conversations even without Daytalk. This brings us back to your question about why Jae assumed staging to be between scum of the same faction. If staging IS possible, it is obvious it can only be between scum of the same faction, right?

@Jae: Curious - why did you ask the question about LQ's exchange with House on that page, but not his earlier exchange on the same page with the "other House", aka Kuroi?

Scum theatre is a little more complicated than this. In this game there is only one goon per Scum faction so Scum have to be careful not to over expose themselves as PR. If Scum are to do Scum theatre its going to have to have some kind of structure to it so that things don't go awry. I expect Scum theatre in this game considering there is a GF and Alpha, however.

Why does a GF and Alpha mean scum theatre is more likely?

I mean Chip summed up a lot of my thoughts surrounding the scum theatre talk and I'm thinking he's town for it. It could be buddying but I doubt it'd be that close and unprompted. Plus I'm hardly an ideal person to buddy. I'd imagine scum would want to buddy either someone dangerous to them or someone widely townread.

Regardless, I don't get how more complicated scum theatre can be. It's staged to look like you're not partners, and so long as your partner isn't a complete newb and catches on to what you're doing I can't see a need to have pre planned?

[JaeReed]

Makes me less likely to believe she's as good as she thinks she is. mastin and Wisdom both use their experience or knowledge of others from other games to read players.

So Ranger, why are you such a threat to scum if you have no interest in a player's overall playstyle a
nd habits?

Please explain how all this focus on Ranger's purported abilities is helping find scum.

Ask Jae, King of Confbias.

Chip summed up my thoughts again here actually. This conversation is going nowhere.

Mastin is a different person to Ranger and that's all that I really feel you've proved. Which I could have told you from a glance at Ranger's posts when I first joined the site.

I'm not saying Ranger is town. I'm saying I don't care about her alignment. There's a big difference there. She'll either die by night kill or be burden of proficiency lynched. Either way, I know she buddied me and don't care. I don't think it matters.

I don't think her play is particularly town!Ranger but eh. She's Ranger. She made a good point that it's multiball. I don't think town need to sort her. If she's scum then she seems to have hinted that she's not being protected tonight. She stopped cozying up to me the moment I said I'd be happiest if she flipped town. I think she's feeling guilty knowing that she won't. Does it matter? Nah, scum will flip her. Or d3 she'll get lynched basically off policy.

That or I got too far into creepy fan territory on her :p that's a possibility.

[JaeReed]

Current scumreads: LQ, House (whoever replaces him), Ranger, Jae (Ranger and Jae may or may not be on the same scumteam)

You only have 4 scumreads when there's 6 scum. Why?

[JaeReed]

Current scumreads: LQ, House (whoever replaces him), Ranger, Jae (Ranger and Jae may or may not be on the same scumteam)

You only have 4 scumreads when there's 6 scum. Why?

Do you need all 6? Or is this a deflection from your name being prominently placed in the list along side ranger (odd)? And the two most scummy-seeming folks in the game?

You know, Pistachi0n may be 0n to something...

I have no idea what you're getting at here, to be honest.

The reason having only 4 is a flag is because there are more than 3 scum. Guess who only needs to search out one scum team? Yup, scum.

That said, I think it was Fire and Ice where someone got pushed for having only enough scum reads for one scum team and he ended up being town, I think. So I'm not really sure what to make of it in the end. I was more interested in the answer than the event, but nice discredit so she doesn't feel under any pressure to answer.

[JaeReed]

I've read up

VOTE: jae

this is scum.

I'm pretty sure you were already voting me.

Still not scum. If you're trying to meta read me off a newbie game then I recommend you stop and go look at C9++ because this is not a newbie game. Those are much easier. This is my open play. Learn it before you go the lazy route, at least.

You're still doing jack sweet shit by the way and it's pissing me off.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: dix

4 days. let's have some consolidation

VOTE: dix

Seems like a good place to go, I think.

What I'm not liking here is a lot of slips. I don't know why people are letting them go. "pretending to be mafia" indicating that he's mafia and knows the other person isn't. 642 "I know what indirectly begging the seer to check you looks like" also is very pointed in him thinking that if someone is scum they must be werewolf.

I don't think these could be general term type things because he'd either be using mafia/cop or ww/seer. He's using both in ways that I can't see him

not

being mafia.

@LQ don't remember if you wanted the explanation on where my scumread of you started and all that. Not sure you answered since you started rereading.

[JaeReed]

I've read up

VOTE: jae

this is scum.

I'm pretty sure you were already voting me.

On checking the vote count, I stand corrected. I guess I wasn't paying close enough attention to what you're doing, considering, y'know, that's been practically nothing.

[JaeReed]

VOTE: dix

4 days. let's have some consolidation

VOTE: dix

Seems like a good place to go, I think.

What I'm not liking here is a lot of slips. I don't know why people are letting them go. "pretending to be mafia" indicating that he's mafia and knows the other person isn't. 642 "I know what indirectly begging the seer to check you looks like" also is very pointed in him thinking that if someone is scum they must be werewolf.

I don't think these could be general term type things because he'd either be using mafia/cop or ww/seer. He's using both in ways that I can't see him

not

being mafia.

@LQ don't remember if you wanted the explanation on where my scumread of you started and all that. Not sure you answered since you started rereading.

Is that really a thing around here? People who are pedantic are team good and people who just joined the forum and are used to werewolf are scum? That's some really poor thinking.

But I sed you're being voted, that I pointed out your lack of reasoning for another post, and now you need to deflect; so I get it.

It's more see obvious slip => vote for obvious slip. It looks like a scumslip no matter how many times I read it. The only reason I didn't vote you earlier was because LQ looked scummy to me in a large way and someone else ended up vouching for you (I think it was Smither?) but the push on Chip was also really off.

In any case I agree with LQ that votes need to be consolidated at this point. I can't tell with LQ whether he's still scummy or not after seeing his meta with tone. Multiball is throwing me for a loop. I'm voting for a scumread I actually have some level of confidence in.

I don't care what you think about my vote on you, but I don't follow this "lack of reasoning" thing that you apparently pointed out? If you're talking about my questioning of pista only having 4 scumreads I addressed that, and I really don't think there's a lack of reasoning with that. It's multiball. Town is looking for 6 scum, and scum are looking for 3. It's a valid line to follow up on and evaluate her response. You were anxious to discredit that, though. Why?

[JaeReed]

@Jae: I find your hop on the Dix's wagon REALLY convenient. Why didn't you vote before if you thought he was scummy? I know you are cautious by nature, but this still pinged me for some reason.

Explained this already. I was finding LQ scummier than he was, and then someone had vouched for him from knowing him from another site. I decided I trusted less in that person than I trust in obv!scum being obv!scum (such as Kappy where I fucking tried to derail that lynch like a moron). Do you disagree that I should still vote what I find to be obvious scumslips? Why?

[JaeReed]

Current scumreads: LQ, House (whoever replaces him), Ranger, Jae (Ranger and Jae may or may not be on the same scumteam)

You only have 4 scumreads when there's 6 scum. Why?

This seems like a really odd thing to complain about.

It's day 1. Anyone would be lucky to have 2 accurate scum reads. You don't have to nail both full scum teams on day 1 to win, you just need to find at least 1 good scum to lynch.

This is correct. I don't expect accuracy, though. I expect someone to be searching for scum. If you're searching for scum as town you're searching for 6 scum. It's odd that she has only 4 possible scum. I acknowledge it's a weak tell, though. It's just that in the wiki when I was researching said the most you should have is double the amount of scum, and you shouldn't have less than the amount of scum. So even if they're weak townreads they're potential scum if they're on the lowest of your list, yeah?

Still just really need pista's own response to this. It would help in reading her since she's a low activity poster so I feel engaging her directly is the best way to read her.

[JaeReed]

Sads lack of a vote for a scum claim is skeevy

Smithereens looks like they are reaching a bit?

Also, almost 50 is vibiing town.

In other news, ranger still can't read me.

Doing a reread. This rings scumhunting for me. You get the Jae seal of approval.

Also rings as town for the last bit about Ranger not being able to read you.

[JaeReed]

As far as I know this was only regarding my scumread of you? That's one read. I can accommodate if that's what you want but there was no point earlier to me since I can't convince scum why they're scum. At least that's the theory I was running off, which is stated in the wiki.

I'm glancing through posts and notice that you keep mentioning wiki.

I hope your just using these as a guidance, and not a full on 100% truth?

Well mastin's articles do say to not use them as 100%. I've been straying from them a lot since my first game and doing a lot worse the more I try to rely on my own experience. So I should really just stick with the damn wiki because apparently I managed to obv!town myself in my first game and I don't even know what I did aside from play 100% from the theory I'd read.

I do find opens to be harder. I don't know if it's just keeping track of everyone or the fact that I've only been in opens with Ranger and the excess pressure causes me to buckle. In either case, you should probably know better considering I was apparently read as the SK in our last game to your benefit

In any case, D1 Bella I've learned is pretty sheepworthy. :3 Sheep D1 Bella. I think Ranger has the wrong read on her. (I STILL LOVE YOU RANGER I'M SORRY <3 <3 <3 YOU'RE THE BEST)

[JaeReed]

Ranger, why are you such a threat to scum if you have no interest in a player's overall playstyle and habits?

Because first-hand experience usually makes for a very seriously powerful teacher, second-hand experience is...not entirely worthless, but means very little in the grander scheme of things.

Errr my wiki has nothing? I'm new.

Jae proves themselves not to be the biggest possible Ranger fan ever with this, btw.
If Jae were, then--like me--Jae would update it usually on a daily (or at least weekly) basis!

<3
(Speaking of, I do need to update it, but I've been so busy that it's been on the backburner. Project for this weekend, after all my other duties are fulfilled, I suppose.)

I don't think ranger has the spare time to research other people's games.

Pretty much, yeah. I've sometimes had it, but don't right now. (And when I did, it didn't do me a lot of good anyway.)

Point A is correct going by theory.

As far as me being a fan.... Incorrect. I am not the biggest Ranger

imitator

because I do not update my wiki. The biggest

fan

, however, recognizes they could never even be a shadow of the true thing, and is generally content to bask in your glory while getting the occasional photograph/autograph to cherish for the rest of their life. <3 I have that with your blatant buddying this game. This will forever be my greatest achievement in Mafia.

I was buddied by Ranger. <3 <3 <3

[JaeReed]

As far as I know this was only regarding my scumread of you? That's one read. I can accommodate if that's what you want but there was no point earlier to me since I can't convince scum why they're scum. At least that's the theory I was running off, which is stated in the wiki.

I'm glancing through posts and notice that you keep mentioning wiki.

I hope your just using these as a guidance, and not a full on 100% truth?

Well mastin's articles do say to not use them as 100%. I've been straying from them a lot since my first game and doing a lot worse the more I try to rely on my own experience. So I should really just stick with the damn wiki because apparently I managed to obv!town myself in my first game and I don't even know what I did aside from play 100% from the theory I'd read.

I do find opens to be harder. I don't know if it's just keeping track of everyone or the fact that I've only been in opens with Ranger and the excess pressure causes me to buckle. In either case, you should probably know better considering I was apparently read as the SK in our last game to your benefit

In any case, D1 Bella I've learned is pretty sheepworthy. :3 Sheep D1 Bella. I think Ranger has the wrong read on her. (I STILL LOVE YOU RANGER I'M SORRY <3 <3 <3 YOU'RE THE BEST)

See this is what is making me think your scum. Your using WIKI experiences to make yourself obv!town, now understand it from my POV, you doing that is leading me to believe your scum, using wiki to make yourself look like obv!town. People will believe your town, and it's not just because you are believing your town, it's wiki making you look town.

I might actually reconsider my stance towards you, but for now, I am still going to maintain my paranoia on you, to a point, I'd actually consider you for a lynch. But that is dependant on what others do.

Because right now, we should be consolidating on a lynch/wagon, rather than spreading votes out like it's going out of fashion, and end up rushing in the last few days leading up to deadline to get a lynch over the line. And I did recall seeing someone mentioning a no lynch, to be honest, I can see a plus side, but it's heavily dependant on scum cross killing, which will make the no lynch a whole lot better, but if they don't and all hit town, we are left in a dire situation. So I'd rather not, I'd rather lynch highest scum read within town.

I literally just said I haven't been using the wiki as much as I did in my first game. I said my first game I was obv!town and I haven't used the wiki as much as my own experiences since then. Since then I have never managed to obv!town. I don't understand what you're doing but it's obviously not reading. In which case, singer was wrong, people aren't more likely to read your content if you're less verbose and more to the point. Good to know. Skimmers gonna skim.

Already trying to consolidate on a lynch. That's why I'm voting Dix. Smither mentioned no lynch, which tbh is a terrible idea. It robs town of info. We desperately need that because we don't know who the 6 scum are. 3 people at least know each others alignments. Town don't have that luxury. We need more information and we need our own say in who to kill. I'm not content with leaving kill choices up to scum.

Literally the only reasons I can see for advocating for a no lynch is if you're newb town that don't know any better (which is what I think Smither is) or you're scum. You're not a newb. Also your read on me is wrong, and based off weak skimming. You don't appear to be trying to game solve at all.

When I die tonight, I want it to be known that I want this slot flipped (and I

will

die tonight because scum think I'm scum, lol)

[JaeReed]

Current scumreads: LQ, House (whoever replaces him), Ranger, Jae (Ranger and Jae may or may not be on the same scumteam)

You only have 4 scumreads when there's 6 scum. Why?

Because it's Day 1 and there's a lot of noise on Day 1 and the four people I listed are the people who jumped out at me. I don't have 11 townreads either.

This is pretty much the answer I wanted to calm those alarm bells.

[JaeReed]

Sads lack of a vote for a scum claim is skeevy

Smithereens looks like they are reaching a bit?

Also, almost 50 is vibiing town.

In other news, ranger still can't read me.

Doing a reread. This rings scumhunting for me. You get the Jae seal of approval.

Also rings as town for the last bit about Ranger not being able to read you.

Eh? So all someone has to do for the Jae seal of approval is string together three vague reads ("looks like they are reaching a bit?", "vibing Town")?

And how is thinking that Ranger can't read her AI? She might as well have just said "I am Town". Expressing that sentiment in a slightly different way doesn't make it Towner.

Not quite. You know I like my tone & gut reads. I like the way she went about expressing it here. It's like how you claimed you didn't mind being lynched in trees vs how kappy did it. There are town and non town ways to express that Ranger can't read her and that was a town way imo.

[JaeReed]

So out of curiosity what's this magical case you guys have? I wanna see it so I know which of you is dumb and which is scum.

[JaeReed]

Ok so... Wagon analysis time.

Hiplop and Kop's votes on me are terrible, but in a not really reading the thread terrible rather than an alignment indicative terrible, I think.

Smithereens vote on me is terribad town. He's decided I'm scum and is deathtunneling but in a townie manner.

Pista I was townreading up to the recent posts. Kuroi is town I think and the quick back and forth there gave me a scumlean on her because of how she dealt with it (I didn't see scumminess in the initial post that kuroi called scummy but her calling him scum for pointing out that he thought her post was scummy pinged me. That did not seem like a town reaction at all).

A50's vote feels skeevy to me. He was engaging me earlier as though he was townreading me. Or at least that's the impression I got. He also hasn't done all that much this game. I kind of expected a little bit more from him. I know we might be edging into BoP territory here, but if we're looking for scum doctors he is probably one, I think. He's been trying to skate by on a lot of nothing posts and his jump onto my wagon felt scummish.

DixC vote on me is null as it's self preservationistic.

Pretty sure LQ is town here, also. When I flip town, don't lynch him on your weak as shit "not the same faction" arguments.

[JaeReed]

So out of curiosity what's this magical case you guys have? I wanna see it so I know which of you is dumb and which is scum.

I've already said that I don't like your interactions with Ranger. You also have the same overvigilant thing going on that House does.

This is a really weak reason. Town buddy just as often as scum. What you need to look at there is what each of us were trying to achieve with that, if anything.

You seem to me to just want to lynch the noisy players. Why do you dislike hyper vigilantism? Why do you feel that's a scum trait? Why do you want to remove the players who are putting the most content in to the thread?

[JaeReed]

I feel like I want to vote NM.. Hmm

Why? I don't feel like that lynch will give us any information since I haven't really seen much of note from him yet. Preferably D1 we want a strong chance of flipping scum while also being informative, I think. Do you disagree with my theory?

[JaeReed]

DixC wagon is awful

Rereading. This is correct.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: A50

This is actually a better wagon. Based off what I'm seeing in my reread and my analysis of my own wagon.

His entry to the game would have been townish if not for the whole thing about being at L3 before even posting and being good at obv!towning. Then when kuroi claimed scum he made this big deal about fosing but not voting that just reads really weird and like he doesn't want to get flak for it.

When kuroi claimed the three of them were scum with house he ran this "who else???" Comment instead of running with the onvious joke. It seems really disingenuous.

In retrospect (and I can't believe I forgot this) "slips" such as using mafia when you meant to say town and such are said on the wiki to not read too far into. I would assume this applies to dixC's use of mafia instead of scum and seer instead of investigative/cop/cop or seer. What he was getting at with the first appears to be just a vote for claiming scum, and the second questioning whether alpha/godfather. I still need to read more in this reread to figure out if i still think he's scum, but my slips mean Jack shit.

[JaeReed]

Jae, I agree with you, but two days.

If you're really certain we can switch to Almost50, who is definitely scum, I'll switch to him, but I'm not risking a no-lynch.

If we can swing the lynch over there in that time I would definitely prefer it. I don't have any disillusions that those on my own wagon will move, so worst case scenario you could hammer me for the information lynch. It's less than ideal flipping town, but I'm not as sure on dixc since what I'm reading right now is more pinging me as weird, rather than actually scummy.

So I'm certain as I can be at this stage that Almost50 is scum, and willing to eat the lynch if we can't manage to swing that. That's the best I can give you, though, I'm sorry. Just that if we can't get it today I wanna go down making it known that he's my lynch preference for tomorrow.

[JaeReed]

To clarify, I'm at L2. We would need another person to agree to switch over to my wagon in the case we can't get an A50 lynch.

[JaeReed]

DixC wagon is awful, JR is definitely scum. I've been spectating, but I am going to re read now.

For now
VOTE: JR

DixC wagon is awful

Rereading. This is correct.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: A50

Wait, Shotty replaces in (Welcome aboard!) and says the Dix wagon is awful, and doesn't give reasons. Right away you agree and take your vote off Dix, ostensibly after rereading?

BUT you ignore the second thing he said ("JR is definitely scum") and his vote on you.

Could you walk us through that please?

For the record, I'm nullscum or worse on Dix atm, but I like my vote on the House slot. Will change to avoid a no-lynch. More likely to Dix than to Jae at this point, but Dix hasn't really posted enough for me to get a very clear read on him.

Yeah I decided to do a reread while shotty was for a fresh perspective and final thoughts and analysis. It's the least I can do at this stage along with analyzing my own wagon and going out voting my top scumread. I unvoted when I reached the point that I was remembering as a slip. I realized it wasn't a slip. LQ was correct with his back and forth with House over that.

I can't sort shotty based off that one post. I don't know if I think he's misreading me as town or misreading me as scum. That's another reason a reread at this point in the game is a good thing. I'll have more of an idea where his mind is at to sort him.

[JaeReed]

So I'm reading Kuroi, Karnos, Chip, LQ, House, Bella, Smither as town with the strength of the reads in that order. Kuroi and karnos are equally town. LQ and House are likewise equal in strength.

[JaeReed]

So out of curiosity what's this magical case you guys have? I wanna see it so I know which of you is dumb and which is scum.

I've already said that I don't like your interactions with Ranger. You also have the same overvigilant thing going on that House does.

This is a really weak reason. Town buddy just as often as scum. What you need to look at there is what each of us were trying to achieve with that, if anything.

You seem to me to just want to lynch the noisy players. Why do you dislike hyper vigilantism? Why do you feel that's a scum trait? Why do you want to remove the players who are putting the most content in to the thread?

I don't want to lynch the noisy players--like Almost, or Kurio. Ranger hasn't been very noisy this game (especially compared to other games I've played with her) and I'm scumreading her. I dislike the something out of nothing reads--I'm not sure how to elaborate or explain what I'm talking about, because I'm not very good with words, but I mean like "there are 6 scum and you only have 4 scumreads, why?"

I feel like Almost and Kuroi haven't been as noisy as me and Ranger though. At least to the extent where useless conversation was generated that did nothing to particularly help anyone read us.

Are you scumreading Ranger for her reads, her buddying of me, or her difference in play to her town meta?

Hm, ok I'll try to explain that as best I can. When I first joined not too long ago I read somewhere on the wiki that you should never have too many or too few scumreads. That at the minimum there should be as many as there are scum, and if there aren't then you're not scumhunting/townhunting enough. I thought the reason you could have 4 would be 3 for the opposing scum faction as you + one for insurance. If that makes sense? It wasn't a strong tell because I've seen someone flip town after being accused of it when spectating another multiball, but I felt it should be followed up on nonetheless. If you said you were townreading everyone else it would have been a scumclaim to me.

It did indeed end up being a useless question, but I felt at the time there was a possibility something could come of it and so it was worth questioning.

[JaeReed]

I'm scumreading Ranger because of her difference to her towngame meta. She isn't being as active or aggressive as she usually is. I'm not scumreading you because of aggression, I'm scumreading you because of

baseless

aggression.

I disagree on it being baseless. I believe that all my questions have the potential to serve a purpose or I wouldn't ask them (disregarding all the noise surrounding Ranger as that's just me being weird on a personality level and I'm surprised she entertained me with that).

I feel like my townread of House is going to be directly against how you read him.

I like his aggression and pedanticism. To me he comes across as actively trying to solve the game and I haven't noticed him letting anyone slip by his notice. He's willing to reconsider his reads and tells when he's presented with logical cases against them, too.

He's also not playing like someone who has buddies to protect or someone who is being protected by buddies.

[JaeReed]

Point 3 - LQ, I'm the likely flip today. I am going to be confirmed town in like 2 days, maybe less. Of course I'm going to put out my reads on my own wagon for when I'm confirmed town. I really doubt 2 days is enough time to swing the lynch away to my current top scumread, but I'm gonna try, because I do want to go down with it known that he is my number 1 scumread.

Point 4, how is it an incomplete answer? I'm not seeing how I didn't answer Chip's questions.
Point 1, I really don't think that's a good enough reason to go for a low information lynch.
Point 2, yeah, I did find that weird, but rereading I'm not seeing it as weird scummy or weird townie. Just weird. He's just making no sense to me there as either alignment with his "puts me at number 2 of my list of people to kill" comment. It's NAI, I think. If we were stretching we could say it was defensive, but it just comes across as plain weird more than anything to me.

I'm scumreading pista btw.

LQ I don't understand you at all. What reasonings are you seeing for me as scum right now to hop off the counterwagon and try to get another one going instead of pushing hard on the DixC wagon? I know I'm getting lynched today if a DixC wagon doesn't go through - problem is there are ways in which he could flip town, I think. With Almost, I am pretty sure he is scum.

[JaeReed]

Jae, theatrical was the word I was looking for last night.

Playstyle difference, I think. What was scummy about kuroi pointing out him finding your post about who you'd prefer to lynch scummy? Is that also something you found to be theatrical? Can you explain how?

[JaeReed]

Jae,

if what you say is true, I have to say I really expect and ISO case on Almost50 at this point. Almost is like one of my top Town reads so I don't think I will be voting them today without some really strong evidence to back it up.

I've already stated why I prefer an almost lynch. I'll try to explain it in a better way.

Almost is an experienced player that has an ISO full of a fat load of nothing. All he has is fluff and a lot of theory talk. I do not think he has been legitimately scumhunting but I do think he is trying to look busy. It looks like he's trying to avoid both the lynch and night kill and do nothing to help town.

He's too experienced to go the route of "Dixc scumslipped" and yet that's kinda what he was riding on early game. Along with "kuroi is scum for not letting that pass" which is honestly just weak reasoning considering you're not supposed to look into the words so much as the motivation behind it. DixC made a vote based on a scum claim joke. That's literally all that was. A50 is trying hard to get towncred early so he can coast. And it's working.

His jump onto my wagon was skeevy as previously he hadn't stated an opinion either way. This comes back to him doing nothing but post about theory and general NAI stuff. Now he's trying hard to discredit on top of that when I clearly stated my reasonings and was looking for the scum on my wagon before rereading since I'm gonna be lynched.

[JaeReed]

Townreading: Karnos, Smither, pista, Kuroi, Almost, Kop, Charl
Scumreading: DixC, LQ, Bella

So I'm reading Kuroi, Karnos, Chip, LQ, House, Bella, Smither as town with the strength of the reads in that order. Kuroi and karnos are equally town. LQ and House are likewise equal in strength.

I don't care much about your "out of nowhere" scum read on me as soon as I voted you (to me it confirms my read on you, although I'm not sure who the other two of your team might be, but I may get a clearer picture upon rereading).

Here's what I want though: I want you to -please- walk me through the development of your reads on both LQ & Bella, who seem to have moved from your scum reads to your town reads unnoticed.

You won't find my scum buddies. I don't have any. I hope you'll at least save your reread for tomorrow after I've flipped town so you don't waste your time.

The reachout here is awkward. I'll do this when I get to a computer though. I will note my reread I actually went through more of LQ's linked games and he's being re-evaluated because I was meta tone reading his aggression as town. His tone seems to change a lot between games though given a larger sample.

[JaeReed]

Jae, theatrical was the word I was looking for last night.

Playstyle difference, I think. What was scummy about kuroi pointing out him finding your post about who you'd prefer to lynch scummy? Is that also something you found to be theatrical? Can you explain how?

Huh? No? I said I was townreading Kuroi.

I don't want to vote Dix, I will if there are less than 24 hours left and he has the most votes. I'd strongly prefer Jae or LQ.

This reeks of scum.

This reeks of scum.

I'm talking about this, pista. I also don't recall you saying you were townreading him so much as using him as an example of not wanting to lynch noisy players.

[JaeReed]

Pista I was townreading up to the recent posts.

I'm scumreading pista btw.

[img]animated-eye-image-0338.gif[/img]

That makes 2: myself & pista switched to scum reads after we decided to vote you. Where you just buddying and hoping we won't be joining your wagon?

@LQ:

Your vote is not doing anything there. Switch it to Jae, please. Let's see if he switches you back to the scum reads or not!!!!

Incorrect, pista switched to scum because of the thing with kuroi. Her other stuff is still town where I'm up to in the re-read though.

You switched to scum from the way you went about hopping on my wagon and from the fact that I literally remember you doing no actual scumhunting all game. My reread is supporting this. All you've been doing is theory talk and fluff posting.

[JaeReed]

I do not like the almost 50 wagon or the jae one. Anyone up for a pista lynch?

Also, if we can leave nm alive til day three I'll sort him.

Why are you townreading Almost?

[JaeReed]

Oh, lol. You're fine then. I was really confused because where I'm at in my reread is like "but town?" And I kept looking at that and going "but scum?" >.< makes more sense if you thought he was House.

Meh, anyway, I'm going to flip town and I know I'm shit at wagon analysis. There's probably one or two scum if I wanted to gamble numbers. Just please analyze it properly after I flip? I still want time to finish my reread and get final thoughts out.

I do think my lynch is the correct informational lynch, and if I could get my top scumread lynched instead that'd be nice because he has more of a chance at flipping scum than I do (at least to me, I get that's not the case to the rest of you). I don't think it's gonna happen but that is what it is.

[JaeReed]

@mod replace me out, something came up sorry

Okay I fixed it, I can stay now, don't replace me

Why is the biggest wagon only 4 votes in a 17 player game?

Hey House, who's scum?

Will try to catch up in the next coupe days

VOTE: DixC

VOTE: KuroiXHF

For pretending to be Mafia.

This feel super scum

This is NM's entire input to the game after a week. If he is Town, we need him to contribute more. Also, those first two posts worry me. He asks to replace out because something came up, and then just one minute later, he has fixed it and wants to stay in? Why kind of problem that can be fixed in a minute could make you want to replace out? We need to hear about that. I have a theory, but I don't want to state it yet.

The first two posts are likely rl stuff. We don't need to know that.

I recommend you check NM's meta. You're not going to like it, but this is how he plays. What you need to look for is what his thought process could be behind his actions. I've found him to be an open book despite low content when I've spectated games.

[JaeReed]

I don't really like these wagon choices.

I'm actually thinking that this mindset could be scum. Yeah it occurred to me that we're probably in an all town lynch pool, however it also occurred to me that if this is the case, the scum team would be highly likely to point it out for town cred later on. I probs wouldn't be able to resist distancing myself from both wagons and complaining that we're lynching town if I were scum.

A) Scum don't know who is town.
B) Karnos is town. I am 100% convinced of this.
C) If you think the potential wagons are "probably all town" then you should be doing something about that.

[JaeReed]

@Jae

A) Refer to ^
B) Please elaborate. 100% is a really significant number.
C) That was my paranoia speaking, if there's someone here I'd have to lynch, I'd want it to be you.

A and C are fine. What are you going to do when I flip town?

As far as B. I would be the game on Karnos being town. 100% town.

[JaeReed]

I'm aware I'm running out of time here so I'll just state that I never finished rereading fully but am pretty happy with where I'm at here if people are impatient and just want their flip. IIRC my wagon was essentially started around where LQ's fell off due to the hammer reaction that wasn't a town reaction and I don't think he even thought he was honestly hammered. That's worth looking into. I won't do that for you because I'm honestly a little bit pissed off that I'm putting this much effort in when I'm about to face my first mislynch.

Spoiler: LQ

Disliked his response to Ranger's lists. Especially for someone who has played with Ranger before. He should know exactly what her lists are for, and he didn't react in a townish manner, I think. More like he was trying to throw shade on her reads from early on.

His reaction to hiplop's vote was hyper aggressive in a way one wouldn't expect. Again, it didn't feel like a town reaction; it feels like scum annoyed at being caught for the wrong reasons. He didn't think he'd done anything scummy with his RVS vote, nor in his response to Ranger's reads.

The back and forth between him and Kuroi is interesting in that it feels like Kuroi is trying to reach out to him. I think that's town leaning on Kuroi's side as he's trying to get LQ to analyse what's happening in the game thread instead of just being, as pista would put it, baselessly aggressive.

His reaction to his own hammer. This one is interesting because a lot of people unvoted him for it. However, it more read to me as "why am I being run up to a lynch" rather than "omg I was hammered". I don't think he believed he was hammered. This is further supported by the fact that when he said House's vote was terrible, he

explicitly stated it wasn't as bad as a hammer then later quoted someone saying it was supposed to be the hammer vote

. I can't explain this any clearer than what I just put it. I don't think he thought he was hammered. He came across as being angry at being lynched for the wrong reasons.

Now, as to why I was thinking he was town? Simple. I read the two games he posted for Chip Butty, but not the others. I skimmed them for general tone. In those two games he seemed a lot "softer" in tone as scum, and a lot more "aggressive" as town. Since then during my reread I've checked the other games he linked for tone and realized tone reading his meta is useless. Not to mention this is multiball. Yeah, I townread him earlier based entirely off meta tone. I never claimed to be a goddamn genius.

Spoiler: Smither

This one is interesting. His ideas on how to scumhunt and just...everything...are so bad that I just can't see him being scum. I can't explain it too much further than that. I guess I agree with Ranger that it's a really strong gut read. He's town. Terrible scumhunter, but he's trying and he's town. That's all I really have here, though.

He did base his scumhunting off LQ's wagon, though. I suppose that is something to look into if you want. I just think he's town and it's kinda a waste of time.

Spoiler: Ranger

Could swing either way, honestly.

I dislike how little effort she's put into this game. She went out of her way to make me feel happy so that was nice of her.

It bothers me that she's made no effort to go into her reads even as the day dragged on or it looked like a mislynch was nearing. Just nothing. I'm sure she has her reasons, I'm just hoping it's not because she's waiting to talk in her scum PT or something

Spoiler: Bella

Her RVS was meh. Looked like she decided pre-game to vote me there so whatever. I know Ranger disliked her initially from that but eh.

Her first post took a few stances based on what had happened in the game, with the comment about Ranger not being able to read her still. I liked this for town because I feel she'd be a little more self conscious as scum to the point where it'd circle around to

not

making that comment. I think scum!Bella would have tried to ignore Ranger's read originally and attempt to do more townie things, knowing that Ranger can and has read her wrong as either alignment. She didn't. She commented on it. This is a Bella who doesn't need to hide her alignment. She's town.

Notable things are her defense of House and chat with me. She's been pretty consistent in thinking that House wasn't being scumread for anything worth being scumread over. Her chat with me I still maintain was her being lazy. Maybe I'm sensitive about it since I expected her to read me correctly no matter what. It felt to me like her head wasn't in the game, though, especially with the Charl vote where I am certain she was being lazy, because there are better candidates than someone who I think she should be able to read given a little time. Maybe it was part of a reaction test, I don't know. It just felt hella lazy to me at that point in the game. Since then I think she's done better.

Also, personal note... You said something to the effect of "more posting like that and I'll be able to read you"... So you're endorsing me drunkposting? ;p Since then I've only drunkposted and sickposted. It looks like you're townreading me based off those xD Good to know I can town up to you only when my mind is muddled. I hope you win, regardless of alignment <3

Spoiler: hiplop

Probable scum.

He hardcore avoided a newbie game I was in when he was scum. I don't have much else. If he was town then by this stage he knows this is my town game, yet did not unvote. Lynch candidate but not top priority imo.

Spoiler: Almost

I've talked about this. Don't be lazy. Look it up.

Spoiler: Kuroi

Initial joking was good vibes. The willingness to overlook what obviously was not a slip so much as a newbie making a vote based on him joking was not at all scummy like Almost tried to make out. Out of all that it feels like scum!Almost thinks Kuroi is a threat and wants to get rid of him. His response to Almost carrying on about him allowing DixC a pass gave me good vibes for town, also.

The reachout to LQ was super townie. If you're town you don't want a potential mislynch. The subsequent vote I also found to be fine because LQ came out of that worse off. (where my read at the time became confscum)

Since then I think everything has been pretty town looking. I get that he's an experienced player so I'll leave it up to you guys whether I've been manipulated seven ways to sunday with this read, but I think this is pretty town.

Spoiler: Pista

Disliked her vote for House for making a valid enquiry. It was terrible but I'm inclined to townread her for the no nonsense way she went about it.

What followed that was the back and forth with House which held the same tone of "I don't give a fuck. This is what I always do and you're trying to push a non-tell." which I like a lot. It seems pretty genuine.

While her read on me is wrong I do think her analysis is generally pretty solid and sheepworthy considering I'm pretty sure she's town. Her play isn't coming across as the play of someone who knows anyone elses alignment (so basically, I don't think she has scumbuddies, therefore isn't scum).

Spoiler: House's slot

The hyper aggressiveness is probably what I'd address first here. This is NAI I think for House.

Anyway, I liked his response to hiplop's scumclaim in RVS because it was my initial thought when reading through, though I decided not to go that route in the end. I was tossing up whether he could be LQ's partner because I thought the interaction was a little over the top, but my reread I actually liked House's willingness to listen to reason and re-evaluate.

He hasn't been playing like someone who has buddies to protect, and has been annoyingly relentless in his attacks. I think this guy is town, yo.

Spoiler: shotty

Based off what he has so far? Probable scum. He's happy to leave this mislynch where it is and so he just put me as a "top scumread" when even he knows it's bullshit. By the time he read up if he was actually reading he would have known I was town.

From where I read up to in my reread also, wasn't a big fan of creature, either.

Spoiler: Chip

Post 84 is weird and worth looking into if one of those flip scum. I don't think either will, but covering bases here. Otherwise it looks pretty good analysis-wise, I think.

His siding with me in the argument against House is again a bit weird but could just be that he's following my logic there. Not sure if it's indirect buddying or just following my logic in that since we're both newbish. Leaning the latter, and therefore, leaning townish for being on the same line of thought.

I really liked his breakdown of why LQ is scummy. Didn't like his unvote after the fake hammer considering Charl already unvoted to give LQ some breathing space. Stuff I've seen since then I can't really see coming from him as scum, though. I explained in Kuroi's spoiler that I find reachouts are more likely to come from town here, since scum really only need to not have a lynch within their faction and so will care less about whether town or scum are lynched than town will.

His poking at the free townread from LQ I liked as well. He showed paranoia of being buddied by scum.

Spoiler: Karnos

This is so town that I feel there's no need to explain. Deal with it.

Spoiler: DixC

This is just weird. I can't make sense of this person's posts in the slightest, really. It gives me a headache to try. I stick by my wagon analysis in that his vote on me is purely survivalistic and NAI.

Spoiler: Charl

Potential scum. His play just seems off. I can't put my finger on it. Normally he's VI and he might be trying to change that because it was getting him run up a lot (and mislynched in some cases). Lynching him at this stage is just purely lazy, though.

Spoiler: NM

I remember sad slight was slight town. NM right now hasn't done all that much, but give him time. His motives are generally pretty clear if you're looking for them.

Spoiler: Kop

Scum. Even as 3rd party he did a better job than he's doing here at trying to look town. His vote on hiplop was weird, his reads were really off, and his vote on me was just flat scum.

[JaeReed]

B) Karnos is town. I am 100% convinced of this.

I really don't like this though.
VOTE: JaeReed
L-1

No offense, you and Smithereens are both 100% awful at scumhunting.

Also, still 100% confident this is town. If this slot gets lynched I will be

very

pissed off with town.

[JaeReed]

When you say X is town/scum, and don't say why, what do you expect people to do? Sheep you?

All the other players are largely giving substantiated votes from what I can see. I get the feeling you're avoiding getting dragged into a discussion on the issue, which I find odd.

You should sheep her. You're awful at this and she is actually good at it. My idolization of her is not for unfounded reasons.

[JaeReed]

A) Scum don't know who is town.

They have a much better idea who is town than town themselves, though.

This is correct. Doesn't mean they want to potentially be associated with the other scumteam and have themselves pulled into question if the person flips scum. It's too risky a move, as karnos pointed out.

[JaeReed]

Strong Town, full confidence - karnos
Strong Town, pretty confident - Chip, Kuroi, Smither, Pista
Town, fair confidence - Bella, Vedith
Nulltown, low confidence - NM
Unsure - Ranger, DixC (can't sort DixC and no one could trust my read on Ranger anyway)
Scumlean, low confidence - Charl, hiplop
Scum, fair confidence - Almost, Kop
Scum, high confidence - LQ, shotty

Officially ready to be hammered. I may continue my reread since I didn't get to finish it all (got just over halfway) but these are my thoughts and reads across two posts to be found easily when I flip.

[JaeReed]

Yeah. Jae needs to live.

This is all I need. VOTE: JaeReed

@Karnos this is not necessarily a scumclaim. I need you to realize this. Judge him on the rest of his actions and not off this, please.

[JaeReed]

Officially ready to be hammered. I may continue my reread since I didn't get to finish it all (got just over halfway) but these are my thoughts and reads across two posts to be found easily when I flip.

Obviously I'm not continuing my reread now.

@Ranger, Kuroi, Bella - Don't be upset <3 this game was upsetting me anyway. First mislynch.

[JaeReed]

I think it means a lot of us will be looking at your iso very carefully.

You need to look at everything he does in context. He hammered me because he thinks Kuroi is scum and Kuroi doesn't want me lynched. Make sure you read into the reasoning for the action instead of the action itself or you won't be able to read him correctly and will just jump to "he's scum because he makes no sense". If you can't make sense of his actions then please refer to one of the more experienced players that you think are town and just sheep their read on him.

[JaeReed]

Grats wolves!