Election! | GAME OVER
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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declare: treasurer"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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hmm alright these posts feel better than that first one, I don't wanna continue bludgeoning anymore. I was TRing Alisae too prior to today, so I feel you on that, but I throw my reads in the trash in the face of mech evidence"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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which is prob what Bingle wants to check so at some point, maybe tomorrow when I'm on a plane again, I'll try to find a "late game guilty" sample"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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Bingle I think what you're missing is that I've been getting progressively more and more frustrated with the combo of this PL either not agreeing with me on things or being notably dead/absent
like the main reason I've been more forward today is because it feels like if I don't this game is going to be the same as D2 and D3 and I am actually tired of compromising, it has not worked
also I would dispute that I'm not still being analytical, I've been engaging with sheep and furtive and even thought I caught you on a slip briefly
also also if you're referring to my points about Alisae when you say "semantics", it's absolutely not a "distraction", it's an argument about how Alisae is playing for public opinion rather than playing to speak e's truth. If you're referring to something else then I'd like to know what you mean"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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And what is the point of this comment? I could understand it as good natured ribbing if you think I'm town and are just making a joke at me, but if you think I'm scum it feels like shading me over something that's non-indicative at all, if not straight up town-indicative?In post 4227, Bingle wrote:At this point, the pt is pretty much useless anyway, except as a way to confuse people outside of the pt and to give GL ample opportunity to find things that aren’t actually scum slips."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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also just saying it's a "distraction" is kind of a joke itself, like what am I distracting from? What are you bringing to the table that were all supposed to be listening and paying attention to instead?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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anyways I gotta do wedding pt 2 now so Ima give the thread space and be off for the rest of the day probably
and clearly me doing volume posting isn't getting results I want either so I'm gonna put up after I shut up and reread the game and try to present some Grand Theories of what happened D1 and D2 that we haven't revisited in light of all the townflips
enjoy your weekend errbody"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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ok, but the issue is - nobody except scum really knows what happened or whether there's a failed doc. I think Alisae lying is clearly the most likely explanation, it seems that opinion is not widely shared, how do I go about convincing people it's the most likely explanation? I could do the math, ask people to assign probabilities to P(scum have a role blocker), P(scum role blocker is active on N3) - (does it need funding? is it X-shot? would they have used it on N1 or N2?), and P(scum correctly guessed Alisae was doc), and then do the actual math to show the compounding unlikelihood once you take all those things together. but historically I've found people don't like math arguments and get annoyed at me for making them. I've tried just yelling about it a bit and was told that's "bad vibes". I don't know what other kind of argument you'd be expecting me to make about how likely it is that there's a failed doc, it's kind of a thing you either believe or you don't, so the next best thing IMO is to start highlighting the scumminess in Alisae's play.In post 4233, Bingle wrote: Even from a position where you believe that the failed doc is a 100% case, the thing you should be arguing there is that there was a failed doc. Trying to get Ali limmed on the back of "Ali is trying to live" is not a good look at all. I'm not sure if that's an ineffective argument tell or an overblown performance which is the whole point behind asking for the meta.
on that point, it's a bit more than just Alisae is trying to live, it's that Alisae'splayis designed to live rather than find or push scum. Why does Alisae scumread me? Has Alisae actually cased me anywhere or attempted to engage with players who seem to be townreading me? Do you think Alisae would be scumreading me if I came into today townreading em and pushing some other random slot?
Further,howIs Alisae trying to engage with me or push eis view of the game? E's trying to imply that the opening post states that an ability to negate a doc protect exists when it doesn't actually state that (3918, 3920, 3928). Note how Alisae shifts the argument to some bullshit about "you think this is a FTC setup" which is just intrinsically dishonest when the limited treasury and fact that weelect a player of unknown alignment to be copimmediately makes it not a FTC setup. And then there's the "Alisae is not speaking to or about me in the way that town speaks about their scumreads" point which I feel I'm either not explaining well or it's not landing with people - to try to summarize it again there should be an evident contrast between how I engage with Alisae where I'm either actually laying out my thinking as to why e is scum orproviding opportunities to explain emself via pointed questions(3906, 3991, 4091) - like, these posts aren't just rhetorical, I'd generally expect town to be able to elucidate why they think it's "brain off" to assume the failed doc means doc is likely to be scum, or what they would expect town!me to do and how that differs from what I'm doing, or why they're making a post like 4089. But Alisae doesn't engage with these fronts, instead I'm just met with meaningless antagonism like "you're a wolf, so" (4016), "I'm letting your posts speak for yourself" (4086), "killing GL would be poggers" (4264) and any attempt to engage at a deeper level is just ignored. That is how scum plays when they want to throw dirt on the loud voice against them and win the charisma game to the rest of the PL."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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tbh I ran for treasurer explicitly so killing furtive wouldn't be off the table today if Alisae does towntell or we decide to let em be cop (which I'm against, but history shows I do not have a ton of sway this game). If we wind up electing furtive treasure that will say a lot itself especially if I wind up limmed instead, so just vote who genuinely think is more likely to be town, I'm not gonna give a speech"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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on the meta point Bingle - this is not exactly what you asked for, but I think it's actually a compelling example. Some years back I played a newbie game where scum!Titus quick hammered the claimed doctor on D1. In my mind, that's an objective scum claim, so I entered D2 pushing Titus hard, and was met with a bunch of newbies not understanding how scummy Titus was. I got riled up and pissed off and town eliminated me instead.
here's my opening post on D2, and I encourage you to read through the thread and watch what happens when I'm met with pushback, how frustrated I get and how much I desperately keep trying to appeal to people about how obviously scum Titus is and why she needs to go. It's the same thing happening here."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I also make the exact same callout about how scum!Titus starts immediately arguing and discrediting ME simply for scumreading her, instead of trying to find scum
the parallels are good here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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oh and I want to respond to this cause it deserves a point - I think I would get to there if I trusted that everyone agreed on Aliscum, but the sense that I'm getting is that this is very much not Consensus, so my primary drive right now is to lead and push the thread towards going towards my preferred elimination for once and keeping the spotlight on my main suspectIn post 4226, Bingle wrote: If anything, I’d expect town you to be more interested in unpacking what aliscum would mean than trying to push through an elimination you clearly expected to go through without any assistance.
you're not wrong that I expected Aliscum to be a more common sentiment than it seems to be, but that's not scum!indicative at all, that's just how I feel about any time a player claims a night action that doesn't align with what happens, the level 0 and most likely world is that the player lied, and I'm genuinely surprised people are so willing to entertain alternate ideas where Alisae is town without any real evidence for them and without any townvibes at all from Alisae today.
it meant a lot to me when sheep said he agreed Alisae's posts were performative cause I feel like I'm on such an island trying to call attention to it and being met with either complete silence, being told I'm wrong or bad vibes. like if anything it almost makes me nervous that Iamwrong and scum is WKing Alisae, but Alisae emself doesn't seem suspicious at all about people defending em (completely ignored my post when I tried to ask Alisae what e thought of sheep defending em) and so if Alisae is actually town and isn't even remotely worried about situations where I'm town then this game is already lost because I truly cannot and do not want to see a world where Alisae is not immediately flipped next if I'm flipped today"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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what do you think is the risk if scum is treasurer? we know how it works now and the current state of the treasury is public knowledge. whoever is treasurer is going to be leashed and we can even hash it out in the main thread instead of the council thread as others have stated. Someone whose actions go against the consensus plan of the town would be scumclaiming.In post 4286, furtiveglance wrote: YOU TOWNREAD ME MORE BUT WANT TO PUT GL IN CHARGE OF OUR NIGHT ACTIONS
...right?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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also no need for apologies here, that is awesome news, congratulations to your cousin! I hope it was a grand celebration!In post 4282, Bingle wrote: I spent the day celebrating the news that my cousin is officially in remission from what we expected to be terminal cancer and didn’t get to this. Sorry."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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kinda like if a scum doc just docs no one to let the cop die and then fights to worm out of the elimination the next day? wouldn't that be exactly what a scum doc would do?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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alright so I've skimmed up to be caught up and I have a Lot Of Thoughts but I am too exhausted right now to actually do them justice and type them all outIn post 4298, Bingle wrote: The probability of scum being able to actively fuck with this result if Ali is town is actually pretty high, imo. Which leads back to: would Ali, who was willing to risk eir slot to kill a cop fake the result failing instead of saying "I thought scum would assume the cop was protected so I used a watcher or whatever on AD. Bingle visited him and made the kill."
Which leads us back to: who is the scumteam if Ali is scum here?
I disagree with you somewhat on the mechanics portion of this post and will go into that more later but I see your point of view and really appreciate you writing it out it resolves a lot of paranoia/worry I had about you and I feel where you're coming from
I have A Thought on the scum team but I want to reread some parts of the game before truly committing to it but I will say this - I don't really believe furtive is scum at all, as frustrated as I am with him I think he's town. And the thought I am subsequently landing on is that all the gamestate weirdness I've been struggling with in the town!furtive world, makes a lot more sense if LLD is mafia that I've been misreading the whole game. There's a few things rolling around in my brain about her play and the interactions with Alisae and my push on em today that don't feel right, and it's still possible I'm just paranoid/stupid and she's town, but a wolf!LLD could be a missing puzzle piece that fits a lot of things into place"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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namely I was thinking about this post earlier and maybe I'm way off here but... I kinda don't understand why LLD would need to ask this, when I think about it. Alisae already said e was fully funded. If LLD is town and Alisae is scum, the main benefit is to prevent scum!Alisae from changing e's story later, but I dunno I am kinda feeling a vibe that it's a S/S interaction. I don't think I can properly articulate exactly why at the moment cause sleepy brain, but I'll be around tomorrow and I'll try to unpack a lot more
"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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In post 4349, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: What, as a townie, is your first reaction? Mine is always "do things by the book". If someone and I are involved in a situation where they have information where they could choose to lie or tell the truth (1v1 me or go a different angle) I will always force them to immediately claim it for the sake of not allowing that to be an option for them to try.
That's exactly the thing though, it just feels lifeless and by the books specifically because you know town!LLD would do it, and what I don't get from it is a sense of any impetus of figuring out what happened beyond that, which makes asking Alisae to confirm feel weird. Alisae already said e was fully funded, you made em confirm it explicitly, then e does and your response is just "well simple explanation is you're scum but that would be scum claiming" and then you just... don't do anything.In post 4350, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.
like if you're town and you think Alisae is town, some bullshit must have happened. why are you not expressing that you think bullshit happened? and if you think Alisae is scum, why are you lettingmetake all the heat for pushing em while you're sitting around not helping push em? and if you think FURTIVE is scum, why are you letting him rail on me and push nonsense in the thread, why are you not pushing him, why again are you letting the thread be dominated by me pushing Alisae?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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this is also a weird reactionIn post 4350, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: Of note, this is the SECOND time today in which you have been pushed into a corner and come out trying to switch some shit up that makes no sense.
A fake slip on Bingle and calling me scum for an interaction that scum NEVER NEED TO HAVE.
All while in the same breath going "maybe I'm paranoid" "maybe I'm wrong". Well, you are wrong, and your point makes no fucking sense. But it feels like a scumpush when you go from "nah LLD's town" to "maybe this "weird" interaction LLD had was scum/scum?" when it's a fucking normal by the books interaction.
It feels to me like you're flailing and looking for suspects, for ANYTHING you can do to survive.
- implying it was a maliciously "fake" slip on Bingle when I clearly just didn't see the first time he said "oh shit button". if he hadn't said that, it would have certainly been a slip, because at the time I thought you were the only person who had used that term and you had only used it in a thread Bingle didn't have access to. and why would scum me make any of that up?
- also, how was I "pushed in a corner" when I called out the Bingle slip to begin with?
- further, do you really think scum!me is like, "how do I survive here? Oh, I know, I'll step on town!LLD's toes! surely that will work out well for me" like what??"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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can you elaborate on this? I'm not really super familiar with LLD's scum play but I have the impression that she is an extremely skilled player. it seems like your argument is ultimately "LLD is passive here and scum!LLD isn't passive" but I don't know if a single game where scum!LLD wasn't passive is enough for me to be convinced she can't be scum hereIn post 4351, Bingle wrote: She's pretty night-and-day from her scumplay here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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the main thing is I don't think Alisae/furtive read S/S. Alisae was hard defending furtive in the council thread before today and if e was planning on risking himself by failing to doc the cop, I feel like that's meant to set up furtive as a fall guy if Alisae flips moreso than go hard at bat for his buddy.In post 4353, UNOwen wrote:
What's convinced you?In post 4346, GuiltyLion wrote: I don't really believe furtive is scum at all, as frustrated as I am with him I think he's town.
the other thing is I don't believe furtive is giving any real inclination of knowing that I am town or that Alisae is scum, like his play is almost so outwardly anti-town in that world that I don't think he'd be as confident behaving the way he is if he was mafia, instead I am getting a sense that hetrulythinks I am suspicious and is letting that drive his reads and his behavior. I don't think he knows that I'm town.
I still want to reread D1/D2 with this in mind and look at how furtive/Datisi interacted but if furtive is scum it feels like he and Alisae are going all-in a minute too early and I don't really see the strategy or logic there
if I had mod confirmed info that LLD is town I'd be back to suspicious of furtive again for all the VCA stuff namely the way in which he seems unlimmable, but yesterday I kept thinking it seems weirder that LLD has this strong furtive scumread and is still just detached from the thread and not pushing it whereas furtive is here all the time constantly advocating for his views and sparring with me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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like I guess another way of framing my POV right now, going back to Bingle's question about scum team in scum!Ali world
- if furtive is a buddy, then he is fighting hard for thread control while Alisae kinda just sits back, and this seems backwards when Alisae would be the slot designated to possibly sacrifice today
- whereas if furtive is town, then whoever Alisae's mafia buddies are seem content to let me fight with him and it hasn't felt to me like anyone else has remotely felt inclined to get their hands dirty or get involved here - other than Bingle. which brings me to LLD and how I don't vibe with the way she apparently scumreads furtive but isn't pushing it or jumping into my arguments with him, and how I don't actually have a sense of what she thinks happened last night or what Alisae's alignment is, and that's a big red flag"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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EBWOP - whereas if furtive is town, then whoever Alisae's mafia buddies are seem content to let me fight withFURTIVE*
sentence above was unclear"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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that was assuming scum!AlisaeIn post 4361, furtiveglance wrote: I wouldn't call me anti-town before we have any flips
if Alisae is town and you are town I wouldn't call you anti-town but I'd also say the game is really fucked"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I actually figured out what happened here, I initially cmd+F'd "shit" and started going through the results but there were a bunch so I then added "shit button" and got only the latter postIn post 4363, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: I literally searched the words "oh shit" in Bingle's ISO. It took me 30 seconds to do. Why didn't you do that before trying to pin Bingle down for that? That's what's got me fucked up about you.
what I missed was he called it the "oh shit fund errbody button" the first time
I'm definitely scrambling and being overall more hot-takey/behind the ball this game than I would like, maybe I should just shut up and finally reread before posting anymore I guess
I'm not sure I fully understand why you think scum!you wouldn't have a stilted interaction with Alisae over the night shenanigans but I guess my main questions for you are these - 1) do you still think furtive is scum, and 2) why does it feel like you're in a more passive/react-to-things state rather than a push-what-you-want state?
if you disagree with the premise of 2 then that's also an answer but I think most of all I just want to find town that I can work with and it feels like the people who are more likely town are either not doing a whole lot or are scumreading me and pushing back on my reads and it's making the game feel really disjointed, and I think my pivot to being suspicious of you is because I don't like how the game looks if you're town here, like the ONLY thing that would feel fitting is furtive scum
p-edit: ok well you actually addressed both my questions lol but I'll leave this up for posterity
I guess the thing is like... if you wanna lim furtive, I ran against him so that we could possibly do that, everyone instead framed it like "we can't elect GL treasurer we might lim him!", and you haven't said a whole lot to argue for limming furtive. I kinda reject the whole notion of an Alisae/GL dichotomy today in the first place other than I strongly believe Alisae is scum and prefer limming em by a wide margin over anyone else here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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hmmmm ok
I think your posts on this page make sense
do you think Alisae/furtive reads like S-S? I mostly have a hang up around why would Alisae defend furtive so hard in the council D3 thread overnight if Alisae knows e's going to be soft-guiltied right afterwards
and why then would furtive work so hard to discredit me if he knows Alisae flips maf and I flip green
it just feels desperate and I feel like if that's what's going on then the third buddy must have very little standing like sheep or STD or Sleepy and scum is just trying to play in the short term and delay the POE by a day"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I don't want you to do things that will lead to IRL suffering for you it's just a game and your explanation makes sense"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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funny timing that as soon as a new player replaces in Alisae now feels the urgency to come in with all this fake solving
alisae - do you have any doubts at all about your wolfread on me? because if you are town this game is 100% lost and I don't see you thinking about that at all. no doubts about the fact that you townread me this entire game up until I scumread you today? no doubts about the fact that my volume is >>> most of the PL and historically every scum game I've ever played? no doubts about the fact that if furtive is town I don't even have to do anything today to begin with I can just come in and plop a vote on furtive and push that and not even put myself on anybody's radar?
like, your scumread on me seems 100% born out of survival and if you are town I would expect at least a fraction of concern about what happens if town!GL because my goal today is to ensure that you die next even if you successfully get a lim on me first"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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because I"ve posted like an INFINITE amount of other content today that you've just consistently ignoredIn post 4397, Alisae wrote: Why would I be doubting my wolfread on you when you're posting junk like this
you can but you're not behaving like one, at allIn post 4398, Alisae wrote: so I can't be town who thinks you're a wolf capitalizing on the moment
and if I'm flipped today you are going to have to speak to this"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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you aren't even wolf-hunting outside of me today until literally the second a new player comes in you need to buddy up to, then you start posting a team solve"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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seems like a bunch of other players disagree with you (Sleepy, UNOwen, sheep) so why didn't you engage with them on that when they posted as much yesterdayIn post 4402, Alisae wrote:
everything you posted is a wolfpost because you're a wolfIn post 4400, GuiltyLion wrote: because I"ve posted like an INFINITE amount of other content today that you've just consistently ignored
why does it always feel like your goal is to antagonize me rather than work with people you townread and actually case me"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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this isn't encouraging a "shitstorm" it's an honest questionIn post 4396, GuiltyLion wrote: alisae - do you have any doubts at all about your wolfread on me? because if you are town this game is 100% lost and I don't see you thinking about that at all. no doubts about the fact that you townread me this entire game up until I scumread you today? no doubts about the fact that my volume is >>> most of the PL and historically every scum game I've ever played? no doubts about the fact that if furtive is town I don't even have to do anything today to begin with I can just come in and plop a vote on furtive and push that and not even put myself on anybody's radar?
so your answer is no? you'd bet the game on me being mafia?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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it's kind of your duty to show your alignment when you were supposed to protect the cop and you didn't, instead the first thing you did was OMGUS me for DARING to suspect you after your night action didn't happen, and only just now nearly a week IRL into the day phase you have started posting something that resembles real #content, only after a new player entered the game who nobody knows how they're going to read/evaluate thingsIn post 4407, Alisae wrote: Like inaction is action here and it's not my duty to show my alignment to you, it's my duty to kill wolves.
p-edit: well, I'm not a wolf, so..."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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in any case I don't think anything I just posted is actually good or useful, I'm just frustrated
I am actually going to make good on what I've been saying for a few days and reread things"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I will say this though, truly genuinelyIn post 4410, Alisae wrote: my duty is to use my position as the person most likely to come under fire by wolves to find wolves and kill them.
if you are town and you genuinely think that the way you've done this today was correct or successful, you are wrong. and that is because you immediately got so defensive and so antagonistic at the very first person who called you out, to the point where I can no longer feel like I can comfortably or safely re-evaluate on you because your reaction has been so bad
I have said multiple times that if you are town, I would be FAR more suspicious of anyone giving you too much slack, or #hedgeposting around if they think you might be town or not. from an uniformed POV you look really bad here. like objectively. but in my experience, scum are tremendously awkward around soft/incorrect 'guilties' and every time I've tried to show you someone who seems to be giving you a lot of room for benefit of the doubt, you've just ignored me or posted thumbs up emojis. maybe I should have been a little less aggro in pushing you initially, if you're town I'll take that as a lesson from this game, but you cannot act like you haven't been wildly reactionary to a situation where your slot looks bad in a way that has created a situation where we are now enmeshed to the point where I cannot see you as town, and further my flip (if I go first) will condemn you. that's not doing your "duty", that's creating a losing gamestate."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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alright well, I tried"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I mean, yeah. I'm townIn post 4424, Alisae wrote:
"Ya Ali, don't be sus of me! Be sus of anyone who's doing what I'm not doing!"In post 4420, GuiltyLion wrote: I would be FAR more suspicious of anyone giving you too much slack"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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no, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying if you really, truly, earnestly believe you are doing your "duty" to find wolves, you've failed at it here and I'm trying to appeal to you in a fucking honest way that if you're town then this game is currently lost and I guess I was hoping I could somehow get you to maybe see or consider thatIn post 4428, Alisae wrote: Are you saying there is no wolf motivation in pushing me today?
the way you immediately just continued to snark at me was unpleasant and I'm not going to get baited by it further, I'll cop to the fact that my posts at the start of this exchange were reactive and unproductive but the last few I'm trying really hard to just be regulated and offer a final olive branch"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I don't even care about being treasurer, elect furtive, I don't think there's momentum to flip him today and I'm still not even sure whether he's scum
p-edit: Alisae, can you maybe tell me what in your posts today I'm supposed to townread? Like put yourselves in my shoes, assume for a second I am town - what in your reactions to my post or the things you've said today should have indicated to me that you are town?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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frankly most of it really truly is that I don't believe it's anywhere near as likely that scum have a strongman or RBer as it is Alisae is just a wolf. like that's just how my brain sees these situations, the simple explanation with the most immediate evidence is one I trust, for me it's a big hurdle to go "well what if scum also have a way to counter a doc". I also don't like how Alisae tried to source the opening post as if that definitively proved the existence of counterplay when all it says is the most generic text about "abilities" to "effect" the gameIn post 4436, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: what's your argument for Ali scum that doesn't involve the "she didn't use her doctor" thing because i mean, fuck all scum needed was a 1 shot strongman kill as a power and boom we're here.
secondary is the way Alisae then reacted to me was so immediately defensive and tunneled that it locked me into the scumread. like there was little to no meaningful engagement elsewhere, there was no doubt or concern about me possibly being town and engaging with me on the level, I generally feel like Alisae's seen enough of my towngames e should be seeing me and e had me as town up until today, but instead I get this snarky and hostile reaction. and while I've definitely played a role in creating that in terms of our direct engagement I keep just hoping there'd besomethingto townread, even if it's in the form of Alisae engaging with other players, even in the form of casing or talkingaboutme to other players.
I do it owe to myself and the game to reread, I'm a little anxious I'm going to go into it biased/tunneled when I reread Datisi but yeah I can try to post just a well thought out, well regulated, probably way too long Theory of the Game at some point in the next couple days cause I feel like the past few RL days I've just been spinning my wheels and not actually getting people on my side or accomplishing anything useful and it's cause I've been playing lazy/sloppy/emotionally"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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even winding back to the whole "performative" thing which Alisae brought up again just now and definitely escalated everything at daystart
if you're town and you post 3883 and 3884, "WHAT THE FUCK" in all caps, how can you be surprised if someone thinks you're playing it up and faking your emotions? and that's not to say Alisae definitively was or wasn't faking their emotions, like town can be performative, town can be manipulative, town can yell in all caps, I'm definitely a bit performative and manipulative as town, but it's the way e thendeniesit, like 3989, "tries to sell the picture that I'm just some crazy maniac screaming their heads off to other players.", I did not make Alisae enter the thread and post "WHAT THE FUCK" or "I'M ANGRY" (3896)! like e did that, not me!
maybe this is personality and not alignment indicative but if I got fake guilted or my slot looked compromised as a result of night actions, I wouldunderstandthat people are going to suspect me. even knowing I was framed, I think I personally would be a lot more aware that I'm under a microscope and some people are going to think I'm insincere. I'm not trying to tone police or say there's a correct reaction, I'm really not, my issue is more that I feel it's entirely reasonable to see a guilty looking person say "WHAT THE FUCK" and think it feels fake, but Alisae thinks my response is wolf-indicative. like would it be townier for me to just be like, "gosh Alisae, you seem so surprised! you must be innocent!" like is that the thought process there?
also, this whole thing reminded me of furtive's bullshit with "stop capsing" on D1. furtive, why haven't you had any issues with Alisae's caps posting today?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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this was my ballot
Sherriff - Sheepsaysmeep
Mayor - Bingle
Council Member - Unowen
Trash Collector - LLD
Board of Election - STD
I have a heavy work day today but I'll be around tonight (like after 7 pm PST) to play
Bingle/LLD, are there any concerns about sharing all the budgetary info in the main thread?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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yeah I've been meaning to do that post a just response, don't have a ton of time but I'll just vomit some quick thoughts nowIn post 4470, Bingle wrote:
Why? I'm assuming you read my bigpost about why I think the existence of such a role is very likely, so is there something about it that you disagree with?In post 4439, GuiltyLion wrote: frankly most of it really truly is that I don't believe it's anywhere near as likely that scum have a strongman or RBer as it is Alisae is just a wolf. like that's just how my brain sees these situations, the simple explanation with the most immediate evidence is one I trust, for me it's a big hurdle to go"well what if scum also have a way to counter a doc". I also don't like how Alisae tried to source the opening post as if that definitively proved the existence of counterplay when all it says is the most generic text about "abilities" to "effect" the game
but the tl;dr is that your post is an argument for "If Ali is town, then the odds scum interfered is high" and that's a definite given because we already assume Alisae is telling the truth in that world, like I don't disagree with that aspect of your argument at all.
However I don't think that in itself is an argument for the likelihood of there being a way to interfere last night in general - you touched on this by saying FTC+extra power is broken so we know there must be counterplay, but I think the fact that we don't know the cop's alignment and we don't know the treasurer's alignment and we don't know the doc's alignment (AND it's a one-shot doc for each role) is enough to counter a FTC setup already. maybe I'm misunderstanding or not aware of the EV there but to me that feels intuitive, we have 2 one-shot doc abilities to protect a cop ability that all have to go to town every night and receive funding from town, it's simply not analogous to FTC.
in my mind the more relevant question is "given the cop was not docced, what are the odds Alisae is scum that didn't use their ability the way e said e would" and to me that is substantially high likelihood. It's not "what are the odds scum have the ability to interfereifAlisae is town", it's "what are the odds Alisae is townandscum have the abilities to interfere"
and to your other post:
you're making a mistake of assuming scum necessarily specifically chose Alisae to be 'guilted' whereas we as a town elected Alisae and then LLD as an individualIn post 4473, Bingle wrote: I'm having a hard time reconciling the narrative that scum is willing to trade one-for-one with someone who isn't full confirmed and only might enter the day with a relevant result.fundedAlisae. assuming Aliscum, that forces the teams hand to decide whether to kill Andante and compromise Alisae's slot, or to allow Andante to live. And it seems kinda obviously valuable to prevent the town from seeing Andante's cop result (and Andante herself was clearly in town meta) and prevent us from getting a chain going, like throughout this game I've heard over and over again arguments for how valuable a cop result is, why are you now assuming scum wouldn't be willing to risk one of their own to take an opportunity to kill the cop when it's handed to them?"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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also Bingle maybe I'm missing something but aren't you yourself acknowledging exactly why thisIn post 4473, Bingle wrote: I'm having a hard time reconciling the narrative that scum is willing to trade one-for-one withsomeone who isn't full confirmed and only might enter the day with a relevant result.isn'ta super town sided FTC setup that requires scum power counterplay yourself here?
like either
1) Andante being a cop with a result is valuable to town, and scum would be willing to gamble one of their own to kill her,
or
2) it's notthatvaluable, and the setup is roughly balanced without scum powers like RB or strongman
but it seems like you're wanting to have it both ways here"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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will definitely re-evaluate and talk furtive with you later LLD I think if Alisae is town furtive scum equity is super high
Alisae have you ever considered that I'm just town lol"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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@Alisae - I still really really want to finally do the promised reread before committing to anything but
this solve actually feels pretty good to me imoIn post 4583, Lady Lambdadelta wrote: IT's probably just Bingle/Sheep/Furtive.
Bingle is the tough one because a lot of his opinions feel really grounded and town-motivated but if we are truly actually T-T the kinda fluffy non-committing from him feels scummy to me
like he says he wants to partner hunt outside of us today but it feels like all he's doing is arguing with me and virtually every other player doesn't receive any scrutiny from him at all"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I liked some of his posts too I'm not sold on it
ultimately the one liner would be I don't see what he's really doing to help town win
but yeah I'm not effort posting right now so that will come later"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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most of that was because I don't see you as partnered with AlisaeIn post 4611, furtiveglance wrote: Pretty sure you said you townread me..."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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but if Alisae is TOWN then all the shading me and cageyness of furtive's own Ali read from the start of the day has a very different look"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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ugh every time Bingle comes back and posts posts like 4646 I'm like no he can't be scum
I totally forgot about when furtive initially didn't understand the slip argument
anyway I got home and ate dinner, gonna do a tiny bit of house cleaning and smoke a j and then I plan to spend the next 2-3 hours rereading and trying to do a full reset. I am probably not gonna live tweet it but I'll be around to talk and I'll highlight whatever I find that stands out strongly"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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ok I know I said I wasn't going to live tweet it I will try to resist the urge but this post actually makes me think town!Datisi, I don't know if scum!Datisi thinks to shade me so hard with the "look smart and not really succeeding" like that'd be too cold if he knew for a fact I am town lolIn post 130, Datisi wrote: 114 gives me the vibe of trying to look smart in the early game but just not really succeeding. i also found it really weird to be asking so much about why someone would run for cop (not necessarily scummy in itself because the explanation for that is plausible), and i think there's obvious value in asking why someone is stuck on something seemingly unimportant or unproductive. so i do empathize with what she's asking."I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I am remembering how much I disliked Bingle's early game
the AD townread in 225 feels really contrived especially now that I read this knowing ActionDan was in fact town
it just so strongly gives me the vibe of when scum gets caught making a pockety townread and so they try really hard to justify it with stuff that sounds plausible and complicated to demonstrate a solvey mind
I think my posts come off that way sometimes in how I write them so I'm sympathetic it to it but the underlying arguments here are a real stretch. the first paragraph assumes scum!AD would feel compelled to nightkill LD on N1 (wot) and also ignores that LLD declared treasurer on page 1 almost immediately so ActionDan couldn't make much noise about it anyways"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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sorry I realize my sentence is unclear
> the first paragraph assumes scum!AD would feel compelled to nightkill LD on N1 (wot)
here I'm not saying that LLD isn't worthy of an N1 kill or that it would be a bad choice for scum to make, rather I'm questioning the fact that Bingle basically treats it as a given that scum!AD woulddefinitelywant to kill LLD on N1. there's no way to know what AD's priorities when deciding the NK on N1 will be, maybe he'll be in really good standing with LLD and someone else will be a threat, maybe he'd just always kill cop or JOAT on N1 but definitely not trying to force somebody to be there. it's just such a weirdly specific reason to say AD is probably not scum with LLD"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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I wonder if Bingle's push on Nono which was the first thing I liked from him was actually a bus, and he was able to write truth into it and that was why I liked it
I wonder if the team is like furtive+Bingle+STD cause I still kinda don't think sheep is all that scummy other than his prolonged absences
running for sheriff against Alisae felt like a really protown move to do regardless of Alisae's alignment - if he's scum and wins sheriff he has to explain why he didn't die and come up with a result that narrows the limpool or goes for a 1-1
maybe a good move if he wants to fake a guilty at ELO but I don't know if scum!sheep has enough bravery or town standing to really do that?
gonna keep thinking on this"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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this is really weird how easily furtive just accepts this response from Bl00db0t lolIn post 458, furtiveglance wrote:
Understandable. Have a nice dayIn post 457, BloodB0t wrote:
Yeah I thought so. I think it's because I was super tryharding and wordy but I've decided to not play like that anymore because it was burning me out. Consider that my wordcount became much lower halfway through that game. Right now I'm trying to survive longer. I guess that's selfish, but meh... I haven't survived super long yet so it's an attractive challenge. Also I felt like I was confusing people when I was being super detailed with my reasoning.In post 450, furtiveglance wrote:me?
We've played 1 game together before and you were quite an easy townread for me. I haven't seen that yet from you this game
also I forgot Bingle's initial take on Nono was "it's either awkward or scum but I can't tell" (SleepyKrew also I feel looks a lot townier to me now in how he calls this out) and that type of waffling but scumreading feels very in line with how scum may treat a buddy"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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also in hindsight the way Pooky/LLD so naturally bond and vibe with each other in the early game further resolves paranoia about LLD and I think it provides good context to why Pooky basically just let her shoot wherever
damn I really should actually clear my mind and reread games more often"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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on the other hand, is this really scum calling out all three buddies for not declaring in one postIn post 506, meowth wrote: the phase is about to end and we don't have declarations from:
- furtiveglance
- bingle
- nono
i think it would be good if one of you ran against cakez
very audacious move if so but I recently lost to scum!Ausuka pulling the same thing in a game where she simultaneously called out both buddies as mandatory flips in a super casual non-agenda-y way"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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oh my gosh I have not ever done this before, excellent suggestion thank you"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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lol fun fact I forgot I had 200ppp on and had a thought I wanted to post and started turbo scrolling for a solid 10 seconds before I realized my mistake
I realized I never shared treasury info - we had a decent windfall from taxes last night, we brought in $125. So even with paying back a $60 loan we could have $65 to play with and maybe take out another small loan. my thinking is we just fund the cop tonight and no one else, if sheep is town he's useful to flip and get out of the POE without wasting a lim if scum kills him, and if he lives he can investigate Bingle or whoever we're least sure of in the limpool"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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ok my stamina to post Catchup Takes is fading but rest assured I am continuing to read and think about the game
I am progressively liking a furtive+Bingle+STD solve more and more though I have yet to find a single thing that doesn't feel like it fits
I am least sure about STD it's possible it could be sheep still but I'm remembering how awkward Nono was early game and furtive/Bingle feel like they're maneuvering around it a lot more than bloodb0t, and I also think furtive locking blood town feels more likely WK or pocket than defending a buddy"I think I no longer believe in monsters as faces in the floor or feral infants or vampires or whatever. I think at seventeen now I believe the only real monsters might be the type of liar where there's simply no way to tell. The ones who give nothing away"-
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GuiltyLion he/himSurvivorhe/him
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