Mini 2286: Legends of the Hidden Temple IV (Explorers Win!)

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Hu Tao
You’re new. What brings you here?

[Gamma Emerald]

What brings you here?

I come to bring goodwill to all players here, as well as to have some good clean fun.

[Gamma Emerald]

I watched a good number of shows both animated and live-action on Nickelodeon when I was younger
The main one that stuck with me was Avatar: The Last Airbender tho

[Gamma Emerald]

Unofficial Vote Count 1.1

Mastina: Cephrir, Yume, Nancy Drew 39
Ythan: Aisa
Yume: MegAzumarill
Hu Tao: Gamma Emerald

[Gamma Emerald]

4 Mafia this game is going to be tough, I can see why certain pairs which trust each other might not want to challenge as well which makes it difficult. Might have to use some group pressure to coerce someone into a challenge when the time is right. Can you challenge unilaterally or do both players in a pair have to do it?

only one person does it

[Gamma Emerald]

What does Yume have to do with Bell and Taly?

Bell and Taly were in a hood and Bell hard sr them but I didn’t listen and I think Yume seems really sincere so I’m trusting their gut on that for now.

I appreciate it, but do not use another player's meta as a reference. I tried doing that once, using two different players to justify my stance. It backfired.

I think her point is she's trying to listen to input people provide that comes from hood contents

[Gamma Emerald]

ceph did you role scum lmao

I think he's looking like town rn, why do you say this?

[Gamma Emerald]

i don't like 80 it sounds stiff

I don't get that feeling from that post

[Gamma Emerald]

i think furative and cephy are both mafia at this point

I can see furtive rn

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d rather not have a challenge until Flea and the worst post
But I’m okay with the idea of a challenge on the Parrots
Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d rather not have a challenge until Flea and the worst post
But I’m okay with the idea of a challenge on the Parrots
Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

is ythan doing any meaningful solving in your hood? it's been a while but i think my memory of her involves a general refusal to do what i would typically think of as playing mafia

We’ve only really talked theory around challenges but that’s part of the TR, she mentioned most of her thoughts being in the thread already
I have asked her about a couple things though

[Gamma Emerald]

Ftr last run I wasn’t pressed to talk about the game itself in my team thread and it’s not much different here

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d rather not have a challenge until Flea and the worst post
But I’m okay with the idea of a challenge on the Parrots
Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

Ohhh! Anything you dislike about my posting, or is it just furtive so far?

i'd prefer to get some significant reads before challenges start flying around, but i'm probably kidding myself thinking that's a possibility

Same! I’m quoting this to reinforce the expectation that Town shouldn’t instachallenge the second a post pings you the wrong way
tbf hasn’t happened so far

It’s furtive mostly

[Gamma Emerald]

I think it's weak sauce. it's skimmed milk - dyed water.
Ironically comes labelled with red.

Considering our teammates are potentially scum, we need to get the feel on them asap as far as I'm bothered, I promise you Nancy and me will be constantly checking each other.

Treating this as some weird open-hydra thing sets bells off for me.

Is your PT active?

Who is doing this?

[Gamma Emerald]

furtive is giving me that vibe.

Each slot is still its own slot, the teams is an additional mechanic

I see.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think it's weak sauce. it's skimmed milk - dyed water.
Ironically comes labelled with red.

Considering our teammates are potentially scum, we need to get the feel on them asap as far as I'm bothered, I promise you Nancy and me will be constantly checking each other.

Treating this as some weird open-hydra thing sets bells off for me. Is your PT active?

My priority currently is working out Nancys alignment.
If I think she's red, I'll be open about it and encourage challenges on us for it.
If I think she's green, its hydra time.

I agree there's a mechanical reason to prioritise sorting your partner, since challenging a team also impacts your partner. I think having a good read on your partner is one resource and there are paths to winning that don't involve that.

Is your accusation that furtive is too chill about my alignment or something else?

The PT has 8 posts between me and furtive. I'd call it moderately active, we haven't solved string theory yet, but hey, maybe by the end of the game.

@ string theory. If you don’t find extraterrestrial life on Pluto and renaming it’s rightful planet status, we’re yeeting both of your asses.

Have you seen Rick and Morty? That remark looks conspicuously like the B-plot to one of the episodes iirc

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma is channeling her inner RH9!!

What makes you think he wants to avoid scrutiny?

Still looking for a response to this if poss, Flea

I don't know what you mean by this

[Gamma Emerald]

like I'm guessing it's a good thing but I've not seen RH9 play a lot so my context on that is low

[Gamma Emerald]

More than most people? it's a pretty common phrase.

Also I have some form of read on everyone except tw rn

[Gamma Emerald]

who was he in that one? I was in Pokemon Battles and don't remember him in it

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you meant pokemon large theme? I remember he was wooper in that one

[Gamma Emerald]

he was in the marashu + auro hydra one

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes I agree with you, so does mastina

Are you bussing?

This seems odd, what drove this?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes I agree with you, so does mastina

Are you bussing?

This seems odd, what drove this?

My myriad scumreads, of which you are one

riiiight

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes I agree with you, so does mastina

Are you bussing?

This seems odd, what drove this?

My myriad scumreads, of which you are one

riiiight

I think I am right, that's the thing

It just seems like your trajectory is way off here
You bounce from saying “I think you’re right” to “I think you’re bussing”, which gives the impression you are worried about consistency. And when pressed on the matter you go out of your way to re-affirm another states scumread. You feel inauthentic.

i feel like other people are having more valuable interactions than i can really have rn but i'll bbl

Why is this?

[Gamma Emerald]

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

Sounds like you are being pocketed /s

StD could you elaborate on your furtive scumread?

Based on? Where is Ythan pocketing Gamma?

Gamma: I see no evidence I’m being pocketed by Ythan.

Mega: sounds like you’re being pocketed by her. Dafuq?

“/s” means it was sarcasm

[Gamma Emerald]

And when pressed on the matter you go out of your way to re-affirm another states scumread. You feel inauthentic.

while i am currently agreeing with this it seems like furtive still has an outstanding question to you and id like to see it answered if i didn't miss that

I just ISOed furtive and I don’t see it

[Gamma Emerald]

well I’ll wait for him to explicitly ask me before engaging that.

[Gamma Emerald]

@Ythan, what is your Gamma read?

It would be really cool if everyone could state a read on their hood partner with reasons.

She asked me to ask the question in my last post for her because she felt that Furtive was associating her with Cephrir and I find that suspicious. Sorry Em. <3

why you booing me I'm right
like, I was correct in my intuition that furtive was sussing me in connection to cephrir. How is it suspect that I correctly figured out how someone was reading me and opted to have someone else inquire into that topic?

Speaking of which,

But maybe you (Cephrir) made me think that way.

What did you mean by this?

When Cephrir said that the Yume/Nancy exchange about the emoji was towny, that could have influenced my similar thinking

this is a total nothingburger response. I'll home in on my critique here: why and how does your scumread impacting your reads matter?

[Gamma Emerald]

I figured I wouldn’t get a straight answer if I had asked, and his response to the question I DID ask validated that feeling.

[Gamma Emerald]

I could try pointing to a post but it was really just a vibe I got.

Btw I noticed that furtive was not sussing Cephrir until after I called furtive scummy over him. Like, he explicitly said he didn’t suspect Ceph.

[Gamma Emerald]

Would love to know your thinking on the challenge you suggested.

I don’t understand what this is meant to accomplish. Like, he clearly has stated all the people there are suspects for him?

[Gamma Emerald]

I felt like your solving at that time felt inorganic, mostly the bit about memes being scummy for some reason

[Gamma Emerald]

Bit more background to that is my experience on mafia.gg where sometimes mafia decide to just meme instead of saying anything game related

Why are some memes more scummy than others?

[Gamma Emerald]

Avoiding embarrassment at all costs is the #1 reason I play mafia.

Would especially like to hear something more from Mega and duckling.

This is a mood

[Gamma Emerald]

The second line is, specifically
I feel like for me I play mafia for social reasons since I’m starved of irl social fulfillment rn

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you’re an easier sort when you replace into games and was a bit bothered to see you opting to not provide content
wrt flea/furtive/Aisa I am becoming less suspicious of furtive more recently, I may think about Aisa a bit more though as I see her content in-thread as a bit odd. Flea I’m pretty solid about my TR on rn

[Gamma Emerald]

And with your team. It's possible for both members of the team to be scumbuddies and generally an early tactic is often to not bring any light onto your buddies. The absence of you from his ISO screams louder than anything else there, and it caught my attention.

i was going to say something like "surely there are other pairs who aren't focused on each other" but then i realized there actually aren't

aisa's defense comes off townie but it's curious that it was posted from a motivation standpoint. why not let furtive fight his own battles

Would love to hear what you think the motivation might be

I'll be back later with chunkier thoughts

Still curious. I contemplated letting this go but then realised I'd look like a fool if I asked a bunch of questions without others answering them and since my primary motivator in life is avoiding embarrassment at all costs, well

Most of Asia’s ISO is inoffensive on inspection but this feels weird. I don’t really try to make a big deal about whether or not I’m following up on questions despite it being a common misconception that lack of follow-up from me is scummy. This feels mildly self-conscious as a result.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

[Gamma Emerald]

Bit more background to that is my experience on mafia.gg where sometimes mafia decide to just meme instead of saying anything game related

Why are some memes more scummy than others?

Personal response really

elaborate?

[Gamma Emerald]

that's very esoteric but makes some sense
I don't think I disagree with that atm

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

I want to keep it under wraps so I'm going to use code but here's who I'm thinking

Ancy-nay
Orst-way
Maybe astina-may
Less sure of ephrir-cay and uritive-fay

why the first one
I'm a bit wary of her approach to me rn (specifically, seems she's trying to skirt around a definite read) but don't feel like she's pinged me notably

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

I want to keep it under wraps so I'm going to use code but here's who I'm thinking

Ancy-nay
Orst-way
Maybe astina-may
Less sure of ephrir-cay and uritive-fay

why the first one
I'm a bit wary of her approach to me rn (specifically, seems she's trying to skirt around a definite read) but don't feel like she's pinged me notably

You cracked the code!

Actually it was her read on you that pinged me. It feels forced. I won't pretend I'm the best Nancy reader but her tone feels off. Sometimes she feels super town when town and sometimes she doesn't feel super town and here she doesn't

okay

[Gamma Emerald]

the main reason I didn't answer until I did was I wanted the actual question clarified ftr

[Gamma Emerald]

I was hoping for a more detailed answer than yes

I agree with mastina's reads so far. Nancy will probably either become obvtown or just fall off so that's not a priority vote for me regardless, but townlean so far.

hmm

[Gamma Emerald]

So we have

Meg and worst - The Non-posters.
furtive and gamma - The Minimal Posters
me and StD - The Instigators
Aisa and Cephy - The Indirect Posters
Yume and Ythan - The Forgotten
Mastina and Nancy - Warming up. (Nancy's definitely got the cats butt wiggle vibe at the moment - you know its coming, just not when)

this makes very little sense to me
me and furtive are towards the top of the post count range, how are we "minimal posters"?

[Gamma Emerald]

LOCKTOWN:
{Save the Dragons, Yume, Nancy Drew 39}

TOWN:
{Ythan, Gamme Emerald}

LEAN TOWN:
{Aisa}

{furtiveglance}

NULL:
{Flea the Magician, Hu Tao, Cephrir}

SCUM:
{MegAzumarill}

why do you say you agree w mastina's reads while she has me and Ythan in Town?
ftr I do kinda have concern about mastina myself

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm at a point where I would be interested to see an iguanas vs snakes challenge.

I think all four have scum equity

and I'd like to see them under pressure & commit the whole game to sorting them all

explain this pls? specifically Ythan because that's the one I think makes the least sense rn

[Gamma Emerald]

Gnight, love to know why you're thinking that in the morning and if you still stand by it.

Yeh I do, I'd like to vote off Meg or GE primarily

Oops found it.
ngl I expected a lil more stubstance.

Why these two?

I think Meg is everyone's biggest scumread for a reason, they haven't given as much content as everyone else except for maybe Yume.

GE feels a bit strategic in terms of the reads they've given out, like (initially) scumreading me and subtly defending Meg by explaining that one of their posts was sarcastic

vrej
why do people think random ass posts of mine are "defending" people
this is not the first time it's happened but it's still stupid af
I was clarifying Meg's posts for Nancy

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

I want to keep it under wraps so I'm going to use code but here's who I'm thinking

Ancy-nay
Orst-way
Maybe astina-may
Less sure of ephrir-cay and uritive-fay

why the first one
I'm a bit wary of her approach to me rn (specifically, seems she's trying to skirt around a definite read) but don't feel like she's pinged me notably

???

If this is about me, it’s because I don’t have one yet. Would you like me to pretend otherwise?

Not sure if I like this. How is not yet having a confident read on you skirting around jack?

you said you liked my posting earlier but haven't built on that at all

[Gamma Emerald]

My reads haven’t changed much since the last time I gave reads but want a response from Gamma to my question and slight scumlean on STD. InHDP where he also read me wrong, he was constantly vacillating on that. He sounds way too confident in general and not in the right way. He’s sr slots I tr and is confidently without explanation tr what rn for me is a nullread and that response to furtive was hella scummy.

I don’t have a confident read on Gamma yet, one way or another and I don’t understand why she thinks I should have one yet.

My confident reads are the same as they were: Still like Yume, furtive, Mastina, Flea, Ythan and if anyone has any issue with that, then change my goddamned mind.

I didn't say you should have a read on me, I said you seem averse to having a defined read on me

[Gamma Emerald]

Gnight, love to know why you're thinking that in the morning and if you still stand by it.

Yeh I do, I'd like to vote off Meg or GE primarily

Oops found it.
ngl I expected a lil more stubstance.

Why these two?

I think Meg is everyone's biggest scumread for a reason, they haven't given as much content as everyone else except for maybe Yume.

GE feels a bit strategic in terms of the reads they've given out, like (initially) scumreading me and subtly defending Meg by explaining that one of their posts was sarcastic

vrej
why do people think random ass posts of mine are "defending" people
this is not the first time it's happened but it's still stupid af
I was clarifying Meg's posts for Nancy

So it was Mega who you thought was skirting around having a read on you then?

I'd say she's skirting around multiple slots but I meant you

[Gamma Emerald]

So we have

Meg and worst - The Non-posters.
furtive and gamma - The Minimal Posters
me and StD - The Instigators
Aisa and Cephy - The Indirect Posters
Yume and Ythan - The Forgotten
Mastina and Nancy - Warming up. (Nancy's definitely got the cats butt wiggle vibe at the moment - you know its coming, just not when)

this makes very little sense to me
me and furtive are towards the top of the post count range, how are we "minimal posters"?

Because neither of you have posted anything beyond bare minimum in what you've posted.

then I don't think you're actually payin attention to our posts.

[Gamma Emerald]

why do

you

suspect rn, Flea?

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

I want to keep it under wraps so I'm going to use code but here's who I'm thinking

Ancy-nay
Orst-way
Maybe astina-may
Less sure of ephrir-cay and uritive-fay

why the first one
I'm a bit wary of her approach to me rn (specifically, seems she's trying to skirt around a definite read) but don't feel like she's pinged me notably

???

If this is about me, it’s because I don’t have one yet. Would you like me to pretend otherwise?

Not sure if I like this. How is not yet having a confident read on you skirting around jack?

you said you liked my posting earlier but haven't built on that at all

I’m still null on you. If I were to state otherwise I’d be lying. I don’t know why you even have an issue with that? I have good reasons for my reads. I’m still on the fence on you and idk maybe it has something to do with my tr furtive?

Do you have any plans to work on forming a read on me? That's my issue rn is that I haven't seen that from you yet

[Gamma Emerald]

So we have

Meg and worst - The Non-posters.
furtive and gamma - The Minimal Posters
me and StD - The Instigators
Aisa and Cephy - The Indirect Posters
Yume and Ythan - The Forgotten
Mastina and Nancy - Warming up. (Nancy's definitely got the cats butt wiggle vibe at the moment - you know its coming, just not when)

this makes very little sense to me
me and furtive are towards the top of the post count range, how are we "minimal posters"?

Because neither of you have posted anything beyond bare minimum in what you've posted.

then I don't think you're actually payin attention to our posts.

Thats the line you're taking? really?
I've just been sat on top of furtive and turning the heat up and you're saying I'm not paying attention?

C'mon gamma you're better than this.

there are probably shortcomings in my content thus far but I wouldn't call "bare minimum" an accurate one

[Gamma Emerald]

why do

you

suspect rn, Flea?

Right now I'm wanting Silver Snakes and Green Monkeys to face off. I feel it could be an interesting situation.

You definitely need some poking at some point, MegA needs to show face and follow through on what they were doing - as does Quaxley. Mastina needs to show up and do what she does.

If it was a free elimination I'd be sat on Aisa right now.

An annoyingly large pool of sus, admittedly, but we have time.

why the Monkeys?

[Gamma Emerald]

Gold Dragons

, pardon.

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes I agree with you, so does mastina

Are you bussing?

This seems odd, what drove this?

My myriad scumreads, of which you are one

riiiight

I think I am right, that's the thing

It just seems like your trajectory is way off here
You bounce from saying “I think you’re right” to “I think you’re bussing”, which gives the impression you are worried about consistency. And when pressed on the matter you go out of your way to re-affirm another states scumread. You feel inauthentic.

i feel like other people are having more valuable interactions than i can really have rn but i'll bbl

Why is this?

@Ythan, what is your Gamma read?

It would be really cool if everyone could state a read on their hood partner with reasons.

She asked me to ask the question in my last post for her because she felt that Furtive was associating her with Cephrir and I find that suspicious. Sorry Em. <3

why you booing me I'm right
like, I was correct in my intuition that furtive was sussing me in connection to cephrir. How is it suspect that I correctly figured out how someone was reading me and opted to have someone else inquire into that topic?

Speaking of which,

But maybe you (Cephrir) made me think that way.

What did you mean by this?

When Cephrir said that the Yume/Nancy exchange about the emoji was towny, that could have influenced my similar thinking

this is a total nothingburger response. I'll home in on my critique here: why and how does your scumread impacting your reads matter?

I think these posts go somewhat above and beyond
I think I see what you mean by "bare minimum" tho, I wouldn't call it that, I'd call it "short and sweet"

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Meg is town

who do you think is scum?

I want to keep it under wraps so I'm going to use code but here's who I'm thinking

Ancy-nay
Orst-way
Maybe astina-may
Less sure of ephrir-cay and uritive-fay

why the first one
I'm a bit wary of her approach to me rn (specifically, seems she's trying to skirt around a definite read) but don't feel like she's pinged me notably

???

If this is about me, it’s because I don’t have one yet. Would you like me to pretend otherwise?

Not sure if I like this. How is not yet having a confident read on you skirting around jack?

you said you liked my posting earlier but haven't built on that at all

I’m still null on you. If I were to state otherwise I’d be lying. I don’t know why you even have an issue with that? I have good reasons for my reads. I’m still on the fence on you and idk maybe it has something to do with my tr furtive?

Do you have any plans to work on forming a read on me? That's my issue rn is that I haven't seen that from you yet

What makes you think I’m not honestly trying? I don’t know why you’re trying to force this because it’s not helping me at all. Why don’t you do something to help me to have a more confident read on you rather than togive one out of thin air?

You haven’t done enough one way or the other for me to have a read either way. How you’re suspicious of that when in imho, you haven’t done enough to alignment tell - one way or the other - is seriously bonkers.

well, what do you look for when trying to read me?

[Gamma Emerald]

I posted a list in my team thread earlier so I'm building from that

townreads

cephrir: this read has gotten stronger since I first said I TR him, I like his drive that he's showing so far.
yume: I think her mastina sus was genuine and she just feels natural rn
fenrir: clearly motivated to solve I think
ythan: hood interactions are clean and she's been solid in thread too

townleans

nancy: I was concerned about the lack of read on me but I think she's towny in how she responded to that.
furtive: I've actually liked his engagement with me. He's also effectively addressed some of my concerns about him.

nulls

the worst: will figure him out eventually, no clue rn. Anyone who bothers me about accelerating this will end up on my naughty list.
aisa: I felt she was towny early but I honestly don't have a strong impression of her posting

scumleans

mastina: this is a weird crackpot read, but I don't think her read me makes sense on a couple levels. Calling me town so early seems premature, and I also think her early reads on me trend towards the opposite of my actual alignment when she's town (yes I could be scum and mastina could be town and this would be accurate but w/e).
flea: I get a bit of a bad vibe from the constant clashing with aisa + furtive while not actually meaning to put pressure there

scumreads

meg: don't care for her handling of yume/nancy and it feels a bit like she's trying to lurk out

If I wanted to tinfoil an associative, I could see flea as scum with aisa or furtive based on the clashing without pushing, it registers as potential theater.

[Gamma Emerald]

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

This is more or less what I think of you right now, in spite of the potential pocketing from you.

why did you bring this up in this manner?

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll probably address the rest later but if you think I'm not trying to make waves then you're a damned fool. What the hell do you call my interaction with nancy just now?

[Gamma Emerald]

Don't play dumb!

you

know that

I

know that nancy is not someone to be trifled with when scum against her. I could have tried to de-escalate the situation but I opted not to, because I wanted to communicate myself candidly.

[Gamma Emerald]

Little further down we get "I was sus of you earlier" when you'd already stated a TR

what is this referring to?

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes, why?

[Gamma Emerald]

Idrk
Fae is pushing me on a lot of surface-level points imo
And since I’m here, the walk-back of the flea TR was because I wasn’t paying much mind to the trend of softball treatment of Aisa+furtive until the weird grouping post rolled out

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you’re an easier sort when you replace into games and was a bit bothered to see you opting to not provide content
wrt flea/furtive/Aisa I am becoming less suspicious of furtive more recently, I may think about Aisa a bit more though as I see her content in-thread as a bit odd. Flea I’m pretty solid about my TR on rn

This is the first post where I state I potentially TR furtive. That post comes after the general area in my ISO Flea seems to be at with the part I inquired about.

Little further down we get "I was sus of you earlier" when you'd already stated a TR

This is malarkey.

[Gamma Emerald]

As for what I think of furtive, I feel like I can understand his thought processes quite well and that makes me trust him.

[Gamma Emerald]

Pairs aren’t lovers

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t see how mastina doesn’t get the memo from scum pt by this point, most players have realized the way things work

[Gamma Emerald]

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

This is more or less what I think of you right now, in spite of the potential pocketing from you.

why did you bring this up in this manner?

I was saying that you could

technically

be doing the same thing to Ythan that you were saying Ythan wasn't doing, but that I didn't think you actually did--that you were just town.

Okay, noted

[Gamma Emerald]

Actually making me tile some tabs, so much for an easy game to come back to.

I felt like your solving at that time felt inorganic, mostly the bit about memes being scummy for some reason

Would be the exact post. Hands up on this one, I think I crossed wires somewhere. My bad.
I thought I saw a furtive town read early on, might've been Aisa? Lets looky see...

Nah I got a wire crossed, i think I know where too. honestly doesn't change much from my side of things at the moment.

I

greatly

look forward to your report on this matter.

[Gamma Emerald]

oh

gamma just feels super genuine

Interesting, I'll give you that one, there's nothing "hiding" so to speak... tbh there's nothing there

to

hide.

Actually making me tile some tabs, so much for an easy game to come back to.

I felt like your solving at that time felt inorganic, mostly the bit about memes being scummy for some reason

Would be the exact post. Hands up on this one, I think I crossed wires somewhere. My bad.
I thought I saw a furtive town read early on, might've been Aisa? Lets looky see...

Nah I got a wire crossed, i think I know where too. honestly doesn't change much from my side of things at the moment.

I

greatly

look forward to your report on this matter.

Youve had it, you want more be precise. I crossed a wire and had a post out of context. Doesn't change my stance on you at the moment as honestly its minor in thinking currently.

What post caused the crossed wire?

[Gamma Emerald]

ceph did you role scum lmao

I think he's looking like town rn, why do you say this?

I got a lil fixated. having BRead off is driving me mad ngl.

Okay what
How is Aisa involved in this?

[Gamma Emerald]

But like, I’d never brought up the Aisa TR in this thread until my read list
The closest I got was saying furtive was the main reason I was in favor of a challenge involving the parrots.

[Gamma Emerald]

furtive is parrots, me and yhtan are iguanas

[Gamma Emerald]

Not especially, the part that puzzles me is that you'd be down to challenge nullreads right now

STD is playing this phase in a way that makes me think whatever alignment he is is more likely than random to win this game

How is that relevant

[Gamma Emerald]

>:/
why do you care about that?

[Gamma Emerald]

But as Pharaoh's sorcerers were able to replicate this trick too, at least in part, Pharaoh remained unmoved.

No that's yu gi oh not legends of the hidden temple

Different made up ancient civilization

Pretty sure that actually comes from scripture? At the very least it reminds of a scene from Prince of Egypt.

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay yeah that whole thing tracks ig

[Gamma Emerald]

Why are you okay with your team being challenged, Meg?
Also did you read the rest of the game or are you interacting in real time for now?

[Gamma Emerald]

alignments are randomized but S/S teams are possible

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, mastina will think this is a bad play, but I'll take it.

Challenge: Silver Snakes

So says me and my spirits.

Why did you think mastina wouldn’t like it? She was interested in challenging them too.

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: MegAzumarill
Since there’s already 3 tw votes I’ll do this instead

[Gamma Emerald]

Why is Yume your strongest TR rn Nancy?
I don’t think it doesn’t make sense but I’m curious what elevates it above others atm

[Gamma Emerald]

That doesn’t make sense tho
Mastina was interested in challenging the snakes earlier

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't know what it is about me that makes people forget what words mean in order to find ways to doubt me

Should I go find pressure in the dictionary

It makes sense as a concept, I don't agree with it though. I vote to kill

I work like Cephrir fwiw
I like voting beyond just trying to eliminate someone, I kinda view that as essential to the atmosphere of play here.

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't know what it is about me that makes people forget what words mean in order to find ways to doubt me

Should I go find pressure in the dictionary

It makes sense as a concept, I don't agree with it though. I vote to kill

I work like Cephrir fwiw
I like voting beyond just trying to eliminate someone, I kinda view that as essential to the atmosphere of play here.

Ok but your 'pressure' could literally make someone exit the game.

that requires a substantial amount of other people to be involved

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, mastina will think this is a bad play, but I'll take it.

Challenge: Silver Snakes

So says me and my spirits.

Why did you think mastina wouldn’t like it? She was interested in challenging them too.

@yume

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, mastina will think this is a bad play, but I'll take it.

Challenge: Silver Snakes

So says me and my spirits.

Why did you think mastina wouldn’t like it? She was interested in challenging them too.

@yume

She'd consider it too early.

Got it.

[Gamma Emerald]

Looking at the rules it seems there is no deadline

[Gamma Emerald]

…
What do you make of 573, furtive?

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay

[Gamma Emerald]

@tw

do you have any reads?

@meg

why were you okay with your team being challenged?

[Gamma Emerald]

You know what, after perusing tow’s ISO I also see a reality where the sanakes are S/S

[Gamma Emerald]

@tw

do you have any reads?

@meg

why were you okay with your team being challenged?

Pagetopping this

[Gamma Emerald]

This isn’t even what I’d call a “good” tw scumgame
Read Eurybia’s Curse if you wanna see that

[Gamma Emerald]

I wanna eliminate Meg first tho because I think tw has provided at least a smidge more of value.

[Gamma Emerald]

I haven’t done a direct comparison but it’s possible

[Gamma Emerald]

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=87368
I think I remember lurking being one of the reasons that Meg was shaded in this game

[Gamma Emerald]

This game nightless right. What if we just voted off everyone apart from me and Aisa

I don’t feel comfortable enough with y’all to approve of this.
Why not Yume/Mastina or flea/Nancy?

[Gamma Emerald]

This game nightless right. What if we just voted off everyone apart from me and Aisa

You misspelled "flea and save the dragons"

That’s very spicy
Why those 2 for you?

[Gamma Emerald]

Alright

[Gamma Emerald]

Yes, momentum good, surprise E-1 from nowhere not so good.

I thought it was E-2...5 votes - Gamma, me, you, Nancy, Yume

Mastina too makes it e-1

[Gamma Emerald]

We've still had jack all from Yume and then E-1 with nothing.

Nancy I'm now mega sus of despite being my best town read, and your reasoning at best is "lolmentum" and "switching it up"

Why is Nancy sus when it’s your logic that convinced her to switch?

[Gamma Emerald]

I’d like my teammate to have a chance to give input
She hasn’t posted much of substance in the PT recently (this is not an indictment but an indicator)

[Gamma Emerald]

You know what, it’s Cobra Kai time.

STRIKE HARD
STRIKE FAST
NO MERCY

I challenge the Purple Parrots

[Gamma Emerald]

I think you’re delusional.
the worst will fall eventually if he’s scum. Meanwhile, I think Aisa and Ythan need time in the limelight.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think Aida’s last burst of activity is a scumtell.
I’ll explain once at my computer.

[Gamma Emerald]

here why I wanted to wait to explain the Aisa read: I had a meme in mind.

Basically, when a player pops in like Aisa does and just gives commentary/vomits out reads at the expense of real-time interaction, and immediately dips after doing so, I find that comes from scum more often than not.

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma, why don't you have a vote down? You wanted to enter the voting phase, no?

I wanted to put focus on a couple people but want to try to get some more content before I vote
Aisa would be my vote currently though.

[Gamma Emerald]

I can solve the problem of being accused of not doing any real-time interaction by promising I’ll be around and react in real time around 11pm-12am UTC today. It’s a time when a lot of you are naturally online anyway.

Otherwise I am about to begin my day so can’t address anything else rn

Anyone knows when this is EST time? It’s approximately 12:30 rn. I’d like to hear what she has to say but my vote’s probably going there since they could all be town but rn she probably looks the worst after that flip. I wish we could vote duckling though, since decent chance that hood could br S/S.

So my current reads on the 4 votable are:

furtive
Ythan/Gamma
Asia

But this time my confidence in a scumflip is a lot less.

Idk what Mastina’s thinking but furtive is obvtown here.

That’s like 7 PM EST

[Gamma Emerald]

This wagon on Aisa sucks. I'm not happy

I’m not happy with any of the options. I wanted to vote duckling but here we are. I’m happy to wait to hear what she says when she posts later today.

Could you possibly paraphrase yours and Aisa’s convos in your hood?

@Gamma, can you do that with Ythan as well or vice-versa?

Sure

[Gamma Emerald]

I wanted to vote duckling but here we are.

i too am disappointed we're not powerwashing the worst out of the game

dude is clearly scum

what the heck

That’s exactly why I opted to do what I did, tw isn’t gonna change his fate much if he’s scum

[Gamma Emerald]

aisa announced a VLA for this time period so i don't really see it as a scummy pop in

idk why but I feel like busy scum are

more

likely to do what I described

[Gamma Emerald]

That wasn’t an “I’ll do it now” per se but I’ll work on it

[Gamma Emerald]

Just gonna try to cover the bits I feel are important

Our thread starts with me mentioning a Super Mario World romhack themed around LotHT since it’s relevant to me and Ythan’s interests and I was a bit rattled during gamestart so I opted to post an icebreaker.
We then talked about how to use the hood, where I talked about my antics in the last run a bit. We then talked about what we wanted to do regarding challenges.
Ythan mentions not having much to say in the hood since her thoughts are already in the main thread. We also talked a little about video games.
I then mention my concern about mastina calling me town when my recollection is she tends to read me inversely to what I am when she’s town. I also asked Ythan to poke into the thing furtive said regarding Ceph influencing his reads.
I post the read list that I built off of for my reads I posted in-thread. One thing that I haven’t really been explicit about yet is I had Aisa as a townlean there but hadn’t really said much about in thread for a time. This resulted in some paranoia of Ythan when Flea was mixed up about my read progression on furtive/Aisa.
Ythan asks if it’s okay to mention the question I requested she asked furtive, and I give the okay. She also looks over me and furtive and comes out of it kinda suspicious of me.
I then make a comment about it feeling like multiple players are playing passive (those being tw/Meg/furtive/Flea) which was frustrating because I was considering challenging Meg+tw for the logic Cephrir stated despite him meaning the parrots. Soon after I express a desire for Flea to challenge me because I felt like fae was playing weakly.
I ask Ythan for input on my readlist in the main thread but there was some confusion on that front. This was also around the time I thought Flea and Ythan could be paired based on Flea mentioning an Aisa TR which I’d only been explicit about in the hood for a while. In addition I mention doubt about SRing mastina since she also went after Flea who was pretty UTR. Eventually Ythan reaches my readlist and says my townreads look okay and she wants to look into my SRs.
I call out 549 as weird, albeit potentially towny. I also express interest in a jaguars/parrots challenge as a “clear some of the fog around these slots” idea.
I ask Ythan about the Jaguars/Snakes challenge which prompts her to mention being behind. I also noted I felt like furtive was reading into my 573 as an associative with Meg+tw which I found inane. That’s also why I asked furtive’s thought on that post in here.
I posted *popcorn gif* in the hood when Flea got jumpy at the E-1 and voted Yume
After the first challenge finished, I posted a greeting when Ythan popped into the thread and then a sorta taunting “showtime” message when I issued my challenge. She then said that reading the current challenge would be easier than the last one since she had thoughts on the group already, to which I asked her to give thoughts on some of the still alive members of the last challenge.

[Gamma Emerald]

Our activity is similar in the hood it’s just I’m more involved in the game rn
I also cut some fluff out that was wedged in with the content

[Gamma Emerald]

Just gonna try to cover the bits I feel are important

Our thread starts with me mentioning a Super Mario World romhack

I just thought this was funny

I can’t just gloss over the opening tho?

[Gamma Emerald]

Later on I will look at other people talking to/about Meg. Let me know if you have any formatting preferences, I think my recent big post was a bit hard to read

Maybe put all posts by one person under a spoiler= tag?

[Gamma Emerald]

you could but that's not what happened cuz you're scum and you're probably malding that the rest of your team is all inactive

that's my hero solve

Wouldn’t be the first time. This is the game I’m referring to with this, for reference

[Gamma Emerald]

you could but that's not what happened cuz you're scum and you're probably malding that the rest of your team is all inactive

that's my hero solve

Wouldn’t be the first time. This is the game I’m referring to with this, for reference

You figured it out gamma, because I had a bad scumteam in some other game it must be what's happening here

bruh what

[Gamma Emerald]

phrasing!

[Gamma Emerald]

and like, can you give some thoughts on the current situation?

[Gamma Emerald]

In general, I am a bit confused as to why I'm getting scumread.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's to do with my playstyle, but it seems to be causing me more issues than when I first started playing on here again in 2022, I'm not sure if it's just an unlucky spell or if I need to reconsider some elements of my play or what. For example, Gamma:

here why I wanted to wait to explain the Aisa read: I had a meme in mind.

[image]

Basically, when a player pops in like Aisa does and just gives commentary/vomits out reads at the expense of real-time interaction, and immediately dips after doing so, I find that comes from scum more often than not.

this isn't your first encounter with me and I think that writing walls, vomiting out reads and not interacting in real time as much as other players are all features of my playstyle, maybe as either alignment. I don't think you ever thought any of these things were a problem before, so I don't understand why you suddenly think they are a problem now.

(I would like to hear your answer please)

I don’t recall it feeling like this in our past games, if I was even aware of it. I posted my logic as a meme because there was a vibe I caught.

Also:

Don't get me wrong, I think it's to do with my playstyle, but it seems to be causing me more issues than when I first started playing on here again in 2022, I'm not sure if it's just an unlucky spell or if I need to reconsider some elements of my play or what.

welcome to the club

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh my fucking god
I’ll break it down later but furtive, Logic for thinking I’m associated with Meg sucks ass

[Gamma Emerald]

also pulling the "if i were scum card" but i'd definitely not attack random people i knew would get aggro at me (nancy) or upset with me (cephrir)

Both of these assume S/T relations

Okay and?

[Gamma Emerald]

also like do you think town never defends themselves with shitty defenses?

I don't even scumread you. I just noticed an assumption

I don’t think it’s a relevant assumption unless you think both Nancy and ceph can be scum

[Gamma Emerald]

STD, if you think cephrir is scum why haven't you pushed that more actively?

also like do you think town never defends themselves with shitty defenses?

I don't even scumread you. I just noticed an assumption

I don’t think it’s a relevant assumption unless you think both Nancy and ceph can be scum

I mean, two data points are better than one and one data point is worse than two, right?
In the world of scum!STD, scum!Nancy and town!ceph, STD is still being cheeky about on 50% of his argument.

vrej

[Gamma Emerald]

That’s also a weird approach imo given scum!Ceph + town!nancy is closer to furtive’s actual reads I think

[Gamma Emerald]

I quickly TRed Aisa correctly my first time playing with her ftr

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I'm gonna try to get this done.

Here's some motivation. Goodnight everyone

VOTE: Ythan

I just noticed you haven’t gone into why you think I’m specifically associated with both Meg and tw

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Ythan
I think the evidence presented recently might be a sign she’s scum with tw, between her not really engaging there and tw dodging giving any thoughts on Ythan

[Gamma Emerald]

Gamma Emerald:

Ftr I think Ythan is town since I see no real buddying or pocketing going on rn in our thread from her

Sounds like you are being pocketed /s

StD could you elaborate on your furtive scumread?

Based on? Where is Ythan pocketing Gamma?

Gamma: I see no evidence I’m being pocketed by Ythan.

Mega: sounds like you’re being pocketed by her. Dafuq?

“/s” means it was sarcasm

1) I said this before, but this is an indirect defence of Meg.

Gnight, love to know why you're thinking that in the morning and if you still stand by it.

Yeh I do, I'd like to vote off Meg or GE primarily

Oops found it.
ngl I expected a lil more stubstance.

Why these two?

I think Meg is everyone's biggest scumread for a reason, they haven't given as much content as everyone else except for maybe Yume.

GE feels a bit strategic in terms of the reads they've given out, like (initially) scumreading me and subtly defending Meg by explaining that one of their posts was sarcastic

vrej
why do people think random ass posts of mine are "defending" people
this is not the first time it's happened but it's still stupid af
I was clarifying Meg's posts for Nancy

1) GE expresses frustration at the point I made, despite it being more or less true - clarifying Meg's remark in this case makes it make sense, and therefore counters Nancy's defensive/agressive post towards Meg.

Gnight, love to know why you're thinking that in the morning and if you still stand by it.

Yeh I do, I'd like to vote off Meg or GE primarily

Oops found it.
ngl I expected a lil more stubstance.

Why these two?

I think Meg is everyone's biggest scumread for a reason, they haven't given as much content as everyone else except for maybe Yume.

GE feels a bit strategic in terms of the reads they've given out, like (initially) scumreading me and subtly defending Meg by explaining that one of their posts was sarcastic

vrej
why do people think random ass posts of mine are "defending" people
this is not the first time it's happened but it's still stupid af
I was clarifying Meg's posts for Nancy

So it was Mega who you thought was skirting around having a read on you then?

I'd say she's skirting around multiple slots but I meant you

2) GE accuses Meg of skirting around reading players. This interests me because there is no town motivation for doing this - GE is basically saying Meg is scum, but in a very casual way. I'd consider this associative.

I posted a list in my team thread earlier so I'm building from that

townreads

cephrir: this read has gotten stronger since I first said I TR him, I like his drive that he's showing so far.
yume: I think her mastina sus was genuine and she just feels natural rn
fenrir: clearly motivated to solve I think
ythan: hood interactions are clean and she's been solid in thread too

townleans

nancy: I was concerned about the lack of read on me but I think she's towny in how she responded to that.
furtive: I've actually liked his engagement with me. He's also effectively addressed some of my concerns about him.

nulls

the worst: will figure him out eventually, no clue rn. Anyone who bothers me about accelerating this will end up on my naughty list.
aisa: I felt she was towny early but I honestly don't have a strong impression of her posting

scumleans

mastina: this is a weird crackpot read, but I don't think her read me makes sense on a couple levels. Calling me town so early seems premature, and I also think her early reads on me trend towards the opposite of my actual alignment when she's town (yes I could be scum and mastina could be town and this would be accurate but w/e).
flea: I get a bit of a bad vibe from the constant clashing with aisa + furtive while not actually meaning to put pressure there

scumreads

meg: don't care for her handling of yume/nancy and it feels a bit like she's trying to lurk out

If I wanted to tinfoil an associative, I could see flea as scum with aisa or furtive based on the clashing without pushing, it registers as potential theater.

3) Meg is the only scumread on GE's list, yet her final comment is about 3 other users, 'tinfoiling' Flea (scumlean) with a townlean and a null. This reminds me of my scumplay when I have a buddy as a scumread but am louder about a town that I 'scumread'. I'd consider this 'associative'.

Why are you okay with your team being challenged, Meg?
Also did you read the rest of the game or are you interacting in real time for now?

4) This could be inviting a partner to post/cueing them in in a way.

VOTE: MegAzumarill
Since there’s already 3 tw votes I’ll do this instead

I'm still not sure how to read this because TW hasn't flipped yet.

put numbers by what I wanted to address

1. No it's really not. It's clarifying something that was obviously misunderstood. I got mad about it because I just generally see people do a lot of lazy interpretation of my posts and I'd prefer it to fucking stop. This is where it happened before, and it was honestly stupider there. Getting accused of defending someone because of saying "I don't like their playstyle", while ALSO voting that person, is like, actively choosing to put out the most nonsense take. SO my patience for that sort of thing is very low!
   
2. It was casual because I was more focused on talking with Nancy than looking at Meg.
   
3. I put that out because I wanted to make it apparent that just because players were listed in one place in the post did not mean I wasn't considering them for scum.
   
4. Feel like there could have been better ways to do this. I specifically noted I had a thought Meg could be town for that post in the hood. I could have attempted to use that if I wanted to try and help Meg out.

[Gamma Emerald]

@gimli

could you please vote one of ythan/aisa?

[Gamma Emerald]

she's posted a couple things in the hood that seem to indicate she's making progress
I also asked for just some rough thoughts when she was available

[Gamma Emerald]

she just said she disliked having to sort thru inane stuff
also I think my request for thoughts was here and not in the hood

[Gamma Emerald]

@gimli

could you please vote one of ythan/aisa?

hi, gamma. what's the case against either, other than ythan hasn't been around and aisa people think is scummy?

I didn't like Aisa's pop-in at one point, and the Aisa wagon kinda just built from that?
Ythan felt like she dodged engaging with the first challenge.

[Gamma Emerald]

Why do you call furtive furative?

cuz i can't fucking spell lol

I thought it was just something you liked doing, like me calling Enchant “Encanto” (which I’m not doing anymore because I think it makes him uncomfortable?)

[Gamma Emerald]

why are you expecting things from someone who calls himself the worst, anyway?

He was helpful when he replaced in on my homesite

[Gamma Emerald]

you call me scum but you steal my questions so whats up with that ms nancy

You totally had me at I can call you scum. If the crimson red role pm fits . . . Oh and what questions did I steal from you?

The one about gamma's pt with ythan

I vibe with going ythan today as well

wdym by “stole questions”?

[Gamma Emerald]

not really

[Gamma Emerald]

ayo Gimli come vote Ythan so someone from every team can be part of the wagon

[Gamma Emerald]

Or anyone can do it and we just speedkill Gimli next.

[Gamma Emerald]

UNVOTE: to give mastina time to post

why? There's no deadlines in this game and it's nightless as well

[Gamma Emerald]

and how would that matter?

[Gamma Emerald]

and how would that matter?

And what's wrong with giving her a chance to say something?

a) what furtive+fenrir are saying, she's likely not going to say it until tomorrow
b) she can say it anytime unless it pertains to her town!Ythan read, in which case why'd you vote there in the first place if you were going to defer to mastina anyway?

[Gamma Emerald]

Fuck subtlety
Let’s finish this challenge so we can vote out Gimli

[Gamma Emerald]

Is furtive a real word

It’s similar to sneaky

[Gamma Emerald]

When I’m scum my daring plays probably come with some forethought
A key example would probably be me proccing my role on day 2 of isekai uPick

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Ythan

E-1

The list of players eligible to be eliminated today consists of

Gamma Emerald
Ythan

furtiveglance
Aisa

Ythan: (6) furtiveglance, Save The Dragons, Gamma Emerald, Cephrir, Yume, Nancy Drew 39
Aisa: (1) Flea The Magician,
furtiveglance: (1) mastina
Gamma Emerald:


Not Voting: Gimli, Ythan, Aisa

With 11 players in the temple, it takes 6 to eliminate.

An elimination has been reached! Hold tight for flip...

So uh, Yume is taking a swan dive in my reads for that stunt.

[Gamma Emerald]

Tbc the only thing I’m laughing at is the wagon going thru despite Yume trying to jump ship

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m down

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m more interested in Gimli’s thoughts on Flea rn

[Gamma Emerald]

okay

[Gamma Emerald]

Just kill everyone besides Nancy/flea/STD

Gamma can be the last one into the guillotine

ew

[Gamma Emerald]

Still think it’s nonsensical to tinfoil me as scum

[Gamma Emerald]

I think I wanna vote cephrir first out of the potential options

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Cephrir
Yeah that wall sells me on both mastina!town and Yume!town

[Gamma Emerald]

I am currently rereading the game.
That wall doesn't really make me see mastina!Town tbh. Why couldn't she just have bussed her scum partners? What are you seeing, Gamma?

(I do hope you recover, mastina)

I think there’s a tactical conundrum here. They both kinda led each other down the path to 3 scum dying in a row. I don’t feel like either would willingly put themselves so down in material.

[Gamma Emerald]

I am currently rereading the game.
That wall doesn't really make me see mastina!Town tbh. Why couldn't she just have bussed her scum partners? What are you seeing, Gamma?

(I do hope you recover, mastina)

I think there’s a tactical conundrum here. They both kinda led each other down the path to 3 scum dying in a row. I don’t feel like either would willingly put themselves so down in material.

mastina and who

Yume

[Gamma Emerald]

I'll put my thoughts this way: if only Nancy/Flea/Yume/GE/STD are alive and the game hasn't ended, I'd be massively shocked

I’d vote out Fenrir before you
You had ample opportunity to keep the focus on me when I challenged your team, letting Ythan die makes no sense

[Gamma Emerald]

How to do a YT video? I put the url in youtube tags and the preview just showed the link

You just use the video id
I’ll explain more later

[Gamma Emerald]

This is the same energy of mastina as not quite normal multiball 2. She never fake claims ever and then fake claimed beloved princess as mafia

If he flips town, I'll eat my shoes. Honest.

First off, don’t post this sort thing, second, if you somehow go thru with this apparently there’s a trick someone did that involved chemistry to make it easier

[Gamma Emerald]

Ignore the first quote

[Gamma Emerald]

This might be my first time being one the right side of a town stomp?

[Gamma Emerald]

Rping town to better track thoughts

I have done this as scum hydra before

[Gamma Emerald]

I feel bad the scumteam ended up in a downward spiral

[Gamma Emerald]

And again another pt which greatly helps with reads:

@Gamma, my God, like Yhan was the most obvious scum ever. Pretty much identical to random midget in Labrynth.

Would have 100% locktowned Mastina based on the pt, for some reason it didn’t translate as well.

Silver Snakes’ hood was a total laff riot. Seriously why did the two of them even bother at pretending to be town in there? lmfaoooo

When Aisa pointed out that Ceph wanted her head > Mega’s was probably the moment I was very confident it was Ceph.

I give Ceph massive props for efforting. Couldn’t be easy in your situation.

I came to the right conclusion at the right time imo.

[Gamma Emerald]

I probably would have eaten the apple pretty freely had I not been made to look a damn fool not even a year ago

[Gamma Emerald]

Thank you for the feedback, fwiw

[Gamma Emerald]

Autocorrect strikes back?