Red Wine Mafia: Game Over

[fferyllt]

Hi guys.

[fferyllt]

Funny thing Is, I think i'm probably

one of the weakest players here

. So happy to play in a game of solid players that won't self vote, melt down, or suicide in lylo for once.

Hey tammy if you're town let's be masons.

Riiiiight

[fferyllt]

get a room

VOTE: T S O

Not RVS.

[fferyllt]

would lynch Кабд for that

Can't blame фферйллт for caving into the pity bait, she's female and thus unable to control her urges.

What pity bait is that?

[fferyllt]

Just lynch him with me. hes trolling the game, speaking in other languages and being misogynistic.

Do you think he's scum?

[fferyllt]

would lynch Кабд for that

Can't blame фферйллт for caving into the pity bait, she's female and thus unable to control her urges.

What pity bait is that?

The "boo hoo I'm so bad at this game" kind.

I might very well be the person in this game least likely to buy that line.

[fferyllt]

And yet nobody gets the joke. And why ffery would respond to it specifically.

Well, I did kind of direct the focus a little.

[fferyllt]

Jokes are as foreign a concept to me as sarcasm is.
Or as foreign to me as black people.

Can't decide between the two analogies, feedback on which is preferred will be appreciated.

Are you working from a list?

[fferyllt]

Jokes are as foreign a concept to me as sarcasm is.
Or as foreign to me as black people.

Can't decide between the two analogies, feedback on which is preferred will be appreciated.

Are you working from a list?

I'm not sure what that means.

Maybe it means the list of people playing this game provided in the OP, if so I did read it. Indeed, indeed.

Or you mean my actual work, in which lists are mostly absent, and when they are not they are not terribly relevant.

I've determined the correct answer to this to be: "Maybe"
Maybe I'll even look at you mysteriously, that is optional.

sexual orientation, gender, race. I figured abledness or religion might be next.

[fferyllt]

Unless I remember incorrectly, it was rules that using non English language in posts falls under he cryptography and code site rule.

Or pjo can just move on and we can play the game without this issue hanging over everyone's heads.

I was starting to wonder if you were going to completely ignore the butterfly's great wind.

[fferyllt]

First I will UNVOTE: fferyllt

Then my initial reads:

I am getting townvibes of:

Empire

- His readspost on 37 gives me townvibes. I do not agree with TSO, Mindgamer and CTD looking town at this point, but the way he approaches my first post seems to be filled with just enough skepticism for him to get townpoints.

chamber

- The way he is going for a policy lynch on Pjovek, putting himself out there as the centre of attention for something that will get him into a lot of scrutiny, is something I don't think scum would (often) do.

CTD

- I agree with his initial reads on scum in 66 . And I like the way he respond to me, by saying he will shoot the first one over 100 posts on day 1 (This means any lurkers/inactive will get shot by me if I am vig, any spammer will get shot by CTD if he is vig, so everyone needs to stay on their best behavior)

I am getting scumvibes of:

Cabd

-His post 20 is a kind of post I don't like. The “I am so bad” routine creates an alibi and excuses. So I give him a scumpoint for this.

TSO

- Don't like his read post 22 . And especially I don't like that he puts me in possible scum, that always makes me suspicious. Also his play thus far has been disruptive IMO, and he have a lot of posts, but says very very little.

Pjovek

-His play is very disruptive I think. I know anti-town =/= scum, but I count anti-town behavior as something that gives scumvibes, so some scumpoints for Pjovek.

Espeonage

- Read below...

Other than this:

I don't like Llamarble's readlist in post 65 , it is probably meant to be funny, but from a scumhunting perspective I don't like it (because the reasons are not reasonable).

I don't think I like Espeonage's 61. He also somewhat do the "I am so bad routine". He warns Pjovek. And he tells chamber the we aren't lynching Pjovek. It is a post that to me that says very little in a lot of words, I get a feel that he tries to blend in. I upgrade him to someone I get scumvibes of.

I think fferyllt needs to start posting with more content. Got the second most posts atm, but I cannot read a lot from them. cabd is somewhat in the same boat, but at least I got scumvibes off of one of his posts.

Mindgamer seems like a funny guy and his 15 is right up my alley. But his posts so far is null for me. So are the rest of you that I haven't mentioned.

VOTE: TSO

You think I need to post with more content. But, the three players you have as scum are three of the four players I have interacted with so far. That should suggest something to you, I think.

[fferyllt]

Cabd, what are your thoughts about TSO?

[fferyllt]

About to head out to lunch and then more job searching / work but a couple of things I forgot:

Espeonage makes a rather poor choice for an early day wagon.

Why?

And especially I don't like that he puts me in possible scum, that always makes me suspicious.

Why does putting you in possible scum always make you suspicious?

When I roll town and someone reads me as scum it is either because they misread me or because they are scum. If they misread me it means that I am playing bad or they are playing bad or some combination where both of us are playing bad'ish. So it is quite possible he have misread me, but it is also possible that he is scum making up reads. Reading me as scum makes you appear on my radar, it makes me question your motives.

So you feel that your style of play as town is so "mainstream" for want of a better adjective that you should be easy to read? How does data from games you've played match this expectation?

[fferyllt]

Unvote, vote Pjovek

I had a habit of posting weird lyrics in my first post as scum, nobody ever caught me on it. It was like a serial killer's ritual.

Easily the most scummy post in this game

vote Alberto Bono Rompage

Selfmeta(1) on something completely meaningless(2), plus some fearmongering(3) on top because why not and to top it off, a shittily justified(4) jump on an easy wagon(5)

Wow 5 scum. So amaze.

It's totally true and provable. This is a legit vote.

So what if it's true concerning yourself.
You'll note that I never even expressed doubt in that, because it simply does not matter, and I was not talking about that at all.

My point is that it means squat fuckall in regards to my alignment, and you have not shown how it would at all.
I get it, it's hard to prove something that's completely wrong, but you're not even trying. This resignation means you already know the conclusion, but would still like to go there regardless.

I'm feeling a little skittish after our last encounter, but this line of argument in your interaction with ABR rings of town.

[fferyllt]

About to head out to lunch and then more job searching / work but a couple of things I forgot:

Espeonage makes a rather poor choice for an early day wagon.

Why?

And especially I don't like that he puts me in possible scum, that always makes me suspicious.

Why does putting you in possible scum always make you suspicious?

When I roll town and someone reads me as scum it is either because they misread me or because they are scum. If they misread me it means that I am playing bad or they are playing bad or some combination where both of us are playing bad'ish. So it is quite possible he have misread me, but it is also possible that he is scum making up reads. Reading me as scum makes you appear on my radar, it makes me question your motives.

So you feel that your style of play as town is so "mainstream" for want of a better adjective that you should be easy to read? How does data from games you've played match this expectation?

My playstyle as townie is pretty straightforward and open. I think the way I play as town is the optimal one (obviously, if I didn't I would change it). I hate players who dumb down their townplay just so that they can have an easier game as scum. I am fairly good at catching scum, and I am very often voting (final vote) for scum (I would say 50% of the times, even though that sounds a bit much) in the earlier rounds. Feel free to hold me to this, if I keep missing I should get lycnhed (I will protest it though, but I can't refute the arguement).

In my 8 games on TeamLiquid I have as town:
• Survived to the end one time, winning with town.
• Been nightkilled night 1 by scum two games.
• Been nightkilled by scum lategame after claiming vet (steacked)
• Been lynched in late game after throwing a hissyfit on a player who almost voted with me, but kept insulting me. I told him to fuck off and vote me, I don’t cater to morons.
• Lynched day two when two of the most respected players of the site rolled scum and pulled all their influence in on getting me lynched. I also played a shit shit game and deserved it.

As scum:
• One game nightkilled night 1. Was playing poorly, but might have survived a while, but one of the good townplayers of the site read me easily.
• One game nightkilled night 2. Would 100% have gotten lynched on day 3 if I didn’t get viged.

In my opinion my townplay is far better than my scumplay, because I play such an open game, and have trouble imitating that as scum. IMO you can only be considered a great scumplayer if you are a great townplayer, if you are a shit townplayer then imitating your meta is easy.

I was more curious about the alignments of people who scumread you in the past - if it's actually alignment predictive. In my case, being scumread as town, especially in the early game doesn't correlate that well with the player's alignment, but does seem to correlate (in town players) fairly well with certain methods of scumhunting.

[fferyllt]

I'm not afraid of TL meta. ftr I've played there a couple times. Same name.

[fferyllt]

Regarding TSO himself, I really don't see the gotcha! in any of his posts. Yes, his attack on the perceived "buddying" we use to sort each other sometimes was annoying, but IIRC people have bitched about it before as both alignments. What makes the way he went about it more likely to come from a scum motive?

Given where the "buddying" led in the last game he played with both of us, I though a cut it out sort of reaction was kinda off.

[fferyllt]

Firstly, Pjovek is just completely Town. Like totally. Get the fuck off him.

ffery, the buddying and paranoia between you and Cabd, as well as being annoying, lead to him being paranoia-lynched d2 and you coasting to a scum win. Is that what you meant when you said that my reaction was off?

Yep. "cut it out" seems like an anemic reaction if you really think this is buddying.

[fferyllt]

When did I ever say it was buddying?

You agreed with Cabd's characterization in post 110, so I used it with scarequotes. "buddying" is not how I'd describe how Cabd and I interact during the early days of a new game.

[fferyllt]

When did I ever say it was buddying?

You agreed with Cabd's characterization in post 110, so I used it with scarequotes. "buddying" is not how I'd describe how Cabd and I interact during the early days of a new game.

Cabd said "buddying." you said "buddying." I said buddying. it was the buzzword. in short, I don't want you two doing it, because I feel it's easily manipulable.

I'm going to do what I need to do in order to get a read.

[fferyllt]

Serious, acts the part, also no interaction with partners.

The game where I played with scum-him, he bussed his partners. He actually suggested moving the lynchwagon from one partner to the other on day 1.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=56&t=28947

[fferyllt]

I've seen Pjovek scum. This isn't it.

How would you describe Pjovek's scum play?

One thing that I think holds true with his play is that you can look at what sort of information he evokes/generates, and what he does with it, and derive some thoughts about his alignment.

[fferyllt]

Yes, that holds true for everybody ever.

Sorta. Some players let the data come to them. And there are varying degrees of proactiveness in generating data. You're pretty far out on the proactive side of that continuum, and your tools of choice are iconoclastic from what I've seen.

[fferyllt]

I could care less if Pjovek is disruptive, he's probably not mafia. Bad wagon.

Pjovek is perfectly capable of trolling as scum.

That's quite true. Do you think he's scum in this game?

[fferyllt]

I was reading back over what I missed while sleeping and was about to make a post about TSB taking his head out of his ass and actually being helpful, but I guess I can skip that now.

I feel abrasiveness usually helps in a quick transit from RVS.

I could care less if Pjovek is disruptive, he's probably not mafia. Bad wagon.

Pjovek is perfectly capable of trolling as scum.

Why do you think that?

ABR, can you explain what you see in Mindgamer?

I was seriously thinking about unvoting you this morning. Maybe not.

Did you even look at the pjovik scum game I linked?

[fferyllt]

What are 183 and 184 in reference to, TSO?

[fferyllt]

I did. Did you look at the scum game I linked?

Because although he tried to disregard it, I still consider it perfectly valid.

Your question to Tammy about why she thinks scum-pjovik could troll doesn't make sense. The only way it does make sense is if you didn't check out that game. She is in the player list, and scum-pjo trolled like a boss during day 1 of that game.

[fferyllt]

This is a ridiculously boring line of questioning. 1: we should just be lynching pjo anyway. 2: Do you honestly expect as town that T S O would be that intellectually honest with himself? I'm not knocking T S O here, you just set a really high bar. No one is going to Deep Read a game just because you link it as a reference, they'll skim it quickly focusing on pjos posts and then just pick out the things that reinforce their initial opinion anyway. I missed that Tammy was in that game.

The whole point of my linking that game was because it's a counter-example to the game TSO is talking about. It's fucking proof that pjovik trolls as scum. You can't call him town here because he's trolling. You can call him maybe-town for what the apparent desired effect of the trolling is, and how he's using the information to sort people, but that's a tentative read, at least for me.

[fferyllt]

also ffery, do you open every game with the same message to stop yourself being read early?

devious.

heh. There are actually a number of variations on the theme, and there might even be something alignment indicative to some of the variations for all I know. Given how I approach RVS, the opening post does the job.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: ffery

Also pjo I get the feeling you don't like your feminine side. A shame. Gotta embrace that kind of thing.

Now, I'm thinking this is town Cabd. And then I'm thinking if anybody knows what makes me think "town" it's you. So, no townpile for you. Not yet anyway.

[fferyllt]

That is one of the weakest paranoia-of-cabd posts i've ever seen from you. Ever. I like my vote.

That's because it's not paranoia. I decided to try your purported approach.

[fferyllt]

I already sorted her. Sheep me.

If it were that simple. If it were only that simple.

/rift.

[fferyllt]

I must have dreamed it. I thought someone posted that Empire food tells are town tells.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Tammy

[fferyllt]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

[fferyllt]

That is one of the weakest paranoia-of-cabd posts i've ever seen from you. Ever. I like my vote.

That's because it's not paranoia. I decided to try your purported approach.

[fferyllt]

Free-floating anchorless paranoia is something I'm working on not doing. It screws up my reads and my play in a variety of bad ways that don't stop with the object of paranoia.

1430 was a sort of swan song wrt baseless paranoia about Cabd. I intentionally played that card to the max, and then burnt it to a crisp.

[fferyllt]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

Yes that is the case, though I'd expect scum to hide it better.

Not really too conclusive it honestly depends on how bad she is at this game/scum.

She's impressive as town. The one scum game of hers where I played with her, she did a good job of incorporating some of her signature town-play, though on reread I spotted a few things I'll keep in mind. Cabd linked to that game in an earlier post.

[fferyllt]

you should get your eyes checked then.

[fferyllt]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

That's why your voting me? It's probably sillier than why I thought your original reason was for.

As far as feeling like I'm floating, that's probably a town tell for me so thanks for pointing it out. No, seriously at my other site me *not* feeling like I'm floating early day one has often been a cause for concern. I much much prefer to observe early game than push something, and this player list allows me to do just that.

Then maybe it's the games we've played, because I haven't really noticed that you are so heavily into observation mode in the early game.

And the other part is a flat out lie. I have a couple pretty decent town reads, ham watching how you/cabd play out, am looking to interact with empire, which is quite frankly the most important thing to me early game. If I can figure out if we're on the same team and the same wavelength, this game will go much more smoothly.

You may have reads (I know I do) but you don't appear to be putting any work into refining them. It's just whatever gets laid down in the thread. And your play is somewhat enigmatic.

I'm trying to figure out if this push is real or if you saw espeonage asking about me/saw cabd responding and with his vote on you thought this would be a good distraction especially considering you haven't even tried to interact with me, and if you *do* remember our last game where I was scum I made sure to make it look like I was "scumhunting" immediately.

What you did in that game was kind of off, though not in immediately obvious ways. This feels off, too, at least based on the experiential meta I have to go on.

Also, this *is* interaction with you.

[fferyllt]

I don't need to dance with her when she goes and does the one thing that claims scum in my eyes, tammy.

Voting early? Seen her do that before.

I don't think it's the early vote.

[fferyllt]

I don't need to dance with her when she goes and does the one thing that claims scum in my eyes, tammy.

Voting early? Seen her do that before.

I don't think it's the early vote.

It's interesting, because I get the same "click" sometimes when GiF votes me, because I knew the vote would happen before I hit "submit", and decided to post it anyway.

[fferyllt]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

That's why your voting me? It's probably sillier than why I thought your original reason was for.

As far as feeling like I'm floating, that's probably a town tell for me so thanks for pointing it out. No, seriously at my other site me *not* feeling like I'm floating early day one has often been a cause for concern. I much much prefer to observe early game than push something, and this player list allows me to do just that.

Then maybe it's the games we've played, because I haven't really noticed that you are so heavily into observation mode in the early game.

Don't ever meta me off so few games. My play is completely inconsistent and based on several factors, not merely including my mood. And actually this accusation doesn't make any sense. In mafia.raptured, scum accused me of not scumhunting early in the game, and I only got really engaged when syryana started trolling me and we danced, and I totally dipped out of that game pretty strongly and only really scum read someone for interrupting syryana and I's dance. In Chef mafia, the only real substantial early argument I had was with Amrun when she started calling me scum for trying too hard because I joked about a town block; it wasn't until mid day one before I actually started getting and pushing a read. In hard boiled, the only thing day one I argued about was when scum claimed that Mala was scum because she was being too protown. And in the one scum game you have experience with me on, I immediately came out and attacked someone so I'd look like I was scumhunting.

So, what is your argument again?

And the other part is a flat out lie. I have a couple pretty decent town reads, ham watching how you/cabd play out, am looking to interact with empire, which is quite frankly the most important thing to me early game. If I can figure out if we're on the same team and the same wavelength, this game will go much more smoothly.

You may have reads (I know I do) but you don't appear to be putting any work into refining them. It's just whatever gets laid down in the thread. And your play is somewhat enigmatic.

So, I mean, so? It's early day one, a day I hate and traditionally struggle with. When we get to day two or three and I'm not "putting in the work" then talk to me. Until then, your arguments are silly as hell. Barely anyone has made an impression. I'm not going to give reads I don't have. I'm not going to clutter the thread just so you or anyone else can feel better that I *look* like I'm scumhunting. What I give in the thread is what I feel. And if you don't see that the absolute one tiny little, actually really big thing for me, is that I want to sort empire, then I really don't know what to tell you. My play is not enigmatic, it's town, thanks.

I'm trying to figure out if this push is real or if you saw espeonage asking about me/saw cabd responding and with his vote on you thought this would be a good distraction especially considering you haven't even tried to interact with me, and if you *do* remember our last game where I was scum I made sure to make it look like I was "scumhunting" immediately.

What you did in that game was kind of off, though not in immediately obvious ways. This feels off, too, at least based on the experiential meta I have to go on.

You need more experience with me to actually meta me. Kindly read a few of my scum games, and then come in here and tell me how I'm awesomely town, thanks.

Also, this *is* interaction with you.

Super sweet. Are you trying to retroactively tell me I was wrong. Because before *this* post you weren't interacting with me, so I'm sorry but you don't get to act all superior bullshit this is interaction *after* I said there was none.

The only reason we're talking right now is because I voted you. You don't get to tell me what is interaction and what isn't.

[fferyllt]

The only reason we're talking right now is because I voted you. You don't get to tell me what is interaction and what isn't.

Yes, I do.

And if you call voting me interacting with me, your entire argument about me not trying to sort anyone is not only hypocritical but it's stupid too.

I'm getting all sorts of data. Hopefully plenty more on the way.

[fferyllt]

Cabd's right? Your scum aren't you ffery?

If you think Cabd is right about me, why is your vote on espeonage?

[fferyllt]

Nice way to ensure every option is covered so that no matter what answer could be given. And you're telling me you aren't trying to incriminate out of nothing. I don't care if he knows your meta or not. I care that is was an honest answer. Cabd might actually be mafia, he might have been trying to push me into hastily voting for you. But, as I keep saying: That. Is. Not. Why. I. Am. Voting. You!

PEdit: Hmm?

You're voting mindgamer?

[fferyllt]

Nice way to ensure every option is covered so that no matter what answer could be given. And you're telling me you aren't trying to incriminate out of nothing. I don't care if he knows your meta or not. I care that is was an honest answer. Cabd might actually be mafia, he might have been trying to push me into hastily voting for you. But, as I keep saying: That. Is. Not. Why. I. Am. Voting. You!

PEdit: Hmm?

You're voting mindgamer?

This is a pretty shitty response. I wonder if your argument is consistent with a scum spat.

I'm pretty confused by that reply actually.

[fferyllt]

UNVOTE

Whether the Chosen game is good meta or not, what I got back from her in that game was chaotic, but not what I think of as town chaotic when I reread our exchange.

[fferyllt]

From that, you can take that this exchange came off more town to me.

[fferyllt]

It's mindgamer. We should lynch mindgamer.

Your basis is your post 167? I feel like he could be sort of avoiding the thread since his last post.

[fferyllt]

Also, why is Cabd voting for you if not for the early vote?

I am amused and want to hear the answer to this, though!

I know the vote caught your eye. But I think what drew your vote is what was missing from my posts between my vote and yours.

[fferyllt]

I have lesser reads on Cabd/fferyllt

Mutually exclusive, oooor?

What are your thoughts about espeonage?

[fferyllt]

meh. that would make him inno child.

Still, I'm going to sheep Empire.

VOTE: espeonage

[fferyllt]

Because I like his 306 and thought much the same when I read your entrance.

I was going to give Cabd a chance to make a real effort at sorting me before putting my vote down again but the game is stagnated.

[fferyllt]

If you ISO'd that aborted game you'd probably see where my head is at this game. I think you'll figure it out with time.

[fferyllt]

If you ISO'd that aborted game you'd probably see where my head is at this game. I think you'll figure it out with time.

Is this what I wanted you to think last time?

I don't know what you mean, so I don't know.

[fferyllt]

I figured out what you mean and no.

[fferyllt]

No, totally off. Don't worry about it.

[fferyllt]

No, totally off. Don't worry about it.

It's been a day and I'm still worrying about it. What now?

Stop?

I embarked upon a thought process change in that game. I thought it was fairly transparent at the time, but rereading my ISO from an outside perspective it wasn't all that transparent after all.

[fferyllt]

chamber is actually legit mafia

unvote
vote chamber

He's planning on acting like an useless emo all game anyways so even if you disagreed for some reason you should still lynch him so it's fine.

Do you think he's scum?

[fferyllt]

Ceph this game has sucked all the oxygen out of my brain. If somebody will fucking play mafia I'll probably stop moldering.

[fferyllt]

Ceph this game has sucked all the oxygen out of my brain. If somebody will fucking play mafia I'll probably stop moldering.

But you were doing it on like page 4 before it became clear (presumably, I'm not seeing this yet) that this game is just a clusterfuck.

Page 4 is a good place to do it in some games, and I have a habit of dropping into pedantic Socratic mode around players who seem new-ish. It's that or snark, sometimes. I got into that mode with the Bard guy because he looked like he might wind up in a site meta collision, and I have a soft spot for TL players.

[fferyllt]

Why did you have to be asked for this explanation? Surely you are voting Tammy here because you think she's scum, and if so, why give no reason initially, thereby ensuring no one would sheep you?

I didn't want sheep. I wanted reactions, particularly some reaction from Tammy because unlike some players who seem to be able to read her out of thin air (and I'm not dissing their ability to read her, I just don't have it, myself) I need to interact, or I need to see her interact with someone I *can* read.

That wasn't happening.

[fferyllt]

But ffery! I like free floating anchorless paranoia!

I'll never undersand why people do anything intentionally in their posts as town (well, except overall trends designed to improve their towngame overall). I just spew what I'm thinking onto the page 99% of the time.

I was scum in 1430. Everything I did was intentional.

[fferyllt]

1436, not 1430.

[fferyllt]

I was having trouble deciding on a top suspect between Espeon and ffery. Other scumleans include ABR and Pjo.

I guess what it boils down to is, I've seen you be town quite a few times, and I've doubted you a couple of those times, but in none of those cases did you look like this! I don't agree with your objection that people aren't playing mafia- we do have some lurkers, and we do have Pjo not really playing, but that's not that big a deal. You recovered a little with the Tammy interaction but it's not enough for me.

Even though I like the Espeonage wagon, it's a little scary, because ffery's on it and because Mindgamer's vote was so bad. So for now I'm gonna go with this. I'm worried about possibly costing the town a valuable asset, but I can't let that hold me back all the damn time.

VOTE: ffery

More on this story as it develops! I may also try looking at fferyscum again even though I failed pretty savagely at it in Hard Boiled.

:/

You've never played with scum-me so it's at least a little understandable that my play here rings alarms. Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

[fferyllt]

I was having trouble deciding on a top suspect between Espeon and ffery. Other scumleans include ABR and Pjo.

I guess what it boils down to is, I've seen you be town quite a few times, and I've doubted you a couple of those times, but in none of those cases did you look like this! I don't agree with your objection that people aren't playing mafia- we do have some lurkers, and we do have Pjo not really playing, but that's not that big a deal. You recovered a little with the Tammy interaction but it's not enough for me.

Even though I like the Espeonage wagon, it's a little scary, because ffery's on it and because Mindgamer's vote was so bad. So for now I'm gonna go with this. I'm worried about possibly costing the town a valuable asset, but I can't let that hold me back all the damn time.

VOTE: ffery

More on this story as it develops! I may also try looking at fferyscum again even though I failed pretty savagely at it in Hard Boiled.

:/

You've never played with scum-me so it's at least a little understandable that my play here rings alarms. Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

Holy fuck, my vote was only half serious to poke your anthill and see what color of ants come out but you ARE scum.

Nope.

[fferyllt]

Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

I refuse to even start to think that this line came from town ffery. Compare this to her reactions to being voted for as town and it's ewewewewewew no.

OOOOOH that makes sense.

You haven't been thinking.

Maybe you should try it.

[fferyllt]

Or maybe it's the oxygen/brain thing. I'm not kidding about how lacking in anything resembling energy and interest this game has been prior to Ceph's replace-in.

[fferyllt]

Be sure and mine Rapture and River City.

[fferyllt]

Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

I refuse to even start to think that this line came from town ffery. Compare this to her reactions to being voted for as town and it's ewewewewewew no.

OOOOOH that makes sense.

You haven't been thinking.

Maybe you should try it.

More votes on this please.

I will pull examples of how townffery reacts to votes on her by players she thinks should know better. This reaction ain't it.

Actually, if you want to

talk

about why I have wanted to give you slack for misreading me/my style in this game I'm not averse. I alluded to it yesterday when I mentioned the cratered game.

[fferyllt]

chamber is actually legit mafia

unvote
vote chamber

He's planning on acting like an useless emo all game anyways so even if you disagreed for some reason you should still lynch him so it's fine.

Do you think he's scum?

I said so in the exact post you quoted, I'd say chances are yes is the correct answer to your question.

Do you not read?

Evidently I didn't read the first line of your post. :/

Ok then.

[fferyllt]

Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

I refuse to even start to think that this line came from town ffery. Compare this to her reactions to being voted for as town and it's ewewewewewew no.

OOOOOH that makes sense.

You haven't been thinking.

Maybe you should try it.

More votes on this please.

I will pull examples of how townffery reacts to votes on her by players she thinks should know better. This reaction ain't it.

Actually, if you want to

talk

about why I have wanted to give you slack for misreading me/my style in this game I'm not averse. I alluded to it yesterday when I mentioned the cratered game.

[fferyllt]

No, that would be being nice.

No, that would be refining a currently shit read. If you're town, it behooves us both to work this out.

[fferyllt]

I think you voted me because I was doing what I called Tammy out for, more or less floating through the game. There was a point between my vote and yours where the lack of something to sink my teeth into bothered me, but not enough to shake things up in a player list with a number of players unknown to me. I wanted to observe longer. The lack of stuff going on pushed observation in the direction of apathy.

[fferyllt]

No reason to try. If that's not it, it's something in a personal blind space and I won't see it from my own vantage point.

[fferyllt]

I was having trouble deciding on a top suspect between Espeon and ffery. Other scumleans include ABR and Pjo.

I guess what it boils down to is, I've seen you be town quite a few times, and I've doubted you a couple of those times, but in none of those cases did you look like this! I don't agree with your objection that people aren't playing mafia- we do have some lurkers, and we do have Pjo not really playing, but that's not that big a deal. You recovered a little with the Tammy interaction but it's not enough for me.

Even though I like the Espeonage wagon, it's a little scary, because ffery's on it and because Mindgamer's vote was so bad. So for now I'm gonna go with this. I'm worried about possibly costing the town a valuable asset, but I can't let that hold me back all the damn time.

VOTE: ffery

More on this story as it develops! I may also try looking at fferyscum again even though I failed pretty savagely at it in Hard Boiled.

:/

You've never played with scum-me so it's at least a little understandable that my play here rings alarms. Cabd on the other hand knows that I'm not a ball of fire in every town game, so if he's town he's not going to have a whole lot of excuse for misreading me after my eventual flip.

Would you expect that Syry would be able to read you just as well or differently than you expect Cabd to read you? Because, in mafia.raptured when Syry was reading you completely wrong, you didn't set up this preemptive blame to get him to change his read; you tried to work with him.

At the time of Raptured? No, I didn't think it was strange that town-Syr would misread me in that game. Even though he was misreading me, Syr did keep talking to me when he was around and did figure me out eventually. He's a lot better at reading me now, but not perfect.

Among other reasons why I'd hope Cabd would get this right is the fact that he read the Rapture game while it was in progress, as well as probably ever other game I've played since he joined MS. And he was part of nearly all the scum games I've played in that time. If I were scum with town-him scumreading me, I'd probably assume that meta points to my being scum unequivocally and play an extremely quiet, low-interaction game, like I wound up doing in the Chef game.

Since I'm not scum, I'm assuming that he's misinterpreting meta and/or my play here, or the available meta

as he interprets it

doesn't differentiate my town game well enough, or this isn't a meta-based read at all. Or he's scum and he thinks I'm mislynchable. I can squint and just barely see a possibility that Cabd is so convinced I'm scum that there's no point in considering the possibility of being wrong or in doing anything active to refine the read.

[fferyllt]

Not much need to figure the rest of the game out right now if we already have ABR.

One scum at a time~

My IQ may only be this high once in November. Caffeine is a powerful drug and must be maximized.
I will VOTE: ABR though. This is the chosen wagon of the townblock.

Can one of you explain why ABR?

[fferyllt]

ffery is still talking about cabd

Vote: ffery

You think I should ignore a direct question to me from another player?

[fferyllt]

I'll give my reasoning for suspecting him if that's an adequate substitute.

He isn't scumhunting; he focused on a total bullshit tell from Pjovek for quite a while and seemed to take his own RVS reason seriously; his posts are waaaaay too interested in pleasing everyone (170, 172, 330). His post 91 is a bad reaction to Pjovek's vote (na na na you can't prooooove anything- sounds like a player who just joined the site...) He's been tunneling Mindgamer as though he's really really sure the guy is scum with only this reasoning:

He posted two images and the following post:

I don't care if hes scum or not, Hes getting lynched, we can figure out who the scum are day 2. Hes never going to be anything but disruptive, and is a detriment to the game whether hes scum or not.

Is this assumption based on earlier experience with Pjovek or just on these three pages?

That said, I'll happily join the joker wagon.

Unvote. Vote: Pjovek

I am out of RVS.

This is slightly suspicious (compared to everyone else), because I'd expect scum to ask a question like this and join a bandwagon, seems like a safe move.

To be frank, I voted Pjovek without even reading the next 3 pages, and when I did see the bandwagon on him, I was happy to keep my vote there because we generally get better reads with pressure.

"This is slightly suspicious". And then he later says everyone else is townie- it reads like he doesn't want to attract attention or make enemies to me.

Personally I also find his tone to be really awkward, but I imagine I'll be disagreed with there.

Also, in post 409 where he responds to me, I feel like he should have been weirded out by Katsuki hopping off him and onto his target, but he wasn't.

Why do you have to post something like this when I'm trying to work up to full-bore paranoia about you?

Yeah, I'm thinking you're town.

espeonage not so much. I like my vote there even more after that vote-hop.

[fferyllt]

I want to name this guy Supersaint because I don't want him lynched ever ever ever just for this.

damnit

I wanted to refute your read, so I went back to his ISO to pull some posts that I didn't like from earlier, and on reread I'm not hating them. Some of them I even like.

Unvote

I'm going to try a complete reread.

[fferyllt]

No vote, don't want to make enemies?

It's usually the first vote switch that makes enemies.

Hi everyone. I might have rolled vigilante this game, and if I have I will shoot a lurker/inactive player. So stay active or get shot (maybe)

I also may or may not be a vig. If I am, I will shoot the first player to make more than 100 posts on D1.

It's k tho, I know it'll never happen. Even he does not really want it. His mind tells him he should want it, but his heart is not in it.

Pjovek, do you happen to know Chamber's alignment? It's okay, it not too late to confess.

vote: Pjovek

Slight pings from TSO. Espeonage makes a rather poor choice for an early day wagon.

I like this post, though I disagree with the vote. Noting his stance on Espeonage, which I like a little better on reread.

Not in the way you mean it.
I am however perfectly capable of reading people and reaching conclusions.

Do you habitually antagonize people you are town reading? Why are you town reading him?

Espeonage makes a rather poor choice for an early day wagon.

Why?

Because he's the closest I have to a town read at this point. His rustiness reads as sincere to me.

Why no walls yet CTD?

I'm fresh out of bricks.

I don't trust anyone's meta on Pjovek. Projectmatt's page 3 read of him is suspect to me. Same goes for TSO's page 5 read. Both players were denouncing the wagon without proposing an alternative. TSO is still not voting. Neither player has shown any interest in figuring out players or moving the game along. TSO gets bonus scum-points for threatening to vig an alleged town read.

unvote, vote: TSO

Empire, what's your read on Tammy so far?

What is it about these meta reads that you don't trust? I can't tell if you distrust the meta because you're scumreading the players or you're scumreading the players because you distrust the meta. You indicated some concern about TSO in the earlier post, so maybe it's some of both?

[fferyllt]

Reading through ISOs, I got a strong impression that she's just kinda floating through the early game, not really making any effort to develop reads or sort anyone.

That's why your voting me? It's probably sillier than why I thought your original reason was for.

As far as feeling like I'm floating, that's probably a town tell for me so thanks for pointing it out. No, seriously at my other site me *not* feeling like I'm floating early day one has often been a cause for concern. I much much prefer to observe early game than push something, and this player list allows me to do just that.

And the other part is a flat out lie. I have a couple pretty decent town reads, ham watching how you/cabd play out, am looking to interact with empire, which is quite frankly the most important thing to me early game. If I can figure out if we're on the same team and the same wavelength, this game will go much more smoothly.

I'm trying to figure out if this push is real or if you saw espeonage asking about me/saw cabd responding and with his vote on you thought this would be a good distraction especially considering you haven't even tried to interact with me, and if you *do* remember our last game where I was scum I made sure to make it look like I was "scumhunting" immediately.

Rereading this, I'm seeing we made a disconnect re the bolded. "not really making any effort" meant that I didn't see you pursuing lines of questioning. Your reads refinement looks like it's based mostly on what's being left in the thread from other players' interactions. And your own prior paragraph actually reinforces that - observing rather than pushing.

I don't get a lot of data from watching people in observation mode, hence my deciding to interact.

[fferyllt]

It's mindgamer. We should lynch mindgamer.

You Town-looking bastard you.

[/quote]

When I read this, I went back to see where your vote is, and rediscovered that you're not voting. You've FoSed Katsuki. You've expressed paranoia about Tammy. You've clucked disapprovingly at a few players.

What are your reads?

[fferyllt]

^^ actually you've indicated a couple of town reads as well. It's just disconcerting that given the length of time and lack of vote that you haven't closed with someone and really tried to sort them.

[fferyllt]

He posted two images and the following post:

I don't care if hes scum or not, Hes getting lynched, we can figure out who the scum are day 2. Hes never going to be anything but disruptive, and is a detriment to the game whether hes scum or not.

Is this assumption based on earlier experience with Pjovek or just on these three pages?

That said, I'll happily join the joker wagon.

Unvote. Vote: Pjovek

I am out of RVS.

This is slightly suspicious (compared to everyone else), because I'd expect scum to ask a question like this and join a bandwagon, seems like a safe move.

To be frank, I voted Pjovek without even reading the next 3 pages, and when I did see the bandwagon on him, I was happy to keep my vote there because we generally get better reads with pressure.

You voted mindgamer because this post was apparently the most suspicious thing in the thread at that point. Is that still the case? It seems like pretty thin gruel to be pushing for lynch 20 pages into the game.

[fferyllt]

Empire, your posts have a sort of consultant feel to them. It worries me.

[fferyllt]

Of the existing wagons, Fferyllt looks the most appealing by far. The overall thrust of her posts is familiar, but it feels like she's engaging with only a narrow selection of players and I don't get the impression that she's trying to figure the game out as is her usual style. This is what I imagine scum-Ffery trying to emulate her town play looks like.

I think this is part of my problem, though not all of it. There is pretty high ratio of talking about people as opposed to talking to them happening. And this is an example. This vote is lazy, CTD. Instead of engaging me you commentate and vote.

If I'm town, I can be an asset, and you've played with me enough to know that. If I'm scum, engaging me is far more likely to cause me to generate associations.

[fferyllt]

I mean, he did give you something you could reply to. Frankly, I feel the same way.

I would assume so given where your vote is. But, you've at least talked to me about posts you didn't like and why.

[fferyllt]

I am engaging you by voting you. Yes you can be an asset if you are town, but I shouldn't have to draw it out of you by striking up a conversation. I believe that would be playing to your strength as a scum player, as that part of your play is easiest to fake. This is a much better approach to get you out of your comfort zone.

It's playing to my strength as a town player. I don't town-tell. I don't obvtown. I plod through games, post by post, and with a very few exceptions, people read me by determining the motivation behind the body of work. I can't fake that, so as scum my goal is to maintain consistency, telegraph stance changes carefully, and never get to a place where body of work matters. My best scum games do have a conversational aspect to them, and I can come off pretty genuine if I'm careful, but it's not as spontaneous my town play.

[fferyllt]

@ffery: I have no qualms with you responding to the players you are. I do have a problem with you not engaging with the rest of the players in the game. I make quite clear that I was ready to try and sus out yourself and cabd, and considering he at least shows signs of helping, you've been very narrow in your approach, which is a very bad town strategy for day one as you both make it more difficult for yourself to find real scum, but you also make yourself harder to read.

After that post of mine, you made yet another post about nothing but cabd, and for that progression of events, I voted you.

I missed the post, then. What did you ask me?

[fferyllt]

Unvote

I get the impression that one of Cabd and ffery is scum, but I really can't point out which one. One is stringing along another to stay away from having to engage with the rest of the game, just not sure which way that goes. And I want this isolated banter to end. So if you are the townie in that couple, please make an active attempt to get into the gritty of todays play. If only so we can get a good read on the other.

This?

Once again, should I have ignored Tammy's question to me?

[fferyllt]

Heh. At least some of the fire is coming after I bestirred myself.

I dunno. I think that an actual look at my iso prior to yesterday/today will show that I haven't been as focused as all that.

[fferyllt]

I am engaging you by voting you. Yes you can be an asset if you are town, but I shouldn't have to draw it out of you by striking up a conversation. I believe that would be playing to your strength as a scum player, as that part of your play is easiest to fake. This is a much better approach to get you out of your comfort zone.

I don't town-tell. I don't obvtown.

Yes you do D:

There is maybe a handful of people who can read me accurately by page 2 or 3 of a game. For most players it takes quite a few posts to develop a read. Even players who have played with me frequently. From what I've seen, that includes you.

[fferyllt]

Can we leave meta reads out of the game until we actually have a decent amount of posts to take something from. Each game is different and town meta is emulatable. They are not reliable as a case or a defense. You can use it to back something you find scummy up, but don't use it as a base.

No.

You should scumhunt as you see fit, though.

[fferyllt]

Yeah but normally I'm paranoid for a while and then I stop being paranoid, correctly so. This game I just think you're scum. Relatedly, I have not seen you be scum.

I can't ignore this correlation.

That's too bad for both of us if you're town.

Though, I'm in the middle of kinda fun state of mind with regard to this game. I see myself as approaching confirmed town status and my reads are going to be golden if that happens. So I should keep working on those reads.

[fferyllt]

I don't town-tell. I don't obvtown.

I wish you did. >.>

So do I!

[fferyllt]

Among other reasons why I'd hope Cabd would get this right is the fact that he read the Rapture game while it was in progress, as well as probably ever other game I've played since he joined MS. And he was part of nearly all the scum games I've played in that time. If I were scum with town-him scumreading me, I'd probably assume that meta points to my being scum unequivocally and play an extremely quiet, low-interaction game, like I wound up doing in the Chef game.
.

Okay so self meta is probably one of my biggest mafia weaknesses, but you don't think you'd change up your interaction with him at all from the last time you were scum opposite him? I get the impetus, in stacking the deck I wanted to avoid nacho as much as I could, but it was impossible, and there and chosen I lauded to what I thought he would expect from me. So, wouldn't you? In chef mafia you definitely interacted with us and appealed to sysy's incorrect read on you in raptured and I've completely forgotten where I'm going with this. I've had a bit to drink and should probably just go to sleep.

I don't know where you're going with it either. But, when I feel like I'm not fooling people I need to fool as scum, my game gets pretty minimalist That was what happened in the Chef game. I never start a game as scum expecting to be around to see the game end. I focus on positioning my team well, putting a lot of thought into the night game, and try not to leave pointers to my team in the game thread. Not always successfully.

I think I alluded to this earlier. It's not just a case of changing up my interaction with him. I intentionally burnt my scum game to the ground in that last game. I've also been messing with my town game, though I may abandon that idea any minute now.

But, there's stuff that's easy to change and there's stuff that's either difficult or below the threshold of awareness internally.

[fferyllt]

Guys I already explained why Katsuki was scum. Free towncred available. let's go.

Link? And what did you think of her predecessor? I thought he looked pretty town.

[fferyllt]

Tammy, Empire,

What are your thoughts about ABP?

[fferyllt]

10/10 would lynch katsuki over TSO

hue

you should see the game where I won as scum over TSO. His play there was completely different, as is mine here. Probably has to do with an alignment swap.

His push here is insincere at best, and pretty much BS.

Want to see another reason Katsuki is scum? He twists facts to suit his shit.

The one game I played with Katsuki, his play

was exactly the same as here.

Lurked like fuck and let town get each other hung. He is not a subtle scumplayer.

My play was different because Saki antagonised me to the point of force-replacement. Katsuki doesn't mention this, because it suits his agenda to change facts to suit his agenda.

Katsuki saying his play in this game is different isn't really fact twisting IMO. But, it's on him to explain what is different, not just to call it different.

Also,

@Katsuki

what makes you feel that a huge kerfuffle between Saki and TSO in another game makes that game a good baseline for town TSO? I've played a few games with TSO, and this game looks pretty town. I haven't played a game with him as scum though. I've done a recent meta dive, and the two scum games I looked at were inconclusive. They were very different from each other, and both games had some commonalities with his town play. I may write this up in more detail later but probably not unless my read grows uncertain.

But he does more than just lurk until he's getting called out and then only appearing to defend himself in the worst way possible.

Damn straight.

This is a pretty good description of his play. :/

[fferyllt]

Rereading this, I'm seeing we made a disconnect re the bolded. "not really making any effort" meant that I didn't see you pursuing lines of questioning. Your reads refinement looks like it's based mostly on what's being left in the thread from other players' interactions. And your own prior paragraph actually reinforces that - observing rather than pushing.

I don't get a lot of data from watching people in observation mode, hence my deciding to interact.

Ah, I do. It's actually my preferred day one play. I much prefer to see how the arguments go and balance that out with what makes sense to me, and pushing what feels natural to me.

I had to learn how to be pushy and aggressive day one because it tended to get me a bit of flack until people got used to me and because sometimes noone pushes the game forward, so in that instance I do.

I didn't phrase that very well, but your reply makes sense.

What I was trying to say was that I don't get a lot of data by watching players who are in observation mode, themselves.

I go into observation mode at times, including day 1 but it's usually when the thread is moving along at a good clip, interesting things are happening and I don't want to jostle that with my own actions.

I wish this game were moving at a better clip.

[fferyllt]

10/10 would lynch katsuki over TSO

hue

you should see the game where I won as scum over TSO. His play there was completely different, as is mine here. Probably has to do with an alignment swap.

His push here is insincere at best, and pretty much BS.

Want to see another reason Katsuki is scum? He twists facts to suit his shit.

The one game I played with Katsuki, his play

was exactly the same as here.

Lurked like fuck and let town get each other hung. He is not a subtle scumplayer.

My play was different because Saki antagonised me to the point of force-replacement. Katsuki doesn't mention this, because it suits his agenda to change facts to suit his agenda.

Katsuki saying his play in this game is different isn't really fact twisting IMO. But, it's on him to explain what is different, not just to call it different.

Also,

@Katsuki

what makes you feel that a huge kerfuffle between Saki and TSO in another game makes that game a good baseline for town TSO? I've played a few games with TSO, and this game looks pretty town. I haven't played a game with him as scum though. I've done a recent meta dive, and the two scum games I looked at were inconclusive. They were very different from each other, and both games had some commonalities with his town play. I may write this up in more detail later but probably not unless my read grows uncertain.

The BS he's spewing this game is insincere, and if anything he's the one twisting stuff. Cephir's already said a lot on how my play does not match what TSO has been making my play out to be.

Ok.

Also, the fight between saki and TSO is irrelevant to anything and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up? (It's not what made him town, and not the difference between his play here and there that's alignment indicative )

I brought it up because he said that was the basis for your calling his play different in this game. What did made him town in that game?

@Cephir: The mindgamer post was more so, TSO had mentioned mindgamer before, then when the wagon happened, he decided to stick mindgamer in null and say "I'll read later" (when his iso consisted of maybe 5 posts at most). Line of thinking there was, if mindgamer is scum, TSO is conf scum based on numerous factors of his play.

What are your thougts about BBmolla?

[fferyllt]

I don't believe that Katsuki just called me confscum if MG is and you asked him what he fucking thought of BBMolla?

I'm working to get a better picture of Katsuki's thought process. His read of you is a piece of the puzzle.

Are you trying to figure out if I agree with that read?

[fferyllt]

Also, the fight between saki and TSO is irrelevant to anything and I'm not sure why you're bringing it up? (It's not what made him town, and not the difference between his play here and there that's alignment indicative )

I brought it up because he said that was the basis for your calling his play different in this game. What did made him town in that game?

Now you have him putting words in my mouth.

The biggest difference I would say is the degree of genuineness. You could see his townie intent that game. Aka, the motivation behind his posts there was townmotivated, where as here it drips scum intent.

@Cephir: The mindgamer post was more so, TSO had mentioned mindgamer before, then when the wagon happened, he decided to stick mindgamer in null and say "I'll read later" (when his iso consisted of maybe 5 posts at most). Line of thinking there was,

if mindgamer is scum,

TSO is conf scum based on numerous factors of his play.

What are your thougts about BBmolla?

I dunno he can be town for the hearthstone post.

It looked like you're considering the possibility he's scum.

[fferyllt]

?

?

The bit I bolded in your post that I quoted.

[fferyllt]

Tammy, Empire,

What are your thoughts about ABP?

I think he and pjovek are both competing for who's making my headache worse. I have no idea how to read people who play like that if I've never seen them play. (Well, I have seen pjovek play and I'm near ready to just string him up right now, but that could be my headache talking.)

I was hoping you'd played with him before.

His assertion that I"m town is somewhat boggling given our game experience together. Especially when some people who actually have experience with my game are misreading me this time. I've ISO'd a few of his games of both alignments, and I'm finding it difficult to pull out stuff that looks both alignment-relevant and comparable to this game.

[fferyllt]

For fucks sake that took you long enough.

UNVOTE:

This would be a lot more town to me if you had been more proactive about sorting me. And hadn't been asked by Tammy before unvoting.

[fferyllt]

For fucks sake that took you long enough.

UNVOTE:

This would be a lot more town to me if you had been more proactive about sorting me. And hadn't been asked by Tammy before unvoting.

I wanted to see the righteousness that comes with town-you that's going to be lynched. It took you forever; you spent half your time telling me how much I'd regret voting for you, which spun the town-o-meter a billion miles the other direction.

This doesn't address my concerns at all.

[fferyllt]

The post was made three days ago. You pop up after Tammy references it and after Ceph unvotes.

[fferyllt]

Tammy, Empire,

What are your thoughts about ABP?

I think he and pjovek are both competing for who's making my headache worse. I have no idea how to read people who play like that if I've never seen them play. (Well, I have seen pjovek play and I'm near ready to just string him up right now, but that could be my headache talking.)

I was hoping you'd played with him before.

His assertion that I"m town is somewhat boggling given our game experience together. Especially when some people who actually have experience with my game are misreading me this time. I've ISO'd a few of his games of both alignments, and I'm finding it difficult to pull out stuff that looks both alignment-relevant and comparable to this game.

What is your experience together?

No completed games.

[fferyllt]

?

?

The bit I bolded in your post that I quoted.

It's not like I voted mindgamer because I thought he was town.

You think BMolla is town but you're drawing potential associations with the slot based on it flipping scum.

[fferyllt]

Cause I definitely recall something different.

Go back and read the first few posts in my iso. And the town meta you are thinking of. I can link you to scum games where I've done that too. Actually, tbh, I usually lurk more in scum games, I get scared to post because I don't want to incriminate myself.

If I'm being honest this seemed kinda town

Not enough to unvote but I thought I'd mention it

If you did decide to unvote him, where would you move your vote?

[fferyllt]

ABR is pretty much a complete cipher to me. :/

Empire bothers me, but his game is so low key so far there's not a lot to point to and say "this isn't town". Like I said, I feel like he's in consultant mode. Nothing much proactive in his play.

[fferyllt]

That was the intention, yes.

I don't.

[fferyllt]

That was the intention, yes.

I don't.

Do you agree with my read on him?

No. I p much disagree, but my Katsuki-town model is pretty sketchy and the scum model is nonexistant.

I want to review some of Katsuki's scum games in the next day or two. The two games we've played, we were both town. And the one where we were both in the game to the bitter end, we didn't read each other very well.

[fferyllt]

Since it was asked, ABR is still scum; I'm townreading BBmolla lightly since he replaced in.

I feel like ABR's being opaque and not putting much down in the game thread to evaluate. I'd prefer his lynch to espeonage's.

Empire's level of involvement seems like it's way less than what he'd probably force himself to do if he's scum. But, I have one completed game with scum-him from which to draw that inference.

I kinda want to write his lack of presence off to real life stuff and start fresh with whoever replaces him.

[fferyllt]

Cabd are you ever gong to actually play this game?

[fferyllt]

Nah. Not until I get my bearings. I thought I had nailed scum you but I am vastly disappointed at those odds as of now.

You need to find your bearings, then.

This game has been hell for getting a toehold.

Talk reads? Anything?

[fferyllt]

I thought you had an appointment with a shot glass tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

Ok

cabd - scumfuck, role pm matters not
empire - null/scum
chamber - probtown
tammy - probtown
fferyllt - half of morph what do you expect?
bbmolla - null
TSO - town
Llamarble - I dunno maybe? want to say null because based on reputation I would have expected him to have the game solved by now.
projectmatt - where did he go? null at best.
pjovek - probtown
EspeciallyTheLies - null/town?
Katsuki - town
Albert B. Rampage - null/scum
espeonage - probtown

[fferyllt]

where did ceph go? I must have deleted his line. he's probtown.

[fferyllt]

Is your read on ABR related to boat game?

Maybe a little. He hardly posted, but I got a sense of presence in that game. Much more than this one.

[fferyllt]

And your empire svumread also stems from meta/BoP?

Sort of. I don't want to lynch that slot without some evaluation of its next occupant. I think that even as much as Empire hates being scum there's a certain standard he'd hold himself to, and his participation in this game doesn't hit that standard.

[fferyllt]

So what's your real read on me, morphie?

I want to say town.

[fferyllt]

Because you're being intransigently useless. You don't do that as scum.

[fferyllt]

I wasn't aware he did it as town, either, but it annoys me all the same.

I know. And most players are more likely to break the mold when they draw town. Cabd, I wouldn't make that assumption. hence "want to think".

[fferyllt]

NOPE.

Unvote, vote BBmolla

Nope to what?

[fferyllt]

How about that reads discussion?

[fferyllt]

cabd - scumfuck, role pm matters not

You clarified you townread me, so hey, 1 right so far!

Your read comes with a 200pt font footnote.

empire (now nati) - null/scum

I didn't see any parallells to Boatgame, personally. You'll have to walk me through those some more. That said, nati should be able to give us a good show either way.

I can't call him town based on what's in the game. And I feel like I should be able to, even with my smidge of experiential meta. Will probably pretend he never posted and see what Nati puts down in the thread.

chamber - probtown

I think you're underestimating Chamber here, but I will admit I find him naturally scummy; he felt like scum in Macbeth up until trollie flipped him as town in endgame.

I'm not getting a scum sense. More of a curmudgeony town than anything.

tammy - probtown

I would ask you if you're under-estimating tammy's scumgame; but after rereading parts of Chosen this morning, I concur.

Did you focus on the exchange that tammy and I had in that game? I did.

fferyllt - half of morph what do you expect?

I expect you to

die

dance.

meh

bbmolla - null

You know, his play this game calls me back to my very first game here, where he was town that got mislynched. (The one with sex jokes and then nacho replacing into obvscum slot)

The only completed game I have with him is Rach's Half Baked Curse mini. He lurked the hell out of that game before he was lynched at...MYLO? There was no personality at all in his posts. Reminded me of Empking's style of minimalism.

TSO - town

Well... I don't know on this one. I'm not nearly as strongly townreading TSO as you seem to be.

I admittedly don't have any experiential meta with scum-TSO. I did a recent meta dive in for another game. My sense from that was that scum-TSO doesn't put as much reasoning into his posts. His tunneling Katsuki reminds me of the way he tunneled you in 1436.

Llamarble - I dunno maybe? want to say null because based on reputation I would have expected him to have the game solved by now.

BoP ruins reads. Here you go using that "want" filler again.

It's a very weak read. This is my first game with llamarble.

projectmatt - where did he go? null at best.

I'm leaning scum here, compare chosen vs wingate.

Yeah he reminds me of Chosen.

Tammy? thoughts?

pjovek - probtown

Annoying as fuck, but agreed on probably town.

As you can imagine, this was not a quick decision.

EspeciallyTheLies - null/town?

I'll be totally reading her from her drunk posts, I can tell the scumdrunk and towndrunk apart. (For drunkscum, see Antihero mafia and sabotage mafia)

What's your read, then?

Katsuki - town

See TSO read response, mix in some of what I said about chamber and naturally scummy read.

Welp. If they're both scum then this is some damn silly scum theater.

Albert B. Rampage - null/scum

Your vote is here, so this is your strongest scumread despite it being nullscum?

I don't have a vote down. The fact that he's doing absolutely nothing to dispel his wagon doesn't feel like scum tactics somehow.

espeonage - probtown

Do you think is wagon is icky, or that it's town getting wagoned for the wrong reasons? What did you make of the tammy-espionage hairball?

I just think he's probably town. His stances are kinda dumb in places, but they come off town to me. He voted me instead of ABR at a point where voting ABR would have taken him out of the lynch lead iirc.

Cephrir-Town

Concur for now, but I never underestimate cephrir's ability to switch heads to townceph when his role PM is scumrir's.

Maybe. Still think he's town.

[fferyllt]

p sure 1 of cabd/ffery is scum trying to pull a fast one on the other

The thought has occurred.

[fferyllt]

How about that reads discussion?

I'll reads discussion with you!

Well?

[fferyllt]

Nati have you played with Espeonage before?

[fferyllt]

No.

I was leaning scum on him at first. Curious to see if you keep that read intact as you catch up.

[fferyllt]

okay i see why espeon's wagon dismantled.

fferylit, I need you to answer me on why you're being so defensive here.

Why I am being? Or why I was being? Because, I don't really feel defensive at this point.

The game pace was slow and the actual content by several players has been pretty low throughout. I had trouble getting stuck into the game.

[fferyllt]

Bad coimparison given that moid error had us confirmed to each other by like my third post.

Disagree, ffery didn't see it that way.

Actually I did see it that way, I just couldn't be too obvious about it at the time because about a third of the player list was also playing Newbie 1436, where scum-me was in the middle of a fake paranoid meltdown about Cabd.

I was also trying not to break feirei's game any worse than it was already broken. :/

Why I am being? Or why I was being? Because, I don't really feel defensive at this point.

The game pace was slow and the actual content by several players has been pretty low throughout. I had trouble getting stuck into the game.

Overall your posts have this guarded feel to them that I don't really ever get from you, although, yes it has lessened some in the past ~6 pages or so.[/quote]

If you want examples, I can give you links to a couple games where I had similar difficulty getting grounded. But...self-meta.

[fferyllt]

We're in agreement that ABR is lynchbait though.

No. ABR is scum. He's about the only one here, besides Espeonage, I'm practically certain of. When pjo was catching heat, he slipped onto that wagon. When it died and people were pressuring mindgamer (now BBmolla), he did the same thing. When that got replaced and the Espeonage wagon was growing, there he is again. And I can almost guarantee that wagon is scum driven. The first two didn't need to be. This one is. If I'm wrong about Esp, I will stfu for the rest of the game. But I'm like 99% Esp is town.

I'm saying that Espeonage didn't jump at the chance to lynch pjo or mindgamer when the wagon was gathering steam.

Like ABR did.

p-edit: no, ceph. nat just misunderstood me.

Did you see my point to Cabd that it seems like really poor scum tactics for ABR to make no real effort to address/dispel his wagon? Doesn't make for good town tactics either. I don't know what to make of it.

[fferyllt]

Did you see my point to Cabd that it seems like really poor scum tactics for ABR to make no real effort to address/dispel his wagon? Doesn't make for good town tactics either. I don't know what to make of it.

I've seen him as town. He screams a lot more about his own lynch.

The only other game I've played with him, he replaced into a slot that was the leading wagon with about a day left to deadline. He didn't do much to move that wagon, but there wasn't much time. he definitely didn't yell about it. I doubt that game has any relevance to what's going on here, though.

Can you suggest a game to read? Maybe my choices for meta-reading weren't so great.

[fferyllt]

Hey

fferyllt,

how is my play reminding you of Chosen Mafia?

It reminds me of your play in that game mostly in terms of what Nati calls tempo.

You go quiet for periods, and you tend to pop up within a few hours of when your name is mentioned, which makes me think you're probably following the game daily or something close to that.

There's also the quick, short posts with infrequent longer posts interspersed, which also looks a lot like your Chosen ISO And most of your interactions seem to be prompted - sort of like this one, where I mention you, and then within a couple of hours here you are looking all proactive and stuff.

[fferyllt]

Fair enough. Although I would argue my play on Viscon was essentially the same - the only difference being that I had a lot to do at the beginning as I was replacing in. I am following the game, actually. But the days where I have time to actually read the game and post analysis of it at the same time are scarce. The interaction is prompted.

You agreed with another play about something and I wanted to see whether or not you had actually read the game or you were just making it up at the top of your head.

I'm still planning on making a full post of reads with actual detail but for now you'll have to deal with infrequent content.

Ah. I was in that game. I was part of the Sound of Silence hydra.

[fferyllt]

Oh yeah Nati is towntowntown.

Please help me lynch ABR and TSO, they're scum. TSO especially (you modded dota so you know how his play there and here differ in addition to his consistant BS of trying to link my play there to here despite it being vastly different).

He seems to be doing the same? He has a tendency toward flamey deathtunnels. You know what I'm seeing here? A flamey deathtunnel. I think you're both mispurposed in this fight.

If one of them flip scum I'll rethink this, but your efforts to stamp out this brushfire with both participants looks town. As scum, you'd have no motivation to decrease the amount of town-generated smoke and heat in the game.

[fferyllt]

I don't, no. I'm on my phone ATM; but ill say that the reads list is what I'd expect as either alignment, it's how she hammers them out with me that makes it a read on her one way or the other.

I'm wondering why you're leaving gigantic clues for next game lying around in this thread.

[fferyllt]

empire (now nati) - null/scum

I didn't see any parallells to Boatgame, personally. You'll have to walk me through those some more. That said, nati should be able to give us a good show either way.

I can't call him town based on what's in the game. And I feel like I should be able to, even with my smidge of experiential meta. Will probably pretend he never posted and see what Nati puts down in the thread.

I'm about here with that slot. I hate that I didn't get to interact with empire as that's how we sort each other out. I will note that I would feel much better about that slot if when he replaced out he said "good luck town" instead of "guys". It reminds me of when you were lynched in Chef mafia but I can't really get a feel on that without seeing how he responds to me.

This is a very idiosyncratic tell. I didn't point it out in chef mafia because I was closing up shop at that point, but I've been FoSed for saying "good luck town" because it implies a separation, like I'm not part of "town". In that instance, I was town, but I took the FoS to heart anyway.

This is very much in the eye of the beholder, and also is probably something you need meta for to be sure. i.e., how does Empire usually phrase a replace-out post? Does it vary based on alignment?

bbmolla - null

You know, his play this game calls me back to my very first game here, where he was town that got mislynched. (The one with sex jokes and then nacho replacing into obvscum slot)

The only completed game I have with him is Rach's Half Baked Curse mini. He lurked the hell out of that game before he was lynched at...MYLO? There was no personality at all in his posts. Reminded me of Empking's style of minimalism.

Go back and read that game and read his iso here. BB started off all right there, but it's pretty different to here. I have a few markers that I think work pretty well with reading BB, and him saying that he's only 80% sure of his town read of me and thinking that people were silly for town reading Chamber as well as his push on espeonage then flip to chamber then flip to ABR reads like town him not scum him.

I think he's displayed a ton more personality in this game than he did in that game, which is why he isn't in my scumpile. His stances were pretty cautious in that game too, iirc. I'm not seeing that here.

Llamarble - I dunno maybe? want to say null because based on reputation I would have expected him to have the game solved by now.

BoP ruins reads. Here you go using that "want" filler again.

It's a very weak read. This is my first game with llamarble.

I have a way I read marble, and the way I read him goes. Is he being adorable and a little arrogant? If he is, he's probably town. Also, he's probably just as obnoxious as I am about being obvtown when he feels like he's towned really hard. I'd have to re-read through his scum games, but that's missing. So, his statements like "my iq will only be this high once in november," "I'm pulling out the obvtown card and vetoing this lynch," etc reads town. Oh as does his early scum read on empire when he was like you can claim scum and kill me tonight or whatever.

I'm quite willing to take your read under advisement.

projectmatt - where did he go? null at best.

I'm leaning scum here, compare chosen vs wingate.

Yeah he reminds me of Chosen.

Tammy? thoughts?

I'm still predisposed to town read Matt after my hammer in wingate. But, other than rate of participation, which is actually similar to Wingate then no. But, here's where I feel good about Matt:

Empire, I am interested in hearing your other townreads but more specifically I am interested in knowing who you have scumreads on apart from Espeonage. Get to that.

The only way I see Matt scum in this situation is if he's scum with empire. I just don't see him scum with a town empire interacting that way. I just don't. I'd have to go back and look at our qt in Chosen, but I'm pretty sure I remember one of the first things we said to each other was how bad our scum games were, so this denotes a level of confidence I don't see a scum him displaying to a town empire. They've been playing together for a while. If I'm not mistaken, they played together quite regularly together at EpicMafia, so I think he would be a little bit more nervous.

I actually liked that last substantive projectmatt post about espeonage.

[fferyllt]

I don't, no. I'm on my phone ATM; but ill say that the reads list is what I'd expect as either alignment, it's how she hammers them out with me that makes it a read on her one way or the other.

I'm wondering why you're leaving gigantic clues for next game lying around in this thread.

Since when have I ever cared about what the next game brings during my play in a game?

How would I

know

if you ever cared? I'm not sure you caught my point with that post, which might even be fine by me.

[fferyllt]

I don't, no. I'm on my phone ATM; but ill say that the reads list is what I'd expect as either alignment, it's how she hammers them out with me that makes it a read on her one way or the other.

I'm wondering why you're leaving gigantic clues for next game lying around in this thread.

I don't get this comment.

I should be able to reverse engineer what he's looking for in our reads discussion from this game if I don't already have it figured out. And that makes this test much less effective in future games. Possibly totally ineffective.

[fferyllt]

o hai

[fferyllt]

I probably will some day. I like this one right now.

[fferyllt]

SHutup ffery you don't count. Oh but you thinking you can reverse engineer what i'm looking for when i have no fucking clue what i'm looking for was funny!

How are you going to know when you find it then?

[fferyllt]

sure you do.

[fferyllt]

I believe you.

[fferyllt]

Are you sober, Lady Ffery? Or am I alone?

I am not sober. you can't tell because my spellechecker is god tier.

[fferyllt]

you should get a better spellchecker.

[fferyllt]

I don't need a better town checker.

[fferyllt]

;.; I'm at work.

Sincere condolences. Very sincere condolences.

[fferyllt]

what did you learn?

[fferyllt]

hosts?

[fferyllt]

Spoiler: ~reasons~

T S O

, why do you scumread me?

Albert's play is shamefully lazy but I'm not exactly letting go of my read on Espeonage here. The thing about Espeonage is that none of the meta that I have on him adds up at all. While comparing his early town play to this one, I saw that when Espeonage is town he tends to be genuinely excited and aggressive. His overall play this game comes off not only as lazy - but as really nervous. It feels like to me that Espeonage isn't actually scumhunting but looking for reasons to accuse people. That might sound like a silly sentence but there's a huge difference between the two.

For example, his method of scumhunting in http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=22308 is really hyper and erratic. His conclusions of the mafia aren't based on on big analysis but rather through repeated questioning and pressuring. None of that is here.

After reading that ISO, read all of these posts

It comes off to me like he's willing to give up too easily and isn't actually invested in the game short of coasting long enough to get a lynch. I can understand he hasn't played in a year and a half - but it doesn't change the fact that his game is extremely, extremely sloppy and uncomfortable. That is why my vote will at the moment remain on Espeonage.

projectmatt - where did he go? null at best.

I'm leaning scum here, compare chosen vs wingate.

Yeah he reminds me of Chosen.

Tammy? thoughts?

I'm still predisposed to town read Matt after my hammer in wingate. But, other than rate of participation, which is actually similar to Wingate then no. But, here's where I feel good about Matt:

Empire, I am interested in hearing your other townreads but more specifically I am interested in knowing who you have scumreads on apart from Espeonage. Get to that.

The only way I see Matt scum in this situation is if he's scum with empire. I just don't see him scum with a town empire interacting that way. I just don't. I'd have to go back and look at our qt in Chosen, but I'm pretty sure I remember one of the first things we said to each other was how bad our scum games were, so this denotes a level of confidence I don't see a scum him displaying to a town empire. They've been playing together for a while. If I'm not mistaken, they played together quite regularly together at EpicMafia, so I think he would be a little bit more nervous.

cabd - scumfuck, role pm matters not
empire - null/scum
chamber - probtown
tammy - probtown
fferyllt - half of morph what do you expect?
bbmolla - null
TSO - town
Llamarble - I dunno maybe? want to say null because based on reputation I would have expected him to have the game solved by now.
projectmatt - where did he go? null at best.
pjovek - probtown
EspeciallyTheLies - null/town?
Katsuki - town
Albert B. Rampage - null/scum
espeonage - probtown

I already have you as town, but if I didn't, I'd think you were town now from something in your post. Bonus points if someone can tell me why.

BB is looks town here. Like, I haven't felt this good about BB since our pop princess game, we wont' talk about my paranoia on him like day five but that's just par for the course for me :/

I still think that espeonage is scum, and I feel better about matt and marble than you do.

I know this was here for cabd, but

Based on the above, I almost did this last night but wanted to review it in the cold light of day.

- projectmatt's ISO of another espeonage game and the selected posts from this game he contrasts to that ISO are pretty compelling

- Tammy thinks projectmatt is town

- Tammy thinks espeonage is scum.

VOTE: espeonage

[fferyllt]

what don't you follow?

[fferyllt]

projectmatt's meta case is compelling on its own. I'm townreading Tammy, so her reads carry some weight for me. She was scum with Matt in the Chosen game that I referenced as meta suggesting Matt's game is similar here. Even so, she thinks he's town and she should have a better insight into that game than I do because they were partners. espeonage is also her strongest scum read iirc.

Having a solid meta case on espeonage to back up what's in the game thread and tammy's read makes me feel pretty good about putting my vote there.

[fferyllt]

Wow. You bringing that up got me to actually look at the game in question, and, holy shit. He's way more emotional and tonally... open? transparent? in that game. The difference is pretty shocking, and I suck at meta.

I wish I had two votes.

His play in that game is fluid and reactive to the changing game state.

If you had two votes why would you divide them?

[fferyllt]

Unvote, vote Espeonage

Will you fucking explain your vote changes?

[fferyllt]

Albert is playing like a Jester.

Is that a serious speculation?

[fferyllt]

Cabd, as someone that is reading Tammy as really scummy, I find your faith in her seriously disturbing. You and ffery will bring some really cool stuff I feel, I don't think there's enough day to do that today though.

There's almost a week still on the clock.

[fferyllt]

Cabd, as someone that is reading Tammy as really scummy, I find your faith in her seriously disturbing. You and ffery will bring some really cool stuff I feel, I don't think there's enough day to do that today though.

There's almost a week still on the clock.

???

myko added some days to Day 1 because of Nati's replace-in.

What are you talking about re Cabd and me that can't be aired out in that length of time?

[fferyllt]

Albert is playing like a Jester.

Is that a serious speculation?

Mostly no. I'm not gonna lie though, I went back into the queue and looked to see whether there could possibly be a jester. If you look at the exact wording of the question asked in the large theme queue, there is actually room for Jesters to slip through it.

I did the same a couple days ago. To me, jester seems outside the spirit of that disclaimer if not the letter.

[fferyllt]

I appear to have missed that ffery.

Eh I guess we can deal with it today. I'd rather lynch Tammy that go after cabd. And your wagon dissolved.

You sound like you think it's more likely I'm the scum of the pair of us, so I fail to see why you'd put Cabd even in the hypothetical alternate spot to Tammy.

[fferyllt]

Also TSO and Katsuki is like the new ffery and Cabd,

but I'm not as sure if it's scum/town as I am with ffery

, it seems more tunneling, which I'll live with at this point as

they seem less cryptic and decietful than Cabd and ffery

.

I'm seeing my name here in proximity to "scum" and both our names in proximity to "deceitful".

I realize you'e expressed greater concerns about Cabd over his drunkposting+gambit. I don't get any sense that your read of me has changed.

And your attack here on Tammy/Cabd has a sideways innuendo feel to it that's in contrast to your direct FoSes and questions in the game that projectmatt dug up.

[fferyllt]

You didn't say "FoS this" or somesuch that I recall from reading your ISo. Accusations and expressed suspicions.

[fferyllt]

ETL, you were going to point me at a game where he yelled about being wagoned as town.

[fferyllt]

Oh yeah. I forgot. I'm lazy. I don't like meta diving the way you do. The one I witnessed is still on. I saw others in his topics. I'm at work so not ISOing or opening multiple thread tabs at the moment. You can always look, but honestly it's not even part of my case on him here. If I remember when I get home, I'll post it for you.

I realize it's not part of your case. The problem I'm having is that he's has been flagrantly blantant about what he's doing - wagon-hopping. From what I've seen in my own meta dives it's not much like other recent scum games. And it doesn't fit what I've read about his tactics as scum in recent mafia discusion threads.

I have trouble seeing how it's pro-scum to play this way.

[fferyllt]

You have to ask the other questions too, ffery. Is it pro-town? Does this match his town meta?

None of it does. So the only evidence I have are his votes. Saying he's vote-hopping, well I mean really. I've flat out claimed scum as scum and won before. Words are distractions a lot of the time.

wincon + role + personal goals and objectives --> motivation --> in-thread behavior.

I'm in the process of reverse-engineering this. The most obvious paths backwards don't lead me to think there's a scum role pm on the left hand side of the algorithm.

[fferyllt]

What did you think of espeonage's posts on his last visit to the game thread?

[fferyllt]

Lol, I have a 100% win rate as Jester on day 1.

I'm back, I've been following through my VLA when peeps have been doing stuff but I'm going to go back through and post my thoughts. I did see the meta argument, and I can't really compete against that conclusion, this is different to how I played that game, then again that's only one game. I don't believe I'm that clear cut but ok.

Cabd, as someone that is reading Tammy as really scummy, I find your faith in her seriously disturbing.

You and ffery will bring some really cool stuff I feel,

I don't think there's enough day to do that today though.

But yeah, Imma go read back.

This post bothered me mostly because of the bolded. He still hasn't clarified the bolded, at least not well enough for me to get what he's driving at. There's something about Cabd's and my interactions in this game that bugs him, but hellifino precisely what.

And I think people are bandwagoning a read on Pjovek as Town - he spammed and now he's lurking and I hate that because it's unnatural.

I was reading an old game of mine a couple of weeks ago where a VI I really liked playing with was mafia and he played the game like a harp and only really got killed because PoE for Cult Recruiter. And frankly, I'm terrible at reading VIs I've realised. I think it's a psychological thing because I used to think I was a terrible player (I was).

But yeah this post rings of truth, and it'd be pretty cool if we come back to this tomorrow or I guess today is chamber wants to get off his bum.

Suggestion that pjovik is a VI, but yeah we should revisit a pjo lynch tomorrow.

Also, in addition to the first post I made.

Cabd's gambits. I'm not sure how they usually go down, but everything here seems really half arsed. A curve ball is a curve ball but the drunkposting seems really really terrible as a gambit. I'm all for getting drunk and posting because it changes your perception of posts. That's fine, it's why I always used to pull an all nighter for Marathon days because I play better when tired. But that was just poor form last night.

Gripes about Cabd's gambits.

Also TSO and Katsuki is like the new ffery and Cabd, but I'm not as sure if it's scum/town as I am with ffery, it seems more tunneling, which I'll live with at this point as they seem less cryptic and decietful than Cabd and ffery.

PEDIT: K, I'll go squizz it later.

Back to one of Cabd, me being scum.

@Cabd: Two things.
1. Can't find the gambits list.
2. I've got a gambit for you. Saying your game revolves around meta, then saying you pride your scum game to make people think that you have distinctive factors that make up your good scum play only to not do any of it as scum because don't want to be meta read correctly.

A sort of "fuck meta, you can manipulate that" attack on Cabd. Which is true to an extent.

Conversely, I don't feel Tammy and Cabd would be scum together, it doesn't add up with Tammy's response to the whole meta thing from ages ago.

But, he's kinda deriding his own build up of scum-Cabd here.

I appear to have missed that ffery.

Eh I guess we can deal with it today. I'd rather lynch Tammy that go after cabd. And your wagon dissolved.

It was about here that his posts started to focus on my engagement efforts.

He'd rather lynch Tammy. He thinks Tammy is more likely scum despite a whole series of posts following a scum-Cabd line of argument.

What was missing from all those posts (and the ones that came after) was any effort at all to convince other players that Tammy is scum. He subtly pushed other players as scummy while holding his vote static, without any more push on his target.

[fferyllt]

Griping about cabd's gambits? I do not like gambits either. Do you? Especially town gambits. (See: Wake88)

I generally don't gambit, except in a few instances where I try not to fuck it up when a hydra partner decides to gambit. Or where my role-pm/wincon actually requires gambiting (see Achievement Unlocked Micro).

In the games I've played, Cabd's gambits as town have been as game-winning as his scum-gambits. I've come around to an opinion that gambits aren't always of the devil.

[fferyllt]

Ffery, no offense, but you really like to zero in on stuff that paints an obscure picture that is hard to follow. You bang hard on that little shit, that to me, really doesn't mean anything. That's what I feel about the first quote. I feel it is a nothing issue.

Tone, timing and behavioral patterns are what I key in on, often as not. espeonage pinged early and then started to look more generically town. But, the example of his town play in an earlier game is something quite different from what I'm seeing here. And his posts yesterday, which came as his wagon started to pick up steam again, have a spaghetti-thrown-at-wall feel. They're full of vague accusations and innuendo, which is such a contrast to the game that projectmatt linked.

There, he addressed suspects directly and asked them questions, made observations to them.

Here, he's to a large extent picking up posts by other players to agree with and to add a little non-specific weight to. He's talking about the people he's accusing, not to them.

Go back through the posts I linked and see how many questions he asked, and how many direct accusations he's made.

[fferyllt]

As for the specific content, talking about the people he's accusing instead of to them is actually way smarter of you want to lynch somebody.

You're never going to convince somebody that they're scum, you can convince other people that the accusee is scum.
Sounds easy right? Well it is.

I would normally do it too but it's funner to argue with people.

Unless you're scum, the point isn't just to convince other people the accusee is scum. The larger point is to determine if you're right about the person. In general, talking

to

trumps talking

about

when I'm trying to discern a person's alignment.

ymmv.

[fferyllt]

I'm not quite sure how you missed Tammy and I having a pretty intense discussion on our mutual scumreads of each other.

That was pages ago. Have you given up?

As for not knowing what I'm on about with you and Cabd, I've already been quite clear that I feel there is a scum in the two of you because the interactions show signs of a scumperson keeping a townperson engaged with them alone at the expense of being able to concentrate on the game at large.

There could be some of that going on. From this side of the interaction, though, I find that scum-Cabd wants me to townread him. He hasn't made a habit of antagonizing me. The same can't be said about scum-me and town-him, but I'm very unlikely to play that card again anytime soon.

I don't particularly like gambits too much, outside of fakeclaims, everything else I feel is just asking for a town to fall in and get mislynched as a result. But as I also said, I don't have experience with the type gambits the players in this game use.

Here's one of his recent gambit lists.

Generic "here's why ffery is paranoid of me" post go!


An abridged history of "Gambits and Shit Cabd has Pulled in Mafia"

Chapter One: As Town
-Fakeclaim psychologist in RVS to get the SK to claim
-Fake a cop innocent on a townread
-Fakeclaim nuetral survivor in 3-man lylo with the other two crossed
-Faked having a QT with a dead player
-Faked a posting restriction to fly under the radar
-Faked a cop guilty on a huge scumread (they flipped scum)

Chapter Two: As Scum
-Claimed scum to get a daykill
-Faked hours of metadiving
-Coasted on a hider claim to a perfect win (TWICE)
-Used dead people to leverage my case against another player
-Watcher-guiltied my own teammate in MYLO to go on to win
-Pointed out my partner's scumslip on page one of a newbie
-Faked a towntell

[fferyllt]

Ffery people talk to her like shes scum

This may be the laziest looking non-read I've ever collected in a mafia game.

[fferyllt]

Unvote

[fferyllt]

Nati, you think llama-espi-??? team?

Yeah that was a classic "setup your scum partner for slightly off the border claim".

This is a pretty bad line to take without the hindsight of flips.

@ABR, interested in your read on me seeing as you offered. I don't think you're scum and avoiding my lynch would be nice, so I feel working together on this would be helpful, no?

What leads you to think he isn't scum?

[fferyllt]

I like Nati's lean-scum on me. After his "meta" town reads in our last few games where he was scum, it's a nice change. However, it doesn't escape my notice that he'd pretty much have to change that tune after kinda over-using it.

[fferyllt]

Vote: Cephrir

The confidence and unconcern doesn't feel like town cephrir.

[fferyllt]

Vote: Cephrir

The confidence and unconcern doesn't feel like town cephrir.

I'm unconcerned? o.o

Your willing to lynch in no particular order list comprises over a third of the player list.

[fferyllt]

Deadline is approaching, so it has null reads in it. Sheesh, I thought your complaint would be better than that. The only scumreads I feel any good about at all are ABR and Espeon, though admittedly with my track record that means roughly nothing.

It contains several players who are unlikely to be flashwagoned even though they are null/scum reads for some. Your list fails to take the game state into account. If you had some conviction - if you were scum reading some who are unlikely to be lynched today - I don't think it would concern me to this degree. But, you've interacted significantly with two on your list and gave no indication you'd consider lynching them until they showed up in that list.

[fferyllt]

Also, no preference between your scum reads and your null reads.

It feels really off to me.

[fferyllt]

Deadline is approaching, so it has null reads in it. Sheesh, I thought your complaint would be better than that. The only scumreads I feel any good about at all are ABR and Espeon, though admittedly with my track record that means roughly nothing.

It contains several players who are unlikely to be flashwagoned even though they are null/scum reads for some. Your list fails to take the game state into account. If you had some conviction - if you were scum reading some who are unlikely to be lynched today - I don't think it would concern me to this degree. But, you've interacted significantly with two on your list and gave no indication you'd consider lynching them until they showed up in that list.

You just said I had too much conviction, now I don't have enough? XD

Also, no preference between your scum reads and your null reads.

It feels really off to me.

(but why?) = null read, so that's preference. Just saying if a flashwagon pops up those are the ones I'd consider supporitng.

Whatever. Your face feels off to me so I guess I don't care that much that you're getting me wrong.

I said self-assurance, not conviction. Town-cephrir's mix of certainties are different - you tend to make more noise about your disagreements with the consensus, not about your willingness to compromise.

The two I meant are TSO and katsuki.

[fferyllt]

So did ABR really just flip stances on his counterwagon yet again with no real explanation?

No comment at all on my concerns about Ceph?

[fferyllt]

So did ABR really just flip stances on his counterwagon yet again with no real explanation?

No comment at all on my concerns about Ceph?

I disagree? I've yet to see any major scumceph posts from where I sit, but you're welcome to try to sell me otherwise.

I'm not interested in selling it to you. I wanted your own opinion.

[fferyllt]

I prefer Nat over ABR. A wagon can be assembled in 5 hours.
Hey cabd how about voting something?

No thanks. How about you tell me why I should sheep you instead of hammering ABR.

If your conclusion is that ABR needs rope, I'll vote him. I don't know what to make of him any more. He's indicated willingness to dig into the game and produce some useful content, but it never happened. It feels like he's just lurking the wagon off.

espeonage is not much better despite the claim. Maybe it does come down to inability to argue a case, though.

[fferyllt]

BBmolla
FFery
CEphrir
CAbd

Lets do one of these.

UNVOTE

You advocating that lynch makes me think, not so much.

I'm really not sure what to make of your play.

[fferyllt]

BBmolla
FFery
CEphrir
CAbd

Lets do one of these.

UNVOTE

You advocating that lynch makes me think, not so much.

I'm really not sure what to make of your play.

Why would you unvote your scum read just because I presented them as a lynch I like? Even if we assume for a moment that you think I'm scum (something I'm not sure you've presented previous to now), there are still 2 huge issues with you unvoting. Firstly presumably your scm read on Cephrir is stronger than your scum read on me or you would have been voting for me over him in the first place. Secondly, in the world where I'm scum you don't think I'd put a scum member in that list of 4 names?

My play is pretty easy to interpret this game. IMO pjo should have been site banned for his activity in this game, or at least force-replaced/modkilled. He killed any motivation I had for it when I signed up, but with the number of other players replacing out I felt the need not to. I've thus struggled with holding any amount of attachment to the game, but have at times invested some amount of time to drop in and make surface thoughts know, because I certainly haven't developed anything deeper than that. MYSTERY UNRAVELED.

I telegraphed my intent and willingness to do something more useful with my vote than essentially megafos Ceph for tomorrow in post 1360.

It's a strange thing. I'm in a game with some players I've heard great things about, and with other players that I enjoy playing with for the most part. The players I expected to be wowed by (you are one of them) have left me decidedly unwowed. And though I dragged myself out of the Sargasso Sea of apathy eventually, this game has given me very little to sink my teeth into. I can relate to the general apathy on display by players who have come under fire, whether the apathy was a preexisting condition or a result.

Maybe it's the time of year.

[fferyllt]

VOTE: Guyett

You seriously think Tammy was scum?

[fferyllt]

I telegraphed my intent and willingness to do something more useful with my vote than essentially megafos Ceph for tomorrow in post 1360.

Just unvoting is more useful? That explains very little.

It sends a message about my opinion of your list in general. Cabd is probably town. You're misreading me. I'm leaning town on BBmolla. ABR I will probably wind up voting for given the current lay of the land, but it will not be a happy vote. If he flips scum it will be a relief, not an expectation.

[fferyllt]

Reads.

[fferyllt]

As in my full results. Because I thought it was better so I could confirm claims later.

You should claim.

There must have been lots of activity last night then.

Why make a lame comment about it? Having trouble thinking of something to say?

VOTE: Guyett

[fferyllt]

So did ABR really just flip stances on his counterwagon yet again with no real explanation?

No comment at all on my concerns about Ceph?

I disagree? I've yet to see any major scumceph posts from where I sit, but you're welcome to try to sell me otherwise.

[fferyllt]

Oh boy. So many tasty targets.

Name names.

[fferyllt]

I keep flipflopping on you vs cabd scum

Can't help you with that.

[fferyllt]

These two posts, which were on the same page, make me cautious about assuming Tammy was scum with Ceph.

Yeah but normally I'm paranoid for a while and then I stop being paranoid, correctly so. This game I just think you're scum. Relatedly, I have not seen you be scum.

I can't ignore this correlation.

That's too bad for both of us if you're town.

Though, I'm in the middle of kinda fun state of mind with regard to this game. I see myself as approaching confirmed town status and my reads are going to be golden if that happens. So I should keep working on those reads.

Okay the ffery wagon is officially stupid.

Cabd? You're still scum reading ffery?

^^ She was wrong about why that post sounds like town-me, but not too far wrong.

But her comment did lead to the immediate dismantling of my wagon, even though she was commenting on something I had posted 2-3 days earlier. It still bothers me a little that Cabd didn't unvote or comment about the post until after Tammy did, because he should have known immediately what that post indicated about my stance and my estimation of my usefulness in the game.

ffery could maybe be town. I'll give her some space for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ABR

First vote off my wagon after Tammy's post.

I realize that this is meaningless to other players because you don't know my alignment. But, I do know it, and so do scum. I don't see why scum-Tammy would take this stance. And more importantly, I don't see why Ceph, now known to be scum, would move in lockstep with a scumbuddy on my wagon-dismantlement.

UNVOTE

I had other reasons to think Tammy was town on day 1. This wagon-interaction adds some objective weight to those reasons.

[fferyllt]

These two posts, which were on the same page, make me cautious about assuming Tammy was scum with Ceph.

Yeah but normally I'm paranoid for a while and then I stop being paranoid, correctly so. This game I just think you're scum. Relatedly, I have not seen you be scum.

I can't ignore this correlation.

That's too bad for both of us if you're town.

Though, I'm in the middle of kinda fun state of mind with regard to this game. I see myself as approaching confirmed town status and my reads are going to be golden if that happens. So I should keep working on those reads.

Okay the ffery wagon is officially stupid.

Cabd? You're still scum reading ffery?

^^ She was wrong about why that post sounds like town-me, but not too far wrong.

But her comment did lead to the immediate dismantling of my wagon, even though she was commenting on something I had posted 2-3 days earlier. It still bothers me a little that Cabd didn't unvote or comment about the post until after Tammy did, because he should have known immediately what that post indicated about my stance and my estimation of my usefulness in the game.

ffery could maybe be town. I'll give her some space for now.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: ABR

First vote off my wagon after Tammy's post.

I realize that this is meaningless to other players because you don't know my alignment. But, I do know it, and so do scum. I don't see why scum-Tammy would take this stance. And more importantly, I don't see why Ceph, now known to be scum, would move in lockstep with a scumbuddy on my wagon-dismantlement.

UNVOTE

I had other reasons to think Tammy was town on day 1. This wagon-interaction adds some objective weight to those reasons.

So you don't think mafia would defend a townie.

Of course mafia will defend a townie. I guess it's the nature of the defense that caught my attention. It wasn't exactly meta-based, or she would have nailed the reason why that was a town post. It was based on a model of town-me that had a healthy helping of Tammy's own town-mindset of "I'm obvtown and you're mentally deficient if you can't see that".

It's the concatenation - the interaction - that makes me think they can't both be scum. And one has flipped.

And you don't think mafia would disagree with each other in the thread.

That's not what happened. She said "bad vote", and he unvoted.

So, assume she is scum. Does it make sense that another mafia player would be the first to unvote me?

I've seen better logic in my time.

It's not logic.