Open 575: Friends & Enemies-Together At Last (OVER)

[Mathdino]

That was fast, I've got a good feeling about this game's activity.

VOTE: SilverWolf because dinosaurs eat wolves.

[Mathdino]

If anything, wouldn't that fact make you

not

vote for SilverWolf, since you aren't afraid of him?

On the contrary good sir, I'm polite enough to wait until Silver's dead in order to eat him.

[Mathdino]

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

@wgeurts: RVS wagons can be good ways of getting reactions out of people. Why so concerned?

[Mathdino]

@wgeurts: Yet if everyone did that, nothing would happen, haha. I used to hate RVS but it's important for reaction fishing.
^Not liking RVS isn't a scumtell though, if anything it's a noobtowntell IMO.

@Victor: So that way when I inevitably ISO Newbie I'll have a meta to compare to. I don't want to bother waiting until Newbie's got a wagon on (him? her?) to skim a meta.

@Newbie: Yeah linking would cool, thanks.

@acryon: I'm not gonna get random-lynched and I'm really bad at feeling anything during games, haha. Talk to me after the game and I'll let out the rage.
Not really sure what you want me to say to "Why are you town?" other than I got a town PM. I'm not going to self-meta (I don't even have a scum meta yet) and I don't appreciate people trying to prove how town they are since it's easily WIFOM'd.

Edit: ^Written before post #38, gimme a sec.

[Mathdino]

Yeah now that you point that out, Wis, it kinda looks like Victor's fishing for anything "suspicious" that may not actually be scummy. Would've labeled that noobtown behaviour but the join date says otherwise.

FoS: that guy

@wgeurts: Wis got us out of RVS, which you don't seem to like much. If anything that's useful town behaviour; don't vote someone because you don't like their playstyle.

[Mathdino]

I've played with a Mala hydra but that's it, which is why I as a relative newcomer have a lot of meta to catch up on. Also I think I played with Duke but the game was abandoned before he posted.

Victor, how many answers to your question would even be possible? I guess what I'm asking is, what were you expecting? I'm not liking your response, sorry.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

[Mathdino]

Newbie is the one person who's posted who I have no real meta to look over. I don't know when the rest of the playerlist joined, so I haven't asked yet.

Victor if it's not a reaction test, your vote loses credibility if you have no discernible reasons for it. Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you?

Edit: Written before #66. And because I didn't really have anything to say on everything after 55, but I don't want to be unambiguous. Sometimes I respond to things people say, and then they post 10 more times before I submit.
Why are you spending more time asking questions about these minute details instead of scumhunting, brother?

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: I want to be ambiguous, I don't want to be unambiguous. My bad.

There's a town sort of RVS scumhunting and there's a scum sort. I think we've found the scum sort with Victor's lines of reasoning.

[Mathdino]

The "Are you waiting for acryon to answer for you" was referring to the general question of "How is wgeurys scummy?"

And yes, I have to label when I wrote stuff for the same reason you write the dates in citations: context is important, and info may be outdated. I found in my first game that when I polish my posts too much or rewrite them, it looks unnatural. So now I don't delete stuff I say.

And I said it wasn't a test because I just don't do tests. I wanted to make it clear that I had actual reasons for voting you so you wouldn't want to shrug it off on account of possibly being a test.

Here's the thing though, man: Why are you questioning me 3 or 4 times instead of your vote, wgeurys? What's your read on me?

[Mathdino]

Hmmm. OK. I would say you don't have to do that per say, despite what happened in Mafia with a twist. It actually looks scummy for a player to overexplain/cite particularly if they don't normally do it when their town (which you don't appear to).

Uh, hate to talk about that game but IIRC, that's exactly what I do. I find that transparent play helps me communicate and makes my thought process clearer instead of being out of thin air. I seem to recall explaining that (correct me if I'm wrong).

Points for doing your homework, E for effort

TTH, why Wisdom, or was that a random vote?

acryon, I like how you preempted Victor and incentivised not answering our questions to him.
Not sure what to make of acryon but it very much seems like him and Victor aren't scum together, so I'll hold off on that ping for now.

I agree with Mala; Newbie and Wisdom both seem town. NM is acting townish, I don't have enough for a read yet though.

[Mathdino]

Slayer's Gambit is bad but it very much seems on purpose rather than backtracking. Of course, since I can't quite tell which part of wgeurys's play fell under that gambit, that nullifies my entire read on him.

Which is exactly the problem with the gambit; it's the town's

job

to point out scummy behaviour, and if anything a lot of scum players don't want to be caught on a town lynch in the first place. And like I said, it makes you basically unreadable.

[Mathdino]

@TTH: My Wisdom townread comes from his early game, with the explicit willingness to wagon and get out of RVS. And I said that NM was ACTING town, not that I got a townread off him. Essentially, he gets points for helping with discussion but that's just "we should keep him around" points, not "he's town" points.
Honestly, I think you're fitting the evidence to the conclusion. Everything you said is more indicative of playstyle than scumminess, and IMO the both of them are acting in pro-town interests.
That strikes me as a little odd tbh, makes me think you're coming up with reasons to suspect them, but I won't FoS you for what I consider faulty reasoning right now.

@Mala: It (confidence in not being random lynched) was the truth, however naive I may be. I was directly asked how I felt about being under 'heat', and I basically didn't care. I was having a little bit of trouble responding to that, since it was kind of loaded.

[Mathdino]

Just realised the first sentence of that post made no sense. What I mean is, he had a clear intent in wagoning early on (getting reactions, getting out of RVS), and I don't think scum would want to do that due to the medium risk and low reward (what could he gain?).

Also just remembered; I find hating RVS to be a noobtowntell basically because that's what I did as noobtown, and the RVS haters I've seen tended to be town. Scum seem more willing to just go with the flow.

[Mathdino]

@Wisdom: The way wgeurts handled that seem pretty natural (I still don't like the Slayer Gambit). He seemed more focused on reactions to it than your own reaction; personally I wouldn't have expected much from you, considering you basically taunted him into voting, haha. I can't say I like how he's responding under pressure though.

Agreed on TTH though, scumhunting isn't the same as throwing out suspicions.

@wgeurts: Don't spend all your posts defending. What're your reads? Anything you've found interesting/want to point out?

[Mathdino]

Since when are early reads of little value? I'm not asking you to dayvig scum, I'm asking you to participate in discussion other than just defending yourself against... a couple questions. The more we talk the more likely scum emerges. Still not sure whether to FoS or to write off as current playstyle.

Yeah,

Slight FoS: You.

Why does acro seem town?

[Mathdino]

I gotta go somewhere now, but first of all

Please stop quoting text walls, it disincentivises catching up.

All you have to do is delete any quotes-within-quotes, only keep what you're responding to.

@wgeurts: ...did you seriously just OMGUS Newbie... I'm keeping my vote on Victor but the way you're responding to people's attacking is really making me uncomfortable.

@Everyone else (mostly TTH): Not enough time to respond, will come back to this later.

[Mathdino]

What, you think you're going to hurt my feelings if you FoS me? You're not.

All the reasons you just said are easily faked by scum players worth their weight in salt, especially with join dates like Wisdom's and NM's. I guessing that by now, Wisdom and NM aren't complete scrubs as scum. I haven't been around long myself, but I've played a newbie game and the SE's were both scum and dropped plenty of fake "towntells." I'm not as impressed as you are.

As for philosophy, I approach the game differently than most people here do. I use much the same strategy in forum mafia as I do in RL mafia: I observe how the individual fits in (or doesn't fit in) with group dynamics and build reads on that. In RL mafia, I find that scum tend to play conservatively especially at the beginning of the day before they know what kind of town dynamics they should conform to. I certainly do as scum; it's the optimal play and they win most of the time by doing so. I'm not very good at the whole "question and answer" thing that seems to be popular on this site because 1) I don't think I ask the right questions and 2) I'm not competent enough to do anything with the answers I get. So, I watch other people's modes of logic and try to fill in blanks.
[...]
Also, if others voted with me at this stage, I would be kind of suspicious since all the stuff I explained makes sense in my head, but I don't necessarily expect it to make sense to other people. Because it probably doesn't.

First of all, take a look at the beginning and the end of this post. You criticise me for making a point to not FoS you, but you preemptively cast suspicion on anyone who'd be willing to vote you for your reasoning? Regardless, my reads and commentary are for other people. My questions and arguments are for the people I'm talking to. And since I wasn't too confident about FoSing you, I wanted to make that clear.

Anyway, Wisdom and NM. I forgot to factcheck what you said about NM at first, but his first post points out something no one did beforehand, and he didn't even 'telegraph a scumread on Victor, so I'm not sure what you're smoking with respect to that. Wisdom ALSO was the first one to point out something, that being Victor's behaviour (which in fact was what made me notice it in the first place). Furthermore, he called Victor's questions useless, not scummy; I was the one that called him scummy. Do an ISO on the 3 of them together.

So essentially, you're scumreading them for 1. doing the exact opposite of what you're saying (you said they scumread without providing reasoning, when in fact they're providing reasoning without scumreading), and 2. playing conservatively, which is entirely a playstyle. You know how much outlandish D1 scum we have on here? RL mafia may be a little louder than MS, but over half the players I see on here play pretty conservatively early on, including me.

IMO, your reasoning sucks, but we can agree to disagree on that. But what I pointed out at the beginning only amplifies my

FoS: You (TTH)

.

But since I'm not totally sure on you, might as well ask: Whatcha think of Victor? Whatcha think of wgeurts?

[Mathdino]

Just in case I don't get around to quoting Newbie/wgeurts's barrage of posts (seriously guys, all you have to do is link to posts. [ url = (link) ] (text) [ /url ] without the spaces. Right click posts and copy link addresses), I'm reading them as TvT, but if one of them were scum, I'd say it'd be wgeurts. Funnily enough, if Newbie flips scum, I'd be almost certain wgeurts bussed her.

Sigh, here I go...

[Mathdino]

This post is gonna be a joyride. NO ONE QUOTE ALL OF IT.

Spoiler:

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
[...]
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

Sorry, but that argument very much seems out of thin air. It wouldn't have looked bad at all to dislike something and not vote based on it; half the playerlist has done that. Again, I don't LIKE what he did but he's completely consistent with wanting to leave RVS.

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

I did? Show me where. My point was I wasn't sure if everything you said before the gambit was part of the gambit itself. And yes, it's not based off of others. Where's the opurunism in voting what she finds scummy?

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

I don't like these posts at all. At the very least they showcase misguided arrogance, and at the most it's scummy. It'd be a dumbass move to not read your posts whether town or scum (although given your post spamming, it wouldn't be as dumb now). Newbie did do scumhunting; her first target was you. Do you not count that as scumhunting because you were her first suspicion?

And lastly, did you just SELF-META right before saying that Newbie providing her previous games should be discounted??? Newbie giving links for us to read is helpful. You telling us why you're town because of it is suspicious.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

Is there anything Newbie could've said in her vote post that you wouldn't find suspicious? And I'm not sure how pointing out OMGUS is showing some sort of link. I have a townread on Newbie. However I could have a scumread on her and still think you're OMGUSing.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

That was not a random vote. You made up a BS reason and voted him for reactions. That's not random. You're being seriously inconsistent, man.

And yes, it was LITERALLY based off of thin air.

Okay I decided to spoiler the above but I highly recommend y'all reading. If you're gonna quote parts of it, remove the spoiler tag.

Conclusions: wgeurts is way scummier than I thought before, but since I still don't think Victor and he are scum together, I'm going to keep my vote on Victor for now. Scumspects are in order, Victor or wgeurts, and TTH. Newbie still seems town.

[Mathdino]

No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

I just realised, you're mason fishing, aren't you? Interactive tells are very different in a mason game.

Yeah, this is enough for me to UNVOTE: Victor

VOTE: wgeurts

[Mathdino]

And mate, I love how you took my conclusion as my reasons. Wasn't gonna vote you until I actually went through and responded to your ISO. Last I checked, if I didn't think you looked scummier, my vote would be a policy lynch vote

[Mathdino]

You did read this post, right? At post 127, I thought you were misguided. At post 131 I thought you were being arrogant. At post 134 I thought you were hypocritical. And by the time I went over 140 and 142, I thought you were inconsistent and scummy. By the time I noticed what I interpret as mason-fishing, I thought you were scum.

[Mathdino]

Do you not care to respond to the rest of my post?

Scum want to find masons because masons are the only people other than scum that know people's alignments. So they look for interactive tells.

Which is what you just did with me and Newbie.

[Mathdino]

13 people are in this game. And no, I'm saying you're trying to find masons by noting 'weak links'. And yes, I'm attacking you for finding interactive DEFENCIVE tells, because that's information the scum can use. Because masons know each other are town. And are likely to subconsciously defend each other. Have you ever played with masons?

IDK, do you think nothing of my case? I'm not gonna write you off as scum but I certainly will to people who don't defend themselves. Can't say I appreciate you asking me what I 'want'...

Totally off topic: Wisdom, I can't stop reading your posts in L's voice. It's freaking me out.

[Mathdino]

Well, on the bright side, you've answered my "Have you ever played with masons" question with a full-on "No".

Scum wants to find masons, because masons can confirm themselves as town by claiming.
Scum wants to kill known masons because they are confirmed town and thus unlikely to be lynched.
You pointing out possible 'weak links' is anti-town because it helps scum PR hunt.
You seriously wouldn't kill masons over a VT?

I legitimately can't tell whether you're pretending to not understand this or really don't. If you don't, then you're noobtown. But given your Slayer Gambit earlier, this could be just one more big reaction test.
My vote stands.

[Mathdino]

That was written before 181. Now you are FULL ON MASON FISHING.

Lynch this guy. I can't really put it any other way.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for triple post. Written before 182 is what I meant. As in, I didn't see him DIRECTLY ASK ME TO CLAIM.

[Mathdino]

Eh. Tbh I feel like scum wouldn't do it so blatantly.

He already proved he's willing to fake a noobtown act; he told me I passed his 'test' by assuming he was noobtown. Because I felt back then that scum wouldn't vote you so blatantly.

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice...

Directly asking me to claim is a lynchable offence. There is no town motivation to do that.

[Mathdino]

You planning on continuing to ignore me? I would legit be flabbergasted if no one votes you by tomorrow just for that. I asked you a total of five (5) questions in that spoilered post. Two (2) of them are rhetorical and don't necessarily require answering, but it'd still be nice if you actually explained yourself to the people voting you.

That's not an opinion, brother. Asking for claims and pointing out links between people directly helps the scum hunt for PRs. The scum know more than the town does. They can use what town says about links better than the town can.

Edit: lol I still think his Slayer Gambit was planned. Except as scum fishing for reactions, since that gambit is insanely inaccurate.

[Mathdino]

This post is gonna be a joyride. NO ONE QUOTE ALL OF IT.

Spoiler:

As you can see from the bolded, Wisdom challenged wgeurts to do something about his discomfort of wagons. He most likely didn't expect that kind of response from Wisdom, and he kind of had no choice but to vote Wisdom since it would've looked bad not to back up his words after he put on a show of showing strong dislike towards Wisdom's random lynch in the first place.
[...]
With a little heat, he caved and unlynched, falling back on the explanation of reaction fishing. Lol. He even admits that his reasons were BS from the jump, but covered it up well with a "you're definitely town because you reacted a certain way to my sketchy reasoning, sketchy reasoning I definitely did on purpose."

Sorry, but that argument very much seems out of thin air. It wouldn't have looked bad at all to dislike something and not vote based on it; half the playerlist has done that. Again, I don't LIKE what he did but he's completely consistent with wanting to leave RVS.

Also, how was that pressure?
A quick ISO would already show that Mathdino had incorrectley read my playstyle. I had litteraly already said something along the lines of I'm going to yank us all out of RVS. This also seems really opurunistic as discussion is going on this subhect already and you're just like "Hey, guys check this new definetley not based off others case on wgeurts.". This seems really scum to me, the timing is just perfect.
VOTE: Newbie
I'll ISO in a second to see more.

I did? Show me where.

My point was I wasn't sure if everything you said before the gambit was part of the gambit itself. And yes, it's not based off of others.

Where's the opurunism in voting what she finds scummy?

You do know I already said they were weak as heck in or shortly after the vote and before pressure?
I beg you haven't even truely read all my posts and you jumped on me using others reasoning and some made up crumpets.

Also, if you've read my votes after that my intent was to get us out of RVS and the vote was a tool. Please meta read me and you will see this, votes are tools while needed and weapons once the time comes.

Haha, yeah I'm right. A quick ISO has shown you've done no scum hunting and literally just jumped on me out of the blue once people discussed my play. Yeah, I'm happy with my vote.

I recommend others to look at Newbies ISO.
Ignore his meta, the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it.

I don't like these posts at all. At the very least they showcase misguided arrogance, and at the most it's scummy. It'd be a dumbass move to not read your posts whether town or scum (although given your post spamming, it wouldn't be as dumb now). Newbie did do scumhunting; her first target was you.

Do you not count that as scumhunting because you were her first suspicion?

And lastly, did you just SELF-META right before saying that Newbie providing her previous games should be discounted???

Newbie giving links for us to read is helpful. You telling us why you're town because of it is suspicious.

I expected an OMGUS accusation to come from somewhere. Honestly I do find OMGUS rather weak, it basically allows you to attack someone as scum and if they retaliate you can shrug it off as OMGUS. I'm not voting Newbie as OMGUS, I'm voting him because her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted what so ever so far yet suddenley leaps on to me as discussion on me arises. If Newbie's actions change so will my read however if someone votes someone after they vote them it doesn't have to be OMGUS. It would have been OMGUS if I had no reasons to do so and voted him because he voted me. I did have reasons so no OMGUS. Now I can hear people saying;
"You only voted him because of his vote and push in his post though."
No, I'm voting because in that post there is some real scummy stuff. Just because Newbie voted me doesn't give im the right to be immune from me. The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you.

Is there anything Newbie could've said in her vote post that you wouldn't find suspicious?

And I'm not sure how pointing out OMGUS is showing some sort of link. I have a townread on Newbie. However I could have a scumread on her and still think you're OMGUSing.

What the heck is wrong with random voting in the RVS?
My vote on him was almost litteraly based off thin air.

That was not a random vote. You made up a BS reason and voted him for reactions. That's not random. You're being seriously inconsistent, man.

And yes, it was LITERALLY based off of thin air.

Okay I decided to spoiler the above but I highly recommend y'all reading. If you're gonna quote parts of it, remove the spoiler tag.

Conclusions: wgeurts is way scummier than I thought before, but since I still don't think Victor and he are scum together, I'm going to keep my vote on Victor for now. Scumspects are in order, Victor or wgeurts, and TTH. Newbie still seems town.

I bolded my questions.

[Mathdino]

So I was starting to second guess myself, because I honestly didn't think that Newbie was sheeping people. So I actually checked the friggin ISOs, and I found:

I find it weird that wgeurts unlynched wisdom when he started to receive a bit of heat for it.

Newbie was literally the first person to actually display

suspicion

for what you did, rather than simple criticism. She was also the first person to openly say that you unvoted Wisdom due to outside pressure. If anything, everyone else (Silver Wolf, Wisdom) followed HER on that. She voted you based on her own reasoning 3 pages prior. Congrats though trying to BS us on that.

On question #3: I didn't ask you to link any games. But you told us that we should ignore the meta that Newbie provided (which I directly asked for) because she'd be aware of it. Yet you, 2 posts beforehand, told us to look at your meta and then made a point about it.

Consider this, folks: We asked Newbie to provide some past games. She took the time to go find them, but didn't say anything about it. Does this mean that she's aware of her meta? No, just that she's willing to be read by us.
No one asked wgeurts to provide his meta. He took the time to point out his being consistent with other games. Does this mean that he's aware of his meta? Yes, and he's using that as an argument that he's town.

Which meta are you more likely to discount?

[Mathdino]

Agree with Wisdom, there's no way noobscum would keep up the act that he did, along with the reaction fishing in RVS. But like I pointed out acryon, he already pretended to be noobtown during the Slayer. He said something that benefits a scum agenda, and I think we're doing exactly what he wants this time: wave it off as just more noobtown.

Did another check by the way, wgeurts changes his story on Newbie again. Here he (implicitly) claims that other people created the reasons Newbie used to vote him, yet here he admits that Newbie did in fact say those reasons first. I should note that Newbie had a total of 1 post between her casting suspicion and her vote; it's incredibly likely Newbie came to the decision to vote him later on after reading his responses to people questioning him. Whether or not Newbie is scum, she's at least being consistent here.

@SilverWolf: "The fact you're saying this shows a weak link woth Newbie, if he flips scum I'll be suspicious of you." And then of course he pointed out that I'm making a point to not deny it because that would basically be a claim. I think he said that specifically to take note of my reaction in the hopes he'd nailed 2 masons off the bat.

And then he lines up my lynch if he's right about Newbie. Seems a bit confident, no? If Newbie IS in fact scum, which I doubt, I'm 90% sure wgeurts is trying to bus her off of shoddy reasoning and then line up lynches on anyone who called him an OMGUSer.

[Mathdino]

Mala's 2nd post, Mala's 3rd post, wgeurts's 105, Wisdom's 108, Newbie's 124, wgeurts's 127, TTH's 130, wgeurts's 132, Silver's 135. If you could cite, that'd be great for easy reference

127 isn't RVS. I think you misread 130 but it was a bit rambly so I'll let TTH explain, haha. I think scum nowadays like to distance themselves more than they like to buddy; I doubt Silver-scum would drop the suspicion so quickly at 135 just because of wgeurts's answers. It seems fairly natural town reasoning, IMO.

I like your post, Victor. Making me more confident that wgeurts is scum and not you.

[Mathdino]

Request replacement for DukeC; he's already been replaced out of some other games.

TTH, not having supporters definitely doesn't make you town. Scum in general is very very keen to bus and distance themselves from each other, especially if someone slips.

Also, I'm guessing you have no thoughts on the rest of wgeurts's posts? (shamelessly asking for your thoughts on my analysis turned case)

[Mathdino]

@Mod: Request replacement on both Duke and Undertaker, they literally flaked all their games; haven't posted since the queue.

Well Newbie, if you fall short here, explore other avenues.
In the interest of not tunneling, got any reads on the rest of the playerlist?

Actually I'm kinda disappointed in today's activity, so:

SilverWolf

: Whatcha think of TTH and her reads on Wisdom and NM?

TTH

: eh already asked you question. If you get around to this, by PoE (heh, Tell Tale Heart using PoE), the scum are in {Wisdom, DukeC, Undertaker, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, acryon}. That seem accurate? You mentioned that acryon had articulated good reasoning, but never mentioned a read on him.

Wisdom

: No questions, just wanted to say I don't think there's anything wrong creating discussion about other players as long as it doesn't turn into tunneling.

Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, Malakittens

: I'm assuming for now you guys are gonna provide more stuff later (I know blindme's been pretty busy IRL; I'd expect activity to go up this weekend). NM, anything to say on the discussion of you? Anything on the wgeurts wagon?

Already asked all the questions I got for wgeurts. Agree with blindme, I'd recommend putting and leaving him at L-2 for pressure. Confident enough with the playerlist that no one'll quicklynch him.

[Mathdino]

You do realise self hammering is only something you should do as scum, right?

If you're town, then you're hammering confirmed town to you.

If you're scum, you're assuming you'll get lynched anyway, and thus preventing the town from more discussion.

[Mathdino]

Dude, over 80% of your posts are basically 1 line defences and justifications. Tell us who the apparent 'scum running the town' is, build a case, and show us who to lynch instead. Otherwise you're not helping us at all. And no, your points against Newbie weren't a case, it mostly consisted of quote walling and, as someone else put it, a "Hah, gotcha".

And I don't have any new questions; I feel I've asked all I need to. The burden's on you, man.

Unless of course this is all AtE to get us to stop the wagon, in which case I'm not falling for it.

[Mathdino]

Not sure about you, Finn, but I don't give a crap about what happened in RVS. Like I said, I honestly do believe what he did back then was exactly what he said he was doing: a reaction test.

My problem lies in his battle with Newbie, his hypocrisy about meta, the weak links he likes to point out, and the outright asking me to claim.

[Mathdino]

Uh, not sure if you caught this, but I think about 4 people asked him to give his reads and explain who he thought was scum... What, did you expect him to FoS you and Victor with a tr-tr-trembling...voice?

I don't like this. I see nothing between your last post 256and the above that would tip your read on wgeurts from suspicious to lynchworthy.

The pressure getting to you, Wisdom? 2 people suspect you for wishiwashiness and you cave in and hop on the wagon?
I still think wgeurts is scum. But regardless of his alignment, I'm seeing some merit in

FoSing: Wisdom

.

mod edit: fixed link.

[Mathdino]

Yo mod, can you fix the link in the above post please?

In the interest of not wasting a post...
Agree that NM should follow through.
I do find it interesting that wgeurts dropped off the Newbie suspicions and moved to the town's other 2 suspects, but I can't really blame him anymore than I already do considering we did ask.

Mala

, assuming you're sticking with your vote on acryon, any reads on everyone else? Particularly interested in your thoughts on Victor and Wisdom.
The same goes to

blindmewithscience and FinnLaw

; I know I'm the guy trying to push the wgeurts wagon, but this town as a whole really is tunneling him and the discussion on him.

Newbie

, what you said on Wisdom doesn't nullify if wgeurts flips scum. Scum bus a lot. Anyway, I'm especially interested to hear what you think on what Wisdom just posted.

For the record, I think I'm at the point where if I didn't put suspicion on you and you posted more than 5 times, I'm townreading you.

Welcome Finn and feel better Silver.

Edit: Okay, derp, that actually makes sense. Not deleting the above for the sake of record but that is a good point.

unFoS: you

.

[Mathdino]

You know, the funny thing about this is by post 279 I started to rethink my read on wgeurts and saw this as frustrated town again.

BUT THEN HE PUSHES MASON CLAIM AGAIN.

wgeurts, if you're town, and I don't think you are, think about this: a mason is basically an innocent child. Now some setups let inno childs wait and PM the mod when they want to be confirmed town, instead of confirmed on D0.
Which innocent child do you think is more powerful?

That is why we don't ask masons to claim until they can actually use this info for their benefit.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for double post, but I don't think this is Catch 22. It's the pitfall of using AtE in games with (I presume) more logical players. wgeurts lost credibility the moment he self-voted, as does anyone outside of RVS (and some would say inside), so in this case I'm gonna have to defer to Wisdom's reasoning here: frustrated town is usually too frustrated to just go ahead and listen to everyone.

Also, awkward moment when we're all still tunneling wgeurts.

FinnLaw

, you probably didn't notice because I put it in the middle of a line, but I asked what your other reads were, if any.
The problem this game is I've got 4 suspects that I've created (Victor, wgeurts, TTH, Wisdom), but I'm really finding it difficult to even see more than 1 scum in there; I think if I had to pick, it'd be wgeurts-TTH, but even that seems a bit off to me. So let's go PoE.

I'm very much getting a townread on

Mala's

one liner reactions to everything.

blindmewithscience

I'm getting a townread on, he seems like he actaully wants to help and I feel like I'd notice from his first few posts if he was scum (he's very much new to forum mafia, and like I said, I know the guy).
Hmm,

acryon

. I'm a bit biased, because answering questions for other people was one of my problems as town early on. It's not helpful to interrogators but I do see it as trying to help with discussion. Townread on him.

Victor

is town due to the latter half of his ISO. I do hope he posts more results of his questioning though, otherwise I'm still gonna see how he acted in the first few pages as just throwing out suspicions.

Wisdom's

votepost was pretty much the main thing that made me suspect him. I can't see a Wisdom-wgeurts scumteam at all at the moment, so I'll reserve judgment on him until tomorrow. Town for now.

That leaves FinnLaw, TTH, NM, Silver, and Undertaker.

Undertaker

I'm obviously throwing out for now. Did an ISO on

NM

and I realised there's really not as much to discuss as I thought (still not sure what TTH is smoking).

Finn's

whole Catch 22 thing

kinda

leans town, but it also seems like it could be an AtE in defence of a scum-wgeurts (as in "we're being unfair to this guy, give him a chance"). There's also how he responded to wgeurts self-voting. I can see a Finn-wgeurts team. Lean null-scum for now.

TTH

I've already stated my thoughts on. Can't get a friggin read due to her playstyle. She's my only non-lurking nullread.

If you skimmed this post, this is the part where you start reading.

Which leaves us at

SilverWolf

, who I actually ISO'd 2nd or 3rd in order to put her in the townreads list. See, when I ISO people, I mostly look out for anything that was their original reasoning, anything they created. But then I noticed there was basically none in her ISO. Seriously, take a look at it. I'll be here when you get back. Or you could keep Silver's ISO on another tab while you read the below, since I don't expect you to click a dozen links.

Alright. 35 repeats what I said about reaction testing. 84 is literally "I agree". 85 and 86 are suspicion and a vote for Victor, I don't think I have to explain how this isn't new. 95 is literally repeating my (and possibly other's) reasoning for voting Victor. 121 is jumping on Mala's "Stop butting in, acryon, sheesh" train of thought. 135, repetition of wgeurts reasoning for voting Newbie. 207 is fencesitting on the me vs wgeurts issue. Free pass on 238 since I literally asked for her thoughts on Wisdom and NM. And finally, 257 (unvote yourself, wgeurts) was already said by Finn.

I spent most of the game under the impression Silver was being helpful and contributing, but there have been 0 no lines of reasoning in the ENTIRETY of the ISO. I think Silver is playing it safe, blending in. And with that I have my new 2nd highest suspect.

FoS: SilverWolf

. Someone let me know if I'm crazy on this by the way, that took a long time to do. Also open to defence on Silver's part, but honestly, more contribution from her will do more than responding to this post.

Edit: I like Victor's above post.

[Mathdino]

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

[Mathdino]

You [Wisdom] appear to be pushing wgeurts who is obviously newbtown VT as scum and you continue to do so regardless of how many times he answers for himself, and you are especially pushy about it whenever the pressure seems to come off him. You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch.

If he was so obvious, people wouldn't be voting him. Quality over quantity; wgeurts's answers sucked and he started seriously contradicting himself multiple times. Thus far no one's given a decent defence of wgeurts other than "He's just newbtown" when as we pointed out so many times, he's very much willing to pretend to be newbtown as shown by earlygame.
I find it odd (not scummy, just fallacious) that you're basing your Wisdom suspicions on the assumption that you and everyone else including Wisdom know he's town. You can't see this as just voting for the scummiest person?

The above comment by you is blatantly sheeping a bad case on me by mathdino. His whole post was crap and not worth a response. He's making up reasons to find me scummy and he can take his fabricated case on me and shove it where the sun don't shine. The fact that the only thing you had to say about it was the above extremely weak comment, reminds me of scum blending in, being wishy-washy, and not wanting to commit to any stance that might come back to bite them later in the game.

My heart is warmed. So am I scum or what? I fit the reads to the evidence, not vice versa. I had 0 suspicions on you (and very much had a townread on you) before I decided to make that post out of frustration that my analysis and interactive reads only allowed for one scum. I'd never even ISO'd you this game until that post.

You don't get to call my case fabricated without even referencing it. Show everyone what's so bad about it. You'll note that signs of 'blending in' and sheeping everyone else in the game is precisely what makes me think you're scum. So either you're hypocritical or I'm wrong. By all means, prove me wrong. Until then,

UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf

To me, this seems to be based on an oversimplification of how emotions work in general. They can be fleeting or long lasting (life has taught me this). To flippantly say "the only emotions are the ones that don't fade" doesn't even sound remotely right. There's such a thing as doing rash things in the heat of the moment and, no offense to wgeurts, but he comes off as the kind of guy that would do something like that.

Psychologically, you're right. However that's not how it usually works in mafia games. Self voting by non-trolls can typically be interpreted as not anger but loss of interest and giving up, and that interest typically takes a lot more to get back than a few people saying "unvote yourself dammit". Having read a crapton of games I think Wisdom's making a very good point here; most self voters don't unvote until A. they get lynched, B. they get replaced, or C. their wagon dies.

Other thoughts:
I don't appreciate what I interpret as buddying from blindme.
Lol, I just reread Silver's posts and realised that even her latest posts fit with the whole "using everyone else's ideas, saying nothing new".
I still think Wisdom is town. Everything he's said seems very natural, and I'm not willing to lynch someone for taking that long to not vote; god knows I do that a ton.

Newbie

, who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts/Wisdom? What are your thoughts on Silver?

[Mathdino]

I like how Silver is engaging in conversation with her top suspect who she thinks is scum
but is completely ignoring me.

Thanks for that one.

[Mathdino]

What do you want to talk about?

I told you my opinion on your case on me. I'll admit it was too harsh so sorry about that. However, most of your responses to what I have to say here is telling me I'm sheeping and not providing original content. I don't feel it is best to engage you right now if you are going to be so close-minded to everything I say. If you are convinced enough that I'm scum that your are going to remove your vote from your top scumread and place it on me, there isn't much more I can do about it.

However, if you have any questions for me or anything you want to discuss, feel free. I'm not ignoring you outright. I'll respond to you.

In all fairness, no one's posted a defence of you, so defending yourself would in fact be original content, haha.

You say I fabricated a case on you. What makes you say that?
Do you think I'm scum?
I'd like you to flesh out your case on Wisdom, because as it is, it completely relies on wgeurts being town and Wisdom's votepost. Contrary to your belief, I can be swayed on this issue.
Who would you want to lynch if not Wisdom? If your answer to the 2nd question is 'yes', who if not me/Wisdom?
Any other reads? I really don't want this town to turn into the Wisdom and Wgeurts Show; it lets people pretty much cruise by with minimal effort and just pick a side.

Dammit, I got distracted. All of the above was written as of #330. Haven't read past, will respond to that in a sec.

[Mathdino]

Actually none of my thoughts have changed aft reading the last 10 posts. Still think Newbie and Wisdom are town.

Mala, I wasn't saying you're town because you're posting one-liners, I'm saying I got a townread from your one-line posts. Lil different.

Confession: I'm a little disappointed most people ignored my case on Silver, lol. I changed my vote because she's my top suspect but I'd be willing to switch back to wgeurts if necessary. I think I'd be willing to vote Wisdom solely to prevent a NL because the flip is useful, but that's not happening until the last 12 hours of the day, which I doubt we'll get to.

[Mathdino]

FoS: SilverWolf

. Someone let me know if I'm crazy on this by the way, that took a long time to do. Also open to defence on Silver's part, but honestly, more contribution from her will do more than responding to this post.

I see you skimmed the part I told you not to, haha. I had no questions because I didn't want to spoonfeed you things to say; given that my case was based off of lack of original content on your part, asking you "What do you think of X? What do you think of Y?" would kind of undermine whatever your thoughts were, since I prompted them.
My case on you showed how literally every one of your posts came together to support a certain image of you. I can see how it wouldn't be persuasive or conducive to reading since it was long as hell (I still have a bit of walling left in me), but I'd say it's far from weak.

In defence of myself, there's a fine line between "looking for an easy mislynch" and "looking for the scummiest person". In my opinion, you are the scummiest person. People who are able to defend their actions are not as scummy. wgeurts's defending himself only created more contradictions and resulted in the "LET'S HAVE MASONS CLAIM" BS. You didn't defend yourself at all, which is why I voted you. I admit, some people have different playstyles from me. I wouldn't play anything like Mala's been playing, and I think blindme's last couple posts are actually more IIoA than not, but I wouldn't call either of them scummy for it. Hell, the way you were posting isn't that far from how I post. The difference is in the content.

I made that post before those posts, I should've deleted that question, sorry. But look, Silver, I've literally finished 5 games of mafia ever (along with 1 abandoned). 4, including the abandoned one, ended for me after D1. I think I've played a grand total of 10 days of mafia. I'm not sure if you've done less, but I don't think we need to bring experience level into this. I'm not attacking you because you're inexperienced, I'm attacking you because I see you at the moment as noobscum. It is, of course, entirely possible that you're being scummy BECAUSE you're inexperienced, but I can't just give you a free pass for being new.

I would hope you'd be able to leave the game behind in your personal life/feelings. Being attacked is part of the game, not just attacking others. And I do hope you feel better.

Since Silver's back in 2nd place (I don't want to say why right now because again I don't really want to tell people how not to be scummy), and because her reads are presumably coming later, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt for now and
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts.

[Mathdino]

I thought I said more than that?

And others said things that I didn't feel I needed to repeat

. But I will for posterity.

-Use of AtE more than once.(323, 347)

-Very weak defense that lacked any real conviction. (335)

-Terrible argument about Dino "fabricating" a case on you. (437)

-Agreement with Newbie's weak argument that you back up with similarly flawed reasoning. (308)
-Agreement with Newbie another time where Newbie's argument wasn't necessarily bad, but your post added approximately nothing (84)
-Reasoning for voting Victor was just an argument I made much earlier; nothing original added at all. (98)

-In 121, after just saying in 98 that you thought the questioning of Victor was making a problem out of nothing, you question my questioning of Victor on it, asking where it might have gone even though in 98 you eluded to the fact that it wasn't an actual problem, and was thus, going nowhere.

-135. Not sure how that vote from Newbie would have been opportunistic at all. It was completely in the spotlight and was the second vote on the wagon. I would hardly call that opportunistic. If Newbie was 3rd or 4th maybe, and if Newbie's reasoning was bad, but it wasn't terrible.
-247 is another seemingly pro-town comment that lacks any real original content.

TLDR; other than the first two points I made, a lot of it has to do with you piggy-backing off of others' content to make it seem like you are scum-hunting. Opportunistic, in short.

So far you are just disagreeing with the points I am making and using the same old argument mathdino and Wisdom are using regarding the piggy-backing without using any real original content. I've already answered to this. You just don't like it. Where's your original content in your case above?

You're wrong (nice way to start a post I know). I'm not really quite sure if you read the post. Speaking as the person who thought he laid out every single reason one could possibly have for voting you, acryon did in fact have new reasons and I bolded them above.
I'm not sure where you got the idea that that wasn't original, but what you're doing is deflection. "Oh, you're attacking me for so-and-so? Well this other guy has TOTALLY done so-and-so, why are you going after the one who can't defend myself?" Except the other guy hasn't done that at all. Trust me, I ISO'd every single player and every other player has provided more content than you have. Apologies for the dramatisation.

Do you think Acryon is scum or misguided town Silver?

I believe it is very possible he is jumping onto a case that mathdino and Wisdom already discussed with me in detail yesterday to push it again. I'm not liking this or his aggression this game or his jumping into conversations and answering questions not directed at him. I also think some of his posts come off as forced/fake regarding trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting. It seems like it could be scum motivated.

Silver, you act as if A. the discussion was ONLY between you, me, and Wisdom, and B. once I unvoted you, it was over. I specifically asked everyone to participate in the discussion just to see what people thought, and acryon stepped up to the plate (I for one, am pleased that he actually managed to add to the case). Also, the "Trying to appear town and trying to appear to be scumhunting" is a universal case that can be used on literally every mafia player. Ever. Show us proof that his posts are forced/fake.

You have successfully OMGUSed (by way of suspicion) everyone to put suspicion on you.

Question 1:
How is MathDino making a case on you based on your ISO rather than engaging you directly bad?

I answered MathDino last night when he asked me this and you'll find it in my ISO. If you have something else you want to know, ask.

Question 2:
Do you really think that just because Wisdom didn't have his vote in place that people would forget his push on wgeurts? Do you not think that his intentions and actions were clear enough even without the vote?

No and Yes. I explained the problem I had with Wisdom's vote and several other posts laying out my case in detail last night. If you have a specific question, that has not been discussed already, ask.

Bottom line is, I'm not going to continue to repeat myself on issues you are bringing up that have already been discussed in detail and are not original thoughts from you. The same issue you say you are having with me.

Silver, part of the purpose of questioning you is to get you to rephrase and to see how well you match up with what you said previously. Avoiding questions because you think the discussion is over is just more deflection.

Because of basically everything you said since my last post (and no, Silver, it's not because acryon voted), you're back at the top.
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf

[Mathdino]

Alright, so like blindme said, this town's incredibly divided and at this rate if everyone votes their top suspects, no one's getting lynched. Halfway into the day, I think we're ready to look at our options:
Guys, correct me if I'm wrong on these.

acryon

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

blindmewithscience

wants to lynch wgeurts and seems unsure on Wisdom and Silver (

blindme

, I'd appreciate your thoughts on those 2 wagons and anyone else you feel is worthy of suspicion).

FinnLaw

seems willing to lynch Wisdom and is unsure on wgeurts.

Malakittens

wants to lynch acryon and is unsure on a whole bunch of people (

Mala

, I don't think we're getting a lynch on acryon. I only speak for me but I'm pretty sure he's town atm. If you want, build a case, but I'd prefer your thoughts on the other suspects)

Mathdino

wants to lynch Silver and is willing to lynch wgeurts.

Newbie

wants to lynch Wisdom (

Newbie

, I'd really appreciate if you expanded on your other suspicions just in case the Wisdom wagon doesn't pull through)

Not_Mafia

is unwilling to lynch wgeurts and is on V/LA.

SilverWolf

wants to lynch Wisdom and seems willing to lynch acryon and Mathdino.

TellTaleHeart

wants to lynch Wisdom.

VictorDeAngelo

wants to lynch wgeurts, and based on wgeurts being scum is willing to lynch SilverWolf and blindmewithscience.

wgeurts

wants to lynch Wisdom and is willing to lynch Victor. (Hasn't posted since the Silver suspicions started popping up.

wgeurts

, thoughts on that?)

Wisdom

wants to lynch wgeurts and is willing to lynch SilverWolf or Newbie, seems unsure on Mala.

That's 6 on Wisdom, 5 on wgeurts, 4 on Silver, 2 on acryon, 1 on blindme, 1 on Newbie, 1 on myself, 1 on Victor.
However, we should note that the majority of the town that's talked is unwilling to lynch wgeurts right now, so unless that's our only option other than a NL, that wagon doesn't seem like it's going to pull through.
For the Wisdom wagon, people who aren't already voting him seem fairly unsure on him.

Which is why I think we need more discussion on Silver. Paging

blindmewithscience

,

FinnLaw

,

Malakittens

, and

TTH

. Finn and TTH in particular since they've posted since my case and haven't discussed at all yet.

[Mathdino]

Silver's 347, Silver's 385.

Liking blindme for town for reasons already pointed out. Thought process seems fairly natural.

I just realised that I completely forgot to include Newbie in my reads list. Everything on her ISO with the exception of the wagon hop to Wisdom seems townish, but what I don't get is how or why she got convinced so easily by someone she thought was scum a page prior. I could see how she might fall for the AtE self voting/unvoting stuff, but that doesn't negate everything did beforehand.

Newbie, sorry for the rampant questioning, but can you explain this more?

On a sidenote, I forgot to say this earlier, but I'm not sure what I think of Newbie's overconfidence that Wisdom isn't town (saying she'll be a top suspect if he does). On the contrary; if Wisdom is lynched and actually flips scum, I'm turning to you for bussing the guy.
Slightly leaning town on Newbie, I don't think that's gonna change until we get at least a flip.

Actually, I remember having thoughts on interactive tells I forgot to post. Lemme see if I can remember those and I'll post a few thoughts in a sec.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Only Directed To Newbie

I disagree on wgeurts but I can see where you're coming from, thanks. I do agree that it's very much doubtful they're both scum. I should point out though that focusing on one thing/person at a time is basically tunneling, which pretty much gets us nowhere and blinds us to other possible suspects. After all, there are 3 scum, and there's always the chance neither wgeurts nor Wisdom is one of them.

I'll take you at your word for now because I still think you're town and I still think Wisdom's town, haha. The bussing suspicion was derived entirely from the post you linked to; the fact that you're at risk if you mislynch really just doesn't need to be said, since that's true of pretty much everyone. If Wisdom flips town, I'll still think you're town. You should know that people bus a LOT nowadays, and a lot of the time scum like to stay off town wagons precisely so they're not blamed for it. It's all very WIFOMy and kinda pointless to discuss before D2. Honestly Newbie, I think your issue might be basing too much off of interactions and preconceived notions (Wisdom is scum, therefore the people voting him are town, etc). Scum behaviour is scum behaviour.

But hey, let's compromise

(this goes to everyone voting Wisdom)

. I think Wisdom is town and Silver is scummy independent of him. But I'm going to assume Wisdom is scum and try to take an objective view of this.

Open up this ISO of the two of them. I find it notable that they have ZERO interaction up until isolattion #42, where I had to literally ask Silver what she thought of Wisdom. Spoiler: She approves of him. Hell, even Wisdom is troubled by this (isolation #63). Note that I've pretty much been townreading Wisdom the whole game; if he's scum, he's only pointing out Silver because a wagon could easily form against her from my case while keeping me as a buddy.

So why then, does Silver decide to vote Wisdom instead of the dude who made a crap case against her? Answer: She recognises that Wisdom is bussing her and goes along with it because A. Wisdom is more likely than me to get lynched, and B. She wants towncred for going after scum (she got it from you, Newbie). Now, you may say that Silver just found Wisdom scummier, but everything that was said about Wisdom applies to me as well. Read the post. She didn't mention his votepost like everyone else did.

Not many other singular posts apply, I highly recommend just reading the ISO yourself and coming to a conclusion. How me-who-thinks-Wisdom-is-scum interprets it: Wisdom and Silver don't interact AT ALL until my case on Silver, which suddenly makes them start distancing each other to hell. Silver actually starts ignoring me and tunnels Wisdom for a page. They're banking on one of them getting lynched and the other getting MASSIVE towncred for it due to their bickering.

And yes, this is absolutely a 'damned if you do damned if you don't'. Silver is scummy enough IMO to transcend Wisdom's flip; if Wisdom flips scum, it points to Silver, and if he flips town, it negates your entire reason for a townread on her.

So let us come together, wgeurts-tunnelers, and Wisdom-tunnelers, lurkers and spammers, one-liner-ers and wallposters, let us come together to banish the wolf of silver hide from this town. /endrant
I'm welcome to reasonable critique of the above case, since I AM trying to put myself in a mindset that I wouldn't normally. However, I'd appreciate if you didn't discount it simply because of that.

[Mathdino]

Okay first of all, the last part of that was written tongue in cheek, mocking the whole 'compromise' thing I was going for. I'm glad you found them amusing, that was the point

Anyway, I haven't been doing that to you all game at all. There are very many things you can say I won't find fault with; hell, I was prepared to praise the reads list you promised twice for at least being new content. Still waiting on that by the way. Anything original from you that's not AtE I'll appreciate. You're falling into the trap of assuming that because I criticised everything you did, there's no longer any point defending and continuing the game with me. And as I said, I don't respond well to AtE or complaining or dismissal.
I find your tunnel vision thing interesting, considering I am in fact commenting on everyone and came to you as a result of not wanting to tunnel wgeurts and just make a wgeurts vs Wisdom debate. wgeurts hasn't posted since before your case, so yeah, it's on you. Deal with it, being scrutinised is the name of the game.

I don't think Wisdom is scum, and I didn't change my mind. It's called a compromise. I think if Wisdom flips scum, it would very much make sense that you guys would be bussing each other, so I'm asking the Wisdom wagon to at least consider it. And no, it's not a fantasy, it's called basic logic. If A implies B, and not A implies B, then B is true. A = "Wisdom is scum". B = "SilverWolf is scum". Do the Math.

If you flip town? I still have my suspicions on wgeurts. I think Wisdom may have a point on there being scum in {SilverWolf, Newbie} but as I said I'm not prepared to go after Newbie without at least a flip. I'll also go over some wagon analysis, but I can't exactly do that right now.

How bout you? Do you have suspicions on ANYONE who doesn't have suspicions for you? I think it's really rich that all it takes to get attacked by you is a vote or FoS. It's like a quadruple OMGUS.

Edit: Written as of #392.
Edit: Mala stop ninjaing me...

[Mathdino]

Silver, you misunderstand me. I know you listed the reasons you find Wisdom scummy. But every one of those applies to me as well. So why hop on the Wisdom wagon? Is that not opportunism in itself? All 305 says is you disagree with Wisdom's vote. Well good for you. I voted wgeurts too, as did a lot of people. And then 308, as I mentioned previously, is just a repeat of what Newbie said.

Associative tells are useful after a flip, yes.
So why do you keep using them for your Wisdom case? It relies on wgeurts being town, does it not?
My point is that you being scum doesn't even rely on Wisdom's flip. It's essentially a refutation of Newbie's read on you (she thinks you're town because Wisdom is scum).

Dammit Mala, y u ignore the entire SilverWolf fiasco...

[Mathdino]

Not much to say on the last bout of posts. I want to point out to Silver that I don't find voting scum scummy, and I don't find voting town scummy, it's all dependent on the context. The "Let's assume Wisdom is scum" started as a thought experiment on my part after Newbie claimed that you being town relies on Wisdom being scum.
I'm also not giving blindme a free pass because I agree with him; I have a townread on him because I find his thought process townish. You'll note that I did point out the slight buddying and IIoA, but I'm willing to discount that on account of his experience level. IIoA is fairly common for people's first few games.

Thanks, Wisdom, I'll keep that in mind if Silver continues to contribute. The fact remains, however, that it seems unlikely we'll get a lynch on wgeurts.

@FinnLaw: So I'm assuming you don't like detailed/analytical?
I would attribute the apparent wishiwashiness to the fact that if I were in charge, we'd lynch wgeurts and Silver in succession. My vote is just indicative of which one I find scummier at that particular point in time, but I'd gladly vote for either, hence my willingness to switch so much. Watch me.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
VOTE: wgeurts
UNVOTE: wgeurts
VOTE: SilverWolf
And thanks, I look forward to it.

[Mathdino]

Of course you don't have anything to say on the last round of posts because you have decided that no matter what I say, that you are going to stick with me as scum regardless. I also find you are giving others who have contributed far less a pass for very little reasoning. And you have very little to say on the ones who have barely contributed but are expecting me to give more than I have time for right now frankly. I think there is something else going on here that is causing you to dislike me other than just looking for scum. I just haven't figured out which mindset it is coming from yet.

I think this is unnecessary and unwarranted. It's called observation. No matter what I do, given current activity, you're not in danger of being lynched in at least a couple IRL days. I've asked all I want to ask, so now I'm going to sit back and watch what you do when you're not being attacked and rethink my suspicion if it comes to that. You're much scummier when you're being attacked. But hey, since you seem so insistent on fighting me, let it be known that you asked for it...

Once again, I don't care how much reasoning or how many words you post if it's not original. I found (as laid out in my case) that literally everything you said before the case was unoriginal. Literally everything you said before you gave your reads was either unoriginal, AtE, or OMGUSing. Do I expect you to talk more? (No, Ms. Bond, I expect you to die) No, but I found it pretty glaring when out of all the talking you did, everything was based off of someone else's reads/evidence/reasoning.

First of all, someone else doing something doesn't make it okay. Second of all, name names instead of throwing out a general deflection like that. Who isn't contributing that I should go after? Mala's posted new thoughts. TTH was the first one to suspect Wisdom and NM. Finn just replaced in. blindmewithscience is very clearly trying to contribute. And NM is on friggin V/LA; you want me to go after him for it?
If you're referring to wgeurts, I'm happy going after him, thanks. Why no names? Are you afraid to throw out more suspicions than you already have?

If I'm town, why would I dislike you other than looking for scum? I dislike VIs, trolls, and self hammerers. You're not any of these.
Which leads into my point that I'm not too comfortable with your fencesitting on the topic of me. I'd probably have felt better about you if you went after both me AND Wisdom off the bat instead of picking on the guy with a wagon and not the guy with no votes. Yet you continue to attempt to discredit me. Discrediting without actually suspecting is pointless as town but useful for scum; allows one to create dissent without getting the glame for it.

@Wisdom, acryon: I agree with acryon on the momentum of the wgeurts wagon. Too many people seem unwilling to lynch wgeurts unless it's near the deadline, and I'd prefer a more voluntary lynch where people ACTUALLY suspect the guy they're voting. Easier for wagon analysis. But hey, prove me wrong. It'll be good to hear from NM and Undertaker's replacement.

[Mathdino]

By the way, you forgot to respond to 384 like blindme asked. Don't let my utter lack of thoughts on you distract you.

Edit: Never mind then. But seriously, I didn't ask you to spend your time responding to what wasn't even an attack on my part. If you want to attack my logic, then I absolutely will defend it. Or rethink it if I say something idiotic. But mostly defend it. I'd invite you to continue posting reads and do whatever you were doing rather than picking a fight if that stresses you out.

Good luck IRL.

[Mathdino]

Guys, I'd like to hear more thoughts on Silver's behaviour since getting attacked.

I'm generally not very good with emotional

people

players

because I am a robot

so I'd really appreciate some input here so I don't end up assuming everything emotional is

stupid and illogical

AtE.

[Mathdino]

Alright, sorry, my site activity's been driven down considerably for the past few days. I can't say I agree with wgeurts's case on Newbie, but Newbie's already been responding to that. For one, if your (wgeurts's) reads are correct, Newbie pounced on her teammate for no real reason when it's not even clear that's going to be the lynch. Wouldn't it make more sense for her to jump on your wagon (obviously assuming you're town for this response).

Agh, SilverWolf replacing out kinda ruins a lot of today's momentum.
UNVOTE: SilverWolf
Gonna ISO wgeurts's posts since coming back to the thread and maybe rethink my read on him.

I usually don't explain my reads or thoughts until many questions have been asked. Most people on this site suck at playing mafia, or let their ego's drive their decision making.
Everyone's so sure that they know who scum is, that no one's willing to cooperate. I would like to cooperate, and I would like to win this game. Please help me do that.

If you want my statement, you're going to need to give it some time. Lord know's we have plenty of it. I always like seeing what others think of my vote

before

I tell them why I chose it. It really defeats the purpose to feed reasoning scum can easily refute. Encouraging people to think for themselves goes a mile longer than me telling them why to follow my lead.
With that said,

why do you think I might be scum reading him

?

I'm also not a big fan of "democratic" mafia. The kingdom of god is a theocracy, people just get in the way of justice.
The chances of actually catching scum through...
A) Cooperation
B) Authority Figure's

... are about 100% guaranteed. I dont want other people's opinions, because unless what you're saying is very thoughtful, it is just clutter which confuses decision making.
I would like to lynch Vincent or Mathdino today, and am not to eager to look for alternatives. Let's just get the job done. With that said, if you haven't clarified your RFV (Reason for vote) yet, now is the time to do so.

First of all, I just want to say from reading the thread yesterday "I love this guy", and his posts really aren't that hard to read. Impressed that he manages to keep up the posting style. But that's got nothing to do with his content...

Brother, you don't get to replace into the thread and set yourself up as town leader to strongarm reads out of people and say your ego isn't driving your decision making. ISO me and you'll find plenty of reasons I have for my reads; I don't care to repeat because it saves you the work of going through my more detailed cases. So no, I'm not participating in your "encouraging people to think for themselves"; I think I'm doing fine without it.

"Cooperation" and "Authority figures"??? By that you mean "Cooperation WITH Authority Figures", which is very much not cooperation with each other. I don't appreciate your arrogance about ignoring what everyone says because it's "clutter" while asking people to clarify themselves.

Understand that I don't think you're scum for all of this yet, but my opinion of your reads is going to be reduced considerably if you keep up the arrogance, since you're scumreading a townie. I want to note though that ASKING to be town leader is really suspicious.

Victor

, I think you're town. If you are, you're the only other one with confirmation this guy is wrong. I'd like to hear your thoughts.

wgeurts, wgeurts, wgeurts

, you're seriously trying to PL this guy while you have a case on someone going? I swear to god, you're playing like a jester...

[Mathdino]

I came to his defence because I've been reading him as town. Furthermore, as I said before, I was having a real hard time seeing a Victor/[insert any of my suspects here] scumteam. I've ISO'd him. If you want to convince me he's scum, then build a case instead of tunneling.

Brother, I'm not responding to your questions because whatever I post on Silver will be much less detailed then the case I wrote on her. I want you to read it. On wgeurts, blindmewithscience pretty much summed up all the reasons I have. My major one was mason-fishing.

Sorry, you want me to lynch someone who's replacing out? There's no pressure left to put on Silver, no posts left to analyse, and thus no lynch to push. I'm very much going to scrutinise her replacement though.

Constantine, the majority of the town is townreading me and a good few are townreading Victor. I, for one, came to my Victor conclusion by looking through his posts, and I'd like to think most people did the same for me and him. Asking us why you're voting for who you are is almost worse than acryon answering people's questions for them. I don't mean to be rude, but back yourself up or get out. I'll respond to any actual reasoning you have to offer.

[Mathdino]

That's the thing. I think you were pushing a hard-bus on silverwolf.

My guts really strong on this one, and so is the lord's.

How fast exactly did you skim through my ISO on her? You've given no reasoning whatsoever that that's the case. I was reading Silver as town because she seemed pretty reasonable but then when I actually decided to ISO everyone, I realised something was off, particularly the sheer number of "I agree"s.
Also, do you really think Silver's reaction is that of scum being bussed by me?

These two statements contradict each other. You're saying you can't pressure silverwolf further, but you're definitely going to pressure his replacement. Why remove your vote, if you simply want to pressure the slot. It doesn't make much sense, does it?

Because I don't know how long the replacement is going to take and I don't want to waste my time or my vote. Took pretty long to replace Undertaker. Also I want to give the replacement a chance, because I want to play fair.
Let's hear your psychological analysis. How do you see me unvoting Silver as a scum move?

Constantine, the majority of the town is townreading me and a good few are townreading Victor

I honestly do not care. The majority opinion is only relevant when we're nearing the deadline.
The objective opinion does not change my read on you. Which to be quite honest, is really strong.
I really want to smite you, so hell yeah I'm going to tunnel. Tunneling a scum read is actually a

good

thing to do.

You misunderstand me; I'm not trying to change your read since you haven't told me where the hell it came from. What I'm trying to say is you're going to have to actually provide reasoning more than "Let's lynch this guy!" if you want anyone to listen to you. And at the moment, you're doing a terrible job of both communicating and scumhunting, with the exception of (I assume) you thinking Silver is scum, in which case congratulations on that.

And no, tunneling a scumread is a terrible thing to do. Blinds you to alternatives and makes it easy to ignore what the town is saying, resulting in bad communication.

And how exactly am I playing like newbscum? No, I have 0 scum meta. I played my first 3 games like shit a year ago so I'd take those with a grain of salt. If you want some basic indication of my style, check out Guardians mafia.

[Mathdino]

He's an alt that made the account to do the whole roleplay schtick. He's not helping the town but a PL really doesn't help us here either.

And he's following the old site meta of everyone being insanely arrogant and telling everyone to sheep them. He's not scum for it.

[Mathdino]

I'm exaggerating of course and that's mostly gone now, but a lot of players were like that if you read older games. I'm assuming Const is one of them; he at least very much reminds me of it.

wgeurts read in a sec.

[Mathdino]

Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

Another one talking about connections in a mason setup. Seriously stop it.

Damn, I didn't notice this, good catch. He even said that we should stop talking about masons when the thing that started that discussion was wgeurts's associative tells.

And damn again, Not_Mafia's statement was like a wham moment for the whole wgeurts case, considering I have been seeing him around the site a bit.
Ugh. I really want to vote Silver's slot again, but I really doubt there'll be a replacement for her anytime soon.

Square one. Wisdom, why are you voting Malakittens? Sell me on this, because I'm not seeing it.

I think the associative stuff Wisdom is pointing out is reason enough to do this, though. It comes from a scum mindset and he doesn't have the excuse of being newbtown.
VOTE: Constantine

Edit: You just reminded me to look over TTH and Victor again. Been ignoring them since I started the Silver case. Will let y'all know if I find anything after I take care of my other games.

[Mathdino]

Constantine, if you know how to catch scum better than me, why did you just quote BMWS instead of me when unvoting me? Are you even reading the thread? *Are you even browsing my past?
Furthermore,

@Mathdino- I've been playing mafia long before I joined this site.

I don't want people to sheep me

, I encourage them to look closely at what I'm saying. Notice I specifically tell people to go back to look at what I'm talking about?

People can choose to sheep me, and I encourage them to do just that

. I feel I know how to catch scum better than most of you, and that shouldn't be taken as arrogance.

Well, I'm looking closely at what you're saying. And every other post you say something hypocritical.

What traits does someone display when they're first time scum? What was odd about RVS? Do you have any desire to push your one-man wagon with any reasoning? I feel like you've read this thread less than everyone else here, and the very fact that you're scumreading me with terrible overconfidence when A. you just proved that you can't distinguish me from BMWS, and B. I know that I'm town, calls all your reads into question. I have 0 reason to listen to posts without reason if you proved yourself incapable of scumhunting. We've all read the thread. We're all on the same page (except Not_Mafia, haha). Now show us how your perspective is better than everyone else's.

And yes, this game is nothing like my meta from... 18 months ago... because I was an idiot back then who almost tunneled a townie to death in LyLo and got myself D1 lynched for outright lying to a town.
I'm kinda trying to change that and communicate better. Would you prefer I play like I used to?

[Mathdino]

Are you even thinking about what you're parroting before you do so?

It's not a good point at all.

Here's the original context of what Constantine said:

The lord gives me the authority to cooperate. Mathdino, patron saint of foolishness, it is you who is arrogant. Arrogant to the passion of christ.
You should be stigmatized for you ignorance. Don't you realize you're the main reason why god wants VictorDeAngelo Dead?
Yes, the lord suspects an unusual early connection and rvs ploy in the works.

If you go back to the first few pages, you'll see that Mathdino and Victor vote each other very early on. Constantine's argument isn't that they're masons, it's that they're scum who are distancing from each other by voting each other.

MathDino being Wisdom's yes-man is really starting to get on my nerves.

Not getting NK'd is vital to mason success. As long as they're town enough to not get lynched, even one of them surviving to the end is incredibly powerful. As long as masons don't outright lynch each other (which will never happen since masons claim), don't assume their strategy. Association analysis should absolutely be restricted to D2.
Yes, I do factcheck before 'parroting'. Someone makes a good point, I'll listen. And if I currently think Wisdom is the towniest person here, then I'm going to be more inclined to listen to him. I never did get the Wisdom case past the wgeurts stuff.

"Doling out a townread" is a funny way to describe reading someone as town.

@Constantine: Well you're pleasant. Appreciating your 'open-mindedness' while going after people for no stated reason.
I'm keeping my vote on you since it's more useful on you. As a general rule I step off replacement wagons until they've been given a chance to speak.
And lol at how you're literally the only one in this thread trying to talk about who's the better player. And lol at talking about PLing wgeurts.

acryon is correct that Constantine trying to point out what's a town tell negates his entire play, since he's clearly willing to follow what he sees as townplay.

Edit: Yum, Mala posting. I'll check out the Silver stuff in a sec. What do you see when you ISO Wisdom?

[Mathdino]

Alright, just read through Silver's scum game and one of her town games for reference (Thanks Mala).
As town, she seems very much focused on getting reads and logicking the hell out of people.
As scum, she seems focused on building cases and her reads contain very little reasoning.
As town, she asks questions to discuss people and formulate reads.
As scum, she asks pointed questions and is generally much more aggressive.

Neither of these games involved her sheeping the entire playerlist though. The sad thing is I'm beginning to see her play this game as consistent with her town meta, but that she was just not being very good at scumhunting.
So we're even more at square one. I'm going to have to do a serious rethinking of my reads here, but the first one is that Constantine is scum.

[Mathdino]

Sidenote: She completely ignored her scum partner that game, but I don't think this is really useful.

[Mathdino]

@Mala - If it wasn't shockingly obvious who the freemason's are already.

Holy hell would you stop with this?

Secondly, I've been scumhunting the entire game. How is continuing to do exactly what I'm doing going to change your mind? Your entire case is based on association.

[Mathdino]

...what the hell just happened...

[Mathdino]

Shit. Never mind. BMWS, don't ask.

[Mathdino]

Okay, that's the first legit case of Victor all game. I'll look over his ISO when I get back and see if I agree.

@Newbie: This post is when Victor started being helpful in my eyes and was what made me change my mind on him.
Not much time but like I said, I'll see if Riddleton's case has any ground later today.

[Mathdino]

Sorry for putting you on hold Riddleton but I wanted to address some of Newbie's analysis first.

On the other hand, the way that he went after Silverwolf did feel just a bit opportunistic. Point #2 of that entire post seems like reaching if acryon was referring to SW trying to get the wagon off of herself. Also, I don't like how he shares that he heavily thinks wgeurts is town but would still be alright with him getting lynched, even though that's not something he would prefer. Looking at it from a scum perspective, it would allow acryon to be okay with a townie getting lynched while being able to fall back on "well, I did say I didn't like the idea of voting him in the first place."

Understand that even a D1 random lynch is better than a no lynch because it gains information, and a policy lynch is certainly better than NL. The lynch is the only power town has. Better use it.

SilverWolf: I can see people's points about her earlier posts mostly agreeing with other people's reasonings, but she did add a bit more her insight into things. ex. (I think she was even actually the first one to specifically mention a slayer's gambit), ex., ex., ex., ex..

On the other hand, her defense against mathdino, acryon, and Wisdom didn't come off too well. Who knows, maybe SW is just an emotional person, but it did not look good for her.

This pinged me; I can't say I'm comfortable with this part of the post. This read seems much more IIOA and summary than any sort of analysis, and really comes across to me as fencesitting. At any point you can make a stance on SilverWolf and it'd still be consistent with this post. Do you

have

a read on her, Newbie?

Here's my other issue with your post, Newbie. You're on the fence with literally almost everyone in this game, it's mostly just "this is a good point, this is a not-so-good point" but I got nothing out of reading that, not even where you stand, which defeats the purpose of reads list. Furthermore I'm not even convinced by anything you've said since you don't have a stance to really argue for. There's MORE than enough information in this game to come up with something but I'm not even sure who you'd be for or against lynching, and we're nearing deadline fast.

Here's another question, since you apparently liked the post where I asked something like this. Who are your top 2 candidates for lynching (outside of policy)? What other suspicions were you talking about here?

Addendum because I don't feel like putting it above: I have a fleeting suspicion that Newbie went with this reads list because she felt compelled to in order to be active and provide thoughts, not because it really helps scumhunt. Reading through her ISO gives me a definite feel of fencesittiness on anyone that she's not currently voting on.
Since we're nearing deadline I'm not going to push a Newbie lynch (and I still have to look over Victor) but I think this stuff should be kept in mind just in case. Very much beginning to rethink my read on her in light of Silver's meta and what people are reading off her AtE stuff.
Oh, yeah,

FoS: her

.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Riddleton's case

At this stage in the game, I townread Wgeurts, Newbie, Constantine and MathDino. Leaning scum on VictorDeAngelo and MalaKittens.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

---

Victor

a) First off, we see Victor is quite persistent that people answer their own questions. The conversation between Victor and Acryon here, especially considering the sarcastic tone of the post, comes off as extremely awkward and strange to me. His defensive tone in this post this post is unwarranted, as he was under no suspicion whatsoever at the time.

b) The post on here reads as Victor trying to easily slide on the low-hanging fruit by voting wgeurts. The vote isn't pressure, but yet he doesn't provide any reasoning to back up his wgeurts vote. I don't like how he pushes a wagon by saying "All Aboard" without providing any reasoning for it. In this post, he outright refuses to provide reasoning, instead just posting fluff that the wagon will lead to 'Jelly and Ice Cream'. He later implies the vote was just a reaction test, which makes no sense whatsoever, and just looks like scum trying to back down from suspicion.

c) Post #65 also takes on a hyper-defensive tone, too. Points such as "I questioned why he wanted that specific information. There is a difference." are devoid of emotion and unlike, more sarcastic and joke-y, earlier play. The comment, 'That's a lot of guesswork there Acryon.', tries to passively shoot down Acryon's disapproval of Victor's play. Post #73 and #80 takes on a similar hyper-defensive tone, also, and continue the trend of one-line replies to humongous quotes, to give the false impression of activity whereas there's very little content in Victor's posts. In #80, as linked, he still refuses to interact with wgeurts.

d) Quite a bit of IIOA in here citing meaningless replies to genuine questions and issues. Posts such as 'I don't like #thispost', etc, are not helpful to the gamestate and are usually seen by scum trying to fit-in to the town, without participating much content. We see Victor declaring Mala, my other main scum suspect, as 'town because of opening posts'. What makes you think this? Can you explain in more detail?

e) In the same post, he still hasn't explained his initial wgeurts vote. Nice try with trying to say 'I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.', but you voted Wgeurts in #53. Obviously, something else has fuelled your reasoning for voting wgeurts, and I don't like you're trying to subtly imply that was your reasoning, especially since the post was made after you voted him in the first place. My theory is he made the wgeurts vote, and just bullshitted his way through it, inventing new reasoning for sticking with it in posts like this. It's a bit of cognitive dissonance. He never has, and I don't think he ever will, explain his

original

reasoning for voting him.

In a nutshell:
-Hyper-defensive play which I don't like
-Dodges his original wgeurts vote, cognitive dissonance with trying to believe it's still a viable wagon by inventing new reasoning for it 'oh this is scummy, yeah wgeurts is scum'. Spoiler alert: wgeurts isn't scum.
-Never really provides any content. His ISO is 90% bullshit.

a (Riddleton discusses Victor's early game). I can't really disagree with this since this is why I suspected Victor was scummy in the first place. I want to note though that sarcasm is not a scumtell.

b (Riddleton discusses Victor voting wgeurts). Here's the problem with this part of your post, Riddleton. Shifty actions and scummy actions are not the same thing. A LOT of people have been shifty this game about explaining some reads and votes. But where's the scum motivation? wgeurts hadn't yet done anything to even warrant voting, so the low-hanging fruit argument doesn't make sense. Why would anyone join him on the wagon unless they wanted to appear scum?
Understand that I don't claim to know Victor's town-motivation here, and I absolutely want him to come back and answer for himself, but the issue is I don't see why scum would pull a move like that in an attempt to actually get wgeurts or any townie lynched.

c (Riddleton discusses wgeurts emotionless hyper-defenciveness). Dammit man, you're running into the same issue. Why would scum go after 'low-hanging fruit' and then refuse to interact with them? If you want to go after players it's easy to get a reaction out of, wouldn't you want to confront them head-on like the entire town did earlier?
However, I can agree with the defenciveness, but just a quick skim of Victor's meta shows that his posting style is a nulltell for him. He does the annoying 'one line response to huge quotes' as scum and town. Are some of his posts useless? Yes. Are they annoying to interact with? Yes. Scum? I'm not sold on this point at all.

d (Riddleton discusses Victor's IIoA). I don't understand how you view that post as BS or not contributing. He at the very least discusses blindmewithscience with a different perspective. I won't answer for him when it comes to Mala, however, but this post comes across to me as town trying to keep up with the game and consolidating thoughts so far. Which is basically like how blindme's been playing.

e (Riddleton discusses Victor's wgeurts vote). I hate to say this Riddleton but it looks like you're pulling a potential Victor story out of your ass. You assume that because Victor posted things he didn't like about wgeurts in his catchup post, he's trying to justify a vote several pages prior. Isn't it possible that wgeurts was just the scummiest damn player in the game at that point? I mean literally the only reason I'm backing off of him is because there's no way wgeurts is faking newbtown across the entire site.

In a nutshell:
-His play is a nulltell based on a quick skim of his meta
-Yes. He dodged. But get in his mind. What was scum-Victor's original plan, do you think? You seem to have more of a theory on how he covered up the initial vote than the vote itself.
-"His ISO is 90% bullshit" <-- This is simply not true. I know Riddleton already did but I'm asking other players to look through his ISO, and tell me if the 2nd half really looks like bullshit.

That said. I want Victor to answer, because I'm not sure myself of the town motivation of his original wgeurts vote. Victor is a nullread until he answers. However, I honestly think that and his tone in his first 4 or so posts are the only legitimate parts of Riddleton's case.

My vote stands.

[Mathdino]

Here are actual scum tells
- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

- Nope, people do that all the time as newbtown, I think I almost got lynched for it once.
- Playstyle.
- Agreed.
- Playstyle. I'm just going to hope you never play with mastin.
- Nope.

I find this all VERY interesting considering this post you made earlier, Constantine. I also appreciate how you already ruled out contradictions as a scumtell right before contradicting yourself. To those too lazy to click the link, Constantine says that "many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do" and that that's not true, that you have to put yourself in people's shoes and psychologically analyse them. I assume by this he means analyse whether what they do has town motivation or scum motivation.

It's funny how at odds that is with even considering the notion that there ARE scumtells, and that townies don't do these things all the time.

[Mathdino]

Not that I don't agree with it, but just for the record and because I don't want to make assumptions, can you briefly list the reasons for your vote real quick?

[Mathdino]

I'll get back to you on the Victor meta analysis later; my URL was to illustrate how he likes to post one line responses to tons of quotes and also has a very unemotional tone. Didn't scan for defenciveness.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on d, I think. I see a possible town standpoint there, you see a scum one.
We're also going to have to disagree on wgeurts; I'm not repeating the case on him because I don't want to lynch him, but it's very very hard to argue he hasn't at the

very least

been scummy, even if town. If you want to criticise Victor for finding wgeurts scummy, criticise everyone else on that wagon.

Now, that said, you're running into the same problem that you failed to address; where's the scum motivation in Victor's actions? I think it's entirely possible Victor justified his vote on wgeurts because "he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". But isn't it a TOWN thing to want to believe something? Scum already know.

I'm extremely suspicious of what I interpret as a scumslip from Riddleton. I think Riddleton knows Victor is town and possibly built this case on what he found scummy while following the game. Unfortunate, I had high hopes for Silver's slot.

unFoS: Newbie

FoS: this guy

Would be willing to lynch either Constantine or Riddleton as a result.

Edit: That's the word I forgot. The fox in your link, along with Victor, have cases of tunnel vision.

[Mathdino]

Comes from here, which was a response to Newbie's reads which turned into a mini-case on her. However it's incredibly unlikely to me that Newbie and Silver's slot are both scum, thus my unFoSing.

The scumslip is in that a scum would never "want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". Because scum would already KNOW the wagon they're pushing is incorrect. I find it hard to believe Riddleton would say something like that while legitimately believing Victor is scum.
I think Riddleton is scum and accidentally confirmed both Victor and wgeurts as town.

[Mathdino]

As a clarification just in case people still don't get it, I'd be fine if Riddleton was like "Victor is making up reasons to lynch wgeurts because he wants people to think the wagon he started is still correct". But no, Riddleton psychoanalysed Victor and it came out saying Victor is trying to convince himself of something. Which only town does.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino, acryon, thoughts?

I don't know. I appreciate the way Riddleton responded to the 'scumslip', and it's probably the towniest possible defence to something like that, but I can sorta see where you're coming from with Constantine defending. At the end of the day, considering all of SilverWolf's baggage and how close we are to deadline, I'm still confident in a Riddleton lynch.

Ehh. I mean it is certainly something to consider post-flip, but right now it's all speculation so it isn't really worth talking about IMO.

I put this on the quote list so I can agree with it, really. But that said, what Wisdom said helps decide what gives us more info...

No. I'm talking about Victor wagon. The way he is tunneling on Victor does not make sense given he apparently does consider how scummy actions can have come from town.

Ok, that does make a little more sense, but I still think that Constantine is by far the better lynch given the reasons I explained in my last couple posts. The Constantine case doesn't get much if anything from a Riddleton flip. The Riddleton case would gain quite a bit from a Constantine flip. Given the thought that both could be scum, it makes more sense to go for Constantine today.

And we should note that a Riddleton flip gives us info on Newbie, Victor, wgeurts, and Wisdom.
A Constantine flip does indeed give info on Riddleton, along with wgeurts, and possibly Victor and myself.
Riddleton flip gives us more but I'm still more confident in a Constantine one. Time to start canvassing I guess. This is for everyone who's not currently voting Constantine.

TTH

townreads both Constantine and Riddleton.

Newbie, need to know ASAP which of the following you'd be willing to lynch: Constantine, Riddleton, Victor.

I don't know what the hell

Not_Mafia

's doing but considering activity levels I don't think he can help here.

Malakittens, need to know your thoughts on Constantine and Riddleton.

You don't look willing to lynch Victor.

Victor

is unknown.

Constantine

is willing to lynch Riddleton.

Riddleton

is unwilling to lynch Constantine.

So the best shot we've got for a lynch right now is Newbie and Victor joining the Constantine wagon, or proving that we all have activity levels that'd allow for a shot at Riddleton.

Please state whether you'll be capable and willing to lynch Riddleton in the next 37 hours.

I would be.

[Mathdino]

I'm going to be active right up to the deadline, so count me on the Constantine wagon if that gets enough momentum. Atm I think Riddleton is a more likely lynch. I'd recommend anyone currently voting Victor to switch to one of the two, since the Victor wagon is incredibly unlikely at this rate.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

Well this'll be fun.

The "case" on wgeurts is and was always weak. It's

your opinion

that he was always scummy. Your efforts to present it as some kind of objective, indisputable fact notwithstanding, it's an opinion. I disagree, and apparently Riddleton does too. There's a clear reason why scum would want to ramrod a weak case on (what did you call it?) "lynchbait." The "mason fishing" was always bogus. So was the hoopla surrounding his self-vote and how somehow the timing wasn't right or some such nonsense.

Is it not your

opinion

that the case on wgeurts was bogus? Do I really need to explain how asking the masons to claim is scummy? You don't get to reject someone else's reality by calling it opinion and substituting your own your own.

Now that I think of it, I think the Silver Wolf push was bad and opportunistic, too. There was this overall sentiment that Silver Wolf was somehow defending herself "badly." I'm not going to go and pull quotes right now, but I do remember Newbie and acryon saying something to that effect. Why is that? She got emotional and blew up at her accuser, but how that's somehow "bad" was never explained in any satisfactory way. Victor was right there to heap suspicion on her when she wasn't very popular. blindmewithscience is another person who Victor was lumping suspicion on for tenuous reasons. Post 356, he linked us to some blindmewithscience post and inexplicably, a scumread comes out of the black box. Why? We don't know, it's apparently left up to the imagination.

In this topic: More people blaming Wisdom for things that I've done. I'm getting a little uncomfortable with people refusing to take me on when a large number of things they accuse Wisdom of are exactly what I've been doing as well, including but not limited to the wgeurts tunneling, the SilverWolf pushing, and "making a mad dash to make sure the lynch is on anyone but Victor".
Regardless, the things you're suspecting Victor of here are equally tenuous. Victor going after Silver after her blowup is definitely not a scumtell (if anything, it's null), and I'm not seeing the scum motivation behind that read of blindme.

Somehow, having a townread on one person and a scumread on someone else is a scumtell? That doesn't even sound right.
What does Riddleton's analysis of Constantine and Victor have to do with each other? What's the relationship? He has to explicitly weigh out everything? Or was there something else you expected out of Riddleton's Victor case that was absent?

No, having a townread on someone doing the exact same thing as your scumread is scummy. Read the thread.

This is more mudslinging and strawmanning. acryon was arguing against the policy lynch (that's what "PL" stands for, correct?), which is a perfectly reasonable position to take. And how would a changing read necessarily make him scum, anyway?

This is more mudslinging and strawmanning. Since when does questioning someone mean you think they're scum?

At this point, I hope it's becoming clear that TTH has been tunneling Wisdom all game for reasons that relate far more to playstyle than actual scumminess, and that the majority of this case relies on the fact that Wisdom being scum isn't INconsistent with his play, along with the fact that TTH simply disagrees with Wisdom on a number of points.
Newsflash: Being wrong in your eyes doesn't make someone scum.

[Mathdino]

I was prepared to vote Victor after I saw Riddleton's case and that a few people agreed with him.

Then I read the case. It sucks. I'm hanging on to my prior townread on Victor.

[Mathdino]

^This is the same reason wisdom just scum read riddleton.
Still think you, victor, and silverwolve's replacement are scum.
That hasn't changed at all since I started this joke of a game.

I'm not scumreading Riddleton because his case sucks. I'm scumreading him mostly due to the scumslip and partially due to his defending you.

Look guys, it really doesn't look like a Victor or Constantine lynch is happening. Everyone who's scumreading Victor is already voting him, and the same happened with Constantine.

Let's switch to Riddleton before the deadline; we have enough support from both wagons.
Particularly paging

Newbie, Not_Mafia, Constantine, acryon, BMWS

.

[Mathdino]

Please read this for more information. Victor made a baseless vote against Wgeurts, he invented new reasoning to support his fallacious claim as he goes along, as he doesn't want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect.

The scumslip is in that a scum would never "want to believe the wagon he's trying to push is incorrect". Because scum would already KNOW the wagon they're pushing is incorrect. I find it hard to believe Riddleton would say something like that while legitimately believing Victor is scum.
I think Riddleton is scum and accidentally confirmed both Victor and wgeurts as town.

[Mathdino]

Not enough to save him from his predecessor, no, and I'm also seeing some merit in the point with Riddleton defending Const.
The scumslip was if anything the straw that broke the camel's back. Eh, more like the 2 kg weight, but whatever.

Regardless, it's the best chance we have of a lynch hitting scum, IMO. I like to temporarily give the benefit of the doubt to replacements, but BMWS, lemme ask you:

Given all that we suspected SilverWolf for, has Riddleton

redeemed

his slot sufficiently to warrant not voting him this close to the deadline?

If the answer is no, I'd recommend switching your vote in the next 24 hours.

[Mathdino]

To clarify, I mean that Riddleton wagon is
A. The best chance we have of a lynch actually going through and
B. The best chance of a completed wagon hitting scum.

There's just not enough momentum for Constantine.

[Mathdino]

The only way we can get a Constantine lynch:

A. Both Victor and Mala decide to vote him, or
B. Someone sucks it up and hammers Constantine just to avoid a NL. Not preferable. At all.

I very much doubt Victor will be active enough for A to be an option. So yeah, it's gonna be between Riddleton and Victor.

[Mathdino]

1. Mathdino
2. Wisdom
3. Newbie
4. acryon
5. Constantine
6. Not_Mafia (if he's active)

Leaving BMWS, wgeurts, Victor, and Malakittens.
This lynch can happen, we just need the activity levels for it. I trust you'll be on again a few times before the deadline just in case, acryon.

Edit: Goddammit TTH. Okay.

Can you expand on your thoughts/reads on Constantine and Riddleton?

[Mathdino]

Dammiiiiit. Riddleton's last post is convincing enough. I'm going to eat you for that post if you end up being scum, Riddleton.

UNVOTE: Riddleton
VOTE: Constantine

If Wisdom and wgeurts switch to Constantine we're at L-1. At which point it's going to be up to Victor, TTH, and Malakittens.

[Mathdino]

I should have reads by the morning, still need to look over the Riddlestone/Constantine slot and my body thinks it's later than it is (thanks daylight savings). Full reread should be no later than early morning since I don't have much on at work right now (the one solitary benefit of jury service).

FFS, man, we have 16 friggin hours in the deadline. I'm declaring intent to hammer in 15 hours if you don't have any last words. If you're town, we need your voice here.

[Mathdino]

Oh fuck wgeurts is gonna be sleeping before the deadline. I'm just gonna pray Victor and TTH decide to lynch Constantine.

Mod, any chance of a deadline extension due to FinnLaw replacing out? We've lost a potential vote.

[Mathdino]

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

Thy Second Commandment in the Ten Commandments of Constantine's Apocrypha
- That which is policy lynch, is scummy lynch

Give me about 10-20 minutes, TTH, I've got a long Constantine case coming up in another tab just for you.

[Mathdino]

Holy hell this is a long case. To sum it up, Constantine has been hypocritical since the game began, has been running shady 'cases' and is particularly fond of discrediting everyone, even asking to be town leader. Also, his actions do not match his intentions. Ready? Okay. Here we go:

Spoiler: This is for you, TTH; I hope it's worth it (to everyone else, I do not blame you if you don't read this)

^Sing us another jingle king of jesters.

You really are asking to be PL'd

, you know that, right?

Contradictions aren't an allignment tell.

I've said it before and will say it again.

I'm all up for PLing this guy though, he will be a nightmare to read and is therefore dangerous.

Thy Second Commandment in the Ten Commandments of Constantine's Apocrypha
-

That which is policy lynch, is scummy lynch

Hypocrisy and unfair discrediting. Also, I put this quote first because I want you to really remember what Constantine said in the underline.

The lord has one requisite for this game,

DO NOT MENTION MASONS

I didn't even bold this one.

This is one of the rare game set-up's where

town has a huge advantage over a 2-3 man scum team

. Don't waste it.

TTH, just to save you some breath,

the freemason alliance is pretty clear if it wasn't already

. Just stop talking about it.

Screw Freemasons, they're a shitty and absolutely worthless role

, but it is pretty much the only one town has.

While the idea is obviously out of place, I do understand where he's coming from.

Masons aren't a very powerful role

, unless they are trying to confirm each other.
The whole act of confirming is only necessary when a mason is being targeted for lynching.

It's also not unlikely Wguert's is a mason by using "mason psychology" so many times.

Contradictions. See my post 225, which there still has not been a response to.

That isn't a scum tell. The only time a contradiction is scummy, is when something is said contrary to an action undertaken.

This is a fun part.
1. Constantine tells everyone the town has a huge advantage due to the masons, and then complains about how useless and shitty the mason role is.
2. Constantine commands everyone to stop talking about masons, then proceeds to outright analyse wgeurts for masonness and told Mala later on (I don't feel like finding the post) that the mason alliance is incredibly obvious. Of course, he gets a free pass because by this point, he's switched to thinking masons are useless, so who cares if they're outed, right?

Constantine and acryon, can you sincerely defend your Wisdom townread?

That isn't how mafia works, child. It is you who must prove he's scum.

The problem is that many egotistical souls think they know what scum look like, and what scum do.
Lord only knows this isn't the truth.

Mafia is a game of psychological analysis. Like any game where someone has something to veil, the only way to know someone is scum is to trust in your...

Game Theory and Social Theory

Is wisdom someone who conveys the traits of an exemplary soldier of god? No, he really doesn't, but nothing he's done has really been outside what I would expect from a human, who adhere's to basic principals in human nature.

Try to walk in wisdom's shoes. If you can imagine one possible scenario where he could of said something as a townie with nothing to hide, then you're really understanding how this game is played

.

I will submit, I haven't read wisdom's ISO

I bolded this part just to lol at it xD

, and as a patient servant of our lord, I have no trouble doing that. I just haven't found anything strikingly odd from what I have read.

Here are

actual scum tells

- Saying what "Scum" would do a lot
- When tunneled, responding back with questions and not statements
- Voting one way but reading another
- Compensating with Large Blocks of Text (This is called domination)
- Lurking

Okay, so Constantine starts off okayish, by saying a lot of arrogant people think that they know 'what scum do' (scumtells), and that you have to put yourself in the mind of the person you're analysing (in other words, look for motivations) in order to read them. Then, as shown above these quotes and in the last one, he proceeds to give authoritative judgments on what's a scumtell and what's not.
What?
The funny thing, is almost every scumtell he's said is wrong, but he appears to be tailoring what he calls a scumtell to both his scumspects and himself. Consider: he points out that contradictions aren't a scumtell right before he contradicts himself. His scumtell of 'domination' (which is really just activity) applies to me, as does responding back to Constantine's tunneling of me with questions and not statements (this also applies to Victor). What Constantine is doing is trying to be town leader (he literally said authority figures are how you catch scum) and pulling his apparent experience to set up mislynches and give himself a free pass.

^Seriously,

none of this dodging the question bullshit? Everyone needs to confess their reads to the lord. Everyone.
Jesus and I are only interested in the read of the person you want to lynch.

Good, now explain your vote

Why?

The lord isn't an open book

. Now to look for some metaphor to equate my feelings????

I don't really think I need to explain this. He tries and fails to strongarm reads out of people at which point he absolutely refuses to give any reads of his own.

I usually don't explain my reads or thoughts until many questions have been asked

. Most people on this site suck at playing mafia, or

let their ego's drive their decision making

Again, bolded just for lulz

.

Everyone's so sure that they know who scum is, that no one's willing to cooperate.

I would like to cooperate, and I would like to win this game. Please help me do that.

If you want my statement, you're going to need to give it some time. Lord know's we have plenty of it. I always like seeing what others think of my vote

before

I tell them why I chose it. It really defeats the purpose to feed reasoning scum can easily refute. Encouraging people to think for themselves goes a mile longer than me telling them why to follow my lead.
With that said,

why do you think I might be scum reading him

?

Didn't bold this.

God grace's to you, and hopefully you understand my position better.

And this quote is all kinds of scummy; he replaces into a game, votes someone, refuses to give reads, and asks everyone else to form his case for him when he's clearly read the least or near the least out of all players. Also, he complains about everyone thinking they know who scum is when he's been tunneling the same 3 players all game.

I really want to smite you, so hell yeah I'm going to tunnel.

Tunneling a scum read is actually a

good

thing to do.

Please take a leap of faith with me here guy's. I'm pretty sure I know what I'm talking about
VOTE: Mathdino

Ha. Ha ha ha. Complains about everyone tunneling while he tunnels one of the most active players in the game for

no. Goddamn. Reason.

Not ONCE did he explain why he thinks I'm scum past possible association with Victor, and he flat out admits that he just wants me out of the game. Gee, I wonder why.
And then he says that tunneling a scumread is a good thing after calling multiple people out on it in his ISO. I don't have the time nor the effort to go through it to point it out, but take a look if you're so inclined, TTH. I recall him pointing out people tunneling Wisdom and wgeurts multiple times.

^This is the same reason wisdom just scum read riddleton.
Still think you, victor, and silverwolve's replacement are scum.
That hasn't changed at all since I started this joke of a game.

@Mala -

If it wasn't shockingly obvious who the freemason's are already

Bolded because this is the mason stuff I was talking about earlier.

.

Holy hell would you stop with this?

Secondly, I've been scumhunting the entire game. How is continuing to do exactly what I'm doing going to change your mind? Your entire case is based on association.

Actually my case on you and Victor is based off of intent, not association

. My read on silver was association, that I'll concede.
If I'm scum reading you and victor, and you're actually contributing on a regular basis, by policy I would prefer to lynch victor.

I'm just bewildered that he's been given a free pass on this for so long. I can't prove a negative with this case, but look through his ISO and show me ONE (1) reason he's had for voting me that doesn't have to do with association. Constantine has consistently dodged questions on his baseless tunneling, while complaining about the town to put himself on a pedestal. At this point I honestly think he replaced into the game, read the thread, and decided to try to lynch who he thought was the towniest person in order to get a reaction of some kind.

I want to see this coming from a town perspective. I really do. But the fact that he's provided ZERO (0) reasoning for the majority of his claims even when asked makes them look like they came out of thin air. This isn't something arrogant town does, TTH. Arrogant town at least explains their reads and proceeds to shit on everyone for not seeing things the same way they do. Constantine just dodged questions long enough for people to accept that his reads came from somewhere.

And yes, guys, contradictions ARE scummy when there's a scum motivation to them.

[Mathdino]

If you're town, your sarcasm is not appreciated. I wrote that case specifically because TTH asked, not because I don't think you'll be lynched before the deadline.

Your offence sucks and your defence sucks. You've given none of either. All you've given this game is hollow appeal to authority and strongarming.

If you're town, this lynch is on you, as is true for ANY mislynch target. If you're scum, well, thanks for the easy D1.

[Mathdino]

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

Newbie, can you do this maybe now? Ish? You've given no reasons for the wagons you're willing to be on; I mean at least we have arguments from TTH and Riddleton.
If Const flips scum, I'm going to be a lil suspish here.

[Mathdino]

Oh fuck you've gotta be kidding me. Victor hasn't even given us last words.

If Victor flips town and I die, please lynch Malakittens tomorrow. Would also recommend Constantine.

[Mathdino]

Nope. Nope nope nope nope.
VOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Malakittens
VOTE: Malakittens

[Mathdino]

"better than a NL" - Literally the worst reason to vote someone

Do you REALLY think any of us would've taken a NL over a Victor lynch? Wisdom even said he'd've been willing to vote himself over NL.

Your vote was unnecessary and unwarranted. Have you even looked over the Constantine case? The Riddleton case?

Edit: If you hammered Victor an hour to the deadline I wouldn't care. But Victor's last reads are absolutely vital after we get his flip. As of now this flip gives us EXTREMELY little information.

[Mathdino]

Wisdom

, I need your read on Mala ASAP before nightfall if you read this.

[Mathdino]

SCtH: I have to find strength to really read through his posts. I'll do his later.

Newbie, can you do this maybe now? Ish? You've given no reasons for the wagons you're willing to be on; I mean at least we have arguments from TTH and Riddleton.
If Const flips scum, I'm going to be a lil suspish here.

I think it's weird how

apathetic

Victor seems to be towards being almost lynched, especially when the deadline is almost here. I want to see what he has to say after reading up (I think there's enough time until the deadline for that.). I also think the case against him holds more ground than the case against Constantine.

I think it's weird how I asked you to look over Constantine's posts and you decided to talk about Victor instead.

I looked at your ISO and you've had 0 thoughts on Constantine this game. Do you plan on following through with reading through his posts?

At this point I'm just gonna ask you to read/skim my case, haha.

[Mathdino]

Thank you Newbie.

I'll check out your Constantine case now.

Riddleton, you also never followed through on this.

[Mathdino]

Mala may have a point, if I'm putting on my "Victor-is-scum" glasses.

Here's an ISO of Victor and Newbie.
Note that they had 0 direct interaction, the only indirect interaction at the very start was Victor being all "Mathdino y u ask Newbie for meta". Now, Newbie didn't really do anything about that, but I can't blame her for that.

However, this is the first time Newbie references Victor. (#137) She claims she was suspicious of him in order to prove she's scumhunting to wgeurts, but this is only after the fact, and he's apparently fine in her book now.

#213, Victor agrees with Newbie. Admittedly not too major, but we're being exhaustive here.

#702, Newbie's reads list. To quote Newbie, "[Victor's] early questioning of mathdino was odd, but he had a good point." Eh, not terribly in depth but okay.

#825, BAM, Newbie is suddenly willing to lynch Victor without any explanation and while apparently townreading Victor. I said that one of Constantine's 'scumtells' (I'd prefer to call them scummy actions) is correct, and that's voting one way and reading another. Here's Newbie's votepost. No explanation.

#897, but wait, there's more! Newbie for the first time provides a reason to suspect Victor (while she's actually suspecting him)... except these reasons formulated when Victor posted after she voted. She provided a reason to keep her vote on him, but not why she voted him.

Newbie's presence on the Victor wagon is overall fairly suspicious and can very well be taken as bussing.

[Mathdino]

Lastly, Newbie admits that Victor was likely to just run up the time, but still doesn't support Mala's hammering him. She seems so certain after her votepost that Victor's scum, but also very much wanting to give him a voice in the matter.

[Mathdino]

Well you didn't post much after your reads list, except in defending yourself against my suspicions of said reads list. So nowhere, technically.

Occurs to me that the fact that of all game events occurring you only responded to direct questioning reads fairly defencive. You saying you'd be willing to lynch Victor/Riddleton was prompted by me. I'm not really sure what prompted the vote itself, but the way that page reads makes me think TTH convinced you to do it.

I just don't understand why you didn't vote him the moment I asked who you want to lynch.

[Mathdino]

That made almost no sense. Revision:
Something occurred to me.
Many game events were occurring after your reads list.
Both your posts before your vote were directly prompted by me.
They had little to nothing to do with the rest of the things that were occurring.
This reads as strangely defencive.

[Mathdino]

Finally. So I did this right before the mod locked the thread, coloured it afterwards. Will analyse based on NK flip in a sec.

Spoiler: VC IIoA

Structure:
[Voter] -> [Votee], [number of votes on Votee], [stated reason if any (I'll put a link if there's a bunch of reasoning)]
[Unvoter] XX [Unvotee], [number of votes on Unvotee], [stated reason if any]

acryon

->

Victor

, 1, RV (later says vote stands due to Victor's questioning/defending)

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, RV

Victor

->

Mathdino

, 1, RV

BMWS

->

TTH

, 1, RV

Wisdom

->

NM

, 1, RV

SilverWolf

->

Mathdino

, 2, RV/jokingly OMGUS

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, RV

Wisdom

XX

NM

, 0

Wisdom

->

Mathdino

, 3, "I like wagons"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, "this is not sitting well with me"

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 1, "it's all a reaction test"/"there's nothing to gain here"

Victor

XX

Mathdino

, 2

Victor

->

wgeurts

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

Victor

, 2, asking suspicious questions

TTH

->

Wisdom

, 2, "Not_Mafia and Wisdom have both telegraphed scumreads on Victor, but they seem a lot more guarded about it"

SilverWolf

XX

Mathdino

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Victor

, 3, "making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone"

Malakittens

XX

Wisdom

, 1

Malakittens

->

acryon

, 1, "I don't like Acyron injecting here"/forced looking posts

Newbie

->

wgeurts

, 2, reaction testing and general sketchiness

wgeurts

->

Newbie

, 1, "her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted"

Mathdino

XX

Victor

, 2

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 3, mason fishing

BMWS

XX

TTH

, 0

BMWS

->

wgeurts

, 4, "to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations"

wgeurts

XX

Newbie

wgeurts

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info"

wgeurts

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "As requested"

Wisdom

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Wisdom

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I don't like this quick recovery"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, =24679#p6313218]Here's the votepost and here's his case later on

SilverWolf

XX

Victor

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Wisdom

, 3, "You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch"

Newbie

XX

wgeurts

, 4

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "I actually agree with the case [wgeurts] made against you"

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's the context but just read my case if you wanna know

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 4, SilverWolf descended to 2nd on my scumlist

acryon

XX

Victor

, 0

acryon

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's his case and here's another

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 2, I didn't like her reaction to me/Wisdom/acryon

Malakittens

XX

acryon

, 0, "I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah..."

Constantine

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf/Riddleton

, 1, she was getting replaced

Constantine

XX

Victor

, 0, no stated reason

NM

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, thinks I'm scum with Victor

BMWS

XX

wgeurts

, 2

BMWS

->

Constantine

, 1 "I don't like you, Constantine

Wisdom

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 1, "I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads."

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, pointing out associations

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "Emotion is a town tell"

Constantine

->

Victor

, 2, no stated reason

TTH

XX

Wisdom

, 3, confusion

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 2

wgeurts

->

Constantine

, 3, "for all these comtradictions"

TTH

->

Victor

, 3, PoE and looking through ISO

TTH

XX

Victor

, 2, "I'm having a reference frame crisis."

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 1, let's not talk about this

Riddleton

XX

Wisdom

, 0

Riddleton

->

Victor

, 3, muddafuckin' case

TTH

->

Victor

, 4, here ya go

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, "bullshit about scumtells"

acryon

XX

Riddleton

, 0

acryon

->

Constantine

, 5, mini case

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 4

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, "more likely lynch"

Newbie

->

Victor

, 5, reasons above

Wisdom

XX

Constantine

, 3

Wisdom

->

Riddleton

, 2, probably same as me

wgeurts

XX

Constantine

, 2

wgeurts

->

Victor

, 6, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, "Riddleton's last post is convincing enough"

Wisdom

XX

Riddleton

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, presumably to get a lynch

Malakittens

->

Victor

, 7, HAMMERTIME

[Mathdino]

Alright, so let's see. In my experience, scum rarely vote each other in RVS (rarely, not never), and acryon's behaviour toward Victor this game reads very townish. acryon joins the townlist.
wgeurts also practically confirmed town, Victor literally just said "I have a new person I want wagon".

Victorscum in Austin Powers Mafia. His scumbuddies were Kthxbye and shos. Note that when he decides to bus shos, he does provide reasons rather than a naked vote. On the other hand, he votes Psyche with extremely little reasoning, same with CC. His scumcases as scum are much more fleshed out than his towncases.

This is Victorscum in Newbie 1517 in which his scumbuddy was TSO who replaced out and became Mala. He displays similar nonchalance about being at L-1, however in this case a lot of it is directed at TSO. He also busses his teammate almost off the bat when he replaces in, again providing more reasoning and interaction than with people he knows are town.

Lastly, we have this game, in which his scumbuddy is vonflare. ONCE AGAIN, his 2nd or 3rd vote is bussing his scumbuddy after directly interacting with him.

What's this tell us? The issue this game is Victor did comparatively little voting. However we do know that his scumbuddy bussing usually happens after interacting with them a bit, and that just didn't happen with wgeurts.

Edit: Written as of #956.

[Mathdino]

Here's where the meat of our Victor analysis is going to be.

Well Newbie, that explains your wallposting, haha. Are there any records left of one of your scum games and town games?

Hey Math, why so keen to get some early meta off Newbie?

I'm not sure what the problem is. I would think getting meta would be sharing useful information. I intend to look at meta of the players here. So even though you said you wanted to know why mathdino wanted that particular info. I guess I fail to see the problem with this and your explanation really didn't help me much. You are making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone. It's possible you just want to question Mathdino like you said, but this seems an odd thing to question him about. This is something else I am taking note of. FoS VictorDeAngelo

So do a lot of players, but I was wondering why he was looking to get meta off that player so early on. Often people looking for meta in the first few pages would have a particular reason, and I wanted to know his.

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

Does not read as distancing, reads more like trying to appeal to Mala to keep Victor around.

I don't like Wguerts 105. This post doesn't fit the play at all.

As said, not bussing. 0 interaction with wgeurts.

Nor do I like Wisdom's 108 - particularly since he accused me of reaching and asking loaded questions earlier.

I like both the vote and point from Newbie in 124.

Awful rvs in 127.

@TTH are you really implying in 130 it's a waste time asking for reasoning because if a player is scum they will simply lie or have I misread that?

132 & 134 (this should really be one post anyhow ) Asks to meta read to help players understand his style and then tells everyone to ignore Newbie's meta because "the fact he's provided it probaly means he's aware of it and able to manipulate it."

If Wguerts is scum I can see Silverwolf being scum with him for 135.

Aha, okay. In one of his games he did exactly this. "If [townplayer] is scum, I can see [my scumbuddy] being scum with him." Not making me feel more comfortable about Riddleton.

Is the reason this game is so many pages because wgeurts is multiposting. Actually wgeuers and Newbie. Any chance we can keep it to one post at a time folks?

Blindmewithscience is sitting back too much with this post. Especially considering it's his only one outside of rvs.

Not bussing.

I still like my vote on Wguerts, but I really wish I had a second one for blindmewithscience. Not too sure on anyone else right now. A few players on the list need to show still so we'll see.

And like that - I am gone.

[Mathdino]

Everyone... I started the wagon, based on my gut. Give me the decency of continuing our assault on the forces of evil.
I'm all for lynching the last people on the wagon now, but it was a common policy on my first site to lynch people off the wagon, as you get a better probability of hitting scum.

Acyron and Mathdino's reactionary defense makes a lot more sense. I really have no clue which of the two is scum, but mathdino seems like a cool guy, so we'll let him live for now.

Constantine, lemme drop an anvil on you.

This is not your site.

Scum busses like hell on this site, and "on the wagon" and "off the wagon" are TERRIBLE reasons for reads. You have to look at people's individual reasons for being on or off.
Can someone find me an acryon scum game or two please?

scum rarely vote each other in RVS

This is false. If you wish, I can provide many games in which scum vote each other in RVS. They do this so they can avoid interacting with the town.

It's

rare

. I'm not saying it doesn't happen, but it's absolutely true that it NEVER happens for Victor. I think generally the site seems to swing between scum voting each other in RVS as distancing, and not voting each other so as to not present an association.

[Mathdino]

For chrissake people, Constantine barrels into D2 and manages to have an even bigger superiority complex than before. He's still yet to provide ANY reasoning for his votes.
I really do love how he uses being right on Victor to justify being right on me. That kind of reasoning SCREAMS bussing to me. He waffled back and forth on me D1 to show that he was comfortable lynching me, but he knows that Victor was much more likely to get traction.

acryon reads insanely town based on his interaction with Victor. Wisdom reads town in general. I agree on Newbie.

[Mathdino]

As a policy, I'm lynching off the wagon today, but I want to know why riddleton is scum reading

That which is policy lynch is scummy lynch.

Stop hyperposting and I'll come up with a town-acryon case and a Newbie case. For now I'll try to keep up with the thread and

VOTE: Constantine

[Mathdino]

Constantine, you really think I'm policy voting you?

I'm voting you because you're trying to use being right on Victor to justify being right on me, when you've still provided no non-associative reasoning and haven't defended yourself AT ALL this game. You told me that your first vote on me was based off of intent and not association.

So follow through.

[Mathdino]

The history of Victor's wagon:

acryon, Mathdino, SilverWolf/Riddleton (using our reasoning), Mathdino unvotes, SilverWolf unvotes, acryon unvotes, Constantine, Constantine unvotes, Not_Mafia, Constantine, TTH, TTH unvotes, Riddleton, TTH, Newbie, wgeurts, Malakittens.

Malakittens is town. I didn't know this until nightfall, but she was scum with Victor the game where he didn't care about L-1 and almost definitely picked up on his nonchalance. If she was scum and wanted to bus him, I'd have thought she'd do it earlier. Also Victor's interactions with her sound like sucking up.
wgeurts is confirmed town based on Victor's interactions with him, or lack thereof.
From my perspective, I'm town and TTH is unquestionably town.

I think the scum on the wagon are in {SilverWolf/Riddleton, Constantine, Newbie}. SilverWolf due to her initial reaction to my and acryon's suspicions. Constantine due to how he's trying to use his being right today, and of how incredibly sure he was about Victor without being able to explain why. Newbie, well, I explained that in twilight and I'll explain it again once this thread calms down.

Edit: Okay you've gotta be kidding me. Game's moving insanely fast already, not fluffposting would be appreciated

[Mathdino]

@Everyone

: Who would you want to lynch if not wgeurts or Wisdom? What are your thoughts on SilverWolf? (free pass on sheeping the above case; I think I kinda exhausted everything that can be said about her)

I can see Silverwolf as scum if Wgeurtes flips scum. But I'd rather lynch Wguertes first.

Red flag again; "I can see [scumbuddy] as scum if [townperson] is scum."

301 - Furthermore if Wisdom is town, I'm can see Silverwolf being scum after reading this.

Ooh, didn't catch this at first. Might have to rethink my read on Wisdom. However, I think it's notable that Victor rarely includes both his scumbuddies in the same sentence. I don't quite know what to make of this yet.

302 - Sure newbscum would do this. Particular since the scum don't have daychat so Wgeuertes has not had any opportunity to talk with his scumbuddies yet.

Yeeeeep wgeurts is town.

310 - Ok, I can totally see blindmewithscience as scum with Wgeurtes after this post. If Wgeurtes flips scum then he should be tomorrows flip. And if it is Wguetes + blindmewithscience then it's probably means it's not Silverwolf based on the second half of this post.

This seems to be what Mala caught. I think it's notable that he pointed out Silver/wgeurts first, however, and followed up with BMWS/wgeurts. Honestly, I'm more inclined to think of the first as deliberate linking and the latter as an afterthought. Not changing my read on BMWS.

325 - So you now want to wait and see more from Wgeurtes before making a decsion, but you were happily on his wagon a couple of days ago. I also don't like the way he's trying to band people together.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

Sucks up to Mala and then mudslings her. Mala's town.

@Reinoe

- Any news on the Undertaker's replacement yet?

[Mathdino]

Do I detect a scumread on Malakittens or a tu quoque fallacy? Justify yourself, Newbie. Calling out hypocrisy is not a good response, as there are very very good reasons that Mala's town.

[Mathdino]

Alright, rereading Victor and Newbie's interaction downsizes my scumread on Newbie.
I don't know who asked me about Wisdom, but I'll get to that, because I will concede that the flip strikes him off the top of my townlist. I'll also admit that a good amount of my townread on him had a lot to do with the fact that his thought process is basically a quieter version of me, and we arrived at the same conclusions a lot. However, despite our equal activity, his conclusions on wgeurts, Silver, Constantine, and Riddleton ALL came after my own.

I know some of you hate this but let's do some quick NKA before we get into the meat of D2. I know it's WIFOM heaven, but there is always a reason for the NK and seeing who it benefits is good evidence, though it shouldn't be used solely to justify a read.

Spoiler: A Brief History of TTH:

1. Votes Wisdom, explains why later on (gutread).
2. (#94) Articulates scumreads on Wisdom and NM, shows confidence in me, acryon, and SilverWolf.
3. Argues with me and Wisdom about Wisdom.
4. "I'm currently working from townreads on Victor, Newbie, mathdino, Silver Wolf, wgeurts, and Malakittens for varying reasons."
5. Agrees that the scum are in {Wisdom, DukeC, Undertaker, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, acryon}, starts pushing a Wisdom wagon in reaction to the wgeurts one.
6. Spends time arguing with people about Wisdom and wgeurts, gets a townread on BMWS, and flipflops on Silver before settling on a townread on her.
7. Rereads the game. Her new conclusions: "I'm mainly scumreading Wisdom and blind right now though I have major questions about Victor. I'm townreading Silver Wolf and acryon in addition to all the townreads I previously stated (minus Victor). I'm also having doubts about my Wisdom scumread mostly due to his treatment of Silver Wolf, but I'll have to mull it over some more." She displayed very clear problems with a lot of Victor's posting.
8. Argues with Mala, ends up burning her reads and starting over. Ends up townreading Victor and having the scum in {Wisdom, FinnLaw, Constantine, Not_Mafia, blindmewithscience, Malakittens}.
9. Revises her read on Victor into a scumread, argues with acryon about Wisdom (this seems to happen a lot, lol). Complains about me agreeing with Wisdom constantly.
10. Burns her reads AGAIN. Townlist: {wgeurts, SilverWolf (now Riddleton), acryon, Wisdom, Mathdino, Constantine}. Also eliminates BMWS and NM. Scum is then in {FinnLaw, Malakittens, VictorDeAngelo, Newbie}. "Looking at his ISO through the lens of having Silver Wolf and blindmewithscience as townreads, I think it's a lot more likely for Victor to be scum."
11. Starts arguing with Wisdom once again, unvotes and revotes Victor. Scumreads Wisdom.
12. Flops on Wisdom again, changes to townread (no offence TTH if you're reading this, but making a history of you and Wisdom is really getting on my nerves xD). Townreads Constantine along with everyone on his wagon.
13. Ends the day displaying willingness to switch wagons if necessary, but arguing with acryon about her Constantine townread.

So what do we learn? TTH is very unpredictable with her reads because they flop so much, but a huge portion of her game was centred around Wisdom. She had no thoughts on possible scumbuddies for Victor. Her consistent townreads were me, wgeurts, acryon, SilverWolf. She never really commented on Riddleton.

Unpredictability is a very good reason for a NK, as it makes someone difficult to manipulate. TTH was very clearly difficult to manipulate this game, considering her propensity for arguing with people about her townreads, along with the fact that she repeatedly flip flopped on people

of her own accord

, without the influence of others. However, her death is directly detrimental to her consistent townreads. This makes me more confident that wgeurts is town, as her townreads on him were fairly fleshed out. Slightly more confident in acryon and Riddleton, although those reads, along with my own, weren't really as explained.

Who does the NK benefit directly then? Wisdom is the obvious person that profits off her death. The question here (okay I'm only going one layer of wifom) is whether TTH was killed specifically to point to Wisdom.

If you don't like NKA, you can really just ignore this, since I'm not going to use this to completely justify any reads. It only serves to help look at consistencies and inconsistencies.

[Mathdino]

Riddleton's advocacy for a PL of himself completely nixes the scumslip part of my read on him. This does not make him town, and I'm going to have to look at his and Silver's interactions with Victor in a sec, but I'd recommend people ignore his mistake when reading him.

Riddleton, if we're lynching you, it is NOT going to be a PL. D2 PL is bad.

[Mathdino]

SilverWolf:

Jingle's advice to playing scum, which Silver reposted in her mafia QT. Notable parts:
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."

OH GOD. JUST FOUND SOMETHING HUGE:

Third, if someone (me or otherwise) attacks you for something, don't waste your time being defensive.

Just politely explain why they're wrong (once, and *clearly*), and move on to what's important: looking for *actual* scum

. The reason for this is simple: Scum subconsciously focus on their own guilt, and feel they have to defend themselves; town know they are innocent and don't put much stock in others accusations. This is why overdefensiveness is a pretty reliable scum tell in newbie games.

One of {SilverWolf, Newbie} is scum, both for this unwarranted WKing of wgeurts and for jumping on the easy wagon with rehashed reasoning. I don't think they both are, seeing as they voted together in a short time using the same reasoning.

Actually, my reasoning is pretty solid and I'm sticking with it for now. I am not really caring for the sheeping comments from mathdino or the comments from you either so if you guys get me lynched, I'll flip town, and be out of the game and then you guys can go back to leaving the new players alone-newbie, wegeurts, myself and

actually go after real scum

, unless of course one or both of you is scum doing this in which case, it would make sense.

It gets worse:

Fourth: This is a tricky one, and you'll have to feel it for yourself the balance for how closely you want to follow it: Follow other players' leads (including mine), but don't make it obvious that that's what you're doing. Try not to vote for the same person as someone else *because of the same reasons*; find your own reasons if you can. There are exceptions to this rule, such as when there's not much else to nitpick about them, or when the reason is so amazingly bad that you can't *not* vote them for it. For instance, last game I won as scum, there was a guy who quick-hammered *two* townies before they could claim. It was a no-brainer to vote him. And *not* voting for somebody that scummy is also bad. So like I said, you'll have to feel this one out for yourself.

If it weren't for replacing out, this would be enough to confirm SilverWolf as scum to me. If she's scum, then she's purposefully making her behaviour toward Victor unreadable, so I won't focus much on that. She townreaded and then nullreaded her scumpartner in her scumgame, but Victor acted a lot scummier this game.

Riddleton:

Here is one of his scumgames he replaced into. His partners are Anatole and chaoslord. He starts off distancing his partner but then voting another 'scumread'. His first signature case was on acryon, but a lot of that is because of Riddleton's (also signature) hatred for NKA. His first post with both his scumpartners referenced. Scumreads one of them, sorta townreads the other. Then he outright makes a case against both his scumpartners and proceeds to powerbus the 2 of them, saying they're scumpartners, and flipping back and forth between voting them but being adamant that one of them gets lynched.

Just like NKA, I won't use meta as a justification for a read, but rather to look at consistencies. In this case? Riddleton's behaviour is not in any way inconsistent with his scum meta, and in his scumgame, the majority of his cases were against his scumpartners.

Also, I just realised: His 'scumslip' that I pointed out earlier? Well, it ONLY works if Victor is town. Since Victor flipped scum, it confirms that Riddleton just made a normal mistake there.
So why is Riddleton so hung up on it? Answer: He's advocating for a PL of himself because he knows that'll never happen, and it gives him towncred to talk about his own lynch.

Riddleton's behaviour makes it unlikely to me that he's scum with Constantine. I still don't enjoy having Constantine in the game, but I think in light of the above, I'm willing to switch my vote.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

EBWOP: The 'notable parts' should be:
"When in doubt, just wait until somebody else posts, and analyze what they said. Basically, try as hard as you can *not* to be the one sticking out of the crowd, especially *right* when people are looking for someone to scumhunt for."
"Second, treat me as you would treat any other player. Don't avoid voting for me, don't avoid accusing me of something you think is scummy. This will be trickier than it sounds. Similarly, don't get flustered if I start attacking you; treat it as if anyone else was attacking you and defend your honor."

Whoops.

[Mathdino]

I actually have an even more solid townread on BMWS because of it, whose angle was to immediately scrutinize your reasons for hammering and your reads.

Dino was a little more bombastic and less substantive

, but they both kinda read like they didn't know what Vic's flip was gonna be.

Agree on BMWS very much, he shares the top of my townreads with Mala. I appreciate your description of me

As a policy, I'm lynching off the wagon today, but I want to know why riddleton is scum reading

That wouldn't have been a OTT scumbuddy reaction

Maybe. I'm sticking to the mandate, and it is a good one. Either Acyron or Mathdino is getting lynched tonight.
I agree that newbie is possible scum.

There seems to be some consensus that lynching Acyron would be a good idea.

*newbie or mala

@both of you

: In the wise words of Riddleton's predecessor, "You really are a piece of work."

Get this through your head: Just because you two led yesterday's lynch does NOT make either of you town leader, and does NOT mean you're going to direct the lynch.

Constantine

, your wagon analysis sucks and if you've read more than 2 games on this site, it's obvious why. And there is by NO means consensus that acryon would be a good lynch, unless you mean it's the consensus of the angels.

Riddleton

, your read on Mala is baseless and inconsistent. During twilight you were even agreeing with Mala on VDA and accepting that we probably got scum. Beginning of the new day, you turn on her after your target

flips scum

. Also, I never bussed Victor, you're very wrong on that. Explain yourself (I'd have said that to Const too, but we know he won't).

To be really blunt. I had just hammered someone who was town and I felt really shitty that my reads were so wrong, so horribly wrong that game. I had beat myself up and figured that fuck it I'm sure VDA is scum so I felt like hammering and doing something right for a change.

Can confirm, this is legit, and this is town.

@borkjerfkin:

Okay, so here's the deal with Wisdom. I agree that his behaviour toward the Victor wagon is iffy, as is the fact that as shown in my VC IIOA, 3/5 of his votes were almost directly after my own votes and cases (the Mathdino vote was RVS wagon, the Mala vote was to get her to pitch in). Not once did he question my townread on him, and I think if he WERE scum, a fair amount of his behaviour was intended to manipulate me by validating basically all my reads. So right now, my read on Wisdom is a clean slate so I don't confbias due to my tunneling of him as town. I might be comfortable with a lynch on him later on depending on his D2 behaviour.

But here's the problem. I think one of {Constantine, Riddleton} is scum. Why would Wisdom distract us from a wagon on Victor, with a wagon on another scumbuddy? The move just doesn't add up. I'm only comfortable seeing him as scum if Constantine and Riddleton are both town.

Therefore, if I had to call the scumteam, it'd be one of {Constantine, Riddleton, Wisdom}, and one of {NM, Newbie, maaaaybe Finn/bork}.

Edit: Riddleton, I'm trying to answer the question I asked someone else yesterday: Given all that SilverWolf's done, is what Riddleton's done enough to

redeem

his slot? The fact that everything you've done with the slot is perfectly consistent with scum-you means the answer is a definitive 'no'.

[Mathdino]

Oh lol oops. I thought you were correcting Constantine's post and saying the lynch is going to be Newbie or Mala.

Still really want you to explain the Mala read. Like in your next post.

[Mathdino]

I'm not using your meta to prove you're scum. I'm using it to prove that you haven't done anything that shows you're town.

Au contraire, I'm using Victor's behaviour toward SilverWolf, which is very much how he acts toward his scumbuddies, along with the fact that everything Silver's done is basically following the advice she learned from Jingle, to prove your slot is scum. Recall our misgivings with her: She sheeps everyone and disguises other people's reasoning as her own, she waited for other people to post in order to analyse that instead of introducing new content, and the kicker was her AtE saying we should "actually go after real scum" along with only defending herself once.

Tis also notable what Wisdom pointed out, that you townreaded Constantine for the same reasons you scumread Victor. Inconsistency between reads is scummy, and it makes me think you're looking for towncred. Like I said, there's no chance you and Constantine are both scum.

Your inconsistency about Mala doesn't help either.

[Mathdino]

Wisdom

, I need your read on Mala ASAP before nightfall if you read this.

Didn't manage to read it before the lock, but she got much scummier. I hate her certainty about Victor flipping scum, it comes out of nowhere. Victor had not done anything that scummy to warrant such certainty. And such a quickhammer does not fall into things I'm used to seeing from town-Mala at all.

Victor's side: Mala played a scumgame with Victor; check my metacase on him. In it, Victor displayed the EXACT same nonchalance about being at L-1, except instead of someone hammering, he survived to endgame. Had I known about this at the time, I'd have offered to hammer as well.
Mala's side: Her explanation for hammering is legit and makes perfect sense from her 'weird mood' point of view. I checked.

[Mathdino]

Lemme just say that if acryon flips scum, I'm going to eat my hat if Constantine didn't bus Victor and acryon to try to implicate me.
You haven't made your acryon case clear at all, Wisdom. And no, my townread isn't based on RVS. His behaviour toward Victor just seemed rather natural and not at all like distancing to me. I will, however, look over his meta in a sec.

On Riddleton, you've had a lot of qualms about his posts to not scumread him at this point, especially after yesterday. Is that only because he shares your scumread on Mala? Regardless, I think the game I linked to is rather different than one with basically the equivalent of 2 serial killers; no scumbuddies, more scumhunting. Everything Silver's done implies she's following Jingle's advice to a T. This is COMBINED with her ultra-sheepy play, combined with Victor's interactions with her. Seriously, read the meta I provided of him. He has a high, high tendency to try to link his scumbuddies with townspeople. He did that to Silver 3 times.

On Mala, your (can I call it a case? It's more like a ton of posts) ton of posts on her seem very much like cherry picking. Every apparent contradiction you've found is both out of context and ignores the valid reasons she's had for them given her thought process. I won't explain in her stead but her play is very consistent with being town.

On Newbie, are you unable to see how Mala might have arrived at a Victor/Newbie conclusion? Or the context in which she arrived at that conclusion? Furthermore, the fact that she

did

directly copy Mala's reasons here does not make her somehow townier than Mala for coming up with said reasons.
And don't worry, I'm not coming up with reasons to fit the read. I ISO'd Newbie and Victor after Mala's suggestion, and yes, Victor and Newbie are a very very possible scumteam. Much more possible than Victor/Mala, especially given the interactions I pointed out earlier.

On a preemptive note, I would really prefer this not become the Wisdom vs Mala show, since I'm currently seeing it as TvT. Is there actual legitimacy in you two apparently being able to read each other?

[Mathdino]

Forgot to say this in the Mala part, but I think you're taking your reaction to the hammer and blowing it up to find everything she does as scummy. Fitting the evidence to the reads, in essence.

[Mathdino]

Mala looks pretty damn townie off her opening posts. I think I should be able to metaread you fairly well now, so I last long enough I will see if your scum.

354 - Calling 262 coaching from Mala is a massive stretch. In fact I've spotted a few spots where I think there might be coaching but this is not one of them. Also roles that benefit from being lynched are called Jesters. You'll note there's none in this game if you checked the setup.

That said, I also don't like how Mala has fallen into the background. The last few posts have a distinct feel of holding back.

This, along with the scumgame of Victor/Mala which I'm not sure you've read, is why Mala is town.
Scum tend to distance each other early on and then either townread or outright bus. If you don't agree with that, well, that's what Victorscum does.

Victor, he practically buddied Mala early on and appealed to her keeping him around. The latter part of that first quote means that if Victor and Mala are both town and Victor can read her, it'd be in Mala's best interests to not kill him off so that way Victor can prove to everyone why Mala's town.

Then he mudslings her without anything really coming of it. Note however that his suspicion isn't sheeping other people's suspicion; Victor was (I believe) the first person to point out what he pointed out.

Does this read as scum to scum behaviour to you, or scum to town?

[Mathdino]

A. While I didn't agree with the Victor wagon, I could see how people would arrive at that conclusion.
B. I don't buy this point yet, but I want to see Mala's answer.
C. Going to respond to this along with 1094: The deadline extension and wanting Victor to post seems like a good point. However, the whole "fuck, he's being obvscum, like he did in that previous game" seems kind of contrived, IMO. Going back to consistency here, while whatever made her panic isn't necessarily inconsistent with Victor being scum, I don't think it makes her scum.
So wait, did she hammer to shut him up, or because she panicked about him being obvscum? I don't really understand you here; what reason was there to believe that people would suspect her for not hammering Victor there? What reason was there to believe someone else wouldn't hammer him? Does she really bus like that just for the helluvit?
D. Same as B. I do want to say that it's clear she did her homework with Victor's scum meta over the night.
E. We arrived at different conclusions using the same reasoning. I can see how she might be able to use my reasoning to prove her own reads, but I don't see how she'd think I'd just change my reads like that after already arriving at my conclusion.
F. The order is certainly important here. If she was, say, the 3rd person to think that, and Newbie was the 4th, sure it'd be scummy as hell. But this is 1st and 2nd. Different.
G/H. Good points if you're town.

Overall, I'm not prepared to discuss this in full without Mala's response, but I don't totally buy it yet, probably for the same reason I townread you yesterday: Mala is very correct in that our thought process last night was similar. However, the whole meta and you two being able to read each other is starting to make me consider making this day a 1v1 between you and Mala if Mala's response makes it obvious this isn't TvT.

Lol, I wanted to see what Riddle had to say too. Kinda wanted your case on acryon first tbh.

[Mathdino]

Ugh, see, again, your "that was just in her mind" seems way more contrived than Occam's Razor, which is that she just got pinged real bad from Victor and hammered based on emotions.
You'll understand if I'm not confident enough in your ability to psychoanalyse her to take you at your word here, I hope.

[Mathdino]

Also, I forgot to say this earlier, but you've yet to factor in that her "I thought it was the deadline" was in response to me raging at her for hammering, while she responded "I was in a weird mood" immediately to BMWS asking her reason for it.

She then explained that weird mood today, and it checks out.

Edit: Ooh, okay, there's something to talk about. NM's a lurker, but where does the BMWS read come from?

[Mathdino]

Okay bear with me because I'm still trying to understand this.

I'm in a really weird mood.

Plus I thought the DL was creeping close

This is her initial reaction to me and BMWS being like "WTF".

Ew guess there was 12 hours left. Although I'd still be asleep better than a NL

This wasn't in response to anything; 904 was me noping the fuck out.

Because his apathy to being run up felt forced. He could have fought the lynch, caught up and gave up reads. His last effort was to stall reads til the morning, felt scummy. His early pushes were bad.

This is in response to BMWS's "Tell me why he's scum, right now. I want reasoning."

So your scenario states that she saw Victor's apathy, panicked and thought he was being obvscum, and then hammered. Now, if this were true, why would she keep this reason until being asked about it?

Like I said, the weird mood checks out. The deadline issue doesn't seem forced, IMO. But the issue with your psychoanalysis is in the part where she panics and impulse-busses because she thought everyone else would notice him being obvscum.

I thought I'd have more to say on this than "I'm really not sure", but that's all I've got, sorry.
If Mala gets lynched and flips town, who will you vote tomorrow?

[Mathdino]

Also, what's your read on Riddleton and why? You didn't respond to my saying that you've had a lot of qualms about him today for a townread.

Any thoughts on my analysis of Victor's interaction with SilverWolf?

Any thoughts on SilverWolf's actions in general?

[Mathdino]

If they both agree to it, I'd be up for lynching Wisdom and Mala in succession if the first lynch flips town or claims mason; their meta record of correctly reading each other is pretty undeniable. Just need Mala to convince me this isn't TvT.

Paging

blindmewithscience

,

borkjerfkin

, and

acryon

for their thoughts on this after Mala posts.

[Mathdino]

A. She explained back here, and her read on you seems largely dependent on gut.
B. Okay I was originally going to say that I understand how this post might lead her believe that my posts 'lead straight to Wis-scum' but actually you have a good point. If she's scum, I'm guilty as charged for subconscious naivete.

Mala, wtf do you mean about my posts leading to a Wisdom scumread?

Note that you said that

before

I started actually rethinking my read on Wisdom (#1033).

Thanks, that point is starting to sway my read on you vs Mala in your favour.

Thoughts on my proposal? If it comes to that, up for being lynched to prove Mala scum?

[Mathdino]

I didn't find a scumread on Wisdom.

I'd appreciate if you did read that insane amt of spam from Wisdom, and at least respond to the ABCDEFGH case.

[Mathdino]

...

I didn't ask you where you got your townread on me, since that seems to already be a popular opinion as someone pointed out.

I asked where you got your scumread on Wisdom, and how my posts prior to #1033 lead one to a Wisscumread.

[Mathdino]

...

I didn't ask how my posts led YOU to believe Wisdom was scum.

I asked how my posts would lead ONE to believe Wisdom is scum.

I did not come to the same conclusion as you. Read my posts correctly.
Also, explain your scumread on him if there's anything besides meta that proves your point.

Edit: Is that it?

[Mathdino]

What up.

considering there are no investigative roles in this game, I am utterly unmoved by naked votes at daystart, especially after a scumflip

Wisdom has been scummy all game.

How much have you read?

Neither, try again.

It's probably deff Wisdom and I'm either leaning Acryon or Newbie.

Explain these. Your read and opening vote on Wisdom did not come from meta analysis. If you used meta to dictate your vote, you'd have gone after Riddleton like I did (as Victor paired Silver up 3 times).

[Mathdino]

We're not speedlynching anyone, and we're certainly not lynching someone for being wrong.

FoS: this guy

Would still like Mala to at least respond to Wisdom's ABCDEFGH case.

[Mathdino]

@Wisdom: I can see how you have a propensity for tunneling.

@NM: Don't mistake playstyle as an alignment tell. Wisdom spams content. Wisdom tunnels. Mala's read is 10x more legit than yours.

Edit: Sorry.

[Mathdino]

I'm totally gonna piss off Riddleton with this, but I just realised something; I forgot the setup.

Consider: It'd be a very good move for mafia to kill based on who they think is a mason. Again, TTH's consistent townreads every time were me, acryon, wgeurts, and SilverWolf. Of these, acryon had a huge townread for TTH every time he mentioned her. The others had reasonably belligerent interactions with her (and wgeurts claimed VT).

I think scum thought TTH and acryon were masons, and shot the more unpredictable one for unknown reasons.
I think this confirms my townread on acryon.

[Mathdino]

My criterion is literally just "Prove to me that Wisdom and Mala are so damn good at reading each other that if they scumread each other, it can't be TvT".

[Mathdino]

You're committing the same fallacy as Constantine, Newbie. It's a common mistake coming to MS, thinking that wagon analysis consisting solely of on-the-wagon/off-the-wagon and # of scum on wagon is in any way a legitimate way to come up with lynch targets. Scum on this site bus each other to hell when it benefits them to do so, and a lot of times when it doesn't (people are weird).

Motivations of people for being on/off the wagon and sometimes order is all you can really look at. So have you considered the possible motivations of acryon and Wisdom for resisting the wagon? Is what they did

in

consistent with a town thought process? If not, then that's not a good main reason for them being scum.

Edit: bork articulates exactly what my 'ehhh' feeling was for the idea of Mala deciding to bus at that point.

[Mathdino]

You people are impossible. We lynch people who were off the wagon the day after hitting scum

It doesn't matter

what happened

,

what your reads are

, that's all blah.

You pick one of the two options on the table, and you run with it. Mala is not being lynched. Wisdom is not being lynched. We are lynching Acyron.
VOTE: Acyron

1. You're not the town leader.
2. You have no reasons.
3. Did you even read what I said to you? (course not) Scum. Bus. All. The. Time.
4. That's an interesting statement to make for someone who

just came to this site

.
5. Wisdom wasn't on the wagon... what...

[Mathdino]

BMWS and anyone else

: I know I kinda got drowned out by Wisdom directly afterwards, but any thoughts on my series of posts on Riddleton? How about my meta case on Victor?

[Mathdino]

I don't even know how to respond to this.

Why is Riddleton town?

You are aware that you're literally using a logical fallacy to justify yourself, right? Reverse Gambler's Fallacy; just because you were right once doesn't mean you're right now. Just because I was wrong once doesn't mean I'm wrong now. And as I said a long time ago, from my perspective, you're very wrong about me, so why would I sheep you just because you ask me to? You have done nothing to convince me (or anyone else) of anything this entire game, so don't pretend you're reaching out to me.

No, I've never finished a game as scum before. Have you ever played on MafiaScum before? I've read/skimmed over 100 games on this site. If you really want me to bombard you with MD threads talking about how insanely common bussing is, let me know.

Why have you answered no one's questions at any point in this game? You are almost universally regarded as useless by the town, hate to break it to you.

[Mathdino]

Dude. 'Argumem' isn't even a word. Neither is 'obicular'. 'Astern' means the back of a ship. And if you're saying that all arguments based on axioms are fallacious, that's just flat out false.
So yes, Constantine, your 'fallacies' do seem to be an invention for stupid people to sound smart when they don't know how to properly argue.

Appeal to authority, by the way. Fallacies don't mean you're wrong, but they do mean that your argument sucks and is no reason anyone should vote me or acryon.

Oh, so your accusations are justified?

THEN. JUSTIFY. THEM.

Edit: I can't even respond to that when I don't have any idea what you're referring to.
I'm never going to lynch them for being on a scumwagon. I'm going to lynch them because their play is scummy. You trying to dumb this game down to "Let's lynch everyone off the wagon" is an insane oversimplification.

[Mathdino]

You have no idea how badly I'd want to policy lynch you right now if it was still D1 and there were no legit leads.

If you're scum and your entire play was a ploy to piss me off and screw with my reads, then I'll be applauding you after endgame.

Heads up; Newbie finally has a meta on site. Gonna be skimming that in a sec.

[Mathdino]

I'm not; it was a suggestion and one I wanted to run past the both of you first. You two seemed really really confident on the whole being able to read each other, so I was wondering if it'd be possible that there was scum between you no matter what.

The fact that neither of you are comfortable with that means I'm not either.

[Mathdino]

No, we're not going to ACTUALLY policy him. If anything voting without reasons and not answering questions is a bigger problem D2 than it is in LyLo. Also, unless scum feels like playing a cruel joke, I doubt his current scumreads will even survive to a 2v1 LyLo (3v2 maybe, but there's almost no chance we won't have bagged scum by the time we have 5 players).

It's not a VI facade. If anything his facade is that of someone who's an insanely good scumhunter and wants everyone to sheep him based on that (basically trying to be Majiffy).

Convince me that Riddleton's not scum and I'll consider Constantine. Voting patterns pretty much nullify the possibility of that pair though, IMO.

[Mathdino]

lolno, we lynch whoever is scum. Such rules don't apply

Why am I town? Why are you not considering me even though I was off the wagon?

Still wouldn't be surprised if he's scum, knows you're town, and is failing to bus his teammate. Really depends on how honest he was about his thoughts on bussing. And also on Riddleton's alignment.

Constantine

, can you show us any of your meta? In particular your scum meta.

[Mathdino]

Really liked acryon's catchup post, enough to make me go back to townreads on Wisdom and Mala. Also enough to make me think acryon/Constantine are not a pair; I already pointed out that if acryon's scum, it's likely Constantine bussed him and Victor. If Constantine gets lynched (very real possibility) and flips scum, acryon would be pretty much fucked for the game. Bussing would not be the correct move here.

Was a bit disappointed that the below was completely missed though, as I still think it's fairly important. Since paging people directly apparently works,

BMWS, acryon, borkjerfkin, wgeurts

, would like discussion on this.

BMWS and anyone else

: I know I kinda got drowned out by Wisdom directly afterwards, but any thoughts on my series of posts on Riddleton? How about my meta case on Victor?

Also wtf NM. Hate to go with the 'too scummy to be scum' argument but this is a

bit

too ridiculous to pull after D1 scumflip. I mean he's joining a wagon that could possibly lead to a townflip;

who do you suppose would be the scummiest person on that wagon?

borkjerfkin, please explain Constantine vote.

Still pretty convinced on Riddleton being scum and Constantine/Riddleton not being a pair.

[Mathdino]

I agree on the 'savviness' part (not to say Riddleton isn't savvy, but he did slip up before). However, it's perfectly logical; advocacy for one's own PL can be a good underhanded AtE to make people think he's town, along with the fact that he already preempted the scum not NKing him in the future.

I don't think you've commented on SilverWolf's play D1. Thoughts on that?

Edit: Good catch.

[Mathdino]

It'd be dumb to continue talking about it either way. No matter town or scum, he clearly missed the fact that his slip's been nullified. Are you saying town is more likely to miss that than scum, Wisdom?

I think he thinks he can nullify the scumslip by advocating for a PL on himself but he didn't realise that there's no need for that.

Edit: Hang on, haven't read acryon's last post.

[Mathdino]

Additionally, I would much rather revisit this after a Constantine lynch, because almost everything he says is just pinging so hard.

I suppose since the only thing stopping me from a Constantine scumread is Riddleton, I'd be fine with that. Understand though that if Constantine is lynched and flips town, I'm going to be very resistant to not giving Riddleton the noose he asked for.

I was in the newbie game where Victor was scum with TSO who became Mala. I didn't have the same feeling this game that I did with him that game, where I ultimately concluded he was town, but he obviously turned out to be scum. That game certainly played a part in my resistance to the Victor wagon, because it just didn't feel similar at all to me.

That wasn't my point; obviously I'm not trying to argue he's scum after the flip. My point was the associations I'm drawing from Victor's posts based on his behaviour that game. His behaviour toward people seems to point to wgeurts-town, you-town (won't ask you to comment on that, haha), Mala-town, and Silver-scum.

Edit: Exactly. He's cruising. I'd expect Riddleton to have come up with another of his cases by now.

[Mathdino]

Oh I see the issue. I URL'd 4 different words.
Me analysing Victor's previous scumgame.
Analysis of Victor's first longer post.
Victor wagon analysis.
Victor's other long post.

@wgeurts: Try to shy away from ordering reads lists like that in general. Gives scum a road map of who to kill. Just state your townreads and state your scumreads.

[Mathdino]

Rereading my post you quoted just made me realise I PoE'd more people than there are town. Maybe NM is scum after all. I do want to hear from Newbie, hopefully she won't get replaced. Also just checked and apparently Mala never explained her twilight read on her.

Yo Mala, even if it's no longer valid, what gave you the scumread on Newbie yesterday?

[Mathdino]

>still more useful than Constantine

Just kidding.
UNVOTE: Riddleton
VOTE: Not_Mafia
For pressure.

[Mathdino]

Malakittens

, still not quite sure what you mean by that. These are the 4 posts Newbie made before you said Newbie and Victor were a scumteam.

Lol if Victor flips scum.

If he flips town, I'll admit that I was wrong and vote malakittens.

Honestly, I think VD was willing to run up the time.

No, but I'm just saying I think he was hoping people would continue to hold off and wait for his reads so he could "accidentally" be too late with them.

Not agreeing with what Malakittens did, though.

Not necessarily. I think he would've stalled for as much as he could get away with and/or possibly came out with a scum read on Constantine, enabling him to jump on Constantine's lynch.

All I have to say is, things will be interesting once he flips (think it'll be scum).

I bolded the part where she commented on your hammer; if anything, I'm the one who flipped out and Newbie/Riddleton were the calmest. Can you explain a bit more?

Rhetorical question- How would you suggest we get NM to contribute? It's not like we're gonna use our votes for an actual lynch right now, might as well use our only tool for our advantage.

[Mathdino]

Meh. Mala's posts actually feel town now.

Aaaaand this fight ends in... A DRAW.

Thank god.

bork pretty much speaks my mind on this; I trust Mala on NM so my new scumteam calling is gonna be one of {Riddleton, Constantine} and one of {Newbie, bork, BMWS} although honestly the last 2 are on there only because they're my weakest townreads and I'm still not prepared to call bork's alignment. Since Newbie's basically there out of PoE and the fact that my reasons for originally townreading her were shoddy at best, thinking Imma leave her alone until we need to find the last scum.

UNVOTE: Not_Mafia
VOTE: Riddleton

Riddleton:

We're not PLing you, like I said; the fact that you originally made that mistake is now a complete non-issue to everyone. If you're town, you need to contribute to the game and give us your reads. A compelling case on Constantine would actually be enough for me to switch.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: I literally did this just for mockery: NM's Entire ISO

I missed RVS

The way Wgeurts has handled his "lol slayers" thing seems townish to me, it usually really easy to catch newb scum who dig themselves a hole cos they don't understand (how to bejave as scum in) RVS. They'll typically trot out the slayers defence after they've exhausted the "RVS sucks I'm town" line, his super early capitualtion makes me lean town.

wgeurts suspicion and reasons.

EBWODP: Missed a bit

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo (not a test)

Edit: Written before #55.

Why is it important to note the vote is not a test?

Why is important that you wrote your post before 55?

You don't think players should claim serious votes as such? What are you trying to achieve questioning that?

Victor counterquestions.

Sorry for low activity everyone, I haven't read since my last post due to time constraints but I should be able to catch up this evening.

Prod dodge.

I've only skimmed but I agree with Mala, and trust her ability to read town flail

@Mod V/LA until 23/10

I won't be replacing out, just need to wait for things to calm down a bit (good things)

V/LA.

Okay so I'm going to start catching up, should be able to get through about half a dozen pages or so. My first is question is wtf is this @ the above 3 posts

Catching up.

Got to page 9, if wgeurts is faking a newb town it's a persona he's carried to the whole site, which I seriously doubt.

VOTE: VictorDeAngelo

Still catching up. Votes Victor while catching up.

@Mod The formatting issue in 521 is caused by having a spoiler tag in a quote? Could you fix this?

~mod note:what was once brokt is now fixt. What was once a double post is now a single post.

Mod note.

Prod dodge.

Busy until deadline, will try my hardest to catch up in the night, It sucks to push someone on V/LA but at the same time we can't not lynch someone because of V/LA and if the wagon dismantles it might become non-viable as we approach deadline.

Catching up.

I'd be willing to lynch either Victor or Riddleton.

Question answer, no reasons.

Riddle slipped?

"Wat?"

VOTE: Wisdom

Mala push sucks

Naked vote.

But you're fine doing pre-flip associative?

Pointless question.

Can we just speedlynch Wisdom, his 'case' on Mala is that she hammered a read a he wasn't confident in and drenched it in pointless spam to demoralise town and make it look he is making an effort and being productive. He's also perfectly content to pointlessly tunnel when it benefits him but this confidence dissipates as soon it might come back to him

If Mala gets lynched and flips town, who will you vote tomorrow?

I can't answer such hypotheticals. If such a thing happens, ask me then.

This post is also nonsense, if he's said something along the lines of "I'm confident enough in my reads that I need to yet" not "I can't" which is just an excuse to not get off of this tunnel

Aha, okay, so here are his reasons for voting Wisdom. Basically voting him because he's wrong, but it's still...

Reading back my post on Wisdom sucked, he's still scum though, and if you read back d1 twilight it should be obvious why

...never mind, it sucked.

No. And we both know why, it's just a matter of time for others to realise it.

Oooominooouuuuussssss

That's not relevant

Yes it is.

No

Yes.

Cool

No it's not.

Are we really this oblivious?

Yes we are.

If you all followed what I said in my posts you'd understand

OHHHHH NOW I GET IT. I TOTALLY UNDERSTAND YOU, MAN.

8 posts about activity and catching up. 2 good pointed posts toward Victor and wgeurts. 1 question answer by way of sheeping. 10 posts about Wisdom that don't explain anything at all.
You've gotta be kidding me, man.

[Mathdino]

I doubt Riddleton is scum, I don't recall him taking any opportunity to hop off Victor. Day 1 lynches are bad for scum even if they hard bus as the "why aren't you dead? " question willl bite them in the arse eventually

Oh, and this.

It's called bussing for cred, he just didn't do it well.

"Why aren't you dead" is among the worst mafia questions ever asked in late game.

cough wifom cough

[Mathdino]

I doubt Riddleton is scum, I don't recall him taking any opportunity to hop off Victor. Day 1 lynches are bad for scum even if they hard bus as the "why aren't you dead? " question willl bite them in the arse eventually

This. I'm not saying that it isn't possible, but the way he went about it and so early in the game. I mean, yeah, he could've bussed, but you can say anyone in the game is bussing since we don't know for sure who's mafia and who isn't. Out of all the people on Victor's wagon, I just don't see him being the one that bussed.

Newbie, your opinion on Riddle?

I don't really agree about him bussing Victor, so therefore he looks town in my eyes for now. I will say he needs to do more this day phase, though. I may have to check again, but I don't remember him dropping the case on Malakittens that he claimed he would.

Noooope.

Not_Mafia, Newbie

, I sincerely hope you read the 2nd part of this post, because that really is what Riddlescum does. Seriously. He opens the game and writes a case on his partner if there's momentum for their lynch already.

Again, my point is not that he's scum because he wrote a case on scum. My point is

that does not make him town at

at all

. SilverWolf's actions and his trying to PL himself is what makes him scum.

Good post, wgeurts, I agree that the Mala case is actually kinda compelling. Waiting until the rest of your reads for further comments.

Edit: Goddamn it Riddleton, can you stop talking about yourself and write a case so we have direction in case you flip town?

[Mathdino]

Yes the scum could do it for town-cred however would gaining town-cred way up better than getting a quick easy mis-lynch?

Definitely. Scum will most likely get a mislynch at the end of the day anyway, but they don't have as many chances to get towncred. Scum defending a townie that looks like they might be lynched is something that happens all the time

If I can chime in, I want to note that Mala's defence was half-assed if anything. It's like she wasn't even trying to stop the wagon; she just decided to announce she wouldn't be on it by calling him town.

[Mathdino]

Mfw I made a spoonerism that actually makes sense in context.

"she wouldn't be on it" should be "we shouldn't be on it", although I guess both apply.

[Mathdino]

Village Idiot, nuff said.

This is funny coming from you

I wont stand by as others try to lynch riddleton. It is such an idiotic lynch, it's unbelievable. Actually, I'm pretty sure 90% of the players are complete newbs at this game, and it is absolutely dreadful having this become a mathdino dominated game. I do concede that I don't know this sites meta, but I know mafia in general. The silliness of everyone's argument and gameplay is astounding, and I'm baffled at these peoples ineptitude at recognizing scum.

Acyron isn't confirmed scum. Nothing in this game is confirmed, but I guarantee you town will win by lynching the two people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon. Completely ignoring actual scum tells, which as wisdom said, and to a modern degree I accept, scum tells are circumstantial.
- Wisdom
- Riddleton
- Telltaleheart
^None of these people are scum.

If you're a mason, and anyone of these people, claim now...

- Mathdino
- Acyron
- Malakittens
- Newbie

These were the 2 people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon. This would be a great time to self confirm some of the

most likely

scum candidates.
If Riddleton is scum, that means he hard bussed (led a lynch against a scum buddy), which is not only rare, but usually backfires.

What the actual fuck.

UNVOTE: Riddleton
VOTE: Constantine

Also, mfw his townreads are a dude who was pushing against the Victor wagon, the person he was SO SURE was scum at first and asked everyone to sheep him on, AND THE NK VICTIM.

[Mathdino]

@Borkjerkin - Friendly advice, watch it. Being a jackass may be cool in some circles, but not this one.

You know, I don't WOTC jackasses, but I do WOTC jackasses who are also hypocrites about it.

[Mathdino]

I really can't wait for endgame to laugh in this guy's face.

[Mathdino]

You all do suck. That's honesty.
I'm regretting coming to this site, because everything is overanaylzing.
On my first site I had a near perfect record on dozens of games, so I'm simply asking for the credibility I deserve.

Stop over thinking the game. The answer is pretty clear. Acyron or Newbie are likely scum. Mala and Mathdino maybe.

You know why we overanalyse here? Because scum are DAMN GOOD on this site. They're good at getting towncred. They're good at creating paranoia. They're good at getting wagons and mislynches going. On your site, we'd KNOW the things you keep lying about are true because we'd look over site meta and past games.
If scum is easily found on your site by looking at everyone off the scum wagon, I really don't know what to say about the quality of your players.

You deserve ZERO credibility on this site for bragging about how good you are every other post.
Also I like how you change me to a 'maybe' still not explaining why you scumread me in the first place at all.

Oh, and if you're scum, congrats for distracting me from the game, brother.

[Mathdino]

Predit: Mathdino, look at his posts, he's doing what I said: Being a village idiot. He generally doesn't give a fudge about site meta.
It looks horribly scummy but I seriously doubt he is scum so I will stand against any lynch of him.

I don't care anymore, and I don't care if this is what'll make me scummy in the future. I want him out of the game.

Talk to me tomorrow and I might change my mind.

[Mathdino]

You all do suck. That's honesty.
I'm regretting coming to this site, because everything is overanaylzing.
On my first site I had a near perfect record on dozens of games, so I'm simply asking for the credibility I deserve.

Stop over thinking the game. The answer is pretty clear. Acyron or Newbie are likely scum. Mala and Mathdino maybe.

Yep, troll.
Still town though.

FFS.

If he's a troll then nothing he says has any impact on his alignment.

Constantine, if you regret coming to this site, replace out.

UNVOTE: Constantine
VOTE: Riddleton
Ugh. Sorry about that.

Edit: Actually I forgot to comment, I actually like and agree with 1287, it's something I would've said as well...
Would recommend borkjerfkin to explain.

[Mathdino]

Riddleton,

if you honestly think you're gonna be more of a LyLo liability than Constantine, I really don't know what to say.

@Wisdom: Maybe she thinks you're TvS?

@Mod

: Is anything Constantine has said bad enough for a replace out?

[Mathdino]

I've decided to make a point, by following Mathdino's next wagon to its conclusion.
I am going to spam...
after, because I'm confident it will end in a mislynch.

How is this in any way playing to a town wincon.

[Mathdino]

Mathdino is a genius. We're going to get a scum flip for sure.
He used absolutely no logic in reaching his vote, but hey, he's still probably correct.

Oh sure, only 100x more logic than you've used. Probably literally.

[Mathdino]

You really want to pull winrate?

Spoiler: Ignore this if you all don't want to see me being as arrogant as this guy

Look at my wiki, hmm? See a perfect town winrate? Cool.
See the game where I lynched both scum in a 3v2 LyLo? Okay.
Ignore the 2nd one lol
See the game where I broke the game and 2 scum on the first day? Okay cool.
Check the topics I've posted in. See the abandoned game where my first serious vote was on scum who I tunneled until the mod screwed up?
Are you kidding me?

[Mathdino]

I'm totally scum. Maybe you guy's aren't newbs after all.
How did you figure it out?

Hey. Yo. Winrate for me: 100%.
Keep calling me a newb.

[Mathdino]

Right. Okay. Sorry bout that guys, generally shitty day. Will ignore.

I there really a reason for that question? Because I've been suspicious of you from day one (Only reason I unvoted you day one was because of a misunderstanding that I'm not willing to talk about right now). The way you acted towards the VD lynch doesn't help, either. As for Malakittens, there's various reasons.

Newbie, I think there's a fairly good chance Wisdom and Mala are both town, and a few people would agree. Their argument doesn't read particularly TvS, for example.
Is there a reason you're still unwilling to vote Riddleton after conceding the meta argument?

[Mathdino]

No, but just because you see Malakittens and Wisdom as TvS doesn't mean it's 100% certain, and enough townies disagree on this for it to be up in the air. This is the same thing we talked about earlier; tunneling like that doesn't really help further discussion.

Still waiting on your answer to my Riddleton question.

Anyway, the funny thing is, Mala's openly admitted that the scumread on Wisdom was gut combined with Victor's posts partially pointing to him, and Mala's probably most adequately explained her scumread on him. I mean if you want to use Mala's logic (as opposed to gut), IMO, it leads straight to Riddleton rather than Wisdom. So you very much do need to explain what Wisdom's done that's scummy.

[Mathdino]

What are the highly scummy things I've done? Pushing a wagon I felt was terrible? Pushing my scumreads?

Like I've outlined in this post, you skirted through most of the first half of the dayphase, coupled with the fact that you pushed lynches

other

than the VD one, which happened to be the scum lynch, for the second half of the dayphase.

Wait a second, the 2nd half of that post is about how he's trying to 'inch by inch put suspicion on Victor'. So now that was distancing I'm guessing?

I don't like how that post and the posts it links to basically make Wisdom scum in your eyes no matter what Victor's flip is.

[Mathdino]

I can already tell you probably won't even agree with my scumread on Wisdom, and in your eyes, since you don't agree with it, I shouldn't have him as a scum suspect.

On the contrary Newbie, I may no longer be asking you to sell me on Wisdom, but rather to convince me your scumread is even genuine.
Usually best to just answer the question

[Mathdino]

@Newbie: Good question, actually had to think about that for a bit. But it is different. Here's the thing; my thoughts on Riddleton have little to do with Victor. Victor is irrelevant to Riddleton, that's what the meta argument proved: that the fact that Riddleton pushed a scum wagon doesn't give him towncred. Now, that fact doesn't give him scumpoints. What makes him scum is SilverWolf's scummy behaviour

independent of others

, the fact that Riddleton keeps trying to PL himself, and partially due to how Victor talked about SilverWolf (which is actually fairly significant).
The thing is, coming up with possible scenarios and possible scum motivations is pretty much a confbias case, and only really proves they're not 100% town.

@acryon: Or maybe he's just a troll and we should all PM the mod about the fact that he tried to roleplay a mafia game, won't stop calling the entire thread idiotic, made up a new wincon for himself, and (I think this pretty much proves he's a troll) tried to make up out of thin air 'argumem de axiom', 'argumem de obicular', and 'argumem de astern'. Seriously, google those. Google 'obicular'. You're right in that he's not a VI or a newbie. He's just a troll.

[Mathdino]

Aaaand that's game. NM's slot is town. Scum are 2 of {Riddleton, Constantine (now a total null), Wisdom, Malakittens, Newbie}. Newbie/Malakittens unlikely. Wisdom/Riddleton unlikely.
Hey bork, why are Wisdom/Newbie not an option?

[Mathdino]

I trust Mala not to outright lie about his meta, and then you combine that with the replace-out and the post where he suggested it. Town replace-out =/= scum replace-out. This one is pretty consistent with what I know of NM (plus his terribly limited access early on).

[Mathdino]

newbie and wisdom had a very specific setup oriented interaction that would never be between buddies.

Was it on this page? Not gonna ask you to explain anymore than a yes/no to that.

Replace-outs and the way they're done has statistically been shown to be alignment indicative, in all fairness.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Constantine

He's not getting replaced.

[Mathdino]

Acyron isn't confirmed scum. Nothing in this game is confirmed, but I guarantee you town will win by lynching the two people off the wagon and the last two people on the wagon

This is completely wrong. If I had to throw out numbers I would say when scum are on a wagon it is 25% in the beginning, 50% in the middle and 25% in the end. The absolutes you are trying to put on this game are completely wrong and are severely skewing your perspective.

And why would you tell masons to claim?? We already went over why this is terrible.

I have already made my case on several occasions on why Constantine is scum, so I'm just going to do a run-down now as an appeal to the town:

First things first, he is not a village idiot. Probably the furthest thing from it. He knows exactly what he is doing which is why he speaks and acts as if this game functions in absolutes rooted in his own flavor of the game. He claims he has played many games, so should understand the late-game implications of living masons. Despite this presumed knowledge, he on multiple occasions near-outs the masons as well as straight-up asks for a claim. Since he has, again on multiple occasions, talked about how big of newbs most of the people in this game are, there is a good chance one of the masons could have claimed in response to his request, which would be bad for town. Thankfully, he is wrong about the town, and nobody bought into it, despite his multiple attempts. He has drawn multiple conclusions, most of which are based on incompatible associative tells. See 605 for a little run-down on that. This includes a claim in 597 that Mathdino, Victor, and SilverWolf have a non-mason connection, which implies a scum-team. Then in 627 changes his story and decides only one of them is scum, even though much of his initial discussion hinged on a shared alignment. In 720, he decides to enlighten the town with what makes scum. This is not being presented by someone who doesn't appear to understand the game(although he doesn't). It is presented by one of two people: grossly misinformed/newb/misunderstanding town, or pompous scum thinking they can manipulate the town into lynching his definition of scum(which he conveniently avoids being slotted into). Today, there are the obvious issues, including his

absurd

claim that you should always lynch off the wagon the day after the lynch, which may be one of the dumbest, most misinformed things I have ever seen stated as a policy.

I don't think it's possible to accept that Constantine is someone who doesn't know what he is saying and is simply misinformed. I think his statements and actions are clearly indicative of experience. The only two options are that he is a misinformed/misunderstanding player, or he is blatant, manipulative scum, and I think it is insane that you could accept the former as the truth in this case.

My vote remains on Constantine, and nothing short of a flat-out town-confirmation is getting me off of it.

If you don't want to policy lynch, then sheep this case.

If you haven't read this case, READ IT.

Either Constantine is a troll or this is true.
We all know Constantine will never get NK'd. If you really want this guy willing to throw the game for the town if he's town in the endgame, well, again, I really don't know what to say to you.

[Mathdino]

He

invented a new wincon

for himself.

I have literally never seen a bigger LyLo liability than him.

Again, if he's not a deliberate troll that's been screwing with us from the beginning
He.
Is.
Scum.

[Mathdino]

If Wisdom and Mala are partners, that was a damn good performance.

They're not gonna win though.

@borkjerfkin: Do you think that interaction that happened makes Newbie town, or d'ya think she could've faked it?

[Mathdino]

moar questions

We all agree that a Wisdom/wgeurts scumteam is incredibly unlikely. While the cases against Wisdom are legitimate, the argument against wgeurts is much stronger IMO. And so I believe that Wisdom is the townie and wgeurts is scum. With Silver somewhat defending wgeurts, I could see a scumteam with her and wgeurts (but I'm still waiting for a response to my 406, as I can also see the frustrated townie in her). I'll try to add more and expand on this later: have some tests tomorrow that I'd like to study for. Probably won't check this again for another few hours.

Yo.

BMWS

.
You said that you didn't see Wisdom-scum from my posts, as Mala indicated. At the same time, you didn't mention how your read on him has changed, if at all.
Does this conclusion still apply? Thoughts on wgeurts and Wisdom?

[Mathdino]

Wisdom

, I'd like you to provide all games you've played with Mala in the past year. All the ones you gave were from last year.

[Mathdino]

k, so I skimmed through a bunch of Wisdom games and games he played with Mala, and I think what I've learned is

I know what town-Wisdom looks like and this isn't that

absolutely nothing. Thought I'd get a read by showing that Wisdom tunneling Mala is usually more stubborn and less case-y but that's not even true.

Need to look through Mala's play again, see how much validity her wagon holds. Townread on her was entirely from twilight and D2.

[Mathdino]

Not Mafia and wisdom are coming.

Waiting on this; the way you see the entire gamestate affects the validity of your case.

Also I don't want to confbias myself by analysing it yet because I have a tendency of arguing with cases and convincing myself people are town because of it. So I'll take a look after I do my own Mala/Wisdom ISO reread.

[Mathdino]

I literally saw I think 8 people make that argument in all the meta I read xD

[Mathdino]

Finally. So I did this right before the mod locked the thread, coloured it afterwards. Will analyse based on NK flip in a sec.

Spoiler: VC IIoA

Structure:
[Voter] -> [Votee], [number of votes on Votee], [stated reason if any (I'll put a link if there's a bunch of reasoning)]
[Unvoter] XX [Unvotee], [number of votes on Unvotee], [stated reason if any]

acryon

->

Victor

, 1, RV (later says vote stands due to Victor's questioning/defending)

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, RV

Victor

->

Mathdino

, 1, RV

BMWS

->

TTH

, 1, RV

Wisdom

->

NM

, 1, RV

SilverWolf

->

Mathdino

, 2, RV/jokingly OMGUS

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, RV

Wisdom

XX

NM

, 0

Wisdom

->

Mathdino

, 3, "I like wagons"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, "this is not sitting well with me"

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 1, "it's all a reaction test"/"there's nothing to gain here"

Victor

XX

Mathdino

, 2

Victor

->

wgeurts

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

Victor

, 2, asking suspicious questions

TTH

->

Wisdom

, 2, "Not_Mafia and Wisdom have both telegraphed scumreads on Victor, but they seem a lot more guarded about it"

SilverWolf

XX

Mathdino

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Victor

, 3, "making way too much of a simple question as though you are looking for a reason to suspect someone"

Malakittens

XX

Wisdom

, 1

Malakittens

->

acryon

, 1, "I don't like Acyron injecting here"/forced looking posts

Newbie

->

wgeurts

, 2, reaction testing and general sketchiness

wgeurts

->

Newbie

, 1, "her vote was very opportunistic and he hasn't scum hunted"

Mathdino

XX

Victor

, 2

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 3, mason fishing

BMWS

XX

TTH

, 0

BMWS

->

wgeurts

, 4, "to add pressure on you so that you'll create a good defense to Mathdino's accusations"

wgeurts

XX

Newbie

wgeurts

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I'm town and I'd rather die quickly and give you info"

wgeurts

XX

wgeurts

, 4, "As requested"

Wisdom

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Wisdom

->

wgeurts

, 5, "I don't like this quick recovery"

wgeurts

->

Wisdom

, 2, =24679#p6313218]Here's the votepost and here's his case later on

SilverWolf

XX

Victor

, 1

SilverWolf

->

Wisdom

, 3, "You remind me of scum trying to push the easiest mislynch"

Newbie

XX

wgeurts

, 4

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 4, "I actually agree with the case [wgeurts] made against you"

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's the context but just read my case if you wanna know

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf

, 0

Mathdino

->

wgeurts

, 4, SilverWolf descended to 2nd on my scumlist

acryon

XX

Victor

, 0

acryon

->

SilverWolf

, 1, Here's his case and here's another

Mathdino

XX

wgeurts

, 3

Mathdino

->

SilverWolf

, 2, I didn't like her reaction to me/Wisdom/acryon

Malakittens

XX

acryon

, 0, "I do like Acyron's latest posts so .... yeah..."

Constantine

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

SilverWolf/Riddleton

, 1, she was getting replaced

Constantine

XX

Victor

, 0, no stated reason

NM

->

Victor

, 1, no stated reason

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, thinks I'm scum with Victor

BMWS

XX

wgeurts

, 2

BMWS

->

Constantine

, 1 "I don't like you, Constantine

Wisdom

XX

wgeurts

, 1

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 1, "I'm not happy with her play. She needs to do more, starting with explaining her reads."

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, pointing out associations

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0, "Emotion is a town tell"

Constantine

->

Victor

, 2, no stated reason

TTH

XX

Wisdom

, 3, confusion

wgeurts

XX

Wisdom

, 2

wgeurts

->

Constantine

, 3, "for all these comtradictions"

TTH

->

Victor

, 3, PoE and looking through ISO

TTH

XX

Victor

, 2, "I'm having a reference frame crisis."

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 1, let's not talk about this

Riddleton

XX

Wisdom

, 0

Riddleton

->

Victor

, 3, muddafuckin' case

TTH

->

Victor

, 4, here ya go

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, "bullshit about scumtells"

acryon

XX

Riddleton

, 0

acryon

->

Constantine

, 5, mini case

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 4

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, "more likely lynch"

Newbie

->

Victor

, 5, reasons above

Wisdom

XX

Constantine

, 3

Wisdom

->

Riddleton

, 2, probably same as me

wgeurts

XX

Constantine

, 2

wgeurts

->

Victor

, 6, no stated reason

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, "Riddleton's last post is convincing enough"

Wisdom

XX

Riddleton

, 0

Wisdom

->

Constantine

, 4, presumably to get a lynch

Malakittens

->

Victor

, 7, HAMMERTIME

Day's long enough that I don't want to have to do this again in full by twilight. This time this'll actually have a point, though.

Spoiler: VCI&A

Malakittens

->

Wisdom

, 1, not going to try to explain this

Riddleton

->

Malakittens

, 1, unknown

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-_-)

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Mathdino

, 1, disagreement on RVS tells

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 1, reasons already explained + bad lynching strategies

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 1, presumably D1 reasons + flip

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 0

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1, case

Wisdom

->

Malakittens

, 2, case

Not_Mafia

->

Wisdom

, 2, unknown

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, "I want to see what acryon has to say"

Constantine

XX

Mathdino

, 0

Constantine

->

acryon

, 1, unknown (-__-)

Wisdom

XX

Malakittens

, 1

Wisdom

->

Not_Mafia

, 1, not answering questions

wgeurts

->

Not_Mafia

, 2, ditto

acryon

->

Constantine

, 1, case + D1 reasons

borkjerfkin

->

Constantine

, 2, not answering questions or explaining arguments

borkjerfkin

XX

Constantine

, 1

borkjerfkin

->

Riddleton

, 2, Victor interactions

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Not_Mafia

, 3, pressure

Mathdino

XX

Not_Mafia

, 2, playing his town meta

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 2

Newbie

->

Wisdom

, 3, likes this post by acryon

Newbie

XX

Wisdom

, 2, wgeurts wrote a "solid case" on Mala

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 2, mason fishing

borkjerfkin

XX

Riddleton

, 0

borkjerfkin

->

Wisdom

, 3, because "1287 is absolute balls"

Mathdino

XX

Constantine

, 1, not feeding the troll

Mathdino

->

Riddleton

, 1

Constantine

XX

acryon

, 0

Constantine

->

Riddleton

, 2, to sheep

Riddleton

XX

Malakittens

, 0

Riddleton

->

Constantine

, 2, "The overreaction coupled with the hardcore defence of me makes me want to reevaluate my townread on him."

Mathdino

XX

Riddleton

, 1

Mathdino

->

Constantine

, 3, policy

wgeurts

XX

Not_Mafia

, 1

wgeurts

->

Malakittens

, 1, case

Okay, so here's the thing. We've established that the TTH NK is very WIFOMy. Could be to stop a Wisdom wagon, could be to implicate him, and TTH was probably the best NK for either of these purposes as she was one of few whose read on him was unmanipulatable. But here's the thing. His wagon is tiny. It starts with

Malakittens

, followed by

Newbie

, followed by

Not_Mafia

, followed by

borkjerfkin

.

But that's it.

I won't go so far as to say that Wisdom vs Malakittens is TvS, but I will say that there's no question that either Wisdom is scum, or scum is on his wagon and/or is trying to get towncred from calling him town.

Riddleton

hasn't spoken on Wisdom.

Constantine

blind defended him.

wgeurts

is flip flopping but naturally.

acryon

called him town but is barely defending him at all.

Constantine

is the only one that's really implicated here but [hope]we're lynching him anyway[/hope].

Of course, Wisdom as scum could probably push a TTH lynch fairly well, so that seems weird.

Edit: Goddammit. Got distracted for a few hours, came back, and realised how silly this all is. Not deleting because it has the VC stuff and this analysis is the whole reason I did the VC.
The main point that's not total WIFOM is Newbie, Constantine, and to a lesser extent borkjerfkin are acting really weird about Wisdom.
Also I approve of the above post.

[Mathdino]

Well, bork, considering you're telling me to "just keep doing my thing", I'm pretty sure you don't want a conversation at all.

Please discuss your vote on Wisdom.

Also for the record since I'm not going to stop until Constantine is lynched, just consider my HoS's unofficial votes.

HoS: Riddleton

[Mathdino]

Actually no that HoS was dumb consider acryon's prolly right about Const.

unHoS: Riddleton
HoS: borkjerfkin

until you explain.

[Mathdino]

I have. You're doing the same thing Constantine did earlier. I'm not going to see something new just because you tell me to reread something.

Wisdom has been pushing Malakittens and Not_Mafia. Go ooonnnn...

[Mathdino]

Read the fucking interactions between the people wisdom has been pushing today.

Okay, so Malakittens and Not_Mafia.

I'll also explain Mala more, I'm thinking Mala and not-mafia as the scum team now.

Don't think so. They voted me together, they defend each other.. it would be ridiculous if a scumteam was so obvious.

He pushed Mala, then pushed NM for fishiness after indicating he might be rethinking Mala, and then said that it's unlikely they're a team together. Should he be worried that they actually ARE a team? That people will go after him for pre-flip associations?

If I start talking about wisdom there's really no going back.

Wisdom wouldn't be wrong in claiming that he's pretty much the centre of a huge portion of this game, including the NKs, the VCs, wagon analysis, arguments, etc. Us all talking about Wisdom for a while would be healthy, IMO.

Edit: Oh shit.

[Mathdino]

unHoS: borkjerfkin
HoS: Wisdom

[Mathdino]

Holy shit, Wisdom is totally scum. Did a bunch of ISOs, it really does fit.
Probably the only person I'll concede the "Get Constantine the hell out of this game" thing on.

Edit: Doesn't matter. Even if this discussion ends up turning this into mountainous, scum is COMPLETELY screwed by this point.