Open 591: C9++, The Lunatic Ayslum (Game Over: Town Win!)

[DarkLightA]

/conform

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Amy Farrah Fowler

You ain't no resident here!

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alchemist21

[DarkLightA]

Why not?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Amy Farrah Fowler

[DarkLightA]

That is a hilariously brilliant explanation!

[DarkLightA]

@Collatz - Why change your vote?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Collatz

[DarkLightA]

^^ serious vote

[DarkLightA]

I just saw midget as town, one shot vig a person who got a guilty on scum....because he wasnt reading the thread.

if all things constant and someone has to die today, it should be him.

Link?

[DarkLightA]

I found it. Open 558 Hope plus 1. Lost in lylo when I CCed scum claiming and was lynched.

What is this game? Doesn't look like what the others have been referring to RE:random

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Were you not informed that you should confirm in-thread?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Collatz

Sometimes it's nice to jump around and see what sticks. I'm happy with BBT and his response—if anything it's more of a townslip if all role PMs end with the same confirm message—but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I don't like Collatz' response to this though. I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell. What merit does vote hopping this early in the game have to scum that it doesn't have to town? What would make scum more inclined to vote hop than town? I don't know, and I don't think Collatz knows either. I think he's just looking for an easy way to seem pro-town.

[DarkLightA]

I don't like the soft-defence of me.

Do you not agree?

[DarkLightA]

I may have misinterpreted what you said: are you talking about #64?

[DarkLightA]

Ah, I thought it was a reference to me.

[DarkLightA]

What I find worst is that when I called you out for switching your vote to Alchemist21 you switched it back to Amy Farrah Fowler.

Do you think scum is more likely to do that than town?

[DarkLightA]

Why would scum do it?

[DarkLightA]

What does scum stand to gain?

[DarkLightA]

Why would scum do it?

Denies town information/pressure in the starting phase.

I'm talking to Collatz—I'm interested in his opinions, not theory.

[DarkLightA]

Why would scum switch their vote? I don't know. But I also can't see Town switching their vote. In fact, I find it less likely for Town to switch their vote simply because the will not want to stand out in any way. As for what scum would stand to gain from it I, again, do not know. The whole thing has kind of confused me but when it happened used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game. As for why I still think your are scummy it's because of your vote on BBT and because of the way you voted for me once I called you out on your vote hopping and voted for you because of it

Love this.

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: BlueBloodedToffee

Were you not informed that you should confirm in-thread?

I am curious.

I didnt know I was suppose to confirm in thread before I came to this thread. only found that out once I started reading the thread.

sooooo

am I scummy?

I'm happy with BBT and his response—if anything it's more of a townslip if all role PMs end with the same confirm message—but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

[DarkLightA]

I'll respond to #91 soonish, there's a lot to talk about.

[DarkLightA]

Alright, I'll respond to this post as it's going to lose its relevance if I put it off till tomorrow:

Why would scum switch their vote? I don't know. But I also can't see Town switching their vote. In fact, I find it less likely for Town to switch their vote simply because the will not want to stand out in any way.

So by now we've established that Collatz doesn't know how my actions were scummy.

Apparently his view is

that town has a

stronger

desire to not stand out than scum. This is the opposite of what is actually (or

should

actually) be the case.

Now, the case is absurd, and Collatz is slowly collapsing as this is pushed. However, I think this might hint at him being a newer player being an issue here, with a lacking understanding of the game nuances. I can see a newer player jumping on something suspicious without considering whether it is actually likely to come from scum. I'm not letting Collatz off the hook, but it's a perspective that must be considered.

As for what scum would stand to gain from it I, again, do not know. The whole thing has kind of confused me but when it happened used it as an oppurtunity to try and get some information early in the game. As for why I still think your are scummy it's because of your vote on BBT and because of the way you voted for me once I called you out on your vote hopping and voted for you because of it

Regarding the last part, I did justify my vote as Alchemist's response being "a hilariously brilliant explanation." At this stage everything was naturally a bit tongue in cheek as it was the first page of the game.

Collatz' explanation here though is something

I do not like

. Read through his iso and you'll find that he spent the beginning talking about how it was so scummy, bla bla bla. When I started pushing, he says:

(...) at the early stages of a game where there isn't much info I treated it as more of a scum move than town move.

Turns out, this (#91) is the first and only place he references voting me to gather information. I find it suspicious how related to my own talk of information gathering in #70. He seems to be feeding off that notion. And he doesn't even stick to it, going back to it being suspicious behavior soon enough:

The argument of it putting pressure on multiple people really isn't valid when the votes happened so quickly that the voted person didn't have a time to see the post, let alone respond. By votehoping so quickly he removed any kind of pressure he could have put on the people he was voting for which defeats the purpose of the hop in the first place.

Am I the only one who finds this to be suspiscous?

Sorry about the long post.

Tl;dr: Collatz flipflops between explanations and looks for something to stick. Also, read the goddamn post.

[DarkLightA]

Is what Collatz said alignment indicative or bad theory or both? I'm a little confused

I see it as either:
1. A scum tell
2. A newbie tell

And in this case it would be either just 2 or a mix of the two. But this is bothering me—there is a real chance that Collatz is not scum, especially considering that he's a newer player—but I think he's the best bet for now.

Essentially, Collatz is admitting that—in hindsight—my play wasn't particularly alignment indicative. What I'm trying to think through is whether a newer player would pick up on this in the initial stages of the game. Of course my play could have been seen as suspicious at first glance, especially in the early stages where not much else is going on. I'm thinking that newer-player-Collatz is more likely to have tried to exploit it for its suspicious look than actually challenging me due to him viewing me as scum.

[DarkLightA]

What makes you think that's not the case here?

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, that's a very good point. Reubus talks about "last time" he saw it:

I do agree with you though the last time I was in a similar situation it ended up being a noob townie but that's just one occasion.

VOTE: Collatz

But if he's only played in two games before that's a deceiving statement.

[DarkLightA]

@Collatz, you make some fair points. Re: gathering information I see you mentioned it in #105 too. I missed that. I don't see how you talk about information gathering in #81 though.

This is what I meant by my gathering information. It's between the lines, but pretty clear:

but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I see what you're saying about the town vs scum divide on suspicious behavior, but you're wrong (you'll usually be wrong anyway). But that's okay, it's a learning process. You'll find that scum in almost all cases have more to lose from a lynch than town, and thus will be more hesitant to stand out.

I don't like the new "information gathering" explanation you've come up with, especially seeing as it was only something that came out after you were put under considerable pressure. It seems like this is something you've made up retroactively rather than the initial intentions in your actions. That's okay, but I'd like you to be honest if that's the case, because it's not looking too good the way you're portraying it now.

Your posts are increasing giving off a feeling of willingness to cooperate though, which I find pleasing.

[DarkLightA]

Care to shed some light?

[DarkLightA]

Fair point.

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, why haven't you come up with anything productive so far? You've asked questions and made empty statements.

(...)one could argue (...) I've got nothing better to do with my vote (...)

Why the distancing from the vote? Do you not stand by your actions?

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, why haven't you come up with anything productive so far? You've asked questions and made empty statements.

(...)one could argue (...) I've got nothing better to do with my vote (...)

Why the distancing from the vote? Do you not stand by your actions?

Voting is the commitment. Besides what do you consider productive ? Do you consider yourself productive ?

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

[DarkLightA]

All I'm saying is that that vote looked like you were setting yourself up extremely well to jump off that vote with no further consequences at a later point. I don't like that.

I consider myself productive.

So I'm setting myself up to do the same thing that you just done and that Collatz is calling you on ? Aren't you a bit hypocritical ? I don't really like how you consider yourself above all reproach especially when you're pulling this kind of shit off. Cognitive dissonance at its best.

Listen: I'm not calling you out on the voting or on wanting to gather information, that's more than fine, but I'm just questioning the way you're doing it. You're misrepresenting what I'm arguing.

[DarkLightA]

I just saw midget as town, one shot vig a person who got a guilty on scum....because he wasnt reading the thread.

if all things constant and someone has to die today, it should be him.

Link?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=60843

Walk me through where abouts Zebulin said he got a guilty.

[DarkLightA]

Otolia, how do you feel your play now compares to how it was back when you last played mafia on the forums?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:

[DarkLightA]

RE: Otolia

You're deflecting

What am I deflecting? Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share.

and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done.

Nowhere in my posts did I say: Oh yeah, I mean, uhh... I'm just voting because there's not really a better thing to do. So I guess one could argue that Collatz is acting suspiciously.

That's an imitation of what you did in #141. If you wanted to gather information from a vote you should be direct and to-the-point. The way you phrased that post in particular makes it seem like you're trying to avoid being held responsible for the vote.

So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

This is interesting: do you think I am needlessly nitpicky in my play? Because I think I'm making perfectly valid points.
In some ways the latter statement is true—I do try to provoke responses—but that's a legitimate strategy. You're trying to paint me as scum. Why?

[DarkLightA]

Good to see you again RC. I looked over the game we met in semi-recently cause I swear I thought your avatar was so scummy that you couldn't possibly be scum. You won the game... ....barely...

Either way, fun to see you again.

[DarkLightA]

RE: Otolia

That's an imitation of what you did in #141. If you wanted to gather information from a vote you should be direct and to-the-point. The way you phrased that post in particular makes it seem like you're trying to avoid being held responsible for the vote.

I meant to elaborate on this and forgot. I read over Otolia's play in a game he played before leaving, about 2 years ago. Check out this, Otolia's second post of the game. It's a brilliant post. This was played as vanilla townie. This makes me think Otolia is holding back in this game.

[DarkLightA]

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Nope. It's to do with a shift in my reads.

[DarkLightA]

RC, I like your introductory post. Your case against Marcrell is compelling. I'll look into it later when I have time.

mod can you kill that double post?

I think it's better to let everything stand.

[DarkLightA]

That's my peace offering, don't waste it.

Okay, before I read that: WTF. Peace offering?

[DarkLightA]

´

You're deflecting

What am I deflecting? Ask me straight-up what I haven't answered well enough and I'll be happy to share.

Well that :

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Edit : Which you answered when I was writing. But it brings me to my next point.

Hold up. This is obviously

not

what you were referring to when you made the original post because you asked he that

AFTER SAYING I WAS DEFLECTING

. See those convenient post numbers? You say I'm deflecting post number 168 in post 167? Yeah. Right.

DarkLightA

: Why are you unvoting now ? Is it because of Collatz's last post ?

Nope. It's to do with a shift in my reads.

That's fine and all but what about this :

@Collatz, you make some fair points. Re: gathering information I see you mentioned it in #105 too. I missed that. I don't see how you talk about information gathering in #81 though.

This is what I meant by my gathering information. It's between the lines, but pretty clear:

but I like to vote to test people, get used to it.

I see what you're saying about the town vs scum divide on suspicious behavior, but you're wrong (you'll usually be wrong anyway). But that's okay, it's a learning process. You'll find that scum in almost all cases have more to lose from a lynch than town, and thus will be more hesitant to stand out.

I don't like the new "information gathering" explanation you've come up with, especially seeing as it was only something that came out after you were put under considerable pressure. It seems like this is something you've made up retroactively rather than the initial intentions in your actions. That's okay, but I'd like you to be honest if that's the case, because it's not looking too good the way you're portraying it now.

Your posts are increasing giving off a feeling of willingness to cooperate though, which I find pleasing.

Would it be fair if I accused you of trying to escape the responsibility of the unvote by setting yourself up a few post before ?

---

Spoiler: Otolia versus DarkLightA

and I don't see the difference between what I've done and what you've done.

Nowhere in my posts did I say: Oh yeah, I mean, uhh... I'm just voting because there's not really a better thing to do. So I guess one could argue that Collatz is acting suspiciously.

That's an imitation of what you did in #141. If you wanted to gather information from a vote you should be direct and to-the-point. The way you phrased that post in particular makes it seem like you're trying to avoid being held responsible for the vote.

I'm trying to avoid being held responsible by actively engaging with you ? W/E

So in essence, either you needlessly nitpicking to pass as town or you're just pointing fingers at everything that moves in the hope that you can pounce on it.

This is interesting: do you think I am needlessly nitpicky in my play? Because I think I'm making perfectly valid points.
In some ways the latter statement is true—I do try to provoke responses—but that's a legitimate strategy. You're trying to paint me as scum. Why?

So what am I doing then ? I voted you, the same way you voted Collatz, and I'm trying to provoke answers from you (just like you did with him and are doing with me). Why do you hold me to a different standard than yourself ?

I don't. All I'm saying is that I make cases and ask questions and make statements and theories. I don't paraphrase people's actions in ways that make them look more scummy. If there's something I do that's scummy, tell me so. Don't paint it with adjectives.

Why do you base so much of your argumentation on ONE post where I voted, disregarding what I've done afterwards. Sure my vote wasn't the best vote I've ever done, fine. You extorted that much out of me. But the game has to start somewhere. And I believe that I'm doing the same thing in essence that you're doing.

I've been engaging you for a while, and you're very wrong if you think I'm only focusing on that.

Conclusion : UNVOTE: I think I've made my point. You're doing the same thing that I am. That's my peace offering, don't waste it.

So that brings me to this, which is very interesting indeed. I see what I'm doing as scumhunting, and I'd assume you would do the same. However, this statement suggests you feel like it's more of a person-to-person shit throwing contest. You're more than welcome to focus on someone else if you wish, but you're choosing to fight fire with fire, which doesn't exactly paint you in the best light.

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Otolia

[DarkLightA]

I've tried to meet you halfway because I believed that since we were essentially doing the same thing, we must be both town

Umm.. Yeah. Yeah that makes

perfect

sense.[/sarcasm]

and you unvoted so I just thought we could reach an understanding.

You do realize I wasn't voting you before?

Especially this quote :

I'm an obvious target because of my vote hopping, and he's taking full advantage of this to make a case against me without questioning whether it's actually a scumtell.

It's like he was waiting for someone to call him on it so he could pounce and start his case.

Essentially, yeah, almost. But again you're making all my actions seem scummy even if they are perfectly reasonable. My initial play was (and still is to some degree) intended to provoke reactions. It doesn't constitute framing or entrapment for that reason. I'm not waiting for someone that will fall for my trap, rather, I'm seeing how people react and judge what seems the least like pro-town behavior.

[DarkLightA]

The first is that I'm his surest Townread. Usually people who haven't played with me before null or lean-scum on me, or at best mildly townread me. It's usually scum or people I've played with before that put me as a top townread this early.

I'm also suspicious of Reubus, but I really don't like this argument.

[DarkLightA]

Good post RC. I like your analysis. I'll respond in greater depth later.

@Reubus:

How likely do you think it is that Otolia and I are scum together?

[DarkLightA]

@RC

:

Some reads/analysis of yourselves are not up to par

with the rest.

Do you think it's the case ?

You aren't glossing over anything in particular. What I meant precisely is : when you answer things in such a format (list of quote), not everything you say has the same value nor the same reach. I can't say I like the format you use since there isn't a lot of formatting and it's hard to read the intent of your post.

It's more a question of playstyle than content though

.

Ugh.

[DarkLightA]

BBT, that was good.

[DarkLightA]

Re: RC's analysis of Marcrell:

I read through Marcrell's iso in response to RC's eagerness and came to a few similar conclusions.

1) In post 53, he votes ckd because he doesn't "see" ckd's vote. Presumably this means he doesn't agree with the vote, but he doesn't take the time to explain why. Further, he abandons his "semi-serious" vote on Alchemist and has yet to address him since. Now, I disagree with his ckd vote on principle, but I'd be open to hearing his opinion as to why it's a better vote than the one on Alchemist (or voting someone else), but he doesn't give us that.

I found the RVS vote particularly strange. The random vote itself bore no indication of seriousness, but then this is pointed out in a subsequent post. That's weird. Voting because you don't see someone's point isn't good, but it was early in the game, barely out of RVS. Not a scumtell imo.

2) I see a chainsaw defense of Otolia in post 85. Marcrell hasn't talked about Otolia at all this game, and yet he's coming to his defense in what he sees as BBT's nonsensical and defensive posturing. Additionally, this is the strongest he's come down on any player thus far, so it seems to me like this would be a better spot for his vote than ckd is. This speaks even more to the ckd vote not being genuine.

2. I pointed out the post is completely bonkers. Makes no sense. Otalia made a logical guess. Blue starts freaking out. I pointed it out. Making no sense isn't a scum tell, it means one either has miscommunicated or your idea was crazy.

Did BBT start freaking out? In my eyes, he's saying that my argument was sensible. Otolia attacked me for questioning him, and he's telling Otolia that he sees the point. Marcrell is the one creating scumtells out of this air in this situation. I think 85 is Marcrell's worst post so far in the game. What struck me more than what RC pointed out, at least when reading it initially, was his response to me in the post. I ask Collatz a question about why scum would change their vote like I did in RVS, and Marcrell steps in to answer this, of all questions. It seems to me like he is trying to "spread scuminess" by suggesting why it could potentially be done by scum.

In essence, I feel like his posts are dealing more with "pushing scuminess" onto people than "pulling scuminess" from the conversations and using that for reads. RC might have a point here.

I really don't like his recent post on Otolia. It came out of nowhere from previous positivity towards Otolia. I don't know what to make of it. I think if Otolia isn't scum then Marcrell will quite probably be. Can't rule out bussing or marcrell-town either though.

[DarkLightA]

Llamafluff, good first post. You bring up some fresh ideas which is nice.

You mention Marcrell as scummy in your post, but then don't mention him when it comes to voting. How does he stand compared to RM/RS in your eyes? What about me?
Considering the whole controversy with RM and presumably his meta, though I haven't looked into it, do you not think he might just be town not paying very much attention?

[DarkLightA]

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

What are you saying here?

[DarkLightA]

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

What are you saying here?

Nvm, thought it was from Llama. No wonder I got confused.

[DarkLightA]

I was leaning Otilia town but regarding the aggressive nature of his defence I need to rethink that now.

Fist of all I've read over the Otolia wagon again and I just don't buy it.

?

[DarkLightA]

Spoiler: RS post

Sorry guys was very busy this weekend, let's get back into it.

Fist of all I've read over the Otolia wagon again and I just don't buy it. There's nothing at the moment that makes me believe he will flip scum. The RM wagon is more viable than the Otolia wagon as I see it but both of the wagons don't seem reasonable enough for me to place a vote yet.

@RM

can you explain your play-style to us and why it works?

@mnemonicdevice

I agree with the logic here, but from past games I have played with RM he does start picking up after day one. I'm going to just leave him be, he should be evident enough to read by day 3, if not even by late day 2.

Considering this post:

They're not scummy posts coming from RM. It may be all null, but a policy lynch here really isn't going to do anything but give scum an easy wagon to push.

What part is null?

The part where a third of his posts are concerned about CKD and the whole policy lynch thing?
The sheep vote on collatz?
The vote on otolia for what is at best a vote for a null tell?

Even if we are going to go "oh well he always lurks so lets ignore him" those are still legitimate tells. Plus is he normally this non-game related? In almost a week he has made maybe three posts that can be called game related.

Out of curiosity... for those ignoring RM are you just essentially saying "well if he is scum I am willing to just give him a free pass?" Maybe I don't have enough experience around RM, but I don't really think he is a juggernaut as town starting D2 that would justify giving him a free pass. What if he is scum? We just let him have next to no interactions and are cool with it or something?

Would you still advocate not lynching RM?

And what are your thoughts on Otolia? You haven't moved your vote from RVS or justified leaving your vote there nor have you actually read anyone.

@RC

so who are your current scumreads?

I'm leaning town on RC, the analysis he's providing seems pretty sound to me, not much more I can elaborate

@Marcell

you didn't bring Otolia to L-2, which to me means one of two things- A) You've got stronger scumreads. B) You don't want him lynched. Judging by your posts after your unvote, scenario A looks a lot less likely. Do you read him town? If so why?


Town-reading LlamaFluff for his convincing ISO and his move to mass-claim in #204, both of which point towards him being town.

This is one of those posts that looks good on the surface, but says very little. A lot of questions, not many statements or arguments. Especially the addressing of Marcrell looks odd to me. I really don't understand what he's saying here... Marcrell quite clearly stated that he doesn't want an immediate lynch. He's afraid of a speedlynch and that's completely reasonable. Don't you think so?

[DarkLightA]

People who aren't voting right now, why ?

Those are just the latecomers+ Innocent child but your question is just as valid as ever, why haven't they got around to it? (minus IC that is)

It's stuff like this that makes me question Reubus. He's new to the game, but it seems like he's trying to appear knowledgable and all and ends up just coming with tons of empty statements.

[DarkLightA]

I'm going to say that Randommidget should probably be lynched at some point before it gets lylo or something because then he's a giant liability. However, these things aren't often scum tells.

I hate this so much.

[DarkLightA]

In fact I'm starting to feel a Blue lynch might be decent.

Why? You haven't said much about him.

[DarkLightA]

I have reread Otolia's ISO a few times now and I'm beginning to think my scum read was stronger than it should have been (I'm still scum-reading him but not as strongly).

This is good. I'm quite confident that BBT is town.

[DarkLightA]

It confuses me that everyone seems okay with lynching Reubus.

[DarkLightA]

From my perspective Reubus appears to be the compromise lynch candidate. Maybe I'm wrong.

[DarkLightA]

Am I wrong? I think Reubus would be the lynch leading to the least tears.

[DarkLightA]

Not at all. I'm being pedantic.

It's not even close that everyone is OK with lynching Reubus.

A few people have expressed they would be OK with it. Nothing more than that. I mean, I don't even think he is the leading wagon.

You're right. I think it's just struck me to the extent that it looks more significant than it actually is. I'm just saying that I find it bothersome that he's being mentioned as a compromise. It seems that many are in the stage of "wouldn't mind him being lynched" and I'm wondering whether that is likely to happen if scum is being targeted. By all means, Reubus might be scum, and his play is scummy imo, but I don't know about the whole atmosphere around him.

[DarkLightA]

Spoiler: Shit-ton of analysis

Spoiler: On randommidget and reactions

He looks very attentist, particularly in this post :

@redcoyote im always like this day 1. Flips are like coffee for me. I need them to get going.
So are we doing the tier thing?

But then mnemonicdevice is doing the same below and gets a pass ...

RM can you start doing something so you don't get lynched please.

I don't like BBT's attack here. Sure RM isn't participating a lot but his argument denotes a low level of involvement in the lynch. I'm a massive proponent of Policy Lynch but when I decided on a PL, I don't stop unless there is a town consensus. PL are strong because there is a cohesion around them. Menacing someone of a PL without trying to federate is either bad PL implementation or a scumtell.

And im concerned that you say there is at least one scum in RM and RS and then passively defend RM a few posts later.

I don't see a case that makes sense on Otolia. I do see all of my scum reads attacking them though.

There are far scummier people in this game right now than Random. I feel that should be obvious.

Lynching Random achieves nothing. As someone just stated, it's a very easy wagon for scum to jump on and a low information lynch.

Can you decide on which side of the fence you're on ? Oh right, you're on the other wagon. Alchemist said the same thing as him btw.

People, there is no easy lynch for scum. As a scum, you can't help but analyze the potentiality of every wagon and the likelihood you'll get caught for saying this and that. The only people who can lynch without fear are townies.

I'm going to say that Randommidget should probably be lynched at some point before it gets lylo or something because then he's a giant liability

. However, these things aren't often scum tells. Being barely off from flaking and completely useless isn't a scum tell, and so if you have any scum reads or something I'd suggest trying to vote them instead. If not, then the day can fall to this lynch, but it's really more of a getting it out of the way thing.

HELL FUCKING NO ! HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING DEFINETELY SCUMMY LIKE LYING ABOUT HIS ROLE OR HIS NIGHT ACTIONS. NO !

Conclusion (Partial) : Linear reading didn't bring much. I probably need to read Llamafluff case before I make a decision. In any case, it brought forth a lot of various reactions and some are very questionable.

---

Spoiler: On everyone's town read

It appears to me that a lot of people are putting the same people as town : DarkLightA, RedCoyote. Now let's put aside their contribution for a moment and ask ourselves how the hell is everyone reading them town ? I am put off by this. What I mean is twofold:

• Some of the people reading them as town are doing it for love points. Being likeable is always useful to scum.
  
• This is applicable mainly to DLA but to some extent to BBT and (maybe someone else but I can't find it anymore). They have the tendency to distribute brownie points for what they describe as good posts. It's still early in the game to see in this approach as something else than encouragement for town activities but we should be alert if those become more opportunistic.

I know that's far-fetched right now but it's something town hasn't talked about so far and I wanted to bring it forth.

EDIT :

We may have masons in the setup, so my arguments have less impact now.

---

Spoiler: Collatz's inactivity

Mostly just a prod dodge.

UNVOTE: DarkLightA

I liked the way he questioned my actions and the way he has responed to the questions he has been asked by others. I'll post more later. Right now I'm going through everyone's ISO.

Everybody is keen to point out randommidget or mnemonicdevice lazyness/inactivity but Collatz gets a pass ? Look, I prod-dodged too so I'm not in the best position to talk but since Collatz was attacked by DLA, the wagon has died, everyone is moving on forgetting him and DLA has MASSIVE towncred. Everybody is the town is looking so freaking positive. It weirds me out.

---

This post I don't understand. What do you mean "not everything has the same value or the same reach?"

I can't find the right word unfortunately. RC's post was mish-mash of various quotes without organization. Some are good and bring things to town others less so. I find it hard to read. Thus the question. Probably not my best question ever ^^ I can

The Otolia wagon was Mnem, Lucky, Darklight, Random and myself. I'm going to assume that the null/scum read is me. I'm very interested to see why you're scum-reading me.

Mnemonic was still in RVS.

PS : I haven't paid enough attention to Reubus, I have some comments on him and its reaction which should arrive tomorrow.

You raise some interesting points (see what I did there?)

This is the kind of post I was looking for from your meta. You had this kind of play from the beginning in your games before leaving the site. Why have you waited this long to bring it back, only after a significant amount of pressure?

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:

I have to rethink.

[DarkLightA]

Good point. What do you think it means?

[DarkLightA]

I ruffle feathers when I want to ruffle feathers.

[DarkLightA]

190

[DarkLightA]

298 - Darklight, if you think Reubus is scummy, you should vote him.

I find others more likely to be scum. Mainly Otolia.

299 - Darklight, what points did you find interesting?

The point about "brownie points" I especially liked, and some of the other analysis is reasonable. I don't really agree with much of it, but I like the effort and thoughts that went into it. On the other hand, this feels fake:

In post 268, Marcrell wrote:
I'm going to say that Randommidget should probably be lynched at some point before it gets lylo or something because then he's a giant liability. However, these things aren't often scum tells. Being barely off from flaking and completely useless isn't a scum tell, and so if you have any scum reads or something I'd suggest trying to vote them instead. If not, then the day can fall to this lynch, but it's really more of a getting it out of the way thing.

HELL FUCKING NO ! HE HASN'T DONE ANYTHING DEFINETELY SCUMMY LIKE LYING ABOUT HIS ROLE OR HIS NIGHT ACTIONS. NO !

I don't know what to make of it really. Looking back, the town reads argument looks like an ad hominem argument, and I'm not quite sure whether town-Otolia would do it. Basically, it seems more like an attempt to stay alive than to further the town cause.

[DarkLightA]

hey Darklight, I am still curious about this.

Walk me through where abouts Zebulin said he got a guilty.

why?

Sorry, I read this last night and then forgot to respond today. There was an ordeal about RM's performance in an old game. I wanted to check it out. Couldn't find what they were referring to, and therefore asked where the stated claim was in the game. Then I promptly forgot about it.

[DarkLightA]

unvote

vote Reubus

my spidey sense is tingling.

Why didn't you explain your vote here with more than just "spidey sense?"

actually the more I think about it, the stranger and out of place this post is. I just finished doing a giant wall of words and you have chosen this to comment on? you have posted several times since I made this vote. WHY NOW?! are you asking about. lead me through the thought process behind this.

If my memory serves me right, the issue was that RM said that whoever was accusing him of not paying attention and misvigging was exaggerating the claims. I wanted to see if that was the case, as that could possibly indicate that someone was pushing a mislynch as a policy lynch.

[DarkLightA]

328 - DLA, I asked you to flesh this out for a reason. You have given me another generic comment saying 'other analysis was reasonable.' What analysis? Why was it reasonable? Specific details please.

Also, this feels like a contradiction;
In post 328, DarkLightA wrote:
The point about "brownie points" I especially liked, and some of the other analysis is reasonable. I don't really agree with much of it

So you liked the 'brownie points', you thought 'some of the analysis was reasonable' and you 'didn't agree with much of it?'

This needs clearing up.

There's only so much I can say. I liked the initiative showed by Otolia. I liked the arguments that hadn't been seen before. What I meant was that while there was much I didn't agree with, I liked seeing original thoughts coming from Otolia. Arguments can be reasonable without me agreeing with them. E.g. the brownie points, I like the idea and I appreciate the thought, but I don't agree with the argument cause, you know, I'm town.

[DarkLightA]

I just realized this guy STILL isn't voting while posting lame stuff like this,

I also would like to see Collatz post more, though I'm not sure that it's worth a vote

This made me laugh.

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Reubus Swagrid

L-1

Claim time.

[DarkLightA]

Hmm... Maybe I'll have a look at random today.

[DarkLightA]

I feel like RandomMidget is trying to appear more productive than he actually is (eg. in the quote-walls, see his ISO). That's why that insight from him strikes me as odd. It seems to me like the kind of thing that would come from scum, after all he would in that case have had a few days to think things through with his buddies, and coming with a statement like that is a way to utilize that thinking to appear productive as town.

[DarkLightA]

How do we know there is a doctor in this setup?

We don't. If there were one, he'd be protecting Lucky, and a scum nightkill would be wasted if they tried attacking him with a doc protecting him. It's basic scum strategy that you don't attack the only confTown player if there could be a doc in the game.

I think we were wanting Random to answer this.

[DarkLightA]

Hmm... Maybe I'll have a look at random today.

Why Random?

Why are you not following up on your Otolia scum-read from D1?

I never said I wasn't. Random has just been off my radar.

[DarkLightA]

You were wrong.

[DarkLightA]

Alchemist, do you think a scum team consisting of myself, Otolia and Collatz is likely?

Do votes carry over each day?

Trying too hard to play the newbie card.

Dislike this.

I don't like this post.

[DarkLightA]

Explain how that doesn't contradict this:

I would like to see Collatz, DLA,

and

Otoila hang, preferably in that order.

[DarkLightA]

Alchy, I want you to be town, but that's bullshit and you know it.

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Alchemist21

I think some pressure here would be in order.

[DarkLightA]

480 - What don't you like about it?

You were the third person to comment on it, and your criticism is at best exaggerated. From my perspective Collatz came with a reasonable question and I could see myself asking the same in that position given that the votecount wasn't reset in the first post of the day. There's no reasonable reason for Collatz to "play the noob card".

483 - Alch, I don't think it's very likely all 3 of Collatz/DLA/Otolia are scum. I still read as Collatz as town for his earlier play (he needs to start contributing though) and if there is scum in those three I think it's likely to be DLA.

486 - LOL, wtf is this shit? 'I want to town read you, but if you attack me, I have no choice but to assume you're not town'.

DLA looks like a fine ass lynch toDay.

489 - RC, you're wrong regarding Otolia and Random. Let me show you;

(...)

492 - Bad vote from DLA. OMGUS much?

VOTE: DLA

You're missing the point. I've liked Alchemist's play so far, and have had a town lean on him. However, this:

I would like to see Collatz, DLA, and Otoila hang, preferably in that order.

looks like a scumslip to me. Hence why I asked Alchemist whether he thought we were all scum together and he basically says yes, no and maybe in the same post. If scum, Alchemist appears to be keeping open all directions to go in, but from the previous quote his ulterior motive appears to be getting us lynched regardless of what happens.

[DarkLightA]

I want to have Marcrell and MneumonicDevice figured out this Day phase.

We can agree on that at least

DLA, that's nowhere near a scumslip. I don't know how you can even come to that conclusion. It's quite obvious that he means to say that those are his top three scumreads in descending order... I don't want to speak for him, but that sentence implies nothing about you three being scum together or not.

I disagree. It may not be a scumslip, I agree, but it does look like it potentially is. The way I read his initial post and his follow-up, he doesn't put much thought into what the flip result is in whether he wants to continue the proposed lynch order.

DLA, can you show me what specifically you like about Alchemist's play D1?

Essentially my town-read was based on a lack of scum tells. There wasn't anything in particular that screamed town, it was more based on the lack of anything screaming scum.

[DarkLightA]

This post by Otolia is mindblowing:

Spoiler: Otolia

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

This here is pretty a pretty weak reason to change a vote, especially considering how much he believes I am scum.

You're not in my top 2 (Randommidget & BBT). When I voted you in D1 shortly before I did a re-read as an incentive to keep your promises to town. Considering there isn't a lot of people who can say that this game, it shouldn't worry you that much.

So why do you feel like I'm persecuting you ?

You might be right ehoever daid collatz wasnt scummy. I just remembered that he reminds me of kelbris who ends up in similar situations.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: otolia

Any reasoning behind your vote or did you just realize that because everyone is listing me as scum, I would potentially be an easy for a lowlife like you ?

[truncated]

Otolia appears to be responding to the same post twice in two separate quotes(?) and also calls RandomMidget a "lowlife". Ad hominems don't help a case.

BBT, why did you start posting like RedCoyote ? I prefered when you were obnoxious and couldn't keep your words. At least that was easy to spot.

This is also strange. To my eyes it seems like Otolia is saying (if indirectly) that BBT's playstyle change makes him look less scummy, and labeling that as a negative thing. Has Otolia decided that BBT is scum regardless of future posts?

I'm gonna park my vote here for the time being as no one seems particularly keen on Alchemist yet.

UNVOTE: UNVOTE:
VOTE: Otolia

[DarkLightA]

Shouldn't he be a null read, then? He hasn't done anything townie, he hasn't done anything scummy...that equals null, right?

I usually work with more of an innocent-unless-proven-guilty strategy.

[DarkLightA]

It doesn't.

[DarkLightA]

So how do you plan on sorting MD and Marcrell?

It would be based on iso.

[DarkLightA]

In your first post, I'm addressing 2 different persons and thus I quote 2 different part of the discussion. Oh and lowlife == scum. There was a misunderstanding that we cleared in #512. So your argument kinda falls flat there.

Fair enough. I realize I misinterpreted your quoting.

As for the second part, I already consider BBT scummy. I've posted why numerous times (hint: he contradicts himself all the time) but nobody seems interested in seeing him as anything but town. And yes when a change of playstyle of someone I consider scum makes him look less scummy to everyone else, then it's a bad thing obviously.

That's scummy. You're not willing to change your opinion.

Is that all you can do DLA ? Because that's a very poor post you made. Seems like you're still riding your town-cred from D1. Where is the aggressiveness you displayed when you attacked me on D1 ? It seems to me it was all for show.

VOTE: DarkLightA

But this is brilliant, as it's even more scummy than anything I quoted. You're back to this boxing game attitude of yours. If I'm not completely mistaken, I'm not your top scumread. You transfer your vote to me because... I made some arguments about you? You're not supporting a wagon as no one else is voting me. Is it just to discredit my argument? You're not even making a case against me, you're simply responding to my points and using that as justification to vote me.

[DarkLightA]

By your own words, I'm consistent with myself. You aren't. That's a big issue.

Is this in response to my changing views?

[DarkLightA]

495 - What does being the 3rd person to comment on it have to do with it, DLA? The reason Collatz might be trying to use the noobie card is because it's good reasoning to cover any potential slips/bad play.

I always find it suspicious when people jump on a case acting without regarding previous arguments on the case. But it doesn't really matter. You're town.

547 - Otolia really trying to deflect away from Marcrell here. If Otolia is scum, Marcrell is very likely scum as well.

Fair point.

[DarkLightA]

If I'm not completely mistaken, I'm not your top scumread. You transfer your vote to me because... I made some arguments about you? You're not supporting a wagon as no one else is voting me. Is it just to discredit my argument? You're not even making a case against me, you're simply responding to my points and using that as justification to vote me.

he is the leading wagon, as scum, wouldnt it make more sense to join an already established wagon to try to save himself?

also, my last vote, I didnt make (post) a case. I just voted. does that make me scummy?

Yes, that's essentially what I'm saying. His vote on me would be more sensible if I were a wagon. Now it just looks like pure OMGUS to what he likes to call the "DLA vs Otolia" case. He feels the need to fight fire with fire, which seems suspicious to me.

[DarkLightA]

EDITED.

here is a preview.

vote Alchemist21

vote mnemonicdevice
vote Marcrell
vote DarkLightA

I think these slots need pressure today.

Neat! Why the change?

[DarkLightA]

547 - Otolia really trying to deflect away from Marcrell here. If Otolia is scum, Marcrell is very likely scum as well.

I dont see this. I read this as Ot questioning why RC has only focused on Marcell. If Ot and Marcell are scum together, this was a horrible post linking them together.

BBT, is there a chance you got a bit of the tunnel vision?

also, is this post "deflecting" from away from Ot?

Upon review I agree with this.
What confuses me more is why Otolia is criticizing RC for sticking to reads and criticizing myself for changing my reads.

[DarkLightA]

DLA, question of shits and giggles.

if you took Marcel out of the picture, tell me what RC has done in the game?

I don't see any problems with his play. You yourself say Marcrell needs more pressure, and RC has provided that more than any player—isn't that worthwhile in itself?

RC has contributed more on non-Marcrell players than others have contributed at all (I'm looking at you, mnemonic...) and I think his points are generally good, so I'm happy with his play.

[DarkLightA]

The ninjaing thing isn't working for me lately :s

[DarkLightA]

But what's even more interesting is how you changed your attitude.

What exactly do you mean by "your attitude" in this post?

[DarkLightA]

Randommidget and BlueBloodedToffee are scum-read.
Llamafluff and Alchemist are strong town read.
DLA is probably town, just like RedCoyote - whom I wished he were here.
Reubus Swagrid is null though I like #274 a lot for his questioning on people's motivation.

The rest is not significant enough which tells me there is some scum lying amongst them.

Does this last bit still stand?

[DarkLightA]

I would not cry if mnemonic were lynched.

Intent to hammer!

[DarkLightA]

I think he is saying if MD goes to L-1 he will hammer.

[DarkLightA]

I'm perfectly content with Otolia for the time being.

[DarkLightA]

I'm also wondering why you assumed his switch was a direct result of you asking about it. Let's play with the assumption he's Town here. Given that he commented on it before switching, I can easily see the likelihood of DLA actually liking the response and switching back. Did you consider that he wanted to vote a player already active in the thread rather than wait for the initial vote, and decide I handled his pressure vote well? As for continued pressure, that doesn't really hold up either. His comment and unvote would indicate he liked my response to his pressure (meaning it was the kind of response he was looking for) and resumed voting his original RVS vote to continue the pressure there.

I'm sorry to burst your bubble but there really wasn't much thought behind it. Your response was funny, and that was about it. I mainly wanted to switch around in order to stir around a bit, which was a success in my eyes.

Hey,

So, I've been thinking. We should probably lynch scum toDay.

With this thought in mind; I would like to ask a question;

Can somebody show me some town posts from MD?

If not, you should vote him so that we can lynch scum.

Thanks.

Let's just lynch Otolia then

[DarkLightA]

Convince me that Otolia is town first.

[DarkLightA]

I'm revising now, but I'll look into three players whose names begin with M-O later today if I find the time.

[DarkLightA]

Marcrell, what's your opinion on BBT?

[DarkLightA]

toDay

Not you too...

[DarkLightA]

Collatz, what's your opinion on Otolia/the Otolia wagon?

[DarkLightA]

I'm also fairly confident scum voted him.

Any reason?

[DarkLightA]

if he is not the lynch today, i will be pissed.

Who? Otolia?

[DarkLightA]

I'll hammer at midnight CEST. I don't like asking for claim in semi-open unless a fullclaim is coming as it's completely pointless so I won't bother with that.

Can we lynch this scum now please?

[DarkLightA]

We're waiting for a fucking claim. No LOLhammers.

What makes you think a claim is pointless? What do you define as a fullclaim vs a claim? What if, say, Marcrell is a cop and can provide investigative results? What's "completely pointless" about that?

[DarkLightA]

DLA, what's your read on Marcrell?

I haven't looked into him too much yet, unfortunately. I'm wouldn't be overly upset if he were lynched, but I'm a lot more confident in my Otalia-scum read.

[DarkLightA]

I have looked into him, but I was looking to do a full inspection of all three M-O players, as I mentioned a while back. I've read through his iso and his play as it's come along, but I wanted to inspect it thoroughly, which I haven't done. I think, previously, if not explicitly then implicitly I've stated that I'm suspicious of the M-O bracket, and hence I won't lose too much sleep over a lynch.

[DarkLightA]

OK, well, this full inspection is taking some time.

I suggest you hurry along.

Are you looking for me to provide a counter case?

What makes you think a claim is pointless? What do you define as a fullclaim vs a claim? What if, say, Marcrell is a cop and can provide investigative results? What's "completely pointless" about that?

I thought he was scum ? But no matter, you're the scum here. That above is the proof.

Pre-day-3 vote: Otolia

[DarkLightA]

As lazy and scummy as it makes me sound, if Otolia is so ready for a hammer that he gave a 4-hour deadline, there's not really much point in me making a case at this point. I have more useful things to do with my time.

[DarkLightA]

Okay seriously can we lynch this ^^

[DarkLightA]

Who? Otolia?

If this is a joke, it went over my head...

The pronoun was ambiguous. I'm guessing he's talking about Marcrell, but the pronoun indicated he was talking about Otolia. I wanted clarification.

I haven't looked into him too much yet, unfortunately. I'm wouldn't be overly upset if he were lynched, but I'm a lot more confident in my Otalia-scum read.

Okay, now this I do not like. DLA, you stated unequivocally that you'd be looking into Marcrell several days ago:

Your case against Marcrell is compelling. I'll look into it later when I have time.

Not much has changed with him since. What I mean by that is, he hasn't done anything to improve his status as a townie that might otherwise mitigate how scummy he looked earlier in the game. If anything, as the wagon is clear evidence of, he's gotten worse overtime. Although I do recall you looking into it and providing feedback, I remember it being mostly positive. So... I'm a little confused as to why you're taken by such surprise and you act as though you haven't put enough thought into the idea of Marcrell scum.

A Marcrell scumflip will definitely cause me to look in DLA's direction going forward.

Nice box.
I agree, I should have looked into it. Frankly, it's just not been high enough on my agenda.

[DarkLightA]

...you'll get townpoints...

careful with this. Only an IC may give out town points without it being suspicious.

^ Town points for this.

[DarkLightA]

Look how convenient it is for DLA to stall if he is scum with marcrell.

He votes him

so he cannot be accused of being fishy, but still tries to peg me as scum.

Did I?

Can anyone retort this?

We're not hammering before Marcrell has had a say.

[DarkLightA]

Otolia's argument is that cops are useless in mafia because their results may not be accurate.

It's like saying you shouldn't go to the toilet because you might drown.

[DarkLightA]

Vig

, please kill me tonight.

?

[DarkLightA]

Now that you say it I agree. I don't think they're scum together.

[DarkLightA]

Before the day ends would the IC bless us with a reads list and what he thinks a town/scum flip from Marcrell would imply?

[DarkLightA]

Fair enough.

[DarkLightA]

Vig

, please kill me tonight.

?

Otolia:

What makes you think there's a vig.

[DarkLightA]

Opposing the trend of the majority, I ask questions as statements.


...I'm also a fan of dangling participles.

[DarkLightA]

Fuck...

Then what will?

[DarkLightA]

RC is playing really well. I wish I were him.

[DarkLightA]

I'll unvote if DLA is going to present what he found because I find he is rapidly climbing my 'Want To Lynch' ladder.

There is no "what he found". It's not like I'm sitting on something that can exonerate Marcrell. If I made a case it would most likely conclude with a null-scum read. I don't think it would change much.

[DarkLightA]

I don't have anything yet-

[DarkLightA]

DLA = town

You must have missed this.

[DarkLightA]

Any reason for not protecting the IC?

[DarkLightA]

...or we could have multiple docs.

[DarkLightA]

Would you mind giving us a reads list?

[DarkLightA]

Any opinions on what Marcrell-scum says about Otolia?

[DarkLightA]

Umm... Or maybe not? (:

[DarkLightA]

I'm implying that Collatz doesn't realize the day has ended.

[DarkLightA]

Or that.

[DarkLightA]

Scum vig?

[DarkLightA]

Close enough.

It'd better not be a 4th party kill ^_^
It's either a town/scum vig, though there's more obvious kills for town vig imo, or some kind of special role effect. Them both being VT suggests the latter is unlikely.

[DarkLightA]

I think the best direction we should go with our lynch today is in analyzing how players reacted to that Marcrell wagon.

This is a fair point. It's unfortunate that it makes me look scummy.

I'm open to a massclaim.

[DarkLightA]

@mod: Isn't the day deadline in two weeks' time?

Fixed.

[DarkLightA]

Scum can't get vig, DLA.

I should have known that.

I can claim first if that's the route we want to go?

[DarkLightA]

I believe that.

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Otolia

[DarkLightA]

VT

Otolia.

[DarkLightA]

Now I'm very confused. Am I correctly reading the setup in that the most possible townies we could have is 3?

We have 3 dead townies, so that makes no sense.

[DarkLightA]

That's convenient

But that still doesn't explain the role discrepancy.

[DarkLightA]

Good analysis RC.

I realize I read the setup wrong. There should be 2-3 VTs left.

Provided that the cop claims are both legit there are two VTs left. That means there's a godfather among me and mnemonic and a goon among Otolia and CKD.
I think it's solvable, but I want to hear mnemonic's claim.

[DarkLightA]

I know who is telling the truth, so I can see if someone is lying. That being said, we can force them into a corner. DLA and MD are town.

Randommidget being scum makes sense considering this claim. He ignores the possibility of a godfather, and indeed, if he is scum, there is no godfather.

[DarkLightA]

Just to be clear: I'm not saying I want to lynch a claimed cop. I think the optimal play is to lynch a VT-claim and let the cop(s) sort it out for themselves overnight.

[DarkLightA]

Basically, the thing is that if we do have two cops, we're much better off with them alive than dead.
We'll get more results tomorrow.

There is at least one scum among VTs+Mnemonic. I suggest we start with that.

[DarkLightA]

Otolia and RM could definitely be scum together

[DarkLightA]

Randomidget, you are assuming RC is indeed a town cop. It is only in that case that there is a godfather.

You are willing to lynch someone you got an innocent on under the assumptions that:
1) RC is town cop
2) MD is in fact the godfather.
...which should imply that there are far better lynches from your perspective.

Why are you so quick to assume RC is town? And what do you stand to gain from both of you—given that you are cops—investigating?

[DarkLightA]

Sick! That was an enjoyable game. Thanks everyone

Sorry I tunneled on you D1 Collatz

[DarkLightA]

I would have been interested in seeing how the game played out. Honestly, I was starting to have serious doubts regarding both RM and RC, but as Otolia said, the cop results would probably have solved it nevertheless.