Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Patrick]

5 pages and my name not even mentioned! I feel left out.

Hi Mina, bbmolla, ETL, Ms Marangal. Don't think I know the others.

Vote: Alchemist21

. Definitely seems like scum.

[Patrick]

I had to google =/

[Patrick]

BPC seems fine to me.

Mina, do you think I put scum tokens on myself for this game?

[Patrick]

OK. I'm not obvtown because I've made like 2 posts. I think my question was more interesting =P

[Patrick]

Alchemist's posts so far look like he's trying to appear involved without really adding anything - he's asking questions and taken a side on a couple of things, but seems to do so in a way that doesn't add any pressure or lead to any interesting followup. He's my best guess for scum so far. Does anyone (apart from serra) get the same impression?

I don't think any of the early attacks are very interesting; Mara's first post looks like a fairly normal attempt to give the game some focus, ETL seeming jumpy doesn't seem unusual if skype mafia is anything to go by, and BPC seems mildly town to me. I don't think he's been any more wishy-washy than normal, and in fact know more about what he thinks than I do most others. Is that based on a specific meta?

[Patrick]

(If you're going to be coy, can you at least tell me whether you or CES would have been more likely to take them?)

CES more likely, since I strongly prefer playing as town.

[Patrick]

I don't think we've ever played together. CES thinks you look town but I've no idea if that's based on experience.

[Patrick]

"Than normal" there meant what I expect from the average punter in the first few hours of a mafia game, not what is normal for you.

[Patrick]

That seems like a strange thing to say about someone who has been here half a year and has 1k+ posts in mafia games. Does that still class as inexperienced?

[Patrick]

@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?

I don't think the two of you have been similar in your play so far. Early on he seems to be trying to get involved, points out a few things that stand out to him, asks some questions, etc. I don't think his indecision is much of a tell either way this early, and he immediately strikes me as a player who probably posts like that in all his games. I think someone else mentioned that as well. You've made a fair number of posts yourself, but alot of the early ones seem like you're trying to appear curious rather than gathering useful info or trolling for reactions. All of 24, 45 and 55 feel awkward to an extent, and that's without being picky. I can easily imagine you as scum nervously approaching the thread and making those posts.

Currently like my vote on Alchemist but in no rush for a L-1. The wagon is interesting; Mina and Quilford to an extent both look like they got on after it became popular without expressing strong suspicion before. Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect. Mina I don't feel that comfortable about; easy to imagine her as scum either bussing alchemist or just attacking the easy target. My team all seem to have concerns about her, though CES might just be doing it because he wants me to troll her.

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

[Patrick]

Mina's comments on her Quilford read and Regfan putting forward Quilford/alchemist as a group seem pretty real though.

Mina, are you good forum scum?

[Patrick]

Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect.

Actually. Is this just you Mina? Not that I dismiss your opinion, I just had in my head more people saying it.

(although couldn't you just ask CES that?)

I did, he thinks you're good. I had been hoping you'd be very easy to read.

[Patrick]

Where do you get the sense Mina is scummier than Quilford? Tbh I get the sense Quilford is latching onto Mina here, and my team and I are in agreement that scumQuilford probably means TownMina. Also, have you looked at Molla's posts?

Not alot solid behind it, Quilford just kind of looks like a townie who is comfortably and organically pointing out things that get his attention and trying to get reactions out of people. There's also Mina's meta on him as being easy to read - I rate meta very highly as a way of reading people, which is why I feel uncomfortable not having much of it here; most of my forum games were played a good few years ago and knowing alot of the people I played with. I don't feel like Mina would be making up that meta even if scum, so I'm happy to give it some weight since its in line with my read.

bbmolla's posts seem like what I'd expect from having attended a couple of real life meets with him. I agree he shamelessly wagoned you but that seems reasonable if he's town who just agrees with what I said?

[Patrick]

(You could have also tried the "Boy, Mina is sooooo scary and unlynchable, and so dangerous with her Rising Star/Paragon team" approach, but too late, I guess.)

CES recommended snark, but I'm not feeling snarky atm. I look forward to seeing your waffling at some point though.

[Patrick]

Haven't bothered to read back through the whole log but I'm pretty sure he hasn't. The other two seem to rate Quilford as a player but nothing alignment specific.

[Patrick]

However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.

2 town on Fenchurch, 2 town on me, no scum. I'd have started this kind of thing if the game had been boring.

[Patrick]

What are you so annoyed about? The guy you're voting has the largest wagon and most people in the game find him scummy.

[Patrick]

If I had to take a guess now, it would be alchemist/Serra. Everyone else has had at least something that seems town, some stronger than others.

[Patrick]

Yes. I'll take it as read that you think they look protown; I don't see that at all.

[Patrick]

I've seen plenty of games where someone gets wagoned for weak early play, never gets a chance to recover and is lynched, only to flip town. Probably anyone with any experience has. And alot of the time, I find myself hating the herd mentality and the obvious confirmation bias that flies around those day 1 mislynches, as people just paint their target in a scummy light and ignore protown signs or potential protown signs. When I see that from the outside I facepalm, when I'm in the game I often have doubts that the day 1 wagonee is scum, even if I'm on them. I read their posts and often just get a gut feeling they're going to be lynched and flip town.

The thing is, in this game, I don't read Alchemists posts and get a gut feeling that he's going to come back as town. I'm nowhere near certain he's scum, but I definitely don't buy that just talking alot makes him town, which you seem to be implying, Mara. I'd like you to back up that read with something more solid.

Quilford does seem town in his recent posts. I also hate people suspecting me so I can identify with that. Pretty happy that CES and CDB agree with me.

[Patrick]

Need more input: ETL and especially serrapaladin

[Patrick]

But the average 9p game also doesn't get to 5 or 6 pages in a few hours. The suggestion that the first pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly is nonsense in light of the general speed of f2f, marathon, and chat room games. I don't like this as a defence of BPC.

I just don't think he was being especially wishy washy - I'm surprised you found this interesting. I don't get where you think I said that the first 5-6 pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly.

I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.

This makes me think she's town too. If alchemist flips scum I don't think this was an attempt to bail him out; I think she might have picked molla in that case.

[Patrick]

serras catchup doesn't feel so good to me. Nothing horribly scummy in there but very easy post to make as scum, I think.

[Patrick]

And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he doesn't feel about Alchemist.

Can you clarify what that means? From your post it seems like you have quite alot of doubt.

Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing. I did a small look at his meta and found his posts in the early game of White Flag to be different to this; more direct and purposeful. Scum meta is trickier because he only has two games on record - one where he was an SK and one was his first game onsite. But when I don't feel like death warmed up I'll be looking at that. tbh I was looking kind of hoping his town game would look different, which is not the way to go about it.

ETLs catchup looks fine i guess? I hate how reliant I apparently am on meta when I play mafia. I didn't catch anything that felt off.

(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.

Why? Genuine question, feel free to self-meta.

@Quilford: your suspicion of Alchemist is well documented, and I don't think cutting down anymore of his posts is being very useful. Talk about some other players for a bit. He's not suddenly going to disappear.

[Patrick]

never mind, misunderstood how that game worked.

[Patrick]

Ok so I just lost a whole ton of post ffs.

In response to Mara, you're changing what I said in a way that makes it look worse. I said that I often get a gut feeling about the day 1 mislynch being town, especially if inexperienced, and that I actually don't get that feeling here, which might mean the first wagon is correct. Your portrayal makes me sound like a rabid squirrel.

[Patrick]

I really really want to write off Quilford as obvious town, but a couple of things give me pause; his vote on Alchemist after saying he might be newbtown, even though nothing much happened in between, and how long he spent just arguing with Alchemist. If Quilford is town, his reason for voting Alchemist then was simply reconsidering in light of what I wrote, which is plausible but the timing catches my attention. Overall he sounds like chilled town most of the time and most likely thats because he simply is town, but don't rule him out from playing a good scumgame.

Mara I also think is likely town, and she will probably piss me off incredibly this game unless Alchemist gets lynched as scum and I'm nightkilled. Her view of the game seems off but pretty genuine, and reminds me of the only forum game of hers I've read, mykonians maneuvre mafia. Her vote on CDB there feels similar to her vote on me here.

serra I could easily imagine being scum. Reading his exchange more closely with Mina, I think his accusation of Mina word-twisting is a stretch. His comments on liking BPC's point against Mina left his wiggle room to pursue her or to sit back, and granted some people just post like this, but I don't think Mina is misrepping anything at all there.

ETL meh. Early on she feels natural, and CDB told me to never lynch her because of her post at the bottom pf page 1. Her recent posts don't really make me feel anything.

Mina's posting looks good, but more than most I think she would be capable of playing well as scum and producing quite detailed posts. I didn't like her push on BPC early, do like her attempt to get Quilford to talk about players other than Alchemist. I'm not especially happy with the number of townreads on her.

[Patrick]

This is maneuvre mafia, where I think Mara seems similarish in tone:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39330

[Patrick]

Currently I can't think of a better place for my vote than Alchemist. I think serrapaladin comes closest, but I've changed my mind a few times on whether his last two posts are genuinely scummy or just a different perspective on some things. No other vote really appeals to me at the moment.

[Patrick]

As I mentioned too.

[Patrick]

I am given slight pause by how easily he dismissed a lot of the early game in #121, and I'm unconvinced by his read on serra, but on the whole I think he's likely to be Town and at the very least isn't somewhere we should be going with today's lynch

I wasn't interested in trying to make hay about a bunch of stuff that struck me as null, especially when there was more something interesting to go after.

FWIW, I'm also unconvinced by my read on serra.

[Patrick]

Interesting vote Mina. Did that in particular really trigger it?

[Patrick]

Fun.

[Patrick]

quite zzz

[Patrick]

oh oh and patrick's read on me is so soft and nervous and i dont like it.

Not nervous, your large catchup post didn't tell me anything about you. Your most recent post at least looks like you're trying to do something.

[Patrick]

I get really skeevy about people who seem to be afraid of passing a read on me. Like I said early on, I'm inclined to think anyone brave enough to attack me outright probably isn't scum.

I think that seems pretty self-centred as a policy, but it's possible you've found it to be true over a good number of games. I'm not especially afraid of passing a read on you, but I'm more interested in a bunch of others than I am you (Alchemist, serra, Mina for starters). When looking at 8 others, none of which I've played a game of forum mafia with before, I'm unlikely to come up with very definitive reads on every single one, and I'm going to put time into metagaming any of those before you, most likely. I don't think that's a very unusual approach, most reads lists seem to have some "meh idk" type gaps, especially on day 1.

I think your last few posts look like you're trying to discern some alignments, in a way that didn't really show in your catchup.

[Patrick]

Lastly, she says a wagon that forms and sticks like mine with no counterwagon is a sure sign that it's on Town.

If you're scum, I think its entirely possible your partner feels compelled to push against you.

[Patrick]

alch, what do you think of serrapaladin this game?

[Patrick]

Frankly I'm not surprised at your reaction here. If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.

Did someone on your team suggest saying something like this?

[Patrick]

Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing.

I wouldn't expect town alchemist to do this either. I know I've had a couple games where I started out mostly bullshitting around because I wanted to have fun and kept real game talk light. Not saying it's a good idea, but I can understand it at least.

To clarify, I'm making an argument there for why I think he could still be scum despite the obvious upswing in content. I think maybe you read it the other way.

@Patrick: In your post 412, you mentioned reads on most players in the game and mentioned me a few times, but with no read. What's your read on me?

Mildly town. I can elaborate on this if wanted, but I'm interested in why you wanted my read on you?

[Patrick]

I took a look at Alchemists posts in some completed games and I think his early posts here seem closer to his scumgame. His play in Elemental Mafia had the same wariness and his play in a bunch of town games seemed more relaxed early on. Would appreciate someone else (probably not Quilford) looking at these and checking my vision.

[Patrick]

Apparently, I'll have to come right out and say that Patrick looks really town, and this wagon is bad.

I've floated it around a bit in our skypechat and got no real comments either way, but I have to ask; how are you reading me so comfortably? This is probably pretty annoying if you are just town who's playing rather well, but your approach to me is not what I expected at all.

[Patrick]

This page makes a very sorry sight.

Mara: Is there anything to your serra town read apart from his response to you initially? To me his behaviour on alchemist roughly sums up what you're voting me for, so can you flesh that out a bit when you get back.

Mina: Are you weighing up alchemist and serrapaladin in your mind? If it were up to you alone, which one would you rather lynch?

[Patrick]

Well most of the game is here now. We could turn it into a game of chat mafia and see what happens.

[Patrick]

Mara: Is there anything to your serra town read apart from his response to you initially? To me his behaviour on alchemist roughly sums up what you're voting me for, so can you flesh that out a bit when you get back

Not really no, but tomorrow I am probably gonna vote.park on molla the entire day

The point is more that you can't fathom how a genuine scumhunter wouldn't have more doubts about alchemist, while town-reading serrapaladin who I don't think has shown the slightest doubt about alchemist, nor much curiosity overall.

Why the bbmolla hatred for faking a hammer?

[Patrick]

Mara, if you're town is there any chance you could stop with the vague bullshit and just get your hands dirty? I feel like you're actually slowing the game down,

[Patrick]

Also, WHY IS SERRA TOWN?

The masses they want to know

[Patrick]

CDBs immediate reaction was that this is molla town, and I think I agree.

[Patrick]

I don't think alchemists reaction tells us much about him either way. It was a decent idea but probably a bit too obvious from his pov because molla has been on him all game.

[Patrick]

BPC, if scum, is playing quite well so far. I like or neutral on most of his contributions and he usually hits the right notes for me, sometimes before I've put them into the thread. I agree that Mara's reactions aren't especially scummy but I could see him thinking it as town.

[Patrick]

I think it's Serra/Alch

I think Mara is off with her reads.

This would be great and would make plenty of sense of the game. Most games aren't that easy but I don't have a better theory right now.

[Patrick]

Mara, I know it seems crazy, but some of us are actually here trying to win this game as town while you're trolling us, entering yourself for team mafia and then claiming for no reason at all. I watched your painful play in maneuvre, where you pursued CDB all of day 1 while he tried to lynch scum who DIDN'T LOOK THAT DIFFERENT to alchemist right now, and then watched you fake claim a roleblock on him because you were that sure you were right. I thought maybe it was a one-off, but you do you actually do this in every game you play?

Seriously, what happens when I'm dead as town? You just sit on bb and do nothing?

[Patrick]

Mara you are actually terrible at this game.

[Patrick]

I'm not in a great mind to decide, but I think ETL could be scum. Push on me is beyond terrible and I think she could easily pull out a few curse words as scum. Not for today, but her play is pretty disgusting.

[Patrick]

Mina, having seen her do it once, I think she has it in her.

[Patrick]

Titus is wanting me to sheep Mara on Patrick just because she was confident enough to claim early.

I think Titus is a decent player, and have a hard time thinking she would advise any sheeping of Mara given what Mara has just done.

[Patrick]

because he's being a soft waffley pansy while sitting on a leading wagon

I think this is turning to insults more than anything, but why do you say that? I've given plenty of reads, throughout the game and this evening even as Mara is doing her best to throw. Is literally your only reason for voting me that I gave a kinda lazy read on you? That seems super weak.

[Patrick]

Mara just got herself rated bottom of everyone's lists when the game is over.

[Patrick]

I have to go to bed. It's past 2am and I haven't been so pissed off in a long time. If alchemist tries to use his last post to transition onto me, he should be killed with fire immediately.

[Patrick]

ETL once again looking like she's trying to get reads on people, Mina makes me feel much better about her this past 24 hours, Quilford doesn't look great in this last stretch but CDB just put him at 96% town and I'm happy to drink the kool aid. bbmolla fairly obvious town after last night.

Minas comment about serra/BPC being weird for attacking her is the exact same thing I was thinking this morning. I do think alchemist/serra would explain serra's extreme lack of motivation, but all we can do now is wait and see. Haven't read the ETL/Quilford thing that closely yet but I don't think it's useful.

If neither alchemist or serra are scum in this game, I have absolutely no idea what's going on. I have a hard time naming one other player as a scumbag, never mind two.

[Patrick]

At the UK Scummers meet atm, so not really much time or desire to post until Friday.

[Patrick]

Since I'm here right now though.

Quilford, I didn't see a great deal of benefit to making very obvious points about Alchemist given the gamestate. I looked at his meta, and nobody bothered to do the same as far as I could tell, and I mentioned that I didn't really buy Titus's comment on wanting to sheep Mara (also felt Alchemist might be trying to look protown by presenting it and then saying he wouldn't vote me without more rationale). Apart from that, any chump could yell about his posts and call them bad. Not that interesting, unless you think someone else is likely to be lynched instead

[Patrick]

Back from the UK scummers meet, hoped my last post had made that obvious enough but apparently not to all. Read all this super quickly and glad we got someone instead of serrapaladin who is actually playing and might have a hope in hell of being town, though I think his read progression on me makes no sense at all (with his earlier comments on me and what he seems to think about the game, I don't know why he wouldn't be suspicious of me). Mina, I attend meets to play board games, FTF mafia and socialise, not sit at a laptop worrying about forum games - for someone who's been to 3 meets with me I find this question weird at very best.

Anyway, gut impression from superfast skim is that if I've got serrapaladin wrong, the scumgroup may well be Mina/BipolarChesmist. Will give this game some attention later on today and actually get into some specifics. A bunch of people give me town vibes today and I want to decide which of those are too superficial.

[Patrick]

This game feels like an absolute mess right now. I think I would stake the game on bbmolla being town. I also think Quilford is town, but beyond that is murky as hell.

I think bbmollas mood swings and emotions in this game feel incredibly genuine. I'm explaining this because a bunch of people have him as a question mark. I think if he managed to fake his stress in real time at the end of day 1 I'll nominate him for some kind of oscar, and his tone today feels exactly like a townie who got it wrong after thinking he was incredibly right. His reaching out to Mina/Quilford/me in different posts looks genuine rather than scum buddying up to town.

And I'm willing to believe that maybe the fakehammer played out really town in real time. It just looks so obviously fake to me in real time (wasn't there a vote count on the same page?) that I'm unwilling to really trust anything that came of it.

It was fairly obvious to anyone paying attention that it was fake, but why are you unwilling to trust anything that came after it? Most of that clusterfuckery isn't even about the fake hammer anymore.

JohnnyFarrar: I appreciate that you've contributed more so far than serra did for the entire game. Can you talk me through why you're able to make that many scathing comments about my play and somehow have me as the second to bottom on your list? You call me lame and boring several times, you don't like my attack on Alchemist, you think my metadive on him was useless, you don't mind ETLs vote on me, you think I'm posting in a way that doesn't tell you anything about my alignment. You don't seem to mind being abrasive, so why be political about this?

So only brief comment: Patrick, for one thing, I'm pretty sure I've never been at a meet with you while you were in a forum game, to my knowledge, so I have no clue why you think my question is "weird at best." And you're not obligated to post at a meet. However, given I kept refreshing the forums and seeing your teammates show up as the most recent posters, yes, Black Goo clearly making it a priority to keep up with their games while you were completely disconnected from yours started making me really paranoid (particularly since I think I might be underestimating you). Sorry if it's unfair to penalize you for having teammates who care. But at minimum, I'd expect the teammates who are masochistic enough to play forum Mafia at meets to be reading your game.

Also, sorry, the window of time from the start of the game for when you're allowed to have bad scumreads on me has closed (leaving aside I don't think BPC and I make much sense as a scumteam, anyway).

I'll be completely honest, my read on you in this game seems to change almost everytime I look over the thread (last time it was Fenchurch doing this to me). Your amount of effort and greater anxiety today makes me want to think you're town, but I also think you've been given a bunch of fairly easy townreads over the course of the game, and I could see you more than anyone else coasting through to the win if you are scum. Small things niggle me about your play, such as how easily you trusted me yesterday and how you're trying to turn my UK meet absence into something today, and I think if this were just me being a complete idiot, my team would be correcting me. Fenchurch hasn't read anything beyond page 1, but CDB and CES have and neither of them have much trust for you in this game.

Having spoken to zoraster, all I can say is that this game wasn't a priority focus for our team, who were all present at the meet. To answer your question about my scum play, I do think it differs significantly from my town play, and I tend to split people into those who can read me pretty well (some examples are Fate, Porochaz and believe it or not, Uberninja), and those who constantly get hung up on elements of my play that have nothing to do with alignment. All I can suggest for my forum game would be looking at the last two UK Scummer invitationals, which I think you've seen some of anyway.

I think the scum are in (Johnny, BPC, ETL, Mina). A Johnny/BPC would be slightly strange based on the two of them being the only players to go after Mina, who got alot of townreads on day 1. A Johnny/Mina connection doesn't seem likely at all. ETL seems to alternate between sounding genuine and sounding sleazy, but I think would make sense as scum with Johnny. Stubborn town read on serra day 1 and now voting Johnny over a few comments in his catchups that really don't seem worth a vote to me.

PEdit: That was more annoyance than anything. I didn't make the post to convey the impression that I thought serra previously had no chance of being town. It just felt right at the time (yeah, I know). Now I think you might just be town. Do you think I'm heading in the right direction with my post?

[Patrick]

BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.

This was a while back, but could you elaborate on me hitting on your trains of thought? At the time this just seemed like a nice compliment that made me feel all warm and fuzzy, but it feels a bit awkward without pointing out which trains of thought.

Can't remember it perfectly but you brought up some Mina doubts about the time I was having some, such as odd serra town read and overconfidence, and I was pleased to see you starting to look at Alchemist. I don't know why looking back makes it feel awkward.

Maybe more of a curious thought, what do you see when you look at alchemist's post now?

A townie who had an off game? That's about all I can think.

@pat: 412, were you townreading me at this point?

Vaguely that, also just didn't have much to say about you.

1) Patrick, asking about your absence was moreso trying to reassure myself about you (in part because I'd followed some of the links in JF's catch-up and was suddenly getting the same "boring and reasonable" vibe from a few of posts, in part because Ether described you as "tricksy" at the Montreal meet, and in part because I thought I was wrong about everything at the beginning of D2). It's not like anyone would follow me even if I was scum pushing a mislynch based on that reasoning. That last post (along with a dose of sanity from Regfan) made me feel much better--my one question (which I'm asking mostly to dot my is and cross my ts) is what reasons your teammates gave for scumreading me, unless there's a strategic reason for you not to reveal it. Do you mean "heading in the right direction" reads-wise/partnership-wise?

I think if scum have any plans on getting me lynched, they wouldn't attempt it straight away anyway, but would try and chip away at my credibility. But my latest read makes me inclined to believe what you've said here.

CES didn't like your early move on BPC, who he read as town early; I suspect had CES been playing in my slot he'd have voted you at that point, though it's hard to tell with him. Neither CDB nor CES think you've done anything that you couldn't fake as scum, and that alone puts you in the frame if bbmolla and Quilford are assumed town. CDB and I briefly discussed last night what your 902 means about you, with him thinking your reasoning didn't make alot of sense, and me thinking it doesn't make alot of sense but wondering if it makes you town.

And yes, right direction meant reads/pairing wise. I've been burned before focussing too much on pairings, but this seems like a time where we should at least be considering them.

Yes, this. I don't understand where patrick is coming from with that and that;s about the first time this game he's said something questionable. I'm chalking it up to half assed read coming back but I would like to hear more on this

Reading more carefully, I don't think this pairing is that likely anymore. I had in my head Mina's rather high level of suspicion of you early on, which both CES and I felt was unwarranted, and wondered whether this could be scum disproportionately attacking a partner's "scumminess".

Why bother to specifically point out that this is the first thing I've said that you find questionable? Is this what has turned me from being your top town read to being unsure on me?

Because when fakehammers are obviously fake, it becomes much harder to tell whether disbelieving reactions are genuine or not? So there's not much point to them? I don't understand.

Its obvious that a ton of stuff happened at the end of the day that had nothing to do with the fakehammer - most of it stemmed from Mara's ridiculous claim. Do you think bbmolla looks like scum in that episode?

[Patrick]

Well this feels very flat. Currently if I had to pick between them, I think I'd lynch BPC over Johnny, because Johnny made quite a few decent observations and sounds like he might be trying to work things out, whereas BPC in the last page or so feels more like he's doing busywork. Though if Johnny is scum he knew he had to come in strongly. I don't know where ETL fits into all of this, and I don't get strong protowness from her today. I do get strong protowness from Minas posting today, especially the frustration at the game.

I should be pretty around tomorrow if people want to try and get this game moving again. I do not plan on it ending in the same way as day 1.

[Patrick]

Patrick should be here soon? To like, vote or ask questions or something?

I'm here, if we want to do some kind of RT thing again that outs our second powerole and lynches a townie.

Sorry to hear about the depression ETL.

[Patrick]

Sad, I was going to ask Johnny a question and I literally can't think of one.

Earlier I mentioned scum being in (BPC, ETL, Johnny, Mina). I feel happier about Mina being town now, so looking at what's left:

BPC has given me a vague town vibe for most of the game (well, day 1 really). Today his play has been meh; asks alot of questions, pushes Quilford a bit for hammering despite being OK with it himself at the time. I'm not sure this deserves the vote Quilford gave in itself, but it doesn't leave me the impression that BPC is trying to discern Quilfords alignment, more like he's looking for things to nitpick and sow doubt with. His questions to me in 907 sort of feel the same to me. This isn't a very strong feeling, but I could see him as the scum playing it cool and keeping enough options open. Nothing much about his posts screams town.

ETL feels very erratic. Didn't like her vote on Mara towards end of yesterday, didn't like the vote on me, don't like her vote on Johnny today. Her tinpot theory of Johnny/Mina feels town to me on a gut level - after calling Mina protown all game, I think scum would be less likely to U-turn like this. I'd like to know whether ETL still thinks this might be the team.

Johnny's catchup play feels decent. I'd like ETL to elaborate on her vote on him. Do you not like his play as a whole or is it just the points he made against you feel scummy?

I think any scumteam within those three players is possible. ETL/BPC would mean they've both been ignoring each other so far and trying to incriminate a bunch of town, ETL/Johnny requires a bus today that I could see being true, BPC/Johnny means Johnny is trying to save face after serrapaladin didn't do shit. I'd really like to say that the scumteam is one of these three because the other three players feel like town to me, but I think they're all skilled enough to be playing a good game as scum (more worry about Mina and Quilford in this regard).

I think if forced to place a vote between my 3 suspects now I'd vote BPC, but I'm not happy doing it now. ETL and Johnny both have stronger flashes of towniness at times, whereas BPC would just have had to play a level-headed game as scum on day 1. But really, we need some more people talking, even if it's just some thoughts without immediate conclusions. I'm not super satisfied with my world view in this game, and I think it's because I keep having to re engage whenever making a post rather than having an constant dialogue. Partly my fault too, but atm half the players are dragging their feet.

[Patrick]

I think bbmollas mood swings and emotions in this game feel incredibly genuine. I'm explaining this because a bunch of people have him as a question mark. I think if he managed to fake his stress in real time at the end of day 1 I'll nominate him for some kind of oscar, and his tone today feels exactly like a townie who got it wrong after thinking he was incredibly right. His reaching out to Mina/Quilford/me in different posts looks genuine rather than scum buddying up to town.

This has been my view since the end of day 1. Not all emotion indicates town, but I would expect scum to have been laughing gleefully about Mara's play at that point, so if he looks genuinely pissed off that suggests to me he's town.

[Patrick]

I don't think Johnny's bbmolla stance is that hard to follow tbh.

Is there a reason he's getting flak for it and Quilford isn't? They don't seem much different to me.

[Patrick]

I take it you completely disagreed with my 970 Johnny.

[Patrick]

why does sounding genuine become less relevant after the start of day 1?

[Patrick]

Patrick, do you still think any combination of {BPC, JF, ETL} works?

Nothing much changed since I last said it, so yes. I think there are a few oddities in some cases (like the serra BPC both attacking you thing you brought up on day 1), but nothing that strongly speaks against any of those teams.

But I also said that I'm not terribly satisfied with my world view, which is why I want people getting their hands dirty. For instance, is Quilford super obviously town? Not really, and there are elements of his play that give me pause.

What specifically is making you paranoid, and what teams within those three do you think are plausible?

[Patrick]

He has done nothing to look town or scum to me because he's not playing the game.

Bullshit. You're telling me all my day 1 posts were fluff, I've never posted content?

Kind of agree with this, actually. This read on bbmollas play seems very simplistic compared to other stuff you've produced.

[Patrick]

Haven't given alot of thought to Quilford buddies, tbh I haven't been seriously considering him for much of the game. I'm debating whether I should. Fenchurch got round to looking at the game, and we spoke for a while on skype. when looking back at the end of day 1, I just think 732 seems so counter-intuitive at the time it came.

[Patrick]

Hey Patrick, 732 came at a time when I was reassessing the Alchemist wagon and didn't like BBmolla's reasons for being on it at all, and didn't like the fact that you hadn't talked about your read on Alchemist in depth for some time. Literally that entire page is me beginning to doubt the Al wagon

Yeah I know, I've read this before. And I think the timing is whack because that is right about when I decided bbmolla looked really town. But that just brings us back to the debate that's been going on for a few pages, so meh.

I have found various aspects of BB's play town, which is why I have him at null. But people (Patrick, ETL) who are just saying blah blah emotion blah fakehammer need to look a little bit closer, for Christ's sake. Your lack of nuance in your read on him really concerns me, which is precisely not what I want, because it's destroying my previously held townreads on you and, I think, making me think Johnny is townier than he actually is.

I could probably look at him more closely I guess. I tend to do that when someone makes me a little bit paranoid about them, which he hasn't. The fact that my team are happy with this helps. But I also think you're being overely dismissive about my read on him. Like, I think the emotion that you file under blah blah blah is a real tell, I think the fakehammer is a much weaker one but still leans town, and I disagree that he hasn't scumhunted. I don't know what you found so offensive about his read on alchemist, because I felt alot of the same too. If you think the emotion should be dismissed then can you at least explain why you don't think it means anything? Johnny didn't convince me here.

Random moment of paranoia time: why did your town read on me start getting stronger right when I stopped posting? Shouldn't this be when you'd be getting LESS sure of the {JF-BPC-ETL} PoE pool rather than more so?

That read on you was based on rereading day 2 a few times, not so much what was happening at the time, which wasn't much. I'd have preferred you to be posting about whatever you'd re evaluated but saw no reason to doubt that you were just busy.

EBWOP: I seriously, unironically think BPC randomly putting ETL as his strongest town read (while scummy as hell) is not something he'd do to his actual buddy (this may sound like ridiculous logic, but this tell has worked for me a lot in the past).

Its a kinda weird read if they're scum together. I've used similar tells myself, depending on the context. But I've also hit games where I've seen so many of these little things that I've ended up practically ruling out every possible scumgroup. At some point in most games, most scumteams will do something you wouldn't quite expect. Now that you've pointed this out, I really wish he'd answered before leaving.

in any case town reads are worthless especially coming from you who has waffled on people all game.

What was even the point of this?

Fucking [] tags in urls ruining ISO links. Start reading from here for the Quilford vs. Molla battle. Also an example of me-scum (I think I looked pretty town since I could genuinely hunt for the other team, except I went for a lot of low-hanging fruit and never gave a big-picture view of the game) and Molla-town.

CES would like me to thankyou for providing a link that amused him. It is true that Quilfords play in that game looks very crude, lol.

ETL, what happened to you thinking I'm a dirty scumbag?

[Patrick]

I donno Mina. I'm bad at reading you, I'm gonna trust Patrick's word over my own.

[Patrick]

If you were reading for comprehension, you wouldn't be asking this question.

No, I actually have no clue what the point of it was, considering you apparently think Mina is genuine, and what you said here isn't even slightly true. Perhaps what you're saying makes clear sense in your own head, but I find most of your posts extremely difficult to follow. I'll ask you again: what was the point of that post?

@Patrick: I don't think the emotion should be dismissed—it's a big part of my read on him—but I think his poor scumhunting should heavily weigh against it, and I don't understand how it doesn't for you. His read on Alchemist was very poorly reasoned, as I've gone into before.

I just don't think his scumhunting is as poor as you're saying? Is it even much different to that game Mina linked to? I only really looked at his responses to you but I don't see a stark difference.

Do you take issue with Mina's townread of him?

[Patrick]

I just don't think I get you at all. Almost every time I come in here I change my mind on what I think of you. Now that she's read almost the entire game, Fenchurch seems pretty sure you're scum, and though I'm less sure, I'm hard pressed to make a good argument for why, because I dislike alot of what you've posted.

I think BPC should be today's lynch

This is terrible. I'd rather go today. I'm clearly a big question mark for people

Like, what on earth is this. Are you confident the guy is town, or just being a drama queen?

[Patrick]

OK. I don't think it's a great attitude if you're town but I've certainly done the same when pissed off with games. What is your read on BPC now?

[Patrick]

What difference does it make that Brian replaced in specifically?

Also, do you think your scum play is very different to this then?

[Patrick]

Suspecting him = you are bad at Mafia (even if you're Regfan!)

I'll quote this at you next time =)

[Patrick]

I don't think his play here looks like his play in Marketplace either. Though the fact that so many spectators seem to suspect him is something I mentioned in my skypechat earlier today as well. Its weird but I'm not sure what can be gleaned from it.

[Patrick]

Pretty happy that last few pages have gotten rid of my Quilford doubts, but since they've been replaced by bbmolla ones it's not great progress. I think Brian Skies is the best lynch and barring something sensational from him I will be voting him.

[Patrick]

If someone has a few questions for me it would help because I feel very very lazy right now.

[Patrick]

Brian, I think if I was reading your comments on people without knowing that your list goes from town to scum, I wouldn't much idea what your overall opinion was on most of the players. You have bbmolla as second most town, but your entire paragraph about him seems pretty negative. ETL is your second scummiest but reading your analysis of her it sounds more like you think she's town:

While I've seen her as town a lot, I've only seen her as scum once (here) and from what I remember, she wasn't really that engaged in the game or trying very hard. A lot of her play here feels like her town game to me. I think the biggest thing that concerns me is her Serra read, but I think I can see why she'd be townreading him. I have a small worry that if she's scum, she could have been trying to distance from Serra early on this day phase or bus him because he's expendable from the tracker flip.

Is your biggest concern about her just that the serra read might be distancing from him? Even though you can see where it comes from?

I also did see some of her teammates thinking I could be town for replacing in as a chronic lurker, which I guess makes some sense if I think about it, but I don't know why it's even a thing.

Can you clarify this? Which teammates of ETLs said this and where?

Is Johnny your top suspect at the moment? Your list implies he is, but I can't get a good feel from your comments on what you find suspicious.

[Patrick]

Quilford, do you think he's town from that catchup?

[Patrick]

In what way does your opinion not matter? So confused.

[Patrick]

I asked him because he unvoted. You should feel free to give an opinion as well though.

[Patrick]

Playing BSG atm, but Brian, if you're the powerole, just claim it now. Implying it at the moment isn't helpful, we're too close to deadline.

[Patrick]

No counterclaim from me. Waiting for everyone is best, but if that doesn't happen by the time I want to go to bed I'll probably just post what I'm thinking anyway because we're down to under 24 hours and this game is confusing as fuck.

[Patrick]

And now I feel like a zombie. But assuming the claim is true, I think Johnny is our best chance of hitting scum today. Unless the scumteam is Johnny/ETL, one of my townreads was wrong. I could see ETL bussing, having read serra as town all of day 1 and getting some heat for it, and I think her reasons for voting Johnny were pretty much trash, but I don't know how much I believe it right now. The prospect of having to scrutinise Mina/Quilfords/bbmollas posts to try and work out which one of them is lying is daunting.

Quilford doesn't look like scum. His scumplay in the marketplace looks very different, and his slight poke at Mina here looks genuine. Although scum can try to spread paranoia, I don't feel like scum Quilford would bother, since his gameplan would have been pretty extended buddying up to Mina (if they're both scum then I'm not sure what can save us). Mina I was wary of yesterday, but seems so genuine today in trying to move the game forward. She's hit on things I've been thinking several times and just generally made so many good observations that I just don't see it. I'd guess her scumgame is the best of three of them, but thats about it. I'll be pretty sad if she does turn out to be scum. bbmolla feels a little sketchier recently, but that could just be laziness. The thought of ever actually voting him seems a bit surreal after what he posted on day 1, but unless the team is Johnny/ETL, then I have to consider it.

So

Vote: JohnnyFarrar

. Also wouldn't cry over an ETL lynch. I'll be pretty around tomorrow, and hope others will be as well.

[Patrick]

@zoraster

, did you miss my vote on Johnny? It was on a new line and everything.

Johnny's reaction kinda makes me feel happier with it? Even setting aside the utter weirdness, I think town is more likely to be confused as hell and that doesn't really read that way.

[Patrick]

Quilford, who is our best shot for doing that, then?

[Patrick]

Its no ringer, but his response does read oddly to me. The only person I'd consider voting today would be ETL. Which is in fact what Fenchurch would like me to do.

[Patrick]

She's been calling ETL scum for a few rl days now. She feels like ETL's thought processes haven't made any sense, and not in a townish hopping around kind of way, she feels like ETL has been taking the stances that help her most or that she feels she ought to have. She doesn't like ETL's certainly on bbmolla town after previously not trusting that much, really didn't like her analysis at the end of the day (that ended up you and ETL fighting over), and didn't like ETLs 808 in response to bbmolla sounding depressed - she felt like that was scum having a different emotional response to town because scum are ahead (she also admitted to likely confirmation bias here). She'll probably tell me off for not representing her thoughts very well, but this is mainly off the cuff here.

And really, what speaks against this? Not much. Because ETL hasn't been making alot of sense this game, so its basically just gut saying that these points aren't as important as they seem. (I've played skype mafia with ETL before, and couldn't follow most of her thought processes when she town or scum).

But there is a decent chance she's scum, just based on POE. Realistically I'm making a choice between voting what I think (which is Johnny), or trusting Fenchurch's read of the game, which might simply be better than mine. While writing this, CDB showed up and expressed a preference for lynching Johnny.

[Patrick]

are you in Aussie? Is it the middle of the night? Can you do words as well as sounds at this hour?

[Patrick]

I didn't claim anything? I meant if Brian is lying then he shouldn't be counterclaimed.

If he's lying he should absolutely be counterclaimed now. We're not in lylo today, so a counterclaim situation puts us at worst in a 1 for 1 trade, at best just a scum lynch. If we hit lylo tomorrow and there's a counterclaim, we're stuck in a position of having to get it right or losing immediately.

[Patrick]

Where's your head at Mina?

[Patrick]

Pretty around until deadline. Not going to fight an ETL lynch but my votes on Johnny atm.

[Patrick]

Also, I think you have a very real chance of being scum right now.

I'm not some kind of unreadable machine.

[Patrick]

With two and a half hours we need Mina and bbmolla to commit to a vote soon.

[Patrick]

Already talked about ETL, but if delving into the other three I'd pick bbmolla because I think you and Mina look very town recently and he doesn't especially.

[Patrick]

I don't like how brief and unhelpful JohnnyFarrar has been this close to deadline. If he's town, his top suspect just got blown out of the water and yet he seems so mechanical, just moving onto his next suspect. There doesn't seem to be any confusion or angst at all.

[Patrick]

Not lynching you, and you should care.

Which of those two do you prefer?

[Patrick]

And your posts are very reasonable, but have been kind of milquetoast in tone today, and generally don't say anything too controversial or far from the beaten track.

I don't think they have been. I don't especially want to read through my entire iso for day 2 now, but I've been pretty actively trying to solve the game since getting back from the meet, and my opinions are just what they are. I've had my doubts about both you and Quilford at different times, and currently don't for a shedload of reasons - I'm not going to exagerate them so I can go against the grain a little more for your liking. If you mean that I've been burying my head in the sand since Brian's claim and just hoping the scumteam is ETL/Johnny, then its kind of true. Maybe it would be a bit different if I didn't have an entire team also thinking you/Quilford are town, but even then I likely wouldn't move away from lynching one of Johnny/ETL today. I think your milk toast better describes my play in the first half of day 1.

I also don't like how your opinions on BPC and on BBmolla sort of followed the crowd and you backed away from pretty strong town reads on them (e.g., it feels like you downplayed how much you liked BPC on D1 when the tide turned against him on D2--yes, I know his D2 posting was pretty scummy).

BPC I had a mildly town read on for a time, soon replaced by not much of anything as his posting slowed down a ton, and the tone of his posts of day 2 did feel scummy. bbmolla I think has had two schools of thought on him, and I just happened to be in one of them. I don't think I've particularly followed anyone there.

And good for you Mina, you could fake annoyance at Mara's bullshit as scum. Newsflash, I wasn't faking. I feel like she basically went against the site rules which say play to win. It doesn't only waste my time, it wastes the time of my team who have all read the game and tried to work out what the hell is going on, and the teams of everyone else in the game. As scum I'd have been over the moon to see her claim, and I'll bet you the scum were.

What else does Fenchurch think? I mean, she's said all sorts of things about specific posts that I'm not going to just lift into here. She's now stopped bugging me to vote ETL because she thinks Johnny is likely to be scum, she's told me to lynch one scum today before freaking out over their partner. She had a scumread on you for about 1 page before deciding you were probably town, she though bbmollas ire looked genuine but is now less sure (yes, very mainstream). She clarified her dislike of ETLs progression by giving a whole bunch of post numbers and quotes in the skype chat, I really don't fancy paraphrasing the whole lot now but if it'll tell people something about my alignment I guess I will.

Hoping against hope that it's Johnny/ETL

Yes christ.

[Patrick]

CES hasn't said much about bbmolla, except a few days ago when he said that all of (Mina, Quilford, bbmolla) look sufficiently town that we could probably win by just lynching everyone else. That was before Brians claim though.

[Patrick]

I don't know why I ever thought playing forum mafia would be a good idea =/

[Patrick]

Was the concern about lynching Johnny without an ETL check-in that ETL might then claim watcher tomorrow?

ETL apparently being online but not posting doesn't look good, though I'm not sure what the benefit would be as scum, given that she could use her vote to try and save herself.

[Patrick]

Brian, though I would like it to be Johnny/ETL, it doesn't mean your claim has no effect whatsoever. You were a major suspect before.

[Patrick]

fwiw, I think the chances that ETL is the powerole are extremely low. I mean if she is, she can join Mara at the bottom of my ratings, but I'm not seeing it.

[Patrick]

I'm going to guess I don't get to bed before 2

[Patrick]

Quilford, are you actually a sadist?

I'd prefer you just do it now in case of freak power outage or internet failure.

[Patrick]

depends alot on what happens now, Quilford.

[Patrick]

And now ETL shows up on the online list. What the actual fuck

[Patrick]

It can still be him, his behaviour today doesn't look like town at all. But ETL showing up right now is sdfsdfsdfgvdfvs

[Patrick]

I just want zoraster.

[Patrick]

I'm going to guess I don't get to bed before 2

[Patrick]

ETL, I'm sorry about what you have going on in real life atm. This game is stressful enough even without alot else going on (my situation now), so I can only imagine how tough it is when you've got all that to think about. But, you're still in a player in the game, you still have an alignment, and you can't defend yourself against every critisism that comes your way by saying real life is difficult.

oh yeah how about the fact that in all of this, i've got some twats on the internet bitching about how i'm not around.... lol fuck off with that.

And you definitely can't do it with stuff like this.

If you're protown and knew you'd be away at deadline, why not at least mention that was going to be the case? For all you're talking about how you caught the obvscum Johnny while the rest of us were being terrible players, you chose to leave your vote on Quilford when you knew you wouldn't be around at deadline, who was I'd say pretty clearly not going to be lynched yesterday. Why?

[Patrick]

Looking over serra's minimal posting, one thing that doesn't make alot of sense as scum with ETL is his hard town read on her. If these two are scum together, they both decided to call each other town from an early stage and just go after townies. It kinda looks more like serra is trying to get on ETL's good side.

[Patrick]

If Quilford is scum, why didn't he try to lynch you instead of Johnny yesterday? I'd say he had pretty good opportunity.

[Patrick]

I think you need to read the end of yesterday again, ETL.

[Patrick]

If I had to call it right now, I think I'd say it's bbmolla.

[Patrick]

Work is incredibly quiet. But reading this last page there's been about 20 things I didn't want to hear =/

[Patrick]

Not really no

[Patrick]

Mostly in jest because I felt quite relaxed about the game last night and now sneaking on and looking at this last page puts me on edge. I guess I'd have been happier if Mina had just carried on calling you obvtown.

I don't like how bbmolla's team opinion of you seemed to transition into being his opinion (unless he's voting completely on teams view and not his own). I want to hear more about when he decided that. I'll have a closer look at this game in a few hours when I don't risk losing my job in the process.

[Patrick]

Patrick's comments about being nervous also.. make me nervous.

For any reason? I don't think I'd be especially nervous as scum right now.

[Patrick]

I don't remember anyone even saying that apart from Reck's comment through Quilford. And that isn't what put me on edge.

[Patrick]

ETL, I explained what put me on edge about the game in the same post I said I was on edge...

To expand on it, I think Quilford looked really town towards the end of yesterday. I was around for the last day in real time and it felt like Quilford was genuinely unsure what to do. I also thought bringing up that this is my towngame not my scumgame looked town, because as scum he was in a position to profit from people being paranoid about me. I came into today feeling pretty happy that the last scum is either you or bbmolla, and I don't think either of your attacks on him have much if any merit. I would have felt alot better if Mina hadn't started having doubts about Quilford.

The reason people have been disdainful of your arguments is not some kind of scum conspiracy, it's that most of them don't make any sense. Like:

You aren't scum for "just being wrong". You are scum for pushing NOT JUST the townies who were lynched, but being on the wagons with your partner, which not only explains the massive amount of momentum they had, but the lack of viable counterwagons.

This ignores the fact that your argument applies to most players in the game. bbmolla was on the same wagons, and was in fact a step worse because he tried to lynch you yesterday. I was on the Alchemist wagon and would have been on Brian if he hadn't claimed. Mina is the only player that your argument doesn't apply to, and even she lynched Alchemist and was suspicious of BPC/brian slot. Why does your argument only apply to Quilford?

Like, the momentum of support for lynching BB is alarming.

This would make some sense as an argument if we were in lylo. As it is, a minimum of 2 protown players think bbmolla is scummy, and possibly 3. I can kind of see why you'd say this if you're town who genuinely thinks Quilford is scum, but it doesn't make any sense as an argument.

You've also pushed me consistently from the sidelines, waffling on me, because it's clear as shit you don't know how to handle me. You don't know how to get me to townread you and you know I won't just take your shit lying down. If you don't, you should.

See this, also applies to everybody else alive in the game now.

Looking back at how the end of yesterday happened, I think Quilford signed onto the Johnny lynch before Mina did - I don't think Mina begged him to do that at all. If Quilford is scum he played this passage extremely well, because it looks utterly real to me. Mina, what do you think?

[Patrick]

bbmolla, how come you don't sound like you believe it when you made a case against Quilford? How much is it your teams opinion versus your own?

[Patrick]

Looking over dead scums posts, the great thing about rereading serra is it takes so little effort

I still think serra looks like he's buddying with ETL. Also calls Quilford town in his first post. Says the bbmollas opening looks weird/fake according to his team, but doesn't follow up on it at any point. This puts me in two minds:

I'm worried that you think Quil with Reck and UT on his team would be readable by activity alone. I presume that you're right, but I think you're being too simplistic and disregarding context.

Could be critisising Mina's read of Quilford because he knows it's wrong, but wording of "presume its right" kinda makes me think Quilford is town. Donno though.

Pretty bad attack on Mina, sort of uses BPC as a foil for that. Back and forth between serra and Mina doesn't look especially faked.

I don't disagree with mina's read, just with her reasons. I really liked Quil's early argument with alchemist and he was pretty unapologetic in some of his interactions with Mina. Also, I don't really see scum making up the detailed story about posting a readlist similar to Mina's in his PT before she did.

Sort of looks like Quilford is town. Unless serra has a big tendency to side with his partners and call them town, but this doesn't feel natural between partners. Looks like cuddling up to town-Quilford to try and push mislynch on Alchemist.

Signs out calling Mina scum and ETL and Quilford hard town. More of the same, basically.

Johnny's reads on Quilford feels like smooching as well. Plenty of mentions, but the tone is quite full on when he calls him town:

I can't think of Quil as anything but town thanks to Mina's convincing.

Alch's 753 is another good argument for Quil town. That read's probably not going away

and you can try to convince me that Quil's scum but you'd better have a detective hat on.

My townread of Quil is probably bigger than I even originally stated. What I said was something along the lines of "Mina has convinced me that Quil is town," but the more I think about it the less scum Quil makes sense. I don't particularly see scum going so hard at a newb townie day one, when he cracks it looks like genuine anger, and that semantic argument with Espy day one looked like quality "scum wouldn't keep this going" work

And then Quil stated my own case better than I could.

There's probably more but this sums up Johnny's approach to Quilford. He was pretty critical of every other player in some way or another. Did Johnny under pressure decide to roll into the thread and try to paint his scumbuddy as the best thing since sliced white bread? I don't want to close my mind entirely to unusual scum play but I'm not feeling it. Would like to hear some other views on this.

Reading through Johnny's posts I think his stance on bbmolla was all kinds of awkward. I won't quite a fuckton in here because this post is getting long already, but my general impression is he tries very hard to read bbmolla as unreadable/not even playing, which was an exageration that a few people called him on.

That's a false dichotomy if I've ever seen one. I've already said that I came into this game looking to pick holes in people, and BB getting town reads left and right is fucking baffling. I don't know what his alignment is because he hasn't done anything in this game to really tell me what his alignment is. The things I know are:

1. He's put forth more emotion than content
2. If he's town he's bad at it
3. If he's scum he's winning

See my problem with the slot? It's not a scumread, but it's definitely not a townread. So how 'bout this, anyone who has any read on him whatsoever, tell me what and why, and until then I'll just be stating lovingly into his eyes waiting for him to actually do something.

I think this could be Johnny talking about his scumbuddy. It commits him to nothing and gives him an excuse to duck out of giving a stance. It's also plausible that he's pissed off at how many people are correctly reading town-molla. I don't know how much of my read on this is because I found bbmolla scummy coming into this reread, but Johnny definitely feels pretty evasive about giving a read on this slot throughout his entire time alive.

His reads on Mina and ETL don't stand out to me as much. He shoves ETL into rough second place on his list, and it's entirely plausible he came in with a gameplan of mislynching town-BPC and town-ETL for the win. I'm a bit wary of his lack of attempt to get ETL lynched instead of himself on the Sunday though. If ETL is town, this was still a plausible mislynch for him. If they're partners his lack of motivation makes sense, I guess if they aren't Johnny just decided he was done for and clammed up.

Overall I think bbmolla would make a fair bit of a sense as the scumpartner, though the evidence isn't exactly damning - Johnny didn't say much of anything about me or Mina either and then fell away as the day went on longer. But I do feel a bit of awkwardness there, as though he made a conscious effort to not comment on bbmolla's alignment. I think both players in the scum role looked like they were trying to befriend Quilford, Johnny moreso. I came into this thinking Quilford is town though, and if he's not he's got a great shot at winning this game, so I'd really like some input from others. I'm especially interested in Mina's thoughts because I feel like I can predict what the others will say, heh.

[Patrick]

do you think im scum or not patrick

If I had to call it now, I'd guess its you, yeah. I'm not happy enough with that for me to just want to yolo this day though.

[Patrick]

If you're actually town, can you do something worthwhile instead of just screaming about how obviously town you are. Because atm I'm lynching ETL in that endgame, so if Quilford is actually scum, you need to convince me that my read of what serra/johnny were doing is wrong.

Quilford, whats in your head? You must have more than just boring back and forths with ETL and now bbmolla.

[Patrick]

DOES THAT SEEM LIKE ETL TOWN DONE WITH BULLSHIT

OR CALCULATED SCUM

I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR ANSWER

Calculated no. She sounds like she means it, but when so much of it doesn't make any sense its hard to tell. I mean, she didn't exactly sound calculated yesterday but you were happy with lynching her. All that changed as far as I can tell is you're both on the same person today

[Patrick]

There are a few things that give me pause, the number one thing is the fakehammer and Mara claim, which yes, I was initially skeptical about the towniness of this, but each time I go back and read it it looks better and more town. Another thing is the collapse in confidence between days 1 and 2 which feels genuine to me and is played consistently throughout the day. One more thing is that he keeps pumping out WIFOM and I am a huge sucker for WIFOM even though I like to pretend I'm not.

Yep yep yep

[Patrick]

How emotionally do you play face to face mafia? Curious but will probably have no bearing on my read haha.

More than I probably should. And I feel a boat ton of emotions when playing forum mafia, which is one of the reasons I don't really do it anymore. They mainly come out when people attack me with the kind of horseshit ETL has been going after you with (this is not an open invitation for people to attack me with horseshit). Also just before and after a lynch (I think I got about 3 hours sleep that night). If you're town, which I think you are, you'll have to read me in other ways, I'm afraid. I think you are though.

Currently though, I'm enjoying a nice read of your play in Mini 1575. I like that so far you haven't even approached sounding like a real person, heh.

[Patrick]

Do you think its weird how Johnny waffled so much on bbmolla or do you think that's just as likely he was keeping a mislynch open?

[Patrick]

The weird back and forth is weird.

Will sig

[Patrick]

I had a fun day of not thinking about this game. Played netrunner, relaxed, played BSG in the evening. Played as Gaius Baltar and had 4 loyalty cards by the end of the game.

Also finished reading Mafia in the Metro and think if Quilford is playing as scum in this game he must have had a lobotomy in the interim.

I would most like to hear something from Mina right now. I hope you managed to get some of your stuff done.

[Patrick]

Fenchurch corrected me: not a lobotomy, but some kind of brain augmentation. Lobotomy doesn't increase prowess.

[Patrick]

I posted in the PT when I made that post and have not gotten a response yet. I already posted why I think you're scum multiple times. I'm gonna be honest and say the last thing I feel like doing is arguing with YOU about my case on YOU. If Mina, Patrick or BB wants to know, they can ask me themselves. YOU can go fuck yourself.

I already asked you a bunch of stuff about it in 1585, which you just ignored. In general I don't feel like you're scrutinising your own points at all. Like this

Despite being the towniest fucking town to ever town, it is no wonder she is still around. You needed her.

Yeah. Or it might have been the two power roles that needed nightkilling instead. Do you actually have a brain

Really obvious reason for lack of Mina nightkill, just ignored by you so you could respond to the insult instead.

Mina: I know you don't have alot of freetime atm, but we need more from you than "I don't think anyone is scum right now". At least something more specific than just thinking Quilfords posts today are bad. What specifically do you find bad? Do you think my look at partner interactions has any merit, either re Johnny looking awkward around bbmolla, or looking like he was sucking up to Quilford? Do you think it is just possible that Quilford bought a much better scumgame here than he ever has before? Give me something. I'd honestly rather you just spill your mind than worry about whether its going to be 100% convincing right now.

Currently I feel as though everyone has had flashes of town in their play at the very least, but that doesn't mean they're all equal to each other. The main reason I think the scum is in bbmolla/ETL is because there's a probably easier to fake than those from Quilford/Mina. Quilford looks nothing like any scumgame I've read of his (he's made like literally 20x more posts than Mafia in the metro and sounds completely different), and his play at the end of yesterday feels like someone genuinely in the dark about alignments, the way he meandered onto ETL then back to Johnny looks undecided not calculated. I think Mina also felt very genuine towards the end of the day, attacked me in a way that looked like paranoid town, seems pissed off and anxious in a way that looks like paranoid town etc etc blahblahblah. The person with probably the easiest to fake towniness is ETL, I think. Mainly my gut seems to find it vaguely town whenever someone gets aggressive, swears, yells, or similar, but I think ETL could play aggressively as scum. There's a few things that give me pause, like serra's read on ETL and the fact that she pushed Johnny for a while yesterday, but I don't think they are close to the towness I get from Mina/Quilford. Like, if I was afraid to think someone was scum just because they'd given me pause, I'd likely never vote anybody (even lurkerscum extraordinaire serrapaldin managed to look kinda genuine on leaving the game, but you have to be pragmatic at some point).

I do agree bbmolla looks kind of genuine in some of his appeals today. But I've skimmed some of his scum games, including the one Mina linked to before, and I think faking the suicidal pissed off schitck isn't beyond him. His interactions with our dead scum look the worst of all the players imo, and his case on Quilford is pretty empty so far. I don't know which of bbmolla or ETL I think is more likely at this point, and god only knows what I'd do if forced to pick between them in an endgame. My team think it's bbmolla at this point.

tldr; Mina, I would like to hear more from you about something. If you want to call my reads boring/annoying/scummy than have at it, but please try and make some time to get your head into this. I know you have alot going on but I think a replacement would be horrible at this stage.

[Patrick]

Yeah, I didn't mean right this second when timezones clearly suggest you're at work. I just mean in general, I think your comments are important

[Patrick]

I'm just kind of terrified I'm underestimating Quilford.

This is sort of how I feel. I think I just hate the thought of him winning if he;s scum at lynch-1 based on my defence of him. But I don't think there's any real substance to that fear.

[Patrick]

The stop-start feel to this day is annoying.

ETL, was this comment genuine:

I already posted why I think you're scum multiple times. I'm gonna be honest and say the last thing I feel like doing is arguing with YOU about my case on YOU.

If Mina, Patrick or BB wants to know, they can ask me themselves.

YOU can go fuck yourself.

[Patrick]

Vote: ETL

[Patrick]

I also thought bbmolla's loss of confidence entering day 2 looked town. Less impressed by his defence based on that, but meh

Mina, realistically when are you going to have the time to get your head into today?

[Patrick]

Got back from work night out to find approximately 30025 pissed off messages from Fenchurch about this game

Anyway reading up in all seriousness I think ETL is the most likely to be scum. Like, I actually think it's all noise. I don't think she can be genuinely pissed off at people thinking Quilford is town, while being utterly unwilling to engage on the specifics that I shot down and asked her several times to comment on. Pretty sure Mina made a similar request. "I refuse to try and convince scum that they're scum" is pretty empty if you're not willing to engage other people on those points either.

Asking to be lynched doesn't do shit for me either when it doesn't make any sense as a request from town. Like, if an ETL lynch and town-flip would logically lead to a Quilford lynch the next day it would make some sense. As it is, the gamestate pretty clearly doesn't point that way, so why would you want to be lynched if you're town.

Being pulled into BSG now, but Quilford you wanted to talk at some point, I'll be pretty around all weekend. Election result isn't really what I wanted to see, but I don't take that much interest in politics.

[Patrick]

clunk

[Patrick]

Sorry I'm not Mina

[Patrick]

It didn't stand out to me as roflscummy, but I can see what you're getting at, Quilford.

[Patrick]

It's bad but I feel almost no motivation to engage Metal Sonic or try to analyse his posts.

It seems like they just agreed he'd replace in to bring more energy and motivation than bbmolla could to that slot. If it's town I'm guessing Sonic just pushed for it so he could indulge his burning Quilford suspicion. If scum at least it lets that slot wriggle.

Pedit like a hundred times: MS, it's obvious that you came in with the clear intention of voting Quilford and calling him scum. Just cherrypicking a few posts that can be made to look bad doesn't do anything.

[Patrick]

so do forgive me if i show her a bit more favouritism

I don't plan of forgiving this, fyi.

[Patrick]

My team thinks he's town. I'm not town-reading Quilford for his day 1 play, as a quick look at my posts today will tell you. And maybe I am conf-biasing a bit, but I actually gave his play quite alot of scrutiny because two other players today voted him and Mina expressed her doubts as well, not to mention the teams of the people involved. I looked at his play yesterday, his interactions with scum to try and see if there might be a connection. I don't feel like there is. I asked for feedback but got little, only really Mina saying she kinda agrees but that Regfan kinda disagrees.

I also asked Mina for detail on why she was paranoid, and have asked ETL several times to engage on her Quilford points, which as it stands don't make sense. She just ignored me, despite saying she was open to explaining them to anyone not named Quilford. Although I've seen her as possibly just pain in the arse stubborn town for much of the game, I feel like she's just so evasive and so unhelpful that it looks deliberate at this point. If Quilford is scum and wins I'll be gutted and take it on the chin as being my fault, but I'll also be pissed at ETL and bbmolla for being so fucking useless today and not trying to convince me.

I agree about asking for Mina's team input. But really I'd just like to see anything from her thats more than just popping in.

[Patrick]

removing me from the game pre-lylo means in lylo, considering one of you or mina die tonight, that leaves only quil/patrick to choose from. that is a MUCH better choice than trying to decide between me/patrick, specifically because of inherent paranoia about my play.

I don't even understand these scenarios though. In the second one, it seems like Quilford has to be town because the decision is between me and you.

[Patrick]

If you have no doubt that Quilford is scum, lynching you is a horrible scenario because I'm not inclined to lynch Quilford tomorrow if I'm alive and Mina doesn't sound like she is either. That's what I'm getting at when I say that your offer to be lynched makes no sense.

[Patrick]

I feel like I've made it obvious pretty much forever now that I think Mina and Quilford are town and that the last scum is you or bbmolla (now MS).

I wouldn't vote immediately in any endgame because its a terrible idea, but if faced with a choice between Quilford and MS, it would take alot to get me to vote Quilford.

My point being that in a scenario where you're town who's sure Quilford is scum, that's a pretty terrible situation to acquiesce to. Are you saying you didn't have a clear idea what my suspicions were from my posts then?

[Patrick]

Patrick, thoughts on MS?

It's pretty hard to read him when he's so openly come into the thread with an agenda. I think alot of his comments attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole to suit his view of the game: he's attacked Quilford over alot of things done by others as well. He's painted bbmolla as someone who was on Johnny's case and gone after Quilford for deflecting from a Johnny lynch, whereas I think anyone with an even slightly open-mind would read back and see that bbmolla was the standout deflector of that lynch.

bbmolla's replace out looked mildly town, but like I said, serrapaladin managed that to an extent and I think it's well within scum-range. It's even possible Metal Sonic told him to do it before leaving, given that he's come in and immediately pointed to it as making bbmolla obvobvotown.

I think he looks OK in his entry to the game. I think his case against Quilford is more noise than substance, but it's easy to believe him believing it. I'd still favour lynching ETL over him, and still favour lynching Metal Sonic after if an ETL lynch doesn't end of the game.

Here's a really lame reason for why I should be towntowntown @Mina

Do you really think that I would replace into a scum slot for Molla just after tilting a scumgame?

CDB's reaction to this was along the lines of "fuck this shit" and this is one of the few posts from MS that gives me the creeps. Because it's completely obvious that your replace in was to improve your slots chances of winning. I can tell right now what the thinking was for each alignment:
Town slot - Metal Sonic is probably yelling at bbmolla to string up Quilford, and bbmolla is conflicted and almost paralysed with fear about the idea of even looking at this game. Metal Sonic offers to relieve bbmolla of the game and show us all that Quilford is literally the worst thing in the entire world.
Scum slot - bbmolla is in trouble, his emotional appeals and offers to be lynched aren't really getting him off the hook. Metal Sonic replaces in to fill the thread with posts and try to muddy the waters.

I realise I haven't said alot beyond the obvious, but I don't think his alignment is easy to discern from what he's posted in here. I disagree that being consistent in thought process is a town-sign, he made it very obvious what he's trying to do and so I'd expect him to be consistent. I did like where he asked ETL a few questions and asked Quilford about his reads on Mina/me, even if the last bit was mainly to try and find ammo against Quilford.

Only just saw it again, but this is borked:

And JF did something where he townread Alchemist to high heavens but called everyone else scummy, so that's why I'm looking out for that kind of behaviour.

Exactly.

This is the quintessential reason why Molla's replace out was town.

Scum would have called everyone else scummy

Mina is talking about your own behaviour of just calling Alchemist obvobvtown because he's a publicly flipped protown player - this is what Johnny did as well. It's more annoying than alignment telling imo, but annoying it is. Again I don't like how you're using that as a reason to plug how obvobvtown bbmolla was in replacing out. I've played games as scum where I've struggled to invent any reasons to suspect town players, and bbmollas reasons on day 3 weren't exactly stellar.

Patrick, can you summarize the zillion messages Fenchurch sent you?

Tens of thousands rather than zillions, but sure. The ETL/Quilford exchange was driving her mad, mainly on ETL's end. She started off thinking bbmolla might be a bit more likely than ETL because she thinks ETL plays weirdly as town as well, but by the end of her own stream of messages she decided ETL was more likely. I think Fenchurch sees elements of what she's done as scum herself in the past; when challenged, just repeating and reasserting her own positions as though there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with them. ETL's offers to be lynched gave her pause, but again I think she convinced herself of the opposite because ETL's lynch wouldn't lead to a Quilford lynch the following day, which means offering to be lynched doesn't make sense. CES also popped in after to say that he would also be lynching ETL right now. CDB I think has had more of a town read on her and would favour a Metal Sonic lynch.

Mina: your team seems to prefer an ETL lynch. What lynch do you prefer personally?

[Patrick]

Honestly, that sort of thing should get him a temp ban if he actually said it. If you're trying that as a desperate throw you went too far.

[Patrick]

Don't bother, ETL. I looked at your play in Antihero Redemption, where you clawed and scraped your way to a scum win by pouring emotion into the thread, insulting people, and expressing disgust at the gamestate. I don't want to see or hear any more of it.

[Patrick]

sthars letter + you posting it feels more like direct insult than anything usefully related to the game. The only content given by sthar is to say that I'm scum for lining up two suspects, which is something everybody in the game is doing, in case you hadn't noticed. We have our top suspects, and also think about who might be scum if the top suspect flips town. But you know that.

The meta isn't that being a royal bitch is something you do exclusively as scum. I'm sure you can produce a ton of games where you've played that way as town. It's more that I think you're capable of doing as scum, whereas previously I thought you might be town for getting angry and being such a huge pain. Alot of people are more ornery as town and can't replicate it convincingly when scum. Apparently that's not the case for you.

[Patrick]

Ultimately, it's your role PM.

You're scum because almost all your votes in this game apart from RVS ones have sucked, your reasoning for almost everything makes babies cry in the streets, and because you feel super-evasive in actually getting into specifics of your case against Quilford, despite apparently being convinced he's scum. You disengaged from some painful argument you were having with Quilford earlier today saying that you wouldn't argue with scum, but that you'd explain it to any other player in the game. I tried to get you to do that several times and you completely ignored it. I think if you were a town player who thinks Quilford is dirty you'd be keen to prop up your points against him and try and convince me that my read is wrong, instead of having to be dragged kicking and screaming to it.

I've also felt like on many occasions you've just been grabbing hold of whatever you can without even thinking about what it means re-alignment. Your comments on me just now are just one case of it. Do you actually, genuinely believe that I was calling your attitude a scum-tell and then backpedaled to calling it a null tell when you hit me with your super l33t argument? The real reason I brought up that game is because I think some people may be town-reading you because of your attitude, and I want to demonstrate that it's a mistake. I just see you point-scoring in all your scraps with people all game. To an extent there's that in some of Quilfords arguing with you as well, but more recently his exchanges with MS and you left me with the impression he was trying to figure things out. From you, I don't get that vibe. Like, before you even respond, I can imagine you'll pick out whatever you think is most attackable and make another post full of hyperbole about it.

The biggest reason is that Quilford and Mina are town, bringing you down to one of two. I had my period of paranoia earlier this game day, then slowly started to realise there was no substance to the case you were making. Between you and Metal Sonic, I think you're the more likely to be scum by a fair margin.

That's a pretty brief summary, but I'm not going to waste time building a big case with post numbers and quotes when I expect you to be lynched anyway before too long. Like you've told Quilford enough times, it's very hard to convince scum that they are scum.

[Patrick]

Just because I "have an agenda" doesn't mean I am wrong. It's a town agenda ffs I want to win as much as you do

I want you to take my faith in reading ETL cause you say there is at least 1 town in me/ms and we are mutually townreading each other (her more so than me)

Yeah, I'm not saying its a scum agenda, but even if I assume you're town, I doubt the validity of your arguments when you enter the game having already decided who the scum is. Posts like 1841 don't make me want to trust your judgement at all.

There is also at least one townie within me/Quilford. Are you happy to take on faith my read of him? Why is your read different?

Ok, I know you were in Antihero. Take Quilford out of the equation for a second, what do you think of ETL's play in this game? Is she trying to work me out? Her last response to me is pretty much exactly what I expected.

Also, why did the last page or so make you feel a great deal of paranoia about me?

[Patrick]

Also, can you talk more about this:

Patrick not considering partner associations. Couldn't be ETL cause ETL pushed JF when there was no scum motivation to.

I am considering associations, which you've obviously seen since you've read up on all of day 3 - and this is one of the things that gives me doubt about ETL being scum. But ultimately, she moved her vote off Johnny and onto Quilford, then wasn't around for the deadline, which is a shame because I think that stretch told us plenty.

[Patrick]

Mina, we're at just under 48 hours now. Is the token line of enquiry an important one?

[Patrick]

You are doubting the validity of my arguments because of the provenance? That's not even legit and quilford also knows it. How many games have you played with quilford?

This is my first game with him. Does that mean I can't try and read him? Have you played with him before?

I dunno, probably because if you are scum you win. By stonewalling quilford, if ETL dies today then I die Tmr. If quil dies today and is town then ETL dies tomorrow

This isn't an answer; you declared great paranoia of me immediately after my spat with ETL. I want to know why.

[Patrick]

This is getting us nowhere. I'm sorely disappointed that Mina didn't post anything last night, because her input is what we need most, and have for a while. Mina, what the hell are you doing? Even posting something insightful from your team or from you is not going to help much if it comes 3 hours before the deadline. I want to know what you think of the gamestate, who you want to lynch and what your fears are. If that comes with supplementary stuff from your team then so much the better, but I don't want to wait on it. We're running out of time.

Quilford, why no vote on ETL? Is Metal Sonic still a possibly better lynch in your mind?

[Patrick]

Sorry for the condascension. I've just got increasingly frustrated with the bullshit piling up in this game, and felt like the game was waiting mainly on you, regardless of any comparisons between my contribution and yours. I'm normally an advocate of taking it slowly as well.

I got 100% on the mini test! To be fair, I knew the right answer already in two.

[Patrick]

She's scum, dude. Sorry you had to find out this way.

You guys are going to force me to stay up till 2am again aren't you?

[Patrick]

(I would really like Patrick's thoughts now. And...ETL's thoughts. *sigh* Rereading hasn't been comforting.)

What are you looking for thoughts about? I am honest to god losing my will to live as my eyes glaze over more and more crap. I feel more comfortable with my vote than I probably was 24 hours ago, but mainly because Metal Sonic has repeated himself so many times and in such large letters that I think he believes it. It's obvious to me that you're town and you're worried that if I'm scum I'm going to coast to a win off this lynch, but what the shit do you want from me? We don't have any investigative roles alive so we're never going to have definitive evidence, eventually you just have to make your bed and lie in it. Like I said, I had my period of fear and paranoia that Quilford might be playing me for a fool and that I'd look like an absolute idiot if I allowed him to win while a bunch of people were screaming the right answer at their screen. Hell, I even had a period about you simply because of how absent you were from most of the day, even though I'm fully aware there are reasons for the absence. I just don't think we're doing anything now other than maybe taking a few years off our collective lives.

I don't think ETL's switch to me is much of a tell either way, and her response to my explaining why I think she's scum was exactly what I expected. I had zero interest in getting into some stupid pendantic debate that will add even more pages to this game and allow ETL to create even more noise. If you think it's going to say something important about my alignment, then I'll do it, but you'd better have a damn good reason.

If you have something interesting to talk about then go for it. I'm just not interested in waiting until the last second for the sake of it, especially not when it will force me to stay up into the small hours to see whether we've won or not.

[Patrick]

Additionally, sthar has brought up several points against Patrick, which I posted.

Points brought up by sthar that I can find:

he doesn't like Patrick because he is trying to set up multiple lynches and assuming the game goes another day rather than ending today with the lynch of his supposed scumread.

Already responded to this, and it's sheer nonsense. I'm considering the possibility that you're town because I'm not so arrogant to think I'm 100% likely to be right, and everybody (including you) is doing the same. I could equally accuse you of trying to set up multiple lynches by discrediting me.

sthar says you are attempting to take the "moral high ground" in order to justify lynching me on rather than logic. he says it's a scum tactic.

No, I thought that taking the time to type out and post that letter was pretty offensive, and my opinion of both of you went down as a result. I don't even know what scum-motivation you're assigning to me; you think I'm trying to get you lynched because you insulted someone? No idea what you're arguing here.

sthar says Patrick is trying to discredit metal sonic by trying to make it look like everything he posts has an agenda. He says he's doing the same thing to me by dismissing everything I say as AtE when it isn't and suggesting that sthar's broken rules when he hasn't.

Maybe I have a different understanding of the word agenda to most people here, since Metal Sonic seemed surprised by this. To me it's patently obvious that he came in with an agenda, since he stated it in his very first post of the game. I don't mean that he has a scum agenda. As for you, I do feel that your posts contain a shiton of hyperbole and noise, often replacing actual substance. I do not get the slightest feeling that you're evaluating your points or sthars points and trying to decide whether they're valid. I get the feeling of someone throwing everything including the kitchen sink, and I've had this feeling from you in alot of the arguments you've had with Quilford.

[Patrick]

I just did what I said I wasn't going to. I seriously don't think more multi-quote debates is what this game needs right now.

[Patrick]

What did you mean by this here?

(Because I legitimately think you're a GREAT fit for a serra partner based on interactions--the first quote is an example to why.)

I meant that I was pretty unsure about his alignment? It's what it says on the tin.

If you're asking about the second quote, the bunch of stuff I thought was null was in the first 4 pages. I said that I wasn't interested in picking at it when I thought alchemist looked legitimately scummy.

[Patrick]

jesus christ Mina

[Patrick]

I feel sick, jesus.

Quilford, please just vote. You don't have to be the hammer. I can't sit through another hour of this.

[Patrick]

This is hideous. It seems bleeding obvious that Quilford is town and you keep quoting literally everything he says and calling him scum. Please stop it.

[Patrick]

Mina are you fucking stupid? I feel sick because you're doing what you do around every single fucking lynch, which is to find reasons to be paranoid and second guess yourself. At some point Fenchurch even said she thought you were town because she saw you doing to Quilford exactly what you did to the Ampersand hydra in wicked, which was to read them as town most of the game and then rebuild them as a scummy player and lose because of it.

I feel sick sitting here watching you do this, while the quilford/MS thing keeps going on and on with no sign of ending. I feel sick with worry because lynching me will likely lose the game to ETL-scum, when she has absolutely no right to win it. And its killing me right now

[Patrick]

It's unbelievably frustrating.

[Patrick]

What more? The other suggestion on the table is to lynch a more likely townie now as protection against the possibility of me being scum. What else do you want me to feel about it? I'll do it if it's the choice between that and a no-lynch, but I'd rather lynch the likeliest scum now.

[Patrick]

...okay, I was hoping you'd say something that sounded really town in response instead.

You enjoy pain don't you. I mean, what I said is exactly whats going through my head right now. I don't know what you think is wrong with my view of the situation now. To me, thats the other option being put forward. If you disagree, please say why.

[Patrick]

You and your team have mentioned that exchange a few times. I don't think it looks much like bussing, mainly because he doesn't express clear suspicion of bbmolla, more that he just says he isn't especially town or scum. I did bring it up in my catchup, where I said that Johnny's stance on bbmolla was all kinds of awkward, and that was one of the posts I had in mind.

[Patrick]

It was more that I was hoping for a response brimming with townie passion or something.

If you can't read it then I don't know what to say to you. I hate what the pair of you have done this evening, and thats fully assuming both of you are town. I don't believe that it can be that difficult to discern my alignment at this point in the game

[Patrick]

So I thought, but apparently not, because it's such a struggle? Protown in the strictly narrow sense, but unecessary and rather cruel, especially at this hour.

ETL's vote and pressure on Johnny early on in day 2 is one of the things that puts me in doubt about the pairing. The other thing being the nagging feeling that serra was buddying. I don't think that exchange specifically is beyond possible bussing, but it does make me worry. Regardless of it I still think she's scum for a bunch of reasons, not least because I think other people are town.

[Patrick]

Never have I wanted someone to flip scum as badly as I do now.

[Patrick]

Quilford I swear I'm not scum. I've been killing myself over this game and I'm hoping to hell its over. Me and CDB are sitting here like a couple of jellybabies.

[Patrick]

I feel like everyone who's been here is town, MS =/

[Patrick]

The hell is this. He HAS to be aware that we've lynched someone.

[Patrick]

Vote: zoraster

=/

[Patrick]

Got less than 3 hours =(

[Patrick]

adrenaline after turning off the computer. I didn't actually wait up until 4am. Forgiven if she flips scum.

[Patrick]

He gave us the JohnnyFarrar flip in under 90 minutes, so I'm not sure about that.

[Patrick]

It's just gone 8am here and I have to go to work soon.

[Patrick]

Well, I don't know whether this little chat helped or not. See you all on the other side.

[Patrick]

It would be much much better if work was busy <.<

[Patrick]

In fairness to him, he's probably still asleep now. Just gone 7am where he is.

[Patrick]

Please tell me you're screwing with us.

[Patrick]

Both of the last two scum in nightless pretended after being lynched.

If you're town and you can genuinely read that into my posting I don't know what to say.