Newbie 1613: Mafia in the Summer (Game Over)

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

OK, so the replacement buys a little time. I haven't read through anything but the last couple of posts yet, but I'll catch up ASAP.

In the meantime, if the players on the LQ wagon would be so kind as to summarize their take on the case, I'd appreciate it.

Meanwhile, I don't want anyone quickhammering the slot while I catch up.

UNVOTE: LicketyQuickety

I'll put the vote back up after my catch-up if the slot warrants a vote. There will not be a no-lynch on my account.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why is *nobody* on the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator's slot? Has no one noticed the slot active lurking and that the one and only vote cast by that slot dates back to RVS and no reason is given for keeping that vote there?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Mod - isn't the Ilhom slot due for prodding / replacement? Hasn't posted in nearly four days.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Finished skimming the thread. I'm not doing a big wall catch-up post, if anyone has questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

Aneninen - null-town
juckter - null-town
notscience vs DP - appears to be town-vs-town.
LQ - scum
Zen - null-scum
Ilhom - null-scum
JTC - null-scum

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I curious why you have so many scum reads.

I have many null-scum reads, which is to say they're mostly null but I see on the balance scummy behavior from those slots. How many reads do you think I should have?

A separate matter that may not mean anything: In my experience scum is more likely to replace out than town... Does anyone know why fp replaced out?

Your experience isn't statistically significant. However, it is true, that in the Newbie queue, replacements are more likely to be newb scum than anything else. What of it?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why is *nobody* on the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator's slot? Has no one noticed the slot active lurking and that the one and only vote cast by that slot dates back to RVS and no reason is given for keeping that vote there?

The slot was replaced 3 days ago, and honestly pre/post replacement has not provided much for creating a read, at least for me. Pre-replacement (delzdirs) was pretty much

MIA for about a week

, and their

content was lackluster

with

questions that went no where

. The issue is, is that this has been about a 6 person game from the start, which is pretty terrible. A majority of those players are pretty set on their current vote of Lickety and most likely will not be developing new reads until he is gone.

(emphasis mine)

You don't find those three bolded elements of your post significant enough to form a read?

The problem I see here is that with the extreme focus that the playerlist has had on first you, and now LQ is allowing other possible scum slots to fly under the radar. IOW, you guys aren't seeing the forest for all the damn trees.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

We simply don't have time to start another wagon in 5 hours or so.

We have a 48 hour extension.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

We simply don't have time to start another wagon in 5 hours or so.

We have a 48 hour extension.

Do we?

Yeah, look at the post right above yours.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Just because we have an extension doesn't always mean that it's hte best idea to completely dismantle an already exisiting wagon for a last second scramble. I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to the wagon, but i can think of some players who are increasingly good at spur of the moment last second wagons on town.

I'm not suggesting that's what needs to happen. I *am* suggesting that there are overlooked player slots in the game that could stand some close scrutiny. It doesn't have to happen today, but it does need to happen.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Equinox

LicketyQuickety (4) - Aneninen,

notscience

, DoctorPepper, Cthulhu Dreaming
[...]
Ilhom (1) -

notscience

[...]

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Very well - someone's going to need to step up and hammer.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Indeed, around half the playerlist seems AWOL / close to prod range. This degree of apathy is distressing.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

The above makes me think JTC is more likely to be town.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

On my way to bed, I'll be back tomorrow.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why is *nobody* on the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator's slot? Has no one noticed the slot active lurking and that the one and only vote cast by that slot dates back to RVS and no reason is given for keeping that vote there?

I studied the possible setups. We can be in 1,3 C or B

Please explain your reasoning.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@radmann9
@Bulbazoor

Rather than this uninteresting back-and-forth, how about we get some reads from both of you?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Incidentally, voting someone for due to the night extension is a poor reason. I could see myself voting my slot, but not for that.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Umm... what do you mean by a 'read?' Just who I think is guilty?

There are 8 player slots remaining. Based on prior posts, which of us seems town to you, which seems scum, and which are you undecided on?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Scum: del ( nowrad)
Town:Doctor
Null: anen ( slight townlean)

Fake plants ( null scumlean)

Notscience ( null)

You ctulhuhu( null)

You understand that the bolded players are the same player slot and that fake plants is no longer in the game?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why is *nobody* on the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator's slot? Has no one noticed the slot active lurking and that the one and only vote cast by that slot dates back to RVS and no reason is given for keeping that vote there?

I studied the possible setups. We can be in 1,3 C or B

Please explain your reasoning.

I do not have to explain my reasoning. Lickety flipped mafia goon, so I analyzed every column plus row with a goon in it and iI myself made the possible list of setups.

*Every* setup in Matrix6 has a goon in it.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why is *nobody* on the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator's slot? Has no one noticed the slot active lurking and that the one and only vote cast by that slot dates back to RVS and no reason is given for keeping that vote there?

This was a push on del and now you are telling me that I can not vote him?

Why on earth would you think I'm telling you not to vote someone I have a scum read on? I'm telling you that the reasons you gave were poor, not that the slot isn't a good place to put a vote.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

So you are null scumlean then

Care to explain your non-null reads?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Aenenien's thought processes in 393 are very close to my own. I'm going to withhold my vote for now until others have a chance to weigh in but I intend to vote for Radmann when the time comes.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Jucker. He told that he would hammer LQ before Deadline... but it never happened. Sometimes scums are tiptoeing around a wagon on their buddy without voting for them. But, apart from being away, Juckter has done nothing scummy so far.

He said he would hammer then vanished when the time came. It could either have been purposeful to mess up the vote by not having enough numbers or it could have just been a case of him vanishing. Hard to tell, but with him not responding since, it makes sense that it would be the latter. Unsure...

I'll vote either Juckter or notscience depending on what they have to say.

It's only fair to point out that juckter said he would be online "at deadline" and JTC hammered two hours prior to deadline - so there's a third option: Someone else beat him to it. Why ignore that possibility?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Then only four votes later, he switches sides for no reasons other than he saw the tide turning. Looks an awful lot like bussing to me.

It looks an awful lot like not bussing to me.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm not interested in voting anyone today that was on the LQ wagon at hammer yesterday.

@JTC I like your reasoning in most spots but I don't care for your conclusion on notscience, nor do I think radmann deserves a null.

How about a juckter/radmann 1v1?

VOTE: radmann9

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm really not liking that juckter was on eight hours ago and didn't see fit to grace us with a post even though he's at L-2.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm really not liking that juckter was on eight hours ago and didn't see fit to grace us with a post even though he's at L-2.

I'm online a fair amount posting in GD and not games because I dont have time to do game stuff at work

So I dont really see the issue

Perhaps that's all it is - no way to tell, unfortunately unless he decides to post.

Do you intend to get on the radmann wagon?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

i do not like radmann so far

Explain this please.

For one he obviously hasnt read the thread. He claimed I basically am pushing for a notscience lynch for shits and giggles even if I had a great suspicion for him day one.

Would you mind summarizing your case? I for one am not seeing it and it looks like an unproductive TvT at this point.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

(obligatory drinkypost)

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@all - I'm not able to spend a lot of time here, we've got a very sick cat to care for. The situation is grim but perhaps taking a turn for the positive.

Regarding Aneninen's questions, I'm going to wait to answer until juckter has had an opportunity to as his answers are going to be more useful to sorting the playerlist than mine will be.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Well, if he doesn't have anything to say by the time I check tomorrow morning, I intend to vote him to L-1.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Ugh i hate ti say this but i think hes gonna be replaced. Which could actually make him scummier. Could either mean his kill failed or he didnt submit one. Which also makes sense he would lose hope as he would be the only scum left with no dead town

Yeah, I see what you're saying, we can cross that bridge when we get to it.

Certainly the remaining scum is in an unenviable position.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm going to hold off on putting the juckter/Drixx slot at L-1 for the time being in the interest of giving Drixx a chance to catch up and contribute.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Indeed. Do you intend to do a read through and give your impressions?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

There aren't that many posts, so I'll certainly read the thread. I was just wondering if someone could summarize the reasons.

Personally I'd rather see you give your impression of the game state to assist in sorting you.

As far as I'm concerned (and I may be alone in this), my desire to vote your slot is largely for pressure to see some production out of the slot.

As widely scum read as your slot happens to be, I'm not particularly interested in commenting much more than that until I have your reads.

It's up to you whether you want to cooperate with that effort or not.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I guess what counts as "a lot" of posts is subjective.

I just finished a game that went nearly 12,000 posts.

I guess I've got some reading and some questions to answer. I love no-win hypothetical questions ... they're so awesome.

Then this one should be a breeze to read, yes? When can we expect your summary?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I gotta say, Drixx, I'm somewhat familiar with your history and tbf, I'll see your flip before I let you stall this game out.

UNVOTE: Radmann9
VOTE: Drixx

That's L-1 if I'm not mistaken.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

My history? Please link to a completed game on site where I was a lurk sack and didn't play the game, as any alignment. You can't, because such a game doesn't exist.

That's not what I claimed *at all*. Anyone who wants to see the kind of shit I don't want to see in this game is welcome to read day one of Mini 1666. Dragging your feet. Obstinately refusing to help town (as town). Promising content and failing to deliver.

Come on now ... this should be really easy, whomever you are hiding behind an alt.

Not an alt.

If you got a problem with me, how bout you man up and hash it out in private like an adult instead of dragging a bullshit untrue claim into a newbie game, yeah? There are certain things that just shouldn't happen in newbie games. People hiding on alts and taking shots at someone they don't like (for any reason, whether justified or not) is one of those things. Rule breaking is another.

Let's see that link.

As I said, I'm not an alt. I've never been in a game with you. I have read more than one, though, and I know somene who has.

Seriously, dude, read the game and give your impression. In the time you're taking to avoid reading the game, you could be doing so right now.

I think your slot is scum. Do something to prove me wrong. Do *something*.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm not attaching you for being a serial lurker, Drixx. I'm attacking you because your predecessor was scummy, and since your arrival, you've done Jack shit to change that assessment. I'm specifically *not* attacking you for that, but I am putting you on notice that the clock is ticking and I have little patience for stalling tactics from widely scum-read slots.

So do something to help town. What you're doing isn't it.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'll take the vote off as soon as you start appearing more concerned with finding scum than defending yourself, and not a second sooner.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

IOW it appears you've got all the time in the world to write defensive walls, but no time to find scum.

As long as that remains true, I want you to flip.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

To everyone else - thus us precisely the kind of posting I was talking about. Defensive and unproductive. Don't make my word for it, though. Read it for yourself.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

You're misrepping, Drixx. I told you your defensiveness wasn't *productive* not that it was scummy.

Produce something useful or eat a rope.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

While I'm thinking about it, and before I progress far enough into the game to have any firm reads ... what CD is doing right now looks like an exceptionally good strategy if "it" is scum. If I come out of the reading of the game and I believe he's the remaining scum, he gets to say that I'm just saying he's scum because he launched an attack on me. It won't matter what I can quote or show in the game flow ... he's set himself up to have a defense against me. If he's scum, that's actually a pretty clever move. I'm not sure I would waste that kind of play in the RtR, but to each his own I guess.

I'm going to make a bold prediction and say that I won't be doing this. One, because I'm not scum, and two, because I don't think that anyone who has actually read the game thinks I'm scum.

I can't speak for the what the rest of the player list will think of it, though.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

That's L-2 BTW. Both radman and Drixx are at L-2 now.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why the change, Bulba?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Care to elucidate your reasons?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@bulba - Seriously, do not talk about ongoing games.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Sorry

Just don't want to see anyone get modkilled.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I am starting to doubt juck as scum. Well not juck, drixx.

I do not see a reason why you should begin to doubt scum on the juckter/Drixx slot. There really has not be any new development as it pertains to this game as the content he has been providing is about a previous game he played; I realize this was brought up by Cthulhu. Not a huge fan of the back & forth between Drixx and Cthulhu, but I think it is making Drixx a little 'hot' which is a good thing.

Bulbazoor changing his vote though does make him read slightly more null than scum to me. He actually started the wagon on juckter/Drixx, so why abandon an L-1 vote at this point. Maybe he thinks it is actually going through and does not want to be connected to it assuming juckter/Drixx flip town. Not the case in my opinion, but it is plausible. I do not think mafia leaves that vote in this stage of the game.

Welcome to the game Drixx.

I would not make this assumption. When scum starts a wagon, when do you think they're going to jump off to distance themselves from a mislynch? Of the players that weren't in on LQ's lynch, Bulbazoor is the least suspicious to me, but his vote change doesn't lessen any suspicion.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Given the amount of stall that happened in the game on day one, I'm even more irritated by CD's bullshit attack on me.

Really? Was I even *in the game* at that point?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why the unvote?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Not a huge fan of the back & forth between Drixx and Cthulhu, but I think it is making Drixx a little 'hot' which is a good thing.

Ssshhh.... There's method to the madness.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

All caught up now.

Reads?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

You're barking up the wrong tree.

"Look how town I am."

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Let's have some reads, Drixx. Who's town? As far as I can see, you're casting shade on half the damn player list.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

*more than half of the player list

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I would be very surprised if you flipped scum, CD.

That would make two of us.

You've been far too aggressive since replacing into a slot that was widely town read. You could have coasted quite easily on it.

I'm pretty sure scum is in the following three:

notscience
aneninen
JTC

I would not vote any of those three today for love or money. Maybe tomorrow. I don't see any of the three being a viable lynch for today.

I don't view any of the remaining 3 players as far enough away from null to decide. If I've managed to buy my life for a time, you'll see me push people.

If you had bothered to do more than read a game where I was experimenting with my game and mangled it badly, you would have seen that I do quite a good job of getting reactions from people so I can read them.

Seriously, that's not the only game I've read. Hint: Kitty Galore is my girlfriend.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Where's your vote, notscience?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

On noone because I'm not really sure who I want to vote!

TBF, I'm a little concerned by this. What can we do to progress the gamestate to where you're willing to take a stand?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Let it go, Drixx - this continued self-defense is distracting you from the task at hand: finding scum.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

No, but what I do get to do is refuse to respond to that any longer.

So, Drixx, it's your position that scum hard bussed scum on day one? I find that hard to believe.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

How many newb games have you seen where scum hard bussed scum on day one?

Any?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

If your theory of game is that scum won't vote for each other, you are going to lose a lot of games.

If that were my theory, yeah.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Play the game some more. You'll see all sorts of crazy things happen.

This seems to imply that you've seen it happen before.

Then when queried on that...

How many newb games have you seen where scum hard bussed scum on day one?

Any?

Prior games have no direct impact on the current game.

It seems that perhaps you haven't.

The point was, if it escaped you, was that scum hard bussing scum on day one *seems* to be a rather rare event, and when we're attempting to find scum, jumping to a conclusion that's based an unlikely, rare event seems to be the antithesis of what is most likely to have occurred.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Drixx

Why am I the only player you're having any kind of interaction with? You are, if I'm not terribly mistaken, reading me as town.

Why aren't you pressuring your scum reads?

Why aren't you pressuring your null reads?

Why aren't you pressuring *anyone*?

Why are you claiming that scum had to be on LQ's wagon, and couldn't have had a vote elsewhere when

your own readlist has three candidates that you feel are worthy of a vote

? Even in the case where there's a fairly obvious day one lynch, it's pretty easy for scum to vote elsewhere - and you must necessarily believe that, because three people *were* voting elsewhere, and you aren't scum reading any of them.

Everyone else:

Lynch this guy already.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Bulbazoor is your 2nd scum.

CD - The only person I had suspicion on that has even checked in since I caught up and made a wall of quotes was notscience, and it was a flyby with two useless posts. You're going to see me flip town whenever the mod gets around to confirming the lock, but please do explain how I pressure someone who isn't here. That would be a great trick.

So? In what way does that prevent you from asking questions?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Count the boys again. That's L-1.

Nice try, scum.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Someone declare intent on this obvscum.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Count the boys again. That's L-1.

Nice try, scum.

Votes.

Damn autocorrect.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why? Because he insists that he is?

What actions has he taken that are town indicative?

Actions speak much louder than words.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

The questions still stand, Drixx - why aren't you pressuring anyone?

Why do you assume that scum couldn't be off the wagon? Its a necessary implication of your readlist, and its incoherent with the fact that you aren't suspecting anyone off the wagon. Yep, scum could be in the wagon for towncred, if it were any other say than D1, I'd give that some serious consideration - but not today.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Drixx, you were not even in the game yesterday.

Drixx makes the mistake of assuming others would make the same plays as himself, an he appears to want us to play the same way.

Sorry, no, I'll go with where probability tells me the most likely scum is, not some narrative pushed by my suspect.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why? Because he insists that he is?

What actions has he taken that are town indicative?

Actions speak much louder than words.

Why are you town? Because you say so? Your slot was middle of the road on day one.

Have I said so? I know *you* did. Perhaps you ought to ask the whole of the playerlist that question, since they're the ones that are town reading me.

What actions am I meant to have taken so far?

You could have asked questions of your scum reads, voted your top scum read, or even taken a clear stand as to the order of your reads, that sort of thing - none of those things. It doesn't appear that you're even trying to find scum.

I stopped pressuring you for the rest of yesterday up until this morning my time, to see if any of that changed. From my POV, it hansn't. I don't feel a need to continue pressuring you, my vote stays where it is until there's some significant change. Likewise, I'm going to discontinue the back and forth between you and I because further interaction doesn't seem fruitful.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

For the benefit of the newer players, Drixx is at L-1, one vote away from being lynched.

Nobody should hammer without stating intent and giving sufficient time for a claim, to allow Drixx to post his final thoughts and reads, and to give other people on the wagon a chance to withdraw their votes in the event that they've changed their minds about lynching him.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Clearly then, unless notscience expresses an interest in the wagon, it'll be time to move on to other possibilities.

@Aenenien - can you elaborate on how you view Drixx's scum meta? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong, but I'd like to know what it is you see/don't see that leads you to that conclusion.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Radmann's answer stands out for me. He mentioned the 1–Shot Bulletproof and the Doctor... but totally ignored the Jailkeeper. Doctor is in Setup 2 and C, 1–Shot Bulletproof is in 3 and A. I think he had been thinking about this question before I asked it. His answer looked like an answer from a Mafia Roleblocker; he seemed to know more about the Setup than we know.

I completely missed this, and it's an excellent observation.

UNVOTE: Drixx
VOTE: Radmann9

I'm unwilling to lynch Drixx until Radmann's alive.

assuming you mean "while" and not "until".

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I know you aren't interested in my answers, but for the record, I would have probably killed you, DP or notscience (experience, yo) and the only speculation that I'm willing to make on the no-kill was that I think it's unlikely that it was intentional.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

(Why would a Jailkeeper have targetted me?)

If there is a jailkeeper, they could have targetted an almost completely unknown player slot.

Sure. But it's unlikely that both a hypothetical JK and the night kill target the same player on N1.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

To clarify the above, we shouldn't be looking to unlikely coincidences to explain what happened. It's a possibility, sure, but unless there's good reason to think an unlikely scenario is more likely than what random chance indicates, it shouldn't be given much weight.

Pedit: Well, duh, no kidding Drixx - what circumstances indicate such a convergence?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@CD - I already have asked a very critical question, and DP came in and voted me afterward. I think that may be significant.

What question was that? I must have missed it.

Radmann's post is awful, by the way. That's currently hovering very close to "too awful to actually be scum" it's so bad. There was no kill because the slot I replaced into flaked? Is Radmann even reading the game?

"too awful to actually be scum" isn't a thing in my (offsite) experience.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Yeah ... there is

literally nothing

that scum won't or haven't done at some point or another. But if Radmann is the last scum ... he apparently doesn't enjoy playing scum. At all. Because that's like negative effort written all over that slot's play.

True enough, on the other hand he (like you), replaced into a slot that if scum, is pretty well boned. Lack of effort could be expected when you've got nothing invested in a game and you're almost certainly going to lose.

The question you missed is still standing and should be answered by everyone experienced enough to have seen it: LQ began the game by pretending to be an absolutely dyed in the wool first time ever new mafia player with no idea whatsoever of the concepts and terminology of the game. And then proceeded to slip all over himself revealing much greater experiential knowledge in his posts. It was perhaps the single most obvious thing to me on the read I did when I replaced in, and if he wasn't already dead I would be hard pushing for him to be lynched for it.

Like ... not a single person even appears to have noticed. Gigantic contradiction about something there's no

town

reason to lie about. I could see a newbie trying to pretend he has more experience than he does, but there's no town value at all to trying to pretend to have no experience. That's a scum play every time. Granted, LQ's posts were a bit of a chore to read through ... but I remain fairly shocked that nobody appears to have noticed that, and I'm asking why.

And yes, it matters. He's dead, but someone with experience should have noticed. You wanted to know why my suspicion went to the more experienced players, and that was the primary reason. I maybe was too subtle in connecting those dots.

Personally, I didn't mention it because that sort of behavior is also consistent with someone that's learning as they go.

Also, after the fact, clearly it's not terribly alignment indicative because they're objectively only one scum left, and there's more than one player experienced enough to fail to take note when by your argument they should have, and they can't all be scum.

In addition, it's a BoP argument, so I don't give it much weight.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

In other words, in order for this to be a valid scumtell, you'd have to ignore the fact that *the entire town did it too*. How can that possibly be alignment indicative on three specific players when only one of them can possibly be scum?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I find your suggestion that we run up everyone else's town reads to L-2 to get them to engage slightly hilarious considering you've yet to cast a damn vote.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I find your suggestion that we run up everyone else's town reads to L-2 to get them to engage slightly hilarious considering you've yet to cast a damn vote.

I am not vote happy. I vote when I feel a vote is warranted. What use a vote on notscience right now? She's not paying attention to the game. Let's see if my lone vote will summon her and get her to respond to me, shall we?

The use of a vote is to see you take a firm stance on something so that, in the event that your slot actually is scum, you can't easily weasel out of it.

None of the scum reads you have expressed so far are likely to get any traction, and if you're not going to push them, and no one seems interested in following them, that ought to be telling you something.

I do appreciate you putting down a vote, though.

I'm always confused why people sign up for mafia games and then don't play them.

I would imagine that it has something to do with people having varying amounts of free time and very different ideas of what "play mafia games" means to them.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

So what you're saying is that everyone else in the game, except me, is free to play when they have the free time; however, I was obligated to spend several hours or else, by your ultimatum.

Interesting double standard.

If that was your takeaway, your reading comprehension needs work.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Bullshit, Drixx. My position was and is "You're here, do something useful to the game" - because what you were doing, wasn't. Comparing that to people who aren't here and aren't posting is utter crap.

This back and forth isn't useful, and I said as such earlier today and said I'll not take part in it anymore. Let's not start this back up again. Why you apparently feel the need to keep stirring it is beyond me.

Pedit:

Please read that last post in the least harsh tone you can imagine. I'm not trying to start a big fight here ... just point out that you tunneled onto me hard and pressed me to spend a lot of time on this game... and you're giving others a free pass. It is a double standard, and it doesn't make rational sense.

Please point out where I said you needed to spend a lot of time on the game. I said you needed to do useful things to help progress the game state. Useful doesn't imply time consuming.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I have no further interest in lynching Drixx today, nor continuing what is increasingly appearing to be TvT violence.

Shall we bury the hatchet, Drixx?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I've been on it for awhile.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

That's an extremely shallow analysis of both your slot and Drixx's.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Notscience is a bad vote. He was the second on the LQ wagon. If he were scum, he could have done anything instead of staying there.
Again, I'm not saying that the remaining scum is amongst those who were away from the LQ wagon, but

it's much more likely

and I've already explained, why.

Agree completely. If the game doesn't end today, depending on what information we get from flips, I may be willing to look closer at the players on the LQ wagon, but not today - not unless someone brings a strong case.

I will say that notscience's ISO does give me reason for pause, however, in games I have read, I have misread him before so I would need something more to want to lynch the slot.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

The fact of the matter is that *every* tool at our disposal is flawed in one way or another.

At various times, I've heard the following statements/debates:

* VCA is useless. / No it isn't.
* NKA is useless. / No it isn't.
* Pre-flip associatives are useless. / No they aren't.
* Meta is useless. / No it isn't.
* ...ad nauseum.

We use the evidence we have, using the tools that we have, the best way we know how, and we make imperfect decisions using imperfic data. Such is the nature of partial information games.

Personally, I was prepared to vote the Radmann9 slot before the NK even occurred, for different reasons. Now, perhaps there's some confirmation bias happening here, such is the nature of things at times.

The fact of the matter remains: I see no good case for Radmann9 being town, I see things that are consistent with him being scum, and I don't want the slot in the game at MYLO/LYLO (I think it unlikely that town!Radmann9 would be nightkilled - I sure as hell wouldn't). In short, that means, that barring a substantial change in gamestate, I want to see that slot lynched today or tomorrow. Why should be fairly obvious, but feel free to ask if you don't grok what I'm saying.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Please re-read #646, Aneninen, and tell me that you didn't just give a bunch of rational and psychological reasons for your sort.

You aren't actually using VCA at all.

I don't believe either of us claimed to be using VCA. What Aneninen just posted is virtually the same thing that was said right after the day opened. Anyways, I don't want to belabor that point or get off onto an unproductive tangent on theory.



In addition to what Aneninen has to say, I find his thought process to be substantially similar to my own, ergo I will not lynch him today.

I don't like the notscience votes. Whether notscience is town or not is a question for another day. I don't see that wagon going anywhere.

I say we lynch Radmann9 today. We'll have more information tomorrow and will hopefully have some better data to sort.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@JTC

I don't think it does applies equally to either Bulbazoor or Drixx. Anen says this isn't Drixx's scum game, and as she can't be protecting him as a partner, I can only assume that assessment is honest, or scum!Anen wishes to keep Drixx around. I don't think the latter is the case.

I'm less clear on Bulbazoor, but I see what seems to be town-motivated confusion and frustration. I wish he were a bit more active, but I'm not interested in lynching him today unless it's a compromise lynch.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Bulba - FWIW readlists can be faked. I would suggest that you look at the thought process behind readlists to see if there's original thought, town motivation behind the reads, whether the relative strengths of the reads make sense given the reasons given for them, as well as the progression of reads from one readlist to another.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

While I really don't want to segue into a theory discussion (as that's not going to be a distraction to the game at large), I agree in large part to what Drixx has to say above. The only quibbles I have with it are nuanced, and can wait until the game is over. The takeaway advice "never give up" is sound advice regardless of alignment.

I played in an offsite game where as a lone SK, with some skill and a fair amount of of luck, eliminated 14 players through lynch and NK despite having a cop guilty on me on the first night (open setup, there were four cops of varying sanity, and I was the fourth to claim cop). This isn't a brag, I claim no great skill. Improbable things happen. Never give up.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Bulba

Do you have an idea where you want your vote to be? We're approaching a point where we we need to think about consolidating wagons.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Well, at the moment, your vote is on no one.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Should it concern me that you unvoted only a couple of hours ago?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@Ane 646- CD did come in and try to start a counterwagon iirc, so that point isnt exactly valid for him.

I don't think that's an accurate summary of what happened. What I did was suggest that there were players who needed some pressure. My comment was simply surprise that no one was pressuring the delzdirs/Zentheperpetrator slot. I couldn't understand why everyone was letting that slot fly under the radar.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

We simply don't have time to start another wagon in 5 hours or so.

We have a 48 hour extension.

While yes you do change your tune, it dosnt mean you wrent feeling out the possibility of another wagon

You understand that was simply a statement of fact? One would think if I was trying to start another wagon, I would have voted somewhere other than the current favorite wagon, yes?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Should it concern me that you unvoted only a couple of hours ago?

Yes, yes it should. If our goal with this lynch a potential mafia while at the same time getting rid of an unknown/wild card, I'd prefer lynching Bulba over Rad.

That was largely a rhetorical question. It does concern me that he unvoted and apparently forgot that he did so. I prefer a radmann lynch, but if Bulbazoor becomes a contender for an alternate lynch, I will consider voting him.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I find that concerning as well. The thing is, I can't discern if it's scum shifting where the winds blow, vs town that's confused etc. Bulba isn't my primary lynch target because of that.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I find that concerning as well. The thing is, I can't discern if it's scum shifting where the winds blow, vs town that's confused etc. Bulba isn't my primary lynch target because of that.

Although our main goal is to lynch mafia, isn't this bad/dangerous either way. If I were to be at what I assume will be final 4 (unless there is a save/no lynch/no night action), I would rather have a potentially town radmann than a potentially confused town Bulba.

It's debatable. I'd rather have strong players at LYLO/MYLO. Ultimately, I'd prefer players who are at least posting enough so that I can get a read, ergo I prefer to keep Bulbazoor over Radmann9 (I also see some small reasons to lean town on Bulba that are lacking from Radmann).

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Thanks for getting radman.
VOTE: radmann
My main lynch target. My jucter scumread has gone away.

while we're all talking about radmann and while I do think he is pretty scummy, I think Bulbazoor is always at a very opportunistic position on both the drixx and the radmann wagons

While I find your assessment reasonable, I personallly vacillate between opportunism and confusion on that slot. Push comes to shove, I'll vote Bulba, but I would prefer Radmann.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@DoctorPepper - would you mind expanding on your read on Radmann?

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

@notscience - I think we'd all like to see you take a definitive stand.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

It's simply that the people on the wagon don't want to be in the suspect pool.

Consider the implications of what you're saying here, Drixx, and ask yourself if you really believe that to be true - because from my point of view, that statement is both patently false and ludicrous.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I don't agree with you. I also don't agree that LQ was so obviously scum. You had the benefit of having the flip when you did you read through
We didn't. I read through under nearly the same conditions (minus the flip), and I would not say it was obvious. I was a good lynch, yes, but not obvious

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

So can someone explain to me what about drixx has changed their mind about the slot?

I'm not certain my mind has changed. I unvoted and backed off because I felt like my objectivity may have been compromised, and the level of heat between he and I was unproductive and a distraction to everyone else. I'm not ruling out the possibility that I'd vote for him some time in the future.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

That's L-1 if I'm not mistaken.

I strongly dislike the above post. It reads as "notscience is scummy as fuck, but I'll vote Bulbazoor instead because anyone but me".

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Why would that be any more scummy than when notscience did it? Notscience is automatically town because NS sided with the lynch against the obvscum of LQ?

Largely because your votes on Drixx and notscience also looked a bit opportunistic. Notscience was placing his first vote of the day.

No, notscience is not automatically town. No, LQ was not obvscum, except through confirmation bias after the flip. I wish people would stop exaggerating both instances

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'm willing to compromise on Bulbazoor today if that's what it takes to ensure we lynch today. I am not willing to hammer until it's clear that there's no new issues to discuss.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

FFS, Bulba, no one has asked you to claim.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I am at L-1 tho. I have to claim..

No you don't. You claim when there is threat of a hammer - and there isn't. In the future, please wait for intent to be declared. Outing VTs isnt as bad as outing a PR but it's still bad.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

That's L-1 if I'm not mistaken.

I strongly dislike the above post. It reads as "notscience is scummy as fuck, but I'll vote Bulbazoor instead because anyone but me".

Also, survivalism isn't necessarily a scumtell.

No, not necessarily, like anything else it's contextual.. It is one more data point to evaluate, however.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Now is probably a good time for Bulbazoor to post thoughts, and anyone who has cold feet about the wagon to speak up.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

In case it's not abundantly clear, the above is intent to hammer.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

The only time I'm going to advocate a NL prior to MYLO is when town is hopelessly deadlocked. Not today. Flips provide useful information.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

That is, might advocate a NL.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Yeah we aren't no lynching today.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Bulbazoor

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Booyah.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Bulba - you replaced into a nearly unwinnable situation. I don't envy that slot at all. gg to all.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

slot = spot

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Was that all?
I thought it was Radmann, although after we'd lynched him I would have lynched for Bulbazoor.
Day1 votes narrowed the pool very much, which made it very hard for the scum.

I would have as well, barrring information from flips or PR results.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

VOTE: Radmann9

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Incidentally, if you're ever in the spot Bulbazoor was in as town, don't ever post a parting post that looks like a scum claim.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Let's lynch Radmann and finish this game, shall we?

Lets do, but before we do that make sure any PRs have an opportunity to report any incriminating results on the off chance that remaining scum isn't Radmann.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Okay. Let's wait.

I bet you don't have any results clearing Radmann, do you?

My vote says no.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I like my vote, and I don't see any claim coming from radmann that will change that.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Hammer, please.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

LOL, if Aneninen hadn't been on the ball with the jailing, that would have been my shortest game ever.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

Thanks Aero and equinox for running the game.

Yeah, Radmann9 did fine especially considering the impossible situation he replaced into.

I regret going after Drixx as aggressively as I did. I had some personal things going on that affected my objectivity and I'm going to strive to be more aware of that in the future and not take it out on people in-game.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

In all honesty, neither side of that spat were exactly in the clear.

A lot of why I play a more laid back game is to try and avoid things like that happening.

Well, your style certainly has merit in that regard.

Games should be fun, and personally, I pushed myself into the "no longer fun" zone, and I'd like to not do that again in the future. (Likewise, I can imagine that it could make things not fun for others involved, and I'd also like to avoid that.)

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

See. My reads were right.

Yep.

For what it's worth, I preferred to lynch radmann that day. It was clear that the votes weren't there, though - and by that point it was also clear that it was unlikely new information / arguments were forthcoming, so it made little sense to me to stretch the day out any longer.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I regret going after Drixx as aggressively as I did. I had some personal things going on that affected my objectivity and I'm going to strive to be more aware of that in the future and not take it out on people in-game.

I think that was much worse than it needed to be mostly because I was really confused by how hard you came after me. I put a ton of work in on replace in just to avoid you pushing a lynch on me ... and I had no idea what on earth you were referring to because I am active in every game I play. I don't lurk my way through games, no matter what role or alignment I get assigned. I was just confused and what you were saying felt really hostile so I bristled a bit and responded the way I felt like I was being attacked.

Yeah, in retrospect, it's clear to me that we *really* weren't understanding each other. Ultimately, I think the "why" of it is relatively unimportant and I don't wish to reignite bad feelings - but I am taking away from this a valuable lesson, and it should have not happened. I do very much appreciate your willingness to not hold a grudge.

[Cthulhu Dreaming]

I'd like to echo Aneninen's comments on the scum team's play as well. When scum is lynched day one, the scum team is in an extremely difficult situation. When the second scum is also jailed/copped/tracked night one (either through luck or good reads), the situation becomes nearly impossible, and replacing into that spot is doubly so.