Mini 1699 - #swag wars: THE empire strikes back (swaggedout)

[Wickedestjr]

Thinking...

[Wickedestjr]

I wanted to acknowledge this first:

ffrey has only gotten worse for me over time. She seemingly started off very strong, but her indecisiveness and almost, like, lack of energy lately is souring me on her a bit.
...
Her Nacho vote seemed too shady, and when Nacho/you called her out, she seemed to shirk, backtrack and claim she was just trying something different. I just don't really get what her angle is.
...
Then her whole, "I don't want to pressure people that just replaced in out of principle" stance was weird. Way too forced sounding. Either you think the slot is scummy or you don't. She should have the courage to fall one way or the other. If she disagrees with me, Nacho or anyone else about Oversoul, then she should say that.

First, I haven't really noticed a decline in effort/activity from ffery over time. I could be wrong, but I get the impression that this 'change' is actually other players becoming more active rather than her becoming less. E.g. notscience/implosion/Vinkah were all on the back burner early on, but are now noticeably more active slots. I can say this with reasonable confidence, because I think I've been given the same mis-treatment. I do share your concern with regard to her current indecisiveness though.

I completely agree with you about the Nacho vote. Aside from the possible connection to Nacho/Vinkah, that's the single most bothersome thing that I have seen from her this game. I'm

still

trying to wrap my head around it.

This third point seems kinda harsh. I don't think ffery would lie about a principle like this.

Wicked, while your here, what do you think of 2291? Am I being too harsh?

That post is null for me. It makes a lot of sense as a weak distancing attempt. But it also makes sense as a townie trying to get info from Oversoul. Oversoul exuded incorrect confidence that he didn't have to claim because nobody would ever hammer him. And I was happy that ffery put him in his place - even though it makes sense as scum v scum too.


TL;DR - ffery is suspect to me for her interactions with Nacho/Vinkah, for her weird Nacho vote, and slightly because of indecisiveness, but those are the only issues I have right now.

[Wickedestjr]

Reading more of this page, I guess it would have been stronger if she had said "Intent to hammer" rather than "Don't think I won't", but that's a subtle difference. And I'm not yet ready for a hammer either. I still think Oversoul is scum, but I want to see what happens in a few hours.

[Wickedestjr]

As a musing aside, I'd kinda like my own flip out there so people can evaluate the read-changes today and how well supported they were.

If you're town, then

you

already know that you'd flip town. So what do you think?

[Wickedestjr]

EBWOP: ...because that kinda sounds like you're taking something from Anen and not science's playbook.

I g2g now, will try to get back to this tonight, but I have several other things to take care of.

[Wickedestjr]

Reading through

Why? I could understand this if you had issue with one player's arguments in particular. But it's not clear that you do, so this assumption doesn't make much sense to me. I'm still actually town reading both of them.

It seems like a powerplay. I don't think a townsperson, knowing that tomorrow is likely MyLo would willingly go into a 1v1 to try and get a single scum. The scum get two free nightkills essentially. More if on the odd chance that scum has a bookie (which is what was floating around my mind about Implosion).

This doesn't make sense / answer my question. You said "one of them is scum", thus the implication is that "one of them is town" too.

But if you don't think a townsperson would willingly go into a 1v1, does that mean you think it's scum v scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

[Wickedestjr]

If you're town here, how would you have played it differently as scum?

given that RC's role is capable of being cleared, there is no universe where I would have walked in here and saved him when he would certainly have been lynched otherwise.

if I have the chance to eliminate a potential clear from the game, I take it, full stop - you could make the argument the alternative lynch might have been a significantly larger threat, but Boon? BOON?!?!

Ok, this seems like a fair point. What do you think of this notscience?

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: Nacho

(L-2)

Why not claim backup, idk, during the mass claim?

[Wickedestjr]

Ah never mind, I see the explanation. Pretend that question was rhetorical.

Keep reading.

I kept reading and, unless I was skimming you v pie too much, I didn't see an answer...

[Wickedestjr]

/mass claim over

ah, you naive fool...

Yep silly me for thinking mass claim could actually mean something

Not really buying nacho's claim especially insofar as

it can easily be a scum role

. But we'll see what he has to say.

Bolded is a great point.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay I understand

[Wickedestjr]

I'm not ignoring your defense Nacho. I want to respond in a couple hours.

[Wickedestjr]

When Boon became town and implosion claimed vig, my reads were past shot to shit; the only person who really seemed to have a feasible chance of being scum anymore was Vinkah, but that push in and of itself frustrated me because I knew it was a lynch that was exactly like the Boonskies lynch: no one really had a case beyond "lurking, probably not town", and while this is actually a perfectly fine reason to lynch on some occasions, it frustrated me that we kept compromising on lynches for that reason or similar reasons and I knew that Vinkah!town would leave us right back where we started and would probably be fatal for the game state the next day. I saw S-S and Ffery expressing discomfort with RC, so that's where I started.

Ok well I had gotten the impression RC was one of your strongest town reads. Why would you choose to start with RC (because others expressed concern) rather than go for a weaker town read like SS, pie or myself even? Or am I misreading the strength?

When I started reading RC through a lens of "how does this move make sense as scum from RC?" instead of "is this

really

RC's scumgame?", him being scum made more sense.

This whole post doesn't really answer my question though...

Ok, I understand why you wanted to look at him through a new lens (even if I think it would have made more logical sense for you to pursue someone else first). What I don't understand is how you determined this new lens was better than the old lens. You originally were accepting of RC as directionless town that was just performing under his meta - that's what you saw at first.

So why is "RC not up to snuff as town" suddenly greater than "RC performing under his meta if scum". Both concepts share the theme of RC not playing his best, so I'm actually not seeing the difference.

I'm not getting this, Nacho. And writing this post is actually making me more confused about what we're discussing.

[Wickedestjr]

Nacho, looking back at your vote for RC reminds me of a strange order that occurred...

Vote: RedCoyote

This is where I'd rather go.

For the record, the initial vote is based on feeling and no reason beyond that. I am reading through him now and reasons are soon to come if I still feel good about it, but reasons that I come up with are not reasons I had in mind when I made the vote.

First read through of RC brings out the problem of me not liking the relative ease of his votes: RC as town usually picks a fight with someone loud and town (or, at the very least, finds problems in their play), but this game he hasn't really done that at all except maybe with the vote on SS but then he ended up dropping that decently quickly.

His hammer on Anen was a slight ping because he bothered setting it up at all; I think that was a call-back to classic RC-scum worrying about being image conscious with a decently iffy move.

Can you explain this sequence in conjunction with this:

When I started reading RC through a lens of "how does this move make sense as scum from RC?" instead of "is this

really

RC's scumgame?", him being scum made more sense.

?


The {1536, 1538, 1544} group implies that you voted him and then read through his posts, unless I'm reading it wrong. But 2464 doesn't seem to acknowledge that you voted him before reading through with the 'new lens' that you talked about.

[Wickedestjr]

Picking up on who he's pushing instead of focusing on the reasons he is pushing them is a subtlety to me. Is this an unreasonable viewpoint to have? Why?

Uh... yeah I think the decision of who to push is a pretty crucial thing. I'm not sure how to explain this because it seems pretty trivial. The reasoning is probably easier to dissect and interpret than the target choice, sure. But I also think that scum put a lot of thought into picking who they will attack - e.g. what's safe, what's best for them and their partners, etc.

I've literally caught scum before with a case that mostly revolved around voting behavior.

I mean obviously it isn't

that

subtle, or you wouldn't be referring to it now.

This argument in particular is something that I'd bring out when I'm saying I don't think you understand me.

Why is the argument being subtle/not subtle significant?

What I was trying to say was that picking up on RC being scum required a different mindset and a different approach. I didn't think that his votes really looked scummy, I didn't really think that his cases were bad or uncharacteristic, and I didn't think that most of the moves he made that trended more on the anti-town side (most notably the hammer, don't think there were other things but there might have been) were worth the heat that he got and was obviously coming.

Whether this was subtle, or not subtle is not something that is important to me. I don't understand why it's important to you. I understand that you look for contradictions because they are a good place to start but I don't understand why you think me as town knows the difference between subtle and not subtle but me as scum doesn't or why you think there is any advantage as scum in pushing otherwise.

It's significant, because I think you're lying about rereading RC and changing your mind. I don't believe your RC read switch is natural. You claim that you noticed things on a reread that you didn't see originally, but I don't think said things were subtle.

"Subtle" for the purpose of our conversation means "obscure enough for you to miss on your initial read through".

I find it especially hard to understand how you weren't paying attention to who RC was pushing.

[Wickedestjr]

Your problem with RC is that he's trying to soften the blow of a mislynch by saying that he's not that sure about it and by saying that a town flip wouldn't be that bad, which are conventional scumtells based on the theory that scum are less confident pushing mislynches than town because theyknow what they are doing is wrong.

My problem with the hammer was that he even gave reasons he was hammering at all; there was no need for him to explain himself to anyone, so explaining his mindset to everyone else (even if it was 100% how he would approach the situation as town) seemed like it had no other purpose other than damage control, which I don't think was your point but it suddenly dawns on me that I'm just making that assumption and am probably a huge ass in doing so, so sorry for that.

You're right. It did feel like he was softening the blow of a mis-lynch... because he was conscious of how the hammer would be perceived. You're not an ass, but I do think that we are making the same point here.

[Wickedestjr]

Why is Oversoul town?

[Wickedestjr]

He looks more like town-oversoul instead of scum-oversoul.

Scum oversoul just feels a lot less engaged and is hyperlurky.

I think this reasoning is weak.

[Wickedestjr]

-You've only been in the game for four days.
-I'm sure it's a tell that you're aware of. (You're probably also aware of how strange it would look if you made the commitment of joining an 80 page game and then lurked)
-You replaced into a slot that was already getting lots of attention.

Do you argue and say that you would be lurking right now if you were scum?

[Wickedestjr]

1) Yes he's been here 4 days but he's done a ton in the 4 days he's been here versus in WTP where it was just endless promises to catchup or replace out. He had some posts earlier but they were very underwhelming compared to here.

2) Just because someone's aware of a tell doesn't mean they are able to manipulate it. Ask Nacho/ffery how long it took me after joining the site to get over my lurkerscum tell.

3) The slot being under a lot of attention is just as likely to cause scum to clam up and do nothing. He could have shut up, ate a lynch and we would have been sitting in the mist. He didn't.

1) Aside from his big catchup post (which wasn't particularly townish and is kinda something any replacement has to do at some point) and his "Not VT" thing (which didn't inspire my confidence especially considering the "I've just obvtown'd this slot" line), I can't remember anything that he's done.

2) Well I have no idea how that's a hard thing to manipulate. Seems like all you'd have to do is post more.

3) This seems ridiculous. Still curious what Oversoul has to say about all this.

[Wickedestjr]

so the first thing I want to address re: Oversoul is the way he claimed not-VT and then retracted it. there's an obvious question here that I think everyone is missing: given the situation he was in, why the fuck does scum-Oversoul bother retracting the PR claim at all? I think if he was scum here, he'd either go balls-deep and continue with the PR claim or retract it immediately, not fucking both. in fact, I think continuing with the PR claim would have been a *lot* more convenient for scum-him here; it'd at the very least give him a greater chance at getting out of the lynch (and, if uncontested, could potentially allow him to survive to endgame).

retracting it, on the other hand, essentially doesn't do anything besides make him look bad. seriously. what the fuck does scum-Oversoul have to gain by retracting it in the way he did? somebody (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, RC) please tell me because it doesn't make any sense and I still haven't seen a compelling reason for it anywhere.

Maybe because he wanted to look townish-

There is a difference between "listening to the town's opinions" and "listening to oversoul's opinions" that you don't seem to see
you also seem to be ignoring any other points i make
so.

Thoughts on the fact that a dead tammy can't confirm your role?

At any rate, I've just obvtown'd this slot

He wanted to gain some town credit, but didn't actually have the power role to back it up.

If he was town, why would he gambit to attract the night kill when
-he was already under so much suspicion
-there were already other claimed power roles
-he even said that his power role wasn't strong
?

You think he actually thought he could get night killed instead of someone like Tammy who's almost certainly town? No. That's the hardest aspect of this for me to believe is that Oversoul, as town, could actually think to himself "hmm I need to protect other power roles, this is the job for me, this could actually work". It's an awful gambit if he's town. I think he's scum trying to do something that there's "no way that scum would do" (absolutely no wifom there) in an effort to get rid of the wagon'd slot he replaced into. And a power role claim is risky for him.

I also don't make anything of him asking Tammy to rolecop him when he was in reality just a VT, for the obvious reason that he should theoretically just be able to kill Tammy anyway if he is scum here. I also think that due to him/Tammy apparently having a lot of experience with each other, he thought Tammy would see a potential VT result on him and pick up on what he was trying to do (that is, she would see him as clearly town for it as opposed to questioning why he lied). so the fact that he did that doesn't bug me. I also don't really agree that it was as misleading as a lot of people in this game seem to think it is - I had thought of the possibility that he was just VT fake claiming when it first came up (see: the first line of my setup spec post), and it appears some others had done the same.

By that same logic, he should realize, if he's town, that Tammy has a high chance of dying tonight. This point also doesn't even matter because he's not a town power role!

outside of the claim, I thought the sheer level of conviction he had in response to his wagon read town. 2288 is one post in particular that makes me think this; I have no idea how people can read posts like this and think it comes from a scum player.

There is nothing about that post that makes me think he's town.

[Wickedestjr]

What benefit is there for Nacho to withhold a claim that could be used to bolster his town cred? There's a lot of town benefit in doing that (he rolls the dice that he doesn't get pressure, Tammy dies, he gets to start catching some reports). As scum, it only serves to put a target on his back (see: Wicked's reaction). I'm not saying this because I think Nacho is necessarily town, but I could see his rationale a hell of a lot better (PR faking as VT) than I could for Oversoul (VT faking as not VT).

If he's town, it's sooo unlikely that he'd actually get to put his role to use though. He would not only have to survive today's lynch, but also tomorrow's lynch, before he could even investigate someone. I'm not seeing the value in this play...

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

[Wickedestjr]

Not what I would've done, sure, but I also wouldn't have done what Oversoul did.

Agreed.

I still think they could both be scum.

[Wickedestjr]

When you're ready...

{Oversoul, Wickedestjr, RedCoyote, Tammy, fferyllt, notscience, implosion, pieguyn}

Nacho, who are your gun-to-head top three for mafia?

[Wickedestjr]

Nacho, I don't understand 2620-1, after reading several times. Are you town reading pie for the meltdown or not?

[Wickedestjr]

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

Why did you unvote here?

Throughout the course of this day, you have been my top suspect. While Oversoul has been a close second, he has never surpassed you in suspiciousness. I only voted for Oversoul because he was a. ignoring a question that I had asked him (which frustrates me and gives me no other option) and b. was refusing to claim (same rationale). He claimed and eventually answered my question, so I un-voted with the intention of moving my vote back to you.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't understand why I have to follow my set reads in order, though.

That's what I do when I'm confused (like I have been for most of this game).

Maybe that's why I don't fully understand your approach. Can you honestly tell me that, as confused town, you refer to what your other townreads think?

[Wickedestjr]

implosion, why does the "why would they do this as scum" card come into play for Nacho's backup role cop claim, but not for pieguyn's change in read on notscience?

I think they're both savvy enough to realize the strangeness/surprising nature of their actions.

[Wickedestjr]

He wanted to gain some town credit, but didn't actually have the power role to back it up.

[1.

if he was playing for towncred, there are a fuckton of more reliable ways he could have went about it.

]

[2.

it isn't difficult at all to adequately fake a catchup - as in, a standard "read the thread and give reads on everyone" catchup

]

-

[3.

and even if he did decide to step in here and fakeclaim a PR, it would have been a lot more beneficial to scum-him here if he had just stuck with the PR claim instead of retracting it for as far as I can tell no reason

]

(

[4.

and, no, trying to convince people he's "too scummy to be scum" is not a compelling reason, in no small part explicitly to how unreliable of a strategy it would be

]

). I still don't think, outside of that reason, anyone else has given any reason he would have bothered retracting the PR claim as scum or acknowledged the point that it would have been fairly obvious retracting it in the way he did would have done nothing to actually save him here.

1. Like what?
2. If it's not difficult to fake a catchup, then how would a regular catchup post be the optimal strategy for removing a bandwagon or getting town credit? (especially in a player list like this)
3. I don't think so. The presence of another power role is hard to believe (it's one of the reasons why I'm voting Nacho) and I'm pretty sure Oversoul realizes that. If he claimed power role, it would very much look like he was just trying to save himself from the bandwagon he's got. But the VT, not VT, VT charade is confusing/different, and it has earned him town credit because it's a strange thing for him to do as scum! e.g. He is being townread by you right now and doesn't seem to have suffered in any way from it (anyone scum reading him right now already did iirc).
4. But that seems to be basically what you're doing for him...

[Wickedestjr]

implosion, why does the "why would they do this as scum" card come into play for Nacho's backup role cop claim, but not for pieguyn's change in read on notscience?

I don't see the comparison here. pie's change in read on notscience has a very clear motivation if she's scum beyond just "doing it to get wifom towncred."

I feel the exact opposite. Nacho's claim has very clear motivation imo. Not seeing what pie's motivation for changing her mind is -

iirc

, she started the argument with notscience.

[Wickedestjr]

I just returned to school today, so I'll probably become less active soon too, but I'm still prioritizing mafia over other hobbies.

implosion, what did you think of not science's read change? While it wasn't as abrupt as pie's, it was also pretty radical.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't like this post:

I'm not really sure what my scumgame would look like after the year-ish long hiatus I took. I was gonna say I don't think it would look like this but aspects of it probably would, like the focusing on core townreads/waffling on others part, which is mostly because I've trained myself to do that as scum because I always wind up doing it as town. But I think my thought processes right now are not things that I would be able to fake here as scum.

[Wickedestjr]

And that happens to be the one concern I've never been able to shake about wicked.

There was a period of time during day 2 where I was kinda lost and trying to find a direction that I liked. But other than that, I think I've been pretty open about what my reads are.

[Wickedestjr]

I just returned to school today, so I'll probably become less active soon too, but I'm still prioritizing mafia over other hobbies.

Good for you!

Thanks!

[Wickedestjr]

The {1536, 1538, 1544} group implies that you voted him and then read through his posts, unless I'm reading it wrong. But 2464 doesn't seem to acknowledge that you voted him before reading through with the 'new lens' that you talked about.

I don't know if I've addressed this point or not, but what?
The bottom stuff wrt RC has nothing to do with me voting him.

So... you

did

vote him before reading through his posts...

I don't understand how I'm misinterpreting.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

I mean I know we talked about the whole RC switch, but is that it?

Pretty much + the lack of anything recent that sticks out as townish. Now I also don't like your backup role cop claim.

I mean, consider this from my perspective;
-everyone here is experienced, there aren't going to be a lot of mistakes being made
-you guys all know each other pretty well - but I haven't played with any of you recently and can't say that I've played more than a few times with anybody, there are a lot of strangers here
-my scum hunting style is very POEish and relies much more heavily on my ability to identify townies, that's pretty hard when everybody looks townish, unfortunately I'm not very good at catching scum tells

So yeah, I don't have a strong case against you for being scum. I just think your RC read change is hard to believe.

[Wickedestjr]

I don't understand why I have to follow my set reads in order, though.

That's what I do when I'm confused (like I have been for most of this game).

Maybe that's why I don't fully understand your approach. Can you honestly tell me that, as confused town, you refer to what your other townreads think?

Yes?

Then I guess it makes sense that you chose to reread RC first. Not sure your read-change is legitimate though.

[Wickedestjr]

Like what is your #1 scumteam and why?
Wicked, same to you.

I've already said.

My top three suspects are probably you, Oversoul, implosion. But my best guess for scum team is still you, Oversoul, ffery.

[Wickedestjr]

More tomorrow

[Wickedestjr]

I've done most of the catching up I need to do today. The only real work I have left to do is look into Wicked some more, but something that seems weird to me is that Wicked actually let Oversoul get away with the VT-NotVT-VT claiming business and didn't drive him into the ground after that; he seems like the type who would flip the fuck out about something like that, but again, might be being judgmental again.

This isn't true. I made at least one big post explaining why I have issue with the lie. I'm not voting him, because I still thought that you were more likely to be scum.

I was frustrated, but I see no benefit to "flipping the f out" - especially when he hasn't even been around till recently.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm actually starting to like ffery as town again...

[Wickedestjr]

You spent the majority of this day saying I am town. What changed? How does your scum team change when I flip town?

I first thought the way you reacted to your wagon looked town as fuck. then I thought about it more and figured it'd probably be a lot easier to fake the majority of it if you did most of it from a "going down in flames" POV as opposed to a "get the wagon off me" POV.

Really? You just realized this now?

I'm pretty sure I made this point several days ago.

Are people even reading my posts?

[Wickedestjr]

Unvote. Vote: Oversoul

(L-1 I believe)

The recent pages are making me think that he's more likely to be scum than Nacho. In particular, I really like Tammy's posts about him on the last few pages. Oversoul's explanations don't really make sense. I can't believe him doubting Tammy right now. But my biggest problem is this: he recently said that he was trying to determine Tammy's alignment by attracting the investigation, but this doesn't work if Tammy-scum suspects that Oversoul is a VT. I have no idea what their experience with each other is like, but I do get the impression that Oversoul thought Tammy might figure it out. So the lie still seems pointless to me.

I still think Nacho is scum, but I've come to realize that about 20-30% of that scum read is based on a legitimate play style difference that I simply can't comprehend (specifically his follow town reads strategy).

I'll be honest, I'm starting to get bored with this day/game. That has nothing to do with my Oversoul vote (I would have gladly kept my vote Nacho for another day or two). But I do feel like I'm starting to mentally detach from this game, you guys are probably noticing it, and that is why. I can explain this feeling if anyone cares/wants to know.

[Wickedestjr]

Yeah I guess that's (mostly) why I've started getting bored.

Eh... I don't know if pie would play this way if she was scum with Oversoul.

[Wickedestjr]

I do think her change wrt Oversoul is kinda weird though. Looking forward to her explanation

[Wickedestjr]

@anyone that is familiar with pie's meta- is it common for her to change her mind a lot as town? would about as scum?

[Wickedestjr]

Won't be able to post here until tomorrow night. I have some thinking to do.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm pretty sure no-lynch is optimal right now. So I'm probably voting for that as soon as implosion is ready.

Still going to post my thoughts anyway though.

[Wickedestjr]

This is nonsense;

I think Wicked's play D3 makes a hell of a lot of sense as scum distancing.

1.

he maintained both Oversoul and Nacho as top scum reads throughout the entire day without really committing to either.

2.

the scum motivation there would be that he doesn't want to draw attention onto himself if Nacho does get lynched, but wants to leave himself the option to vote on the counterwagon if necessary.

3.

as for the push itself, there was a lot of questioning but the only real point was Nacho's RC read flop, which felt a lot weaker than the reasoning for his Oversoul push on a general level (thinking the way Oversoul claimed was indicative of scum and that his reasoning for it didn't hold water).

1. Um no that's not true, try again. You're being ridiculous. Did I "maintain them as my top two for the entire day" or did I "not really commit to either" ? You can't argue both in the same sentence.

That's a contradiction.

I had been pushing Nacho and scum reading Vinkah since day 2. Day 3 was no different, they were my top two scum reads for ALL of day 3 and I almost always had my vote on one of them. I probably focused 75% of my energy on arguing why they were scum yesterday (which isn't bad considering their inactivity). I even made a big post arguing with

your

Oversoul-defense - nice of you to forget. So this "not really committing" point is garbage.

2. This also doesn't make sense. You think I was distancing from Nacho, but you also think I didn't want the attention if he got lynched.

That's a contradiction.

No, if I was bussing Nacho, then I would want it to be at least somewhat noticeable. And again: I was scum reading Vinkah long before he became a wagon, so this opportunism point is also bad.

3. You can't argue that my Nacho-push was weaker than my Oversoul and then criticize my Oversoul push in the same sentence.

That's a contradiction.

See the pattern everyone?

I have several other problems with this sentence from you. a.) I explained why I didn't have much reasoning for my Nacho vote, but it doesn't seem like that explanation really interests you. b.) You are calling my Nacho-reasoning weak, but my vote for him was certainly not the least-justified vote. c.) There's

zero

motivation for me to craft a multi-point case for Nacho-scum when I was already getting lots of support AND when I genuinely didn't have any other points to give AND when I have other things that I like to do in my life.

Seriously, give me a friggin break, this post is awful. Starting to feel like you might be the townread I was wrong about and that I'm

your

final mis-lynch target. You spent the entire game ignoring me and now that Oversoul's gone, it's my turn, huh?

You haven't given a single legitimate reason for disliking my Nacho push. Instead you've just attacked the push without considering my reasoning. You are dead set on scum reading me today. If I had taken any other stance with regard to Nacho (ignoring him completely or defending him against the bandwagon) then you could still easily scum read me for

not

attacking him. But the fact of the matter is that I attacked Nacho so you have to scum read me for "bussing". But really I could have taken any stance wrt Nacho and you'd have found a way to have issue with it I bet. Again, it seems like this is true, because your reasons are awful/forced and you've ignored my town motivation/explanations for everything I've done.

Hmm... on the topic of bad Nacho votes - what would you think if a player pushed the bandwagon and then unvoted for weak reasoning ? Oh hey that was you...

[Wickedestjr]

It might be pie/notscience...

[Wickedestjr]

I'm officially fine with a Wicked lynch.

Why? Please tell me it's not because of pie's last post.

But this is a surprising change considering there are still two living players outside yesterday's town bloc...

[Wickedestjr]

pie/notscience/Nacho actually makes quite a bit of sense right now

(totally the first time I've said

that

this game)

ffery why do

you

want to lynch me?

[Wickedestjr]

Why do you think pie/notscience/nacho make sense?

Pie/notscience - Their interactions from yesterday are bizarre if they're not both scum and I could very well see two experienced friends orchestrating an argument to fool an equally experienced town. Note that their fight started shortly after the day began. A connection between them would also explain why they are both town reading each other now despite previously scum reading each other with certainty. I initially thought it was town v town, because they were both decently strong town reads, but it's becoming clear to me (now that Oversoul/implosion aren't mafia) that at least one of them is scum. So now scum v scum is a very legitimate possibility in my mind. Furthermore, I have trouble seeing scum push a townie as hard as they pushed each other: scum v scum makes more sense than scum v town.

Pie/Nacho - Pie didn't really start pushing Nacho till the middle of yesterday (IIRC), voted Nacho, but ended up unvoting towards the end of the day and changing her read on Oversoul from town to scum. She scum read

me

for leaving myself the option to switch to the Oversoul wagon, but I had been scum reading Vinkah long before he became a wagon, so I think this point is more applicable to her.

notscience/Nacho - I honestly can't remember any of their interactions off the top of my head, which on its own might be a sign that they're scum together. But this is something that I want to look at later.

[Wickedestjr]

ffery, what do you think of 2939, given my response?

[Wickedestjr]

the thing is, after we blew up at each other and he read me as town he immediately doubled down on the Nacho read. that's a town thought process and I highly doubt it was faked.

I don't see how you're concluding it's a town thought process rather than a bus.

he was the first vote on the Nacho wagon with the reasoning that he was "sheeping you". the thing with this is, you weren't even voting Nacho at that point - and when you did, it wasn't a "to lynch" vote, it was a reaction vote. so if he bussed there, he did it entirely unnecessarily.

First of all, he wasn't the first vote on the Nacho wagon. Secondly, this point is weak - not all busses have to be strong/independent/"to lynch" votes. Third, he joined the bandwagon by "sheeping ffery" which gives him the option to leave the bandwagon if he wants to- why are you ignoring that aspect of

his

vote?

[Wickedestjr]

the entire point is that, despite reading both Nacho and Oversoul as scum, you left the door wide open as to which, specifically, you thought was more likely to be scum. this allows you to vote whichever one looks like it's more likely to go through, or move your vote around for strategic reasons (ex: looking like you're open to a Nacho lynch but then voting Oversoul at the end - which is what I think you did here), and so forth. and I think that in this case, there is scum motivation here in that it allowed you to look like you were open to a Nacho lynch, but not actually doing anything to lynch him, which is fairly typical of scum distancing from each other.

This is

soooo

ridiculously untrue/false. Regardless of your alignment, I'm starting to get frustrated with you (and the people that don't see how you're so wrong).

1. I did not leave the door open as to which player I thought was more likely to be scum. I was voting Nacho for almost the entire day, only switched to Oversoul temporarily because he was ignoring my question and refusing to claim (and I switched it back to Nacho as soon as Oversoul did these things). I clearly stated/implied on a few occasions yesterday that Nacho was my top suspect.

How in the world

are you missing that?

2. If I really wanted the ability to switch my vote from Nacho to Oversoul, then listing Nacho as my top suspect wouldn't prevent me from doing that.

3. Doing nothing to lynch him?!? Are you friggin kidding me? I did more than most/all of the other players that voted for him. I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day. That's more than most/all of this town can say.

but no, I don't see anything in your posts D3 that indicates that you explicitly would have preferred a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch (which is what I said in my first point).

you maintained both of them as scum reads. you voted Nacho right at the start of D3, then voted Oversoul because of claimgate and for supposedly ignoring your question. then you voted Nacho again for lying about his claim. then you put Oversoul at L-1 at the end. nowhere did you explicitly take a stance either way, ex. "I'd significantly prefer a Nacho lynch over an Oversoul lynch" or "I'd significantly prefer an Oversoul lynch over a Nacho lynch", or attempt to convince anyone on the Oversoul wagon to join you on the Nacho wagon, or anything along those lines.

so where in here am I supposed to get the impression you weren't intending to leave Oversoul open as a lynch option here?

Signs that Nacho was my top choice;
-I voted him as soon as day 3 started. That's a clear implication that I preferred his lynch over Oversoul. Obviously I wouldn't vote my 2nd strongest suspect right off the bat.
-I returned my vote to Nacho as soon as Oversoul did what I wanted him to do.
-I made it clear that I suspected Oversoul, but avoided joining the wagon even when RC was asking me to;

Spoiler: Quote 1

Wicked, we belong together... why did you leave me for pie???

I think Nacho's slightly more likely to be scum.

-I explicitly state that Nacho's my top suspect here;

Spoiler: Quote 2

Meh. I won't be on when Tammy is here, but she was 100% right about my intentions with my claim.

I am a VT. Was trying to act vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill.

Unvote.

If you wanted to be "vague and boisterous to draw the nightkill", why didn't you claim "not VT" right off the bat?

Why did you unvote here?

Throughout the course of this day, you have been my top suspect. While Oversoul has been a close second, he has never surpassed you in suspiciousness. I only voted for Oversoul because he was a. ignoring a question that I had asked him (which frustrates me and gives me no other option) and b. was refusing to claim (same rationale). He claimed and eventually answered my question, so I un-voted with the intention of moving my vote back to you.

BTW;
-The first time I voted Oversoul yesterday, it was

not

because I wanted to lynch him. It was because I was pressuring him to get answers.
-The second time I voted Oversoul, I had changed my mind, but I gave good reasons for doing so (which you have also ignored) and made the switch shortly before the day ended.

3. You can't argue that my Nacho-push was weaker than my Oversoul and then criticize my Oversoul push in the same sentence. That's a contradiction.

no, it isn't, and you are either misinterpreting or deliberately misrepresenting what I said there. I did not (and never intended to) criticize the reasoning behind your Oversoul push; all I'm saying is that your Oversoul push was significantly stronger than your Nacho push.

I saw this:

as for the push itself, there was a lot of questioning but the only real point was Nacho's RC read flop, which felt a lot weaker than the reasoning for his Oversoul push on a general level (

thinking the way Oversoul claimed was indicative of scum and that his reasoning for it didn't hold water

).

and assumed you were saying that my Oversoul push didn't hold water. Am I wrong?

[Wickedestjr]

Hmm... on the topic of bad Nacho votes - what would you think if a player pushed the bandwagon and then unvoted for weak reasoning ? Oh hey that was you...

did you miss the part where I wanted to wait for Tammy to catch up and give her thoughts on the situation re: Nacho and where Nacho informed me I was misreading a part of why I thought he could be scum?

I didn't miss it. I just think it's weak/hypocritical if you're town, but a nice way to protect your partner if you're bussing.

[Wickedestjr]

the thing with this game is I'm very very very sure that both of {notsci, ffery} are town and I don't see myself reversing either of these reads unless something drastic happens. so, *if* either of {Wicked, RC} are town here, they need to convince me that I'm wrong about one of these reads.

Obviously something I cannot do because I've been town reading them for most of the game. NS is mostly a POE scum read at this point. Pretty sure RC is in the same boat as I am. All I can do is defend the allegations against myself.

I think Wicked is the reason we didn't lynch RC at the end of day 2.

Discuss.

that actually makes a lot of sense.

I'm reading through it again and Wicked had a lot of posts where he kinda sorta token-opposed the RC miller claim, but then he didn't actually vote him until it was too late to do anything about it.

This is awful too. I was initially critical of RC's claim and wanted to lynch him immediately after it, but SS convinced me that the miller claim was weird if RC was scum. SS had the most significant impact on RC's survival that day. You guys are blatantly misreading it.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm officially fine with a Wicked lynch.

Why? Please tell me it's not because of pie's last post.

But this is a surprising change considering there are still two living players outside yesterday's town bloc...

I put all my eggs in that Oversoul basket. I thought I made that clear...

I'm aware of that. That has nothing to do with what I was saying.

[Wickedestjr]

In all honesty, part of me hopes to god wicked's scum because I hate when people discredit PoE.

When did I discredit POE?

[Wickedestjr]

Funny, I thought if we were scum it would be blatantly misrepping it?

That's synonymous to what I said. I don't think either of you would have misread it as town.

[Wickedestjr]

For what it's worth, I'm not trying to argue that I should be townread for pushing Nacho, because I'm very much capable of bussing as scum. But I'm also capable of catching scum as town and pie hasn't presented a single legitimate reason for having issue with my push.

3. Doing nothing to lynch him?!? Are you friggin kidding me? I did more than most/all of the other players that voted for him. I started the wagon on him on days 2 and 3, gave actual reasons for doing so beyond gut/POE, and I argued with him throughout the last day. That's more than most/all of this town can say.

"oh I actually pushed him thats so much better than figuring out when other people seem town and want to vote him"

That is what bugs the everliving shit out of me

I have no idea what the underlined is supposed to mean. You should try proofreading.

[Wickedestjr]

Misreading things is alignment indicative?

Yeah, scum want to twist things to fit their argument. Town have more motivation to read carefully and treat posts as fairly as possible.

And they aren't the same thing, at all.

I think they are the same thing and I'm the one that made the comment.

I'm not getting into a semantics argument with you about this.

[Wickedestjr]

That's a pretty accurate paraphrase of what you said. It's essentially you one-upping everyone in the fucking game pretending that arguing with him and scumreading him for reasons other than poe makes you better.

And yes, I understand it's in response to something, but that doesn't mean it doesn't piss me off.

I'm not doing this at all. The purpose of that post wasn't to argue that my vote was the best and that everyone should townread me for it. Pie accused me of doing nothing and I pointed out that I had done more than most - that's a legitimate response because Pie shouldn't be attacking me for a reason that's more applicable to others.

[Wickedestjr]

Ugh for crying out loud, I said I didn't want to get in a semantics argument.

Misreading is accidental whereas misrepping is purposeful.

So you saying "I think they misread" reads as you think that only scum-us could make a mistake when reading the thread?

Had you said "I think they are misrepping" that makes a lot more sense, but you didn't.

Which is why it's scummy.

As I said before, misreading = misrepping afaiac. I believe scum can deliberately OR accidentally misread things. I believe misrepping can be deliberate or accidental too. So I don't see a distinction.

If you guys are scum, then your mistreatment of my play could be deliberate or accidental. If it's actually accidental, then I still have issue because I think it's more likely that scum would make a mistake like this, they don't really care about getting it wrong as long as their arguments sound good to convince somebody.

Aside from slimy TYs, this is the first thing you've pointed out as scummy from me. You have no reason to assume I'm lying about my semantic interpretations.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm done for tonight

[Wickedestjr]

Will post tonight

[Wickedestjr]

and yet you didn't do anything in terms of actually working with anyone or appealing to anyone to get votes on him - you know, the kind of thing town actually does when trying to get someone lynched

1. I can't think of anyone that actually did this.
2. I have voted for several people throughout the course of this game and never appealed for support for any of them. It's not just the Nacho vote.
3. Barring rare circumstances where I am almost certain that somebody is scum, I will never appeal for support (a few years ago, I used to put

so much

effort into convincing people and even when I was right I could never get support, people wouldn't friggin listen, so I've given up on that aspect of this game).
4. My suspicion of Nacho was never

that

strong. I'm not going to pretend to be more confident than I actually am. Aside from POE/gut, I had one point against him, hardly something to scream about. If huge cases don't work, then a single point sure won't work either.
5. It was obvious that one of {Nacho, Oversoul} was going to get lynched and even though I suspected Nacho more throughout the course of yesterday, I'll admit I wouldn't be angry about my second top suspect getting lynched instead. There was no point in arguing because it was obvious Nacho/Oversoul would get rope, it only took so long because we were waiting on people to post (Nacho, Oversoul, Tammy, etc.).

the entire crux of your Nacho push was that you didn't believe his RC read flop at the end of D2 and that was it, which is incredibly weak in terms of actual reasoning for him being scum.

You're calling my vote weak, but your suspicion of me is largely based on POE. Why can't I rely on POE too?

I think your interactions with Nacho make sense as scum distancing. what, exactly, is the problem here?

It felt like you presented my interactions with Nacho as a point against me rather than ruling it out as a reason to townread me. Again, I'm not saying you should townread me for my Nacho vote, I was very well capable of bussing him in the way that I did. It just feels like you're trying to make me look bad for something that is null, using points against me that are more applicable to others.

TL;DR- If you think my interactions with Nacho point toward me being scum, then your reasons are illegitimate. If you think my interactions with Nacho are null, then I agree wholeheartedly, but don't see why you mentioned it if it

was

null for you...

[Wickedestjr]

Obviously something I cannot do because I've been town reading them for most of the game. NS is mostly a POE scum read at this point. Pretty sure RC is in the same boat as I am. All I can do is defend the allegations against myself.

yes, the entire point is that you'd hopefully look into it in more depth and try to figure out why his play actually makes sense coming from scum

cos I don't remotely see it

Nope, I'm not the kind of player that does that. If I had a strong townread on someone, and then POE makes me change my mind, then I'm not going to reread them to convince myself they're scum - that sounds awfully confbiasy.

You should get to know me before making all these assumptions.

[Wickedestjr]

UNVOTE: No Lynch; VOTE: Wicked

I have no idea how to scumhunt anymore.

Clearly.

I think you're town and this vote actually makes me more comfortable saying that, but I'm pretty disappointed by this. You may have given up, but I haven't and I didn't play for >120 pages and >45 days to get mis-lynched in MyLo so easily - there's zero resistance to the thought of lynching me. If you're town, this is unfair (both to me and any other townies that care) and I know that you should unvote.

Why isn't it Pie/NS?

[Wickedestjr]

implosion, if you were/are an SK, who would you have killed night 1?

[Wickedestjr]

I don't understand what you're saying...

[Wickedestjr]

He's also claiming vigilante (which is exactly what he'd claim as SK). I am trying to figure out if the Gnomeo kill is a tell that he's vig rather than SK. I want to know if he claims that he would have targeted someone else as SK. Not sure what the problem is...


For what it's worth, if there's an SK, then I think it's 3-1-9

anyway

. So I'm not really convinced by the implosion-vig argument. I agree that it makes more sense for him to be a vigilante, but it's close and I'm not confident enough to rule out SK because his detached/passive early play makes more sense as SK than it does for 2-shot vigilante.

2-1-10 seems incredibly swingy (I haven't seen that in a very long time) and Empire's savvy enough not to make such a horrible setup as that.

[Wickedestjr]

Okay.

[Wickedestjr]

Oh forgot to ask. @Pie (and I guess anyone else that has issue with my Nacho push) - if I switched my vote to Oversoul at the end of the day to protect Nacho then why would I justify it with "Oversoul's my top suspect now" rather than "I'm so sick of this day, compromise voting OS" ? The latter is an easier to explain rationale that also doesn't require me to admit that my suspicion of Nacho weakened...

This doesn't mean much considering I'm the one asking it, but I am curious what you have to say about it.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked, do you think if everyone else had a general consensus I was scum and noone was countering it, that would mean I'm town?

Not necessarily, no. I would consider that a poor argument.

I'm guessing 3104 inspired this question. I didn't mention the fact that "there's no resistance" to convince RC that I'm town (because it's null), but to convince him that there's no rush to cast a vote because everyone wants me dead anyway. I know that I'm a mislynch, so of course I don't want RC to rush like this.

[Wickedestjr]

I think he thought he'd get read as town for the Nacho push (which is how he's been acting).

This is 100% false. I've clearly stated multiple times today that my Nacho vote isn't something I should necessarily be townread for. Thanks for reading

I'm insulted if you honestly think this was an earn town credit endeavor.

[Wickedestjr]

Why is he the one you're most worried about when it seems like everyone else feels of their own accord you're scum?

Ffery's waiting for implo and I'm waiting for fery, so i don't understand why you're worried about rushing or something.

Um because he's the one voting me.

[Wickedestjr]

Duh?

(I certainly haven't ignored the other people scum reading me)

[Wickedestjr]

Looking back, RC-scum still doesn't really make sense considering Nacho's behavior wrt him. Nacho defended him for half the game then all of a sudden suspected him. Doesn't make sense as scum v scum.

[Wickedestjr]

I think I probably wouldn't go for a vig claim as a SK. I'd probably just kill someone who was suspicious of me but I don't remember being under any suspicion at that point in the game, so I guess I'd just kill a generic threat like ffery.

Why would you consider this optimal?

[Wickedestjr]

Gnight

[Wickedestjr]

I think I probably wouldn't go for a vig claim as a SK. I'd probably just kill someone who was suspicious of me but I don't remember being under any suspicion at that point in the game, so I guess I'd just kill a generic threat like ffery.

Why would you consider this optimal?

I wasn't really thinking particularly far. If I wanted to give an actually accurate answer to this question I'd need to look at the end of day one, but I'm not entirely sure if that would even be accurate because I have no idea what my mindset would be going into a game like this as a serial killer.

That's fine. I'm inclined to believe you. (And now, even if you're SK, I don't want to no-lynch).

[Wickedestjr]

They bus each other very hard then agree to join forces midway through and bus their third partner?

It just doesn't make sense in my mind. I don't see the point to it all.

VOTE: Wicked

What aspect of it doesn't make sense?

"They bus each other very hard then agree to join forces midway through" - seems like something they'd do as partners, their conversation began shortly after day started (as it would if they had planned it the night before). Some other things to keep in mind: pie was cursing ns (her friend), they both expressed certainty that the other was scum, they're BFFs again today now that it's MyLo. If they really wanted to distance, why not go 'all in' ?

"and bus their third partner?" - is also a considerable possibility - by voting me, you are saying that you think I bussed my partner; so why couldn't they have?

And I didn't realize that scum were supposed to behave in a way that makes sense.

[Wickedestjr]

They bus each other very hard then agree to join forces midway through and bus their third partner?

It just doesn't make sense in my mind. I don't see the point to it all.

VOTE: Wicked

What aspect of it doesn't make sense?

"They bus each other very hard then agree to join forces midway through" - seems like something they'd do as partners, their conversation began shortly after day started (as it would if they had planned it the night before). Some other things to keep in mind: pie was cursing ns (her friend), they both expressed certainty that the other was scum, they're BFFs again today now that it's MyLo. If they really wanted to distance, why not go 'all in' ?

"and bus their third partner?" - is also a considerable possibility - by voting me, you are saying that you think I bussed my partner; so why couldn't they have?

And I didn't realize that scum were supposed to behave in a way that makes sense.

Do you see it as scum-wincon-furthering behavior?

Yes.

Pie v. Notscience... It's essentially a low-risk play that distances them from each other and allows them to display a town-ish level of conviction that can't be discredited (because they're both correct in scum reading each other) nor can it anger an opponent (because they're attacking each other). This works as long as they are good enough to execute - and I think they

are

both good enough to do this. At first, I thought they were both town so the exchange was weird, but I didn't think that it could be bussing. I have a blind spot for bussing and it didn't occur to me that I was overlooking the possibility until Oversoul/implosion flipped town/not-mafia. If I had town read one and scum read the other, then my town read on the former would have strengthened greatly from this. For context, note that notscience almost got lynched the day beforehand, pie wasn't part of that bandwagon, and pie wasn't ever the popular townread that you or Tammy were.

Nacho bus... doesn't give me any reason to doubt that one or both of them are scum. Almost everybody pushed Nacho at some point yesterday (except for RC who I think is town), so clearly there was bussing going on yesterday. But I can't see anything special in the pushes from notscience or pie.

[Wickedestjr]

Mafia miller seems like an extreme stretch.

-Doubt Empire would use it.
-If RC was a mafia miller, I think he would have claimed miller right off the bat rather than just breadcrumb it. "Mafia miller" is a strong indicator that there's a role cop which RC would want targeting him before their death.

If RC's scum, he's not a mafia miller.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm probably willing to go for Wicked (if for no other reason than I don't think winning seems particularly likely if wicked is town given the ns-ffery-pie reads).

This attitude is definitely helping

I can understand POE, but this is just lazy

[Wickedestjr]

The reason oversoul was lynched over him was how hard RC was pushing it.

If we lynched nacho yesterday, it's 7p-2scum. I'm saying nacho WANTED you to shoot him because him getting lynched looked inevitable.

I'm not sure you actually believe this. Why was RC the determining factor here?

[Wickedestjr]

Are you saying the emotion was fake?

Or that we just get that into scum that we can actually have such real emotion like that?

If you are scum with her, then yeah, the emotion was probably faked (barring the scenario where you two were genuinely pissed off by the bad arguments you were making against each other, even knowing they were valid).

1. Are you saying that you're incapable of faking this emotion?
2. Is Pie incapable of faking this emotion?

[Wickedestjr]

Yesterday I was toying with Nacho/NS/ffery and Nacho/Pie/ffery teams. Couldn't get a clear read on Nacho/Pie/ffery either way, but I

am

ruling out ffery/NS right now.

Looks like either NS/Pie or ffery/Pie. Still leaning towards NS/Pie, but I still want to think about the other possibility.

Regardless, I'm probably voting Pie today (if it matters)

More later

[Wickedestjr]

Pie, you've ignored me.

[Wickedestjr]

Sorry guys. Really distracted by RL right now (hence the 2 am posting)

I should hopefully post tomorrow.

[Wickedestjr]

Catching up...

Why do I think RC was the centerfold of Oversoul getting lynched? How vehemently he pushed it. How he started to discredit when pie and I linked up to vote Nacho.

He vehemently pushed it, but that doesn't mean he's the reason it worked. IIRC, he made one/two arguments for Vinkah/OS scum early on and then just called for votes on him. It's quite possible I'm misremembering what he contributed yesterday, but I think the pressure shifted to Oversoul long after RC made his case.

Well I will tell you flat out I won't go picking an argument with a friend like that for no reason as scum, let alone my buddy. You're welcome to check, but I highly doubt you'll find one. Scumgames of mine- Disney Upick, Survivor Mafia, Plants vs Zombies, Nightingale's Tale, Whatever bulge's large normal was, and you can find more in my ego search.

As town, have you ever ignored a friend, then scum read them with absolute certainty, and then changed your mind to start working with them?

And we have ffery saying that pie not being able ot fake that emotion was the centerfold of Nacho's towncase on her another game, so what do you think?

This doesn't mean anything to me. If she's scum, I think she's fully capable of faking emotion - I didn't see anything that doesn't look fake-able. And I don't care what Nacho said about her in another game - if he made a towncase on her for that reason, then that seems like a perfectly good reason for pie to try and exploit it.

And let's look at how long it took her to snap out and realize the emotion and compare it to Bins's Mini normal- she could tell right as she got in the thread what was happening and yanked the brake. Here, she was so caught up in her tunnel she had to come back and see it.

I think pie is scum though, so her realization that you're town doesn't do anything to make me think the same.

[Wickedestjr]

Can I ask you a question Wicked?

Literally noone thinks you're town

If you get lynched today it's game over

But you are hardly fighting it and just trying to nitpick my stance on RC and pie.

Why?

This is an awful question. You're BSing or conf-biasing with this.

The case against me is literally POE. What in the world am I supposed to do about that? I am a huge fan of POE (I've been using it almost all game) so I can't argue with the tool, even though I know it's leading to the wrong conclusion. You have brought up a few small points against me today and I've explained why they are all wrong. Pie said my interactions with Nacho looked like bussing and I explained why her argument was bad. I have also tried convincing people that you/Pie make sense as scum instead of me, so please tell me what more I should be doing right now. I'm doing all that I can and I have defended against everything.

Maybe I could spam angry caps-lock posts and call everyone stupid, but that's unhealthy, unhelpful, and just not my style (plus I don't think anyone here is stupid). Maybe you should try meta'ing me. It's clear that you haven't.

I nitpicked your pie stance because I think you're scum with her, so of course I'm not going to ignore it. I questioned your RC stance, because while I think you're scum, I don't

know

that you're scum, and I'm trying to strengthen that read by figuring out if you seriously believe in your RC-comment.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, if you're going to expect to try and say I can fake emotion like that as scum you better go find some stuff to back it up.

Um... no thanks?

-Meta's a good tool for catching scum, but it's not strong the other way. Please don't make me explain that.
-I'm a busy guy and it's

also

not worth my time to read all your recent scum games when I want to lynch Pie first (regardless of your alignment) anyway.

[Wickedestjr]

What do you think of wicked's stuff recently?

he sounds out of steam.

Maybe I am out of steam. Having awful reads this whole game (to end a summer of horrible town games) combined with everybody scum reading me for POE today is extremely un-motivating for me.

I still want to win and I'm still putting my best effort in

, but my motivation level is still pretty low. Even if I am right about NS/Pie and we lynch both of them, I'm

still

going to feel dissatisfied with my own play in this game. It took me forever to reach that conclusion and I'd been townreading NS/Pie almost all game.

But I've played from start to now and I feel like town, scum, and Mod all deserve my continued effort in this game. So that's pretty much my only motivation right now. If you guys want to scum read me for my recent game-detachment (even though I've never been prodded, read/responded to everything, and have been at school for the past two weeks), then go ahead but I think there are other details you should all be taking into account.

[Wickedestjr]

Namely his post on the last page- he's going after my RC "read" when I'm pretty sure I've made it abundantly obvious it just boils down to me thinking you and pie are both town and that means those two have to be scum.

This is a complete misrep. I'm not going after your RC read because of the POE behind it. I'm going after it because of one of the non-POE reasons behind it (that you think he's the reason that Oversoul's dead). Blatantly NOT poe. Try again

[Wickedestjr]

Also, I don't understand why people are accusing and agreeing that I'm "out of steam" when, while I've lost interest, I'm still trying and I'm actually not the only one who's exhibiting this trait.

[Wickedestjr]

Vote: No Lynch

[Wickedestjr]

It had nothing to do with the frequency of your posts.

It felt like that's why I was being scum read. E.g. you said my play days 1-2 was really townish yet now I appear to be your favorite lynch option and I can't think of anything that's changed aside from posting frequency (because you

also

haven't said anything beyond this and POE that I can recall).

Eh maybe I'm self-biased, but I feel like I've been putting similar effort in. If you are honest when you say you can't see that, then I don't know how - maybe it

is

school and shrinking motivation both sneaking into my posts here. I think those are both plausible explanations that I'm not the only player using.

I'm inclined to think you're town and that the game is in your hands tomorrow (assuming implosion dies), in which case I really hope you're not dead set on voting with NS/Pie tomorrow. Are you?

[Wickedestjr]

Okay...

[Wickedestjr]

*fingers crossed*

[Wickedestjr]

No Lynch,

Mafia Goon

,

not

lynched Day 4.

It is now Night 4.

[Wickedestjr]

I'm probably (90%) going to vote for Pie today (I really can't envision any scum team that doesn't include her), but, given the scenario, I want to relook/rethink through everything. Won't have time to give this game the attention it needs until weekend.

[Wickedestjr]

Are you kidding me?

Vote: RedCoyote

[Wickedestjr]

Do it, implosion. I don't really want to play anymore.

ns and pie deserve it.

I can't really wrap my head around 3323. this is lylo. If you're town then fuck the voting bloc. Figure out your strongest pick for scum.

VOTE: Wicked

[Wickedestjr]

Looks like it's RC and pie. I

still

think that ffery's town. NS probably would have pushed for my lynch today if he was partners with RC. Pie, on the other hand, sat on the fence.

Now that I know RC is scum, all I can say is this: there's a reason he's voting me instead of NS/Pie and I think it's because he's trying to implicate me if he gets lynched today.

[Wickedestjr]

Do I really need to keep pretending like this is a decision I'm going back and forth on? It's mostly confirmed that ns/pie, ns/ffrey, ffrey/pie aren't scum together.

RC, we cannot both be town because the game is still going. If you were

actually

town, then you would realize that...

[Wickedestjr]

It's almost certainly RC/Pie right now. I think Pie's waiting for Ffery to put me at L-1.

Ffery/NS, please don't mess this up. Vote RC and then, tomorrow, I can try to convince you that I'm not his partner.

[Wickedestjr]

1:

Do I really need to keep pretending like this is a decision I'm going back and forth on?

2:

It's mostly confirmed that ns/pie, ns/ffrey, ffrey/pie aren't scum together.

1: Nobody would expect you to back-and-forth when it's already confirmed that one of us is scum.
2: It's absolutely confirmed that ns/pie, ns/ffery, ffery/pie aren't scum together.

[Wickedestjr]

That post makes me believe you didn't realize it was 1 v 1. The post implies that you're unaware and, IIRC, you never acknowledged the fact that the current scenario has confirmed us as not 'both town'.

Let's cut to the chase, okay? Let's not pussyfoot around. I'm not going to sit here kicking rocks while ns and pie make 50 posts talking with one another about how much they want to lynch me. Then one of them votes me, then the other, then scum hammers and the game is over. No, I'm going to at least make things interesting. I'm going to force you to be put on the spot, Wicked, and I'm going to force you four to have to deal with that. I know you'd much rather me just silently accept my inevitable lynch, but that just ain't going to happen.

IIRC, you were voting for Pie at the end of yesterday, so it doesn't make sense for you to vote someone else and then be impatient like this - you changed your mind so obviously the extra time has been important. You put me in a spot where I had no option but to vote you, hardly put me on the spot.

And don't give me that absolutist crap. Nothing is ever confirmed until the mod says it is and you know it. That said, the point is moot. No need for you to try and score points off of it.

Sure it's not 100% confirmed, but I am 99.5% certain that Ffery/NS/Pie are not the kind of people to screw with us like this if we're both town. It's ridiculous that you're even making this argument.

[Wickedestjr]

Looks like it's RC and pie. I

still

think that ffery's town. NS probably would have pushed for my lynch today if he was partners with RC. Pie, on the other hand, sat on the fence.

Now that I know RC is scum, all I can say is this: there's a reason he's voting me instead of NS/Pie and I think it's because he's trying to implicate me if he gets lynched today.

I know this is a dead horse, but I'm pretty sure I made it my point yesterday that I wanted to lynch RC before you, so I don't know why this is a thing.

...I'm aware of that? My point was that I know RC is scum right now and if you were his partner, then you could have very easily pushed for my lynch today for the win (pieguyn doesn't care who's lynched, and ffery probably prefers my lynch, so there'd be no reason for you

not

to vote me).

I'm calling you

town

for that.

[Wickedestjr]

Also, I would

love

to answer any questions that anyone may have for me.

[Wickedestjr]

I'd prefer RC solely because worst-case scenario I could see notsci being NK'ed and you misvoting me in 3p, but realistically that's probably just me being paranoid.

This doesn't make any sense...

[Wickedestjr]

ffery, who do

you

plan to vote? I sense that it's me, but I'm not sure.

[Wickedestjr]

Wicked's right. I do want to vote him.

I really think that you're the swing vote right now, so this is bothersome. You (and everybody else for that matter) are doing nothing to sort me, but seem to want my lynch just because of POE and because you think I became disengaged (which I gave an explanation for).

notscience, if you

really

want RC lynched today, then I think you should vote him soon - before ffery makes the mistake of voting me.

[Wickedestjr]

From you're perspective, if you're town, RC has to be scum. Where in his play prior to neither of you getting hammered did he come off as scum to you? Or comes off that way in retrospect?

I thought RC was neutral/scummy on days 1 and 2 for two reasons...
a.) the Anen hammer - I explained why it bothered me at the beginning of day 2 (page 31-2 I think) and while I can't do anything more with his response, I do still think it was a bad hammer vote
b.) meta/gut - My only previous experience with RC is Swagtown where we were both town. I hadn't played with him, but I knew he had a reputable scum game. I'm usually cautious in reading experienced players with strong scum games, but I could tell pretty quickly that he was town in that game. Next to Tammy, he might have been my strongest read in that game just because he felt

so

genuine. I

never

got that same feeling from his early play in this game.

I reached a point where I couldn't really do anything with (a) and I was worried that (b) might just be an experience change - swag town was two years ago I think. I also thought that his below-average effort + strange attitude would be town tells for him given his preference for scum. In retrospect, these 'tells' could be things he knows to exploit given his experience with everyone in this game and also considering his partner Nacho was the one designated to read him.


Fastforward to the end of day 2 where he claimed miller. I ended up town reading him for this (because it seemed like a bizarre move to make as scum), but, as I explained before, the crumb was an awful decision for him if he was actually a town miller. In retrospect, I should have been more skeptical and more open-minded than to immediately assume 'too scummy to be scum'.


On days 3 and 4, RC felt genuinely sick of this game but this was still a side of him unfamiliar to me. I guess I misread it completely.


Today I know he's scum and I honestly think he didn't realize it was 1v1 (which is probably a scum tell too).

[Wickedestjr]

Good game all! Even though we won, I was certainly sweating on those last two days.

Empire thank you for the awesome game!

I enjoyed playing with everyone here!

*reading dead PT*