Mini 1742: game over

[Taly]

Hey everyone! Familiar playerlist

VOTE: Titus

Time to throw some hands.

[Taly]

VOTE: Taly

I see how it is.

Get ready to 1v1

*sharpens claws*

VOTE: Frozen Angel

A little bit of pressure should thaw you.

RC, I'll give you a solid townread the whole game if you sheeped me in voting Titus.

Same offer goes to talah and Frozen.

[Taly]

RC, I'll give you a solid townread the whole game if you sheeped me in voting Titus.

Same offer goes to talah and Frozen.

That seems like an odd way to go about business considering the sequence of events.

Have you got a scumread on Titus now based on her response to your first post where no-one else had posted? Or are you just wanting to sort her?

Also I could have voted Titus for the return-vote had I wanted to at the time, but I didn't (same as I could have asked RC if I'd wanted at the time why Frozen Angel was a better unposted player to "thaw" than ICEninja).

As it is - I'm happy to get a wagon up on Frozen Angel if that's possible and try to sort a player I haven't played with before. There's nothing stopping you from having a conversation with Titus if you're looking to sort her (in fact, that was the reason I wanted to leave you two alone to joust), otherwise I'd like to hear about the scumread you've got.

My 2 posts in RVS were reaction posts. I wasn't serious about what I said, but what I was going to respond to.

I gave you a perfectly good opportunity to get townread and instead you analyzed my post and tried to talk to me about it.

That infers to me that you'd rather not get townread as long as you're solving this game.

I see that as highly town-motivated.

As for Titus, I am trying to sort her. The only games where we're both town is when we're bitching each other out. Her reaction wasn't too serious, but it wasn't too defensive. I have a slight gut town lean on that, but that could change quickly.

Do you have a case on FA?

Fuck me, I'm gonna confuse Taly and Talah way too much this game.

VOTE: Johnny

You know why.

Scum said this in the first game of talah and I together...

I like FA for town atm <3

And your vote is on her, because...?

>>>

Extra Notes

I feel like FA's defense would more likely come from newbtown... My gut says the thought is genuine, though I can see the argument against it.

Plus, it is towny since RC, FA, and talah didn't just train Titus just for my read. FYI - in most circumstances, sheeping is null in my book - at best.

very nice reasoning to make a wagon SO fast SO early ... So your saying we should lynch whoever we don't played before to just sort them out ...

2 votes is the start of a wagon, sure. Wagonning to get reads is fine until there's something better.


Yeah I'd lynch you at this point. Especially if you have nothing better to contribute than a counter-vote on RC, considering there have been several other things happening.

Edit: hi Titus btw. You scum this game? How am I gonna know...?

Sort me... While I sleep.

But yeah, Titus engaging with us would be helpful...

>Also, is ABR, and Johnny alive? 40 posts in and no life signs....

[Taly]

Man y'all talked a lot while I wasn't here. talah get less wordy, I had to stop myself from skimming.

VOTE: Wickan first post was shit. Others should vote here as well.

First, what do you think about RC townreading FA with his vote still there? What do you think about FA and talah's back and forth?

Tbh - I'm OK with the RC wagon atm, but I want to hear his response.

I can also do Wickan.... But one post isn't very convincing.

@talah how often are you accused of going too hard too fast? (teehee) Also don't say butthurt it makes you look 13

The sole thing that makes me unsure of talah is that she wasn't this quick to get serious and thoughtful in our town game - then again, that town game was an open that happened almost 5 months ago. So I don't think this holds a lot of water.

@Taly why Bells, talah, and Frozen specifically?

They were the first half to post after me?

I wasn't going to wait until after RVS before trying to get reactions; plus in my post, I was engaging with 4 other people - Titus included. So the likelihood that scum was amongst them was decent but not probable. Since talah sheeped RC, I wanted to see if anyone would sheep me on Titus if I townread them with no problem.

(Which I wouldn't, if nobody has pieced it together, yet.)

Basically, my RVS posts were to get reactions and I just took things as they came in terms of who did what.

In the end, the only 2 people I wasn't sure of are Titus and RC. Titus for reasons since she hasn't really provided anything serious yet, and RC because....

Yeah, I have a helluva time trying to read RC; I wasn't lying about that in the previous game when we were both mafia together.

vote who? I already voted him...

I think he meant Wickan

[Taly]

In retrospect, 39 wasn't very pleasant either.

Wickan, why do you call out FA for covering up her issue with talah but then you vote on RC? I'm not getting a game-solve vibe from you?

It's also a little embarrassing that I still have my RVS vote up...

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Wickan

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest

Are you referring to me or Titus...?

[Taly]

woops new page

First, what do you think about RC townreading FA with his vote still there?

Happens. Is there something scummy in there or does it just look funny to you?

Mostly funny - Unsure of what to think of FA and RC's interactions together atm...

What do you think about FA's vote on Wickan?

yep that's actually an interesting case ...

VOTE: Wickan in L3

need to see his reaction about this wagon , first ...

@JohnnyFarrar why am I making you nervous?

Actually, it's L-2 since Ice was the initial vote.

[Taly]

What do you think about FA's vote on Wickan?

Same as yours, too easy. Not gonna fight it right now though because I want this wagon.

Well, it's not like keeping my RVS vote up is helping... Especially since I explained its purpose. >_>

yep that's actually an interesting case ...

VOTE: Wickan in L3

need to see his reaction about this wagon , first ...

@JohnnyFarrar why am I making you nervous?

Where did the drop on your talah push came from?

[Taly]

Hold the phone, people.

Well, usually I'm *that* guy that goes in deep on the first page or two but looks like we've got someone already doing it for me. Awesome. Gives me a chance to say "hello" to the handful of players here who I recognize from the old days.

Vote Wickan

. How is it scum motivated to push for information gathering regardless of what page it is?

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

@talah: I interpreted the townread offer by Titus to be completely in jest. Just normal mafia jabbering. It's not clear to me that that in particular points either way.

I clearly said I have no problems with your

[talah's]

vote. your tone in the other hand , don't seems like town

This is just plain not true. You did have problems with talah's vote; you thought (like I did) that they were making a serious vote off of obviously RVS/spam material (cf 15 22). I dislike that you try to cover this up.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

What drop on talah push? she is in my list for now .

I'm not allowed to have 2 scum reads ?

yep that's actually an interesting case ...

VOTE: Wickan in L3

need to see his reaction about this wagon , first ...

@JohnnyFarrar why am I making you nervous?

Am I the only one that feels really weird looking at these posts together? Titus, give me some thoughts here.

FA, didn't expect you to question John's suspicion of you while you comply to the wagon; because somehow John's suspicion on Wicked outweighs your initial push against talah?

UNVOTE:

I'm not going to give anyone the satisfaction of putting someone to L-1 this early in the game.

Concerning Wickan's wagon, he hasn't even posted yet and he has enough votes if half of the reasoning against him is just to pressure....

I'll keep my vote for a bit, I want to see RC respond first to his suspicion and my question before I assert it once again.

[Taly]

Alright so page 1 starts off with a bang. There are a few innocent RVS remarks, and talah goes hard, presumably to spark discussion early, which prompts Wickan's vote.

As I've stated, I don't like Wickan's vote because while talah looks to be sparking discussion, Wickan seems to find sparking discussion scummy. He responded to my vote saying:

Scum isn't necessarily. I interpreted that post by Talah as being completely serious, and to the extent it was serious I found it to be trying to find information where there was pretty clearly none. It felt to me like making a mountain out of a molehill.

While I somewhat understand this mindset, it seems a bit weak.

The back and forward between talah and Frozen gives me a town on town vibe, but I'm not sure. Frozen is kind of all over the place and seems difficult to read. As of right now talah definitely feels like he is posting with the most pro-town mindset, actively looking to expose scum.

The thing that's the most interesting to me is how Wickan's wagon got going hard super fast, to L-1.

1)

Wickan's wagon NEVER reached L-1. It was at L-2. It's 6 to lynch. Good start off to showing us to how much attention you're paying.

Johnny's push makes total sense and I like his vote, but Taly and Frozen Angel hopped on SUPER fast.

2)

If you read 53 - then you would know that I had - in part - some of my own reasoning on jumping onto Wickan's wagon.

The way the wagon stormed ahead really feels like scum got opportunistic and hopped on, and it really looks like either Taly or Frozen.

3)

Oh look. Dichotomies. Since you want to say that one must be scum -

Look at the vote order: See mine coming first?

Taly's post 66 looks like scum realizing this and backing out before getting caught too soon.

Ow! And yet I'm voted anyway........ Darn. Must try harder next time.

But yeah, what about my unvote is being "realizing that I could get caught"?

4)

Tbh, I unvoted to avoid someone pushing the wagon to L-1. Apparently I'm scum for decelerating the wagon but it's super scummy of how much speed it obtained?

I don't understand what you think is scummy?

That combined with Frozen seeming more likely town than scum in the 1v1 with talah means Taly is probscum.

Unvote, vote Taly

.

More emphasis on the dichotomies -

Plus, half of this post is spent on talah, FA, and Wickan in the first 30 posts of the game.

You're emphasizing my posts the past 20 - not the posts I've made up until this point.

Furthermore, my vote on Wickan isn't exactly a surprise. I stated in 50 that I found RC and Wickan to be suspect but I wasn't entirely sure of which to pursue - I wanted RC to respond, and I looked back at Wickan's 39 to see if there was anything that I missed - since that was his second post so far in the game.

>>>>

I am not fond of Ice's catch-up post if that wasn't obvious. I would like for him to reply to my questions and assertions.

RC posted.... 70 does not look like scum-RC... It seems more thoughtful rather than pushing somewhere to get something.

Somewhat like someone else who is being FoSed in this game for being disorganized.

I feel like this could be referring to me?

[Taly]

What am I reading...

I'm being called opportunistic for my jump on Wickan's wagon.

Now apparently - my unvote is weird, too?

I apologize for the large number of quotes. There were many small things that needed responding to.

Wickan's wagon NEVER reached L-1. It was at L-2. It's 6 to lynch. Good start off to showing us to how much attention you're paying.

You are correct, my miscount. There are 10 people in this game. Where is ABR?

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell... You know... given that the mod confirmed on the first post that mafia did have 72 hours of daytalk.

I doubt the most active people in this game are scum.

If you read 53 - then you would know that I had - in part - some of my own reasoning on jumping onto Wickan's wagon.

This doesn't dispute the fact that the timing of your vote was opportunistic.

And FA's wasn't? Because you did say that the speed of Wickan's wagon was fast given that FA and I voted.

Plus, did you not read my post links? I already stated before that I was considering the Wickan wagon - even before John prompted to put the vote there.

Oh look. Dichotomies. Since you want to say that one must be scum -

Dichotomies...are you sure you understand what that word means? You also twist my words pretty hard. Underlined for emphasis:

I'm detecting some condescension here and I'm not town-reading it.

If you're going to target my vote specifically and say that I'm scum versus looking at the entire argument - including the people you involved in your initial push (FA) - then don't dismiss what I'm trying to say as if I don't what I'm talking about because the basis of your push seem narrow-sided.

Since you want to say that

one must be

scum -

The way the wagon stormed ahead

really feels like

scum got opportunistic and hopped on

Definitely feels like you're trying to misrepresent my point here. I never said that one or the other has to be scum, and I never said only one of you could be scum. I was explaining my line of reasoning for voting you as opposed to the other person who could have potentially been the opportunistic scum to jump on a wagon.

Oh... So now you're referring back to that "scum" - not singularly saying that I'm probably scum versus FA who looked more town, right?

The way the wagon stormed ahead really feels like scum got opportunistic and hopped on, and it

really looks like either Taly

or

Frozen

That combined with

Frozen seeming more likely town than scum in the 1v1 with talah means Taly is probscum

.

Dichotomies in this context - means division. You said that I'm either - more likely scum than FA, or the scum itself.

If you're meaning that FA's vote too could have been scum - then why am I being referred to as being opportunistic when:

1)

My vote on Wickan wasn't random.

2)

It wasn't entirely sheeping.

3)

When I still asked questions to get a better stance of the situations even after my vote was placed?

Apparently I'm scum for decelerating the wagon but it's super scummy of how much speed it obtained?

Also responding to Wickan here

. It reads to me like you realized how fast this wagon formed on someone and removed your vote because keeping your vote there would make you look bad if he flips town (and if you're scum you probably know he would).

Actually another possible theory I just had. Based on this...

People with night talk will have 72 hours to get accustomed to another.

it looks like scum have 3 days of daytalk?

Mod, can you confirm that this means scum have 72 hours of day talk during D1?

With that in mind, it looks like these two could even be scum buddies with Wickan saying, via daytalk, "whoa dude don't bus me this early in the game I'm L-2". That explains the unvote just as well as Taly realizing the vote was dangerous to make as scum.

......................................................

Are you really going to associate me with the person whose wagon I hopped on

And then you're going to cast suspicion on them too?

As of post 35 I don't think anyone had expressed thinking Frozen was town yet. Am I wrong?

Tbh, I still hold a slight town lean on FA. But this is a volatile read.

I didn't really like their vote on Wickan; though I would want them to respond to some of the current posts right now. I get a vibe from them that spells out GENUINE. It's a gut read too, though.

[Taly]

The organization of that post is weirding me out.

Who's this

Are you really going to associate me with the person whose wagon I hopped on

targeted at and if it's a response to the quote above it then why is there a line?

I'm referring to how Ice put up an associative scumtell between Wickan and I - even when I hopped on Wickan's wagon with reasoning.

Ice basically tossed suspicion on Wickan as he was saying that I am scum for my 'opportunistic' vote on him.

Also responding to Wickan here. It reads to me like you realized how fast this wagon formed on someone and removed your vote because keeping your vote there would make you look bad if he flips town (and if you're scum you probably know he would).

Actually another possible theory I just had. Based on this...

Mod wrote:
People with night talk will have 72 hours to get accustomed to another.

it looks like scum have 3 days of daytalk?
Mod, can you confirm that this means scum have 72 hours of day talk during D1?

With that in mind, it looks like these two could even be scum buddies with Wickan saying, via daytalk, "whoa dude don't bus me this early in the game I'm L-2". That explains the unvote just as well as Taly realizing the vote was dangerous to make as scum.

>

The more I think about this, it makes me wonder that it was fabricated.

The line

"............................................................."

Exemplifies my frustration.

[Taly]

Funny how the people who've played with me before are having a shitfest with each other while I'm busy 1v1ing someone in the corner.

Did you think I was in significant danger of being lynched?

On page 3? Absolutely not. If the wagon had continued and you put to L-1 on page 8, without Taly having a good place to move his vote to? I can absolutely see that.

Wtf? That is way too presumptuous and tunnel-minded thinking.

I don't see town with this thought process... The idea that you must believe that someone would do this so early in the game suggests that you're waiting to strike someone versus actually trying to understand what it could be coming from.

I'm being called opportunistic for my jump on Wickan's wagon.

Now apparently - my unvote is weird, too?

Yes. It looks like you felt you made a mistake with your vote, then unvoted.

Because

1)

I didn't want the wagon to go to L-1?

2)

The vote itself wasn't very strong; and it was meant for pressure and incentive to ask a question.

3)

The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

All of which, I've said about twice now...

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell

This is very possible. A quick check of his posts show that he hasn't posted in his other game(s) since Friday, and this game started yesterday. If he had posted elsewhere I would agree with you completely, but not posting anywhere on the site during a weekend is kind of null-ish IMO.

Ah, I didn't see that.

Meh... his entrance was useless.

And FA's wasn't? Because you did say that the speed of Wickan's wagon was fast given that FA and I voted.

FA's was equally opportunistic. I gave reasoning why I find FA to be less likely scum than you, ergo I voted you. That being said, I really should do a onceover of her. Memo to self.

I'll help you remember that about FA - especially when you said - and state in this post, that I am scum and not 'more or less likely.'

Plus, did you not read my post links? I already stated before that I was considering the Wickan wagon - even before John prompted to put the vote there.

Yet you stayed with your RVS vote until there was a wagon. Ergo, my accusation of opportunism.

Um.... So....

I didn't join the FA wagon. (Which was mostly RVS, I know.)

I didn't join the talah wagon. (Which isn't entirely RVS.)

I thought of joining the RC wagon, but decided on Wickan.

Yeah.... >_> I'm definitely opportunistic.

Oh... So now you're referring back to that "scum" - not singularly saying that I'm probably scum versus FA who looked more town, right?

I can't vote both of you. I picked which fish to chase. Though as I said above, both of you merit some deeper investigation.

To be fair, I still am suspicious of Wickan. He was my original vote, after all, but Taly jumping on him made you seem more likely to be scum until I remembered that tidbit suggesting night talk. As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The one nagging feeling I have about Taly right now is that he hasn't voted me. Scum Taly had ample opportunity to drop a safe vote on me during this whole argument but hasn't.

.......

Are you trying to bait me?

You said that the one NAGGING feeling about me is that I'm not voting you - as if that's why you could be pushing?

But then you said scum Taly would have had so much opportunity to drop a safe vote on you.

MAYBE I JUST THINK YOU'RE MISGUIDED TOWN?

Maybe I haven't found enough reason to conceal a vote that isn't partially just for pressure?

The idea that you're pulling my punches, makes me think you could be town.

And even though your argument is ----- not the best, politely ----- that doesn't erase town from saying this.

I typically get into a lot of TvTs in games - especially D1.

-------------

Regarding Wickan/RC/Titus, I read RC's townread of FA on page 2 as joking at first due to the heart, but after a re-read I feel like I probably shouldn't have based on his post 70 giving a reason for the FA townread. This gives Titus and Wickan more credibility, and means I might need to re-evaluate some of my reads.

I still feel like talah reads pro-town, and I like Johnny's aggression but I need to go through everything again when I have time with the mindset that RC was indeed voting a townread, which could impact my read of Wickan and Johnny both. Also need to spend more time analyzing Frozen Angel.

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

I would say Johnny obvtowned with his first post about RC... Given our last game when RC and I were mafia together. And some of his others posts.

But his tone is different this game.... I want to look at him more closely.

Damn this game needs to slow down a bit.

you want to calm down your partner ha?

@RC , its somehow not usual you. I think (with my little knowledge) you start a very angry wagon on someone at this stage of game ...

Taly I can't see a good reason to unvote before wiccon's answer. It seems you wanted to say he is scummy But you didn't want to pressure him (like he is your scum partner) ...

Interesting how you never brought this up whenever I actually unvoted.

>>>>>>

More thoughts

>

Talah needs to get in here, ASAP.

>

Not really fond of Titus saying that RCs vote was OMGUS. Though, I'd like to hear more of RC's case on her.

[Taly]

So after people worked onto me about my vote on Wickan to be opportunistic

Now people's attention is at my unvote; because god forbid me to interact with a moving D1 wagon with my OWN judgement, right?

^ I wasn't online whenever you actually unvoted. or I was but I didn't noticed

you unvoted at 2 am in midnight in my timeline so ...

are you accepting this that unvote was scummy?
what was your reason for unvote again?

and I like your questions about Ice ninja really like to see his answers.

Um.... Honey, no.

I never said my vote was scummy. Ice stated that my unvote seemed like I made a mistake.

I stated reasons as to why I unvoted.

Don't twist it.

110 is ugly.

So... Actually engaging with someone presenting an argument against me is ugly?

In the span of that post, Taly a) states that he cannot see how ICE's thought process is town, but thinks that ICE is misguided town;

1)

Yes, I am having difficulty that Ice's thought process is town. Does that mean he must be scum? Disagreements don't always mean scum, this is why town gets lynched.

2)

I didn't explicitly say that I thought Ice was misguided town. I said that some elements of his approach with his argument was towny - and when he asserted that I was scum and trying to bait me for the vote, I told him why I may not be voting him - which is partially the truth.

Assumptions are corrosive, especially when people weigh them too harshly on people who are scum. I have a mixed read on Ice - in case you didn't realize.

b) claims that his vote on me was meant for pressure, yet doesn't really have an explanation for why he took it off before that pressure did anything;

Did you NOT read my 53?

When was my vote EVER completely about pressuring you?

And no explanation? I'm sorry, but did you not see the part where I said:

3) The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

Sorry I didn't draw a picture and sent it in a separate post.

c) argues that his jump on my wagon was definitely not opportunistic;

I'm sorry but you said my vote ONTO your wagon.

But here you said:

ICE: What surprises you about how my wagon formed? I actually think it seemed quite natural. I grant that the weirdest part was Taly's jumping off before I even responded, but I didn't find any of the actual votes unusual at all

Nice seeing how you completely changed your demeanor and thought of your wagon when I argued against this shit case over my vote.

d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

Oh, I can give you ALL my town games. You'll see me get into a lot of shit with people.

Talah, RC, Titus - they've all seen my town game at least once (Same as ABR, I think) - and Johnny and RC have seen my scum game.

But that's not even why these final 2 'points' are bad.

1)

Where am I hedging Ice's read on Johnny? All I said was that - partially a meta read - I thought Johnny was quite town. Since my very last game he was town.

I made it clear that I also thought his tone was different, and I wanted to observe a bit more to be firm on the read.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

VOTE: Taly

Speaking of opportunistic votes...

@FA: ICENinja isn't pushing me. Voting for me yes, but pushing me no. I think the wagon on me was normal D1 pressure, which tapered off when Taly decided to prematurely abandon it.

And does that tell you that you should pay attention to Ice's "theory" that we're a scumpair? -_-

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

As I pointed out earlier, this could make total sense for them to be a scumpair, particularly regarding Wickan's subtle defense of Taly's unvote in 78.

The question in 78 was meant 100% seriously. The problem, as occurred to me while I was writing it, was that the single best answer for why scum-Taly unvoted me is that I was also scum. But from my perspective, that obviously doesn't make sense. I was wondering whether you would notice that Taly's unvote implied that (which you did).

In short, it wasn't meant as a defense of Taly. It was a genuine question, as his unvote made no sense to me from a town

or

scum perspective.

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

A scum flip here would be extremely telling in regards to Taly too.

Still don't see this mastermind 'Wickan+Taly theory' scumpair or anything.

Funny how the people who've played with me before are having a shitfest with each other while I'm busy 1v1ing someone in the corner.

I read this and wanted to say something, but I got nothing.

Well, what was your feels and thoughts about it?

But his tone is different this game.... I want to look at him more closely.

Shall I pose?

What do you think of Ice and Wickan's push onto me?

Do you understand the Titus push, because I'm not exactly... And I'm waiting for RC to recognize my existence.

Also, I'm throwing FA to my active nulltown pile as of this point. The phrasing of her questions don't feel crude.

[Taly]

Phone posting so this is gonna be broken up. But really sorry.

Well, what was your feels and thoughts about it?

I'm wondering why you said it I guess? Looks vaguely like a call for help.

I think you misinterpreted, I asked to see if you'd remember if I said something about it, or given any thought to you when looking at it.

What do you think of Ice and Wickan's push onto me?

I think they make sense from the "I haven't played with Scum Taly" point of view and you getting all worked up will only make it worse in their eyes. Calm down.

I can see it, too. But that doesn't remove my argument or why I am not fond of the assessment.

I'm not losing my mind or anything, but I guess being calm would be best.

Do you understand the Titus push, because I'm not exactly... And I'm waiting for RC to recognize my existence.

Bells doesn't have anything good yet. That's why he's a non presence.

Titus is someone I disagree with a lot so I'm trying to hold judgment until she actually comes in here and explains herself.

Oh, I see.

I just tend to not read things accurately when there's nothing much of it. (In reference to RC's vote on Titus) This is why line-by-lines are useful.

>>>>>>>

Reading Ice's 127 - glad he actually followed with the FA re-look.

Haven't seen Titus too much, either. So bleckh....

Good that he pointed out ABR was foxposting. Yeah, my null is climbing to lean scum on ABR. Especially since his entrance was weak in a pool of content and he made no further set obligations to expand on anything.

Speaking of lurkers; has anyone seen Simple Plan since like... post 10?

[Taly]

I mean guys the thread's been open for less than two days, is it the time to condemn people as lurkerscum?

Here's where the mentality to be suspicious of 'lurkers' this early is coming from

1)

Scum have daytalk for 3 days. This may not mean much, but typically - you'd think people who didn't post much or didn't post anything useful so far would be somewhat suspicious for having conversations in a scum PT.

2)

Applying this to ABR; he's done virtually nothing. Granted, his debut post was the previous page to my belief - but by that point, we were already out of RVS and had several discussions happening - and he had nothing to say.

3)

Applying this to SP; he's really not done anything since RVS. I did however just check his posts and he has not yet posted at all on the site. So I think he's just busy.

You do have a point about it being early.... I'll just withhold judgement on SP and ABR until they post again and go from there. Though, I don't think it's too stretchy to not bring it up.

[Taly]

Role PM's are out! As in all myko games, don't bother confirming, day one starts now! People with night talk will have 72 hours to get accustomed to another.

With 10 alive, it's 6 to lynch. Deadline is in three weeks.


As a personal request from the mod, in a game this small it should not be necessary to have replacements. I don't mind looking for them, but when playing I enjoy games a lot more without the inevitable hindrance they are to the flow of the game. I imagine I'm not alone in this. Please treat this game as a commitment.

[Taly]

I didn't think that the quotes also used the color. sorry mod, if that was wrong.

@Also Mod, Titus voted RC in 64 and hasn't changed.

[Taly]

@Taly where's your head? are you a waiting person? Is no one currently caught up in the game worthy of your vote?

Not usually. But I've held my vote for awhile before. I did get mislynched D1 for doing it once, though. I didn't form solid or accurate reads (I usually don't D1 - but then I tend to go crazy once I see some flips) - I was wagoned, told I had to make reads, and somewhat of a case or die - threw my vote and case on a townie; then got 3v1ed and hammered by scum right before the deadline.

Wasn't a pleasant experience. It's partially why I think the basis of peoples scumread on me over my vote/unvote is bad - especially since it's D1. Also why I want to consider Ice being town for our back and forth.

I'm somewhat torn on Ice, though - I thought the association tells he tries to put up with me and others are just, ewww, (Wickan is no better tbh) - along with my argument with him in the first place. Other than that, I like his detail-oriented approach and it makes sense....

I'll probably vote somewhere once I see more FA, Titus, or RC. Namely, as I've said - I don't know much about the Titus and RC back and forth. I already stated that I'm getting weird vibes from FA and I'm not liking how they phrase some questions and just stand around until they're pushed.

Looking forward to Wickan's response to my rebuttal.... The fact that he's already posted but hasn't even mentioned me makes me think a re-vote is best in order.... >_> Plus, my vote on Wickan would put him to L-1 so I want to get engagement before it gets to that point.

Then there's SP, ABR, and talah - whereas I townread talah of course, but SP and ABR have not really done anything....

So yeah, there's my head.

[Taly]

1)

Yes, I am having difficulty that Ice's thought process is town. Does that mean he must be scum? Disagreements don't always mean scum, this is why town gets lynched.

2)

I didn't explicitly say that I thought Ice was misguided town. I said that some elements of his approach with his argument was towny - and when he asserted that I was scum and trying to bait me for the vote, I told him why I may not be voting him - which is partially the truth.

Assumptions are corrosive, especially when people weigh them too harshly on people who are scum. I have a mixed read on Ice - in case you didn't realize.

You did not explicitly state, but 110 very, very heavily implies that you think ICE is misguided town and you are engaged in a town v town battle. And from the outside, it's very difficult to tell the difference between mixed feelings and fence-sitting.

Um, no. While I did say that I could see Ice being town, I didn't outright said that dominated my read - and since when is mixed feelings a scum-tell?

Did you NOT read my 53?

When was my vote EVER completely about pressuring you?

And no explanation? I'm sorry, but did you not see the part where I said:

3) The wagon - in my belief - did go too fast, and with the posts I already brought up where I unvoted, I wanted to look at that more.

Sorry I didn't draw a picture and sent it in a separate post.

I read both. I know the stated reason for the vote. But that early in D1, the point of the vote is to put pressure on me and see how I respond.

And your stated reason for unvoting is ridiculous. I ask you the same question I asked ICE: do you really believe I was in imminent danger of being lynched? And even if you thought the wagon did move too fast, the natural response from town to that thought would be to ask why and try to suss out whether scum was involved. You didn't do that; instead you stalled the wagon, removing pressure, and went after ICE.

I'm ISOing you and I do not see a post or line that is directed to me with this question. Please link it to me if I'm wrong.

And I wasn't entirely sure of whether you'd be lynched. Do you think I can mind read?

Plus - how was my unvote removing pressure when you answered question when I placed the vote?

Nice seeing how you completely changed your demeanor and thought of your wagon when I argued against this shit case over my vote.

I didn't. In a vacuum, I don't find your initial vote on me scummy at all. It was normal, early-game pressure. And it was opportunistic to the extent that it jumped on a forming early-game wagon.

...You're still going to go from saying that your wagon was natural and not scummy - to pushing your case on me that my vote is opportunistic - just like what Ice had already accused me of.,...

d) claims to "get into a lot of TvT in games; and e) follows along with ICE's hedge on reading Johnny. This looks like a combination of trying to paint his interaction with ICE as town v town and follow along with ICE's other suspicions.

Oh, I can give you ALL my town games. You'll see me get into a lot of shit with people.

Talah, RC, Titus - they've all seen my town game at least once (Same as ABR, I think) - and Johnny and RC have seen my scum game.

I don't doubt that you get into plenty of TvT. But the way you brought it up bugged me. It sounded like you were trying to give yourself an out from the argument, implicitly trying to convince ICE that you were both townies and should stop fighting and go after somebody else. So it's not that I'm saying the statement isn't true; it's that I think bringing it up like that is scummy.

Why would I need to convince Ice if we were both town or not?

I know damn well I am town, you think I'm buddying Ice for trying to argue with him while trying to see his perspective?

1)

Where am I hedging Ice's read on Johnny? All I said was that - partially a meta read - I thought Johnny was quite town. Since my very last game he was town.

I made it clear that I also thought his tone was different, and I wanted to observe a bit more to be firm on the read.

That, what you said right there, that's hedging. That's pretty much exactly hedging. He seems obvtown, but his town is different, but you're not sure. That's hedging. And the way you did it, it felt like buddying up to ICE.

Right.... Because part of my read on Johnny was meta... and not all games are the same, right?

And what about the way I did it felt like buddying? Is it wrong to add a read to something?

Okay, this essentially replaces the bottom half of my previous post. I apologize again for spamming the page like that.

2)

What is bad about pointing out the POSSIBILITY of TvT? Honestly, out of the 7-8 games I've been in, only 1 or 2 is where someone (town) pointed out that a 1v1 could be town shitting on each other.

I mean, would you rather see me put a huge damn dichotomy and division of the people in this game and outright assert that Ice is scum as he had done to me? Or he should be lynched - so anyone can go off of his flip and flashlynch me next dayphase?

Tell me a time where pointing out someone, or an interaction is town - could be from a scum who wants to cause as much chaos as possible to get town against each other.

I don't claim that you're trying to cause chaos. I claim that you were trying to say "TvT" to get out of the discussion with ICE. Again, the problem is the way you said it. I welcome other opinions about this, but it rubbed me the wrong way.

"The way you said it" - "It rubbed me the wrong way"

You keep bringing this up... That's most of your argument here, which is pretty invalid considering that you're not backing it up with actual posts, it seems like you're going off of very subjective terms to fabricate case onto someone.

Does my - explained unvote - put ANY pressure off of you, because you got quite a few votes quickly and for varying reasons.

Yes. Absolutely yes. The very act that somebody unvoted expressing doubt about the quality of the wagon is enough to remove pressure.

Expressed doubt? This is what I said with my unvote:

UNVOTE:

I'm not going to give anyone the satisfaction of putting someone to L-1 this early in the game.

Concerning Wickan's wagon, he hasn't even posted yet and he has enough votes if half of the reasoning against him is just to pressure....

I'll keep my vote for a bit, I want to see RC respond first to his suspicion and my question before I assert it once again.

This was after I posed a question to FA which I don't believe she ever responded to.

Yeah.... >_> I wasn't comfortable with the votes - I already stated - and I wanted to look at something else while I STILL wanted to see what you respond with....

And now you're pushing that my unvote made no sense either alignment -

But you're pushing that as if I were scum.

Without even acknowledging the reasons as to why I unvoted?

As stated, your reasons for unvoting don't make sense in and of themselves, particularly in light of you not following up on it. And the stated reason especially doesn't make sense without waiting to see my response (the wait wasn't that long).

That still does not explain to me why you're now continuing your push over my vote being opportunistic - which originally seemed like you had no problem with - and now that my unvote is weird or scummy - even though you said you couldn't see it come from town or scum perspective - after I explained to you it....

>>>

My god.... It's getting late here, and I cannot think straight...

This is how I’m seeing this entire thing play out.

>

Ice originally scumreads me and votes me for my vote on Wickan for being opportunistic. 69

>

Wickan says that the votes on his wagon was natural. 77

>

I defend and explain myself to Ice while telling him why I dislike the case.

>

Ice then expands on why my unvote looked like scum trying to hide a 'mistake' 80

>

Wickan still doesn't really say anything against that other than that it was weird. (His posts before 113)

>

I explain myself further and rebuttal Ice's theory on why Wickan and I are scumbuddies because I unvoted him.

>

Ice baits me that I'd have safely voted for him if I were scum - I didn't as I said that I could see him being town. 96

>

Wickan is now saying that my original vote on him was opportunistic - after saying his wagon was natural - but then says I'm scum trying to buddy up with Ice. 113

>

Ice is now torn on his read with me. 121

…..All of this is just way too damn messy….

This isn’t even involving FA’s vote where only Ice is now looking at, or FA’s questions directed toward me – thinking I accepted that my unvote was scummy?....

This is throwing me through a loop.... I need to sleep on this.

[Taly]

I actually think if ABR is purposely lurking it could be a scum-tell... You know... given that the mod confirmed on the first post that mafia did have 72 hours of daytalk.

I doubt the most active people in this game are scum.

What's the theory behind this?

That is the theory....

Alright so a few things jumped out at me during my re-read. Frozen Angel in post 16 claims that calling someone a confirmed mayor was just spam. I don't really understand this. Can someone explain the joke? This whole interaction feels really weird to me.

Next, talah goes hard. Really hard.

Yeah I'd lynch you at this point.

That is page 1, saying he'd be fine actually lynching someone "at this point". Wow. Then:

I would *definitely* lynch you right now.

This is page 2. Shortly after he states that he hasn't joked about anything.

Taleh, had I put her to L-1 on page 2 would you have announced intent to hammer? I definitely approve of pressure early on but this is seriously over the top.

I've discussed my thoughts on Taly's Wickan vote, but I haven't said too much about FA's. FA pretty clearly voted for pressure, and Taly's unvote alleviated pressure. I'm having a really hard time suspecting FA for the vote though simply on account of Wickan looking so damn scummy right now, and Taly looking to have a higher likelihood of being a scum buddy. Additionally, I missed the first time around when Johnny actually pointed out to Taly that his vote on Wickan seemed "too easy", shortly before Taly's unvote. This strengthens my initial suspicion which has been weakened by other evidence. I think I'm just going to have to shelf that thought for now, because there are more interesting things actually.

So this interesting tidbit from Titus:

This Wickan wagon is crap.

RC is voting someone who she has a townread on and didn't move the vote. Wicked points this out and votes RC.

Um, no. This never actually happened. Wick

an

hadn't yet pointed this out. In fact, I can't find ANY mention of Wickan saying ANYTHING about Cowbells until well after the vote, and after Titus comes in and states why Wickan voted, despite Wickan not having actually said anything about this.

Am I missing something there? This is triggering some SERIOUS daytalk paranoia. Then Wickan comes in during post 77 and states that the things RC did to merit him voting her are "unhelpful and anti-town", though no mention of being scummy.

A side note, can we please not have 2 people with the same LoL character avatar, when we already have players who have names that are easy to mix up?

I am confirmed mayor in another game. Sorry you have trouble reading. Does your role PM say scum?

Titus, can you please explain yourself on your RC scumread? And your Wickan and ABR townread? You responding with rhetorical questions aren't helpful...

In fact it's bothering me because I'm not sure that Titus is scum here, just deathtunneling like a derp.

VOTE: ABR

This is scum for sure.

Why ABR and not Wickan - is your suspicion on Wickan dependent on Titus?

Also, contrary to his claims that we'd get towncred for it no one ever gets towncred for doing something they're told they'll get towncred for.

That's the point... I wasn't going to townread people for sheeping me on Titus.

If someone followed me then I'd suspect that they were likely scum.

RC

- what's the scumread on Titus about, anyway? I'm not really seeing it.

Taly

- having trouble reading so much content in walls again. Hit me up with some Tony Danza if you want my input k?

A lot of my problems on getting accurate and straight-forward thoughts are bubbling from Ice and Wickan's overall interaction with me, and how FA walks around that.

Just ISO me to see my previous post about my overall thought process here.

What I can't seem to understand is - People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Basically... I feel like there is probably scum between:

Ice, Wickan, FA

I'm tossing around Wickan and FA, moreso Wickan as the candidates - what do you think?

>>

@FA, you've ignored my engagements to you twice from what I'm seeing.

66 and 124

@Mod, Titus' vote is on RC?

[Taly]

You never asked me anything so what did I missed?

after 66 I'm sure I stated that my case against Talah stands (as its not stands that strongly anymore right now because most of it was simply because of misreading)

and in 124 you answered my question. what were you expecting to hear?

You replying about how I said I disliked the way you phrased your questions?

People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Oh get over yourself

, I was the only one doing that, and apparently I had you so worked up by that you couldn't scum hunt. Don't make it in to something it wasn't.

Please do not make this personal.

Well actually lets start sorting titus out.

why your posts are only one sentence long and your not explaining your actions. you say RC is scum becuase he is scum. Ice is my second suspect atm. wiccon wagon sucks ....

pedit : I got sniped by jhonys post

You say that the Wickan wagon sucks

Yet you're still on it? Or am I missing something here?

In fact it's bothering me because I'm not sure that Titus is scum here, just deathtunneling like a derp.

VOTE: ABR

This is scum for sure.

This strategy is getting old.

And you just saying this and laughing is helpful?

Change your avatar lol it's legitimately terrible. The walls of text in this game are demotivating me. Let's make a lynch happen.

Alright, let's work on that.

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

1)

I have no clue why Titus thinks you're town. Even when I asked 211 I don't see her explaining that (And yes, I did read why she thought Wickan was town.)

2)

You've had 5 pages to do something remotely helpful but you're just breeding apathy.

3)

Even now when people post you dismiss the conversation, and the fact that people have repeatedly stated that they couldn't read you and you don't follow it up with anything of substance does not look town at all.

There are not enough votes here.

[Taly]

Awesome -_-

How do you go about reading that?

That is the dilemma of me and ABR. I go by warm tinglies or not.

So.... your townread on ABR is gut - if anything? I'm not understanding this.

You say that the Wickan wagon sucks

She's repeating what Titus has been saying, not stating her own opinion here

Oh, I misread. x_x

[Taly]

Wow, I'm being ignored.

VOTE: johnny

Naked votes are clothed-scum votes who don't want to be exposed.

I'm fine with my vote here, you completely dismissed me even when I called you out on doing it to others.

Plus what happened to the RC push you never expanded on?

Johnny, why so obsessed with lynching Wicked?

Titus, this is going to be the third I'm asking.

Why is ABR town - if you actually think he is?

>_>.... Also - if you want to talk about how someone is so worked on lynching another person - why is your vote still on RC? It has stayed there since. 64

You've given more reasoning on why Wickan is town (and why his wagon is shit) than you actually have on why RC is scum.

[Taly]

Also Taly that post I just quoted has some Scum Bells rationale in it

This isn't meant to say anything mean toward Titus - but I'm not always the best at understanding Titus' post.

(Even though, I probably can't talk.)

Yeah, I can see that - and especially after Titus said that she meant division which I could also see.

Wow, I'm being ignored.

VOTE: johnny

Naked votes are clothed-scum votes who don't want to be exposed.

I'm fine with my vote here, you completely dismissed me even when I called you out on doing it to others.

Plus what happened to the RC push you never expanded on?

Johnny, why so obsessed with lynching Wicked?

Titus, this is going to be the third I'm asking.

Why is ABR town - if you actually think he is?

>_>.... Also - if you want to talk about how someone is so worked on lynching another person - why is your vote still on RC? It has stayed there since. 64

You've given more reasoning on why Wickan is town (and why his wagon is shit) than you actually have on why RC is scum.

Feelies on ABR.

Cuz RC hasn't done any scumhunting since I voted her.

So it is gut.

The RC-no scumhunting makes sense - I'll need to ISO him in depth, but it does look like he isn't doing much to push... especially since RC foxposted in a few threads a few minutes ago and hasn't looked at this yet.

OK, not entirely sure of RC town atm.

[Taly]

You say that the Wickan wagon sucks

Yet you're still on it? Or am I missing something here?

it was what titus saying. read whole sentence ....

I know... I said I misread a few posts later when John pointed it out...

You replying about how I said I disliked the way you phrased your questions?

what about me phrasing my questions? I'm confused .

I'm not sure why you inquired that I was accepting that my unvote was scummy?

Eh... Maybe I'm just digging for a needle in a haystack in bringing this up. x_x It may mean nothing, I just got some weird vibes from the phrasing.

You really have that much of a scumread on him? I've seen you pushing but don't really remember the thrust of the argument that he's scum.

Big's not the word. It's a day one scumread and it's a good one. Better than anything else I've seen.

Who is this in reference to? Wickan or ABR?

>>>

We do have a high content D1 so far; I'm not exactly sure why talah and FA continue on about their original interactions in discussion. But there's nothing there that jumps to me as scum. I don't like FA saying how useless talah's case is, but I still get a newbtown vibe from them - it's really fluid, which sucks.

@talah

I can understand the whole 'Ice oldschool town archetype' but it rubs me the wrong way, I'm not understanding where his heads at, which bothers me. I do agree with John, it does feel like he has an agenda and that's why my read is torn on him.

Plus, I rarely hear town say something like:

"Oh, get over yourself"

Eckh.... Association tells aren't bad D1, but Ice has relied a bit on those on his reads which feels like he's creating a little world that revolves around who needs to be lynched rather than looking at his reads in an individual light. If that's understandable.

>

Wickan on the other hand... I can see misguided town; but him scumpainting me after he deliberately contradicted himself about his wagon is very deceptive, especially since it seems like he's actively pulling people toward something that was already looked at.

Plus he never looked back at my rebuttal toward him, and I feel like I need to prod him to get anything.

Needless to say, ABR may be better at helping reads with RC, Titus, and somewhat Wickan - but ABR is my only definitive scumread at the moment since I can't really figure out Wickan and Ice.

This bothers me more because half of the town seems to townread Wickan, and the other half seems to townread Ice - and vice versa with scumreading.

[Taly]

Who is this in reference to? Wickan or ABR?

Bruh the answer to this question is literally

on this page

, you gotta learn to not skim

Honestly, I just got tired of doing back and forth walls with you that weren't getting anything done. I couldn't seem to convince anybody that you were scum and it wasn't changing people's minds about me. I just thought my time was better spent elsewhere.

On Albert: I actually don't think he's scum. I mean, he's being completely useless, but I'd rather we lynch somebody we think has a decent chance to flip as opposed to a policy lynch.

Alright, I see why you didn't respond then.

Tbh, seeing as about 3 to 4 people so far have said that ABR does this as scum - makes me wonder if that's true here.

If we had to PL in this game - this isn't a bad time. But I do agree, several people are pretty decent lynch options to see flips.

Plus, I don't think ABR's flip will be void of information. Especially since Titus wants to gut-townread him while ABR plays somewhat to his scum-meta, from what I understand.

Plus, I rarely hear town say something like:

"Oh, get over yourself"

That is alignment-neutral irritation. You tried to come off as some martyr because town was pushing you for this reason and that and woe is me and it just annoyed me. I pressured you early to see where it would go.

sigh... I'm not trying to come off as anything, I'm stating what I think - if I misinterpreted it; then I'm all ears to here your side....

Eckh.... Association tells aren't bad D1, but Ice has relied a bit on those on his reads which feels like he's creating a little world that revolves around who needs to be lynched rather than looking at his reads in an individual light. If that's understandable.

I feel like this is also either a misrepresentation of my views or a demonstration that you don't understand them. I've clearly stated more than once that Wickan is, by far, the scummiest player in this game.

Also

, his scum flip will give information. There's a reason I'm NOT voting Titus, because without any flips, my associative tell is useless. You can bet that'll change day 2 if we get the relevant information.

I'd go with misunderstanding because I know you think Wickan is the scummiest person in this game, and that his flip will give info.

The thing that makes me think is - you put out a theory concerning that Wickan and I are scumpair, then Wickan comes in saying that I'm scum buddying you for the back and forth over my vote/unvote on HIM - himself.

From what I'm seeing - I'm being thrown out as an associative with several players at this point - and this isn't even considering Titus saying that I'm scum with RC and you, who you apparently scumread as well.

I don't think people see the how sticky of a situation this is - it causes all kinds of division and miscommunication, and the fact that people discredit me as "woe is me" and "youre a martyr" seriously makes me question their perspective in this game - IE, whether they have an agenda to push something as scum despite what may be presented, or town who actually wants to decipher between the game and work on it.

This is why I considered - and still leaning toward, you being town - and Wickan - being possible scum, for the inconsistencies I've seen of him - and the idea that he hasn't pushed anyone else yet after saying that my wagon isn't going anywhere...

That's my thought process.

RC Taly Ice, are y'all scumbuddies again?

Since you can clearly use slightly scum and slightly town, a pure null read with high content is something I don't like.

1)

A pure null read? I see pure-null as something of "Oh, can't tell - not inclined to look to much into it"

Each of my posts so far as of when Wickan and Ice post, is me engaging with them to create conversation.

2) Did I misread? How would you know if we had 3 scum? This alone is worth my vote.

3)

Love how you threw RC, Ice, and I together in some shit-association. Especially since:

Wickans vote is on me, he express he wants to get people to vote for me - but you only throw me in with RC and Ice's name and then paint my reads on Wickan and Ice as pure-null without trying to engage with me on my previous post about them.

You got ABR to vote - he went for Ice - after he voted for RC and John, and you've tunneled RC for the last 280 posts. Something I've never seen you do remotely as town. Please link a time where you did so if I am wrong.

Unsure of how to read ABR's 341....

UNVOTE: Albert B. Rampage
VOTE: Titus

We haven't had a true push on you.

Hope you sharpened those claws since RVS.

[Taly]

@Titus

1)

In terms of my reads? Well, I make mine coherent.

2)

Look at the many Mini Normals I have played - all my games (without ones I replaced in/out, which were Larges you were apart of) - I've never been in in Normals this size. Plus, any statistic isn't very reassuring on D1.

3)

Is the Johnny wagon also bad? If so, why?

4)

Haha. Haha. Haha. Haha. Haha. Haha.

>_> Instead of trying to figure out how scummy you can be without getting lynched; try actually forming more than 2 townreads while giving reasons why a wagon should be pursued versus shitting all over the ones that have occurred so far and minimizing those arguments that have been made against you.

I shouldn't have to read between the meanings of your posts to have a hint of what you're trying to do.

[Taly]

Scum is in

RC Taly Ice Johnny Talah ASP

Gut says nope to talah asp so like 10 there
Johnny I would only vote deadline against myself

There that's my reads till we get a flip or someone else obvtowns. :-p

You wanted more townreads here you go Italy. Lols.

Italy is my name for when I go insane mid-game. Not quite there yet.

But yeah.... The fact that you'd only vote Johnny against yourself Is very survivalistic - which in itself is an idea to set-up a dichotomy - the fact that you won't explain your townreads in depth feels like you're leaving options open and keeping people guessing.

It doesn't help because talah and Johnny have been townread a lot so far, and tbh - talah is nulltown at best because she hasn't added anything beyond FA, Ice, or Wickan - or in general, beyond several pages ago.

Your reads so far seem mostly gut... Which does make sense in forming D1; but that's most of the back-up for why you want to push the people you do now. I can't tell where your head is at.

There's a lot to look at to understand someone more in depth - and to help pursue a wagon you want, tbh - but you're not doing much about that, you seem concerned with other things.

Reading between the lines is scumhunting Taly sorry to bother you.

I mean, I'm voting you because I want to see that? Not a lot is changing my read so far. Mind giving reasons?

Furthermore, you never said why Ice was a good wagon to pursue - beyond my previous post wanting reasons.

He's not scum. Nor is FA. Nor is ABR. I won't vote em. Would rather NL or be lynched myself.

I can see FA town, but meh.... Wouldn't want to sort FA right now, too many other people that I have a stronger opinion of, and growing.

The confidence in your gut reads kind of bother me.... Maybe we just take gut reads in differently; but you really have not done much of anything to sort ABR beyond just dismissing the possibility of read him and think he's town.

Also, what the fuck? You'd rather NL and get yourself lynched?

........

How is this town? Do I really need to point out the many reasons why this is scummy?

You could be a major townbeard...

Wth does townbeard mean?

scummy as hell ^

You're delusional if you're town but I'm banking on cheeky scum

The pot calling the kettle black.

Try engaging with me - Titus Drone.

>>>>

RC is a bit null, but there posts seem genuine to me... The only thing is that he keeps switching wagons. If you're going to vote Wickan or go on Titus; it'd be much helpful staying on one and working with that more...

Also RC - I'm sorry for what happened.

*hugs*

Furthermore Titus; if you want to compare me and my only scum game - let me link the game and point out all the differences in this game to that:

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=63741 - My game as mafia with RC.

1)

I was very inactive; I only made 30 posts in the whole 2 months of that thread, and I've already succeeded that amount and it's not even a week yet. I do intentionally go inactive and flake to derail suspicion.

Have you seen me hide from anything?

2)

The fact that you just want to call me scum for saying RC's RVS vote was still on a townread - but not voting - is a huge exaggeration compared to how thoroughly I ignored RC that game. And several posts in this game so far, is me trying to gauge for RC's attention if you didn't see.

3)

RC has been VLA a lot, and from what we know see - is from very legitimate reasons, tell me how RC and I are plotting this mastermind scum-game when we interact completely differently than before.

And if you want to say that I'm still scum - only more comfortable on my SECOND GAME AS MAFIA, which is why I am like the way that I am....

Titus, you've seen town-me at least twice. Do you think I'm trying to pull punches, or not? >_>

Also RC, anytime you - or anyone else that wants to put me back into the inquisition chair - I'm all for it.

[Taly]

.....

*blinks*

Did I just log on and get misrepped TWICE? Then ignored?

@Taly, I engage but hate walls this game.

Self meta is accurate probably but meta *farts*. You're ignoring your initial opening of RC is scum but vote Wickan.

@RC Sorry for your loss.

1)

Good to know you dismiss everything I said in that post as a hate-wall post. Like wtf?

While you completely disregard any attempt to talk to me about why Ice or RC is a good wagon to pursue - AND answer any fucking question that I have. But that's not the icing on the cake

2)

WHEN did I say that RC was scum for having their RVS vote on FA after he townread her? 40 50

I did throw suspicion, and thought that RC was a good wagon to start - but RC was never a scumread.

Furthermore; why was voting Wickan such a bad thing? I was suspicious of him as well.

Another thing - your hold rebuttal of me self-metaing is complete trash. You go from:

"Self-meta is kind of accurate..."

But then you just dismiss and say meta as if you dismissed the argument as if it were nothing. Yet you say RC and I are scum based on our interactions in our previous game as scum? 334 361 Which btw, is wrong - and that entire sentence was backwards.

talah is nulltown at best because she hasn't added anything beyond FA, Ice, or Wickan - or in general, beyond several pages ago.

Sheesh, talk about your arrows to the heart. And here I was thinking we had nice confident townreads going on one another.

Talah - I am townreading you, it's just null due to not a lot of posting on your part compared to a lot of other content coming up. I don't really see anything that's scum of you, compared our town game last time.

Anyway, I've done a bit more than that actually. I have JohnnyF as town, you as town, Titus townleaning and ABR some nullscum bullshit I can't read unless he decides to play the game. Simple Plan might be lurker-scum.

RC can be town just on principle. I don't see any deceptiveness coming from that area.
Ice I'm going to put back to null for now but I have some interest in getting something better. I've just been lazy and busy.
Frozen I might be mistaken on as scum but I'm keeping an eye on it.

I'll add to that, that what I'm seeing from Titus appears to be classic Titus town play - very little explanation you can actually follow and attempting to lead town with bravado. Surprisingly her possible-scumpool has both ICE and A Simple Plan in it - and although I'd prefer Frozen and ABR in there as well - realistically I'm rethinking both ICE and Frozen so I don't really have a beef with her.

So that's where I'm up to right now. Also I'm probably going to be casual / sporadic with this game I've decided (and this may just be a general playstyle change for me so that I can play mafia consistently rather than in huge work-heavy spurts), so get used to it.

Eh.... I can see Titus town. We get into a lot of shit when we're both town together. But I don't know, tbh..... There's a lot of scummy things I see from Titus.

Short case: Taly's 110, his attempts to insist that his discussion w/ you were TvT and his buddying up to you, and going all the way back to his unvote on me early on, removing pressure. Although he does seem to have dropped the townread on you recently (not sure why, as I'm not sure what you've done differently that prompted it). (Taly will promptly dispute that he ever had a townread on you, but I honestly don't know how else to read 110)

See also my 230 for the short case on RC (although slightly out of date, I think most of it still holds)

Also @ICE: see my question above on the Titus wagon. Is it primarily driven by Titus not explaining her reads?

Pop the brakes for a minute. Wth.

If you're referring to my read on ICE.... I AM townreading Ice, and I've said that in 344 and have said that I was lleaning town on him for awhile.

Why did you think I wasn't townreading him?

Furthermore - why did you say that I'd DENY any kind of townread I had on Ice?

This looks like a calculated misrep.... Especially since you still painted my interactions with Ice - me saying our interaction as TVT - was an attempt to BUDDY him.

.... This deserves a re-vote but I'm not done with Titus and her drone yet.

I'm suddenly grateful

Gratefulness is a great thing.

Except I win even with low effort, that's how good I am. Even gave you a link as evidence

Yeah. This isn't changing my scumread on you.

Thanks for ignoring me the 4th time.

I mean seriously - my responses to your posts in my walls so far have been about 3 sentences. Max.

At least TRY.

[Taly]

While you completely disregard any attempt to talk to me about why Ice or RC is a good wagon to pursue - AND answer any fucking question that I have. But that's not the icing on the cake

See prior post.

You think Ice and RC are being inconsistent, not open, and/or not transparent?

OK, that took too long to get out of you - but I understand where you're coming from now. I'm nulltown on RC until he provides more content - but the general vibe I'm getting from him in this game, wasn't like last game... Last game he was very gung ho on whatever he was set to do, and did so in a very twisted way.... I don't see any agenda like the being imposed here. That's where the town feel I'm getting from RC originates from. Plus, I've seen town RC several times... RC seems consistent, know that it is RC.

Ice... I already agreed with the idea that he goes have an agenda. I don't agree with the Wickan wagon being horrible, though... The fact that it has been the top wagon for a little over 10 pages is a bit frightening.... But I'm scumreading Wickan...

I did throw suspicion, and thought that RC was a good wagon to start - but RC was never a scumread.

Furthermore; why was voting Wickan such a bad thing? I was suspicious of him as well.

Yeah, that's not how it looked. Throw initial suspicion = scumread.

Cuz Wickan is town.

Change the words push comes to shove, you had the same suspicion level and voted Town over Scum. That's going to ping for me.

This is my problem with you Titus; you appear as if you think anyone who goes against your reads is scum.

I have no idea why you're so confident in Wickan being town, and still unsure of why your RC scumread is semi-strong even now when RC has been absent for life issues. Your reads are static.

I've never seen this level of confidence early in the game kill scum. And it doesn't help that our last game was where you tunneled town D1 similar to this and was scum.

I have difficulty understanding what you're doing, Titus.

Another thing - your hold rebuttal of me self-metaing is complete trash. You go from:

"Self-meta is kind of accurate..."

But then you just dismiss and say meta as if you dismissed the argument as if it were nothing. Yet you say RC and I are scum based on our interactions in our previous game as scum? 334 361 Which btw, is wrong - and that entire sentence was backwards.

Needs Rephrasing.

Basically, it looked as if you wanted to credit me on me being correct about my meta - versus dismissing the argument as "meta" and ignoring it - but then you did just that.

That looked very backwards.

Taly you asked for my reads and I gave them. Ice is scum and needs more votes.

I would ask if this was your only read... But you apparently think talah is town. But that's still not a lot to go by.

I've been told this by you and Titus over and over and compared to my other scumreads, Ice doesn't look like scum - I'm townreading him. I don't understand what more you're looking for, or what you want me to see that I can't.

If you're referring to my read on ICE.... I AM townreading Ice, and I've said that in 344 and have said that I was lleaning town on him for awhile.

Why did you think I wasn't townreading him?

Furthermore - why did you say that I'd DENY any kind of townread I had on Ice?

This looks like a calculated misrep.... Especially since you still painted my interactions with Ice - me saying our interaction as TVT - was an attempt to BUDDY him.

Why did I think you weren't townreading him? Because you weren't.

What I can't seem to understand is - People are throwing associative tells all over me, while criticizing my vote and unvote off of a wagon - and then twisting my questions and answers to have a thought.

Basically... I feel like there is probably scum between:

Ice, Wickan, FA

I'm tossing around Wickan and FA, moreso Wickan as the candidates - what do you think?

I can understand the whole 'Ice oldschool town archetype' but it rubs me the wrong way, I'm not understanding where his heads at, which bothers me. I do agree with John, it does feel like he has an agenda and that's why my read is torn on him.

Plus, I rarely hear town say something like:

"Oh, get over yourself"

Eckh.... Association tells aren't bad D1, but Ice has relied a bit on those on his reads which feels like he's creating a little world that revolves around who needs to be lynched rather than looking at his reads in an individual light. If that's understandable.

The thing that makes me think is - you put out a theory concerning that Wickan and I are scumpair, then Wickan comes in saying that I'm scum buddying you for the back and forth over my vote/unvote on HIM - himself.

From what I'm seeing - I'm being thrown out as an associative with several players at this point - and this isn't even considering Titus saying that I'm scum with RC and you, who you apparently scumread as well.

I don't think people see the how sticky of a situation this is - it causes all kinds of division and miscommunication, and the fact that people discredit me as "woe is me" and "youre a martyr" seriously makes me question their perspective in this game - IE, whether they have an agenda to push something as scum despite what may be presented, or town who actually wants to decipher between the game and work on it.

This is why I considered - and still leaning toward,

you being town

- and Wickan - being possible scum, for the inconsistencies I've seen of him - and the idea that he hasn't pushed anyone else yet after saying that my wagon isn't going anywhere...

I grant you that you said you were leaning town on him at the end there, but your opinion of him has been decidedly mixed. So to say "I am townreading ICE and have been leaning that way for a while" is disingenous.

So... I'm disingenuous by saying that my townread on Ice is gradually becoming more likely town and that I think he is town...?

But then you just said that I wasn't townreading him......

Why did I think you weren't townreading him? Because you weren't.

You just argued with me saying that I didn't townread him - now you're arguing that I am 'leaning town' or 'townreading' Ice? The nitpicking here looks fabricated....

That doesn't even matter, completely. The fact that you want to misrep and saying that I'd deny any my read before actually consulting me is scummy as hell.

Especially since now you're telling me to my face that I wasn't; and instead scumpaint me further by enforcing the idea that I'm only trying to buddy with him over something that happened 300 posts ago.

THAT'S disingenuous, and makes me think that instead of actually looking at other people to sort - you're only trying to push my wagon further by saying whatever you think you should.

Guess we're done with that conversation? Boring. Who else is around?

What do you want to talk about? I'm very drained mentally though, so I may not be completely responsive.

Wickan, Titus, and ABR are driving me crazy.... My read on Titus and ABR are fluctuating from scum to vague-town and... I haven't seen a post from Wickan that looks town since he broke away from me to actually sort other people - since our 1v1 was distracting ourselves... but then again..... he's pushed nobody else so far in this game with a vote.

Talking to these 3 are just exhausting me... and I'm not getting much clarity here besides the good chance that they are scum

But I keep thinking that 1 or 2 is probably town... Amount of scum is just a WIFOM basket waiting to happen and associatives are just dividing here... So I feel frustrated about this.

>>>>>>

talah, wiki me - just look at my first post game... it's where I was an SK. I won the game.

[Taly]

Taly you just seem sort of upset this game. Let's make boxes.

Kinda... More like exhausted and frustrated, though. Not at anyone particular. Just a bit with myself; I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around some people these games.

This D1 so far is not an example of my most focused townplay. >_> I just feel wishy-washy when I know I should assert my pushes.

Box 1 is "I'm not gonna vote these people today"

talah
You
RC
FA

Box 2 is "I could vote these people right now"

Who are in those boxes for you? I don't really need reasons, just names.

SP

Titus

- Vote is on her.
Wickan

>>>

I could pursue Ice... But I think he's town versus who I've been pushing these past few pages.

ABR is just hard to try to speak to... I wonder if D2 would be easier - since we'd see flips then. But I wouldn't mind either way, though I wouldn't want to pursue him again right now.

I have no idea why you're so confident in Wickan being town

He's unlikely to be scum with Ice given their interactions.

Eh... Hmmm.

Idk; I've had some scary thoughts of Wickan and Ice being together but that seems very stretchy at this point.

What do you think of Wickans vote on me, and Wickans interactions with ICE so far?

[Taly]

OMG, the activity in this thread is completely scandalous! <3 Talk about a rush of motivation coming on. I don't recall being in a game this full of shit.

Today's Friday, so when I get home from school I'll have a lot of time to put my thoughts on in a more concentrated manner.

Wickan, talah, Titus, and me vs. ICE, RC, Taly

Is this the gist of how today is gonna go?

RC's been VLA. Talah and I are townreading each other. Wickan is just trying to get people onto my wagon. Ice has derped throughout Titus and I throwing hands with each other. And you're just now talking to me in the abundance I'd have liked you to the past 20 pages. While you and Titus go after Ice.

So... that's my view of this clusterfuck.

Not Voting: Johnny, Titus, Albert
Could Be Talked Into Voting, But I Wouldn't Be Happy: ICE, Frozen, Talah
Happy To Vote: Taly, RC
I Have No Thoughts: A Simple Plan

Cool. Love to see how you'd be happy to vote someone who you've had your vote on the past 15 pages or so....

Also, why are FA and Talah options exactly?

If you guys want to drag this out for 3 weeks we can, but I don't vote for that plan.

I agree... We really don't need this much time here...

your version of 'townies' is maybe different than mine

also now I'm tipsy so if anyone wants to take advantage~

Johnny.....

But yeah... still connecting the puzzle pieces that is Titus this game.

>>>>>>

I don't have much more time than to just somewhat-skim somewhat-read in the mornings... I kind of want to hear more of this SP being scum. I'm now townreading him at all, but I'm not sure if I caught on to the reasons why he's been wagoned right now.

Also, there is no chance in hell that I'm voting for a NL.

Too much going on with people.

[Taly]

So..... I have some time to put down my thoughts on SP since he's posting more, and my thinking right now.

Spoiler: Me on SP

I keep looking at SPs ISO... The only main problem I have with his posts so far - other than inactivity - is that he somewhat says what has already been said - and what he's said himself, is really not developed or thoughtful. Whether that's flake town or scum shadowing I don't know yet.

Example - 519 - His Wickan read is really bad.... Like, that's the only post of Wickan he's seen since RVS and he just wants to come in and say that he's town? That just looks like he's trying to get attention off of something.

He puts out that Titus and RC was TvT. (Still 519) I can see that, yet - I don't know where the rationale of it is coming from - especially since he said that he was wrong about that before - but puts a townlean on both anyway...

Then there's his ABR townread, which is based off meta for the most part. But a few people have already scumread ABR because of his meta this game... yet the games he's linked have also had other players in this game in them. Something is weird about this picture.

This is the biggest thing that grabs me, and makes me compelled to the idea that he's more likely scum:

For now, as mentioned in my ABR post, consider this post a pseudo-vote on ICE because I don't have a fucking clue what the VC is at and don't want to derp-hammer.

Apparently everyone, according to the most recent vote count (and every prior one back to page two)

It's that my ABR townread mimics Talah's wording almost exactly, which is a right shitty case argument if you ask me. Like I said, I didn't even read the posts mine mimics until Talah explicitly quoted them.

I didn't say I was town reading you. I didn't say I was agreeing with people who explicitly did. I said I was agreeing that I wasn't voting you today, which seems to mirror EVERYBODY because the last VC with a vote on you was on page two. You're putting words in my mouth.

He says that he doesn't know what the VC is like.

Then says that he agreed with everyone on the most recent VC - if it's about ABR, then I don't know why or how ABR is universally townread.

Says that his ABR townread mimics Talah's but says that he didn't read Talahs posts about it until she quoted?

Then says that he didn't say he townread talah - but agreed he wouldn't vote her today given that everybody won't vote her?

I'm not understanding this exactly. And it irks me that SP seems to still defend and go back and forth with talah seeing as how he's only read specific snippets of this game which gives me a weird feeling. It doesn't feel like town.

>>>>>>>

I would say that I'm still getting a scumread on Wickan.... Titus is very scummy in my eyes, but I keep thinking on whether she could be town and we're just bitchfighting again.... I'm very wary of ABR, and I doubt SP is town

Though.. I know at least 1-2 of these people are town. Which makes me want to re-evaluate some thing here.

I'm still down for a Titus lynch atm, but SP has caught my eye...

Eck.....

Johnny, talah, RC - I'd be very happy to have a conversation with you guys atm.

[Taly]

I'm around-ish but about to walk out for a bit.
Happy to riff

<3

In your spoiler:

For now, as mentioned in my ABR post, consider this post a pseudo-vote on ICE because

I don't have a fucking clue what the VC is at

and don't want to derp-hammer.

Apparently everyone,

according to the most recent vote count

(and every prior one back to page two)

Again a direct contradiction from SP. Says he has NFI where the votecount's at so doesn't want to derp-hammer, then expresses an awareness of the current votecount.

Those quotes were different posts though. I'd almost buy that he went back to the VCs afterward (for some reason), but later he says he's "agreeing" to townread me because he was aware of the votecount at the time (the first quote you have there includes him saying he won't vote me).

OK, yeah - I'm piecing things together.

I'm just a little unsure, since he could have went to the VCs afterward... But I'd rather have him respond to my original read post on him before I do something with my vote.

And talking about that - claiming to have not read my posts to any significant degree -

why are you confident that I'm not a player worth lynching today?

Why do you know the votecounts but not what I've posted?

-As I've specified, I know where the ISO button is, and I know how to ISO the mod.

It's not hard to watch the vote count progress.

---
So he's simultaneously saying he knew nothing about the votecount when he towned me, then saying that he towned me because he knew about the votecount (and was agreeing with consensus).
That only occured to me now reading your post.

I want his will-lynch / won't lynch list.

Can you see Wickan+SP scum?

If he's lynched, and somehow flips town - I'm not exactly sure how to work off of that. (Which is where my uncertainty breeds from) So I think seeing his list would be good.

Also talah, what do you think about Titus? A lot of what I'm seeing looks scummy, but Titus and I don't play similar at all despite alignment.... What do you think about our 1v1?

And what are your thoughts on RC?

>>>>>>>>>

@Johnny

I probably missed part of this, but you've had your vote on Wickan for a good portion of this day so far

But the you changed to SP

Can you explain that?

Also, are you interested in a Titus lynch today?

[Taly]

@Johnny

Eh... Straight forward and simple...

I ISOed you a bit; I assume you're alright with a Titus lynch - but of course, prefer Wickan?

I'm trying to narrow lynch options here atm. I'm losing some faith in Titus being lynched at this point, RC isn't on - and Titus isn't really responsive to me, beyond that - part of me isn't entirely certain of her.

*The more I p-edit.... Yeah... Titus lynch probably won't happen today, and I'm losing interest in it myself versus the other two candidates.

UNVOTE: Titus

So there's Wickan and SP...

Conversely, Wickans wagon has been the top for the majority of the day - which I already said makes me nervous because both town and scumreads of mine have voted there. The thing is, Wickan hasn't really fought his wagon... and the idea that he's voted for me this long - someone who unvoted on him early - makes wonder if there's scum-scum interaction going on.

>>>>>>

ABR, whats your read on SP?

The most recent vote count before my catchup post, according to the ISO, was page 19. I didn't look to see who voted or unvoted who in those last two pages. I read 21, but none of 19 or 20 save for that vote count. For all I knew, there had been X number of ICE votes on 19/20 and mine would've been hammer.

OK.... I'm not sure why Ice would have been lynched in those pages since he was at L-3, but that's where his wagon peaked - so I see what you're saying.

Plus, I don't think you've caught up to this game? You haven't read so much...

Who would you vote today, and who would you not?

@Ice

I'm not going on Wick yet, I want to see SP a bit more before I'm sure.

[Taly]

ABR, whats your read on SP?

Not someone I'm interested in lynching in the foreseeable future.

Interesting... Why?

Do you find their contradictions come from scum or town - or see them at all?

Please noooo

Sorry RC :c It didn''t look like people were going for Titus today.

One of yourself, Wickan, or ASP.

Do you see Wickan+SP scum? Or ABR scum with any of SP or Wickan?

I mean, without Titus' influence?

Yeah, but I'm not sure which of the two I want to lynch.

It's a hard decision and I really want to hit scum D1 because I feel like if we don't I won't have momentum to lynch either the others or Titus in the future.

Yeah... We need this.

Plus, is your scumread on Titus mostly gut - or is it something else?

>>>>>>>

If Talah wants an SP lynch I'd like for her to come in here now. Otherwise, I'm starting to get a feel for Wickans lynch.

Oddly enough - I feel like me putting Wickan to L-2 would just make others flashlynch him unless he says something now.

[Taly]

We still have about 2 weeks left. Don't think pissing 14 days is going to help, if not breed apathy since people have strong reads and any decision atm would be beneficial in terms of a flip.

Wickan and SP have not been on at all today... It'd be really helpful if one or both of them came in here right now and said anything, but I'm getting more suspicious as this continues.

The thing about the Wickan wagon; is that I think he's being bussed. But my SP+Wickan thought wouldn't be very legitimate if Wickan flips scum and SP hasn't even touched the wagon, and thinks Wickan is town off of 1 post...

Both seem incredibly scummy; the fact that nobody seems to be opposing SP's lynch worries me - because - *cough* - Titus thinks Wickan is obvtown, and I don't know if anyone in this game understands that logic because I still don't. I feel like someone would have said or done something to get the attention off of SP.

It pisses me off that Titus thinks that nobody can articulate why Wickan is scum because I can build a list on that, and I feel kind of dismissed by this notion.

I just think we really need a vote at this point. I think I'd rather see SP's content more before making an exact decision - talah isn't in here right now, and I really can't go off of anything else besides what I think has been most likely scum throughout this dayphase.

VOTE: Wickan

P-Edit

I guess my vote puts Wickan to L-1?

Intent to hammer would be lovely.

[Taly]

FA... what was that vote? o_o Blegh.

I'm OK with a Titus lynch... but I don't like re-voting or unvoting after I set myself onto a decision. RC :c - Talk to me moe. I don't really want to change off of Wickan unless Titus becomes the top wagon.

I can see Titus WKing town.... But this is what gets me on that:

4) You gotta try harder. You can't mislynch ABR or Wickan with me being in the way. Haha. Sorry not sorry.

To me, this looks like she's trying to put attention on herself... This looks like a lot for scum to do. Titus must be hella confident. Figures.

But then again... Scum-Titus would know they were really town.... So she'd want a lynch on them that wouldn't involve herself...

That makes sense for her push on SP.

I don't care how Wickan flips in terms of Titus' alignment - her credit to me is below shit already and by the connections of your thought RC - SP+Titus s a real possibility. But I'm having a hard time trying to see Wickan as town...

>>>

Looking at SPs ISO.... I like that he's putting more thought into his reads, but my only wonder is if he ISOed Wickan in depth because that was something that I found suspicious of him....

Gahh.... I'd rather either lynch Wickan or Titus.

It pisses me off that Titus thinks that nobody can articulate why Wickan is scum because I can build a list on that, and I feel kind of dismissed by this notion.

Why haven't you articulated why Wickan is scum then?

Have you read ANY of my posts that aren't about you?

Oh wait - I should know, you even dismissed those type of posts as 'hate-walls'

Taly, I engage but with hate walls in this game.

Spoiler: Why Wickan Should Probably Die - Yeah, it's that long.

But here's my list on why Wickan is scum (Granted, my view on this is slightly changed over what RC said)

1)

This in itself is worth of thinking Wickan is likely scum, but I'm not done yet.

This is how I’m seeing this entire thing play out.

>Ice originally scumreads me and votes me for my vote on Wickan for being opportunistic. 69

>Wickan says that the votes on his wagon was natural. 77

>I defend and explain myself to Ice while telling him why I dislike the case.

>Ice then expands on why my unvote looked like scum trying to hide a 'mistake' 80

>Wickan still doesn't really say anything against that other than that it was weird. (His posts before 113)

>I explain myself further and rebuttal Ice's theory on why Wickan and I are scumbuddies because I unvoted him.

>Ice baits me that I'd have safely voted for him if I were scum - I didn't as I said that I could see him being town. 96

>Wickan is now saying that my original vote on him was opportunistic - after saying his wagon was natural - but then says I'm scum trying to buddy up with Ice. 113

Basically, Wickan's major contradiction about his wagon - it feels like he's jumping at me opportunistically since I've already been given enough shit about a damn vote/unvote on HIM, himself.

2)

406 - He says that I WILL dispute EVER having a townread on Ice - but apparently I'm buddying him too? Even AFTER I said I was saying that I was beginning to see Ice as town?

437 - He then calls me out since I never townread Ice?

(Uh, I guess he didn't read 344)

Then he deems my whole read progression on Ice to be disingenuous. He blatantly misreps my read on Ice, denies me - and still thinks I was trying to buddy Ice after our confrontation on

PAGE 5.

3)

Speaking of him painting my interactions with Ice as buddying...

When is it a bad time to step away from a 1v1 and reconsider your positon?

Because it saves town.

I mean, I get into a lot of 1v1s and dichotomies are corrosive as fuck especially D1 when a lot of the time, scum love to slide in some form.

Most of Wickans vote on me is because I'm scum and trying to buddy up to Ice... It makes zero sense for me to buddy Ice, furthermore - I never thought consideration was dangerous.

4)

Wickans vote has been on me for 500+ posts. He has done absolutely nothing sense then, tbh.... He comes in at intervals that make little sense for town to be input on - and he continues to assert one thing without doing much about another.

His tunnel of me is full of contradictions -

look at the previous points.....

I just can't see this coming from town.

5)

I think Wickan is being bussed, and I still think that... Granted, FA jumping off slightly diminishes that thinking because I couldn't - and still can't, but a name exactly on who could be going after Wickan as a partner. But this whole push-pull on Wickan today in terms of his wagon constantly being the top and not moving much really looks weird.... We need a decision about this, and Wickan not coming in here and speaking much of anything about it makes me think this is scum.

So there. Those are my thoughts on Wickan. I'm open to a Titus lynch provided I see more that overthrows my initial decision on believing Wickan is the better lynch of today.

And I want to look at SP more thoroughly next dayphase.

So yeah. ._.

[Taly]

Titus.... I cannot believe how horribly you just misrepped and ignored every fucking thing that I said.

Let me digress.

FA... what was that vote? o_o Blegh.

I'm OK with a Titus lynch... but I don't like re-voting or unvoting after I set myself onto a decision. RC :c - Talk to me moe. I don't really want to change off of Wickan unless Titus becomes the top wagon.

I can see Titus WKing town.... But this is what gets me on that:

4) You gotta try harder. You can't mislynch ABR or Wickan with me being in the way. Haha. Sorry not sorry.

To me, this looks like she's trying to put attention on herself... This looks like a lot for scum to do. Titus must be hella confident. Figures.

But then again... Scum-Titus would know they were really town.... So she'd want a lynch on them that wouldn't involve herself...

That makes sense for her push on SP.

I don't care how Wickan flips in terms of Titus' alignment - her credit to me is below shit already and by the connections of your thought RC - SP+Titus s a real possibility. But I'm having a hard time trying to see Wickan as town...

>>>

Looking at SPs ISO.... I like that he's putting more thought into his reads, but my only wonder is if he ISOed Wickan in depth because that was something that I found suspicious of him....

Gahh.... I'd rather either lynch Wickan or Titus.

It pisses me off that Titus thinks that nobody can articulate why Wickan is scum because I can build a list on that, and I feel kind of dismissed by this notion.

Why haven't you articulated why Wickan is scum then?

Have you read ANY of my posts that aren't about you?

Oh wait - I should know, you even dismissed those type of posts as 'hate-walls'

Taly, I engage but with hate walls in this game.

Spoiler: Why Wickan Should Probably Die - Yeah, it's that long.

But here's my list on why Wickan is scum (Granted, my view on this is slightly changed over what RC said)

1)

This in itself is worth of thinking Wickan is likely scum, but I'm not done yet.

This is how I’m seeing this entire thing play out.

>Ice originally scumreads me and votes me for my vote on Wickan for being opportunistic. 69

>Wickan says that the votes on his wagon was natural. 77

>I defend and explain myself to Ice while telling him why I dislike the case.

>Ice then expands on why my unvote looked like scum trying to hide a 'mistake' 80

>Wickan still doesn't really say anything against that other than that it was weird. (His posts before 113)

>I explain myself further and rebuttal Ice's theory on why Wickan and I are scumbuddies because I unvoted him.

>Ice baits me that I'd have safely voted for him if I were scum - I didn't as I said that I could see him being town. 96

>Wickan is now saying that my original vote on him was opportunistic - after saying his wagon was natural - but then says I'm scum trying to buddy up with Ice. 113

Basically, Wickan's major contradiction about his wagon - it feels like he's jumping at me opportunistically since I've already been given enough shit about a damn vote/unvote on HIM, himself.

2)

406 - He says that I WILL dispute EVER having a townread on Ice - but apparently I'm buddying him too? Even AFTER I said I was saying that I was beginning to see Ice as town?

437 - He then calls me out since I never townread Ice?

(Uh, I guess he didn't read 344)

Then he deems my whole read progression on Ice to be disingenuous. He blatantly misreps my read on Ice, denies me - and still thinks I was trying to buddy Ice after our confrontation on

PAGE 5.

3)

Speaking of him painting my interactions with Ice as buddying...

When is it a bad time to step away from a 1v1 and reconsider your positon?

Because it saves town.

I mean, I get into a lot of 1v1s and dichotomies are corrosive as fuck especially D1 when a lot of the time, scum love to slide in some form.

Most of Wickans vote on me is because I'm scum and trying to buddy up to Ice... It makes zero sense for me to buddy Ice, furthermore - I never thought consideration was dangerous.

4)

Wickans vote has been on me for 500+ posts. He has done absolutely nothing sense then, tbh.... He comes in at intervals that make little sense for town to be input on - and he continues to assert one thing without doing much about another.

His tunnel of me is full of contradictions -

look at the previous points.....

I just can't see this coming from town.

5)

I think Wickan is being bussed, and I still think that... Granted, FA jumping off slightly diminishes that thinking because I couldn't - and still can't, but a name exactly on who could be going after Wickan as a partner. But this whole push-pull on Wickan today in terms of his wagon constantly being the top and not moving much really looks weird.... We need a decision about this, and Wickan not coming in here and speaking much of anything about it makes me think this is scum.

So there. Those are my thoughts on Wickan. I'm open to a Titus lynch provided I see more that overthrows my initial decision on believing Wickan is the better lynch of today.

And I want to look at SP more thoroughly next dayphase.

So yeah. ._.

First part about changing wagons is rather www if I am right and Wickan is town as well (I am). She wants to keep town as the top wagon and that's the primary motivation there.

What is WWW? o_O

And I'm scumreading Wickan, because I don't understand why he's obvtown after the many things I've listed against him.

The fact that you'd rather continue to impose a townread as an excuse to ignore someone and cast suspicion on them without any continuation of a push suggests that you're avoiding something and you're also trying to divide the town by intentionally miscommunicating with others.

Then there's a shit ton of theory crafting to overreach and basically discredit. If Wickan is town, Titus is trying to make sure that the wagon doesn't include her. If Wickan is scum, Titus tries to save a buddy. Taly sheeps RC's wagon reasoning (but with totally different words) but then calls RC scum.

Back up for a minute.

WHEN have I scumread RC?

RC is one of my stronger townreads. This is misrep number 1. I'm still in awe that you paint ANY of my posts the past few pags as theory and discrediting others when I'm trying to figure out the game.

And how am I sheeping RC's wagon reasoning? I'm still a bit more confident in my vote on Wickan as it is. Keep on with your audacious lying and that may change.

Taly's defense of SP is off. There's no evidence of that. ASP posted "this is Wickan's ISO" I find it scummy is not showing depth of thought whatsoever.

What defense are you even talking about? There's been several times these past few pages where I pondered a lot on SP scum - I even questioned the basis of his Wickan ISO as if he was trying to get attention off of them being associated.

I'm still in a spiral trying to understand you Titus....

I read your posts. I also never called your walls hate walls. I said I hate walls.

Alright, I'll take this at face value.

Please use different wording other than

Taly, I engage but with hate walls in this game

Because that infers to me that you think my walls are just irrationally picking at you - and so you dismiss a lot of points I put up by this.

Your reasons for Wickan is scum are not reasons. You IioAed the thread and made many contradictions yourself. You complain about Wickan's vote being parked but ignore my highlighting the Wickan wagon has been vote parked since RVS. You deny that you and Ice have been up each other's ass the entire time but in a less transparent manner. You refuse to reconsider your reads or provide analysis on why Wickan is scum.

Wtf does IioAed mean?

So me finding contractions in Wickans pushes are no reasons for him to be scum?

But contradictions tht you fabricated in my reasoning against Wickan is scum?

Thanks for the conf-bias. It's clear to me that trying to reason with you at all is likely is not going to do anything at this point...

And what are you talking about me and Ice being on each others ass this entire time?

Do you not see that a lot of my posts point to ME thinking that YOU'RE scummy - and people besides Ice? Ice and I haven't had any major confronation since around page 7 or so...

I legitimately have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

You're twisting this so much... It's staring to show as manipulative in a very toxic way... Wow.

Okay, I'm finally back.

RadiantCowbells's post read like a desperate attempt to justify a Titus scumread.

@Titus: welcome to where I've been all game. You're welcome to join me on the Taly wagon.

Why are you JUST NOW here? Especially after the abomination of a post Titus' was?

And you prodding her to jump my wagon at this point? That just looks like a work-of-art scum maneuver.

Side-Note Titus: Try to make you fox-posting less obvious between engagements.

>>>>>>>>

FA, we can still talk about Titus and Wickan. Wickans posted but didn't address anything against him - what do you think about Titus' recent posts?

[Taly]

There has to be something against him to address.

IIoA is information over analysis.

Did you not see ANY of my post links on him?

I meant ewwww when autocorrect changed to www.

Why we shouldn't phone-post 101.

There are no contradictions in Wickan's posting.

Again. Tell me how there was no contradiction - I explicitly stated his in my post listing why he's scum - and you can ISO me, quite a few of my posts point out contradictions.

You can even ISO Wickan to see; but you probably won't since I doubt you eve ISOed him in the first place before writing him off as obvtown. If I'm wrong, then I want you to delve into Wickan and tell me how it's town.

You have contradiction. You just said RC could be scum and now claim you never scumread RC.

I don't care how Wickan flips in terms of Titus' alignment - her credit to me is below shit already and by the connections of your thought RC - SP+Titus s a real possibility. But I'm having a hard time trying to see Wickan as town...

Other than me saying I wanted RC to speak to me. There is nothing else I said to OR about RC.

IF you're referring to the possibility I put up - that was SP and YOU, yourself. I never said RC could be scum.

But that's not the point here - you deliberately ignored everything I said about Wickan and instead nitpicked a fabricated reason from my post to incriminate me instead of actually responding and trying to work this with me.

[Taly]

Today has been a rollercoaster in emotions for me, not game related. X_X

I can understand that Wickan has been busy and stuff; but the fact that he just started posting - still pushing for me - when Titus misrepped me and ABR is now switching his vote onto me - this looks dangerous; I can't see all of them being town anymore at this point because this looks like a set-up almost. I believe there's at least 1, maybe 2 scum here.

Then there's ABR's voting... Which I'm still trying to wrap my head around and I'm failing.

Titus stop derailing wagons.

VOTE: Talah

You tell Titus to stop derailing wagons... Yet your vote-change puts Wickan back to L-3...

VOTE: Taly

Was the talah vote a mistake? Tbh, I don't understand how people confuse us.

VOTE: Wickan

And you switch back to Wickan after the VCA.... Yeah, I'm not understanding the thought process here.

Wickan is ballsy if he's scum.

Best move for his survival would be to join a main wagon, not hold out.

VOTE: Taly

You ponder the possibility of Wickan being scum; yet remove him from being the top wagon to keep him alive, while jumping onto the wagon he's pushing?

Better than getting lynched D1.

Yeah... This sounds survivalistic, which doesn't look town-motivated....

But ABR, I'm willing to hear about your vote on me.

>>>>

I kind of like the exchange of Titus in questioning ABR... But I'm still wary of them both.

Wickan putting SP in the "not voting" margin without even acknowledging his ISO on him doesn't sit well with me.

>

Johnny, I feel like the Wickan wagon is dying... Which feels incredibly weird since I'm doubting that possible scum is bussing Wickan now. Especially since I put him to L-1 and now my wagon is taking a leap by people I've suspected.

Are you good with the Titus wagon now?

Her switch onto me just almost confirms my suspicions - I feel like a Titus flip would be more helpful in seeing than Wickans at this point.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Titus

[Taly]

Nope. Heavy meta reads and picking on word usage is an interesting but unconvincing way to vote, and Titus hasn't really done anything this game that looks scummy. Unless you think you have something?

A lot of her posts ring to me as scummy; and I'm not on the Titus wagon for heavy meta reads or even that much of RCs reasoning. (Tbh, I've been in several games with Titus and I can never say that there's a definitive playstyle in her meta, I'm going off what I think is scum here.)

My original push on Titus; I listed and picked apart why I had problems with her responses.

I'm really distrustful of the positioning on the wagons here. I put Wickan to L-1, he gets unvoted, I respond to Titus who said that nobody could articulate Wickan-scum, I did - she misrepped me and still hasn't even replied to me on my responses to her 'accusation' and now my wagon is actually going places with really unexplained votes.

This is all after I think thoroughly on the possibilities of Wickan, SP, and Titus being scum and me saying of how I don't entirely trust the Wickan wagon because it has both scum and townreads I hold on i.

None of the interactions with me here feel genuine, if anything - it feels like this was planned.

Wickans wagon is being unvoted a lot; are you still content on staying there? You haven't said a lot on why Wickan is scum himself.

[Taly]

Sigh... People I've played with before are throwing hands onto each other and people are throwing out associatives - and it's partially amongst some of my own townreads.

I cannot ratify all of this.

I feel like I'm only content with Wickan or Titus today, and my vote is becoming dependent on whos getting the most votes because it doesn't matter how they flip at this point, either way they'll get a huge amount of info. and I still believe their scum.

talah, I don't know what makes you townread Titus. I don't know why Johnny doesn't see anything scummy. A lot of her performance doesn't look like town to me.

When I compare that to Wickan and ABR; I do see that Wickan and ABR have actually done things that would be extremely scummy, especially Wickan. Though, nobody seems content with ABR lynch today, RC and FA aren't going to move from their Titus tunnel...

And every vote and scumread I do, I'm either being misrepped and painted as scum, or told that I'm voting town.

And whenever I voted Wickan to get a consensus so our town impass would finally fall, people unvote; go to other wagons, and now I'm being pushed with literally NO engagement so far on why.

^^^^^

This is my thought process in 10 minutes. I would like someone to work with me on that.

[Taly]

@Mod, my vote is currently on Titus.

RC and FA aren't going to move from their Titus tunnel

false. I said I'm scum reading both wickan and titus. I'm really far behind in this game. I need to update myself.

I will catch up tomorrow because I have a very hard exam tomorrow.

Well, it doesn't look like RC will at this point.

Looking forward to your catch-up post.

And whenever I voted Wickan to get a consensus so our town impass would finally fall, people unvote; go to other wagons, and now I'm being pushed with literally NO engagement so far on why.

This is what it's like trying to lynch scum when scum doesn't want to bus, especially on D1.

This is why it took awhile for me to re-vote Wickan after support for the Titus lynch took a nosedive for 2 seconds.

It also - almost confirms - that someone was bussing Wickan. That person is now probably on my wagon.

I'm happy where my vote is. I'm happy sitting here until the time elapses. Do something, or don't. The choice is yours.

Yay, so you'll tunnel AND provide little to nothing else even though you've yet to explain why I'm scum, or even consider it from what I'm seeing.

What happened to your read on Ice anyway, ABR?

Taly is the scummiest player to me right now. I'll re-evaluate Ice after the flip.

So I came from 'can be scum' to 'scummiest player' for voting Wickan to L-1, calling out Titus for misrepping me, and then calling out the fact that most likely scum-group so far in this game just switched onto my wagon for voting their 'little-explained townread'?

Yeah. I'm totally scum.

Join us Talah. Then all my major townreads can be on the same wagon.

'Major townreads'?

So... You finally have more than like... 2?

Yeah, this doesn't look genuine.

Ice, help me vote Titus.

RC, please work something out with Johnny or Ice here.

Otherwise, we're not going to get a consensus lynch between town.

And yes, I'm prodding Johnny to do the same to RC in vice versa.

[Taly]

Yay, so you'll tunnel AND provide little to nothing else even though you've yet to explain why I'm scum, or even consider it from what I'm seeing.

I will explain it when I decide to. Not on your time.

Well, until you DO decide to actually say anything to the town for once and not dismiss current discussion -

I'll go by my own time and think what I believe is the most likely reason for your push on me - which is leaning on scum-motivated.

But I'm still all ears to hear your reason for pushing me.

Btw, you and the theme that we have "all the time in the world" to make a decision only makes me think that you're pushing for an agenda.

Especially since you derailed a wagon everyone seemed to believe was scum, and darted after a vote on me for initiating that wagon to L-1 - for that persons 'survival'

I'm not compromising. I can't specify why, but it has something to do with the rate of me being N1ed.

Not even for ABR?

[Taly]

Especially since you derailed a wagon everyone seemed to believe was scum, and darted after a vote on me for initiating that wagon to L-1 - for that persons 'survival'

If you think I unvoted Wickan because I'm scum with him, why are you voting Titus now?

A Few Things

1)

I do have reasons in my mind that suggest you tell me you guys are scum, but I'm not 100% tbh; that's why my vote has moved frequently; hence why part of my reason for voting Wickan to L-1 was to get consensus since his wagon wasn't dying at that point, and several people - myself included, believed that he was the most scummy player and I still hold a scumread on him.

2)

There is no way of knowing whether we have 2 or 3 scum in this game; is it a negative that I think 3 people could be scum?

3)

I already explained and referenced several times why in 692 and 694 that Titus' post on me was a big misrep 687, and only to what I can assume was to incriminate me as scum when I voted for Wickan - and since she - nor anybody who has pushed me, has looked at those posts in depth, really puts a big question mark over my head - and the dismissive behavior rings nothing less but scum trying to set-up a mislynch to me.

4)

Titus was the first person to initially gut townread you, and shit all over Wickans wagon - discrediting it while doing little to push any of her own. The fact that you and Titus jumped on my wagon after I unvoted Wickan to L-1 - then he was unvoted - tells me that I'm probably right about one of my theories involving scum between you 3 in some form.

5)

Furthermore, I'm not entirely confirmed on someone having bussed Wickan; but I think it's a major possibility. I'm pursuing anything with my vote that's most likely going to lynch scum or provide an abundant amount of information in helping finding them, or the rest. I'm not townreading the people I've voted for so far.

Now, I'm glad that someone's actually asking me questions...

But I'd like some explanation from your side at some point...

Not even for ABR?

Definitely not.

ABR towned up the slot a metric ton since I was scumreading him. He's not one of my major lynch interests.

I want Titus and I want her badly.

[Taly]

You're voting Titus too, I thought.

What's your comment?

I am voting Titus, and I still want her lynch too.

I just see that Johnny and people on Wickans wagon have a very similar feeling about him as you do Titus from what it seems.

I feel like nothing is really getting done unless someone does something, and I'm not finding Wickan and ABR any much townier than I did 2-3 pages ago - which was not town at all. Though I wonder if I should reconsider my ABR read, but I don't believe he's in the lynchpool today.

[Taly]

Says the guy not voting Titus.

She doesn't flip town.

She flips scum.

RC... you can do better than this.

Half the reason I don't want Titus dead is because if she flips town what the fuck was the point

That could either validate part of RC's tunnel theory on Titus who is scum WKing town - or remove it as a possibility.

But... I feel like this could also happen if we lynch Wickan, which I'm leaning towards since RC is just telling people to sheep him...

There's no reason this Wick wagon shouldn't be happening. It has enough stated support.

Maybe cuz it's scum driven? You think of that?

Most likely scum stopped driving it the first time I put it to L-1, and then the unvotes occurred - and then I got wagoned for literally no stated reason.

Like duh.

>>>>>

@Mod.... My vote is on Titu-

....

You know what, I'm just going to make this legal.

UNVOTE: Titus
VOTE: Wickan

Now this is at L-1 ---- Unless SP is somehow working solely based off of my idea of the theory of him and Wickan being scum - and working against it - which is only something I want to look at post-flip, then I'm feeling confident in the wagon right now.

[Taly]

oookay!
so
taly what motives you for all these fast changes? it seems you just want a lynch on wickan - titus ?

Yeah, I do want a lynch on Wickan or Titus today --

(not exactly so much on Wickan, but I'll get to that in a minute.)

. I've given my thoughts on why they're both scum in my eyes, and I've listened to others' ideas on why they aren't, and why they are - and I feel as if bringing up other people as lynch candidates at this point are just going to bring more of wall between town on deciding who to lynch. IE, a flip on one of these two is useful.

Granted, Wickan's claim does make me second guess my scumread on him; I'll get to that in a minute, but I may reconsider some of my reads very soon.

Also, with my posts these past few pages; I toyed around with several ideas of possible scum and why; peoples reaction to my vote on Wickan - or at least, peoples unexplained push on me afterward FOR wickan - validated a lot of my suspicions of people I generally scumread. Since people are divided on the lynch candidate today, my quick changes are basically trying to get info., be open with people, and pushing for what I think is the best option overall as discussion progresses.

Furthermore; I don't really understand your comment of me 'needing to try more' - I've stated reasons, gave possible ideas and theories, pushed people I thought were scum multiple times, even listed some of my uncertainties, and I'm making an effort trying to get people to respond to them.

I don't know what you're asking of me.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Wickan claimed Hider? In my like... 8-10 games ever, - I've been in like 2-3 mini normals - which isn't very credible but I haven't seen this role before...

OK, I'm re-reading the past 2 pages now... I'm good with creating a pool, I feel like SP, ABR, and/or RC/Titus should be in the group of people.

I'm not entirely sold on the claim atm; I feel like we could have avoided a NK if Wickan claimed something like cop. (Which is a gambit, but that could have potentially led to a scum lynch now and no town death and we'll have conf-town later) I'm not sure what Wickans intentions were to claim a role like that now other than to not be lynched, and to not be seen as an NK target, which is WIFOM-y as hell because if he's scum fake-claiming, then town is in a tough-ass position.

But the thing here is, I can also see town doing this for the exact same reasons...

In any case, this looks weird.

>>>>

@Mod, didn't Johnny unvote Wickan?

[Taly]

ASP, ABR, ICE

That should be the hider pool.

That's fair... I can't really disagree with that.

To be clear, Talah is not a lurker both both sides appear to townread her.

Reason 1# why talah is my most paranoid townread.

>>>

I rarely get NKed; but when I do - it's extremely early in game.

I get wagoned a lot, especially when I'm town. But a lot of my wagons are scum-led throughout my games...

Meh.... It feels dumb to push for a Titus lynch now and the pool is a valid strategy, so lynching Wickan isn't the best option right now.

UNVOTE:

The thing here is - I want to vote Bells, because of reasons similar to Johnny. But then I want to vote SP because... I've yet to have a 'aha' moment on his alignment, and I don't see anything majorly towny at this point; it's just suspicion.

But wait - why are we lynching SP if he's in the pool for Wickan to hide behind - but not RC?

Did I misread?

[Taly]

But then I want to vote SP because... I've yet to have a 'aha' moment on his alignment, and I don't see anything majorly towny at this point; it's just suspicion.

Do it.

Can we stop with this "sheep me" shit that 1/3 of this playerlist loves doing? This is why I'm not keen on RC the past few pages.

I'd like my questions answered for once.

I think RC should go in the pool though instead of Talah.

So that's why SP's being wagoned as well?

P-Edit

So ABR unvotes.

.....I'm confused as fuck.....

[Taly]

Can we stop with this "sheep me" shit that 1/3 of this playerlist loves doing? This is why I'm not keen on RC the past few pages.

I'd like my questions answered for once.

Keen on RC?

Just because I've beaten you all as scum at least once doesn't mean that we're autolynching me because you're afraid you can't read me.

This is sheer lunacy.

OK... I don't remember a game where you were scum and I wasn't... I do remember a game where we were both scum; and I'm torn on you because the majority of your posts come across as genuine.

What I don't get is; Nobody is answering my questions... Whenever I ask something, whenever I say I don't understand something... There's only - maybe 2 or 3 people who has actually engaged with me in coherent terms thus far in this game. Then votes fly everywhere, and nobody seems willing to communicate beyond going after someone.

Am I fucking insane for trying to figure out this game before I make my own actions?

Sigh... This is so damn frustrating.

[Taly]

Careful with that persecution complex baby, you doing want to live a life of perceived slights

What do you want to know Taly?

Are you referring to the persecution part to me? What do you mean exactly? (I'm not offended or anything)

This is what I want to know:

1)

Is the 3-pool the people the hider is going to hide behind? If so, why is SP wagoned, if not - why is RC not wagoned?

I'm not 100% sure if I grasp this concept.

2)

This is an ABR question... But I'm still trying to decipher his votes for the past several pages, and now his unvote - which I can see because of him wanting SP and Ice to respond, but I'm not seeing a major connection?

ABR has literally not answered most of anything I've asked him.

3)

If RC is so adamant on Titus... I want to hear more about them on Titus... There's just so much questioning here - a lot of push-pull on these two in terms of reads and pushes...

4)

More of question to Wickan - why didn't you crumb or do anything about it?

[Taly]

1) Yes. We can wagon who we want. We just have a replacement if ASP is lynched. Right now its Talah.

Rest aren't for me.

OK, I'm understanding this now.

4) I've been under heavy suspicion from the beginning. I did not think that a crumb would help my credibility in the slightest. And I'm not sure what else you would've wanted me to do about it.

I just wanted to know your thought process; it sounds close to home, tbh.

Are you referring to the persecution part to me? What do you mean exactly? (I'm not offended or anything)

Yes. People skim, it happens. It's not meant as an insult to you, you'll notice it happens with anyone who makes real big posts (Frozen's catch-up is a good example) so just work on being more succinct. I get responses and I don't even storm shit right half the time

I'm not insulted or anything.

Yeah, I can get wordy and it's sometimes difficult get across some message. Meh, this usually happens when I'm not understanding something when I think it should be obvious. (And when I partially feel like I'm being persecuted myself)

I'm calm now.

1)

Is the 3-pool the people the hider is going to hide behind? If so, why is SP wagoned, if not - why is RC not wagoned?

I'm not 100% sure if I grasp this concept.

There's a pool of three people Wick will hide behind. He chooses one of those to hide behind, tells us which of the three the next day if he lives. This cuts the chances of scum getting the double kill to 1/3 and gives us a small lynch pool if he dies because he targeted scum.

That pool is currently the people closest to getting lynched besides Wick, so Asp is currently in it. Bells (or Talah? Haven't finished arguing) will replace Aspy if we lynch him

P-edit: ANSWERS

Ah, I see now.

Also Wick pulling out a 'hiding' joke from 400 posts ago is plenty crumb enough for me, unless you want to tell me he was planning his fake claim 20 pages ago?

Can you link the post?

If so, why is SP wagoned, if not - why is RC not wagoned?

Why the fuck would RC GET wagoned.

Why wouldn't RC get wagoned?

[Taly]

I spent this entire day trying to get people to lynch Titus and now you're trying to lynch me because me trying to lynch her is apparently not producing content.

New flash: not until she's dead will you have me committed to content form that's not about her.

You want to scumread me, you want to lynch me, be my guest. I caught scum, I'm done now.

1)

I didn't say I'm scumreading you.

2)

I didn't say I wanted to lynch you.

3)

I'm still deciphering between you and Titus because I'm thinking about my reads more, and even though I haven't liked a lot of Titus' posts; I don't think their approach is bad in terms of the hider pool. Conversely - if you really want a Titus lynch to go through, then why not say anything about what she's posting now?

UNVOTE:
Okay, so the hider is a thing.

I think this hider pool idea is rather dumb. Our plan needs to be to have him target one of the most suspicious players, the ones who haven't contributed as much and don't appear to. It leads to three scenarios:
1) target is scum, Wickan dies, and scum gets two deaths in exchange for a guaranteed lynch.
2) target is town, scum kills target, but get two less-than-stellar kills instead.
3) target is town, and scum targets someone else, allowing for a presumably confirmed townie pair in the game and drastically narrows down the suspect pool for D2.

ANY WAY we look at it, worst case scenario is 7p tomorrow without a confirmed scum but much greater opportunity to figure the scum team out. Better possibilities, only one death plus two confirmed townies, or even a confirmed scum, and assuming target is town, it creates a tough decision for scum to deal with.

Alternatively, what do we get from the three-player hider pool? It creates WIFOM for scum, but WIFOM for town the following day if he dies because we can't be sure if he targeted town and died due to the scum kill or targeted scum. A definite target at least gives us information.

Since I was asked, to sum it up, I'm not 100% sure in Wickan's claim, but it bought him a day.
Not Lynching: Johnny, ABR, Wickan
Give me a case and it's possible: ICE, RC, Talah, Titus (though those last two will need to be damn good cases)
Potentially Scum (would lynch): Taly, FA

I've been reading since page 21, and I think I've caught on with a Johnny tell. Wickan I won't lynch due to his claim, and I've been confident in my ABR townread since I ISO'd him around page 21, and I haven't seen anything to change that.

P-edit: I might be willing to lynch RC based off of that post about 20 minutes ago. This tunnel is ridiculous.

So...

You aren't sure about Wickan's claim, but you think the hider pool is dumb...

You put Wickan from being 'scum lean' to 'not lynching' because of his claim...

But you list the alternative to the hider pool being harmful to scum

What information do you think comes from trying to have a definitive target?

Weak vote.

VOTE: Taly

This is the vote I'm most confident in.

Speaking of weak votes...

Last interaction I had concerning you was that I said I wasn't getting any answers or engagements, and now I'm re-voted.

With all regards I don't buy hider claim. I checked lots of normal games Not even 1 contain that role.

I'm willing to lynch titus right now. this might clear up lots of things

VOTE: Titus

and I think we must send Wickon on ASP

Your vote was already on Titus.

What do you think of RC the past page or 2?

I could agree with Wickan hiding behind ASP - the only 2 townreads I'm becoming confident about is Johnny and Ice. Then there's you, and talah who I townread to a smaller extent; but wouldn't vote or lynch today.

[Taly]

yeah I found that out after that vote

RC seems tunneling hard. I believe its his town. maybe I'm wrong but its my little meta read on him.

Not really.

In my scum game with RC (also the one Johnny has referenced to) - RC tunneled me page 2 all the way to page 30 where I finally got lynched/bussed and scum won since we confused the fuck out of town.

Tunneling is something you'd see from RC in general - the thing that I'm trying to figure out - is if his posts, and mentality to this game is town of him, or scum of him.

We vote out Taly.

Still waiting for an explanation....

Glad you're ignoring me after I've engaged with you, though.

>>>>

Titus is slowly falling off of my scumreads.

Where is talah?

P-Edit

Last interaction I had concerning you was that I said I wasn't getting any answers or engagements, and now I'm re-voted.

I've learned to not get into one on one discussions with wordy players in the habit of posting walls. Replying to you isn't worth it.

I need to sign off now. My blood pressure is rising.

I can't tell if you're insulting me, or if I just feel offended by how thoroughly you're dismissing me - I rarely see town do this, and this behavior racks up town losses. Especially since you're

wrong,

and you probably don't want me to point that out.

[Taly]

I don't argue with scum. My job is to convince everyone else to vote you, not to win a battle of words with you and pat myself on the back.

Yeah, what are you going to do when I flip town?

Again, you're assuming, dismissing, and saying whatever you can to lynch someone instead of contributing to discussion and figuring out the game.

And no; I don't engage walls with people to "win" - I do so to get people to SEE my beliefs and thinking on the game at hand.

You not questioning, responding appropriately, or just pushing someone for no stated reason or to understand who you're scumreading - tells me that you either don't care - likely scum - or are way too confident, which can be town - but really dangerous either way.

Also, the fact that you think this is a "battle of words" instead of communicating tells me your combative mindset to this game, which doesn't look town mindset.

[Taly]

You have one vote on you and you're completely freaking out as if you're getting lynched, already talking about your flip and threatening me. The way you're defensive and blowing my single vote on you out of proportion is exactly what I anticipated from your behavior. You're finished in this town.

1)

Yeah, I do have 1 vote. Except... I had 3, and for little reasoning stated after I pushed someone to L-1 who I thought was most likely scum. You never replied to my answers to you, and you never answered me when I questioned you.

2)

Who said I was freaking out? The only thing I got frustrated with was you dismissing me - the fact that you'd rather point fingers when someone goes after your push doesn't sit well with me. Especially since you're not providing reasons, you claim that you're trying to get people on the wagon, yet you seem as if your own vote isn't that big.

3)

"Threaten you?" Um.... What did I say that was a threat, at all?.... Again, you're acting as if I'm pinning you against the wall but then you write me off as scum and don't even bother trying to say anything.

4)

You anticipated this behavior? Nice to know you have an agenda, since it's void of all explanation or any other thought besides lynching someone from what I see - it looks sketchy as fuck.

5)

Since when is defensiveness at all as scum-tell? You think town should just sit around and guess whether or not a push on them is scum or town driven?

How am I being defensive when I'm trying to get you to actually reason with me?

6)

"You're finished in this town." Oh... So, that's not you saying that you're trying to lynch me? Then why do you go back and say I'm freaking out when I'm pointing out the issues with your approach to your push?

Yeah. You cut off trying to reason, you still push my lynch anyway, but then you tell me I'm threatening you, freaking out, and blowing this out of proportion.

Your 'simple vote' doesn't mean much to me.

>>>>>

Who's next in line after SP?

[Taly]

You guys can do that one without me. I can't believe Taly's scum game is this radically different from the last time I saw it.

You said this a lot. Which game?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=63741 >> I know I linked this earlier this game, probably around post 400 or something.

He means this. My only game as mafia ever, and on this site.

(I was SK once, but you were in that game Titus. I NKed you Titus, after not getting into shit with ANYONE.)

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=60966 >> Not really relevant, but this is my SK game too.

>>>>

Yeah, I'm inactive as fuck as scum; otherwise, I'm very 'calculated' with votes and set-up.

[Taly]

Dude after he put Wickan at L-1, all he's done is complain about me and make useless comments like "why wouldn't you be scum RC?"

He's basically given up after Wickan didn't happen.

This is scum.

Misrep and exaggeration.

I put Wickan to L-1 to progress the game and to either get information to re-think my reads, or to validate them.

Also, I never said "why wouldn't you be scum RC"

I said "why wouldn't you be wagoned" - I was prompting him to provide reasons against him already instead of shutting down, firing at people, and saying to either "lynch me or titus" which is not only a dichotomy that's bad enough, the approach was seriously unhelpful.

Furthermore, that's not all I've done. I've tried to get you to respond to me and give your reasons, I've even questioned several people to get a better idea of the gamestate and to clarify what I was confused about, and I'm still continuing with my thoughts, questions, and assertions while considering which wagon should be pursued.

If I gave up, then why would I bother trying to speak to you if you've ignored me?

[Taly]

Dude after he put Wickan at L-1, all he's done is complain about me and make useless comments like "why wouldn't you be scum RC?"

He's basically given up after Wickan didn't happen.

This is scum.

Misrep and exaggeration.

I put Wickan to L-1 to progress the game and to either get information to re-think my reads, or to validate them.

Also, I never said "why wouldn't you be scum RC"

I said "why wouldn't you be wagoned" - I was prompting him to provide reasons against him already instead of shutting down, firing at people, and saying to either "lynch me or titus" which is not only a dichotomy that's bad enough, the approach was seriously unhelpful.

Furthermore, that's not all I've done. I've tried to get you to respond to me and give your reasons, I've even questioned several people to get a better idea of the gamestate and to clarify what I was confused about, and I'm still continuing with my thoughts, questions, and assertions while considering which wagon should be pursued.

If I gave up, then why would I bother trying to speak to you if you've ignored me?

[Taly]

What the fuck is up with these double posts? Isn't there a barrier for this?

[Taly]

I said "why wouldn't you be wagoned" - I was prompting him to provide reasons against him already instead of shutting down, firing at people, and saying to either "lynch me or titus" which is not only a dichotomy that's bad enough, the approach was seriously unhelpful.

And yet you vote for Titus.

Your play unravels the moment the Wickan wagon dissipated. That's why I'm voting you.

That is bull, I can't tell if you're scum trying to push my mislynch or town whose so confident on me being scum that you are avoiding anything I say.

ISO me. 790 - Was when I unvoted Titus to put Wickan to L-1.

872 - I unvoted Wickan.

I've done nothing with my vote since.

In fact, if you actually read my damn walls - you'd know that I'm leaning on not-voting to lynch Titus right now.

This is what I'm talking about over people not listening, assuming, and dismissing.

[Taly]

.......

Just 1 click, ABR. You'll see that my vote is not on Titus, and it hasn't gone on Titus since I dropped Wickan.

I mean as much as you could call anything he's doing a 'push' those are similar I guess. Content wise there's way more 'WHY ISN'T ANYONE LISTENING TO ME' this game which strikes me as something someone who hides as scum would avoid doing

He doesn't hide as scum though. As town, he's much more dispassionate.

Yeah, I do kind of hide as scum.

If you read my game when I was mafia with RC; I even went VLA when I got suspected, I would say that I'd make a post on something, and then I wouldn't even say anything about it later.

And Titus, you know very well how I can be when I'm town and pushed, I can get passionate.

[Taly]

ABR... I have more games where town lost in scenarios I was mislynched

Plus if I were scum, why would I give a fuck about trying to communicate with you at this point?

Nothing I'm saying is getting to you, and tbh; you sound somewhat irrational at this point - I'm not trying to be insulting or anything, but you are cutting off all ability of reasoning I can have with you.

I'm tired of defending myself while trying to get my thinking through your head. You twist, ignore, and assume.

Nothing is changing anything here except my lack of ability in seeing you as town regardless of association.

[Taly]

I welcome you to link this because I don't know what you're referring to, and I'm a little upset that this was back in 2008... and I'm now feeling obligated to know something that was from 7 years ago?

In any case, this engagement is bordering on annoyingly useless if not corrosive; I have things in real life to attend to right now and I'm going to go think about my reads.

ABR, I'm sorry if I infuriated you; :/ I'm just wanting to be listened to and I want to see more than just this unexplained push and scumpainting of anything I do at this point.

[Taly]

Ice's last post looks mehh.....

40 pages in...still no lynch...I see nothing worth sheeping on the ABR vs. Taly 1v1.

Are you looking for something specific when you say there's 'nothing worth'?

You haven't put up a lot of reasoning against Titus the past few pages...

I don't see the point of wagonning both Taly and Titus - neither of whom I want to lynch today.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree that I've found a way to barely exist - I actually just came out of a couple of games directly prior to this and usually that'd be burnout for me. So I'm going to be shamelessly lurking from time to time (and especially at times when I'm either busy IRL, demotivated, or simply as with this game - kind of frustrated that we're talking around in circles and stubborning up rather than trying to compromise on lynches.

Ehhh... We'd like to see more from you - that's the thing, especially since nobody's pushed on you since the last 20 or so posts other than RVS.

Titus, I think you mentioned this. In that case the pool is better.

On the other hand there's also a possibility we have another investigative role like watcher which could directly watch who visited a target.
In that case a single target would be better. If that's going to happen I'll put my hand up.

Anyway I'm kind of just waiting to see what happens here because my preferred lynch right now is still ASP.

Johnny, Titus, Taly, if you want to float compromises given other players' stated preferences I'm up for it.

Frozen, Ice, Wickan - I'm interested to know if you're also willing to come to some sort of middle ground here too.

ABR I'm not particularly inclined to listen to any more since he's just randomly voting presumably for some kind of reaction.
RC just wants to tunnel Titus apparently. And not in a good, lots of input and information way, so probably no point asking for anything on compromise (feel free though)
ASP I mean I'll *take* input on any compromise you might suggest but I'm having a difficult time seeing you as town.

I think a compromise has been good for about the past 15-20 pages, tbh. I'm fine with doing the popcorn thing, it also gives good information post-flip.

But talah, you say you're not inclined to listen to ABR - do you have a read on him, even if his posts are random?

Should I?

Yeah K.

UNVOTE: A Simple Plan
VOTE: talah

Self-vote, talah? Really.... o_o

>>>

Won't lynch:

Wickan

[4] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly}

Jonnhy

[3] {Titus, talah, Taly}

ABR

[1] {Titus}

talah

[1] {Titus}

Titus

[3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}

Taly

[2] {talah, Johnny}

>>>>Whoops, Taly isn't letting RC and FA miss out on the fun.

Place your name if you could lynch there.

RC

[0]

FA

[0]

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

Ice

[1] {Titus}

ASP

[3] {talah, Johnny, Taly]

>>>>>

ASP is the only person I haven't had a definitive read on, and I previously thought about him as scum.

I am not willing to vote or lynch Ice today on the fact that he seems to have stable reads on the same people he thought were scum after Wickans claim, I can't pull a lot from this - and I still get the vibe that he's town.

Concerning RC, his attitude toward the game seems like an upset town; I can understand talahs self-vote being scum, but I think she may have done that in our previous game; not sure, but I don't have a good feeling on it, but the jump makes me wonder about his tunnel on Titus - since he's nos jumped off of Titus?

Oddly enough, this feels like town-RC. If he were scum, I don't think he'd pull off Titus just like that - it doesn't feel like he's lining up lynches.

[Taly]

Back from school; I did some research on my game with talah, a player self-voted as town and it almost fucked us all over: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=60902 - we were both town.

ISOed her in that game and found this:

Don't self-vote as town ever, no matter how tempting it might be.

>For anyone who wants to say I fabricated this; ISO her yourself and read the first part of post 1833. page 74. http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=1825

This is stretchy, but meta and instinct tell me that talah's self-vote wasn't coming from a town mindset - and tbh, I never read self-votes as town in the first place.

So it's well after bedtime, so night.

But I'm really intrigued that either of you see my self-vote given my will-vote won't vote as a "fuck you have at it lol". So anyway if you want to grab that wagon go for it.

Incidentally Taly don't add shit to the survey. Current problem is we have too much diversity. I want won't vote and one single vote. TIA.

Aside from that^^ and meta contradictions, the fact that talah then says that it's 'intriguing' that we recognized and then prods us to a wagon doesn't sit well with me.

And if her self-vote wasn't meant for anything much at all compared to the wagon she jumped off of for no reason; then why didn't she bring it back the post after or explain it? It looks like an agenda was there.

Trusting some people on the wagon more, and the only major posting talah has done in this game was in the first few pages, she hasn't been pushed much at all and I feel like she's also gone under the radar. The intervals she posts about doesn't make since with the content at hand.

(Basically her posting 2-3 days apart between her engagements - ever since December 4th, which was not even a week until after the game began. Which would make sense from scum not wanting to do much when the chat was cut off 3 days in.)

VOTE: talah

This is putting talah to L-1 including her own vote. I doubt she'll keep it on at this point, but I'd like any sort of intent to hammer at this point before a lynch occurs if another vote is put on if talah unvotes.

I want to see this flip, I'm becoming increasingly sure of talah being scum.

Won't lynch:

Wickan [5] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly,Frozen}
Jonnhy [4] {Titus, talah, Taly,Frozen}
ABR [1] {Titus}
talah [1] {Titus}
Titus [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}
Taly [2] {talah, Johnny}
RC [1] {Frozen}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

talah [1] {Frozen}
Ice [1] {Titus}
ASP [3] {talah, Johnny, Taly}

you mean this list ^ ?

Don't think the list is entirely necessary at this point, I'm getting an "ewww" vibe that talah only put Ice and SP as options for a preferred lynch.

Namely, my vote signifies that I don't want an SP lynch as opposed to a talah here.

Jesus wtf is this game. Every day it gets harder and harder to read this and care about it at all. I've played entire games shorter than this 1 day.

I'm not voting talah (wtf is this wagon out of nowhere), Johnny, I'm still pretty damn confident Wickan is scum but I guess that lynch isn't happening today.

Unvote, Vote A Simple Plan

. Not gonna see talah lynched today, Titus seems to not be happening. If Johnny convinces me to move my vote I will but

just fucking lynch someone

this is so dumb.

Yeah.... Wickan should either hide behind you or SP tonight.... (Assuming that the claim is true, which feels dismissive to not make a plan revolving around it yet.)

You go on and on about "just fucking lynching someone," but then you don't see talah being lynched, say you don't want your vote there, and then say that the wagon came out of nowhere... And you say that Johnny should convince you to move YOUR vote.

This is deteriorating my townread on you. Fast.

[Taly]

Oh, FA. I'm an ENFP, too.

I don't have enough time to reply to every single thing in the morning, so if something is desired to be addressed then question me after I create this post and will have a weekend after school to engage.

Also, talah's unvote right before her large posts come in responding to arguments appears as if she had realized she had done something wrong. It doesn't make sense, since she didn't explain it then.

[...snip...]
Pre-edit:
Seriously - never self-

vote

hammer. I TRULY understand how frustrating it can be. I've done it before (well not hammered but voted).
Even if you have to lurk because you're frustrated it helps to shape the game and gives town info.
I really enjoyed your accesisibility as I mentioned and you were very reasonable - I just didnt' understand your change off Taly dismissing your own arguments and wanted to know why that changed onto ChriVi, and I think we could have discussed that better - as much my fault as anything.

So this was the same quote (which you quoted) where I told Netherspite to never self-vote (we didn't get along well in that game at all).
Thing is the guy self-hammered. Also he was tilting and didn't take time to blow off some steam elsewhere or just call himself a v/la or lurk or something.

This is a completely different scenario.

RC's taken a couple of passes at me and when I've pushed back on him he's become increasingly aggro with scumreading me. Now I'm sorry but I don't think a the best reaction from town's to being questioned or poked (especially in response to your own push) is to scumread, vote and leave it at that.

So I decided I'd give him some help with wagonning me. Maybe he'd push a case, maybe I'd become a juicy target. Who knows. But I've done this before as town in at least a couple of games. So I guess my blanket statement about not self-voting is - well circumstantial (as it related to Netherspite in that game) and a bit pie-in-the-sky. Sometimes I just find it quite difficult to keep everything super-optimal and serious especially when games drag out on Day 1 like this. So I take a sidetrack or two.

Besides which:

I voted you because wagons are good and I didn't care to push either of Taly or Titus.

Wagons

are

good. From my sometimes atypical perspective - even on myself.

[...snip...]
But I'm really intrigued that either of you see my self-vote given my will-vote won't vote as a "fuck you have at it lol". So anyway if you want to grab that wagon go for it.
[...snip...]

Aside from that^^ and meta contradictions, the fact that talah then

says that it's 'intriguing' that we recognized

and then prods us to a wagon doesn't sit well with me.

I've snipped out the couple of dross lines you're not referring to here.
I'm having trouble understanding what you're getting at here, especially the part I've bolded above.
It doesn't seem to line up as a problem with what I actually said, or you're missing some part of the point you meant to type.

Also the self-vote was the

second vote on the wagon

. I literally created the wagon.

You mean... A wagon on yourself? Apparently that's good? Couldn't you have just asked questions?

Don't try to explain the context; that still doesn't explain you, or remove my thinking about your self-vote and your general posting. Why would you argue that your vote on yourself was helpful?

[Do you think that doesn't line up with me having some purpose for it?
Also this is like deja-vu from the initial Frozen wagon except I'm doing it to myself. In case you've forgotten.

Bad wording palooza. So I'm forgetting something?

Please tell me how this scenario aligns with your early push on FA.

[Difference here is I *know* I'm town and so do scum, so it's a legitimate temptation with 2 votes outside of RVS imo.
Especially where other players try to characterise this kind of self-vote as scummy in its own right.

I mean... You were town the last game... I don't understand what you're getting at here.

And if her self-vote wasn't meant for anything much at all compared to the wagon she jumped off of for no reason; then why didn't she bring it back the post after or explain it? It looks like an agenda was there.

You don't lay down a reaction test and then say next post "NAHH GUISE JSUT CHECKING LOL UNVOTE". Do you understand why not?
So what's your actual problem with my self-vote? We have a wagon on me now which probably has 2 scum on it.

How do you know there are 2 scum on the wagon? Or scum at all?

And if your self-vote/unvote was a reaction test, then why didn't you say anything else about it, especially before you removed the vote?

This feels like you're either withholding information on what you learned from the 'reaction self-vote', or you're trying to find a way to make your vote seem as if it held some ground in terms of wagons.

Trusting some people on the wagon more, and the only major posting talah has done in this game was in the first few pages, she hasn't been pushed much at all and I feel like she's also gone under the radar. The intervals she posts about doesn't make since with the content at hand.

(Basically her posting 2-3 days apart between her engagements - ever since December 4th, which was not even a week until after the game began. Which would make sense from scum not wanting to do much when the chat was cut off 3 days in.)

This is a really bad argument and the reason is a PM I sent you back before joining the queue for this game regarding what I intended to do to allow myself to play more games.
Also:

Spoiler:

On lurking and you trying to say me not posting for 13 hours (or whatever, I might not post for 2 days or longer and prod-dodge, it's not the point) - your ISO now consists of 10 posts, most of them useless except as far as making excuses and defending yourself. Fully half of them have arrived in the last 24 hours and have been in response to me attacking you. Don't you think that's a good thing that I've motivated you enough to - actually post?

Dodgin'.

Sorry, been pretty crook the last couple of days.

I'm just going to go ahead and disagree that I've found a way to barely exist - I actually just came out of a couple of games directly prior to this and usually that'd be burnout for me. So I'm going to be shamelessly lurking from time to time (and especially at times when I'm either busy IRL, demotivated, or simply as with this game - kind of frustrated that we're talking around in circles and stubborning up rather than trying to compromise on lynches.

So I'm just going to leave that part of what you're seeing as "burden of activity" given I believe I have more posts than you - and both of ABR and RC have far more posts that both of us - and for the life of me I can't remember anything significant either have really done (well I guess ABR's done the rounds with voting but meh).

If you're feeling like I'm not providing enough content, how about you ask me some direct questions which aren't in walls? I dont' believe I've ignored anything you've said, correct me if I'm wrong.

It's not about amount of posts, or entirely the content itself; but the consistency as well. Which doesn't work well with how you've posted in several day intervals, only on specific discussions.

But hey, I'm glad throwing you up on the inquisition chair:

1)

Why are you pushing FA again, over all people?

2)

Who is bussing SP? And why is he town for zero resistance?

3)

Why is Titus town? You guys nonstop say that the other one is obv-town somehow, and literally nobody else seems to see it that way.

4)

Can you walk me through - in more compacted and concise words - how RC and ABR are 'linked' together, and they're scum?

Results of the consensus survey:

Won't lynch:

Johnny

[8] {Titus, talah, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, ABR, ASP}

Titus

[5] {talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR}

ABR

[3] {Titus, Wickan, ASP}

Taly

[3] {talah, Johnny, Wickan}

talah

[2] {Titus, ICE}

RC

[2] {Frozen, ABR}

ICE

[1] {RC}

Frozen

[1] {RC}

Preference for lynch - nominate ONE only:

ASP

[4] {talah, Johnny, Taly, ICE}

talah

[3] {Frozen, RC, ABR}

Ice

[2] {Titus, ASP}

RC

[1] {Wickan}

Notes:

Spoiler:

I think this is accurate. I went back to Wickan's update in 1043 and added in RC and ABR's indications and then continued from there. I tried to keep the order of stating preferences sorted by time in the list. (So first player to state an opinion appears first in each group).

I'm adding RC's 'Won't lynch' based on his 1021/1024 (ie he indicated he thought certain folks were town so presumably won't vote them at that stage)

Obviously some things might have changed now but this has been the problem; constant shifting and lack of consensus. So I really wanted a snapshot of a single state of the game we could consider and discuss (although I might have undermined that mid-survey by inviting a wagon on myself - oops. Nevertheless...)

Playerlist for reference:

(ordered by statement of preferences above)

Spoiler:

Titus
talah
JohnnyFarrar
RadiantCowbells
Taly
Frozen Angel
Wickan
Albert B. Rampage
ICEninja
A Simple Plan

Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP

---

The below results are the more important result as far as Town consensus is concerned.

Implicit Will lynch list:

This is the inverse of the "Won't lynch" list

ASP

[9] {Titus, talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ICE}

Frozen

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ICE

[8] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

RC

[7] {Titus, talah, Johnny, Taly, Wickan, ICE, ASP}

talah

[7] {Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, Wickan, ABR, ASP}

Taly

[6] {Titus, RC, Frozen, ABR, ICE, ASP}

ABR

[6] {talah, Johnny, RC, Taly, Frozen, ICE}

Titus

[4] {RC, Frozen, ICE, ASP}

Wickan

[2] {RC, ICE}

Johnny

[1] {ABR}
---

This is terrible.

First you give 2 options - not the other half the rest of us added - on our preferred lynch, creating a dichotomy.

Then you say that there is 'too much diversity' inside the formation of this popcorn read and vote/lynch.

Now whenever you're being pushed with more power - you go back to this idea and then make and INVERSE lynch list; incriminating HALF THE PLAYERLIST to be a possible lynch.

You 'narrowing down the field' just turned into you making anyone a possible lynch, all within the change of votes being placed on you.

The fact that you just push your own reads instead of providing questions to others to get their input - seems as if you're trying to cause some sort of turmoil in decision.

So, refreshing my reads and compromise suggestions for Town based on this info (and to an extent my wagon info):

ASP I'm going to suggest actually might be town based on the fact there is zero resistance to his lynch - either that or he's simply being bussed at this point because his lynch seemed inevitable. I can vote here but have changed my mind on preference.

Frozen's vote on my wagon was the most opportunistic given the lack of solid argument (I'll get to RC and ABR in a second) and there are several other aspects to her play which haven't panned out as continuing town, like it seemed they might early-ish game after my initial serious scumread and push. I'm heading back to scum there and a fantastic compromise. I don't know why she has so much implicit support but isn't pushed - indicating to me that scum aren't pushing an obvious lynch target (because she's scum).

Taly's push was pretty bad too and I'm going to be considering that but still don't want to lynch him today.

ICE I mistrust because of his *lack* of suspicion on me, actually, but hey town can be right about town. Want to put him in the on-hold bucket for now, but he'd be a like 3rd or 4th tier compromise who I'd have to re-read I think.

RC and ABR - I can't help but group their play in my head.
~ On RC, I still don't like the tunnel (which has switched form Titus to me) - there's nothing to back it up. Votes/tunnels, person being voted asks questions, RC lurks until an opportune time to randomly post a quote and call it scummy again. Rinse repeat. I'd vote here.
~ On ABR - I'd like to think his voting-round-the-world strats have a purpose. Not really perturbed by his "game too easy" comments when I'm at L-1 with intent to hammer. I want to see his play after a flip if I'm around.


So.

VOTE: Frozen

I covered a lot of this during my questioning of you.

You say my push is bad - but then you say you won't lynch me - but then your 'will lynch list' (where you put votes where people didn't place themselves) - throws 6 votes onto myself, which secures a lynch on me.

Yeah. Your 'popcorn vote analysis' doesn't add up with the reads, furthermore - you haven't even pushed on someone else yet if you do believe you could go after the 'scum on your wagon.'

The FA vote looks extremely far-sided. FA only placed a vote on you; but while you say you wouldn't want to lynch me for supposedly a "bad push" - you throw an associative over RC and ABR and then incriminate FA as opportunistic.

This doesn't look like the body of work from a towny.

>>>>

Titus, you can say all you want about how talah is obvtown- but that's not changing my mind. Despite talah wanting to 'lay low' on the posting, she seems very much like scum in my eyes.

I don't need to talk meta anymore; I have enough reason to vote to lynch talah right now in her past few posts alone.

[Taly]

I spent roughly 2 hours of last night creating 3 posts, first of me addressing talah's 1118, the second me dumping the first post halfway into talah's wall and seeing her as town; wanting to unvote, the third of me seeing her VT claim; and her 1184 (Which doesn't look like scum at all, tbh.) and wanting to outline the rest of my thoughts on the previous two posts so people could understand why/if I unvoted talah.

If anyone wants to call bullshit, then I'll happily put the 3 unfinished posts in a spoiler. Merry Christmas.

Can we not hammer or lynch talah?

I mean, I'm not sold on talah being definitively town. And I know half of you are either too apathetic, stagnant, or 'confident' to move your vote...

I don't like this wagon, and the people I did like on the wagon for a few seconds really haven't done much at all - and/or have lost the credit they had.

But Ice's vote makes me want to throw up on myself. (And the post as a whole, there - and my townread on him no longer exists.)

>>>>

If we lynch talah, I want Wickan to hide behind him

despite her flip.

I really don't like half of FA's case. (Her ISO is also mehhhhh)

>

I don't see talah using AtE that much, if at all - plus I don't agree with the concept of AtE itself.

>

I don't see talah's vote as OMGUS, exactly - even if I don't understand the re-vote.

>

So.... Whenever I was pushed to L-3 by Wickan, Titus, and ABR - and calling THEM out as a possible scumteam (before Wickan's claim) - I'm not somehow scum, but talah is?

I can't even read ABRs vote, I think he's possibly town and just breeds apathy like no other at this point.

>I sound like House. ._.

Some of RC's posts I find alarming these past few pages, but he's really low priority compared to other people, and in part to talah herself. Nothing strikes me as scum from him and I haven't had a clear read on him this entire game.

>Now back to talah

- Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

[Taly]

I really don't like half of FA's case. (Her ISO is also mehhhhh)
>I don't see talah using AtE that much, if at all - plus I don't agree with the concept of AtE itself.
>I don't see talah's vote as OMGUS, exactly - even if I don't understand the re-vote.
>So.... Whenever I was pushed to L-3 by Wickan, Titus, and ABR - and calling THEM out as a possible scumteam (before Wickan's claim) - I'm not somehow scum, but talah is?

- go back in his Iso him and you will see all those unnecessary emotional stuff which is against his personality .

Yeah, I saw that when I was making my original reply. It actually riled me up a bit.

But tbh, I can see it being angry town, unless talah tried to attack people; then I wouldn't think it's scum pulling AtE. Plus, the wagon on her did form very fast.

Except for maybe this part, though:

Believe me - I'm never walling in response to you again. Either you give me the Tony Danza or I'm fucking ignoring you.

But then again, I got a similar vibe when talah was upset in the other game.

- he called all the voters scum and then voted me base on the inverse list.

Where was this? She said there were likely 2 scum on the wagon.

I'm not scumreading him because of calling out the scum team. I'm scum reading him because he called all his voters as the scum team to ran away from the lynch.

that makes no sense. 5 people voted talah. Half the playerlist can't be scum. I don't know why you pushed that on the talah case.

+ I myself called Titus , wickan and talah the scum team somewhere before

It seems somewhat destructive to write off that Wickan is scum saying the claim was fake. You even said - for some reason, after Johnny brought up Wickans crumb the second time - that that convinced you to re-evaluate your reads.

So I'm not seeing how you saying that Titus/Wickan/Talah being the scumteam works here.

your more comfortable with me ? menas you want to see my lynch more than Talah ? if so why aren't you joining him ?

I thought I explained this in the second half of my last post. I don't like the wagon, but talah's flip could validate a lot of my suspicions revolving around it. If it wasn't obvious, I'm not clear on some of my reads here. I'm worried that talah could be town - yes, but derailing a wagon where I pushed leading to L-1 seems very unhelpful in itself at this point in the game.

But that's not stopping me from calling out issue I have with other people in association. Right now, I'm figuring out if my vote should stay for good; or change.

Do you have an issue with that?

[Taly]

@Taly : I think there are some language barriers here

about emotional part I have no more comment - yes it can be angry town but that self vote wasn't an angry town move. specially there.

Talah (5): RadiantCowbells, Frozen Angel, Albert B. Rampage, Taly, ICEninja

well he called RC ,ABR , you , me and ICE cases bad and scummy and he called a scum team : RC-Ice and me all three are his voters.

so yeah he is trying to show the wagon bad.

and telling us that we're all scum because we're voting him

>>>>>>>

I said I was telling a possible scum team before. I don't believe it anymore.

and i misunderstood your last post last part that's because I asked it.

Alright, then? Talah townreads me from what I'm seeing, and I don't know where her head is at with ABR.

Talah flips scum we autolynch Taly tomorrow.

Nice expansion on your dichotomy of us.

Trying to insist that I should be restricted to one person at this point is anti-town bordering on scum. The clear reasons not to do that have been explained again and again.

I'm not going to hammer talah. I encourage ASP not to as well.

I'm happy continuing to vote RC. I encourage others to join me. If you doubt, read him over the last few pages and ask yourself: is this actually a frustrated townie, or scum trying to give off that vibe.

I keep looking back and I'm not sure. What exactly about RCs posts strike as scum to you?

Let's do ASP instead. Also need to actually read that Taly post brb

Looking forward to this.

But John, why is SP scum exactly?

Do we have enough votes for ASP?

I'm still not entirely sure on SP being the best lynch here... There's no major case that involves just him? Other than talah's push on him.

I'm not voting ASP.

It seems clear, ridiculously clear in fact, that he's been scum's pocket mislynch for when one of them gets pressured.

Why are Taly/Talah scum together? These 3 reasons.

1) That "pm before game" comment. Last time someone made it aka Slavic Mafia 1? Scumbuddies.
2) Taly immediately voted Talah for the unvote then made an extremely coachy comment while hinting that he should unvote. Talah then unvoted.
3) Taly went from scumreading Talah to townreading as soon as serious momentum occurred there was an 180 and he backtracked.
4) Crazy waffling from both about their reads on the other. Here's an example.

>Now back to talah - Self-voting to bait yourself to scum can easily backfire and seriously be unhelpful; but I don't exactly see the scum-motivation if it was a reaction test as talah said. Though, this is partially why I want to keep my vote on talah to see the flip; and because we're in 50 pages of the game and this is just getting stupid at this point without a flip - specifically since talah's DOES give a really good amount of information either way, and I really am torn on talah at this point.

Also, the inverse list is very interesting - it's terrible, but useful; that's another reason why I want talah's flip, to see the motives behind it can know what mindset this came from and be able to interpret it late-game.

So there's my head.

I want talah's lynch, but I'd kick myself in the face if she flips town. But I'd be more comfortable with Ice or FA at this point...

But you know. If anyone wants to 1v1, talk, solve, or question me - I'm here.

1)

The PM was BEFORE GAME - as in, several days. It makes zero sense that you push this as scumbuddies even due to prior experience.

2)

Thanks for the misrep, RC. I voted talah for her self-vote and then pushed her further for that unvote - along with her general posting consistencies. And what coaching are you talking about?

3)

Want me to show you the 3 posts I wrote up so you'll see what led me to seeing talah as town? Plus, why are you accusing me of backtracking? My vote's still on talah and I still want a lynch; I'm only stating my thoughts on the wagon and how things have progressed since my previous post.

4)

Wow. You just link my posts, and you make assumptions on my reads. Btw, talah has said that she thought I was town - but you know. Just continue with that confirmation bias.

P-edit

RC; how is that coaching? Were you expecting talah to keep her vote on herself?

[Taly]

FA - read the last bit of talah's 1118

You made a bad push. I think youre town.

What she stated on ABR wasn't verified exactly, other than her saying the votes on in overall are bad.

[Taly]

FA, does someone saying your push is bad equal a scumread on you?

Everybody has different approaches and opinions about something.

Plus, are you referring to talah or RC as a 'he'? Talah is a female unless I'm mistaken?

[Taly]

she had no pronoun. I was referring to talah. and I really didn't understand the first question.

Example
>

You vote and push me.

>

I think your reasoning is bad and say that.

Does that mean I scumread you?

It's a big day one, good luck

Johnny, did you read my posting on the other page? meh ._. I'm not seeing a lot coming from you these past few pages.

Find us a scumfuck Jeanne.

I am sorry that is impossible as ice was scum.

And SP is a stronger scumread, from what I'm seeing?

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole SP-scum. A lot of the reasoning I've went back and looked at seemed to be associatives versus general play individually - minus talah's push on him and SP lurking.

>>>>

I feel a little bad about Ice replacing out... :/

Anyway, I didn't townread him. I'm going to withhold my judgement and wait for Jeanne to catch up before I do anything concerning that slot.

[Taly]

Also, thanks Taly for responding in a better format. I read what you said. I don't mind being lynched today for what it's worth.
And... I don't really care about pronous because I don't believe it's game related but mention it when I'm asked - I'm a bloke. Ether's made my last couple of Avatars.

gahhhhh, oops. X_X Your previous avatar kept making me think you were a female, similar to with RC. lol

But yeah.... If you're really town, then this lynch shouldn't have to happen in the first place.

Find us a scumfuck Jeanne.

I am sorry that is impossible as ice was scum.

Well, then, let me do the impossible. RC is what you're looking for.

You believe RC is scum?

read all of Taly's posts in the last few pages. Meh.

Who's around?

Me. .-.

I mean, if you still love me.

^^But BS aside - do you have any comment on my posting?

talah practically asked most of what I wanted to see from you.

But I still don't know if voting SP is best... I'm trying to get some thoughts here and I'm not being given this.

well. I don't know if its about my english or you trying to twist my words :

I say It was no LOGICAL and no EMOTIONAL town move. it was a POLITICAL scummy move.

^Obvious?

nope RC was testing you.

your self vote was a kind of appealing to emotion and a try for showing his push absurd.

Pop the brakes

How was RC testing talah? And how would you know that?

And why would that invalidate talah's 'reaction test' in return?

>>>>>>>

I can see the reasoning against talah, but the more I keep reading; it doesn't look like I'd be on board on this wagon for much longer. Nobody seems to want to hammer it (partially, I don't really trust SP with a hammer), and other than MAYBE Titus/SP - I'm not sure what we'd be getting if talah flipped scum. Plus people seem to be gravitating to other wagons but nobody is making a definite change to their vote in a sense.

UNVOTE:

My eyes are on RC and FA. (Jeanne at a lower degree, but I'm waiting for her catch-up before I do something there.)

[Taly]

Wickan's missing from that list, fyi.

That's just the list of players in the game minus people that I think are town though. So, there's that.

Asking you to branch out from your tunnel which I disagree with is not stupid questions.

I frankly find a singular tunnel scummy as hell because it's just a way to avoid participating with opinions otherwise.

Okay, you're scum.

VOTE: Talah

this is him trying to test Talah's reaction. and Talah voted. how do I know he was testing talah? what are you suggesting?!

+ this Taly post was weird as fuck. I'm getting a Taly-talah trying to make a counter wagon vibe.

Lay out why my post is weird as fuck.

What counterwagon are you talking about? I'm realizing at this point that a talah lynch won't go through and I unvoted. Currently, I'm suspicious of people in this game that I haven't truly pushed yet, and I'm going from there.

Fell asleep

What's your take on Frozen / RC / Ice (Jeanne)? By the way.

Frozen has her own logic that I can't really follow. Her continued attitude toward the Wickan situation after acknowledging his probable towniness is making me want her in the lynch pool a little bit

Bells is being himself, I've never played with town Bells so I don't really know what the difference here is if any.

I'm giving Jeanie the benefit of the doubt for now as Ice's some motivation for the last 10 or so pages seemed to be ending the day SOON

If I were scum, I'd have kept my suspicion on talah, which I am not. Speaking of which......

UNVOTE: Talah
VOTE: RC

Explain your talah read.

Hmmm... Let's go with this.

VOTE: Jeanne

The whole bad play vs scummy play thing is pretty terrible. Tunneling is literally all RC does, and that's the basis of the case.

Ewww.

Johnny was the person who shot up the idea of Jeanne saying 'bad play vs scummy play'

Just because one person tunnels all the time doesn't make it any less likely to come from either town-them, or scum-them, or in general.

ok but this wont prove anything because I'm town.

This literally doesn't prove anything.

My connection to Ice was just as much as my connections to Johny , wickan , titus , RC , taly ... nearly everyone else in game. No I wasn't scum hunting but hey! look! I already apologised for that,

I started few days ago. By scum hunting you and Taly ...

As much as I 'disagree' with the equality of your connections this game.

You say you weren't scumhunting - 'apologized' for that? - and started scumhunting talah and I a few days ago?

I mean. Our only interaction lately was me explaining and figuring out whether I should stay or keep on the talah wagon, and I basically questioned you. To whereas; your responses often consisted of 'language barriers' or you pulling up information that isn't relevant. (The titus/wickan/talah scumteam theory.)

Don't interpret a lot of this as scumhunting....

>>>

And since you love to say I bus -

read my previous game.

I avoid bussing, and one game that's becoming indecisive wouldn't change that.

Can talah not?

*Bats eyelashes at the VLA*

I'm slowly getting a feel for the SP compromise.

Jeanne is meh atm. I'm trying to decipher FA atm.... (It's easier but takes more time than doing so with Titus.)

Speaking of Titus, is she waiting for RC's love confession? Hey Titus, can I get some thoughts on Jeanne's assessment of how you approach the game?

I keep asking for explanation on the SP lynch though... Titus and Johnny haven't said anything about that. The fact of a possible agenda there makes me curious. But I'm currently townreading both of them. Titus in a volatile read, and Johnny is a more null - but still.

[Taly]

Oh, so if Titus townreads someone, that means they cannot be scum?

Yeah... Not getting a good vibe from this post.

Taly you went back. you never even tried to push your case on Talah. you just posted a good observation. he used it to attack the rest of voters. you back of. that was weird as fuck.

I never even tried to use that sentense to say I'm town. that post meant without seeing my flip why is he even trying to dig my relationships with other slots? which as obvious he wanted to say because I'm scum , Jeanne is the next scum! I said the way he is going is completely false because I'm town

about that team again stop bringing that up. I used it to say the fact of telling this is the scum team is not scummy, ... and I wasn't believing in that scum team there

Do you need me to outline my thought process here?

Reasons Why I Voted Talah:
1)

I had a meta-hint that talah was likely not town for his mindset due to the self-vote.

2)

I believed his posting pattern was likely something that'd come from scum.

3)

Seeing his flip would give light to some of my reads that I was uncertain of.

I DID in fact continue my push on Talah:
1)

I decided to be firm in my stance on talah, and further pushed about how him unvote seemed weird.

2)

In part to the above, I believed that talah had an agenda behind all of that; and did reply to him.

Reasons Why I Unvoted Talah:
1)

Nobody seemed willing to hammer.

2)

I did say that 1184 seemed very much like town.

3)

Talah brought up the context of her quote; and it seemed to be a reaction test.

4)

Talah was responsive to his wagon - and tbh, I don't think calling out a wagon - even if it's on you, is necessarily scum. Towns done it a bunch of times, and I've done it about twice this game.

The only thing I'd see that'd make me want to re-vote talah, is if nobody is open for progressing this game other than voting to lynch him; and/or talah returns and I then feel more affirmed in continuing that push - especially if we're at deadline by then. Other than that; I didn't exactly like him going VLA at the engagement with you, but I could see him doing that... We did have a conversation several days before the game even starting and he wanted to change his meta to make it more flexible in real life.

Whether that applies to the VLA or his actual posting, I don't know. But I'm seeing talah to being more likely town at this point, and I want to see them post more before I make another decision about it.

I keep asking for explanation on the SP lynch though... Titus and Johnny haven't said anything about that. The fact of a possible agenda there makes me curious. But I'm currently townreading both of them. Titus in a volatile read, and Johnny is a more null - but still.

I keep starting a reply to this only to get distracted or give up.

Aspy is absent (Jean has more posts than him already) and every time he shows up he's here to hop on an easy target. Worth lynching.

I've been ignored by some this game... Make an effort to not be one of the people on that list Johnny...

As for SP... Yeah, I can see him being scum on that. Ehhh... I want to prod him to do more.

SP, what are your thoughts on talah?

Thoughts on a Jean lynch Titus?

I can go for it honestly. I haven't seen a post from them yet that made me think 'that's towny' - I've only played with them when we were both newbies, so our meta has changed since then.

I don't want to vote Jeanne either, or RC, or Titus, stop bandwagonning everybody, Taly stop screwing around with your vote, let's finish this.

You don't want to vote Jeanne but you don't really interact with her instead of saying 'you're wrong?'

talah is town imo.

I know you think that.

I want reasoning.

Nothing that hasn't happened before and nothing that won't happen again.

Can you not be cryptic....?

[Taly]

5-7 pages since I posted last night? Are we in a mini, or large? o_o

I don't know why we're not lynching Jeanne after her previous posts, but I'm closer to thinking that Titus and Talah are likely town. Talah not as much, in retrospection.

The tunneling and vote-parking today is just ewww... And it's not helping us with a decision. I'm guessing their the top two wagons, since we have about 2-3 people who won't change? If so, then I'm not on board with this Titus wagon. I don't trust the people on it, pretty annoyed that Titus would just get lynched herself at this point - the principle/meta I see from Titus wouldn't suggest that a self-vote indicates scum; even if I don't see town motivation - and talah already claimed as stated, which isn't clearing any suspicion on her at all.

It makes no sense for town to out themselves as roles at this point when we have more than enough information to make a decision and follow through with it. Right now, this day is becoming more harmful to town rather than helpful. X_X

As stated before, talah's flip would be very helpful for information; I don't know exactly where the "let's push RC to L-1 in 30 fucking minutes" came from, but gut tells me that it wasn't all town on it - though... That isn't a strong feeling since there's no kind of flip to work off of that.

ABR and RC are extremely static with their reads; and I honestly don't know how we're going to get through this day before the deadline (4 more days) unless someone gives in or makes an agreement.

Concerning FA, I really don't know. I agree with the attitude of her behaving as if she doesn't know anything. But I question how genuine it is... FA is null atm, tbh.

I want to take a closer look at Johnny and SP post-flip.

VOTE: talah

I'm putting this to L-1 (again >_<), I don't believe we need intent to hammer this time?

Wickan, it'd be helpful to see who you're hiding behind.

((Psst, I recommend Jeanne or FA. Johnny isn't a bad target either.))

[Taly]

I didn't even have time to post in the 10 fucking minute twilight phase we had.

Talah, I'm sorry for lynching you. Seriously... The last 1/3 of my game this D1 makes me want to tweak my meta a bit.

Unless I'm misinterpreting something

Assuming Wickan went by the pool of

SP

, Titus, and Jean - which not doing that would make zero sense imo - and got killed for targeting scum.

I'm more confident in saying that scum is definitely between Jean and Titus.

I feel stupid af for not doing this sooner. Jeanne's opening post this dayphase just further tells me she's scum trying to appear like derptown.

VOTE: Jeanne11

[Taly]

^^ Is that L-1? There's only like. 7 people left....

[Taly]

Is that implying a Bells Talah team? Vote Talah to find out~

Dunno what that last sentence means.

Funny how you posted now, when you started the whole thing.

VOTE: Johnny

Yadda yadda, I am bad, yadda yadda. But you wanted to have talah lynched first. I just gave to pressure. So explain yourself, big boy.

...........

Wtf did I just read.

I is VT.

This does nothing to alleviate my suspicion on you.

>>>>

If we have 3 scum this set-up, we're technically in mylo. Which I doubt tbh... Unless I'm sincerely wrong about my townreads.... Since SP's town, I want Johnny to actually do something today...

ABR/Johnny - Do you guys believe in a Titus/Jean scumpair?

[Taly]

ASP, ABR, ICE

That should be the hider pool.

Don't mind a Jeanne flip here.

Then an ABR flip.

Taly is almost certainly scum based on yesterday though.

"I don't mind a Jeanne flip for her derphammering town into oblivion! My, while I line up lynches to come, I WON'T contribute to seeing Jeannes flip and instead incriminate the only person who considered talah to be town for a few seconds."

This looks like a complete reflection off of Jeanne's lynch.

Specifically while you quote YOUR OWN pool from 700 posts ago; not the 5+ other pool reworks we created throughout the second half of D1 because of WIFOM blasting everywhere.

Tbh, the fact that you wouldn't even consider talah-scum in the first place makes me think that you knew he was.

Taly, give me one good reason why a) I am not obtown and b) you're not recklessly trying to scumpaint me as partners with Jeanne like you know what she's going to flip.

h/2= p - - q: m n s @ r t 5 6

Wow.... So I'm supposed to bow down and townread you for wanting to lynch yourself instead of wanting confirmation on a flip to progress the game?

I mean, there's really nothing else that could make me think you were town pre-flip other than WIFOM.

Please. Tell me why you're town, because I'm seeing that less and less by each post.

1)

Why should I townread you? In hindsight, it made NO sense for town to do this.

You know what this will protect Wickan use my pool and get me out of this.

VOTE: Titus

Since Wickans claim is now 100% confirmed via flip; Wickan townread you - and you did so to him, why would town voluntarily lynch themselves to confirm someone else - or keep them from being lynched? I guess maybe you could have known that he wasn't faking?

Was it because you were being thrown into the pool yourself and didn't want to be incriminated?

2)

Point B was a damn misrep. Scumpoints for you.

I asked ABR and Johnny if you could see a Titus/Jean scumpair, and I said I was confident on scum being between you and Jean - did that mean I definitively said both of you were scum - or painting you both as scum? No.

The fact that you just jumped to that conclusion on 2 totally separate things makes me think you're defending yourself in the context that I'm correct.

3)

Reckless? Really... You're accusing me of being reckless for doing - in D1 - what I THOUGHT would give me good information, and now going into D2 - assertingmy thoughts - and you deflate that as recklessness?

If you really do think I'm reckless - then why are you too busy saying - definitively - that I'm ALMOST certainly scum because the previous dayphase - without any pushes to engage with me other than saying I should basically townread you, and then shit on my suspicions?

>>>>>>

I played horribly this game. I acted more confident than I was with my reads, and it backfired on me. I'm not going to apologize, this is what I do every game and more often than not it pays off. I'm not going to change my playstyle. Do I deserve to be lynched here, probably.

ABR don't do this baiting.... X_X

Titus would string me along as scum, she knows I can't read her. Asking for my flip after Jeanne is uncharacteristic of good scum strategy imo.

As someone who scumread you early in your engagement in this game (contrary to my townread on you now) - The fact that Titus said that you were definitely town versus any other evidence I put up against her, or you - sounds to me exactly like 'string me along.'

Plus, assuming you're definitively town - even if Jeanne is lynched as scum - lynching you would put the game at 3 person mylo come D4 - that's only going off of us being lucky and having 2 town.

I don't think going off definite meta right now is a sure-way to go. Specifically since we just lynched town.

>>>>>>>

In any case, I'm waiting as Johnny stated. Jeanne's recent posts - I have no idea wtf they are. This needs to be lynched. But seeing FA here would at least be helpful.

[Taly]

Doing this before mod cuts me off.

Lol @Taly, try harder.

I am one v oneing you after Jeanne's flip since my conftown (Johnny and ABR) want it.

You can try to argue that I was budding ICE, white knighting Talah and Wickan, and trying to force obvtown to work together as scummy.

You'll need RC alive to do that. Good luck.

VOTE: Jeanne

lol, never said you were buddying with Jeanne. Just that you were just reflecting it to someone else with no stated reasoning and by a flawed basis.

obvtown? So I guess you've always been confident of a specific set of people of this game being town... Huh.

And RC is involved in this how? Yeah. You're not town.

The hammer looks like a bus off of the grounds that FA hasn't posted yet and I am correct.

[Taly]

:/ So Johnny was a weird kill, unless scum thought that he wouldn't be lynched. There goes some paranoia over him his possible scumflip.

But other than that; Johnny only stated he would have voted Titus to lynch yesterday. 1580

Unless there's somehow an ABR+FA scumteam - or either one of them being the remaining scum individually (which doesn't look possible) - then a Johnny kill wouldn't look likely from anyone else but Titus-scum.

RC's recent posts make me think their likely town - the gauging for reactions thing seems motivated in that sense.

I sincerely doubt everyone that pushed him to L-1 in D1 were town. Johnny and Wickan flipped town, however.

ABR's last post makes me a bit edgy, but I can't see him as scum bussing Jeanne.

ahhh

I knew he was scum in day 1 ...

VOTE: Taly

UNVOTE:

.........................

Care to explain why I'm likely Jeanne's buddy?

And also, what are you talking about me ending the day yesterday? I really don't understand your posts sometimes, I was the second vote on Jeanne, and I stated that I preferred t see you post before the day ended.

>>>>>

In any case, I'm confident that Titus is scum at this point. Her vote on Jeanne as I've stated - appears like a bus. Nothing from there D2 play rings to me as town, and assuming that RC's original theory of Titus' scum-positioning applies here, plus my own reasoning for suspecting her, then it's most likely by her own read formation that she is scum.

VOTE: Titus
This is L-1. I believe intent to hammer would be appropriate, here.

But RC, why are you insistent on there only being 1 scum left?

[Taly]

So.... RC dies the moment after he says he'd rather lynch ABR than me....

Btw ABR, way to hammer Titus without her being able to post yesterday.....

My view on the 2 people I didn't want to make it to mylo with?

ABR has quickly changed his reads on me throughout this game. FA has consistently scumread me, and has stated little exactly as to why.

Unless FA is playing some cruel game, I'm having a hell of a time trying to see ABR as town at this point.

Especially since he's still alive after this shit:

I played horribly this game. I acted more confident than I was with my reads, and it backfired on me. I'm not going to apologize, this is what I do every game and more often than not it pays off. I'm not going to change my playstyle. Do I deserve to be lynched here, probably.

I know that's your style. Doesn't it bother you that no one wanted your head today?

It's a welcome surprise. I want to win.

What are you going to do if Titus flips town and I'm NK'd?

I mean. You literally asked RC to tell you what to do last night. Unless you can enlighten me about something?

But you know.... Your opening post was just you saying you loved RC instead of solving this game. So I'm a little unsure on how you're town if you're sitting around waiting for something to pull your punches?

>>>

FA, please - consider what RC said in the previous twilight phase about ABR. I'm still open for you to stick something up my ass and probe me if you want any question answered. I highly doubt you're scum at this point - and we're the remaining town, which makes sense because we haven't been on the same page with each other throughout this game.

If you still want to talk, then please answer my question on how I'm more likely scumbuddied with Jeanne

ABR,

VOTE: Albert B. Rampage

FA is asleep right now by her time, so a hammer won't work here. But by my reads already; I'm not afraid of putting this vote up.

Concerning Jeanne and yourself - in ISOing you, 1377 to 1382 - seem like you're coaching Jeanne, I wasn't sure at first, but it's making me hella skeptical.

1387 - I mean, Ice was scum - wasn't he?

I'd like an explanation over your Jeanne read formation from 1361 where you didn't want to vote Jeanne.

But in 1392 and 1395 You wanted to lynch Jeanne tomorrow, but gave rationale to their slot being town?

1416 you degraded the Jeanne lynch as a low-hanging meh fruit compromise....

And when Jeanne votes talah - 1551 you say as if Jeanne's now scum, and 1561, you say she's getting lynched with no question - BEFORE talah even flips.

1567, you somehow put all the responsibility of talah's lynch on yourself, but vote Jeanne?

This is what seriously bothers me here. This does not look consistent, or at the very least - it doesn't look genuine. I keep looking through FA's ISO and I don't see any inconsistencies revolving around Jeanne.

Like to see your thoughts on FA and a response to the above.

[Taly]

._........

So that's all you think you need to say? To mislynch me? Especially since you somehow "knew" I was scum since D1 but townread me the moment I put up a valid case against any of your scumreads? (talah)

Scum positioning 101.

Love how your townread deteriorated on me the moment I put up ANYTHING against you in this game state. Partially because you never mentioned your thoughts on FA at this point.

The apathy reads as if you're signaling for something to happen so you could pursue me.

I haven't seen this self-imploding come from town...

[Taly]

You're voting me so you're scum. There's nothing to talk about, I'm the designated mislynch of the day that was planned.

Really? Is that why Johnny and RC are both dead - who townread me? Because I'm trying to mislynch you? I already stated that I welcome hearing your thoughts on FA.

Nothing I can do or say? I mean your points make sense on paper? I decided to vote RC and was against lynching Jeanne at first before day 3?

Nothing you can do or say? I'm listening to you phrase by phrase. What else are you wanting?

And you voted RC and was against lynching Jeanne before D3? Wtf.

Jeanne was lynched D2. You death-tunneled talah and then turned on Jeanne whenever she jumped on. You're distorting this.

I don't know, good job I guess?

If I was Frozen right now and coming in without knowing who is who, I'd vote for me too. I dug my own grave by not attacking you harder d1 or trying harder to lynch Jeanne.

I guess we had a small window to lynch you yesterday but RC was so stuck on Titus we wouldn't have the numbers. I don't care if town loses this, everyone played badly.

Instead of shitting on everybody else and saying all these things you *COULD* have done, you don't even talk to me about my questions and assertions to you and write me off as scum - but it's *your* doing of not lynching me sooner?

This isn't town......

I literally had you and Ice day one until you guys blew up the thread to 50 pages and I lost my way. Look at my iso. No day 1 should go on for that long. If it was any normal game town would have stomped om you and Jeanne.

Literally, half the playerlist - including myself said that D1 continued for far too long. You throwing this shit on everybody else and then threatening me as if you could have and WANTED to mislynch me - sounds just like scum caught because they felt like they made a mistake.

And no. I only voted for 4 people D1, and was largely consistent with my reads. Don't put everything on one thing when YOU were fully capable of doing something about it.

[Taly]

You say I planned this game from the beginning by going after you...?

>That ignores my push on Titus, even in RVS.
>Me gauging for reactions in RVS
>Me connecting any theory in posting time this game
>My original Wickan vote/push
>Me explaining my entire thought process while Ice pushed me.
>And ANY time where I wasn't pushing you, or when I was considering you as TOWN - like I did through most of the game where it progressed.
>Or whenever I openly had conversations with people like Johnny and talah.

ISO me if you have something to say, then. Because I've already looked at yours.

You dismiss that and categorize me as a careful player? So... Voting and pushing around half the playerlist is considered careful?

I've gotten into about 6 1v1s this game..... And you go ahead and vote me off of a

"feeling of - oh, your careful"

right after I call you out on you not even commiting to go after your

"scumreads"

and how your manuvers in this game have been most likely scum up to this point...

This is definitively scum. You literally ignored any interval where I tried to get you to have a decent game-solving conversation these last few posts and instead you shit on everybody elses play while taking any generalization you can make up right now, and throw it onto me to incriminate me as scum.

No. This can't be town. I don't see my vote changing at this point.

[Taly]

FA, I'm going to go to bed very soon since it's late here - But I'm still open for conversation over anything you'd want to ask me, if I can't get to it tonight, it will be in the morning.

As for how my posts are supposedly rehearsed? Uh... No. I have plenty of games where I make wall posts and openly admit my thought process and go from there. If anyone is uncertain on why ABR is scum (which I believe I've stated my thinking there very thoroughly.) then I'll reiterate and expand as much as I can.

In terms of confidence? No, I haven't been very confident in my reads much at all in D3 - or even too much in this game, my thoughts on the Johnny kill and how I thought it connected to Titus was my true thinking. I even stated that I was ambiguous on ABR and you - yourself, FA - because I couldn't wrap my head around the final scum based off yesterday.

Seeing exactly how ABR talked to RC in twilight, then RCs death - after he hammered Titus without letting her speak, rings to me as scum in full. Which is the most recent evidence showing that he is scum. The "yeah, but I'm town" is something I've seen scum do as much as town, substance is what matters.

There's a lot of pressure that goes into mylo hammering FA; that confirms to me that you're truly town, and ABR is the final scum since you're willing to think about this before ending the game. Due to previous mylo encounters, I'm sensitive to uncertain feelings here; so I will only tell you what I think and why, and recommend you the only other option.

RC recommended lynching ABR over myself in twilight yesterday. Do what you want with that, but that's his view from what has been stated. 1628

And now I need to go to bed. x_x like. I need my sleep.

[Taly]

As for how my posts are supposedly rehearsed? Uh... No. I have plenty of games where I make wall posts and openly admit my thought process and go from there. If anyone is uncertain on why ABR is scum (which I believe I've stated my thinking there very thoroughly.) then I'll reiterate and expand as much as I can.

You started the day with a huge post slamming me with a vote and why I'm supposedly scum. You already had a plan to do that, you didn't just decide overnight that I was going to be the mislynch, you calculated it and took notes along the way. That's how it reads.

-_- the same misrep again. No, if you ISOed me you'd see I have a lot more interactions that don't even involve you.

In terms of confidence? No, I haven't been very confident in my reads much at all in D3 - or even too much in this game, my thoughts on the Johnny kill and how I thought it connected to Titus was my true thinking. I even stated that I was ambiguous on ABR

You said you "couldn't see me as scum bussing Jeanne", that's what you said.

Yeah, I didn't see that previously, compared to other information suggesting someone else was most likely scum.

Seeing exactly how ABR talked to RC in twilight, then RCs death - after he hammered Titus without letting her speak, rings to me as scum in full. Which is the most recent evidence showing that he is scum. The "yeah, but I'm town" is something I've seen scum do as much as town, substance is what matters.

You admit this is null at the end, so you simply added this as grave to color Frozen's perception.

I said your 'defense' was null, you saying 'you were town.' Not the reason I scumread you itself.

You accuse me of twisting this but you just did the exact same thing.

RC recommended lynching ABR over myself in twilight yesterday. Do what you want with that, but that's his view from what has been stated. 1628

You can't do that. You can't say listen to RC. RC was hurt about the flashwagon and wanted me dead not because he thought I was scum, but because I was on his bandwagon and you and Frozen weren't, he wanted revenge. He's said it time and again, "you deserve to lose for trying to lynch me". You're really twisting things to your advantage.

I still don't believe everybody that flashwagoned him was town.

RC never explicitly stated why. You're using this as a means to take apart an argument of mine on you being scum when there was absolutely no reason for you to say this.

What are you going to do if Titus flips town and I'm NK'd?

I said my night... means 12 hours from now! I won't fast hammer I promise you both.

I will dig your Iso and try to connect the dots. ask tons of questions and I will w8 for their answers.

and Taly : don't ever ever try to convince me that I should follow RC's last wish blindly.

Um.... You talked about RC and how he'd react here.

I only told you what he recommended.... >_> Nothing about you blindly doing something, don't twist it.

Taly

ahh
I really don't like the way you started the game now that i'm looking back.

the thing you said about sheeping you and starting town reading others for not doing that is now triggering me off.

RVS' are rarely serious in openings. Looking at the next few post in how I work off of the RVS through principle.

post 66 : you unvoted wickan to avoid L2 , bad

To avoid L-1*

post 69 by Ice : he make a catchup post and attack Taly directly

post 75 : Taly attacks Ice catch up post

Becsue it was partally about him scumreading me and I was confronting him about his reasons?

post 87 : Taly tries to deviant the Ice push on him to me.

Ice had most intractions with Taly slot in day 1 - never leaded for suggesting a Taly lynch.

The thing that seemed odd most about Ice's original push on me was that he picked on my vote based on grounds that applied to both of us.

This partially led to me questioning that there was likely scum within you guys later on.

MAYBE I JUST THINK YOU'RE MISGUIDED TOWN?

This sentense is just creeping me out...

Ice suggested a Taly - wickan scum team.

post 127 of Ice : Ice tries to help Taly to deviant the push on me.

>Never took that push onto you, even if it were considered, I did engage with you a bit more after this.

Basically... I feel like there is probably scum between:

Ice, Wickan, FA

this read was absurd. You kind of knew there is a scum here in post 211? yeah you knew Ice was scum. Why you accused me of not engaging with you when all your questions were already answered before?

There are town that exist where you can catch scum early... >_> But I wasn't confident in that, and felt very odd at the interactions I had with Ice and Wickan. Expressed in full in 150, which explained why I toyed around with them both being likely scum.

And I explained above as to how my read developed concerning yourself.

This bothers me more because half of the town seems to townread Wickan, and the other half seems to townread Ice - and vice versa with scumreading.

But you were scumreading both of them?

Not entirely, at that point - I was torn on both of them because of the recent interactions. This is where I started pushing other people like ABR and Titus.

Shortly after, you see me being more defined in my reads on them both.

post 395 : you could see me as town?!

Yes? This was after my first engagement with you, and even though I felt suspicious and had you as null for a bit, I kept finding your general posts come off as genuine.

you started engaging with talah and titus

post 461 : It was a complete backtracking ... Your town reading me (not voting me at all) - think Ice is MISGUIDED and happy to vote wickan - titus - ASP?

Why would I vote you if I believed you were town? I was engaging with Johnny and marking off who I wasn't keen on voting for at that point.

I wasn't entirely confident on the Ice town read, which was why I said I was fine going back to pushing him - but if you looked at my other posts, then I've already had several reasons built on why I believed Wickan and Titus were possible scum, and SP since he seemed like a lurker.

post 610 : bad. more backtracking

I'm OK with a Titus lynch... but I don't like re-voting or unvoting after I set myself onto a decision.

? I don't understand what exactly is backtracking here, I was going based off of the people I stated who I'd vote for and go from there. My intentions weren't clear?

People were talking about a consensus lynch by this point and Titus didn't seem to work then, I also wanted to push after others who I wasn't certain of.

post 728 : back on titus

I rarely get NKed; but when I do - it's extremely early in game.

I get wagoned a lot, especially when I'm town. But a lot of my wagons are scum-led throughout my games...

why it was so different in this game?

Kind of tired ... I continue this later

I think you're misinterpreting some of my posts....

How is it so different? I stated that I've gotten wagoned and discredited before so I was left as a mislynch later and never NKed, that's exactly what I'm seeing happening right now...

>>>

FA, you want conversation - I'd like to hear your thoughts on me more likely being Jeanne's partner.

This is an issue I have with ABRs push on me.

Why would it make sense for scum-me to kill off the one person that wouldn't vote me right off the bat in mylo? I'm not that calculated, obviously if I were scum and wanted to waffle the whole damn game I just would have went into a multiball and prayed I got a 3p faction.

FA, my scum game has been linked here. My ONLY other game as mafia; just read through that and there are tons of differences in how I approach there from here. 395

If I weren't sure about my reads this game I took the initiative to do something on either verifying them, or understanding them or another thing.

ABR baiting RC to give out even part of his agenda on the possible events to occur in mylo rings completely as scum wanting to get confirmation on how to act.

FA - You've scumread me a lot this game - and you don't seem to completely understand my approach this game based off of how you took in my posts in D1.

Literally, the 3 of us being the last ones alive - two of us already having this notion on each other that the other could be scum - ABRs opening this game wasn't even about pushing one of us. It seemed like he was waiting for someone to be correct about me and push him, so he could vote them - and then the other would likely follow.

Town works to understand, and scum works to divide. I'm actively trying to get you to work with me here, I want you to acknowledge that.

[Taly]

My vote on Jeanne D2 was a mixture of me scumreading Ice when on how he jumped onto talah, and how vague Jeanne had been once she replaced in.

I questioned and suspected Jeanne D1 and the aftermath of D1 is what finally led me to thinking she was most likely scum.

Basically what I said in my opening post D2, 1566 I used the only likely pool that Wickan could have gone by that led to his death in hiding. Since SP flipped town, I then finally pushed Jeanne since there were no greater candidate of likely flipping scum.

I also pushed Titus for not going on board with the Jeanne lynch despite the spill of info. via flips. And pushed Titus as being the likely scumbuddy for a bit, but wasn't sold on that until D3 where I voted there.

I legitimately tried to figure out Jeanne, and I actively pushed her to have conversation with me - and call her out whenever she wasn't providing anything helpful. (Her weird posts D2.)

ABR's vote and reasoning doesn't seem genuine in my eyes.

1551 - BEFORE talah even flips, ABR assumes that Jeanne bussed talah, and after his last few posts of Jeanne consisted of saying

"Jeanne is a compromise lynch"

1416 after contradicted himself and STATED that Jeanne was D2s lynch. 1392

>>

Him going to this position on Jeanne seems like a quick move in distance, and drawing up on associatives that wouldn't involve himself. The fact that he changed his position and attitude on Jeannes lynch within such a short amount of time suggests that he was placing himself in a place where Jeanne could be lynched without any resistance, or at least - giving himself the ability to freely bus Jeanne whenever she quickhammered ABR.

Now that I think about, the whole Jeanne hammering talah and how quickly ABR jumped on Jeanne for that, seemed like a scum tactic- sacrificing Jeanne.

It makes more sense because ABR's opening post D2 1567 - Was NOT even talking about how Jeanne was scum, instead - he baited the idea that talah's lynch was his fault and then pushed Jeanne to L-1 AFTER Johnny and I voted.

ABR never even put up the idea that he pushed Jeanne to L-1.

He already knew Jeanne was going to flip scum.

I literally had to call that out before anyone derp-hammered. 1568

Johnny was killed N2, if ANY vote was planned here - it'd probably be him on Jeanne because:

A)

He wanted to leave possibilities to incriminate someone down the line.

B)

His whole tunnel on talah wasn't exactly explained, but while he claimed that talahs lynch was all his fault, he sheep-bussed Jeanne like any inconsistency he put up in D1 mattered. 1582

C)

- Jeanne LITERALLY did nothing against her wagon D2 leading to her lynch. If ABR self-imploded D2 about how he was upset that his 'talah tunnel' was a bust, then it was probably scum theatre and distancing.

Jeanne and ABR didn't even speak in D2 outside of ABR's vote.

((Except for 1572 and 1573 - Where ABR just said that this couldn't be Jeanne town but Jeanne only directed him to talk to Johnny - the person he voted against... Guess who died that night again? Johnny.))

I put everything I could on the table surrounding my thoughts on Jeanne and any other possibility. 1576 and 1589 I even wanted your thoughts on Jeanne before the lynch was official, FA.

This is also a major portion as to why I believe that ABR is the final scum, FA. If there's anything you're not understanding about this, then I'll reiterate and answer your questions.

But that's my thinking on ABR's bus, it seemed planned.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

P-Edit

You want scum meta of bussing? Alright.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=63741

This is my only game as mafia as stated before.

Read the post game. Page 30.

I avoid bussing. I also post A LOT LESS as scum and don't interact as much.

Read posts 375, and 498. Those are posts I voted for RC - who was my scumpartner in that game. Notice how a lot of my reasoning is either one-sided or me tired of being tunneled? Versus genuine scumhunting? The vote almost came out of nowhere considering I spoke to other people with more heat.

They were very short and underwhelming and I dismissed a lot of RCs posts against me previously, without a lot of pushing.

Pushing Jeannes lynch while sorting other things out was all I did D2.

But judge for yourself.

[Taly]

:/ This is why I typically do not like making it to mylo. This gamestate is almost always stressful as fuck regardless of anything.

I'm really sorry and a bit upset with myself that you're taking this personally, ABR. Making you feel like shit makes me feel like shit because that's not even my intention.

I try to avoid saying anything personal or something that'd be interpreted as that. None of my argument against you says anything about you as a person, or you outside of this game - I have had little experience with you outside of this game - ingame or out, and I'm making myself open for you to talk to me about anything because my last town game ended in me surviving in mylo and people took things out of context and shit went south in terms of peoples thinking on me.... I don't want a repeat of that. Idgaf about alignment at that point. This is a game - even if it resembles several social experiments. I want to keep it that way.

I'll even link the game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=61479

>

We won. But I wasn't really happy about it. Last 2-3 pages is what I'm mostly referring to.

((To be fair, I did jump a bit off my rocker in the end, but I avoided saying anything negative about someone personally and held to it.))

In reference to the lying? I really don't understand what you mean of this. My past few posts are mainly directed to FA's prompt and I'm expanding and reiterating my conclusion on your alignment with reasoning. I'm not saying you're like this in other games, I'm not saying this is something you always, or never do - I'm not even saying that you're saying/insinuating that I do this - I'm making my own judgements based off of what I see here, now.

Looking at your response, I understand I have over-stepped a bit, and I should respect your boundaries. I do see I can be very strong when pushing people because I am very detail-oriented and bring up a lot of what I see in something. So again.... I really don't want this to become a shitfest much in this game anymore and definitely not out of game. I'm sorry, tbh I kind of want to continue speaking to you after this game on a relaxed tone after the heat and game has died.

However, what I've said so far on my case still goes. Since you and I seemed to have laid our thinking out in terms of each others alignments, I'll just step back and speak to FA for what she's wanting to know at this point.

[Taly]

.....

I can't tell if you're trying to emotionally manipulate me...

OR

You actually have a personal problem with me...

Or both?

I hope not....

>

You accused me of lying, being a manipulator. Even stated that you wanted to slap me around, and saying how you felt personally hurt.

(Even to the point of saying you're just going to ignore me.)

>

I level with you on a personal level; explaining myself, saying nothing was personal, putting context outside game

>

And you just throw this back into the game-mindset. And used part of my argument against you back towards me.

(Without even touching up on what I lied about, or did - at all.)

Like, seriously. I gave you everything to talk about and to work over and you pull this.

Well played, scum.

I'm not doing this with you.

[Taly]

You know what. Let's just stop with this back and forth. It's really not accomplishing anything, and I feel like we're miscommunicating when we already have our minds made up. I believe I misread part of your previous post in retrospect.

I'm not trying to make this personal at all, and I can see that you're trying not to either. X_X....

[Taly]

Is there anything else you want to see or talk about?

There's really not much else to be said here unless you call for it.

Hoping this game ends before Christmas, not to rush you or anything... I'm just going to be VLA for a few days fairly soon. X_X

Plus, this is just a game. The heat should die down if it hasn't started already.

[Taly]

Eh... Was about to submit a whole post about how ABR was definitively scum by the interactions with Jeanne and talah D1.

Oh well. ABR, you played an awesome scum-game. Putting FA and me in mylo together was my nightmare scenario this game.

Hopefully you aren't actually upset with me, personally. It'd fucking suck that I lost and had shit with people, too. lol

I came into this day and saw that RC died. Instantly knew I had a 90% chance of being mislynched, and was certain ABR was scum.

FA - I don't think you're a bad player or even remotely a bad person. *hug* Actually, I'd like to speak to you after this game on a nicer tone. c:

But yeah. Town lost. We should take this as a lesson, FA.

Guess this is fair since I lynched talah and Titus, eh?

[Taly]

I voted Titus and Jeanne, I (and Johnny when he was alive) asked people to not hammer or do anything so you could post.

Don't be hard on yourself, FA. It's a game. I'm just glad I gave both scum AND town a run for their money.

[Taly]

Looking forward to my death scene, Myko.

I don't get them too often in mafia because I'm either endgamed, lynched way too early, or I win.

>>>

P-Edit

You can vent and PM me about to FA if it makes you feel better.

[Taly]

I just realized.

If ABR was actually killed.

I would have had a hand in BOTH scum deaths, and half of towns deaths this game.

Like wtf. This isn't Big Brother.

I should chill. XD

>>>

P-Edit

No, no. I'm not bothered at all. But do what you wish. ^_^

[Taly]

Oh shit.

This is my 1000th post on this site.

(Excluding the Speakeasy and GTKAS.... You know. ;3)

[Taly]

Op. Fuck.

Severe weather where I am. Tornado type storms. Weird that they're at noon in the "winter."

Oh well, don't worry about me kiddies. I deal with this type of weather every few months from where I live in the US.

But yeah. Internet is going cray.

<3 I'll make an ass of myself with you guys post-game when I return.

[Taly]

All's good and.... Nobody's here.

[Taly]

Yeah, it is a town loss.

There's no reason for me to lie about it

[Taly]

It's fine. c: I've gotten mislynched in mylo before.

I've also caught scum in mylo and the other person realized it.

But oh well xp

[Taly]

Damn Titus sorry for sucking?

1v1ing typically gave a decent dose of info. I 1v1ed scum, a good part. ;P

And no, I wasn't sure of RC being scum much at all, I'm pretty sure I constantly made people aware of that?

Plus, I never really defended Ice. o_o.... I just townread them up until late D1.

Sorry for bad play, town? X_X......

[Taly]

I think I did pretty decent in lylo considering my disposition.

[Taly]

RC, you should have said something about me being town. ;-; <3

ABR, - phew, glad nothing was personal. I actually got pissy a little bit, hopefully that didn't show so much.

ABR, what did you think about 1v1ing me in mylo?

[Taly]

Ah

oh well, I want to think I at least was a stronger force in this town, but I'm both the reason as to why we lost, and almost won over different things. o_o

[Taly]

Liked the death scene Myko c;

[Taly]

I'm polarizing as fuck when I play as town. ._.

[Taly]

I still think that attempted quickhammer on me basically lost us the game.

I was never going to trust Titus or Johnny after that and it took away a lot of the sting of my ABR scumread when he could act like it was borne out of resentment for that.

I agree tbh.

That's why I kept saying

"there has to be scum who voted RC!"

[Taly]

Oh wow, thanks ABR. .-. o:

Yeah. :/ Sometimes me 1v1ing causes more rifts in town then game-solving.

If Masons were in this set-up, town could have steamrolled this.

[Taly]

bffs or afk? <3

but yeah. lynching you (titus) and talah were not my best decisions this game. sorry .-.

[Taly]

talah <3

[Taly]

Wow, I was a main conversation in the dead thread. O_O

maybe I should implement my town playstyle here - more generally throughout my games.

[Taly]

And yet my town winratio is back to 50/50.....

I need to get this shit in check next game.

Also, liked playing with you two. c: