Micro 687: Vanilluxe Mafia - Mafia Victory!!!

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VOTE: GuiltyLion

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

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@mod

-

1. This game will have public voting with 14 day deadlines until the start of day 3. From then there will be 10 day deadlines.

Day one ends March 14th at 1pm EST, or in (expired on 2017-03-14 13:00:00)

Is day 1 14 or 24 days long?

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Sick.

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For what it's worth I was planning on voting GL here like that ever since our last game ended. The vote on me/question to me had no bearing on my first post.

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^ is this to me or GL?

For me just 1 full game and 2 games where I replaced into a slot.

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What point?

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I think it's a bad argument but bork seemed to be pushing back on it enough for me.

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Sure. GL made a bad argument but you seemed to be calling it out in post 38 and later 46 so I felt no need to comment on it, at least until GL responded to you.

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You will receive the I Am Error Achievement for this!
(For pointing out a Mod Error). I'll post a list at the end of the game.)

That last closing parenthesis has no corresponding opener.
Achievement earned!!!

Damn I wanted to be special.

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I would indeed expect a scumflip from me to indict rather than clear GL (if anything) for that really abortive interaction

This reads off to me. The sentiment makes sense, but the phrasing is not how I would expect town to put it.

@Fro99er - is your Bella read solely based off 80? I didn't think it was that unreasonable of an inference.

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I think starting the hypothetical with a situation that, if you're town, will never happen is what threw me. I would say either "a scumflip from GL would look bad for me" or "I can see how that would look like a scum-scum interaction" or something like that.

My first game I (town) was scumread d1 for similar phrasing so I don't think its super AI, just something to note.

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@Lowell -

fos guilty lion

. Something is going on between him and sobolev. If someone is pocketing someone else, I always look to the more experienced player first.

What is going on between me and GL?

Additionally, why the townlean on TTTT? There's not much to go on but that would make him null for me.

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Great minds think alike bork.

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Care to explain the town read on me?

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@Lowell - what caused the change in your read on me from 114 to now?

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I like Frog.

Later tonight when I have time I'll review some of his other games to see if these meta claims are accurate.

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hey btw idr if I said it in this game or not but assuming I'm still alive i'll be v/LA for most of March. going away for almost 3 weeks. I will have Internet access so I'll still be here but it'll be limited. 7th-25th to be exact. just a heads up.

Don't worry Eddie I'll make sure to get you lynched before that

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On a more serious note, I've skimmed through Frog's iso in a couple other games and I'm not seeing this as scum. His play in Mini 1734 (http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=63822) reminds me a lot of his this game (although I haven't read it too in depth). Null for now.

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what specifically about his play in that game reminds you of this game?

His focus on meta reads and (to a lesser degree) wifom.

What other games did you skim?

Micro 554 and Micro 494

And why go through the motion of explaining this just to shelve him at a nullread?

Because it was information that contributed to my read on him?

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@Lowell -

What is going on between me and GL?

Additionally, why the townlean on TTTT? There's not much to go on but that would make him null for me.

I think the sentiment expressed in 112 comes from town; lowell why do you call it twitchy?

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@Lowell -

@Lowell - what caused the change in your read on me from 114 to now?

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GL's last few posts are atrocious.

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If I had seen that in past town games Frogger played substantially different than this game I would have scum read him. Since I didn't see that I decided his activity was NAI so far and just a style I wasn't used to. I recognize he acts this way as town and scum, that's why he's null.

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I think the points are bad. Still undecided if it's scum motivated. Will come back with some quotes.

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Questions in 209, especially the last one, seemed pointless

the strong SS townread seems unnatural to come from scum - I don't think SS has done anything especially obvtown this game to force a TR, and I would expect scum to try to keep her mislynchable if she's town.

"I don't understand why TTTT is strongly TR-ing SS so he's probably town"

see I generally agree with this, but I don't think SS would be the townie that TTTT would do that with. She's been pretty low key and under the radar. There's no lynch to strongly direct away, and there's no massive SS presence that needs to be buddied/pocketed/townread.

How on earth would scum town reading some rando direct away a lynch? Who do you think scum would choose to fake TR instead of me?

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Okay GL is probably town. The GL I remember would be attacking me harder for my last few posts.

VOTE: Lowell

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I can see Lowell and eddie as a team right now

^

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@frogger, I'm always shallow, homeboy. I'm not here to think, I'm here for blood. You'll have to be okay with that.

we ain't homeboys

http://i.imgur.com/HLzrf6j.gif

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@Eddie
your TTTT read is fair
not even gonna argue

This is weird. I don't know why, but it is.

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@SBF - what was Eddie's follow-through from his opening maneuver?

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Bork when we sync up completely we'll become a single unlynchable, unkillable super town.

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@Eddie - if you want more content from me ask me questions. I've been trying to keep my reads closer to my chest than in previous games (for various reasons) but I'm still happy to work with y'all if you think I haven't been providing enough info.

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Haha thanks Bork I was about to post just that about 229. I didn't say I didn't see his behavior as scum, I said I didn't see it as scummy. Not scummy != towny.

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Bork can you explain what you're trying to say with the above post to me?

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Ah I gotchu. Fair enough although I think my prior TR on GL and SR on Lowell still push me to side with GL here.

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How would you feel about an SBF lynch today?

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I don't know. I want to see SBF's response to our questions about her Eddie read before making a full judgement, but I have a moderate scumread on her and think that lynch would do the least damage to town.

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At this point my vote is probably going to stay between Lowell and SBF for the remainder of the day.

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@SBF - what is your opinion on Frogger/Bella?

If you could know with 100% certainty that I was town who, aside from GL, would you think was scum?

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Cane's opening was, as I see it, a reaction test. Scum love easy targets, and giving one to them is a very effective way to hunt.

This is a good point.

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Nice to see you back TTTT! Any new thoughts?

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My opinion on SBF's last post? I disagree with almost all of the points but am unsure if it's scum motivated. I want SBF to offer content or interact with more than just me/GL/Eddie. There is some odd stuff in the post (see my 339).

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I pointed it out because it looked to me like that quote indicts SBF since she jumped on Eddie's self vote.

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I assumed that's why TTTT agreed with me on that post.

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Yea TTTT is basically a black box at this point.

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TTTT I could get on board with an SBF lynch as well but I want to hear your reasons first.

Probably won't post for the next 2 days. Have a lot of work.

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Still busy but wanted to comment on this:

Not sure this has to be a 1v1 but I kinda think this might actually be towny from Lowell. Scum typically don't show this bravado around a 1v1 unless it's with their scumbuddy for scum theater.

I had the same initial impression of this post but given the aftermath I'm not so sure. He made the post with 7(?) days left until deadline so I think an experienced scum would be able to read the mood and figure that town wasn't going to immediately pick sides.

Unsure what to make of Lowell's recent posts which repeat the sentiment however.

Will come back with more thoughts tomorrow.

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Sorry for the absence all. Will read what I missed and post thoughts.

I want to be on the record as thinking Lowell's last post is terrible though.

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@TTTT - I'd like for you to go back through your notes and explain your later TR on Lowell

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thoughts on my case against frogger? any other game thoughts?

You v Frogger looks TvT. Given the content of your arguments I'd say its largely a clash of playstyles. I disagree with both of your cases but can see them coming from a town mindset.

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good attitude, good content (with just about no filler), rubs me the right way.

Disagree with this. SBFs content has been tunneling the hell out of a few people with bad arguments which I've seen mostly used as a scum strategy.

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@Eddie - at the time of your 313 what arguments that you made against me couldn't have applied equally well to TTTT?

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Sorry for the absence all. Will read what I missed and post thoughts.

I want to be on the record as thinking Lowell's last post is terrible though.

not really sure if I agree; enough people were digging their heels in against the GL wagon

Do you really think enough people dug in their heels between 527 and 543 for that big of a reversal?

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I'm sympathetic to Frogger's comments on the TTTT Bella case. I really only think 285 - 300 is the only thing that would warrant a lynch from her ISO

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@bork - fair enough. This quote:

My 1v1 with GL bores me. GL has permission to continue it, though.

just reminded me of what I said in 432. Seems like he's trying to cash out on the 1v1 and move on.

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Also to all I'll still be fairly busy until Thursday but will at least have time to check the thread and post once a day.

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eddie's is almost worse, 32 posts of...not a lot. he's quoted two short isos, which seems sketch, and there's not a lot of meat to anything.

Bella why didn't you follow up on this if it's almost worse than T?

Seconding this

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@TTTT - that's alright don't worry I can see where you're coming from on some of those.

Still want a Lowell lynch.

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Everything SBF says about Eddie's "opening move" is ridiculous. How are people town reading this?

@Frogger - sorry to hear you're replacing out. Had fun playing with you while it lasted.

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@Eddie - down for an SBF lynch? If you'd like I can go more through her ISO and explain the scumread in depth but you seem to have a TR on her so I'm unsure if you'd want to join in.

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@GL - it was my impression that the Bella wagon appeared when town started coalescing around a Lowell lynch but I could be misreading this. Seems a little suspicious.

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For sure bork. I'll do it tomorrow hopefully when I've finished all my current work.

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@bork - why do you disagree with me on that read? Its weak but I felt that GL was playing much less aggressive than that game and more focused on actual arguments which is why I had a TR there.

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If I recall correctly it was mainly d3 in that game. If I have time I'll look back through it and find some quotes.

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Just saw your last post - yeah that change from that game to now is why I had my TR. I realize he could have changed styles which is why its not super strong, but its still a TR.

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It was based on her comments on Eddie. I'm going more into these tomorrow but I found them shifty.

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Essentially I don't think Eddie expressed any new sentiments in his read on her before 288 that he hadn't already expressed before 200 which makes the sudden change seem odd.

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Yea I apologize I have an assignment due at midnight that I'm working on now. If I have energy after I turn it in I'll try to make my post tonight.

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Lol probably shouldn't be checking in on this thread then tbh.

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She gave a response as I recall but it didn't really cover any arguments that specifically came in between 200 and 288 if I'm remembering correctly.

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Yea that was what I was talking about

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Eddie that has been one of the strong tenets of my SR on her so if you can give a compelling answer I'm open to my mind being changed. As bork shows we asked her earlier and didn't really find much.

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Quickly from her ISO this also pinged me:

I'll let Cane elaborate and will comment on any differences in what I perceived.

Seems kind of like "Let Eddie offer an explanation so that I can fit my story to what he says"

Alright I do seriously have to get off for tonight. Will come back after my work is done with more on SBF.

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Finished my work.

VOTE: SBF

Eddie I want you to explain your take on the timing issue because I don't buy what SBF is saying. The sentiments you express in 280 and 287 (i.e. SBF isn't doing anything) you express equally well in 174.

Heading to bed so will have to make my longer post tomorrow. I've already covered the basic reasons why I'm SRing SBF (although if anyone wants me to elaborate I will) so I was mainly just planning on going point by point through her case on me.

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@Frogger - I've covered the main reasons for my SR in the last page - timing issue and 569 pinging me. Do you want me to elaborate on anything?

@bork - SBF conveniently left out the fact that I have a scum newbie game as well (although I replaced in d2 and was lynched soon after)

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Bork, I actually go to school in Chicago not Denver so it was due ~15 min ago. I just finished getting ready for bed but I can stay up a bit and make the post. I realize that time is definitely a factor here.

Frogger, I asked this earlier, but do you want me to elaborate on any of the reasons I've already mentioned for SRing SBF? I feel like I covered my main points already so was planning on just going over her case on me but it sounds like you want something more.

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Frogger's not getting back to me so I guess I'll just write up everything. Wall incoming.

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Haha sorry about that Frogger didn't mean to be pushy just trying to get to bed early. Okay I'm covering everything.

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Using spoilers so its easy on the eyes:

Spoiler: Reasons I'm scumreading SBF

I already mentioned the timing issue before but its essentially this: SBF's read on Eddie shifts drastically from 200 to 288. SBF claims this was because she saw Eddie's followthrough from his "opening move" which made her TR her. I don't buy it. Everything Eddie says about SBF between 200 and 288 is stuff that he already said before. We've asked SBF this a couple times:

@SBF: more specifically, what changed between 200 and now, considering I think Eddie's trajectory on you has not changed one iota since then and you don't seem to be townreading him for any other reason

Cane's opening was, as I see it, a reaction test. Scum love easy targets, and giving one to them is a very effective way to hunt.

where she pretty much avoids the substance of the question and more recently in post 709 which she kind of responds to by saying:

Essentially I don't think Eddie expressed any new sentiments in his read on her before 288 that he hadn't already expressed before 200 which makes the sudden change seem odd.

This just shows that you aren't reading this game with the intent to sort. There's nothing strange about the timing of 288. It closely follows 280 and 287. That's called satisfaction.

But if you look at the posts here's what Eddie says in 280 and 287:

this is why I'm voting sbf. she has done 0. 0. she came back and produced nothing. I want her to take stances and start posting.

sbf has done nothing and it's 12 pages in. is that normal for her? we've never played before.

And here's what he says in 174 (before she started TRing him):

sbf is a good vote for now. he has basically checked in and that's it. this game is new but God damn 2 short posts with no content is not enough. voting will pressure him to actually do something - or justify voting me at the the very least.

Pretty much the same right? I don't buy that 280 and 287 caused SBF to changer her mind about Eddie because they show some follow through that 174 doesn't. More likely that SBF realized her initial vote on Eddie looked opportunistic and was unjustified and is making up reasons to explain her behavior. This is pretty blatantly contradictory and she's avoided directly answering the question this whole time.

Second reason I mentioned was this post:

Cane is obviously Town by the way they've reacted to this slot. I appreciate the opening maneuver, having seen the follow-through.

Explain this further

I'll let Cane elaborate and will comment on any differences in what I perceived.

Seems pretty ridiculous. This easily allows scum!SBF to come in after Eddie's post and say "Yeah I saw all that cuz I'm town" while town!SBF gets no real benefit to this. She tries to play it off by saying:

Please. Cane and I have been picking at each other warily and the fact that we both actually

did

have something to say about it after not wanting to let each other off the hook screams of Town paranoia, not manipulation.

But why would she be worried about "letting Eddie off the hook" when he's already one of her strongest TRs? This idea that it was based on town paranoia is also very contrary to at least how I read the initial post. Its just kind of silly.

Additional reasons for my SR are her case on GL seems hackneyed and fake (GL covers this a little and I don't have time to wade through all those walls of text) and her case on me seems not too substantial. She just repeats that I'm not sorting to the extent that the word become meaningless.

Finally, wanted to comment on this:

It's way out of left field and just fucking weird to happen now of all times and it's throwing me off because i don't see any obvious scum motivation there or any indication that i'd be an easy mislynch to push on D2 if she gets her SS lynch and SS flips town; why not TTTT or Bella

I think the motivation is for towncred by pushing non-standard lynches (which all of SBF's votes have been so far). This definitely reminded me of this post:

I tend to TR players who seem to be thinking independently
and don't appear to be

trying

to look town
lowell has that vibe going on

and I think its possible SBF is trying to play to this kind of sentiment. This isn't directly indicting, just an explanation for some behavior I saw.

Spoiler: SBF's case on me

Here I'm just going point by point in her big post on me:

This slot's play so far is leagues from its Town meta. It has been dodging questions, shopping for lynches, practically

refusing

to hunt and sort, buddying (with Bork), and displaying the type of blind confidence that typically comes from only PRs and scum.

Re: my meta, this is literally my third town game. My meta isn't going to be super established. If you compare my second town game to my first town game you'd see a lot of meta differences there as well (focusing less on posting reads lists etc.). I'm trying out a couple different styles of play to see which one I like (I mention this to EL somewhere in my last game, forget where but I can find the post if requested) so of course my play isn't going to be the same from game to game. Moreover, SBF completely ignores my scum game which I am also not playing like at all. The sorting point is silly. Most of the questions I ask are designed to help sort players. More on this below

As stated before, I struggle to see how the progression quoted below comes from town!Space. This slot has little to no paranoia and just as meagre a desire to hunt scum.

*** quotes my progression with GL ***

I explained the evolution of my read there to bork earlier but just to be clear: I thought some arguments GL made were bad but wasn't sure if they were AI, GL questioned me about this and I explained, then I decided GL was playing much more level-headedly when confronted compared to last game so gave him a TR. I don't really see how that is too unreasonable.

A few other quotes that ping me:

At this point my vote is probably going to stay between Lowell and SBF for the remainder of the day.

I cannot find Town motivation in this post. Where is the desire to sort and hunt?

I say that I think scum is in Lowell and SBF as she says I have no desire to sort? I've already sorted and have strong suspicions that those two are scum - that's why my vote is staying between them. Of course it can change but at that point I had strong enough SRs that that was unlikely

good attitude, good content (with just about no filler), rubs me the right way.

Disagree with this. SBFs content has been tunneling the hell out of a few people with bad arguments which I've seen mostly used as a scum strategy.

Doesn't address any of my content, just shades me and misreps my play. (I wasn't tunneled, tunneling is not a scum strategy. Space knows this according to this game, where Titus tunnels as Town.)

In the same game GL was tunneling Titus d2 which led to him avoiding my push to lynch Revan. I was more talking about my first newbie where scum!Howard tunnels Joshz all game so he can mislynch him before lylo and look consistent. SBF seemed to be doing a similar strategy here although its not super AI.

I'm sympathetic to Frogger's comments on the TTTT Bella case. I really only think 285 - 300 is the only thing that would warrant a lynch from her ISO

I do not believe this is how Town sorts. Town sorts by alignment, not by lynchability.

This is a huge stretch.

I pointed it out because it looked to me like that quote indicts SBF since she jumped on Eddie's self vote.

This strikes me as much like calling out a scumslip by twisting words to mean something they don't. Space didn't push me for this, but even forcing the statement to produce that conclusion is the kind of fake logic I do not want to see from Town.

I quoted it because I thought it was cute not because I thought it was super AI.

Sorry to everyone that has to read through all that.

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This is why I don't like writing walls.

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Frogger, I did look at 207 but still didn't find it significantly different from the other posts. SBF failing to mention it ever also didn't help. At this point SBF has been so opaque towards us repeatedly asking the question above I really don't know what else to do.

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Signing off for the night. Hoping to wake up to an SBF wagon tomorrow.

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At this point I'm fine with voting Lowell or SBF. I'll also vote Bella I guess but only if we have no other options.

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@Eddie - any updates on your reread of me/SBF?

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Why do y'all think 872/873 is scummy?

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Hm, I guess that's fair but not enough to push GL into my lynchpool.

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Wasn't paying too much attention to it last night let me reread real quick

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Eh, I can see where both of you are coming for when it comes to the actual arguments but it doesn't make me think SBF is more likely to be town.

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Wait isn't she just at L-1?

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^ this is more convincing

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VOTE: Lowell

@GL - it was my impression that the Bella wagon appeared when town started coalescing around a Lowell lynch but I could be misreading this. Seems a little suspicious.

I wanna flip this.

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Also am fine with Eddie's vote

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Aside from GL, do you think there were any scum on the Bella wagon?

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? I never talked about lynching bork. Do you mean SBF?

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Why aren't you voting, TTTT?

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NK doesn't really prove anything. Bork was the obvious NK no matter who the scumteam is. When GL, Frogger, and I are scumreading SBF and TTTT has expressed willingness to lynch her d1 there's no reason to NK her.

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@TTTT - what's your point in 963?

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@Frogger - why is 942 scummy even granting that Eddie has no reason to assume he'd be NK?

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And in all the games I've played with Frog I've gotten a pretty good read on him. If he's scum this game he's got me fooled.

How do you reconcile this with Frogger being in 3/4 of your possible scumteams?

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@Eddie - what was your opinion on SBF's TTTT case earlier today?

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I'm liking GL's last few posts a lot.

Lowell and Eddie are utterly obvious Town.

Yah why don't you explain this one cause IMO they're the top two candidates for scum.

I want to hear an answer to this question. Lowell, SBF and Eddie are all townreading each other but I feel they haven't given great reasons.

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@GL - I'd like some thoughts about Frogger from you. Explain the apparent TR.

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I'd policy lynch Eddie Cane right now in all honesty I hate quitters, but if you don't I'm cool to flip any of tttt/gl/frogger/ss.

I'd rather not the latter.

Can you clarify this?

Also if you're not feeling the game you should probably replace out. Advocating your own lynch is rarely pro-town.

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Pagetop!

I've Modkilled for less you know!

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@GL - agreed with most of your post on Frogger. Nothing really to point out.

This setup disincentivizes bussing a lot so I'm trying to break down everyone's strong or unexplained TRs.

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Yea in this setup we should never no lynch right?

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Anyway it doesn't look like a ton is happening. I think its cuz bork died.

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Check the setup Eddie scum can't no kill.

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My reasoning is if we lynch scum today then great, if we lynch town today we're still better than no lynch because our lynch tomorrow will decide the game and having the smallest pool of suspects maximizes the chance of hitting scum.

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I can see what you're saying but I think a 1v4 would be better than having to find a scum tomorrow with mislynch today. Reason is that scum will never bus tomorrow so all 3 townies would have to be together on a lynch which is pretty difficult

[Sobolev Space]

Agreed. What did you think of Lowell's last post?

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TTTT you expressed willingness to lynch SBF yesterday. Do you still feel that way?

Also pagetop!

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@mod - V/LA until Thursday 3/16 due to finals.

Will try to post at least once every 24-48 hours but can't make any promises

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@GL - I'll review Eddie's ISO after my econ final on Tuesday. I had a prior TR on him and liked his interactions with the Bella wagon but I can see what you're saying with the above quotes to an extent.

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Skimmed Eddie's ISO. Don't think he's scum. He's been taking strong stances. Today he's been a bit more passive but it feels genuine.

Frogger/Eddie's argument above is dumb. Eddie was referring to me when he said "he asked me a question" but Frogger thought he was referring to Lowell (possibly because of the pronouns). Please stop fighting you're both town.

@GL - I'll review Eddie's ISO after my econ final on Tuesday. I had a prior TR on him and liked his interactions with the Bella wagon but I can see what you're saying with the above quotes to an extent.

What did you like about his interaction with the Bella wagon?

I thought his hammer and posts around it were decent and expressed sentiments I also felt. His level of engagement seemed fine given Bella's absence.

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@Lowell - since you liked SBF's description of me so much please explain how you feel I've been shopping for lynches.

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Like your 1058 ignores his pretty strong pushes on me/Frogger d1 and his strong TR on SBF and (to a lesser extent) Lowell. It just means that I disagree with your case on him so I'm reverting to my prior TR on his slot.

And no I'm not hammering Eddie today unless its our only option at deadline.

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UNVOTE:

@SBF/Lowell - why are you both TRing TTTT? I can pretty easily see a GL/TTTT scumteam at this point.

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I'm generally trying to figure out why we have two wagons but neither of the wagonees are voting their CW. It makes me think that at least one of them is definitely scum, but I'm having a hard time thinking that it would point to a {SS, Eddie} team.

Why is this weird? I've given my reasons for townreading Eddie. Since we're close to deadline and it looks like one of our wagons is going through I'd honestly prefer it to be mine since I think there are more scum on Eddie's wagon and I'm more likely to be mislynched in lylo.

[Sobolev Space]

Eddie's got it right. I see it like 100% chance I flip town, 85% chance Eddie flips town. But in lylo Eddie has a 30% chance of being lynched while I have a 50-60% of being lynched. I think I'm more likely to get lynched in lylo. Frogger's tunneling Eddie but not irresponsible enough to vote before discussion and I think town will have an easier time persuading him to lynch scum than they will have persuading SBF/Lowell not to vote for me.

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@GL - my read evolution was basically: Frogger's town, Eddie's town d1. SBF's posting today is making me begrudgingly admit she's probably town (which sucks because I'd enjoy lynching her). Moderate SR on you, TTTT, and Lowell. Your recent posting pushed you to my primary scumread and since I can't see you buddied with Lowell based on d1 it's most likely you/TTTT

[Sobolev Space]

It's not dramatic. I still wanted Lowell lynched over her d1. Today I realized that a lot of my SR was a reaction to her abrasive posting style which is really NAI. Although there are a couple things I'm worried about I can see a town motive behind most of her posts.

[Sobolev Space]

It wasn't all bullshit just wasn't as important as I thought it was.

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Sorry Frogger missed your earlier questions

Your recent posting pushed you to my primary scumread

What exactly about GL's posting pushed him to your primary scum read?

Posts 1100 and 1101 really pinged me and reminded me of last game. Bad logic and seems like GL was trying to line up lynching Eddie today and me tomorrow. Don't really like 1130 either

I thought his hammer and posts around it were decent and expressed sentiments I also felt. His level of engagement seemed fine given Bella's absence.

Explain the engagement. Why is the level of engagement town?

Was it because he's posting, or just interacting with people? Interacting with people and posting enough doesn't make one town.

I was talking about his engagement with the Bella wagon. I think he was a reasonable distance away from it, which shows him not being opportunistic and realizing that Bella can't defend herself, while also not purposely avoiding it.

[Sobolev Space]

VOTE: TTTT

I can get behind this.

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GL - I don't see anything especially bad in the Eddie post you quoted. Replace Frogger with Lowell and Lowell with Eddie and I felt pretty much the same at that point d1.

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I was saying that if the lynch is gonna be between me and Eddie I'd prefer me. I'd prefer lynching GL or TTTT over both of those options however.

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Did you seriously just hammer Eddie?

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Are you fucking kidding me?

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Any other last thoughts Eddie? What did you think of the hammer?

p-edit nvm

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My reads yesterday were terrible. Will do some rereading of the thread and ISO eddie.

I'm surprised GL was the NK. I thought Eddie's 1180 was a signal to his partner about his kill preferences.

@SBF - what are the reads you wanted to wait until today to give?

[Sobolev Space]

Sure SBF I'll give you my tentative readslist. From towniest to scummiest: Frogger > TTTT > SBF > Lowell.

I was already TRing Frogger and Eddie's flip just confirms this. I highly doubt he and Eddie were bussing each other this hard given how dangerous that can be in this setup. His interactions with Eddie also felt genuine.

TTTT is the one I'm least confident about. His vote on Eddie didn't look like a bus and his frustration with the game felt legitimate yesterday. I want to see what he has to say today though before being sure.

Given SBF and Eddie's buddying I can definitely see them as partners. The hammer makes sense from scum (I want my partner dead today so there's no risk of lynching them tomorrow) but seems like a risky play. Also the initial interactions with Eddie seemed hard to fake so I'm conflicted.

Lowell seems the scummiest. He's been providing not a ton of content, coasting on SBF and Eddie's TRs of him, and dodging questions all game. He and Eddie were also hard TRing each other without really giving reasons which looks scum to me.

[Sobolev Space]

Want to hear what frogger has to say.

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@Frogger - I'm not sure if those TTTT/Eddie interactions would really be too hard to fake. Why do you think its not scum-scum?

@SBF - why the unvote?

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Hmm. I don't really have enough experience to verify that but it seems plausible. TTTTs catch up posts will probably affect my read on him the most.

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Re SBF: I forgot about the interactions yesterday. That is a decent point. I'm still not sure about the hammer, I can see it coming from both alignments. I'd like SBF to explain it in more depth since it honestly just puzzles me.

[Sobolev Space]

Alright. When you have more time can you give me a better rundown of the frogger read? I feel like I must be missing something because I just don't see how frogger/Eddie as partners would be SRing each other that hard since day 1. Also, what made you change your mind on Lowell?

[Sobolev Space]

SBF your last two posts seem very genuine and towny. A couple questions. What meta on Frogger is contributing to your read of him? And why do you think TTTT is all but conftown now? His posts today haven't really done much to affect my read on him. I want to see what he says after finishing his read through.

[Sobolev Space]

OMG you guys left me a pagetop!!!

<3

Dammit didn't even notice

[Sobolev Space]

Lowell you were scum reading me pretty hard yesterday. What changed your mind? Was it just the GL nightkill?

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@TTTT - any more updates on your reread?

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How was I bleeding town that game? Most people had me as null until d2.

How do you feel my play from that game is different than my play here?

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Cool. Since its no longer a hammer:

VOTE: Lowell

[Sobolev Space]

OK then

VOTE: Sobolev Space
almost a coin flip between SS and Lowell
but I'm going with my early Lowell TR

(Any reads?)

Lowell and SS are town.
never lynch them
frogger makes me nervous
but I'm intrigued by his read on bella

[Sobolev Space]

Lol I forgot that post existed.

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Just thought it was funny that you now want to lynch the players you said to never lynch.

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>2 days to deadline. I'd still prefer a Lowell lynch but if we get to deadline and I'm the only one at L-1 I'll self hammer.

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I think I believe the second scenario more. This format rewards bussing more than a normal 2-scum setup, I would say.

Can you explain this? IMO in this setup bussing is bad because if scum can't get their partner lynched d1 or d2 they have to do a 180 on their read on them d3 which looks manufactured.

[Sobolev Space]

hey btw idr if I said it in this game or not but assuming I'm still alive i'll be v/LA for most of March. going away for almost 3 weeks. I will have Internet access so I'll still be here but it'll be limited. 7th-25th to be exact. just a heads up.

Don't worry Eddie I'll make sure to get you lynched before that

This post is not an accurate representation of my view of Eddie at the time. It was pretty clearly a joke.

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@Lowell - I'm willing to work with you to an extent but my reads today are all over the place. Looking back I'm pretty sure TTTT is town however. Who else do you think could be scum?

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I'm reconsidering SBF to be honest.

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@Lowell - I'm willing to work with you to an extent but my reads today are all over the place. Looking back I'm pretty sure TTTT is town however. Who else do you think could be scum?

So you think I'm town?

Ugh. I'm conflicted. I've been scumreading you all game but I feel like today scum!Lowell would probably just try to push me instead of going for all these other random lynches.

I also have the uneasy feeling that one of SBF/TTTT is scum and trying to line up you and me for lynches today and tomorrow to win.

[Sobolev Space]

@Lowell - I'm willing to work with you to an extent but my reads today are all over the place. Looking back I'm pretty sure TTTT is town however. Who else do you think could be scum?

ah, here...

what about the catchup makes him town?

Basically this:

Because I don't think you're a douchebag who strategically replaces out then in again like that.

I have mixed feelings about using this as a basis for reads which I can talk about post-game but its convincing me for now.

[Sobolev Space]

@TTTT- saying you're the "obvious hammer" is scummy as hell.

Why do you think this?

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I also have the uneasy feeling that one of SBF/TTTT is scum and trying to line up you and me for lynches today and tomorrow to win.

This is bullshit.
at least at it applies to me.

Fair enough I was mainly referring to SBF there as you're a TR for me. What do you think about it as it applies to SBF?

[Sobolev Space]

I know. I've honestly felt pretty lost on reads since Eddie's flip. I've accepted that I'm almost certainly going to be the lynch today and am just trying to steer the conversation so that town can win in lylo.

[Sobolev Space]

Gl town. Sorry I couldn't be more help today.

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Lol sorry Lowell.

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TTTT town. Frogger town. One of SBF/Lowell is remaining scum and I'm leaning SBF but who knows.

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0%. I'm not a dick who would string y'all along like this.

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What do you want from me Lowell?

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Lowell is town.

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I gotchu

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Well played Eddie and Frogger. Fun game and definitely a good learning experience. Hope to play with y'all in the future.

Great modding, Ari!

[Sobolev Space]

The problem, as I see it, is that scum can't fake a replace out/back in like that without being ethically dubious. Everything else town can do scum can (theoretically) fake but for them to do that they have to request a replace out knowing that they'll eventually cancel it which means making the mod do work (looking for a replacement etc.) in bad faith. Maybe some scum do this to get an advantage, but it strikes me as a little unethical.

I don't really have a problem with what TTTT did because I can understand where he was coming from, but I do think something like a rule saying that all replace outs are final when night starts would make sense.