Hi Mina, bbmolla, ETL, Ms Marangal. Don't think I know the others.
Twin Trap (Game Over) [TM2015]
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Alchemist's posts so far look like he's trying to appear involved without really adding anything - he's asking questions and taken a side on a couple of things, but seems to do so in a way that doesn't add any pressure or lead to any interesting followup. He's my best guess for scum so far. Does anyone (apart from serra) get the same impression?
I don't think any of the early attacks are very interesting; Mara's first post looks like a fairly normal attempt to give the game some focus, ETL seeming jumpy doesn't seem unusual if skype mafia is anything to go by, and BPC seems mildly town to me. I don't think he's been any more wishy-washy than normal, and in fact know more about what he thinks than I do most others. Is that based on a specific meta?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Alchemist wrote:@Patrick, what is the main difference you see between BPC and myself?
I don't think the two of you have been similar in your play so far. Early on he seems to be trying to get involved, points out a few things that stand out to him, asks some questions, etc. I don't think his indecision is much of a tell either way this early, and he immediately strikes me as a player who probably posts like that in all his games. I think someone else mentioned that as well. You've made a fair number of posts yourself, but alot of the early ones seem like you're trying to appear curious rather than gathering useful info or trolling for reactions. All of 24, 45 and 55 feel awkward to an extent, and that's without being picky. I can easily imagine you as scum nervously approaching the thread and making those posts.
Currently like my vote on Alchemist but in no rush for a L-1. The wagon is interesting; Mina and Quilford to an extent both look like they got on after it became popular without expressing strong suspicion before. Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect. Mina I don't feel that comfortable about; easy to imagine her as scum either bussing alchemist or just attacking the easy target. My team all seem to have concerns about her, though CES might just be doing it because he wants me to troll her.
BPC looking more town. Hit on alot of my trains of thought just there. Serra no clue, can easily see as either alignment. Mara and ETL look decent to me early on, just on gut. I can tell I'm going to have to be not lazy and actually read some people's other games over the Easter break, because I feel like I know very little about all of your forum games.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Patrick wrote:Quilford feels townish in tone and a bunch of people seem to think he's clearly town based on meta, which I'm inclined to respect.
Actually. Is this just you Mina? Not that I dismiss your opinion, I just had in my head more people saying it.
Mina wrote:(although couldn't you just ask CES that?)
I did, he thinks you're good. I had been hoping you'd be very easy to read.Primpod 11:13 pm
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alchemist wrote:Where do you get the sense Mina is scummier than Quilford? Tbh I get the sense Quilford is latching onto Mina here, and my team and I are in agreement that scumQuilford probably means TownMina. Also, have you looked at Molla's posts?
Not alot solid behind it, Quilford just kind of looks like a townie who is comfortably and organically pointing out things that get his attention and trying to get reactions out of people. There's also Mina's meta on him as being easy to read - I rate meta very highly as a way of reading people, which is why I feel uncomfortable not having much of it here; most of my forum games were played a good few years ago and knowing alot of the people I played with. I don't feel like Mina would be making up that meta even if scum, so I'm happy to give it some weight since its in line with my read.
bbmolla's posts seem like what I'd expect from having attended a couple of real life meets with him. I agree he shamelessly wagoned you but that seems reasonable if he's town who just agrees with what I said?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Mina wrote:(You could have also tried the "Boy, Mina is sooooo scary and unlynchable, and so dangerous with her Rising Star/Paragon team" approach, but too late, I guess.)
CES recommended snark, but I'm not feeling snarky atm. I look forward to seeing your waffling at some point though.Primpod 11:13 pm
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2 town on Fenchurch, 2 town on me, no scum. I'd have started this kind of thing if the game had been boring.Mina wrote:However, as a little reward for anyone who opened this spoiler, I'm just noting here that someone on Patrick's team probably put down scum tokens, because I think he'd have claimed with an all-town token distribution. You're welcome.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I've seen plenty of games where someone gets wagoned for weak early play, never gets a chance to recover and is lynched, only to flip town. Probably anyone with any experience has. And alot of the time, I find myself hating the herd mentality and the obvious confirmation bias that flies around those day 1 mislynches, as people just paint their target in a scummy light and ignore protown signs or potential protown signs. When I see that from the outside I facepalm, when I'm in the game I often have doubts that the day 1 wagonee is scum, even if I'm on them. I read their posts and often just get a gut feeling they're going to be lynched and flip town.
The thing is, in this game, I don't read Alchemists posts and get a gut feeling that he's going to come back as town. I'm nowhere near certain he's scum, but I definitely don't buy that just talking alot makes him town, which you seem to be implying, Mara. I'd like you to back up that read with something more solid.
Quilford does seem town in his recent posts. I also hate people suspecting me so I can identify with that. Pretty happy that CES and CDB agree with me.Primpod 11:13 pm
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serra wrote:But the average 9p game also doesn't get to 5 or 6 pages in a few hours. The suggestion that the first pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly is nonsense in light of the general speed of f2f, marathon, and chat room games. I don't like this as a defence of BPC.
I just don't think he was being especially wishy washy - I'm surprised you found this interesting. I don't get where you think I said that the first 5-6 pages should be treated differently because they happened quickly.
serra wrote:I'm not sure she's right, but I do like mara going entirely against the grain.
This makes me think she's town too. If alchemist flips scum I don't think this was an attempt to bail him out; I think she might have picked molla in that case.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Mina wrote:And I'm sort of caught between not wanting to derail a potential lynch on scum right now (not to mention deal with all the "Why didn't you push him harder?" pestering tomorrow) and...basically how Patrick says he doesn't feel about Alchemist.
Can you clarify what that means? From your post it seems like you have quite alot of doubt.
Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing. I did a small look at his meta and found his posts in the early game of White Flag to be different to this; more direct and purposeful. Scum meta is trickier because he only has two games on record - one where he was an SK and one was his first game onsite. But when I don't feel like death warmed up I'll be looking at that. tbh I was looking kind of hoping his town game would look different, which is not the way to go about it.
ETLs catchup looks fine i guess? I hate how reliant I apparently am on meta when I play mafia. I didn't catch anything that felt off.
Mina wrote:(Yes, I know we're sort of attacking each other for similar things here. The difference is I'm obviously town and can do whatever I want! ^_^ Neener neener.
Why? Genuine question, feel free to self-meta.
@Quilford: your suspicion of Alchemist is well documented, and I don't think cutting down anymore of his posts is being very useful. Talk about some other players for a bit. He's not suddenly going to disappear.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Ok so I just lost a whole ton of post ffs.
In response to Mara, you're changing what I said in a way that makes it look worse. I said that I often get a gut feeling about the day 1 mislynch being town, especially if inexperienced, and that I actually don't get that feeling here, which might mean the first wagon is correct. Your portrayal makes me sound like a rabid squirrel.Primpod 11:13 pm
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I really really want to write off Quilford as obvious town, but a couple of things give me pause; his vote on Alchemist after saying he might be newbtown, even though nothing much happened in between, and how long he spent just arguing with Alchemist. If Quilford is town, his reason for voting Alchemist then was simply reconsidering in light of what I wrote, which is plausible but the timing catches my attention. Overall he sounds like chilled town most of the time and most likely thats because he simply is town, but don't rule him out from playing a good scumgame.
Mara I also think is likely town, and she will probably piss me off incredibly this game unless Alchemist gets lynched as scum and I'm nightkilled. Her view of the game seems off but pretty genuine, and reminds me of the only forum game of hers I've read, mykonians maneuvre mafia. Her vote on CDB there feels similar to her vote on me here.
serra I could easily imagine being scum. Reading his exchange more closely with Mina, I think his accusation of Mina word-twisting is a stretch. His comments on liking BPC's point against Mina left his wiggle room to pursue her or to sit back, and granted some people just post like this, but I don't think Mina is misrepping anything at all there.
ETL meh. Early on she feels natural, and CDB told me to never lynch her because of her post at the bottom pf page 1. Her recent posts don't really make me feel anything.
Mina's posting looks good, but more than most I think she would be capable of playing well as scum and producing quite detailed posts. I didn't like her push on BPC early, do like her attempt to get Quilford to talk about players other than Alchemist. I'm not especially happy with the number of townreads on her.Primpod 11:13 pm
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This is maneuvre mafia, where I think Mara seems similarish in tone:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=39330Primpod 11:13 pm
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Currently I can't think of a better place for my vote than Alchemist. I think serrapaladin comes closest, but I've changed my mind a few times on whether his last two posts are genuinely scummy or just a different perspective on some things. No other vote really appeals to me at the moment.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Quilford wrote:I am given slight pause by how easily he dismissed a lot of the early game in #121, and I'm unconvinced by his read on serra, but on the whole I think he's likely to be Town and at the very least isn't somewhere we should be going with today's lynch
I wasn't interested in trying to make hay about a bunch of stuff that struck me as null, especially when there was more something interesting to go after.
FWIW, I'm also unconvinced by my read on serra.Primpod 11:13 pm
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ETL wrote:oh oh and patrick's read on me is so soft and nervous and i dont like it.
Not nervous, your large catchup post didn't tell me anything about you. Your most recent post at least looks like you're trying to do something.Primpod 11:13 pm
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ETL wrote:I get really skeevy about people who seem to be afraid of passing a read on me. Like I said early on, I'm inclined to think anyone brave enough to attack me outright probably isn't scum.
I think that seems pretty self-centred as a policy, but it's possible you've found it to be true over a good number of games. I'm not especially afraid of passing a read on you, but I'm more interested in a bunch of others than I am you (Alchemist, serra, Mina for starters). When looking at 8 others, none of which I've played a game of forum mafia with before, I'm unlikely to come up with very definitive reads on every single one, and I'm going to put time into metagaming any of those before you, most likely. I don't think that's a very unusual approach, most reads lists seem to have some "meh idk" type gaps, especially on day 1.
I think your last few posts look like you're trying to discern some alignments, in a way that didn't really show in your catchup.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Alchemist wrote:Lastly, she says a wagon that forms and sticks like mine with no counterwagon is a sure sign that it's on Town.
If you're scum, I think its entirely possible your partner feels compelled to push against you.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Alchemist wrote:Frankly I'm not surprised at your reaction here. If I were scum in your place, and the guy scumreading me had the impressive think-tank of Titus, ABR, and BBT behind him, I'd probably be shitting my pants too.
Did someone on your team suggest saying something like this?Primpod 11:13 pm
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BPC wrote:Patrick wrote:
Tbh I agree that if I only had the second half of his iso he wouldn't be that suspicious. But I do think scum are often at their most nervous in the opening posts, and I wouldn't expect scum alchemist to keep posting pure filler after being called on that very thing.
I wouldn't expect town alchemist to do this either. I know I've had a couple games where I started out mostly bullshitting around because I wanted to have fun and kept real game talk light. Not saying it's a good idea, but I can understand it at least.
To clarify, I'm making an argument there for why I think he could still be scum despite the obvious upswing in content. I think maybe you read it the other way.
BPC wrote:@Patrick: In your post 412, you mentioned reads on most players in the game and mentioned me a few times, but with no read. What's your read on me?
Mildly town. I can elaborate on this if wanted, but I'm interested in why you wanted my read on you?Primpod 11:13 pm
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I took a look at Alchemists posts in some completed games and I think his early posts here seem closer to his scumgame. His play in Elemental Mafia had the same wariness and his play in a bunch of town games seemed more relaxed early on. Would appreciate someone else (probably not Quilford) looking at these and checking my vision.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Mina wrote:Apparently, I'll have to come right out and say that Patrick looks really town, and this wagon is bad.
I've floated it around a bit in our skypechat and got no real comments either way, but I have to ask; how are you reading me so comfortably? This is probably pretty annoying if you are just town who's playing rather well, but your approach to me is not what I expected at all.Primpod 11:13 pm
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This page makes a very sorry sight.
Mara: Is there anything to your serra town read apart from his response to you initially? To me his behaviour on alchemist roughly sums up what you're voting me for, so can you flesh that out a bit when you get back.
Mina: Are you weighing up alchemist and serrapaladin in your mind? If it were up to you alone, which one would you rather lynch?Primpod 11:13 pm
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Mara wrote:
Patrick wrote:Mara: Is there anything to your serra town read apart from his response to you initially? To me his behaviour on alchemist roughly sums up what you're voting me for, so can you flesh that out a bit when you get back
Not really no, but tomorrow I am probably gonna vote.park on molla the entire day
The point is more that you can't fathom how a genuine scumhunter wouldn't have more doubts about alchemist, while town-reading serrapaladin who I don't think has shown the slightest doubt about alchemist, nor much curiosity overall.
Why the bbmolla hatred for faking a hammer?Primpod 11:13 pm
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In post 542, Mina wrote:Also, WHY IS SERRA TOWN?
The masses they want to knowPrimpod 11:13 pm
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BPC, if scum, is playing quite well so far. I like or neutral on most of his contributions and he usually hits the right notes for me, sometimes before I've put them into the thread. I agree that Mara's reactions aren't especially scummy but I could see him thinking it as town.Primpod 11:13 pm
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bbmolla wrote:I think it's Serra/Alch
I think Mara is off with her reads.
This would be great and would make plenty of sense of the game. Most games aren't that easy but I don't have a better theory right now.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Mara, I know it seems crazy, but some of us are actually here trying to win this game as town while you're trolling us, entering yourself for team mafia and then claiming for no reason at all. I watched your painful play in maneuvre, where you pursued CDB all of day 1 while he tried to lynch scum who DIDN'T LOOK THAT DIFFERENT to alchemist right now, and then watched you fake claim a roleblock on him because you were that sure you were right. I thought maybe it was a one-off, but you do you actually do this in every game you play?
Seriously, what happens when I'm dead as town? You just sit on bb and do nothing?Primpod 11:13 pm
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I'm not in a great mind to decide, but I think ETL could be scum. Push on me is beyond terrible and I think she could easily pull out a few curse words as scum. Not for today, but her play is pretty disgusting.Primpod 11:13 pm
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Alchemist wrote:Titus is wanting me to sheep Mara on Patrick just because she was confident enough to claim early.
I think Titus is a decent player, and have a hard time thinking she would advise any sheeping of Mara given what Mara has just done.Primpod 11:13 pm
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ETL wrote:because he's being a soft waffley pansy while sitting on a leading wagon
I think this is turning to insults more than anything, but why do you say that? I've given plenty of reads, throughout the game and this evening even as Mara is doing her best to throw. Is literally your only reason for voting me that I gave a kinda lazy read on you? That seems super weak.Primpod 11:13 pm
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ETL once again looking like she's trying to get reads on people, Mina makes me feel much better about her this past 24 hours, Quilford doesn't look great in this last stretch but CDB just put him at 96% town and I'm happy to drink the kool aid. bbmolla fairly obvious town after last night.
Minas comment about serra/BPC being weird for attacking her is the exact same thing I was thinking this morning. I do think alchemist/serra would explain serra's extreme lack of motivation, but all we can do now is wait and see. Haven't read the ETL/Quilford thing that closely yet but I don't think it's useful.
If neither alchemist or serra are scum in this game, I have absolutely no idea what's going on. I have a hard time naming one other player as a scumbag, never mind two.Primpod 11:13 pm
chamber can you please come to ukmeet
i would love to finally touch your face-
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Patrick Rantbuddy
- Rantbuddy
- Rantbuddy
- Posts: 7475
- Joined: May 3, 2006
- Location: England
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Patrick Rantbuddy
- Rantbuddy
- Rantbuddy
- Posts: 7475
- Joined: May 3, 2006
- Location: England