Newbie 1827: Baseball Game Over

[Apple Jack]

Sup

[Apple Jack]

Where is everyone?

Anyway for the sake of not ruining the game on day 1, I’m probably just going to ask questions and process information and won’t actually start pushing to lynch my scum reads until day 2. This is unorthodox and some will find it scummy but I’m not really worried about that.

I’d rather make this game enjoyable and I can get wound up tight sometimes.

[Apple Jack]

i'm sorry you misunderstood my post. I am not asking for a free pass. I clearly said I was still going to ask questions and process information aka scum hunt.

and it's going to happen whether you like it or not. You can policy lynch me if you want to but that is what i am going to do and lynching me isn't going to change anything.

[Apple Jack]

idk, go ask all of the people who say that to me or blame me for how unenjoyable games get.

All I do is try to lynch who I think is scum but for some reason people have an issue with it, so i'd rather wait until we have a flip and some actual useful information before tunneling on somebody.

[Apple Jack]

look for games with Robbnva. Beck, and Jake From State Farm and you will see people get really mad at me

[Apple Jack]

nah, not a fan of rvs so won't be rvs voting either

[Apple Jack]

I’m probably just going to ask questions and process information

reading is a good skill to have when playing forum mafia

[Apple Jack]

I’m probably just going to ask questions and process information

reading is a good skill to have when playing forum mafia

Why is the backup mod so active this game?

this game doesn't have a backup mod..

If that was a dig at me, i'd appreciate it if you please don't call me that again.

Thank you.

[Apple Jack]

East coast

[Apple Jack]

Stupid cubs

[Apple Jack]

Well, wilky, it's not exactly fun to come to the active game for the first time and find out that you've been randomly lynched. I'll start defending myself later if I have to.

Also, I'm GMT-5 (UTC-4 because it's daylight savings time).

You do realize you only have 1 vote on you abt it was rvs?

[Apple Jack]

mod at what point will the players who haven't posted yet get prodded or replaced?

[Apple Jack]

I don't know so I guess i will die

[Apple Jack]

man I guess it has been a while since I played in a newbie. I thought ICs were supposed to make this huge speech and teach newbies things.

p.edit - I just rolled a 9 sided die and got 3 and 7 so Taiho and Luca are my early guesses.

[Apple Jack]

no

[Apple Jack]

Anyway for the sake of not ruining the game on day 1, I’m probably just going to ask questions and process information and won’t actually start pushing to lynch my scum reads until day 2

my goal is to basically sit back and process information and scum hunt on my own, but not actually push for any lynches until I have a couple of flips to use. My day 1 play isn't good and I tend to death tunnel which isn't appropriate for a newbie game and since I am on thin ice i'd rather just keep things calm.

day 2 when i have things to analyze i can hopefully be better.

[Apple Jack]

I just I know how I am. It’s better this way. Trust me or don’t.
But once I start voting I start tunneling and then the wheels come off

[Apple Jack]

Having read some stuff, I am of the opinion that this is sincerely held and not alignment indicative, but let me just say that I hope you come around and change your mind. This stance will hurt the town.

Disagree but if at deadline my vote is needed it’ll be there. If somebody is at l-1 and I find myself agreeing with the wagon, my vote may be there.

I’ll still be telling people who i think is scum but usually when I push on people I get ignored and I end up alienating everyone so I’m taking a different approach

[Apple Jack]

also what's everyones views on the interaction between Hooves, Luca and Gameplay on page 1?

Does anyone think CsBlastoise getting over defensive on post #28 or do you think he just doesn't understand RVS?

In the newbie que he said he has experience just not here so his reaction is slightly suspicious to me.

[Apple Jack]

Luckily you haven’t missed anything

[Apple Jack]

English not your first language?

I’m well and you?

[Apple Jack]

mod at what point will the players who haven't posted yet get prodded or replaced?

[Apple Jack]

the rush to leave RVS

[Apple Jack]

But there was no rush to leave rvs. I just don't believe in it personally. I didn't try to stop anyone else from participating in it.

[Apple Jack]

Mafia are not going to get anywhere if everything is non informational.

Mafia are the informed minority. They don’t need things to get informational

[Apple Jack]

but you had time to post elsewhere on site yesterday and today...

[Apple Jack]

ok....how does it end

it can end a variety of ways but typically when somebody's vote becomes serious or when discussion turns serious

[Apple Jack]

So basically you want a free pass for Day 1?

kind of funny you say this, yet you are the one not participating...

[Apple Jack]

I will say Luca makes good points except he misses the obvious point.

Yes I could do this as scum in an attempt to earn town cred, but it would be really risky for me as scum to pull something like this.

It’s hard to play as scum already and drastically changing my play style in a way that attracts attention is a risky move. Scum typically want to blend in. Yes that’s wifom but it’s also true.

It’s possible to town read me but still keep an eye on me. Town reading me early day 1, doesn’t mean that read never changes.

[Apple Jack]

But I’m playing how I want.

[Apple Jack]

Long story short through no fault of my own I wasn’t allowed to play newbie games for a while. This is my first game back and I’m not doing anything to get banned again because I actually like newbie games.

P.edit - I’m not making any excuses. I’m just letting people know in advance what I’m doing. Being transparent is a good thing.

[Apple Jack]

I like his posts so far.

[Apple Jack]

Why would TSQ's lack of info for newcomers be indicative of alignment?

I don’t know if it’s really AI but it is really odd that an IC isn’t behaving like one.

[Apple Jack]

Your reaction to my post was a little over the top Luca. Idk what he’s going on about but you definitely come off suspicious to me.

[Apple Jack]

Not sure how that's over the top?

Because I wasn’t asking for a free pass. It’s an illogical conclusion imo.

[Apple Jack]

Too soon mod. Too soon

[Apple Jack]

I didn’t detect any sarcasm

[Apple Jack]

sorry for neglecting this game. I will read up sometime later today

[Apple Jack]

You have the dumbest prod rules ever.

I’m not calling anyone scum until day 2 so idk how I’m going to fit your criteria to avoid prodges.

[Apple Jack]

tsq isn't posting in the other game I am in with him.

Please don’t even say stuff like this. It’s against the rules to made reference to any ongoing game.

[Apple Jack]

If I were going to vote somebody without even reading it would be the Ic. He isn’t playing like how an IC should and that gives me huge pause.

[Apple Jack]

Ok doesn’t change my opinion though

[Apple Jack]

Ok doesn’t change my opinion though

Why not? Do you think D1 is a crapshoot for just you or for others as well?

Cause I don’t care what other people do. I don’t even care if he’s done it before. It’s suspicious to me.

[Apple Jack]

No I said I’m not going to push any lynches til day 2. I’m still going to give my thoughts on things

[Apple Jack]

Already explained. Don’t pretend like you saw my opening post but not the follow up posts.

[Apple Jack]

Correct except I’ll only really vote d1 if it’s needed to prevent a mislynch.

I’m not really worried about your opinion of it.

[Apple Jack]

I should? I don’t care about anyone’s opinion so why should I care about yours?

[Apple Jack]

[Apple Jack]

On that note I’ll go to bed with a laugh.

[Apple Jack]

Yeah it was harsh. I was in a bad mood cause of something that happened and then I was prodded. Just bad timing. My apologies mod.

[Apple Jack]

@gameplay, your vote is still on the same person from RVS. do you have any better reads or you content with that vote?

[Apple Jack]

Sigh.

I mean he has a point. You just said they are partners on the previous page. Since you think he’s scum he can’t hunt for scum can he?

This is why “scum slip” talk in general but especially in a newbie game is kind of ridiculous. I’ve accused people of “scum slipping “ and they were town. I’ve been accused of it and I was town.

Shea I expect better from you especially if you are town which I’m not sure you are.

[Apple Jack]

You sound like me lol

[Apple Jack]

Yeah, but if you check my meta (as either alignment) you'll see that tunneling is not really a thing I do even when I have strong suspicions. It's only when I think its pretty much guaranteed. I would eat fried dogshit if UC is town in this game.

I’ll have to read your reasons. If it’s the scum slip alone that’s not good enough

[Apple Jack]

Was UC town reading the person he said was a mislynch?

[Apple Jack]

Went back and checked. Yes he did and was legitimately scum reading him.

Ok I’m good with a Uc lynch n

[Apple Jack]

please don't replace out

[Apple Jack]

fine

nevermind, but im still just so annoyed by this game

answer me this.

why did you seem to do a 180 on willy?

[Apple Jack]

sorry wilky

[Apple Jack]

Help clear something up for me UC. You accused wilky of making a case in me

So I'm getting. A scum read on Willy. they tried to make a case on Derpy early on, but when one person found it scummy, he immediately found that person scummy. With not much to go off of, that's what I think.

Here you say Luca did it and wilky didn’t make a case in me which contradicts your earlier accusation

Luca says that Wiky made a case on Derpy when He didn't......This is alarming because it looked like Luca made a case o derpy if anything
Luca rushed Wilky and only focused on Wilky. Guiding a miss lynch is a scum move last i checked


UNVOTE:

I can’t find any post where Luca accuses wilky of making a case on me at all. So if that exists what post number?

The biggest flag is you saying wilky made a case in me and later saying he didn’t.

[Apple Jack]

Also regardless of your alignment you can’t quit cause people want to lynch you. I know it sucks to get lynched but that’s part of the game

[Apple Jack]

So personally I like UC and Wilky as scum.

I honestly don’t know how Uc can appropriately respond to my question but I’ll definitely let him try.

Wilky is because I just read Luca’s iso and while he did seem like a minor bird repeating his question over and over. I honestly agree with that question and I don’t feel wilky answerd it appropriately.

Game is just being a difficult player and it seems intentional which is annoying but probably town. Still not sold on the IC but for now I’ll put him as prob town. The rest idk yet.

[Apple Jack]

My gut says wilky is scum. Uc was going after wilky and he got lynched. Luca was going after wilky and he got killed and that post that wilky made that Luca kept attacking, I can’t see coming from town.

The hammer by cs is bad also though.

For now

VOTE: wilky

[Apple Jack]

Oh and shea is on my radar also.

[Apple Jack]

Analyzing NKs is mostly WIFOM.

And in my experience mostly accurate

[Apple Jack]

Do you really think I would put myself in the firing line if I was scum by killing someone who tunnelled on me during the day?

I don’t know you.

[Apple Jack]

Yet I’ve seen scum go after people that have scum read them numerous times. People tend to downplay nka for some reason.

[Apple Jack]

That’s not a really good defense.

[Apple Jack]

If you’re innocent don’t worry about it. It’s a starting point for day 2. You are my biggest suspect so I’m starting there. We’ve got a lot of time and things can change but for now I like my vote.

[Apple Jack]

Town shouldn’t care how they look imo.

[Apple Jack]

Oh I missed that question. I’ve played on this site for 7 years. Played elsewhere before that at least 3/4 years.

[Apple Jack]

That’s a good vote also. Not sure where shea is but hopefully they will get a prod soon.

[Apple Jack]

A lot of people keep saying they "like me" for scum but no one has given any reasons why. If its because I formed led and pushed to completion a player who I thought was scum and was wrong, that seems pretty silly. That would be VERY aggressive play as scum, and though I'm capable of being very aggressive, I don't think it gives you any reason to suspect me.

More suspicious to me are the people who coasted on the wagon and the people who expressed reticence while doing nothing to stop it and then jumped on.

The issue I had is you went all in cause of a “scum slip”

[Apple Jack]

Who was that?

[Apple Jack]

My issue is you made a post saying it wa shard to scum read uc, a little later you decide to attack him and did so aggressively.

2 people had votes. Uc with 2 and wilky with 2.

Your read progression doesn’t make sense. If the scum team were say you and wilky (humor me) you put uc (town) over the threshold of 50% but it’s not enough and the reason is weak but if you oversell it that gives you the edge to take advantage of newer players who blindly put their faith in the Ic and why wouldn’t they. UC fucked up and his lynch was deserving.

You shouldn’t have gone all in on a scum slip when historically they almost never are and that wasn’t even a slip worthy of the hard push.

I need to re-read some things to see if you/wilky make sense but you don’t look good and you implying that you strongly pushing it should somehow give you less suspicion actually doesn’t sit well with me.

[Apple Jack]

VOTE: tsq
Looking over his iso this is definitely a better vote.

[Apple Jack]

You had 2 votes on you. Why the early claim?

Calls others stupid for scum reading him yet if he’s legit he didn’t use his action.

smh

[Apple Jack]

And he was the first to vote you. What’s opportunistic about that?

[Apple Jack]

I’m not scum and I’m not going to backoff just cause you claimed. Your bad attitude doesn’t read town. Especially town IC. Insulting people for scum reading you is setting a bad example

[Apple Jack]

because your reasons are idiotic, mostly.

So instead of taking time to explain how I’m wrong, you result to basically ad hom attacks?

[Apple Jack]

So now I'm scum because I am "setting a bad example?"

Huh, that still sounds like a shitty reason to me.

No regardless of your alignment you are setting a bad example and I’ll take that up with the newbie list mod post game.

[Apple Jack]

I wasn’t sure you were scum. I voted you to apply some pressure. Having 2 votes on you felt right. You completely cracked.

If nobody CCs you or claims another role I’ll unvote but for now I’m keeping the pressure on

[Apple Jack]

From the guide to being a good IC
“Rude, unhelpful, and/or inattentive ICs do not provide a good experience for players, new or old. Attacking someone is part of the game, but that should be tempered with civility.”

[Apple Jack]

I did explain.

1) It WAS a high percentage chance of being a scum slip. I will go to the fucking grave about that, even though it was wrong.
2) It would be hilariously aggressive for scum to come into a game, lock onto a player for a reason, and then push them until they're dead. That behavior is WAY more likely to come from town.
3) Your reason of "you said you couldn't say hes scum and then you said hes scum" is a complete misinterpretation of what I said. My comment was that it was hard to read anything into the nonsensical style of posts he does and his refusal to understand how a day 1 gets started. In fact, I thought that was PAINFULLY obvious from my post. Its hard not to see this from you as a deliberate misinterpretation.

The fact that you find it easier to call my responses ad hom instead of responding to them is your problem, not mine.

1. Site meta says scum slips almost NEVER actually happen and you should definitely know this Mr. 2006.
2. Not true. I’ve seen highly aggressive scum win games for it. Me, boonskiies, radiant cowbells, kuribo, etc. in a newbie game I bet the success rate of being aggressive scum is probably higher cause its easier to manipulate townies like you are with this one. Aggressive doesn’t mean town. It doesn’t even mean a higher probability of town. It just means aggressive.
3. Maybe I misrepresented you but I feel you should know better. A wise person posted this, and this is something many people on this site have been trying to get me to understand. “In a lot of games you can see people posting badly, whether it means lurking, saying really stupid things, being intellectually lazy about their engagement, or all sorts of other pretty transparently anti-town behaviors.
And, unfortunately, a lot of the time (though NOT always) really bad posting is done by townies instead of mafia. Sorting between “bad” and “scum” is one of the hardest things to do in the game, but it’s a tremendously important part of your development if you want to get good at scum-hunting.”


I feel you went after UC cause he was an easy target. He’s always an easy target. Hell I thought he could be scum also but the difference is I don’t know how to tell the difference and almost everyone else who’s experienced does and I’m willing to bet you do to. If I’m wrong I’ll be wrong but your reaction and attitude shift of just 2 votes reaks of emotional appeal and I’m content keeping my vote where it’s at.

Now you can save your insults cause if you insult me or anyone else (including the entire town) again I’ll report you to the list mod right away.

[Apple Jack]

I hate to break it to ya bud, but if you play on this site you'll be called stupid a few times.

It comes with the territory. Now, move your vote off of the claimed power role and vote quick who is clearly scum.

Or, you know, continue with this preposterous attack.

Not moving my vote until EVERYONE has posted

@everyone else. If you are a cop or jail keeper you know this is a fake claim. With no gurantee there is protection it will be up to you to decide if you want to counter claim today.

Pros - we lynch confirmed scum
Cons - you most likely die tonight.

I can’t tell you what’s right because I honestly don’t know. Personally I’d claim because I don’t value my own life in mafia games. I’d rather lynch 1 scum asap.

[Apple Jack]

If after EVERYONE has posted and no CCs, I’ll unvote.

I have nothing more to say to tsq. I don’t like his insulting attitude

[Apple Jack]

The one thing I am never regardless of my alignment is fake. I’m the most honest player in the history of mafiascum.

I have ignored players for far less.

Like let’s assume you are town here. Ignore your emotions. Do you REALLY think both scum would vote you in this scenario?

Your entire thought process, how you develop your reads, and your reactions to pressure don’t seem genuine to me.

Scum have to fake scum hunt and pushing a “scum slip” is a perfect example of fake scum hunting imo.

Now I’m on a short leash myself in newbie games so I can’t actually ignore you but I’m going to interact with you as little as possible.

[Apple Jack]

Not really. If his claim is fake somebody knows for sure he’s lying

[Apple Jack]

The point would be to out the real pr obviously.

[Apple Jack]

So trying to see what tsq thinks about scum slips. This game he hard tunnels on a player who supposedly scum slipped. Tsq was scum and obviously the person he was pushing was town.

Tsq was aggressive in this game also much like he was here so his excuses about being aggressive as scum don’t fly with me.

[Apple Jack]

Happy idiotic town has lost us a PR either to lynching me today or NK tonight.

so tsq if you scum read both quick and myself. how can "idiotic town" be responsible for losing of a PR? If somebody else said this you would be accusing them of "scum slipping" because this implies that quick and I are town.

Also you never answered my question about what was opportunistic about quick. Can you please do that?

I would also ask that you not call anyone's reasons for scum reading you (or anyone else for that matter) as idiotic when you have already been proven to have the most idiotic reason for scum reading somebody. (assuming you aren't scum which I still think you are)

Thank you

[Apple Jack]

Couple of things that I shouldn't even have to tell you since you are the freaking IC and so this is really more towards the newer players

1. NEVER claim with just 2 votes on you. Typically you should claim when somebody gives intent to hammer but claiming as soon as you get to L-1 (this means you are 1 vote away from being lynched) is also acceptable.

2. it is best to interact with the people who are voting you and try to explain why they are wrong. Not every person who scum reads you is going to be scum. If you feel somebody has given bad reasons for why you are scum you should totally explain yourself in an attempt to convince them they are wrong instead of just insulting them. You aren't going to change a person's opinion of you when all you do is respond with insults and appeals to emotions.

3. When you are under pressure please don't stop scum hunting. This is very hard to do because you are going to want to keep defending yourself but you can't let it be the only thing you are doing. In the end if you get lynched, you have hopefully have left a trail for others to follow and that the remaining town players will actually take some time to re-read your posts.

[Apple Jack]

Also lol "2 votes is quick."

2 votes is L-2 folks. I will absolutely claim at L-2.

Well if you are town you do something that almost nobody else does and it’s something you shouldn’t be teaching new players. Claiming prematurely is not necessary unless a player as exhausted all of their options which you clearly hadn’t.

You should always defend yourself first. You should let the remaining non voters chime in and decide if the reasons given are valid or not.

If you are town you have played sub-optimal and have potentially hurt town by claiming unnecessarily.

I still don’t believe the claim and I still don’t see you behaving as a townie should.

[Apple Jack]

Happy idiotic town has lost us a PR either to lynching me today or NK tonight.

so tsq if you scum read both quick and myself. how can "idiotic town" be responsible for losing of a PR? If somebody else said this you would be accusing them of "scum slipping" because this implies that quick and I are town.

Also you never answered my question about what was opportunistic about quick. Can you please do that?

I would also ask that you not call anyone's reasons for scum reading you (or anyone else for that matter) as idiotic when you have already been proven to have the most idiotic reason for scum reading somebody. (assuming you aren't scum which I still think you are)

Thank you

So you respond to 424 but not this one?

Btw your response to 424 I completely disagree with especially with you claiming my part about claiming is wrong. It lost certainly isn’t.

So if you don’t want to respond, I’ll just use your own logic

Tsq scum slipped in post 387. He knows quick and I are town. He’s definitely scum. Lynch him!!!

[Apple Jack]

instead of trying to find the scum

I’ve found scum. That’s you

[Apple Jack]

Yeah, but if you check my meta (as either alignment) you'll see that tunneling is not really a thing I do even when I have strong suspicions. It's only when I think its pretty much guaranteed. I would eat fried dogshit if UC is town in this game.

Btw I did this and as scum this is something YOU have done. I posted a link earlier. You did it over a “scum slip” just like this game.

So let’s just emulate your own play since you are so god damn awesome apparently.

I will eat fried dog shit if tsq isn’t scum.

[Apple Jack]

VOTE: derpy

Scum who is upset that his mislynch target is harder to lynch than he expected.

Quick is also scum too. Lets 1-2 them and win this game.

You don’t scare me.

You have ignored important questions and focused on non important things. No chance you are town and if I have to be lynched to prove it. So be it.

I already said I don’t care about my life in mafia games

[Apple Jack]

*looks around for any plausible counter claims*

K. Keep on not believing it, homie.

Has everyone posted yet? No

Get out of here.

[Apple Jack]

Aww chicken are you? Put your vote back on me.

[Apple Jack]

Answer my questions. Why is quick scum?

You keep avoiding that.

[Apple Jack]

Also, the fact that I was at L2 for a full day after the claim and was not hammered means that its likely at least one of DH and quick is scum just mathematically.

wrong. since you have been at L-2 Wilky and CS have not posted. quick and taiho have posted but neither of them have been online together AND we aren't in mylo so scum isn't going to quick hammer a PR because that would out both of them.

Like you have an awful habit of saying I'm avoiding doing things that I've already done.

oh really? I don't see where you have answered my questions about why quick is scum. I don't see you explaining what quick did that was opportunistic either.

I have other stuff I want to say but I have to go to a meeting.

[Apple Jack]

Putting this in spoilers for people who don't like walls.

Spoiler:

Making a post that assumes someone is town for no reason is not a slip? Lolk.

Its literally the definition of a slip. He slipped and made a post that shows he has alignment information.

tsq. You posted the above 2 posts. If you HONESTLY believe this, how do you explain the bolded part of the below quote? The bolded is definitely made with the assumption we are both town since we are the only ones voting you.

Shrug, if you guys want to be stupid thats fine by me.

Claim: tracker. missed my track last night because I thought I submitted it before I went out of town but I did not.

Happy idiotic town has lost us a PR either to lynching me today or NK tonight.

Have fun, guys.

now on to some other things.

You said this to UC

If you were town you'd be trying to defend yourself and/or trying to figure out who the scum is. You're not.

yet that basically sums up what you are doing now. I don't see an honest attempt to defend yourself. I don't see an honest attempt to figure out who scum is (calling the only 2 people voting you scum does not count)

and what about this

So me and uc are partners because I disagree with u on that wild slip theory
Cool
Do you need something? Some help to get out of the dumpster or?

Personal attacks, huh? Why don't you go find something to do in this game that actually might find scum? That would help me. I know thats been hard for you thus far, but please try.

So day 1 you had an issue with somebody personally attacking you, but you are perfectly fine personally attacking others?

Yeah, but if you check my meta (as either alignment) you'll see that tunneling is not really a thing I do even when I have strong suspicions

I found a game where you did the EXACT same thing. Tunneled on a townie for a "scum slip" and you did it as scum which would make what you are doing this game very similar to that one.

That would be VERY aggressive play as scum, and though I'm capable of being very aggressive, I don't think it gives you any reason to suspect me.

1. this is a pure WIFOM defense. The suspicion on you for pushing a "slip" that wasn't really a slip is completely justified.
2. since you have previously done this very thing as scum, I think this makes the reason to scum read you even MORE valid.

More suspicious to me are the people who coasted on the wagon and the people who expressed reticence while doing nothing to stop it and then jumped on.

See this is a good post from you. I wish you would have actually attempted to do this. This would have helped me get a better read on you but you never followed through on it. It's too late now.

How about instead of looking at the person on the wagon who started it and had a reason you look at the people who threw shade at that reason but still jumped on the wagon.

This is bad because

1. As I already covered, you didn't actually start the wagon on UC. He had 2 votes before you placed the 3rd vote on him
2. Even if you had started the wagon and "had a reason" this doesn't mean you are exempt from suspicion. Pretty sure everyone on the wagon "had a reason" for being on it.

tldr - tsq is my top scum read and i'm sticking with my vote. I don't care if he has claimed a PR, claiming a PR doesn't mean he actually IS a PR.

[Apple Jack]

you are certainly free to do that.

[Apple Jack]

Also, its hard to get into without talking about ongoing games, but I'm willing to give derpy a pass for now, especially since he's willing to post reads and vote at deadline.

please tell me the name of the alt that you are playing under that gives you some sort of knowledge about my play.

Thank you

[Apple Jack]

Nah. That post says you are giving me a pass due to an ongoing game. Out your alt please.

[Apple Jack]

DH should know we don't lynch shea if there is no CC.

[Apple Jack]

1. Because you don’t know me well enough to make that statement. The only day I back off role claims is day 1. The rest of the days I let the play determine if a person is legit or not.

2. lack of a a cc doesn’t mean he’s telling the truth.

[Apple Jack]

I don’t think anyone was doing that or getting close to that.

[Apple Jack]

Well tbh I’m not really worried about what you like. I’m scum reading him and he certainly hasn’t played townie like and we still have some people who hasn’t posted yet so. Once everyone has posted and there is no cc MAYBE I’ll back off but he doesn’t get a few ride just because he claimed.

[Apple Jack]

So who do you think is scum now you’ve backed off tsq?

[Apple Jack]

The inactivity is going to kill this game

[Apple Jack]

Tsq is literally playing like a newb. Which is weird given he’s been on site 4 years longer than I have and he’s supposed to be the IC

[Apple Jack]

Ok

[Apple Jack]

I will have a case up against quick at some point.

Would be nice since I’ve been trying to get that from you for a while now.

[Apple Jack]

You and wilky remain my top scum reads.

[Apple Jack]

I explained earlier why I think you are partners. You decided to insult my reasons remember?

I’ll have to re-evaluate if you end up being town.

[Apple Jack]

Prodding taiho

What about Cs?

[Apple Jack]

I realize cs is v/la but since he’s v/la until NEXT WEEK he needs to attempt to post more. It’s not fair to have a basically inactive slot.

[Apple Jack]

I got prodded...

@Derpy what do you thing about gameplay?

I don’t think anything about gameplay atm.

[Apple Jack]

this is the problem with not just mafiascum but mafia sites everywhere. players just don't care anymore. I am not even sure why they sign up if they don't want to play

[Apple Jack]

Fucking tsq. I really hope somebody is just waiting cause I honestly can’t see how he can be town after all his nonsense

UNVOTE:

[Apple Jack]

The night will determine tsq's alignment.

And Derpy that was directed at you.
There is no further reason for us to delve on TSQ. We are not going to know if he is lying or not unless we lynch him and given the fact there has been no cc lynching him is just not happening.

Well considering I unvoted him that was kind of unnecessary

[Apple Jack]

I have never been a fan of list reads but at least you take the time to explain your reads. That’s a little better.

[Apple Jack]

I have to reread some things with the mindset tsq is town. Once I do that I should have different reads.

I will say if tsq is town, I don’t like quick anymore but I still haven’t seen tsq give any actual reasons for him and he (tsq) still never answered my questions.

[Apple Jack]

Do you honestly think scum would hammer like that though? If scum want to blend in, how would he do that by hammering like that?

[Apple Jack]

Ugh

[Apple Jack]

Or maybe explain why wilky is scum cause nobody should blindly sheep anyone.

[Apple Jack]

I un-voted cause I need re-read. My scum team was dependent on your slot being scum and since nobody has cc'd your predecessor I was forced to unvote. I still don't fully trust your slot.

[Apple Jack]

I will do my re-read probably Wednesday

[Apple Jack]

lmk when you actually make one and I'll tell you.

[Apple Jack]

I mean you didn't really show your work or anything. I already mentioned the part about NK makes wilky look bad. It's why I am suspicious of your slot actually. My mind has scum as you/wilky but nobody cc'd your cop claim so here we are...

the VCA also points to your slot being scum, so if you are town then I don't really know how it points to wilky being scum.

I am a believer in posts they made. If you want to show me some posts wilky made that makes you so sure he is scum, i'd love to read them.

[Apple Jack]

I agree, I wasn't asked to though, nor did I refuse to do so.
So at worst what we have is you wanting information, not asking for it, and then complaining about what I'm doing.

Um. You asked me to respond to a case you didn’t make.

My response back to you was my way of asking for information since I can’t respond to something that hasn’t been made.

You tried to blabber your way through a response and I followed it up with asking for specifics.

Don’t try to treat me like an idiot cause you are playing poorly.

[Apple Jack]

I would suggest that if you presume I'm town,

I don’t presume you are town. So the rest of this part is irrelevant

[Apple Jack]

I've basically read no posts by them, it's why I cited VCA and NK analysis as my case.

So basically you are promising somebody will flip scum without actually doing any work.

Yeah I don’t care if there is no cc.

VOTE: Thor

Impossible 2 separate players play this bad. It’s scum.

[Apple Jack]

Derpy what does VCA mean?

Ask the IC

[Apple Jack]

Are you always this awkward then? I asked you cause it was you that said it...

1. Yes I am.
2. Vca = vote count analysis.

[Apple Jack]

I’m not moving my vote. Y’all can do what you want but I’ve seen scummy play from 2 people in the same slot and that’s not coincidence to me.

[Apple Jack]

And I’m not getting in a back and forth with Thor either. It won’t do this game any good so any attempts he makes to slander me are just that.

[Apple Jack]

Ugh

What's this about?

I’m not a fan of scum reads replacing out. I’m not a fan of who his replacement is.

[Apple Jack]

Derpy i like you
but voting thor is dumb
place your vote on someone that is actually getting lynched

Maybe when I have time to re-read but based off the misreps tbor made I don’t see any reason why I should. It’s fine if nobody else votes him. Y’all vote who you think is scum and I’ll vote who I think is scum.

[Apple Jack]

DH looks worse than they did before IMO.

So vote me

[Apple Jack]

Regardless of alignment I play true to myself. I just don’t believe claims outright. The play ALWAYS decides my vote.

The lack of cc can be explained so it doesn’t mean he’s guaranteed town.

[Apple Jack]

Not really. There is still a chance somebody isn’t cc’ing

Wednesday I’ll read up but for now I just can’t ignore his scummy misreps and how he promised somebody who’s posts he hasn’t even read is going to flip scum.

I’ll ignore his lie about day cop but generally speaking I hate liars but this was clearly a joke.

[Apple Jack]

I want to see a case from thor. If he’s not going to make one nobody should shed him.

I want evidence he’s read the game and I want what I asked about wilky. I don’t want a lame excuse like he gave.

[Apple Jack]

You refuse to state your reasoning on me, but find it scummy that you think I haven't?

I stated my reasons for both your predecessor AND you actually.

I gave you what you asked for about Wilky - would you like a link?
viewtopic.php?p=9710064#p9710064

Pretty sure I asked this
“If you want to show me some posts wilky made that makes you so sure he is scum, i'd love to read them.”
And you said you didn’t read his posts or something so you haven’t given me what I asked for.

Please describe the misrep you think I made.

I mean you didn't really show your work or anything.

I agree, I wasn't asked to though

But I did

Or maybe explain why wilky is scum cause nobody should blindly sheep anyone.

Saying “wagon analysis and Nk “ is a reason, not an explanation.

“ex·pla·na·tion
ˌekspləˈnāSH(ə)n/Submit
noun
a statement or account that makes something clear”

I wasn’t left with a clear understanding. That’s why I asked you to show your work.

Breath, take like 12 hours away, and come back with the brain clicking a little sharper.

Nah I’m good. I’m not letting you attempt to power lynch somebody and risk having this game be mylo/lylo tomorrow.

People getting lynched require cases with some sort of detail from everyone.

[Apple Jack]

Your case on me is a joke.

At least I made one. I don’t really care about your opinion of it.

The fact is if your slot is town, you both have set bad examples for new players.

[Apple Jack]

I don’t like quick. He rubs me the wrong way and I don’t feel comfortable saying he’s town. I’m now figuring out what tsq was trying to do. He tried to save wilky and wanted to lynch quick. You are doing the opposite.

I don’t put bussing past you.

[Apple Jack]

Yea

[Apple Jack]

If scum are tsq/wilky lynching you puts town in great shape.

[Apple Jack]

I know

[Apple Jack]

Just vote wilky

While we are at it. Please give me your case on wilky.

[Apple Jack]

I explained my case on Wilky

no you didn't. You said NK and VCA. That's it. you didn't show your work on why the VCA points to ONLY wilky. I also asked you to provide me additional things because anyone who has played mafia as long as you and I have, should know that NK and VCA isn't enough and it isn't even always reliable.

I will ask again - how am I playing badly, and also why does that make me scum?

how about your refusal to explain your case in detail with posts from wilky that make him look bad? you promised he is scum without even reading his posts (your own admission)

regardless of alignment it is bad play and your refusal to provide me the information I have asked for multiple times supports a scum read. Town should be transparent as possible and I don't feel like you have been.

I advocate logic

That's funny because i'd expect somebody who advocates it to you know, actually use it? I don't feel you have used logic at all.

I feel like at this point if you are actually town (doubtful) you are wasting your time with me. You clearly aren't going to give me what I have asked for multiple times and because of that I am not even going to consider the possibility that I could just be wrong about you. I feel like if you were town, you'd want to try to convince people instead of arguing with them. you are arguing with me, not trying to convince me.

Until you show me your work that points to wilky as 100% scum on the VCA, show me your work on why the NK ONLY points to wilky being scum, and show me posts that wilky has made that implicate him as scum you words are lost on me.

[Apple Jack]

this is so bizarre. I came in to this day scum reading wilky and now i am forced to defend his scummy ass just cause the claimed cop refuses to provide a proper case.

am I in the twilight zone or something?

[Apple Jack]

Not going get involve myself in a back and forth argument with Thor anymore.

From my POV he isn’t guaranteed to be town, even without a CC

[Apple Jack]

the fact that you know what I want from you but won't because you are hung up on semantics and minor details is just dumb. I feel bad for the new players in here who have to see not 1 but 2 terrible ICs.

Until you show me your work that points to wilky as scum on the VCA, show me your work on why the NK points to wilky being scum, and show me posts that wilky has made that implicate him as scum you words are lost on me.

as long as you refuse to properly respond to the above post in a way that meets MY expectations. I am not going to engage in you and your blatant misreps and lies and I certainly am not going to remove my vote.

[Apple Jack]

All right. So if anyone else needs anything from me lmk. Thor isn’t going to give me what I’ve asked so I’m done with him.

[Apple Jack]

Derpy is basically advocating the same thing, saying that tsq and I are playing so poorly we must be scum.

Btw this is a lie. Playing poorly isn’t why I was scum reading tsq.

[Apple Jack]

I already explained why I was scum reading tsq. That never changed when I unvoted. The reason for my scum read in previously posted in my iso.

I’m continuing to scum read Thor cause he has blatantly misreprepped me and he has refused multiple times to show me his work

[Apple Jack]

That's tin foily at best. Plus for you making pre-flip associations:

VOTE: Derpy Hooves

Let's lynch this Scum that shows no common sense.

Nah it’s not and since when is preflip associations bad? As long as you revaluate after they are perfectly fine.

But please. Lynch me and when I flip town lynch the guy who once hasn’t corrected my continual mistakes that he’s the cop when his predecessor claimed tracker.

[Apple Jack]

I kept referring to him as a cop. He never corrected me. That’s weird since he’s not a cop

[Apple Jack]

518 & 572

I did that to see if he would correct me and confirm what tsq claimed.

[Apple Jack]

That’s not really addressing the mistake. It’s discrediting my entire post.

[Apple Jack]

Just cause I didn’t vote d1, doesn’t mean I wasn’t playing the game.

I showed that scum tsq pushes “scum slips”
Majorit of people on site know that “scum slip” claims are almost always bullshit and the ones that aren’t bullshit aren’t ones where somebody called somebody town.
I also showed that if tsq is actually town and actually believes in his definition of the scum slip UC did, tsq is guilty of the same one. M
Tsq when pressured instead of defending his posts, resorted to just personally attacking people (which he took objection to day 1 when gameplay responded to tsq with a personal attack)

Tsq tried to say he shouldn’t be scum read for his push on Uc
Tsq refused go substantiate his claims that you and I were scum and when he said he would finally provide reasons he lurked out.
(Interesting his replacement won’t substantiate his claims either. Coincidence? Not likely.)

So vote me if you want. Lynch me even. He’s scum. There are other reasons for a lack of CC. The claim is the ONLY thing that makes him look town and for me the claim isn’t enough with so much damning evidence

[Apple Jack]

Well I’m scum

[Apple Jack]

That’s fine. Now go convince others to lynch me. In the meantime I’m maintaining that Thor is still scum.

[Apple Jack]

This game is so frustrating. We’ve got 2 players who aren’t even playing. One who won’t make a case when asked and is basically only town read due to a Pr claim yet doesn’t bother correcting me when I call him the wrong one which is highly suspect. One who’s hiding under an alt acting like he doesn’t know how to play, one who is probably scum and hasn’t defended himself wel and isn’t scum hunting well, and myself who is single handily the person trying their hardest to win. Idk why I care so much when it’s clear nobody else does.

I’ll probably switch to wilky at some point but the longer Thor refuses to make a proper case like I asked, the less likely I want to do anything that supports him.

[Apple Jack]

Oh did I miss your vca? I didn’t see anything with all the pretty colors that people usually do so can you please link it for me? If you didn’t post something like that, you didn’t do a proper vca. EVERYONE who does vca does that.
The part about the Nk doesn’t matter as much cause I came to that conclusion before you even replaced in. Something your predecessor wasn’t even considering.
Did I miss the posts wilky make that make him the most likely scum? Can you link it?

Also earlier I thought you said you promise he was scum. You actually said you promise he isn’t scum. What happened there?

Why didn’t you correct me when I called you cop twice when you aren’t the cop?

[Apple Jack]

Until you give me what I’ve been asking for, I’m not giving you what you want. I asked first.

[Apple Jack]

I just checked. No cool color coded vca has been posted neither has posts from day 1 that wilky made. so clearly you lied. You haven’t given me what I’ve asked for.

[Apple Jack]

I can’t deal with you anymore. You are being intentionally dense and denying me information to make an informed decision. I’ll just assume your reason is scum motivated.

I’ll see whoever is still around on day 3.

Later.

[Apple Jack]

Still don’t see the VCA

Still don’t see posts wilky made day 1 with explanation.

You haven’t given me jack shit.

[Apple Jack]

I'll agree that I didn't post anything with color coding.

See you said this which means you haven’t posted a proper VCA.

[Apple Jack]

That is true.

And until you do this and post a proper vca you can stop talking to me please.

[Apple Jack]

You also never posted color coded stuff for your claim that the VCA clear WIlky

Bye I’m pretty sure I’ve never said the vca clears anyone especially wilky. More lies

[Apple Jack]

That’s the generally accepted method of VCA. It’s probably the only kind I’ve ever seen in my 7 years on this site.

There could be anywhere from 0 to 2 scum on that wagon. Aside from just drawing a number out of a hat (which is very well what you could have done) there is nothing on the vote counts that I see that point to anyone definitely being scum.

[Apple Jack]

Your predecessor played like scum. Freaked out and fake claimed. Denied town info and when he said he would finally post it he replaced out. I’m not going excuse scummy play because of a fake claim.

Your play hasn’t done anything to make me doubt my scum read on your slot so we are at a stalemate it seems.

[Apple Jack]

Prod dodge
might not get around to reading the last few page so a tldr would be nice

Basically me asking for info from Thor and Thor not giving what I’m asking for.

Thor wants people to sheep him
Thor votes quick
Quick votes me
Thor defends me which is weird.

That’s probably it

[Apple Jack]

Taiho/cs/game all need more content.

[Apple Jack]

But the entire concept of VCA (which you appear to generally understand) tends to make logical law of average presumptions on scum placement.
Which would give the wagon very high odds of at least 1 scum.

I wouldn’t say high odds. Uc was scummy so it’s very likely it is all town. It could be one scum and I think that’s you. If it’s 2 scum it’s you and wilky probably as that’s the only pairing that makes sense.

I can’t see scum wilky paired with anyone else.

It’s posisble scum is in the lurkers. But who knows. It would basically just be a policy lynch.

I can’t imag you’ve asked anything of me that’s actually important so consolidate all
Your questions and I’ll decide if any are important or not.

I haven’t seen anything from you that makes me think you are town so I am not unvoting you unless we get to deadline and my vote is needed to prevent a NL

[Apple Jack]

Why not?

Cause I don’t see anyone who tried to prevent his lynch outside of tsq. Tsq made up a scum slip accusation to push a mislynch

[Apple Jack]

The lynch didn't go through though.
So clearly some people either supported it in word only and no vote, or some people didn't support it in word or vote.
Why are none of those slots potential scumbuddies?

The people who supported it are both dead. One was the counter to wilky and the other was the NK.

That’s why wilky/tsq make the MOST sense. If wilky were town I feel like there would have been more votes for him.

[Apple Jack]

The people who supported it are both dead. One was the counter to wilky and the other was the NK.

and had you ACTUALLY done a proper VCA YOU would have known that...

[Apple Jack]

Prodding taiho.
This would be CSBlastoise's fourth prod in two day phases, so he is being force-replaced for inactivity.

thank you

[Apple Jack]

I didn’t clear him but usually the easiest solution is the right one this is the easiest and most obvious one.

Tsq trying to imply he as scum wouldn’t aggressively push like he did but I found an example where he as scum did exactly that. Hard pushed a “scum slip”.

It’s generally accepted on this site that “scum slips” aren’t ever true scum slips. I’m not willing to believe he didn’t know that and also didn’t believe it.

[Apple Jack]

why do you clear him?

your turn.

how do you clear him?

and don't give me any bs cause right now you are scum reading wilky/quick

[Apple Jack]

if I unvote thor I am voting you.

as I said lack of a cc can be explained.

[Apple Jack]

No it isn’t but you have to learn that not every claim is going to be legit and just because there isn’t a cc, they still might not be telling the truth.

What if this setup has no tracker? No cc is going to happen.
What if actual role wants to stay quiet so they can clear more people? That’s an acceptable strategy as well.

Whatever. This game isn’t worth my aggravation.

VOTE: wilky

[Apple Jack]

Yes one of them could cc bit like I said what if they want to live longer to catch more scum?

Let’s say this setup is 2 across. Mafia claims tracker to force a cop to claim and boom cop is blocked and now they render cop useless.

I don’t know much about newbie games but I know mafia in general and I’ve seen scum fake claim and get lynched despite a cc. It’s something people have to consider. Giving Thor/tsq a town read JUST cause the claim is teaching bad habits when you move out of the newbie que. at least force them to explain themselves even if he is legit. Tsq replaces out denying us info. Thor is using semantics to deny us info.

That is NOT ok

[Apple Jack]

I get nobody is going to lynch him today. But people shouldn’t be rolling over and sheeping him either.

[Apple Jack]

If you ever saw a proper VCA. You’d know he’s not done one and he certainly isn’t willing to do one.

But you don’t seem to care too much so I’m not going to anymore. I’ll let him bus you.

[Apple Jack]

This thread is old but the general narrative is VCAs work.

Read the first post. That explains how a proper VCA is supposed to go down. Thor saying it isn’t like he did earlier is direct contradiction to what is generally accepted/expected when somebody does vote count analysis.

He’s misleading people as the IC which isn’t allowed when it comes to playing the game and mafia theory.

[Apple Jack]

Forgot the link - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15242

[Apple Jack]

Or this thread. Mastin is the best mind on site - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=16540

[Apple Jack]

The self defense has transitioned to flailing, how nice

[Apple Jack]

Not sure who you're asking about as the only person I've called town so far is you.

No no. You don’t get off that easy.

VOTE: thor

I never said I cleared him yet you asked me like I had somehow.

So by that logic. Since he’s not in your scum pile you must have cleared him.

Answer the question.

[Apple Jack]

Don't be an idiot - I asked why you cleared him as a Wilky partner - something you *had* claimed.
Get out of here with your utter derp, Derp.

No you are the idiot cause I already explained how I went with the most obvious partner situation and explained how I got there.

I’m sure you are familiar with Occam’s razor? Using that. Tsq/wilky slam dunk scum team.

I explained that. Asking me how I cleared anyone else when you already know the answer is stupid.

So you think wilky/quick is scum. That’s what you have been pushing

HOW DID YOU ELIMINATE CS AS A PARTNER TO WILKY.

Until you answer that AND do a proper VC AND quote all the scummy posts wilky made day 1 like I’ve been asking you.

I’m not changing. I’m also not going to answer another one of your questions. You keep denying town information.

1. As an Ic that’s just terrible example
2. If you are town you are hurting town
3. If you are scum, it’s intentional and I’m not letting you off the hook.

Answer me or stop interacting with me. I’m never voting with you or for anyone you want cause imo you are scum who’s predecessor fake claimed tracker.

[Apple Jack]

Ok pointing to any post made by tsq isn’t going to work. The rest of that stuff isn’t really AI

Also explain that process of elimination for me. Show your work.

[Apple Jack]

Also explain that process of elimination for me. Show your work.

This.

You want it from him but don’t support me when I ask Thor. Why?

[Apple Jack]

just because you scumread tsq doesn't mean you have to disregard all of his reasoning

Yes I can. Especially considering how bad is scum slip shit was.

But I’ll humor you and read that post.

[Apple Jack]

Most notably, he's skating. This might be a difference in philosophy about mafia, but most of what I look for in the early game is who is playing the game and who is attempting to hide in randomness.

Problem with this is site meta has shifted dramatically in the past few years. Town I general has stopped playing the game. I have my own theories behind that. Town is dumbing down their town games so they can play better as scum. It’s difficult to play a clean scum game. Fake scum hunting is hard. If you establish a meta of being useless town and abusing the v/la process, you can look better when scum.

His post 19, where I originally voted him, was a chance to pressure derpyhooves which he didn't take.

I don’t even understand this. It’s bad logic. I’ve learned people don’t always do what you want them to. In fact people almost never do what I expect them to.

I just have found no reason to revise this early read. Almost all of the things that game play posts have been very minimal in terms of progressing the game. He's cast shallow aspersions on some of the arguments of other players. He hasn't really put pressure anywhere, and his arguments haven't seemed designed to find scum. I'm pretty happy leaving my vote parked here.

This is pretty bad also. Vote parking somebody for lurking is just a policy lynch. Sadly lurking isn’t AI. It used to but hasn’t been for at least 5 years.

Like I’m completely fine pressuring lurkers. But to use that as AI is unfortunately not reliable anymore.